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News announcements and other topics => News => Topic started by: syairchairun on November 09, 2014, 03:05:00 PM

Title: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: syairchairun on November 09, 2014, 03:05:00 PM
Hai, after i post myvideo about generator no effect lenz law, Now I will show U it can selfrunning, only use myhand to start,
and ths video i will show short coil and no efect lenzlaw, and I will show next mygenerator 10kva its same project, differnt only its has only 4pole run in 1500rpm toget 50hz, its same with mygenrtor 5kva, in mygnrtor 5kva i use 40pole stator coil in wire pararel,220v.0.5A 50hz percoil in only 100-120 rpm, but its very expensve i use 162 prmnen mgnet and it gve very high cogng when start.

In next plan mygenrtr 10kva i dnt use prmnen mgnet, only elctromgnetc ( 80v.4A exciter), and i dnt modfication coil in stator its original, and i use coupling 1 by 1 of motor and gnerator no use pulley or gearbox, they are expnsve,

And i will show the animation how to it work,

Next video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWU12Db_MY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWU12Db_MY)

I think same it wth device James W german, But it linear flux magnetic but in Ramadan device is circular flux magnetic..

The key is magnet and stator coil not spining or rotate and rotr made by softiron rotate between them..

Thank's..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 09, 2014, 04:11:03 PM
It's nice to know that the fate of the World is in such good hands.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: mscoffman on November 09, 2014, 07:39:39 PM
syairchairun,

My suggestion is to build 1.5KW self running motor generators if you can, as these can be configured in a modular
way. 1.5KW running continuously and buffered is sufficient for one size to supply most households with the electricity
required in the US.

You should avoid building larger generators as they would not run continuously, but waste a tremendous
amount of electrical energy and waste heat starting up. Multiple hundred KW generators are useless
to the average person, take up lots of space and can't be moved easily, and would need huge permanent
magnets that cannot easily be completely shielded. Folks that need these size generators, already
have them.

By selling these into the correct markets you can most easily produce a self funding industry.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 09, 2014, 08:15:13 PM
Best ever technology.

Breakthrough for overunity.

How expensive is your motor to make ?

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 09, 2014, 10:55:09 PM
But be very very careful that you don't drop one on your foot.

 :-[
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on November 09, 2014, 11:44:11 PM
Impressive I like it.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 10, 2014, 12:36:14 AM
Without some control electronics it sure seems the induction motor running the generator would not reach the same RPM every time it was started.
The motor would run at whatever frequency the generator was supplying and if it was slow, the motor would be slow. If it were started faster then the motor would run faster.
Looks like it's running on grid power to me.
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on November 10, 2014, 02:08:44 AM
I wished you had filmed when you disassembled your gen.
Or you could film the assembly.
Thank You

and no white coat huh
its gotta have a white coat to work everyone knows that
lol
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on November 10, 2014, 04:44:41 AM
Impressive I like it.
You got this one to Dave?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: syairchairun on November 10, 2014, 04:49:55 AM
At syairchairun ,

The drawings in your first video doesn't really match your dismantle generator in your second video    :(
You stated no moving coils and magnets but that is what is moving in your animation    :(
You wrote that you use electro magnets but they need some DC/AC juice so where's the current coming from?    :(
If it an self induced electro magnet from the generators coils it won't do a lot(more like nothing) at those low rpm    :(

Lot of sad faces    ;D but the drawings has given me an idea on how to improve(maybe) the design output seen in the video from the german person so i do wanna thank you for the extra brain stimulants    ;)

Cheers

1. It's same no dfrent only first gen use prmnen mgnet,
2. Only soft iron rotating in middle coil out and induction coil.
3. Current will come from induction iron near stator coil, in stator any 2 coil ( 1 main coil , 2 exciter coil ), U can study in generator convensional 1500rpm ( 1-10kva ), there no magnet, only full iron, but when rotating exciter coil any voltage, and see QEG where's the flux coming from.? I think from earth magnet, when u have strong magnet neody only space 2m your compass cnnt drection to mgnet, but wherever you are your compass alws drection to earth magnet, any flux magnet whereever you are.
4. In mynext gnertor 10kva, it cannont stat only myhand, bcuse its running in 1500rpm, so use battery, or spiral spring ( see your toy many made in china use it ).
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 10, 2014, 07:02:35 AM
Magnificent and simple.

Questions

1: What is material of rotating hub , iron tube ... ? Specific alloy needed?
2: What material is rotating magnet
3: What is space, clearance, between rotor ( not rotating) and stator. 2 mm ? 1 mm? Does it matter for precision ?

thx you for your gift.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gyulasun on November 10, 2014, 09:56:21 AM
Hi syairchairun,

You wrote two different email addresses in your two videos and none of them works, at least a member, Chet here reported delivery failure for both:

http://www.overunity.com/15071/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf/msg422993/#msg422993
 
This is what you wrote in first video as your email :      syairalamsyarazab@yahoo.co.id 

And this is what you wrote under your second video: syairalamsyahrazab@yahoo.co.id 

So is there a valid email address for you?

Gyula
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: syairchairun on November 10, 2014, 11:36:26 AM
Magnificent and simple.

Questions

1: What is material of rotating hub , iron tube ... ? Specific alloy needed?
2: What material is rotating magnet
3: What is space, clearance, between rotor ( not rotating) and stator. 2 mm ? 1 mm? Does it matter for precision ?

thx you for your gift.

1. Soft iron plate 0.5mm, iron tube only holder to easy when i cutting, and must be open when assmbly wth holder alumnium, holder must isoltor mterial, and holder must be connected by shaft output, so shaft any 2 ( 1 shaft for rotor spin and 2 shaft for magnet or elctromagnet ), and any bearing to join them.
2. magnet not spin.
3. I use 0.5mm.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: syairchairun on November 10, 2014, 11:37:28 AM
Hi syairchairun,

You wrote two different email addresses in your two videos and none of them works, at least a member, Chet here reported delivery failure for both:

http://www.overunity.com/15071/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf/msg422993/#msg422993
 
This is what you wrote in first video as your email :      syairalamsyarazab@yahoo.co.id 

And this is what you wrote under your second video: syairalamsyahrazab@yahoo.co.id 

So is there a valid email address for you?

Gyula


Sory, my email ; syairalamsyahrazab@yahoo.co.id ..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on November 10, 2014, 11:46:29 AM
How do the inner magnets stay stationary and the shaft rotate
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on November 10, 2014, 12:39:59 PM
So is he showing the generator that he's building and not the one already built.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWU12Db_MY
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on November 10, 2014, 01:06:52 PM
Hey Er
 Im getting my ducks in a row, I have a few gens I can modify
I just didnt get his setup, I thought he was showing the running gen broke down.
Just to clarify is this the concept
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on November 10, 2014, 01:36:59 PM
Okay well that was alot of help
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Magluvin on November 10, 2014, 02:04:58 PM
Hmm, this is becoming very interesting now isnt it.   ;D

Thanks Syair and Er for confirmation of concept.

Mags
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on November 10, 2014, 02:22:13 PM
syairchairun (http://www.overunity.com/profile/syairchairun.102722/)
I have tried all Emails you left here and I am having no Luck
can you send your contact to me ChetKremens@Gmail.com


Respectfully
Chet
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: georgio78 on November 10, 2014, 02:33:54 PM
Hello Syair thank you for your posts truly amazing and genuine trying to wrap my head around the design can you please make a video of you dismantling the blue gen used in your video and also the cad drawings both the paper on first video and the second if its not asking too much lol and i also having no luck getting through your emails please reply back to georgio148@hotmail.com kind regards George!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on November 10, 2014, 02:53:50 PM
Ok sorry someone had posted this vid on the other thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoWMFDDL1AU
different concept.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: poynt99 on November 10, 2014, 03:24:48 PM
Er,

What as you see it, is the fundamental principle at work here?

Thanks.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Kator01 on November 10, 2014, 03:47:49 PM
concerning James W.German:

http://u2.lege.net/newebmasters.com__freeenergy/external_links_from_theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/ElectromagneticDev/olafberens/olaf.htm (http://u2.lege.net/newebmasters.com__freeenergy/external_links_from_theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/ElectromagneticDev/olafberens/olaf.htm)

Kator01
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lasersaber on November 10, 2014, 04:14:34 PM
@syairchairun (http://www.overunity.com/profile/syairchairun.102722/)


Thanks for sharing your videos.  I have added notes to your image.  Can you tell me if this is correct?


Best regards,
LS
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: paijo on November 10, 2014, 05:23:17 PM
hello everyone,
here in indonesia since new president was elected new hopes arise,hopely someone on top who have heart listen .here is another type of efficient/cheap/free/overun generator.
1. interview and demo ,senior journalist with the inventor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B23joN2ckM4

2. demo with goverment people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B23joN2ckM4

this forum link talk about the device
http://www.kaskus.co.id/thread/54111597c2cb1714498b456c/pertama-di-dunia-solusi-energi-generator-tanpa-bbm-buatan-putra-bangsa-indonesia/

inventor twitter
https://twitter.com/dickyzainal

andyou if look closely,guees what? it's similar with meissner  oscillator ?. no?
@ mod
would you please take this post to proper place.thank you
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Magluvin on November 10, 2014, 06:36:23 PM
@syairchairun (http://www.overunity.com/profile/syairchairun.102722/)


Thanks for sharing your videos.  I have added notes to your image.  Can you tell me if this is correct?


Best regards,
LS

I can smell Laser cooking up a replication. ;) ;D   It is a very interesting concept, that apparently has been around for a while, just not well known.

Mags
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 10, 2014, 07:09:19 PM
image question
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on November 10, 2014, 07:25:47 PM
I invited more Eyes [and helping hands]


http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/19851-topic-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/19851-topic-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning.html)

@syairchairun (http://www.overunity.com/profile/syairchairun.102722/)
I would be more than happy to speak with you
with the only purpose being to help expedite a replication here.[and elsewhere]


 
respectfully,
ChetKremens@gmail.com
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 11, 2014, 12:46:29 AM
If you watch the video very carefully, it looks like the generator power is simply operating a relay to supply grid power.
Especially the turn off delay. The generator seems to be fully stopped and it output is still running.
Probably converting the output to dc and filtering with a cap which increases the relay dropout delay.
 
I hope I'm wrong but it looks a bit odd! (video 1)
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Marsing on November 11, 2014, 01:24:28 AM
If you watch the video very carefully, it looks like the generator power is simply operating a relay to supply grid power.
Especially the turn off delay. The generator seems to be fully stopped and it output is still running.
Probably converting the output to dc and filtering with a cap which increases the relay dropout delay.
 
I hope I'm wrong but it looks a bit odd! (video 1)


i don't really understand your intent,

if you have ever playede with machinery it will always behave like that,
grinder or drill machine will rotate for a short period after you stop supplying power from the grid, if you turn your car off immediately after reaching certain speed, your car will still run a while.
what do you think of inertia ? 

why don't you try make a replication ,  for simple approach,  FAN FROM CPU CAN BE MODIFIED.
..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Freezer on November 11, 2014, 01:44:07 AM
why don't you try make a replication ,  for simple approach,  FAN FROM CPU CAN BE MODIFIED.

Is there a schematic or drawing?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 11, 2014, 01:53:23 AM

i don't really understand your intent,

if you have ever playede with machinery it will always behave like that,
grinder or drill machine will rotate for a short period after you stop supplying power from the grid, if you turn your car off immediately after reaching certain speed, your car will still run a while.
what do you think of inertia ? 

why don't you try make a replication ,  for simple approach,  FAN FROM CPU CAN BE MODIFIED.
..

I agree, but when you stop the power to something it starts to slow instantly and you can hear it and see it.
If you watch the video you will see full power for a long time even when the generator is fully stopped, then you can hear it suddenly start to slow moments later when the power actually stops.
 
Like I said, I hope I'm wrong and it's just some video lag.
But it does look suspicious.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Magluvin on November 11, 2014, 01:54:00 AM
What I think is the 4 coils on the outer case are stationary, the magnets are stationary but between the coils and mags are the spinning iron sections. Like an iron tube with rectangular portions cut out of the sides(not sure of that config, 4 openings, 8, 16?) and as the tube rotates the tube opens and closes the mag field from inducing the coil. So only the tube spins and the drag cant increase with more current flow due to the coils field in opposition to the mag field. So is there a reduction in cogging as the output is loaded heavier?

What clues me in about the pics/drawings, for the coils to be stationary, then the mags also stationary(mounted to end plates?) then the axle/shaft has the tube mounted from the middle of the shaft in the middle of the motor/gen casing, being it looks like there are 2 sets of mags and stators, one set on either end held by the casing and end plates. Otherwise how could the mags be stationary while inside the tube connected to shaft?  Could be done another way but difficulty would be increased. This way the tube is mounted to the shaft at the tubes center rather than the end of the tube and the other end of the motor casing holds the other stuff. Tube would have to be very secure and balanced/centered with only one end held by the shaft.




Mags
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Magluvin on November 11, 2014, 01:57:22 AM

I agree, but when you stop the power to something it starts to slow instantly and you can hear it and see it.
If you watch the video you will see full power for a long time even when the generator is fully stopped, then you can hear it suddenly start to slow moments later when the power actually stops.
 
Like I said, I hope I'm wrong and it's just some video lag.
But it does look suspicious.

The vid could have a lag in sound vs video. I agree to always have suspicions, but until they have strong merit, we will just have to see how it pans out. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 11, 2014, 02:12:38 AM
What I think is the 4 coils on the outer case are stationary, the magnets are stationary but between the coils and mags are the spinning iron sections. Like an iron tube with rectangular portions cut out of the sides(not sure of that config, 4 openings, 8, 16?) and as the tube rotates the tube opens and closes the mag field from inducing the coil. So only the tube spins and the drag cant increase with more current flow due to the coils field in opposition to the mag field. So is there a reduction in cogging as the output is loaded heavier?

What clues me in about the pics/drawings, for the coils to be stationary, then the mags also stationary(mounted to end plates?) then the axle/shaft has the tube mounted from the middle of the shaft in the middle of the motor/gen casing, being it looks like there are 2 sets of mags and stators, one set on either end held by the casing and end plates. Otherwise how could the mags be stationary while inside the tube connected to shaft?  Could be done another way but difficulty would be increased. This way the tube is mounted to the shaft at the tubes center rather than the end of the tube and the other end of the motor casing holds the other stuff. Tube would have to be very secure and balanced/centered with only one end held by the shaft.




Mags

Yes, that is exactly what he was showing.
Only the iron rotates between the inner magnets and outer coils.
But another problem is that he says it works like he has shown but built it with 40 poles and 168 magnets?
What does that mean, are there now 40 iron bars along with 40 coils?, and how did he arrange the 168 magnets?
 
To make a good replication he will need to clarify the missing details.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Magluvin on November 11, 2014, 03:58:59 AM

Yes, that is exactly what he was showing.
Only the iron rotates between the inner magnets and outer coils.
But another problem is that he says it works like he has shown but built it with 40 poles and 168 magnets?
What does that mean, are there now 40 iron bars along with 40 coils?, and how did he arrange the 168 magnets?
 
To make a good replication he will need to clarify the missing details.

Yeah, could be many individual coils and sets of mags. Maybe the thing is higher freq than 60hz also. Or many phase changes per rotation.   Im trying to come up with a simple test bed for the concept. Things dont have to be large to work.  ;) Just to test the no increase in drag between loaded and unloaded.

If we want to be skeptical, the amount of apparent output per apparent input seems monsterous, but that may be what this idea is all about, easy spin and lots out.

Mags

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 11, 2014, 04:09:48 AM
He is not gonna rewind the stator.

He is most likely trying to increase number of rotating ferrite''magnet'' with gap, and posibly more smaller stationnary magnet.

A very densly stacked ''high frequency'' ?

By iterating, with 3 components, we will arrive to a logical solution as to what he meant for more power.

1. Soft iron plate 0.5mm, iron tube only holder to easy when i cutting, and must be open when assmbly wth holder alumnium, holder must isoltor mterial, and holder must be connected by shaft output, so shaft any 2 ( 1 shaft for rotor spin and 2 shaft for magnet or elctromagnet ), and any bearing .

Am I understanding that the holder's 4 massive links are not magnetic blocks but just the connections to the iron ( wich is made of soft iron ) Or is that some sort of magnet.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: wistiti on November 11, 2014, 05:33:29 AM
For me it is something similar to that:
http://www.overunitybuilder.com/lenzlessquale.html
:)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ketone on November 11, 2014, 07:19:05 AM
For me it is something similar to that:
http://www.overunitybuilder.com/lenzlessquale.html (http://www.overunitybuilder.com/lenzlessquale.html)
 :)
The principles look the same...existing technology converted, which is what we need.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: syairchairun on November 11, 2014, 01:31:54 PM
@syairchairun (http://www.overunity.com/profile/syairchairun.102722/)


Thanks for sharing your videos.  I have added notes to your image.  Can you tell me if this is correct?


Best regards,
LS

Yes, U are right..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: syairchairun on November 11, 2014, 02:43:26 PM
hello everyone,
here in indonesia since new president was elected new hopes arise,hopely someone on top who have heart listen .here is another type of efficient/cheap/free/overun generator.
1. interview and demo ,senior journalist with the inventor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B23joN2ckM4

2. demo with goverment people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B23joN2ckM4

this forum link talk about the device
http://www.kaskus.co.id/thread/54111597c2cb1714498b456c/pertama-di-dunia-solusi-energi-generator-tanpa-bbm-buatan-putra-bangsa-indonesia/

inventor twitter
https://twitter.com/dickyzainal

andyou if look closely,guees what? it's similar with meissner  oscillator ?. no?
@ mod
would you please take this post to proper place.thank you

Itu sangat bagus Gan, Salam, semoga negara kita akan maju.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lasersaber on November 11, 2014, 08:13:16 PM
@syairchairun (http://www.overunity.com/profile/syairchairun.102722/)


Thanks for responding.  Can you tell me if this is the same generator that you are using: eBay Link (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10KW-ST-Generator-Head-1-Phase-for-Diesel-or-Gas-Engine-60Hz-/331362857668?pt=BI_Generators&hash=item4d26c3f2c4)


Thanks,
LS
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on November 12, 2014, 01:31:37 AM
If you watch the video very carefully, it looks like the generator power is simply operating a relay to supply grid power.
Especially the turn off delay. The generator seems to be fully stopped and it output is still running.
Probably converting the output to dc and filtering with a cap which increases the relay dropout delay.
 
I hope I'm wrong but it looks a bit odd! (video 1)
It is good to see some one else spotted the scam.
Flux gate alternators put out very little power , and still have the same lenz force effect as any other alternator per watt output. The gate plates carry the magnetic field, and the lenz force acts apon the plates as if they were the magnets them self .I see some great minds on this thread falling for this rubbish.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ChrisW on November 12, 2014, 02:12:28 AM
Before we collectively drop our pants and take a big stinking dump on this guy's work, I say we give him a chance. I've been in the FE movement for pretty close to 20 years now, and this guy is among the few who appear to have something viable and replicatable. Let's ask some more questions, get a few more videos and photos, and see if we can shake out all the facts and details. If he's faking it, we'll all know if fairly short order, at which point we can call "bombs away!" Until then, I hope we can all be polite and give him the benefit of the doubt.


Chris

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: paijo on November 12, 2014, 03:44:15 AM
@syairchairun,yoi gan betul bnget.mdah2an pula negara kita ga trgntung lgi sama bbm  :).
eniwe gan,email agan yg syairalamsyahrazab@yahoo.co.id aktif kaga? yg laen jga kyaknya nanyain hal yg sama. ane dah kirim email. email ane yg bebemc@c@@yahoo.co.id
maju terus gan pantang mundur!  ;)

your blue running generator in first n second video is same original ramadan design right?you showed on the 2 video (ramadan design= printed photocopy paper). and if im not wrong your design is an animated one on your computer right? can't wait to see your build  :) .
would you please also post here the ramadan original design? ( printed photocopy paper).
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: syairchairun on November 12, 2014, 09:19:45 AM
@syairchairun,yoi gan betul bnget.mdah2an pula negara kita ga trgntung lgi sama bbm  :).
eniwe gan,email agan yg syairalamsyahrazab@yahoo.co.id aktif kaga? yg laen jga kyaknya nanyain hal yg sama. ane dah kirim email. email ane yg bebemc@c@@yahoo.co.id
maju terus gan pantang mundur!  ;)

your blue running generator in first n second video is same original ramadan design right?you showed on the 2 video (ramadan design= printed photocopy paper). and if im not wrong your design is an animated one on your computer right? can't wait to see your build  :) .
would you please also post here the ramadan original design? ( printed photocopy paper).

Aktif itu gan, sekrang sih saya hanya menunggu izin dari pembuatnya ( Ramadan ), apa boleh untuk dishare, yang asli darinya itu yang 100rpm gan yang pertama x saya buat, tunggu aja saya akan kirm itu, sangat simple sih gan kerjnya.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on November 12, 2014, 09:25:16 AM
plyz send my original circut ,foto alternator ..
thanks ...
my syte ...
http://realstrannik.com/forum/freeenergylt-antanas/82-ustanovka-syairchairun.html#3239 (http://realstrannik.com/forum/freeenergylt-antanas/82-ustanovka-syairchairun.html#3239)
--
my email

antanaslietuva@gmail.com

Best regards ...
GEROS JUMS DIENOS  ...
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Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Marsing on November 12, 2014, 12:22:40 PM
Aktif itu gan, sekrang sih saya hanya menunggu izin dari pembuatnya ( Ramadan ), apa boleh untuk dishare, yang asli darinya itu yang 100rpm gan yang pertama x saya buat, tunggu aja saya akan kirm itu, sangat simple sih gan kerjnya.

 :o , Alo gan,

mngkin lbh baik jk pernyataan diatas dlm bhs inggris utk mngobati rasa pensran sseorang yg tlah mminta kurng lebh 2x gan.  n tlng d share dsn jg klo dah dpt izin gan.

sukses slalu.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: totoalas on November 12, 2014, 12:55:45 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb2GUiV8Bf0&list=PL9lN82Fv_KyXbRPImaD74M6ucsQIMO3fr&index=3
maybe same principle  but using ac instead of magnet
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: d3x0r on November 12, 2014, 01:29:44 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb2GUiV8Bf0&list=PL9lN82Fv_KyXbRPImaD74M6ucsQIMO3fr&index=3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb2GUiV8Bf0&list=PL9lN82Fv_KyXbRPImaD74M6ucsQIMO3fr&index=3)
maybe same principle  but using ac instead of magnet
That's not even remotely the same.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on November 12, 2014, 01:59:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb2GUiV8Bf0&list=PL9lN82Fv_KyXbRPImaD74M6ucsQIMO3fr&index=3
maybe same principle  but using ac instead of magnet
That is a bearing motor-loads of amp's and heat,and very little torque.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 12, 2014, 03:16:45 PM
You may find this interesting.

Dr. Silvanus P. Thompson who was the president of the Institution of Electrical Engineers as well as a professor of physics at the London Technical College, wrote in one of his series of books on Dynamo Electrical Machinery that he and an associate were investigating this same type of set up, a stationary field and armature with rotating iron in between. He wrote that the preliminary results were very encouraging.

That was written sometime between 1893 and 1905.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 12, 2014, 06:42:20 PM
I hate to sound like a know-it-all but I'm sure I know exactly how this works and why it takes so little effort to rotate it.

The generator he is using has a 4 pole/coil rotor already and the poles with coils bolt onto the shaft. Unbolt the coils and poles, machine the shaft to get a 1/2” or so of clearance for the new iron pole shoes and reattach the 4 poles.

The 4 new rotating iron pieces are like detached pole shoes. As they rotate, the inner and outer surface, in fact the whole shoe, takes on the polarity and strength of the coils beneath them, and greatly reduce the reluctance at the same time. They also rotate the field lines providing flux cutting just like the original armature.

Also as each shoe transitions between a N pole coil and a S pole coil, or S to N, there is a magnetic attraction from the next pole to the shoe that aids rotation. It's a built in motor, and this is probably the major factor in reduced input HP.

I gotta get me one of these :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 12, 2014, 08:14:19 PM
I think before we determine the workings of the generator we should wait for syairchairun to get permission to release the actual construction of the 100 RPM generator shown in the videos.
 
There are many theories how this works but unless you know the exact construction you will be playing the same wild goose hunt as always.
 
If syairchairun can get permission to release the exact 100 RPM generator design, then replication and verification would be simplified.
 
It's my opinion that the 4 pole design will suffer much of the same problems as a conventional generator. Pushing iron that is essentially a magnet across the windings will have the same drag effect as a magnet.
 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: paijo on November 12, 2014, 09:42:49 PM
as lumen said i'll wait till mr syairchairun get permission to release from the gen designer (100 rpm gen) :) .

Aktif itu gan, sekrang sih saya hanya menunggu izin dari pembuatnya ( Ramadan ), apa boleh untuk dishare,
 yang asli darinya itu yang 100rpm gan yang pertama x saya buat, tunggu aja saya akan kirm itu, sangat simple sih gan kerjnya


@all,mr syairchairun email is aktif,now he just wait permission from the gen maker ( Ramadan ),he may share it or not.
the original from ramadan is the 100rpm gen which mr syairchairun build in the first time,just wait i will send that,the working principle is so simple


@syairchairun ,terimakasih gan ane akan tunggu  :)
@marsing , ane gak ngeuh klo dsini ada tmen snegara jga  ;D pdahal ane dah muter2 d sub forum kapanadze ampir 2 taonan  :o .salam kenal ya gan  ;D

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: barbosi on November 12, 2014, 09:50:19 PM
As was indicated before, the working principle is described in http://www.google.com/patents/US5191258 (http://www.google.com/patents/US5191258)

For me, the following was the punch line:
Quote
The present invention avoids such a situation by providing for a counter-magnetic field to, in turn, reduce originally applied torque.

Regards.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ketone on November 12, 2014, 10:07:53 PM

As was indicated before, the working principle is described in http://www.google.com/patents/US5191258 (http://www.google.com/patents/US5191258)

For me, the following was the punch line:
Regards.

Yes, that pretty much sums it up, no need to wait, just build.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 12, 2014, 10:16:05 PM
Hai, after i post myvideo about generator no effect lenz law, Now I will show U it can selfrunning, only use myhand to start,
and ths video i will show short coil and no efect lenzlaw, and I will show next mygenerator 10kva its same project, differnt only its has only 4pole run in 1500rpm toget 50hz, its same with mygenrtor 5kva, in mygnrtor 5kva i use 40pole stator coil in wire pararel,220v.0.5A 50hz percoil in only 100-120 rpm, but its very expensve i use 162 prmnen mgnet and it gve very high cogng when start.

In next plan mygenrtr 10kva i dnt use prmnen mgnet, only elctromgnetc ( 80v.4A exciter), and i dnt modfication coil in stator its original, and i use coupling 1 by 1 of motor and gnerator no use pulley or gearbox, they are expnsve,

And i will show the animation how to it work,

Next video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWU12Db_MY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWU12Db_MY)

I think same it wth device James W german, But it linear flux magnetic but in Ramadan device is circular flux magnetic..

The key is magnet and stator coil not spining or rotate and rotr made by softiron rotate between them..

Thank's..

The idea is simple and brilliant!
Having magnet ant coil on stator and adding soft iron rotor to make magnetic connection between them then breaking it still makes induction!
The most interesting part gets there about cogging difference as every single conventional generator have magnets or coils spinning to do same thing...
If you are familar about QEG ( http://www.fixtheworldproject.net/what-is-the-qeg-.html ) in your case there are magnets as power source instead of coils :)

Thanks for sharing and confirming my ideas!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 12, 2014, 10:35:16 PM
As was indicated before, the working principle is described in http://www.google.com/patents/US5191258 (http://www.google.com/patents/US5191258)

For me, the following was the punch line:
Regards.

Yes, I have seen this patent many times.
You are reading something into it that's not there.
 
Though it's true that as you apply a load the generator becomes easier to turn, it never produces more energy than it takes.
The reason is that rotating the generator with no load takes much energy as you are changing the polarity of the iron segments many times a second. (ever heard of induction heating)
 
Now, as you apply a load to the generator, the iron segments try to conduct the field to the coil which resists the change so the iron becomes less magnetized making it easier to turn the generator.
If you rotate it very fast with shorted coils, it will rotate very easily as the iron remains almost non-magnetized. The down side is that the output is also near zero at this point.
So while the generator turns easier under load, it is never over unity.
 
What is different in the generator in the video?  I suppose I will wait and see.
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on November 12, 2014, 11:30:40 PM
I showed this to a trusted friend, he said something is not right.
When the coils are shorted voltage should drop.
He's right amperage should go through the roof and voltage should drop.
Im not saying its fake but before you invest too much maybe a small scale model should be tested.

dave
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ChrisW on November 12, 2014, 11:39:38 PM
Brilliant, Lumen!


I kept going over it in my head, then watched the Part 2 video several more times starting with the teardown of the generator. In German, Ecklin-Brown, Kromery, et. al., the magnetic field is being "toggled" (strengthened or weakened) by the presence or absence of iron. I kept looking for slots in his steel tube and as far as I can tell, they're just not there! So... the mechanics of this beast are apparently NOT the same as in the German patent.


What DOES appear in the video is a SOLID tube with four perpendicular coils inside. 1) I'm not seeing how that conveys enough of a magnetic field on the generator coils to have any kind of "profound" effect, and 2) why that arrangement would cause the kind of cogging we're seeing in the video as he spins the pulley by hand.


Hmm. Clearly there's something we've all missed.....
Chris

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 13, 2014, 12:03:56 AM
Yes, that pretty much sums it up, no need to wait, just build.
http://www.overunity.com/15088/new-generator-no-effect-lenzlaw-give-more-detail-in-pcture/
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: picowatt on November 13, 2014, 12:26:04 AM
It is good to see some one else spotted the scam.
Flux gate alternators put out very little power , and still have the same lenz force effect as any other alternator per watt output. The gate plates carry the magnetic field, and the lenz force acts apon the plates as if they were the magnets them self .I see some great minds on this thread falling for this rubbish.

Tinman,

Yes indeed, the videos are highly suspect.  Regarding the first video, the output driven relay idea sounds about right.

Ever use a wind up flashlight?  Upon listening to the first video, I was immediately reminded of the sound of straight cut gears being used to greatly multiply a shaft speed.  Also, when he stops turning the pulley, there is a cogging effect seen on the rim of the pulley as the" innards" of the machine apparently stop rotating.  Either there is a ratchet clutch, or just gears over riding each other, but something inside appears to stop rotating after the pulley stops and there is also a sound associated with that action.

When we are shown the voltage on the meter, the voltage swings up and down as he rotates the pulley.  Oddly, when the loads are attached and operating, no hint of a voltage fluctuation is observed, just full off or full on, never anywhere in between.

As well, we are to believe that when he shows the current using the clamp meters that there are supposed to be 2400 watts or so flowing through flimsy connections.  One might rightfully expect a bit of heat or smoke.

The drawings he has shown do not at all seem to be in accord with the mechanical action or sounds observed when he rotates the pulley by hand (i.e., the cogging or stuttering of the pulley when he stops spinning it and the associated sounds). 

So, where do the 162 magnets go?

PW
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 13, 2014, 02:12:25 AM
At this point I want to make it clear that many here may have missed the fact that the drawings and animations shown with the 4 poles are only the concept of the generator shown in the videos.
 
The generator shown in both videos has a totally different number of poles and magnets. It was said to have 40 poles and takes 162 magnets(need to go back for exact number)
 
For this reason it requires only 100 RPM for 50 or 60 HZ output. This also means that if it's working as claimed, it may in fact be using a different principal than the 4 pole drawings even if it appears to be using the same.

syairchairun says he is trying to get the OK to post the details of the actual generator used in the videos. Even some good photos of the inside would be helpful, but actual drawings would resolve all problems with replication.
 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 13, 2014, 02:43:29 AM
In his first video he shows you the cad of the motor.

Up to you to extrapolate the design from that shaky moment of camera history.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 13, 2014, 03:39:34 AM
In his first video he shows you the cad of the motor.

Up to you to extrapolate the design from that shaky moment of camera history.

From what he says, the disassembled generator is not the one he uses in the videos to show things operating.
What he shows in the disassembled generator would require 1500 to 1800 RPM to produce 50-60hz if it worked at all.
 
The one in the video requires only 100 RPM and is a different design that he does not show anywhere.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 13, 2014, 03:47:55 AM
Where does he say that the cad papers shown on top of the motor are not the ones of that motor.

Show me the post of sya.

He shows, on his first video, operation of a saw at 13000 rpm by a pull of arm.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 13, 2014, 04:27:53 AM
(snip)

syairchairun says he is trying to get the OK to post the details of the actual generator used in the videos. Even some good photos of the inside would be helpful, but actual drawings would resolve all problems with replication.

So would a long extension cord.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 13, 2014, 04:40:31 AM
Where does he say that the cad papers shown on top of the motor are not the ones of that motor.

Show me the post of sya.

He shows, on his first video, operation of a saw at 13000 rpm by a pull of arm.

There are three (3) threads started with this generator so I'm thinking it was the first thread that most have missed now.
 
@TK,
I did say early on that it looks like the generator is producing just enough output to drop in a relay, but I will wait for the final results.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on November 13, 2014, 04:48:18 AM

Tinsel
There is no doubt
Video analysis is "Brutal" here ....
however a nerve has been touched and perhaps it will be good to investigate ....


some interesting thoughts and insight here




http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2676.msg43036;topicseen#msg43036 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2676.msg43036;topicseen#msg43036)

quite certain it will Migrate elsewhere.


only actual experimenters need apply...................


thx
Chet





Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 13, 2014, 11:00:59 AM
Hey Ramset how do iget a recommendation to join?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Marsing on November 13, 2014, 12:14:58 PM
I remember don smith's device sitting on the table, i think its same concept but a bit complicated. ;D


@marsing , ane gak ngeuh klo dsini ada tmen snegara jga  ;D pdahal ane dah muter2 d sub forum kapanadze ampir 2 taonan  :o .salam kenal ya gan  ;D

Brngkli bnyk gan, 2 taon muter2 pa gak pusing tuch. lol. slm knl blk gan ;D
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 13, 2014, 05:25:15 PM
For clarity purpose.

The one he shows in video is the one that is present in the cad drawings shown on video only in pixel format.

Wich is different from those of the dissasembly posted from inventor program, and not his current motor, one you see disassemble.is a prototype

The motor seems to be composed of sections of layers of thin sheet and support sheet wich is thicker, with non-rotating magnets composed of 4 packs of stacked magnets. There seems to sections in depth, so how he arrange those magnets in the middle, permanent magnet? Coiled or not ?

Also notice ''pads'' in between. He sandwich all that mix and turn this mass.

Stator coil most likely stock, as he use this.

There is sections to this motor in its depth, by a suppord plate, then thin plate stacking.

Brg in careful view of cad image to see.

So all this is just different design, only force of magnetic field seems to matter, as in his next design, he intends to use electromagnet(s?) 4A 80V and NOT touch the stator coils, so he changed them before?


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: paijo on November 13, 2014, 09:46:46 PM
@marsing, puyeng bnget gan mpe ga jdi2 itu gen  :( ,gtu ya gan trnyta bnyak tmen euy  ;D

@syairchairun ,ane ada bberapa prtanyaan nih gan. tuk lbih jlasnya ane pke gmbar prtnyaanya,mohon dijawab ya gan  :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: fer123 on November 13, 2014, 09:52:25 PM
Someone toke the time to explained.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: fer123 on November 13, 2014, 09:54:15 PM
One more. From Ufopolitics, thanks.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 13, 2014, 10:29:42 PM
Nice cad concept but the cogging will be very strong at 4 times per revolution unlike the video with 20 to 40 cogs per revolution.
This is however what was shown in his cad also.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Magluvin on November 14, 2014, 12:35:40 AM
Nice cad concept but the cogging will be very strong at 4 times per revolution unlike the video with 20 to 40 cogs per revolution.
This is however what was shown in his cad also.

I wrote this in the third thread of the 3d drawings.

Has the polarity of the magnets been shown yet?  If they are all the same pole out, where other parts of the motor can loop to the outer casing, then its possible to have nearly zero cog. If you have a small iron bar, and put a small magnet on the end of the bar N in, then put another of the same magnet on the other end of the bar, N in, it will stick to the bar. But as you use larger stronger mags, there will be a point where the second mag wont stick to the other end of the bar. No cog.  Or say very little cog if any.  Looking at the drawings so far, the iron slats that move are held together with outer plates which would make them all 1 piece of iron(iron bar).  And the mags look beefy.

Just thinking about it more, if the mags were 2 N out and 2 S out, there would be super cogging due to the mechanical connection of the iron bars. N mag goes in 1 bar, through bar holder plate and back to a S mag, without the second gap between the iron bar and coil.  So if it works as shown, Im betting on all same pole out. ;)

Not sure, but it is something to think on.  If the mags are N on 2 and S on 2, the coging with what we are looking at would most likely not be able to be overcome by hand so easily.  So the idea of all mags N 'or' S out makes more sense.

Im thinking that the iron parts may not have to be so big, in order to disturb the field in the coil. 

Was thinking of ferrite bars to replace the iron. Neo mags can be gotten un-magnetized and should be cheaper as the havnt been magnetized yet. Those could be a good replacement for the iron rotors. Can hold a lot of field before saturation, so can be smaller than iron. ;)   Get them without plating to avoid inductive losses of the plating and just paint or clear coat them as they cant handle oxidation well.. They can be gotten in curved pieces, made for pm motors

Also, coging can be reduced with an asymetric ratio of magnets and iron parts.

Mags
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ketone on November 14, 2014, 12:58:51 AM
"Nice cad concept but the cogging will be very strong at 4 times per revolution unlike the video with 20 to 40 cogs per revolution.
This is however what was shown in his cad also."

He did mention his first motor had 40 poles? Or am I mistaken?


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 14, 2014, 01:17:10 AM
syairchairun said he used 162 magnets, so were they arranged as 4 poles or a much small spacing to achieve a higher number poles and cogs per rev.
 
There are many details about what he says and what he shows that don't match.
 
I have some ideas about how it may have been done also, but will wait to see what new information transpires first.
How about NS, SN, NS, SN, NS --- with the crossing to a new coil on the NN or SS and a change within each coil of NS or SN. Each iron piece is just long enough to catch about 1/4 of each magnet when between magnets, making the iron neutral at one point of each operation.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: poorpluto on November 14, 2014, 04:25:52 AM
I remember don smith's device sitting on the table, i think its same concept but a bit complicated. ;D

Brngkli bnyk gan, 2 taon muter2 pa gak pusing tuch. lol. slm knl blk gan ;D

Nambah 1 lagi gan d sni, setuju yakin ada banyak :D
Kalo saya baru setengah tahunan muter2 di thread Figuera's generator
@Marsing & @Paijo posisi di mana gan? barangkali bisa eksperimen bareng..

Cheers
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: syairchairun on November 14, 2014, 12:10:48 PM
One more. From Ufopolitics, thanks.

Wow very true UFO politics , Sory i can not much time to go to the forums , busy with the next generator , I 've had success with mygenerator next , I 'm buying a camera for making video more clearly, before I released the next video , you can follow ufo politics , it is very true what drew , I have to get how the magnetic flux runs without any effect of lenz law , it turns out lenz law provides positive efec , maybe tomorrow I will be releasing a video how the magnetic flux occurs in stator.
Another result I get 220v 55A in my next generator with a frequency of 120Hz at 1500rpm rotation with 750W input + 320W for Center Coil , it is not as expected , then I will play it with the speed of 750rpm to 50Hz , then make more windings in Stator , but may only produce a 30A 220V .
Thnk 's .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: syairchairun on November 14, 2014, 12:45:12 PM
@marsing, puyeng bnget gan mpe ga jdi2 itu gen  :( ,gtu ya gan trnyta bnyak tmen euy  ;D

@syairchairun ,ane ada bberapa prtanyaan nih gan. tuk lbih jlasnya ane pke gmbar prtnyaanya,mohon dijawab ya gan  :)

For Paijo Bejo ,hehe
A. It's no magnet only Iron soft.
B. 20mm but I use original stator 3kva from china, If in picture original has same project with Dave Squires stator but i use conventional windings.
C. Its rotor holder made by alumnium.
D. 20mm but I use original stator 3kva from cina.
E. Must iron,laminate iron better and in middle has 10*12*80 mm neody magnt, any 40 streets magnet NSNSNSNS....., so 1 Streets any 4mgnet wth the same pole, and 2 Magnet for amplydyne (I dn't know it amplydyne, but the inventor say that when u chnge generator to dc welding only function when use diode for dc current), when I remove 2mgnet tht no efect, in my AC gnrator.

Thank's
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lost_bro on November 14, 2014, 04:47:25 PM
For Paijo Bejo ,hehe
A. It's no magnet only Iron soft.
B. 20mm but I use original stator 3kva from china, If in picture original has same project with Dave Squires stator but i use conventional windings.
C. Its rotor holder made by alumnium.
D. 20mm but I use original stator 3kva from cina.
E. Must iron,laminate iron better and in middle has 10*12*80 mm neody magnt, any 40 streets magnet NSNSNSNS....., so 1 Streets any 4mgnet wth the same pole, and 2 Magnet for amplydyne (I dn't know it amplydyne, but the inventor say that when u chnge generator to dc welding only function when use diode for dc current), when I remove 2mgnet tht no efect, in my AC gnrator.

Thank's


Good day syairchairun

Thanks for the additional information.

I do not understand where the amplydyne magnents are located in your device.

Please make a drawing to show how to use the amplydyne magnets and where to mount them.

Thanks in advance.

take care, peace
lost_bro
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 14, 2014, 07:52:02 PM
The amplidyne is a power control device and is not OU. It simply uses mechanical energy to provide large power signals based off small electrical input.
Similar to the average car alternator or generator with it's regulated field input to control and stabilize it's output.
 
It will be interesting to see the new 15kw generator in operation.

 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 14, 2014, 09:52:44 PM
syairchairun,

... Another result I get 220v 55A in my next generator with a frequency of 120Hz at 1500rpm rotation with 750W input + 320W for Center Coil , it is not as expected ...

This statement convinces me that you are being honest about your results. Looking at the second video animation starting at 23:00. You clearly have 8 poles on the 4 rotating iron shoes during the transition point between exciters. NNSSNNSS.

Thank you.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FatBird on November 14, 2014, 10:24:59 PM
Here is the Patent in an Easier To Read PDF file.

                                                                                  .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: paijo on November 15, 2014, 12:07:34 AM
@poorpluto , jabar gan  :)

@syairchairun , whoaa terimakasih banyak gan.skarang dah mlai ada bayangan bntuk gneratornya gmana.thank you very much gan  :D .

edit : yg C itu holdernya aluminium,untuk rotornya jenis logam apa? lebar rotornya brapa mm?.
 oiya gan klo liat gmbr dri video prtma magnet di knan-kiri rotor tpi klo desain agan sndiri (vid kdua) mgntnya cuma disisi dlam gen aja ya?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: poorpluto on November 15, 2014, 10:55:21 AM
@poorpluto , jabar gan  :)

Unfortunately, I'm miles away gan, ane di jatim ni..  :o

@all

I believe this device is really working, no hoax, no hidden cord, reed relay and all of those cheats.. Very simple principle and beautiful like Figuera's gen..

sorry, out of topic.. I've got one little ridiculous question, yes you may laugh at me as hard as possible..

Newton's Law III states F action = -F reaction
Does it means that we will get at least COP 200%? I know Force is different from Energy, but imagine we put 1 N to something, THAT something will experience 1 N  AND  WE will also experience 1 N from that something? Total force of 2 N from 1 N without any lever?
So Newton was declaring a free energy law? LOL ;D
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: forest on November 15, 2014, 02:41:42 PM
Exactly.Free energy. ;D
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Farmhand on November 16, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Quote
It is good to see some one else spotted the scam.
Flux gate alternators put out very little power , and still have the same lenz force effect as any other alternator per watt output. The gate plates carry the magnetic field, and the lenz force acts apon the plates as if they were the magnets them self .I see some great minds on this thread falling for this rubbish.

Tinman,

Yes indeed, the videos are highly suspect.  Regarding the first video, the output driven relay idea sounds about right.

Ever use a wind up flashlight?  Upon listening to the first video, I was immediately reminded of the sound of straight cut gears being used to greatly multiply a shaft speed.  Also, when he stops turning the pulley, there is a cogging effect seen on the rim of the pulley as the" innards" of the machine apparently stop rotating.  Either there is a ratchet clutch, or just gears over riding each other, but something inside appears to stop rotating after the pulley stops and there is also a sound associated with that action.

When we are shown the voltage on the meter, the voltage swings up and down as he rotates the pulley.  Oddly, when the loads are attached and operating, no hint of a voltage fluctuation is observed, just full off or full on, never anywhere in between.

As well, we are to believe that when he shows the current using the clamp meters that there are supposed to be 2400 watts or so flowing through flimsy connections.  One might rightfully expect a bit of heat or smoke.

The drawings he has shown do not at all seem to be in accord with the mechanical action or sounds observed when he rotates the pulley by hand (i.e., the cogging or stuttering of the pulley when he stops spinning it and the associated sounds). 

So, where do the 162 magnets go?

PW

Looks like something is buried in a squarish hole under one of the capacitors. I call hoax. Dirt floor square lines around the
capacitor supposedly powering the drive motor, the capacitor doesn't move at all.

And the operation shows the power draw reflected in the strain on the belt while using the welder, and is audible loading so the
load is being reflected to the supply.

..

Because of the low RPM operation of the generator (possibly for wind turbine) and also due to the gearing the load is not noticed
so easily, but I can see it loading the belt when he uses the welder and hear it.

What's under that cap and why is there a square indent in the ground that resembles something buried that vibrates maybe ?  :)

.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on November 16, 2014, 07:14:20 AM
Looks like something is buried in a squarish hole under one of the capacitors. I call hoax. Dirt floor square lines around the
capacitor supposedly powering the drive motor, the capacitor doesn't move at all.

And the operation shows the power draw reflected in the strain on the belt while using the welder, and is audible loading so the
load is being reflected to the supply.

..

Because of the low RPM operation of the generator (possibly for wind turbine) and also due to the gearing the load is not noticed
so easily, but I can see it loading the belt when he uses the welder and hear it.

What's under that cap and why is there a square indent in the ground that resembles something buried that vibrates maybe ?  :)

.
I like how the motor and generator are bolted so soundly to the dirt lol
It is obvious that the motor and generator are bolted to a base plate of some description,as neither the motor or generator move when he struggles to remove the belt. You then have to ask--WHY did they cover it all up with dirt?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Enjoykin on November 16, 2014, 10:25:12 AM
Hai, after i post myvideo about generator no effect lenz law, Now I will show U it can selfrunning, only use myhand to start,
and ths video i will show short coil and no efect lenzlaw, and I will show next mygenerator 10kva its same project, differnt only its has only 4pole run in 1500rpm toget 50hz, its same with mygenrtor 5kva, in mygnrtor 5kva i use 40pole stator coil in wire pararel,220v.0.5A 50hz percoil in only 100-120 rpm, but its very expensve i use 162 prmnen mgnet and it gve very high cogng when start.

In next plan mygenrtr 10kva i dnt use prmnen mgnet, only elctromgnetc ( 80v.4A exciter), and i dnt modfication coil in stator its original, and i use coupling 1 by 1 of motor and gnerator no use pulley or gearbox, they are expnsve,

And i will show the animation how to it work,

Next video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWU12Db_MY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWU12Db_MY)

I think same it wth device James W german, But it linear flux magnetic but in Ramadan device is circular flux magnetic..

The key is magnet and stator coil not spining or rotate and rotr made by softiron rotate between them..

Thank's..


Halo syairchairun teman lama saya apa yang terjadi di indonesia.  :D
Bagaimana Anda generator. Orang-orang dalam bahasa Rusia menunggu Anda untuk memberi mereka petunjuk bagaimana membuat Genset Anda. Mereka membutuhkan informasi bagaimana kutub magnetik ditempatkan dalam perangkat. Bantuan kami giev semua diperlukan rincian dan kami akan membuat dunia ini lebih banyak terima kasih salam enjoykin

Menonton video baru Free energi magnet motor pada saluran TheMaster DV  :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmbtVaVGxns
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrkiqE5FdlAZmSKeQe00i-w

ps: Кami menunggu bantuan Anda. berhati-hati dan keberuntungan. Saya telah membuat thread baru untuk Genset Anda situs free energi saya datang dan bergabung dengan kami teman kita Indonesia.

http://realstrannik.com/forum/svobodnaya-energiya/81-btg-10kvatt.html

Salam enjoykin Rusia  :D
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 16, 2014, 01:23:26 PM
Tinman and Farmhand have got it right. It is simply not possible for the two devices connected by the belt to maintain pulley orientation and tension on the belt while operating unless they are both firmly attached to the same mounting surface somehow. Hasn't anyone ever worked on a car with a slipping alternator belt? You need quite a bit of tension in order to eliminate slippage and squealing and you aren't going to be able to maintain that simply by setting your generator and drive motor on the dirt.
I'm not so sure the square indentation is a smoking gun, though. It could be the "footprint" of one of the heavier devices, that was set down there and then picked up and moved over. It looks to be about the same size as the base of the large blue generator housing.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Farmhand on November 16, 2014, 01:57:26 PM
Yes Tinmans observation about the two things needing to be securely fixed in order to be able to even run without moving is spot on.
And why then cover that with dirt ? Maybe the two are connected by a small frame and burying  the bottom of the frame is it's
mount to the ground, dunno. Not how I would do it with a welder handy, but burying the bottom it would stabilize it somewhat.

Disclaimer I haven't even watched the video right through so I do not know if that capacitor gets moved or not. So,, the
next paragraph is based on the assumption that the capacitor can't be moved ( I assumed it doesn't get moved and remains
stationary). I get bored with wild claims and no evidence.

I'm thinking TK, that the drive motor is being powered from that capacitor isn't it ? And it is sitting within the square mark and
there is a squiggly line leading away from the square.

Anyway it is rife for speculation and very sus, I'm surprised most people can't just pick the fakes by watching the video's.

To me this setup looks like it could be just a generator modified for wind work and with the big pulley the drive motor has
substantial leverage to withstand sudden loading rpm changes. The setup being powered by some hidden supply.

..

Are you thinking a line through the generator from underneath ?

..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on November 16, 2014, 03:48:12 PM
Yes,
 Belt tension and dirt were the first things that jump in your face.
PoorPluto,
has the inventor invited you to view??
or anyone here?


thx
Chet
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ketone on November 16, 2014, 05:53:19 PM
 It could be something as simple as a buried battery with a reed switch.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 16, 2014, 06:33:46 PM
@Farmhand: I watched up to the point where he starts scribbling on a piece of paper at around 13 minutes and things are disassembled. Up to that point, no, the capacitors are not moved, somehow they stay balanced on their ends without getting knocked over or moving at all that I can see.  I did notice that the "generator" is removed from its elevated mounting for the "self running" part of the demonstration. This is undoubtedly so that it could be remounted rigidly to whatever buried structure there is connecting the "generator" with the drive motor. Clearly the two items are rigidly connected by some structure we cannot see, because he struggles mightily to remove the belt and neither the "generator" nor the motor move even one centimeter while he's doing the removal.

Once he starts scribbling as if he expected the scribbles to be readable at 240p with the poorly focused and shaky camera work I had to stop watching closely, but I scrolled on through and didn't see anything else in the way of an actual demonstration after that point, just parts scattered about in the dirt.  Like I said before, the most probable things needed to "replicate" this performance are just a long extension cord and a confederate with a switch. Clearly this video was not done by himself alone as he claimed before; there is definitely someone working the camera. Doing it in the dirt? Why? Can he not afford to build a decent waist-high workbench?  It's all part of the shtick.

This is just a joke. A wind-up to see how gullible people can be. All the shaky camera work, the dirt, the silly loads, the cheap clampons, even perhaps the incompetent handling of the stick welder... all of that is deliberate theater so that you will underestimate the sophistication of the joke. Just like that Wasif Kahloon character from a few months back who showed us essentially the same thing, even down to the dirt, then faded away after he got his jollies.

I didn't notice any of the pilot lamps light up on any of the equipment and cord-sets used. If I missed it, please let me know.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: albator10 on November 16, 2014, 06:40:48 PM
The belt tension is not so disturbing because we saw on the video at 4.06 that the motor is bolted to the ground.
It should be the same thing for the generator.





Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 16, 2014, 07:02:22 PM
"Bolted to the ground". That's a laugh. Go ahead, try "bolting" something to the ground, then put a big side load on it with a drive belt and let me know how it works out. How do you adjust the belt tension, I wonder?

That one gets a ROFL for sure. Don't forget, Kahloon's device was "nailed" to the ground as well!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on November 16, 2014, 07:13:46 PM
Well, it is awful dusty in that part of the world ?

He may be a bachelor...the floor may simply need a women's touch.

Regards...

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 16, 2014, 07:57:35 PM
I suppose a few those two foot long lawn spikes could nail it down fairly well in that hard clay.
 
Regardless, it still looks like the generator output was used to activate a relay in the generator box.
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: albator10 on November 16, 2014, 09:15:46 PM
"Bolted to the ground". That's a laugh. Go ahead, try "bolting" something to the ground, then put a big side load on it with a drive belt and let me know how it works out. How do you adjust the belt tension, I wonder?

That one gets a ROFL for sure. Don't forget, Kahloon's device was "nailed" to the ground as well!


Sorry, my first language is french.... I wanted to say bolted to the floor, or fixed to the floor if you wish, you dont have to ridicule me.

At 4:40 you see that they are inside some kind of garage we see the concrete wall (and a motorcycle), may be there is a concrete floor under the dust ? Because the floor seams to be pretty flat between the generator and the wall behind

At 4:36 you see that the generator is also bolted on two "beam" and we see the beam fixed on the floor and the generator bolted on the beam.

You dont need to have a tensionner system (is is preferable to have one I know) but only have your fixed motor and the generator on two rail and you pull your generator to have good tension on the belt and you bolt it on the rail. Since this generator is supposed to not have a lot of drag it should work.

I dont say that this guy is real .... I dont know.... I will try to replicate and let you know
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 16, 2014, 10:27:27 PM

Sorry, my first language is french.... I wanted to say bolted to the floor, or fixed to the floor if you wish, you dont have to ridicule me.

At 4:40 you see that they are inside some kind of garage we see the concrete wall (and a motorcycle), may be there is a concrete floor under the dust ? Because the floor seams to be pretty flat between the generator and the wall behind

At 4:36 you see that the generator is also bolted on two "beam" and we see the beam fixed on the floor and the generator bolted on the beam.

You dont need to have a tensionner system (is is preferable to have one I know) but only have your fixed motor and the generator on two rail and you pull your generator to have good tension on the belt and you bolt it on the rail. Since this generator is supposed to not have a lot of drag it should work.

I dont say that this guy is real .... I dont know.... I will try to replicate and let you know

I apologize if I have offended you, and your English is certainement a lot better than my French! But there is a huge difference between "bolted to the ground" and "bolted to the floor".

The fact that the units must be bolted to _something rigid_ like a pair of rails or a baseplate that is somehow buried or hidden out of sight was mentioned a few posts before yours, so your statement "bolted to the ground" struck me as being offered as an alternative to that, and as such, was pretty funny.

Yes, it is clear that with a fixed mount that is a little bit adjustable there is no need for a separate belt tensioner.

At 4:36 it is clear that the generator is sitting on a "beam" or c-bracket but the extent of that support does not go beyond the generator base and does not continue over to the  motor. If this "beam" or bracket is in turn bolted to something else underneath that connects to the motor, it is also clear that that something has been deliberately and carefully buried to put it out of sight. If this is a concrete garage floor covered with dirt, the dirt layer must be inches deep. But I do not believe that it is an indoor location, because in other places in the video you can see bright illumination and hard shadows. The demo may be near an outer wall, and so most of the area shown is in the shadow of the wall or perhaps an overhanging roof, but I still think it is outdoors. For example at 4:52 the camera is pointed so that you can see an area of brilliant illumination. An open garage door? Possibly. More likely they are under the shade of the wall or a roof over an otherwise open area.

But why would you want to waste your time trying to "replicate" this hoax? It doesn't matter whether he  is indoors or out, whether the thing is bolted to the ground or into anchors in a concrete floor under a layer of dirt. The fact that he is showing it on YouTube and has not been co-opted by some military laboratory somewhere is clear enough evidence to me that he is a hoaxer.  Do you seriously believe that some government agency is going to allow such a simple "self running" overunity generator setup to be exhibited in public? The first country to develop such a device will have a great military advantage over its enemies and friends, because they will no longer need to supply costly petroleum-based fuel to their tanks and trucks and naval vessels. Think about it. The fact that you are seeing it on YouTube, demonstrated in such a laughable fashion, is clear enough evidence that it is not real.

But of course it is your time and money and you may waste it as you wish. Please be sure to report your results, whatever they may be, though.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Marsing on November 16, 2014, 11:29:43 PM

But why would you want to waste your time trying to "replicate" this hoax? It doesn't matter whether he  is indoors or out, whether the thing is bolted to the ground or into anchors in a concrete floor under a layer of dirt. The fact that he is showing it on YouTube and has not been co-opted by some military laboratory somewhere is clear enough evidence to me that he is a hoaxer.  Do you seriously believe that some government agency is going to allow such a simple "self running" overunity generator setup to be exhibited in public? The first country to develop such a device will have a great military advantage over its enemies and friends, because they will no longer need to supply costly petroleum-based fuel to their tanks and trucks and naval vessels. Think about it. The fact that you are seeing it on YouTube, demonstrated in such a laughable fashion, is clear enough evidence that it is not real.


As always, this is your last defense, LOL.
you assert everything on you tube are HOAX.

Cmon,  is there nothing  you can exploit anymore....  try harder....  you can make it....  ;D

..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Farmhand on November 17, 2014, 12:17:39 AM
I doubt very much I could get a capacitor to stand stationary on dirt or even concrete while connected by a wire to a running motor,
the mechanical vibrations transferred from the motor to the capacitor via the wire should make it move a bit.

A simple way to show the capacitor is not just a tube to conceal a path to a buried/hidden power supply/connection would be to
lift it up (with a stick if need be) while the setup is running to show it is just a capacitor.

Big claim with a dubious "amateur magician type demonstration" says to me that this is another tongue in cheek deception.

The statistics are clear real OU devices = zero.
Fakes hoaxes and baseless claims = too many to count.

For something to be able to be a hoax there must be a claim.

I mean come on seriously, if I was so inclined I could easily show something just as good or better, by far. But no none pays me
and I have no desire to waste my time setting up complex deceptions.

I have shown how some simple ones can be done just for the sake of showing that anything can be faked to fool a portion of the
viewers, but I always tell the "tell"..

Just look at how the tv foolers ( I mean magicians ) can fool dumbass folks, using just a wirelessly activated mechanical fish,
slight of hand camera trickery and some stooges. All tricks, people like to trick other people to get money, it's that simple.

Dodgy fish trick.... The fish is stif but bends in one place, (the hinge), it's a prop, the seller is a stooge and the slight of hand and
the camera trickery takes care of replacing the mechanical fish with a real one. It's a sad trick.  :-[  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDa8ASuHPnk

..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: paijo on November 17, 2014, 03:19:12 AM
and here we go again.....  :'(
don't lose hope,who don't believe we have free gas is a liar.
your fart?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Marsing on November 17, 2014, 03:33:04 AM
i would like to put this here also.

once again  i want to share this to everyone. :)
.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKpmdgeF_ho


In the end we only regret the chances we didn't take.

Take risks : if you win you will be happy, if you lose you will be wise.

Don't die wondering.

A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity.
An optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

Whether you think you can or think you cannot you're right.

You are what you think.

If you don't control your mind, someone else will.

Be strong you never know who you are inspiring.

MAKE TODAY RIDICULOUSLY AMAZING.
YOU ARE CREATOR SUPPORTS YOUR DREAMS.

end.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 17, 2014, 04:44:48 AM
As always, this is your last defense, LOL.
you assert everything on you tube are HOAX.

Cmon,  is there nothing  you can exploit anymore....  try harder....  you can make it....  ;D

..

Please, go ahead and spend your money to replicate this project. I will expect you to begin right away. I can send you the link for the generator and motor, and you can order them tomorrow! I encourage YOU to do it, NOW! Every day that goes by without YOU making your replication is another day that the world must go without FREE ENERGY! So YOU, Marsing, now have a moral obligation... especially now that you have dissed me... to DO IT NOW. You can get started for well under two thousand dollars US, I think.  Be sure to let us know when you've ordered your parts, and provide a picture so we all can know you aren't just another blowhard bluffer who won't put his money where his mouth is.

I'll be waiting for your photo of your parts ..... especially after these last two posts of yours. DO IT NOW! Or forever be known as Marsing the Talker not the Doer.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: wistiti on November 17, 2014, 04:53:48 AM
@ marsing
That's the way i think.
...hope someone else!..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on November 17, 2014, 05:10:53 AM
...So YOU, Marsing, now have a moral obligation... especially now that you have dissed me...

I'll be waiting for your photo of your parts .....




I wood second that emotion (sorry Smokey)...how dare you, you Marsing you...dissing someone who has been nothing but kind generous and endearing to the entire forum membership here, for a number of years.

Shame shame, and shame again I say !!!


However i don't really see the need to show us a pic of your parts.

Nobody here needs to see them...well except for one maybe.

That request should have been made discretely by PM...thats up to you.

Regards...


ps: yes, it may be doobie nite

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Marsing on November 17, 2014, 07:55:47 AM
double post
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Marsing on November 17, 2014, 07:57:31 AM
Hi TK n All.

Whyyy....... ooohhh........... Whyyy........ 

that's so difficult for you to understand....   

If you want to analyze video, that is up to you, that is up to you too to suspect something, i would like to read.
but Please STOP CALLING HOAX or FAKE or whatever at least maybe for ONE MONTH,

........
But why would you want to waste your time trying to "replicate" this hoax?.......
........

He never asked for money as far as i know. i don't know about you but i myself need him here.

We are all waiting for His new Video, aren't we...........................?, 
There are still some question that we need him to answer, don't we....... ?,

huh........    ???

what happen with you guys?...   >:(

..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Poit on November 17, 2014, 08:42:25 AM
Hi TK n All.

Whyyy....... ooohhh........... Whyyy........ 

that's so difficult for you to understand....   

If you want to analyze video, that is up to you, that is up to you too to suspect something, i would like to read too.
but Please STOP CALLING HOAX or FAKE or whatever at least maybe for ONE MONTH,

He never asked for money as far as i know. i don't know about you but i myself need him here.

We are all waiting for His new Video, aren't we...........................?, 
There are still some question that we need him to answer, don't we....... ?,

huh........    ???

what happen with you guys?...   >:(

..

I love the bit "We are all waiting for His new Video"... so the con can continue? great.. I have previously put out there open wagers for up to $10,000 for proof of a working OU generator. If your so confident, take my wager! You won't, because deep down, you know this is fake crap.

TK is the smartest person on this forum, so say what you want.. but your all full of sh*t (except TK of course, keep up the good work mate!)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Marsing on November 17, 2014, 09:48:24 AM
I love the bit "We are all waiting for His new Video"... so the con can continue? great.. I have previously put out there open wagers for up to $10,000 for proof of a working OU generator. If your so confident, take my wager! You won't, because deep down, you know this is fake crap.

TK is the smartest person on this forum, so say what you want.. but your all full of sh*t (except TK of course, keep up the good work mate!)


What i mean, please give him a time for about one month to come back to show his new vid, if not than you can call it hoax or whatever. who is the con here, he never ask for money, i dunno this is a crap or not that's why i still would like to know his next gen.

i never agree with scammer or whatever who took your or my money, i never i agree with this..

sure, you have a good experience (you,  TK, and some others here ), you can predict something base on your experience, i get your point, i appreciate your point. i learn from it sometime.

but please hold Your assertion. as he said he would come back.  I apologize if i made myself not so clear at first place.

..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on November 17, 2014, 10:13:59 AM
Hello all, I am new to the forum but old in experience.

The first thing that proves that the video producer is fake or not is the motive.

1) This guy has only 2 videos, both videos are about the same invention. So he don't make any money from those videos (no ads).
2) The guy has made a cad file with his invention which takes time. If it was hoax he wouldn't mess with any cad.
3) The guy from his words you can understand that he try hard to explain but his English (as mine) are poor. But even with his average explanation you can easily understand the invention.
4) It is more than obvious that the generator is connected to the motor.

 My experience tells me that this invention is legit and the guy is legit as well.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: hanon on November 17, 2014, 04:55:19 PM
The original Youtube video, which initially was 37:47 min, has been edited and now is only 25 minutes. A copy of the original video is in FreeEnergyLT Youtube Channel

We hope the next video will be better to prove or disprove this technology

Regards
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Enjoykin on November 18, 2014, 12:00:23 AM
Hint from me !!  :D

Taking in account that about 99% of all Tesla's discoveries and patents including most important about free energy generation which were concealed and classified by shadow (*hidden) U.S. governement -  nobody on this planet does not know how to replicate it - Does it mean that Biggest iinventor ever had been hoaxer and faker ??

Hint from Лев Николаевич Толстой

Delusion does not stop be delusion, from simple fact that vast majority of people were deluded.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 18, 2014, 12:17:23 AM
Hi guys interesting test replication from Mike at OUR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0WkZhCHyI8
 I want to play with this some more now. As Boyd Bushman loved saying, "follow the data theory be damned!"
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 18, 2014, 01:52:05 AM
@Marsing
We don't know if he's asked for money or not, all we know about money is that he hasn't asked for it here or on YT. He may be fishing for bigger fish, like Akula is. He could be using YouTube, and us, to perfect his technique.
OK, I hear that you aren't enough of a believer to rush out and start your own replication, and that is good. I hope anyone else who is thinking of doing so will also just wait and see what happens. There is no need to rush, thousands of Chinese engineers and hobbyists have already beaten you to the punch. I can tell you right now that there will be no real, believable test performed by this claimant, though.

@Poit: Oh, I am not either anywhere near being the "smartest person" on this forum. There are many posters here whom I respect and learn a lot from. I may only be a chapter ahead, sometimes a page ahead, sometimes even a page or two _behind_ the rest of the people here. I even think some of the people I often disagree with are smarter than I am, if a bit misguided   ;)   .  I'm not an electrical engineer but I think some of the posters here actually are, and have a deeper understanding of electronic circuits than I do, for sure. I just have a very sensitive BS detector, and a good education, that's all. And I definitely have my own set of blinders and cognitive biases. But thanks for the good words anyway.   :-[ (I'm blushing)

@Jimboot: thanks for posting Michael's video! That is a good one, and I left a long comment on the video. Michael's generator arrangement might almost be changed into a "nano-QEG" with a little rewiring.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 18, 2014, 04:18:21 AM
Hi guys interesting test replication from Mike at OUR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0WkZhCHyI8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0WkZhCHyI8)
 I want to play with this some more now. As Boyd Bushman loved saying, "follow the data theory be damned!"

Interesting, but if the windings are in series then placing magnets around the quadrants as N,S,N,S would tend to self cancel any voltage generated.
 
The windings would need to be changed to achieve maximum output and load.
Unless I'm missing something here?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Enjoykin on November 18, 2014, 08:51:22 AM
Hello people !!  :D

In my oppinion Syairchairun Generator is Cold Current Generator. There is only one way to generate cold current, Scalar Magnetic Filed Hs*.

What is Hs* = Scalar Magnetic Field ??

According to Genady Vasilevic Nikolaev Hs* is divergention of Vector Potential of Magnetic Filed = A. Hs* = -divA.

All artwork is in that where exist Scalar Magnetic Filed also exist Vector Magnetic Field H which is in fact transverse field and also product of A. In case of Vector Magnetic Field Hv is rotor of Vector Potential. Hv = rot A.

What we need is Cold Current. What is the Cold Current ??. Cold Current is gradient of Scalar Magnetic Filed.

i = - grad Hs*

How to make Scalar Magnetic Filed ?? We need to make Magnetic configuration known as Siberian Colia. Name has gave Dr.Stefan Marinov.

Take a look on pictures. This is Mind Food :D

ps: Yes there exist Two Magnetic Fileds, Two kind of Currents like two commponents of eternity. Simple experiment. Take a mirror and look yourself in mirror ?? Whay you see ? You see clear form of Chiral symmetry. Same is with currents, magnetic fields and all what her majesty Mother Nature has manufactured.  :D

Reg. enjoykin4
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dog-One on November 18, 2014, 09:36:39 AM
ps: Yes there exist Two Magnetic Fileds, Two kind of Currents like two commponents of eternity.

Always something new around the corner.  Thanks for the explanation and images.

Quote
The existence of longitudinal force is contrary to the laws of electrodynamics. This force is the result of the scalar magnetic field present at the site of cut magnets. Such a composite magnet called SIBERIAN COLIA.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 18, 2014, 07:15:12 PM

Interesting, but if the windings are in series then placing magnets around the quadrants as N,S,N,S would tend to self cancel any voltage generated.
 
The windings would need to be changed to achieve maximum output and load.
Unless I'm missing something here?

I just took apart such a fan motor (actually moments before I saw Michael's video) and the stator coils are connected in series but they are wound in alternate directions. That is, Coil 1 is wound clockwise viewed from the "top", Coil 2 is wound counterclockwise, #3 is CW and #4 is CCW. So when a pulse is given to the wiring, the coils produce alternate poles on the "tops" or outside of the stator, NSNS. 

Interestingly, the coils are wound with a "double strand" of very thin wire, perhaps AWG 42 or 44 (measured 0.0028 inch by micrometer), right together all the way around the structure, at least on the one I took apart. I failed to note how the "4 ends" were connected to the tiny circuit board though; I'll have to tear another one apart unless someone else knows the answer already. I presume that the two strands are connected in parallel but they could be connected in series to make a "tesla bifilar" winding. I doubt very much that they would be connected in "hairpin" series because this would cancel both inductance and produced field when the wire is pulsed.

I can't quite wrap my  head around how this winding scheme would respond as a generator if the external magnets are also alternating in polarity as I thought Michael stated in the video.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 18, 2014, 07:28:00 PM
I have done rather extensive experimentation, fifteen years ago, with the Siberian Coliu as described by Marinov and his mentor Nikolayev. I have actually seen a full copy of the rare book (in Russian) by Nikolayev where several interesting configurations of magnets are described. Jeffrey Kooistra, formerly Gene Mallove's (r.i.p.) assistant at Infinite Energy Magazine, tested such a configuration that he called the "Warlock's Wheel" and described the most interesting behaviours that he noted. These are so very unusual that many authors of papers on the Siberian Coliu, like Kelly, have either dismissed them as fake or don't even discuss them at all. But they are not fake, they are real. Sadly, in contradiction to Marinov and Nikolayev, these effects (which I have described elsewhere and which Kooistra also clearly describes) DO depend on ordinary flux leakage from the split magnet structure used as the rotating armature, and not the surrounding A-field. If anyone would like to dispute this statement of mine, please feel free to _demonstrate_ with your own carefully constructed Siberian Coliu motor.

Meanwhile, my Marinov Slab pulse motor simulates part of the system, translated into a continuous-rotation pulse motor, which (apparently) does NOT show the usual "armature back reaction" of a typical motor. That is, the rotor experiences an accelerating force which causes its rotation, but the stator structure doesn't (seem to) experience an equal back-reaction in the other direction.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on November 18, 2014, 07:50:48 PM
animation ....
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Enjoykin on November 19, 2014, 06:46:31 AM
Always something new around the corner.  Thanks for the explanation and images.

Hello Dog-One  :D

Quote
"The existence of longitudinal force is contrary to the laws of electrodynamics. This force is the result of the scalar magnetic field present at the site of cut magnets. Such a composite magnet called SIBERIAN COLIA."


I think correct formulation should be "The present laws of electrodynamics are contrary to longitudinal force".

Why ??

Because Scalar field is primary and real existing entity while " laws of electrodynamics" are nothing more than fiction of human mind.  :D

Expressed by a formula of Professor Dr.Genady Nikoalev longitudinal force is:

F= = H* I

H* is Scalar Magnetic Field and is divergention of Vector Potential A. Hs* = -divA.
I is current in the wire - vector.

Simple experiment which have done R.Sigalov is clear proof of existence of longitudinal forces.

It is a simple П frame contour with sliding contacts and current flowing through it. We can see that П frame contour is running at right side only by action of longitudinal forces. Direction of longitudinal forces is along conductors 2 and 4. In full correspondence with law of conservation impulse,  transverse force is append to conductors 1 and 5. This is experimentally fact which can repeat anybody. This fact can't be explained on other ways but only with existence and action of longitudinal force caused by H*= Scalar Magnetic Field. In zone of sliding contact at conductor 1 Scalar Magnetic Field H* will be positive while in zone of contact at conductor 5 will be negative. Because currents in conductors 2 and 4 are in opposite direction - longitudinal forces will combine together and make action in one direction pushing П frame contour to the right.

Reg.enjoykin
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Enjoykin on November 19, 2014, 07:20:46 AM
I have done rather extensive experimentation, fifteen years ago, with the Siberian Coliu as described by Marinov and his mentor Nikolayev. I have actually seen a full copy of the rare book (in Russian) by Nikolayev where several interesting configurations of magnets are described. Jeffrey Kooistra, formerly Gene Mallove's (r.i.p.) assistant at Infinite Energy Magazine, tested such a configuration that he called the "Warlock's Wheel" and described the most interesting behaviours that he noted. These are so very unusual that many authors of papers on the Siberian Coliu, like Kelly, have either dismissed them as fake or don't even discuss them at all. But they are not fake, they are real. Sadly, in contradiction to Marinov and Nikolayev, these effects (which I have described elsewhere and which Kooistra also clearly describes) DO depend on ordinary flux leakage from the split magnet structure used as the rotating armature, and not the surrounding A-field. If anyone would like to dispute this statement of mine, please feel free to _demonstrate_ with your own carefully constructed Siberian Coliu motor.

Meanwhile, my Marinov Slab pulse motor simulates part of the system, translated into a continuous-rotation pulse motor, which (apparently) does NOT show the usual "armature back reaction" of a typical motor. That is, the rotor experiences an accelerating force which causes its rotation, but the stator structure doesn't (seem to) experience an equal back-reaction in the other direction.

Hello TinselKoala  :D

In above experiment where is famous " flux leakage" from splitted magnetic fileds caused by flowing currents ??

Clearly there does not exist any " flux leakage" just like the same in your case. Effect was caused by Scalar Magnetic Field H which was caused by vector potential A. There is big difference.  Scalar Magnetic Field H* is not the same thing as Vector magnetic potential A. Vector potential is the source of Scalar Magnetic Field  H*not contrary. In my visualisation A is helicoidal stream of particles flowing through the aether.

Try finding and analyse patent of Hogan-Jakovlevich from 1950 with configuration of two Siberian Colia magnets rotating in opposite direction on same axis while basket weave coils are put between. To give you a clue - same is happened between plates of bipolar capacior under influence of alternate currents. Scalar Magnetic Field  H*was produced and flowing between capacitor plates. I said this because the same configuration had used L.Hendershot in his generator. Also in Mislavsky transformer !!

ps: I want to ask you if you have any interesting ideas about Scalar Magnetic Filed detector(s) ?? As i can conclude from your posts you have very much experience in electricity artwork!!

Reg.enjoykin !! :D
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 19, 2014, 01:59:59 PM
If anybody can find the measurements in details of the st series synchronous motors that would be great.

This needs to be made smartly and modular, precise to the motor itself.

I have just learned myself cad in the last few months

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 19, 2014, 10:39:47 PM
Mhm, seeing here much trolling and writing but no real attempts are not leading to any positive results...

Why people people can't make simplest experiment with cost under $50 to learn something new is also a good question.

The starting point - http://youtu.be/vtsHmE7_HDQ?t=55s (http://youtu.be/vtsHmE7_HDQ?t=55s)
The explanation of what is happening - http://www.rexresearch.com/gary/gary1.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/gary/gary1.htm)
The resulting bench test  - the stationary magnet in middle, the spinning pieces of iron on rotor with air gaps very close to the magnet (less or equal to 1mm) and the variable distance between coil and rotor for finding and experiencing Gary Magnetic effect then observing how it impacts Lenz force and cogging when generator coil is shorted..

That cost mostly only your time and is cheap in money wise to learn something what was missed out completely in mainstream science about magnetism since 1867...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 20, 2014, 12:50:31 AM
What if effect does not manifest through smaller mass device.

Following the logic of it all, and the fact that I saw a similar video, with a guy turning a massive gen with his hand and lighting a room full of lights (unrelated video)

I have good feeling about truthfullness of general concept.

A used ST china type motor is not expensive if a used one can be obtained, and they are standard size under many companies.

I come to this site once in a while to see if something new and exciting has shown up, for many years I watch for such high quality potential project to appear.

I rate this technology 10/10 in all departments if true.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ketone on November 20, 2014, 01:20:05 AM
Working on it.... :) . Im still needing to cut the iron rings into corresponding pole sizes....i was thinking on adding 4 more poles though to make it a total of 8 poles (any thoughts?). A little more turning yet on the lathe to get more clearance ...stay tuned! 8)

P.S. Thanks Chet,sorry...iphone size ...so lifelike
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on November 20, 2014, 01:45:19 AM
Hello
Ketone
can you re-size that beautiful pic a little _smaller_ Please,we have to run back and forth to read/see it.


thx
Chet
ps
Thank you
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 20, 2014, 02:43:10 AM
Ketone,
Nice, good to see another build under way.
 
Using a car alternator is a good inexpensive test setup but it is three phase and you might want to take this into account.
 
Possibly using 6 magnets and pole pieces instead of the four might match the windings better.
Since you asked  :)
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dog-One on November 20, 2014, 07:23:32 AM
Yes ketone, looking good.

Try to stay on point, you can always muck around changing things if the basic design doesn't pan out.


Looking forward to seeing this baby run.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 20, 2014, 08:46:37 AM
Me and Syar were communicating via email.

He was saying to me that he would send right away the cad fils then dissapeared.

It seems he has dissapeared now.

Can anybody remind me, a big question to ask is how to make this ''40 poles'' , if we are to choose like this, not 4 poles, how does numbr of center magnets affect the poles. You science nerds will surely bring out a wonderful jpeg illustration...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on November 20, 2014, 11:22:42 AM
I will convert this 3 phase alternator. Its almost new.

The position of the magnets is what is need to be solved.. I will post drawings of the possibilities..  I will try to make the center magnet stator that way to accommodate every possible combination.

All the rest is a mater of a precise machinery.

It will take some time for the magnets to arrive and also to construct the other parts.



Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 20, 2014, 11:30:15 AM
Here's where I'm at
http://youtu.be/fSIYmq6W_d0 (http://youtu.be/fSIYmq6W_d0)
http://youtu.be/jknKSEDtA5M (http://youtu.be/jknKSEDtA5M)
http://youtu.be/PbPm9-ZwCz8 (http://youtu.be/PbPm9-ZwCz8)
http://youtu.be/_zZHFLx4rZg (http://youtu.be/_zZHFLx4rZg)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 20, 2014, 11:52:14 AM
I will convert this 3 phase alternator. Its almost new.

The position of the magnets is what is need to be solved.. I will post drawings of the possibilities..  I will try to make the center magnet stator that way to accommodate every possible combination.

All the rest is a mater of a precise machinery.

It will take some time for the magnets to arrive and also to construct the other parts.
The placement of magnets can be done on same way as cores in center of fan motor. The rest of things are same as in http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43230#msg43230 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43230#msg43230)

P.S> The holding metal for magnets in the center should be nonmagnetic to avoid weakening the magnetic field strength of magnets...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on November 20, 2014, 12:37:44 PM
The placement of magnets can be done on same way as cores in center of fan motor. The rest of things are same as in http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43230#msg43230 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43230#msg43230)

P.S> The holding metal for magnets in the center should be nonmagnetic to avoid weakening the magnetic field strength of magnets...

magnet holder will be teflon and center stable bar will be aluminum (I hope)

Sure can be as core. just 2 poles NS. I ll test that option too.

 Also the magnets can be in two rows: 24 and 24 and be like:

nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...

or be 3 or 4 rows...


Syairchairun also states that he used 160 magnets 

""10*12*80 mm neody magnt, any 40 streets magnet NSNSNSNS""

so he probably use this 4 rows setup..

nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...
nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...

Who knows.. we need to test it by our selfs I guess



Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 20, 2014, 12:45:01 PM
Also the magnets can be in two rows: 24 and 24 and be like:

nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...

or be 3 or 4 rows...


Syairchairun also states that he used 160 magnets 

""10*12*80 mm neody magnt, any 40 streets magnet NSNSNSNS""

so he probably use this 4 rows setup..

nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...
nsnsnsnsnsns...
snsnsnsnsnsn...

Who knows.. we need to test it by our selfs I guess
The number of magnets = number of coil cores (then multiply to cover entire heigh of coil cores). The neighborhood magnet in opposite polarity over circle and the most possible placement is in middle between 2 coil cores (due original alternator design) so the spinning core would extend magnetic field and shorten it to each coil core in the edge.

If the placement of coil cores are too tight the number of magnets= number of coil cores / 2...

The spinning iron core makes temporary magnet from itself when passes between magnet and generator coil under load. So making bloch wall right in the middle of spinning core should make less drag as possible.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 20, 2014, 02:14:01 PM
Hmm, complications.
Who would have thought there is so much missing from this simple concept.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on November 20, 2014, 02:18:10 PM
The number of magnets = number of coil cores (then multiply to cover entire heigh of coil cores). The neighborhood magnet in opposite polarity over circle and the most possible placement is in middle between 2 coil cores (due original alternator design) so the spinning core would extend magnetic field and shorten it to each coil core in the edge.

If the placement of coil cores are too tight the number of magnets= number of coil cores / 2...

The spinning iron core makes temporary magnet from itself when passes between magnet and generator coil under load. So making bloch wall right in the middle of spinning core should make less drag as possible.

Exactly! Thanks T-1000, when I ll get close to that state, I ll post pictures of progress.

I plan to not use laminated steel as magnetic shield because is too much trouble and need lots of width for the screws. Actually I test laminated shield of 100mm width with magnet and soft steel of 5mm and the passing field was almost the same. (measuring the distance with attracted steel)The difference is less than 0.5mm.

So I plan to cut a peace of steel tube/pipe 5mm, longer than the lenth of the coil core complex but of exact diameter (leaving 1mm space from coil cores).. and open 4 windows
At the top and bottom of the pipe will be inserted the aluminum disks (on ball bearings) and secured with screws.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FatBird on November 20, 2014, 02:49:07 PM
It looks like Prototypes could be OPEN FRAME just to try things out.


                                                                    .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 20, 2014, 03:46:58 PM
l0stf0x,

Please do not confuse your 3 phase stator with Syair's 1 phase stator, the winding layout is completely different.
Your stator winding is designed for the number of poles on the original armature. You should design your new rotor to duplicate the original as much as possible, particularly the number of stator slots per pole (arc of the pole shoe). There is a specific design for your 3 phase alternator that demands a certain number of slots per phase per pole and the span on the stator coils is set for the pole arc and number of poles of the original armature. Using any other number of poles, or arc of the pole shoes, will give a poor output or no output at all.

This applies to any 3 phase generator/alternator being modified, including automotive alternators where you do not intend to rewind the stator.

The steel for the new rotor should be laminated electrical steel, non-oriented. Ordinary mild steel will not flip polarities quickly and completely enough.

Also the rotor poles should be magnetically isolated from each other, not connected with iron on the ends.

The magnetic circuit should travel in a loop from one pole through the stator, back through the next pole and return to the starting pole. That means steel at the core, not non-magnetic material.

Regards
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 20, 2014, 05:09:05 PM
l0stf0x,

Please do not confuse your 3 phase stator with Syair's 1 phase stator, the winding layout is completely different.
Your stator winding is designed for the number of poles on the original armature. You should design your new rotor to duplicate the original as much as possible, particularly the number of stator slots per pole (arc of the pole shoe). There is a specific design for your 3 phase alternator that demands a certain number of slots per phase per pole and the span on the stator coils is set for the pole arc and number of poles of the original armature. Using any other number of poles, or arc of the pole shoes, will give a poor output or no output at all.

This applies to any 3 phase generator/alternator being modified, including automotive alternators where you do not intend to rewind the stator.

The steel for the new rotor should be laminated electrical steel, non-oriented. Ordinary mild steel will not flip polarities quickly and completely enough.

Also the rotor poles should be magnetically isolated from each other, not connected with iron on the ends.

The magnetic circuit should travel in a loop from one pole through the stator, back through the next pole and return to the starting pole. That means steel at the core, not non-magnetic material.

Regards

Cadman,
I agree with your assessment of the 3 phase stator but believe there are additional problems.
The principal behind it's supposed operation has never been determined.

Is it operating from flux switching or flux shielding. Simply rotating magnetized iron through the stator is no different than rotating magnets themselves and will perform the same. (drag with load)
In fact the alternator itself rotates only the iron rotor that has been magnetized and of course feels the drag with load.

If the concept of shielding was used then each stator pole should have it's own magnet for each winding and the shield could slide between them.
In this case the winding would only see one polarity and may be better to have two magnet for each winding shielding each at separate times to provide alternating fields.

If the concept of flux switching was used then each winding should have two magnets and have them switch at separate times to provide alternating fields also.

The big problem is the original design was never shown in any detail.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 20, 2014, 06:33:05 PM
The big problem is the original design was never shown in any detail.

Exactly, but even his CAD drawing shows 4 pole shoes on each of the 2 stationary armatures. 162 magnets (2 he removed) with 5 rows per pole shoe (according to the drawing) with 4 magnets per row (according to Syair) = 160 magnets. I think the 40 poles he mentioned are these 40 rows of magnets.

But if Syair is to be believed then he did report success with his new version with the wound exciter coils too. 220V @ 55A.

And if he is to be believed then that style is the only one that could be used with a standard off the shelf stator (same number of poles as factory built) He did say that it took over 1 HP to turn the iron rotor (750 watts) and 320 watts for the exciter coils (80V @ 4A).
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 20, 2014, 07:21:17 PM
Exactly, but even his CAD drawing shows 4 pole shoes on each of the 2 stationary armatures. 162 magnets (2 he removed) with 5 rows per pole shoe (according to the drawing) with 4 magnets per row (according to Syair) = 160 magnets. I think the 40 poles he mentioned are these 40 rows of magnets.

Yes, but that configuration would require 1500 RPM for 50hz output and what he shows and states in the video is that the generator requires only 100 RPM.
The cogging would also be only 4 major positions per rev and the video shows about 36 cogs per rev.

So the video does not match what is shown in the drawings.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 20, 2014, 07:31:53 PM
So the video does not match what is shown in the drawings.

Right. The first video is supposed to be Ramadan's design, not Syair's. Personally, I am not going to waste my time trying to figure out what's inside Ramadan's motor. There is nothing to go on.

It's Syair's newer design that has my attention.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 20, 2014, 10:04:46 PM
Right. The first video is supposed to be Ramadan's design, not Syair's. Personally, I am not going to waste my time trying to figure out what's inside Ramadan's motor. There is nothing to go on.

It's Syair's newer design that has my attention.

Well at least we both understand what is going on here.
I don't believe that Syair's newer design will operate anything like what was shown because it simply rotates magnetized iron which is no different than rotating the magnets themselves.
 
You can easily just rotate a 3 phase motor with another motor and generate power which is only the iron rotating, but if you draw any current it will drag just the same as rotating magnets. So it's quite possible that Syair is building another generator with his plans and it will not operate as expected.
 
It would nice if I was wrong but his design is not new and provides for no OU.
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 20, 2014, 10:26:20 PM

Well at least we both understand what is going on here.
I don't believe that Syair's newer design will operate anything like what was shown because it simply rotates magnetized iron which is no different than rotating the magnets themselves.
 
You can easily just rotate a 3 phase motor with another motor and generate power which is only the iron rotating, but if you draw any current it will drag just the same as rotating magnets. So it's quite possible that Syair is building another generator with his plans and it will not operate as expected.
 
It would nice if I was wrong but his design is not new and provides for no OU.

If on CAD drawing (http://www.overunity.com/15088/new-generator-no-effect-lenzlaw-give-more-detail-in-pcture/dlattach/attach/144160/image//)  in another forum thread  (http://www.overunity.com/15088/new-generator-no-effect-lenzlaw-give-more-detail-in-pcture/msg423162/#msg423162) the W. Gary magnetic effect (http://www.keelynet.com/energy/garyp1-1.gif)  is followed there is different effect than moving magnet itself. The moving magnet changes polarity N to S and S to N while moving iron only exposes 1 magnetic pole and strenghens magnetic field while approaching then weakens it it when going away. The coil still will make same polarities but due iron remagnetization propery it will become N+N or N+S magnet for a time of changng magnetic field which is unstable in iron.  To see what is happening  there your best bet is a small scale testing unit with magnet, moving iron bar between magnet and shorted coil then seeing how it is working for real when W. Gary magnetic effect (http://www.keelynet.com/energy/garyp1-1.gif) is followed...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ekimtoor1 on November 20, 2014, 10:51:21 PM
I think this is on topic: http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/SpinningCylinder.htm

I'd be interested to read your comments on whether this is related to the effect being sought.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 20, 2014, 11:29:47 PM
I think this is on topic: http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/SpinningCylinder.htm (http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/SpinningCylinder.htm)

I'd be interested to read your comments on whether this is related to the effect being sought.
Thanks for that - a very interesting read.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 20, 2014, 11:31:53 PM
I think this is on topic: http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/SpinningCylinder.htm (http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/SpinningCylinder.htm)

I'd be interested to read your comments on whether this is related to the effect being sought.

Thanks, that was interesting find. :)

"It would seem Electronics techs have not been accurately informed, of a force present in electronics, which is 137 times more powerful then the magnetic field.
Namely the Strong Force found operating from the Proton shell inwards in physics.
This force has different qualities, which may not be apparent to an electronics engineer or technician. It operates from a spherical base to organize electric fields from a center of spin, or a center of torque.
It has ability to interact or to react to a moving magnetic field with 137 times the reflective power, and also to couple inertial forces between copper and iron elements.

These inertial fields are capable of transferring enough energy to hurl a magnet across the room at high velocity and smash it into the wall.
This is far more power then any two magnets can generate from their poles alone in repelling opposition.
Repelling poles of a magnetic field from iron, actually decouple this torsion force, and can be used to create magnetic bearings which are frictionless and will not transfer torque at all.
The copper generates a repelling force that couples the inertial spin also, and does not even bend the magnetic flux in the process."

The moving iron between copper coils and magnets just fit there as good as described in quote...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 21, 2014, 12:36:40 AM
I think this is on topic: http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/SpinningCylinder.htm (http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/SpinningCylinder.htm)

I'd be interested to read your comments on whether this is related to the effect being sought.

Probably not even close to the effect in the claimed generator.
In fact it's not even unusual!
The actual fact is that the copper does interact and bend the field, but the counter EMF is exactly matched and bends the field back to the same direction it was
before the encounter. So it simply appears like nothing happened!
It's always funny how easily people can convince their self of invalid concepts.
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 21, 2014, 01:03:18 AM
lumen (http://www.overunity.com/profile/lumen.10054/)
The truth is in practical tests, not in claims...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 21, 2014, 01:48:42 AM
lumen (http://www.overunity.com/profile/lumen.10054/)
The truth is in practical tests, not in claims...

T-1000
I read the work and see the test that was performed and what he said is true, it's only the conclusion of why that's wrong.
The rotating copper does drag on the field and would require that the field bend but it does not bend.
The reason is that the amount it would bend because of the interaction is exactly the amount it would bend back by the counter EMF generated in the copper.
So in the end the field did not bend, but there was no mysterious reason, it is fully accounted for.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Enjoykin on November 21, 2014, 09:38:22 AM
Hello people  :D

Hello l0stf0x
l0stf0x i think your configuration is wrong. I will not give advice like T1000 give on all threads but i think you should do some reading about genaration of Scalar Waves by Professor Dr. Genady Nikolaev and Dr.Stefan Marinov. I have found some important links: Download all documents, read and share it with all the other who are on same wavelenght with you.

Start with Deutsche Physik 1992, 1996 1993 (very important missing)
http://www.beinsa.info/index.php?option=com_jdownloads&Itemid=16&view=viewcategory&catid=70

DR.MARINOV VENETIN COLIU
http://nanoworld.org.ru/data/01/data/club/overuni/bht.htm

EPPUR SI MUOVE
A 3th edition of Marinov's book, originally peer reviewed by Andrew D. Sakharov (1977).

The MAGnetic Vortex hyper-Ionization Device (Scalar OU Generator)
http://www.beinsa.info/index.php?option=com_jdownloads&Itemid=57&view=viewcategory&catid=66
http://car-mitsuoka.ru/index.php?topic=1506.0
http://bourabai.kz/marinov/fmr.htm
http://ether.wikiext.org/wiki/Marinov_1992
http://www.forum.mista.ru/topic.php?id=411169&page=1
http://worldgathering.net/times/energy.htm
Marinov.zip
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=da1a3f37b4a826f9868981ea5df769d0&topic=2686.msg43192

ps: Shortly. This civilization know only to make B vector machines - not S scalar machines - (vector magnetic field is our enemy because generate lentz law and nobody will be able to make self-runners using B.) Scalar magnetic field is our friend because he annihilate lentz law and make machine free running. Scalar field it totaly different state of matter and source of real power of aether. One of old Russian physicist - member of G.V.Nikolaev team told that Dr.Stefan Marinov presented him in Sankt-Peterburg his MAGnetic Vortex hyper-Ionization Device couple of weeks before he was killed. He want to make public presentation on international Physics symposium 1997.

Reg.enjoykin
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on November 21, 2014, 10:32:08 AM
Hello people  :D

Hello l0stf0x
l0stf0x i think your configuration is wrong. I will not give advice like T1000 give on all threads but i think you should do some reading about genaration of Scalar Waves by Professor Dr. Genady Nikolaev and Dr.Stefan Marinov. They have been very good friends and both were.......
I have found some important links: Download all documents, read and share it with all the other who are on same wavelenght with you.

Start with Deutsche Physik 1992, 1996 1993 (very important missing)
http://www.beinsa.info/index.php?option=com_jdownloads&Itemid=16&view=viewcategory&catid=70

EPPUR SI MUOVE
A 3th edition of Marinov's book, originally peer reviewed by Andrew D. Sakharov (1977).

The MAGnetic Vortex hyper-Ionization Device (Scalar OU Generator)
http://www.beinsa.info/index.php?option=com_jdownloads&Itemid=57&view=viewcategory&catid=66
http://car-mitsuoka.ru/index.php?topic=1506.0
http://bourabai.kz/marinov/fmr.htm
http://ether.wikiext.org/wiki/Marinov_1992
http://www.forum.mista.ru/topic.php?id=411169&page=1
http://worldgathering.net/times/energy.htm

ps: Shortly. This civilization know only to make B vector machines - not S scalar machines - (vector magnetic field is our enemy because generate lentz law and nobody will be able to make self-runners using B.) Scalar magnetic field is our friend because he annihilate lentz law and make machine free running. Scalar field it totaly different state of matter and source of real power of aether.

Reg.enjoykin

Hi Enjoykin, I just saw your mesage..  I was ready to post some drawings on my new thinking..  please check it

(24 poles - 3 phase coils)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Enjoykin on November 21, 2014, 11:58:12 AM
Hello l0stf0x

I think it is good starting from some "simple" configurations.

Basic building block is Siberian Colia magnet. These are original concepts made by Dr.Genady V. Nikolaev. Main stuff most important is shielding Vector magnetic field B because it is OU enemy. Than you make several building blocks you can start further with simple experiments. S field can't be shielded but is present in same time with B field. Below is simple picture of Dr.Marinov S-machine (Siberian Colia Motor). S machine can work as motor or as generator.  Siberian Colia Magnet is Magnetic Quadrapole. S field can be positive or negative sign - same as B field.

Reg.

ps: What's happened with Syairchairun ??

Before several days he told me that he plan to present in public his Magnetic Configuration !! Also he told he has special magnetic configuration deep in his soft-iron rotor. In his case sof-iron rotor is B vector shield. Between stator and rotor should be as small air gap as possible. Also configuration and position of coils is very important.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 21, 2014, 01:49:13 PM
Hello l0stf0x

I think it is good starting from some "simple" configurations.

Basic building block is Siberian Colia magnet. These are original concepts made by Dr.Genady V. Nikolaev.

Hi,

The build you are describing involves scalar magnetic fields and this is completely different than was shown in video of first post.

Perhaps you can make different thread with all proposed designs or add it to http://www.overunity.com/14691/the-marinov-generator ?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 21, 2014, 01:55:46 PM
Hi Enjoykin, I just saw your mesage..  I was ready to post some drawings on my new thinking..  please check it

(24 poles - 3 phase coils)

The magnets should be all same ploarity in all raws and also you do need only middle magnets with air spacing from the sides... The coils are same over entire height and added magnets with different polarities at same time won't help much with induction.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Enjoykin on November 21, 2014, 02:21:29 PM
Hi,

The build you are describing involves scalar magnetic fields and this is completely different than was shown in video of first post.

Perhaps you can make different thread with all proposed designs or add it to http://www.overunity.com/14691/the-marinov-generator ?

What are you thnik - Who you are?? Why trolling my posts here ?? Another Amerian agent at this thred ?? Do you think it is easy jumping from one thread to another and disinform people which want to learn something new ?? And how do you dare to command me to go to another thread and make my posts there ??

Did you fallen from Mars ?? Or any other planet ??

I said and can confirm (and not only i). You also have confirmations of Dr.Marinov, Dr.Nikolaev and many real physicist (not main stream official liers) that:


THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE PERPETUM MOTION S MACHINE IS ONLY WITH THE HELP OF SCALAR MAGNETIC FIELD !! THERE DOES NOT EXIST OTHER WAYS !!

And i have not time to make stupid games with governements trolls here or everywhere !!
----------------------------------------

Clever man will take good advice from next text of Dr.Stefan Marinov.

From letter Dr.Marinov to Dr.Nikolaev

All point is that equation of Lorentz "go to pieces". Cylidrical magnet cutted at half in axial plane with one half rotated 180 degrees, make in vicinity of slit magnetic filed which operate on currents with longitudinal forces. According to equation of Lorents forces which magnet operate on current are always perpendicular to currents. Dr.Genady V.Nikolaev called this field Scalar Magnetic Filed. It has rendered that for 200 years research of magnetism there exist except Vector Magnetic Filed B, also Scalar Magnetic Field S. So on some current element operate TWO FORCES - Lorenz and Nikolaev.

f = f(lorentz) + f(nikolaev) = Idr x B/c + Idr•S/c

The most interesting result which show manifestation of Sclar Magnetic Filed is next.
As you already know with help of three fingers of your righrt hand you can show if piece of wire with sliding contacts at his ends moving in plane perpendicular to vector magnetic filed B, B is in perpendicular direction to wire moving, than here is started such kind of current induction which interrelation with B filed bring braking (deceleration) movement of wire. That is well known Lentz law and the first term in above equation is his methematical formulation. If now with help of only one finger of your right or left hand you try to determine where will be induced current in wire with sliding contacs which finger will move in longitudinal direction of wire in Scalar Magnetic field S,
you will be in wonder because the induced current will not breakingmovement of wire but will help accelerating wire. It can be called AntiLenz effect. Everybody can test that antilentz effect with help of Siberian Colia Magnet. From this can be easy concluded that with the help of Scalar Magnetic Filed you can make perpetual motion S machine.
etc.

Dr.Stefan Marinov.

ps: People do not feed the troll(s) and don not listen anybody especially governement trolls if you want to make OU generator.. Listen yourself - your mind and check-up all.

That's all from me!! You are on your own !!

Enjoykin
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 21, 2014, 02:45:38 PM
What are you thnik - Who you are?? Why trolling my posts here ?? Another Amerian agent at this thred ?? Do you think it is easy jumping from one thread to another and disinform people which want to learn something new ?? And how do you dare to command me to go to another thread and make my posts there ??

Did you fallen from Mars ?? Or any other planet ??

I said and can confirm (and not only i). You also have confirmations of Dr.Marinov, Dr.Nikolaev and many real physicist (not main stream official liers) that:


THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE PERPETUM MOTION S MACHINE IS ONLY WITH THE HELP OF SCALAR MAGNETIC FIELD !! THERE DOES NOT EXIST OTHER WAYS !!

And i have not time to make stupid games with governements trolls here or everywhere !!


I was not intended to negate or throw away work in other fields. There are many ways to Rome (free energy) and to keep it not mixed up is best way not to confuse people.
Also the one who deviate from original 1st post is not me and the http://www.overunity.com/14691/the-marinov-generator (http://www.overunity.com/14691/the-marinov-generator) is different from http://www.overunity.com/15088/new-generator-no-effect-lenzlaw-give-more-detail-in-pcture/ (http://www.overunity.com/15088/new-generator-no-effect-lenzlaw-give-more-detail-in-pcture/)

So who is trolling? :)

P.S> The personal insults won't work on me. Типичная руская психология - нашых никто небьют сдесь, так что безполезно нападать... ;)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on November 21, 2014, 02:55:58 PM
Enjoykin you infos are just excelent!! Thank you man! New ideas came to my head!! I ll be back


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 22, 2014, 03:48:40 AM
What are you thnik - Who you are?? Why trolling my posts here ?? Another Amerian agent at this thred ?? Do you think it is easy jumping from one thread to another and disinform people which want to learn something new ?? And how do you dare to command me to go to another thread and make my posts there ??

Did you fallen from Mars ?? Or any other planet ??

I said and can confirm (and not only i). You also have confirmations of Dr.Marinov, Dr.Nikolaev and many real physicist (not main stream official liers) that:


THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE PERPETUM MOTION S MACHINE IS ONLY WITH THE HELP OF SCALAR MAGNETIC FIELD !! THERE DOES NOT EXIST OTHER WAYS !!

And i have not time to make stupid games with governements trolls here or everywhere !!
----------------------------------------

Clever man will take good advice from next text of Dr.Stefan Marinov.

From letter Dr.Marinov to Dr.Nikolaev

All point is that equation of Lorentz "go to pieces". Cylidrical magnet cutted at half in axial plane with one half rotated 180 degrees, make in vicinity of slit magnetic filed which operate on currents with longitudinal forces. According to equation of Lorents forces which magnet operate on current are always perpendicular to currents. Dr.Genady V.Nikolaev called this field Scalar Magnetic Filed. It has rendered that for 200 years research of magnetism there exist except Vector Magnetic Filed B, also Scalar Magnetic Field S. So on some current element operate TWO FORCES - Lorenz and Nikolaev.

f = f(lorentz) + f(nikolaev) = Idr x B/c + Idr•S/c

The most interesting result which show manifestation of Sclar Magnetic Filed is next.
As you already know with help of three fingers of your righrt hand you can show if piece of wire with sliding contacts at his ends moving in plane perpendicular to vector magnetic filed B, B is in perpendicular direction to wire moving, than here is started such kind of current induction which interrelation with B filed bring braking (deceleration) movement of wire. That is well known Lentz law and the first term in above equation is his methematical formulation. If now with help of only one finger of your right or left hand you try to determine where will be induced current in wire with sliding contacs which finger will move in longitudinal direction of wire in Scalar Magnetic field S,
you will be in wonder because the induced current will not breakingmovement of wire but will help accelerating wire. It can be called AntiLenz effect. Everybody can test that antilentz effect with help of Siberian Colia Magnet. From this can be easy concluded that with the help of Scalar Magnetic Filed you can make perpetual motion S machine.
etc.

Dr.Stefan Marinov.

ps: People do not feed the troll(s) and don not listen anybody especially governement trolls if you want to make OU generator.. Listen yourself - your mind and check-up all.

That's all from me!! You are on your own !!

Enjoykin


T-1000 was trying to help enjoykin not hinder. A very interesting discussion. Thank you both for your input

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 22, 2014, 04:02:02 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Ea8xVt0yk&list=PLO6FJVqlxatfTY0QlElqDZNK4yE4jU3z8

I never saw this video before, but this is the third similar video I see like this.

I bet this is Syar arrangement.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dog-One on November 22, 2014, 09:14:28 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Ea8xVt0yk

I never saw this video before, but this is the third similar video I see like this.

I bet this is Syar arrangement.

Somewhere out there in the underground is the secret to how this works or at least how to make modifications to off-the-shelf components.

However, I don't think anyone would pony up $49 to get plans for the 12KW generator advertised here:  http://diymagneticmotor.com/

I have a feeling if we could get just one guy that knows, to carefully walk us through this, we'd be all set.

Maybe it really is as simple as:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohvlXleq5ro
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on November 22, 2014, 09:51:20 AM

 Also he told he has special magnetic configuration deep in his soft-iron rotor.



Hi Enjoykin, Do you have any more info about that? What you think he mean? special structure of the material? premagnetized? ??

http://www.pennstatehershey.org/c/document_library/get_file?folderId=1176176&name=DLFE-15206.pdf
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 22, 2014, 03:59:05 PM
So here we are. Another thread derailed before any meaningful discussions or tests are done with the original design.

Instead all the experts have weighed in and denounced it as a hoax and now we see “replications” that have no resemblance to the actual device proposed.


Tell us, all you 'experts' and replicators:

What is the pole arc of the exciters?

What is the pole pitch of the iron rotors?

What is the ratio of pole arc to pole pitch? Is it the same for both the exciters and rotors?

How many stator coil slots are there? How many are used?

What winding pattern is used in the stator for either 1 phase or 3 phase?

Where is slot #1 of the stator winding in relation to a stationary exciter pole? Is that important?

Does the winding start above a N or S pole? Does it start as clockwise or counter clockwise? Does it matter?

How many degrees does the iron rotate before the polarity flips?

Does the rotating iron flip polarity while it is influencing a coil loop? If it does then how many coil sides of how many loops are affected? One, or more than one? How would that affect the output?

None of you know the answers because you haven't designed or tested anything resembling the concept of the original device.


Yet we are being told by the experts here that it can't work, it's obviously a scam, and others are claiming to possess confidential information and know the secret of why it works.

Bah!

Now go on, ignore what I wrote. Build something that doesn't resemble the original and prove that it doesn't work.






Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on November 22, 2014, 04:29:10 PM
An idea to rotate the iron separators on a fixed shaft using an open frame design.
The pullys then could be rotated using a belt
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 22, 2014, 06:43:04 PM
So here we are. Another thread derailed before any meaningful discussions or tests are done with the original design.


Now go on, ignore what I wrote. Build something that doesn't resemble the original and prove that it doesn't work.

Cadman,
Yes, that is exactly the problem. No one was ever given the plans to the ORIGINAL design.
The plans given are not what was demonstrated in the original video so building the original plans is simply an unknown design.
 
I'm sure there are some working on this to try and re-discover the demonstrated device.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 22, 2014, 06:51:20 PM
I'm sure there are some working on this to try and re-discover the demonstrated device.


Yes, there are silent builders trying to apply W. Garry magnetic effect in generator as this can be easily guessed from CAD drawings in another thread and that looks most logical one...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 22, 2014, 09:04:24 PM
Yes, even the Ecklin generator is simple and easy to build.
I wonder how many have built this and are now enjoying free energy?
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 23, 2014, 12:19:50 AM
Here. You can see a lot from this design version. Print it out and make cut-outs or draw it in your CAD,  just do it.

You will not understand this generator unless you understand the magnetic circuit and flux.

The 4 poles are NSNS, N to S to N to S every 90 degrees.

The flux circuits are loops from one exciter pole through the rotor to the outer stator and back through the rotor to an opposite pole then returning to the first pole through the armature.

The flux will flow in the path of least resistance and will divide proportionally from a N pole to the two adjacent S poles. The longer the path is, the more resistance it encounters and that includes size of air gaps and length of the path through iron. You don't have to be accurate to the decimal place, where the majority of the flux goes will be obvious to see as you rotate the iron and adjust the flow proportions according to the magnetic circuit resistances.

Rote the iron rotor and draw the magnetic circuit flux lines. Note how and when they change and where they go to. Do it. The flux is the heart and soul of it.

The winding in the drawing is one phase of a three phase winding. Slot #1 is the start of the first black line at about 11:00. Move the starting position around and note how the magnetic circuit will influence it as the rotor moves.

The winding layout is included in a pdf. This winding is not the one Syair used but it is educational. Experiment with different windings. Keep track of the electrical current direction as things move. It will be toward you or away from you in the slot at the end of each colored line.
Vary the size and shape of the exciter poles and the rotor irons and see how that changes everything.
Think about where you want the flux to go and when you want it to go there.
Determine for yourself if this design is even suitable for a 3 phase gen or is 1 phase the best way to go.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 23, 2014, 12:43:05 AM

Stefan does your forum software have a "like" button?

So here we are. Another thread derailed before any meaningful discussions or tests are done with the original design.

Instead all the experts have weighed in and denounced it as a hoax and now we see “replications” that have no resemblance to the actual device proposed.


Tell us, all you 'experts' and replicators:

What is the pole arc of the exciters?

What is the pole pitch of the iron rotors?

What is the ratio of pole arc to pole pitch? Is it the same for both the exciters and rotors?

How many stator coil slots are there? How many are used?

What winding pattern is used in the stator for either 1 phase or 3 phase?

Where is slot #1 of the stator winding in relation to a stationary exciter pole? Is that important?

Does the winding start above a N or S pole? Does it start as clockwise or counter clockwise? Does it matter?

How many degrees does the iron rotate before the polarity flips?

Does the rotating iron flip polarity while it is influencing a coil loop? If it does then how many coil sides of how many loops are affected? One, or more than one? How would that affect the output?

None of you know the answers because you haven't designed or tested anything resembling the concept of the original device.


Yet we are being told by the experts here that it can't work, it's obviously a scam, and others are claiming to possess confidential information and know the secret of why it works.

Bah!

Now go on, ignore what I wrote. Build something that doesn't resemble the original and prove that it doesn't work.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ARMCORTEX on November 23, 2014, 02:52:47 AM
T-1000, where is the thread and images you speak of, the cad drawings.

Cadman, how is the st-series of motor wound according to you.

An unmodified one stator of a chinese motor presented here will be my starting point.

These words by Syar lead me to conclusion that this is a motor as well, how to make it so, ''BEMF actually helps rotation'' ?



Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 23, 2014, 04:47:29 AM
Cadman, how is the st-series of motor wound according to you.

I wish I knew for certain. All I do know is that it is two parallel single phase 110V windings and the one in Syair's second video has 45 stator slots and 5 of them are empty. I stumbled onto a Chinese patent for a stator winding yesterday that might be for these generators, it said each coil is identical and wound in a way that minimizes the amount of copper used. I don't know if I can find it again as I was on lunch at work. I know that sounds like a cop-out but it's true. I'll check the browser history when I get back to work.

If you or anyone here has one of these single phase ST generators and would chart out the coil layout for us I'm sure a lot of people here would find it useful. The ST winding configuration could even be crucial to the success of this gen.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: d3x0r on November 23, 2014, 05:08:04 AM
I wish I knew for certain. All I do know is that it is two parallel single phase 110V windings and the one in Syair's second video has 45 stator slots and 5 of them are empty. I stumbled onto a Chinese patent for a stator winding yesterday that might be for these generators, it said each coil is identical and wound in a way that minimizes the amount of copper used. I don't know if I can find it again as I was on lunch at work. I know that sounds like a cop-out but it's true. I'll check the browser history when I get back to work.

If you or anyone here has one of these single phase ST generators and would chart out the coil layout for us I'm sure a lot of people here would find it useful. The ST winding configuration could even be crucial to the success of this gen.
ya including the inner 4 coils...





Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dog-One on November 23, 2014, 06:00:14 AM
If you or anyone here has one of these single phase ST generators and would chart out the coil layout for us I'm sure a lot of people here would find it useful. The ST winding configuration could even be crucial to the success of this gen.

Just a thought...

For those that go with a factory single phase 4-pole stator, try to make your inner core adjustable with some sort of angle dial indicator.  I don't think anyone knows for sure what the proper alignment is between the fixed inner core and the fixed stator winding.  It's quite possible this angular adjustment will allow optimization at different RPM and load conditions.  I'd be willing to bet there are several sweet spots having tight tolerances of just a few degrees.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 23, 2014, 09:06:51 AM
At 40v now with a small pu coil. I will be adding another three. Hopefully the effect is linear. Amps are pretty low so I'm just focusing on max the voltage. Uploading new vid now. I find when I put the coil between two poles it gets its greatest voltage. Also the bigger mags get greater voltage.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on November 23, 2014, 09:21:32 AM
Yes, even the Ecklin generator is simple and easy to build.
I wonder how many have built this and are now enjoying free energy?
No one
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 23, 2014, 09:56:52 AM
I was re-reading the wesley gary paper http://www.rexresearch.com/gary/gary1.htm posted by T-1000 and decided to try a different coil position. Just cracked 100v with a single coil. I want 1kv now :) I think I'll need at least 10watts..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 23, 2014, 09:57:53 AM
Here is the earlier video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya3JmneZIVQ apologies for the camera work. I think I have that sorted now.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 23, 2014, 10:35:02 AM
T-1000, where is the thread and images you speak of, the cad drawings.
I am referring to thread in this forum and the links posted above.
Also I posted my conceptual design in overunityreseach forum if you are keen on building prototype...
 http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.new;topicseen#new
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 23, 2014, 10:53:03 AM
and here it is at 100v https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrZhCw5EAhY
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Grumage on November 23, 2014, 07:46:11 PM
Dear All.

Gary effect in action !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACykTfXspfM

Anyone got any ideas how to go auto ??    :)

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 23, 2014, 08:08:39 PM
Dear All.

Gary effect in action !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACykTfXspfM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACykTfXspfM)

Anyone got any ideas how to go auto ??    :)

Cheers Grum.
I suppose you could start out by adding weight on the shield lever to balance it out.
Then you can determine better the interaction and how it's influenced by the other parts.
 
If the shield is drawn into the gap by itself and released by it's interaction, I suppose you would have something.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on November 23, 2014, 09:09:23 PM
Yes, even the Ecklin generator is simple and easy to build.
I wonder how many have built this and are now enjoying free energy?

I am working on a similar design..

In my opinion the generator we discussing at this thread is different from Ecklin generator. The different setup depends by the shielding type.

We have to decide what is the "purpose of the shield" on similar designs.

We want to transfer magnetic field or we want to eliminate the magnetic field?

At Ecklin generator the shielding is used as eliminator (not very thick magnetically in conduct with its opposite shield).
At the generator we discuss in this thread use its shield as magnetic field transporter (so the shield has to be as close to coils as possible much thicker and insulated from the other shields).
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on November 23, 2014, 09:54:20 PM
Grum
Quote
Gary effect in action !!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACykTfXspfM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACykTfXspfM)


------------------------------
Grum
this Claim revolves around a switching effect ,where you feel there is a neutral "window"created that
can be Utilized to run with Gain [higher than original input?]??


is this correct ?


thx
Chet
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Grumage on November 23, 2014, 10:01:53 PM
Grum
Quote
Gary effect in action !!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACykTfXspfM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACykTfXspfM)


------------------------------
Grum
this Claim revolves around a switching effect ,where you feel there is a neutral "window"created that
can be Utilized to run with Gain [higher than original input?]??


is this correct ?


thx
Chet

Dear ramset.

In a nutshell, yes !!

However T-1000 can explain it far better than I, I'm better with spanners !!   :)

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 23, 2014, 11:07:11 PM
this Claim revolves around a switching effect ,where you feel there is a neutral "window"created that
can be Utilized to run with Gain [higher than original input?]??


is this correct ?


thx
Chet

The iron bar has no resistance entering or leaving zone. The magnets get full force when the magnetic field poles switch on iron bar... So you have simple magnetic switch with output force far greater than input force. The energy comes directly from magnets so no physics "laws" are broken, just the basic magnetic forces are utilized in smart way... :)

Also that still leaves open question for conventional theorists - where energy comes from to magnets to keep them having magnetic field for a life of man (it still decays)...
Just personally I would not worry about answering that question before making practical use of energy from magnets.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Heisenberg on November 23, 2014, 11:29:06 PM
Guys,

Been lurking in the forum the past few days and felt inspired to post an idea. Syair's generator appears to show stationary coils and stationary magnets with moving soft iron between the two, presumably to 'disrupt' the stationary magnetic flux in order that the stationary coils 'see' a moving flux. From the coils relative perspective, it cannot differentiate between a moving magnet and a disrupted field of a stationary magnet - it will develop an output voltage proportional to the rate of flux change and the number of turns.

It ought to be a simple matter to verify such a scheme by constructing something along the following lines - has this (or similar) been done previously?

H.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Heisenberg on November 23, 2014, 11:32:29 PM
Guys,

Apologies for the large jpegs and double post - not quite got the hang of forum posting!!

H.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 24, 2014, 01:17:02 AM
This design appears to be somewhere between the Ecklin and Gary designs.
 
It's a flux switcher like Gary design but also shields in a balanced way like the Ecklin design.
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: albator10 on November 24, 2014, 03:11:30 AM
Guys,

Been lurking in the forum the past few days and felt inspired to post an idea. Syair's generator appears to show stationary coils and stationary magnets with moving soft iron between the two, presumably to 'disrupt' the stationary magnetic flux in order that the stationary coils 'see' a moving flux. From the coils relative perspective, it cannot differentiate between a moving magnet and a disrupted field of a stationary magnet - it will develop an output voltage proportional to the rate of flux change and the number of turns.

It ought to be a simple matter to verify such a scheme by constructing something along the following lines - has this (or similar) been done previously?

H.

Yes it was done in the past

They call it a Low Lenz or Lenzless generator:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoWMFDDL1AU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--SpdiJEmeo
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on November 24, 2014, 05:24:39 AM
Dear All.

Gary effect in action !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACykTfXspfM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACykTfXspfM)

Anyone got any ideas how to go auto ??    :)

Cheers Grum.
Sure. You will never get it to self-loop using a mechanical linkage though, but it would be relatively trivial to set up a drive coil system to replace "Mister Hand" and trigger the coil off of a sensor looking at the see-saw part. It won't take much power either, maybe even something as wimpy as my PerPenduPetulum driver would be enough to tip the balance as you are doing.
You can't feel the force you are putting in with your finger because it's so small, but it's there all right. Try simulating a load, like a generator coil would produce, say by attaching a couple of rubber bands to the rightmost ends of the teeter totter so that the updown motion stretches the bands a little, and you will probably be able to feel the increased drive force necessary to move the shunt plate with your finger.

ETA: I see that people are referring to the part you are moving by hand as a "shield". It's a funny kind of shield though, being a high-permeability piece of transformer iron, that actually works by "sucking in" the field from the magnets. It is actually a magnetic shunt, that channels the field into itself, and makes less of the overall field available to affect the moving see-saw parts when it is in the middle position of its travel. In my way of using language, a "shield" would have zero permeability and would truly keep flux _out_ rather than sucking it in.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Heisenberg on November 24, 2014, 10:44:02 AM
Quote
Yes it was done in the past

They call it a Low Lenz or Lenzless generator:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoWMFDDL1AU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--SpdiJEmeo

Thanks Albator10, for the interesting links; just proves the old saying 'there is nothing new under the sun'!

Cheers,

H.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 24, 2014, 01:40:20 PM
For a balanced generator there's good example in Muller dynamo in RomeoUK implementation so the wheel was spinning free even there was neodymium magnets involved. Just in this case the moving parts are iron bars which cover both magnetic poles and coil core before reaching opposite magnetic polarity and one of stator disks have magnets instead of coils. It should be not too complicated to build test unit like that for seeing W. Gary magnetic effect in action...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on November 24, 2014, 03:02:39 PM
Hi Grumage,

Nice test build.

Attached is an idea for a linear version.

The iron plate would have to be placed a little over the neutral line to create a opposite polarity.

Initially the drive magnet will pull upwards attracted to the fixed magnet. As the iron plate comes down it reverses polarity
making the drive magnet drop back down hitting the lever repeating the cycle (if it doesn't stick somewhere) :) .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Enjoykin on November 24, 2014, 05:03:27 PM
T-1000 stop flooding on this thread,

This is Syairchairun's theme about his OU generator -  not topic about magnetic levers and tricks with B-field. !!

His OU generator is in fact S-machine (Scalar generator) using Dr.Nikolaev and Dr.Marinov formulation.

As i have found your parallel posts on 3 independent forums.  This is not normal reaction for human but quite @normal@ for governement trolls.

Your trolling is very skilful and you are many years in this @governement issue@.
You are continuously running water on your watermill - from topic to topic.

That's all people.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Enjoykin on November 24, 2014, 05:37:58 PM

Hi Enjoykin, Do you have any more info about that? What you think he mean? special structure of the material? premagnetized? ??

http://www.pennstatehershey.org/c/document_library/get_file?folderId=1176176&name=DLFE-15206.pdf

Hello l0stf0x  :D

No - I have not. I am waiting Syairchairun to come again here and present Magnetic Poles configuration. So i know he is using some magnetic configuration inside soft iron rotor. All other is trivial. Magnetic configuration in his setup is KEY for OVERUNITY in S-MACHINE. And am sure 99% that he is using one of SIBERIAN COLIA CONFIGURATION.

I was reading spanish patent of Hogan-Jakovlevic from 1950 and found exactly configuration like in Dr.Marinov S-machine. Only one stuff here is ENIGMA. Some kind of plate (grid) between TWO SIBERIAN COLIA MAGNETS IN ANTIPHASE. If you put simple copper silever or gold plate (grid) between you will get nothing - already was tested on our Russian forum. I am searching for similar Tesla setup to associate with SECRET GRID FORM. For now only Tesla Basket Coil (Bifilar type) come to my mind. What about if the whole trick is in "bread and butter bifilar sandwich" ?. I know Ismael Aviso using Tesla Pancake Bifilar sandwich of many coils as RADIANT COLLECTOR in his OU generator.

Now i show you how Scalar Magnetic Field exactly look in visible spectrum. Picture below is early borned young star in Perun constellation -  (known as Eagle constalation 1 of 16 constalations visible from our planet.) You can see Star Toroid which is perfect source of Scalar Magnetic Filed. Maximum of Scalar field is at center and going on two opposite sides of toroid. Vector magnetic field B was trapped inside toroid and can't escape nowhere. This is the case with any perfect toroid. Look on the colour fountains at both sides of toroid. They track configuration of Star Scalar Magnnetic field. But real configuartion is very complex because we need to see complete spectra from 0Hz to 1034Hz for real configuration and dynamics of Star Scalar Field. Picture is from Japanese telescope month ago.

Here on our site http://www.tesladevice.ru/forum you will find many interesting videos and experiments about Scalar Magnetic Field of Dr. Genady V.Nikolaev

https://clck.ru/9NAez

Two non valid experiments - Spanish patent from 1950 225315
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WmS1I7b6ws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mANxFntqCA

In my oppinion succession of experiments here need to be done from simple to complex configurations.

For starting experiments should be used single bare wire conneced with both ends to oscilloscope. There should be used diferentials probes. Than experiments with two wires with two differential probes. All configuration angles shoudl be tested and interesting envelopes recorded for analyse. Than experiment with 3 bare wires and 3 differential probes. After all of this shoud be tested some of  braiding grid configuration. For example zigzag configuration of two isolated conductors with appropriate ange. Example Handershot Basket weave coils, Tesla bifilar pancake coils, Hooper pancake coils. If there is positive result than shoud be tested some of basic Platon Solids geometric bodies and shapes. One of variant can be rotating grid made from copper, soft iron or maybe gold - like in Syairchairun setup.

One thing i know - IT MUST BE PERFECTLY SIMPLE - because Mother nature never had made complex stuffs or in my free interpretation looking from her point of view -  Human entities are also SIMPLE STUFFS (configurations)  same like MOTHER UNIVERSE !!  :D

Reg,
enjoykin
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on November 24, 2014, 08:22:04 PM
Thank you very much Enjoykin, your explanation is more than perfect..!! Just great info for learn think and practice .. !!  :D

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 24, 2014, 09:15:23 PM
T-1000 stop flooding on this thread,

This is Syairchairun's theme about his OU generator -  not topic about magnetic levers and tricks with B-field. !!

His OU generator is in fact S-machine (Scalar generator) using Dr.Nikolaev and Dr.Marinov formulation.

As i have found your parallel posts on 3 independent forums.  This is not normal reaction for human but quite @normal@ for governement trolls.

Your trolling is very skilful and you are many years in this @governement issue@.
You are continuously running water on your watermill - from topic to topic.

That's all people.

From now I will be ignoring your posts. Getting called as troll second time is not fun anymore and the Marinov setup has nothing related to Syairchairun's setup. If you are blind not seeing that in http://www.overunity.com/15088/new-generator-no-effect-lenzlaw-give-more-detail-in-pcture/dlattach/attach/144160/image// (http://www.overunity.com/15088/new-generator-no-effect-lenzlaw-give-more-detail-in-pcture/dlattach/attach/144160/image//) (posted by syairchairun (http://www.overunity.com/profile/syairchairun.102722/) in http://www.overunity.com/15088/new-generator-no-effect-lenzlaw-give-more-detail-in-pcture/msg423162/#msg423162 (http://www.overunity.com/15088/new-generator-no-effect-lenzlaw-give-more-detail-in-pcture/msg423162/#msg423162) ) that is your personal problem...

P.S> When something really working appear in forums then always there will be people to derail original information to something else so no one can repeat original setup.. Think twice before doing that.
Also Grum did prove point what is happening when there is moving iron bar between two magnets (the coil is alternating magnet) in his https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACykTfXspfM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACykTfXspfM) so now back to original syairchairun (http://www.overunity.com/profile/syairchairun.102722/) build and making replication... My posts was even one step further for making it magnetically balanced but it might be too early in time at this point. Will see in few months.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 25, 2014, 04:55:07 PM
T-1000,

I haven't spent much time trying to magnetically balance this since Syair reported only 750 watts were needed to rotate his 10KW build. I wonder just how much time should be spent on it. He used the stock stator and exciter poles and coils after all.

How many have considered the stator coils and the span they cover in the winding on the stator?  Those coils are electromagnets and produce their own magnetic field and their own N & S poles pointing at the center of the generator. They are temporary and vary in intensity according to the current draw of the output. Maybe these are what provide the variable impetus that keeps the rotor going.

I mean, if this really has to be magnetically balanced then there is more to it than the exciters and iron rotors.

Maybe the inertia of several pounds of iron rotors spinning at 1500 RPM coupled with the fields from the poles and the stator already does the job.


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: albator10 on November 25, 2014, 07:40:26 PM
Who know the exact model and power of the generator that syairchairun is using ?

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FatBird on November 26, 2014, 11:56:01 PM
                                                                                                                                       .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 27, 2014, 11:38:41 AM
Now getting 140v and using a MOT coil can dimly light an incandescent - no real measurements yet just a demo of how I have achieved the extra volts.. oh yeah and everything falls apart at the end ... literally (for the Americans that means it actually does fall apart)  - uploading video now.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on November 27, 2014, 06:35:26 PM
Who know the exact model and power of the generator that syairchairun is using ?

It is a generic 4 pole generator 220 volts 1600 rpm there are dozens of them on alibaba they are all the same and very affordable.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on November 27, 2014, 07:51:06 PM
.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on November 27, 2014, 09:17:13 PM
.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on November 27, 2014, 10:13:56 PM
Who know the exact model and power of the generator that syairchairun is using ?

From what I can read it is 10 KW 40.5 amp 220 volts and 1500 or 1600 rpm, cannot make out the phase looks like a 1, from wiring out seems to be single phase....

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: albator10 on November 28, 2014, 06:17:52 AM
From what I can read it is 10 KW 40.5 amp 220 volts and 1500 or 1600 rpm, cannot make out the phase looks like a 1, from wiring out seems to be single phase....

Something similar to this one :

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/10KW-ST-Generator-Head-1-Phase-for-Diesel-or-Gas-Engine-60Hz-/331362857668?pt=BI_Generators&hash=item4d26c3f2c4
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 28, 2014, 12:22:09 PM
Two coils attached much brighter glow now. Still not detecting any bemf that I would have expected lighting an incandescent. My plan now is to load as many coils on to thing as I can.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 28, 2014, 04:18:53 PM
I will add some a bit off topic but it is required to wake up sceptics for starting thinking about "grey" areas between white and black of current physics "laws":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiI22CdBbv4&list=UUzWA3ov9kcza5XxtHh-lM7Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiI22CdBbv4&list=UUzWA3ov9kcza5XxtHh-lM7Q)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OobiPEZN6vQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OobiPEZN6vQ)

Due no other input from author of this thread, people are figuring out themselves... There is some deviation from design shown with step forward collectively thought and experimented with in http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.0 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.0) (sorry forum trolls, you cannot hijack it  8) )
Taking whole understanding how it works and shifting it to the level where no external motor is required is a target :) Like  E. Leedskalnin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Leedskalnin) had back in 1930s in his generator (http://www.leedskalnin.com/Generator.jpg) ... Then there will be no doubts left about input power usage and power output I hope...

Cheers!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 28, 2014, 06:19:03 PM
Still traveling down my own road here... not trying to negate any laws of physics, just making them work for us.

How does this generator assist with it's own motive force? We already see how the rotor is attracted toward the next pole once it is past the cogging point, positively aiding the rotor rotation.

Here's another piece of the answer.

Anyone who has ever applied full power to a loose motor knows the resulting force is applied to both the armature and the stator.

In the picture below,
F = force, Nm
I = current, amps
B = magnetic strength, Teslas
h = length of red wire in meters

F = IhB

The result is a force F out of the screen acting on the wire, the basic principle of electric motors.

In this generator, the magnetic source X and the red wire carrying a current I are locked in position and can not move.

The wire carrying current I sees only a magnetic force from a temporary magnetic source, rotor Y.

The resulting force F is applied to rotor Y forcing it into the screen.


One question is, which rule will assert itself here, Fleming's right hand or left hand rule? I think it will be the left hand rule because the current in the wire is the sum of that induced in itself plus the currents from all other coils wired to it in series. In other words the current in the wire is greater than the current induced in that one wire. Experimenting will tell.

Next, where to place the wires in the stator slots and how to connect them together in order to have the current flowing in the right direction at the right place to assist the rotor past the cogging point must be determined.

Getting real close to a build here..
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 28, 2014, 06:35:16 PM
Still traveling down my own road here... not trying to negate any laws of physics, just making them work for us.

How does this generator assist with it's own motive force? We already see how the rotor is attracted toward the next pole once it is past the cogging point, positively aiding the rotor rotation.

Here's another piece of the answer.

Anyone who has ever applied full power to a loose motor knows the resulting force is applied to both the armature and the stator.

In the picture below,
F = force, Nm
I = current, amps
B = magnetic strength, Teslas
h = length of red wire in meters

F = IhB

The result is a force F out of the screen acting on the wire, the basic principle of electric motors.

The answer is right here. If you reach net balance of magnetic forces  on shorted coil when approaching iron bar has magnetic polarity from magnet to be same as the iron bar with flipped polarity from other magnet when it is going away from coil, the solution in coil is this:
"I = current, amps"
Make it less with help of increased resistance on wire on magnetic flux increase in the coil and no resistance on reversal. This will unbalance magnetic forces and the deflecting net force will be greater on the iron bar going away than on incoming. This will create one way pushing net force... So no basic physics principles are broken here :)

P.S> For creating such circumstances there is my explanation in http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43430#msg43430
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on November 29, 2014, 01:14:01 AM
T-1000,

No, sorry, that is not what I described, at all. Syair's gen, the one I am working on, has no resemblance to the Thane Hiens device either.

Over at overunityresearch you are talking about the moment of polarity flip of the rotor. This motor force on the rotor is separate from that.

Btw, you left out the the important part in your quote
Quote
The result is a force F out of the screen acting on the wire, the basic principle of electric motors.

In this generator, the magnetic source X and the red wire carrying a current I are locked in position and can not move.

The wire carrying current I sees only a magnetic force from a temporary magnetic source, rotor Y.

The resulting force F is applied to rotor Y forcing it into the screen.

Cheers
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on November 29, 2014, 04:26:54 AM
T-1000,

No, sorry, that is not what I described, at all. Syair's gen, the one I am working on, has no resemblance to the Thane Hiens device either.

Over at overunityresearch you are talking about the moment of polarity flip of the rotor. This motor force on the rotor is separate from that.

Btw, you left out the the important part in your quote
Cheers
There is no connection to Thane Hiens device there. Also as I mentioned above, this description is not about Syair's gen either. ;) The W. Gary effect + balanced wheel by means of magnetic forces is a deviation from first post in thread so it is on other forum...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on November 29, 2014, 06:42:20 PM
Two coils attached much brighter glow now. Still not detecting any bemf that I would have expected lighting an incandescent. My plan now is to load as many coils on to thing as I can.

Please keep us posted, what size of device are you working on?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 30, 2014, 01:53:07 AM
Please keep us posted, what size of device are you working on?
If you subscribe to the Youtube channel you'll see it as I upload. youtube.com/user/jimboot2 - The device I am working on is small If I manage to get more than 2watts out of it I'll be very surprised. I'll build something bigger once I'm convinced of potential...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on November 30, 2014, 05:05:54 AM
Here is my take on this, it's a small video slideshow    :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Un7-Gsj2c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Un7-Gsj2c)

Some info about it in the comment section below the video   ;)

Free,
Good design. Can always modify the rotor with different materials and concepts.
Possibly an iron or Ferrite "U" over the magnets to short the field.
Could even wire the coils parallel with diodes and use odd number of "U"s to eliminate cogging.

Lot's of mod's if it don't work as desired.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on November 30, 2014, 05:19:31 AM
I believe this may be a suitable occasion for a famous quote from Ed Leedskalnin...

"I made a lot more electricity with steel than I ever made with copper."

Regards...

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 30, 2014, 05:56:53 AM
Here is my take on this, it's a small video slideshow    :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Un7-Gsj2c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Un7-Gsj2c)

Some info about it in the comment section below the video   ;)
Sweet, I love those VCR tape heads.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 30, 2014, 11:29:45 AM
Uploading new video now - more glow from incandescent no change on dmm or audible drag on motor
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: murmel on November 30, 2014, 12:48:08 PM

Free,

You must be very rich, look at all the expensive capacitors :-)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on November 30, 2014, 01:23:29 PM
Here's the vid http://youtu.be/v_Kf5RsTGZ4 (http://youtu.be/v_Kf5RsTGZ4)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: murmel on November 30, 2014, 11:07:27 PM
No man, if i was than i wouldn't be in a spot on earth that i don't like     :(

I got these in a secondhand electronic store, they were around 2.5 or 3.5 euro each so bought a whole box of them    ;D

nice, where can i find that store ?
do they send to Sweden ?
Europe is the best spot :-)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 01, 2014, 07:12:38 AM
Hello all, I am new to the forum but old in experience.

The first thing that proves that the video producer is fake or not is the motive.

1) This guy has only 2 videos, both videos are about the same invention. So he don't make any money from those videos (no ads).
2) The guy has made a cad file with his invention which takes time. If it was hoax he wouldn't mess with any cad.
3) The guy from his words you can understand that he try hard to explain but his English (as mine) are poor. But even with his average explanation you can easily understand the invention.
4) It is more than obvious that the generator is connected to the motor.

 My experience tells me that this invention is legit and the guy is legit as well.

I think you are right. People need to see the original video, the demonstrations without the motor driving the generator are very impressive... very! Producing the wattage by hand that is needed to run the three power tools is quite a feat. The power is clearly coming from the generator at that point in time.

Here is the original 37 minute video Syair edited for some reason or another, down to 25 minutes.

I also am wondering if the belt movement and sound change when welding is a result of the motor no longer having the current and voltage available to power it because of the drain on the generator from the welder.....or perhaps... is there a substantial amount of hysteresis being developed with the very high amperage draw?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKUFoWAuj0&list=UUaKHAdY13gp-un2hn_HJehg
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 01, 2014, 04:47:54 PM
I think you are right. People need to see the original video, the demonstrations without the motor driving the generator are very impressive... very! Producing the wattage by hand that is needed to run the three power tools is quite a feat. The power is clearly coming from the generator at that point in time.

Here is the original 37 minute video Syair edited for some reason or another, down to 25 minutes.

I also am wondering if the belt movement and sound change when welding is a result of the motor no longer having the current and voltage available to power it because of the drain on the generator from the welder.....or perhaps... is there a substantial amount of hysteresis being developed with the very high amperage draw?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKUFoWAuj0&list=UUaKHAdY13gp-un2hn_HJehg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKUFoWAuj0&list=UUaKHAdY13gp-un2hn_HJehg)

The original video was very impressive, that's why Syair should be showing the design for that generator instead of another design.
I for one would like to know the design of the same generator shown in the video and not some other plan that might work something like it.
 
If you had a generator that worked that well, why would you waste time trying to build a larger one?
With a few batteries it would be enough to run your entire house as is.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 01, 2014, 05:42:20 PM
this idea of the generator is the greatest one of all times! there are two great powers while producing electricity by generators today one of them elektromagnet the other is generating coil that induces so much worse back EMF. force both of them duel with each other " iron wall is messenger" nothing to do with the fight!(this knowlage seems like divine rule.)
if one do not understand how it works then he must do as it said. But if you understand how, so simpler vertion is:
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 01, 2014, 05:57:02 PM
this idea of the generator is the greatest one of all times! there are two great powers while producing electricity by generators today one of them elektromagnet the other is generating coil that induces so much worse back EMF. force both of them duel with each other " iron wall is messenger" nothing to do with the fight!(this knowlage seems like divine rule.)
if one do not understand how it works then he must do as it said. But if you understand how, so simpler vertion is:
all iron laminations are isolated silicon steel but not necessary for the stationary magnets.
For Syairchairun design rator holders(inner disks that holding iron wall between magnets and coils) are non magnetic material like duraluminium as hard as it can be.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Kator01 on December 01, 2014, 06:25:10 PM
Hello,

I know you may not like this but it is not uncommon to have this kind of output by turning a pm-generator
by hand-power. So this alone is no proof.

See this generator-demo of a standard pm-generator produced by a polish company

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EVDhLQ17uk&list=UU7cu67V16UL5LfelkIyNPCA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EVDhLQ17uk&list=UU7cu67V16UL5LfelkIyNPCA)

regards

Kator01
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 01, 2014, 06:25:33 PM
http://www.overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/dlattach/attach/144719/ (http://www.overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/dlattach/attach/144719/)
in this attachment (http://www.overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/240/post/last_msg/425583/#)[/font][/size] four Shaded-pole stator can be found 100-200W fan motors, But some motors came with oil or oil free bearings can couse 100-200w friction on bearings! use ballbearings insted. you must cut also Shaded-pole short circuit coils. you can not use rator of the motor because of short circuited squirrel cage on it.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 01, 2014, 06:44:13 PM
Hello,

I know you may not like this but it is not uncommon to have this kind of output by turning a pm-generator
by hand-power. So this alone is no proof.

See this generator-demo of a standard pm-generator produced by a polish company

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EVDhLQ17uk&list=UU7cu67V16UL5LfelkIyNPCA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EVDhLQ17uk&list=UU7cu67V16UL5LfelkIyNPCA)

regards

Kator01


I gues you did see a lot of scam! But why are you here to read somehow. Try to analyse step by step.
what is happing ordanary generator and what is happening on this topic. there aren't all users read here because of same reason!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 01, 2014, 06:53:48 PM

The original video was very impressive, that's why Syair should be showing the design for that generator instead of another design.
I for one would like to know the design of the same generator shown in the video and not some other plan that might work something like it.
 
If you had a generator that worked that well, why would you waste time trying to build a larger one?
With a few batteries it would be enough to run your entire house as is.

I too would like to see the original design. I believe it is much superior. You cannot beat the minimal rpm that is required. The cogging is very minimal for all the power that is being produced, and should not bother anyone... it is no big deal.

As for working on a different model it is very easy to understand why he is doing it, it is partly tunnel vision, and partly ego, we are all guilty of it at the best of times and we can never seem to leave 'well enough' alone.....
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 01, 2014, 06:56:16 PM
I think you are right. People need to see the original video, the demonstrations without the motor driving the generator are very impressive... very! Producing the wattage by hand that is needed to run the three power tools is quite a feat. The power is clearly coming from the generator at that point in time.

Here is the original 37 minute video Syair edited for some reason or another, down to 25 minutes.

I also am wondering if the belt movement and sound change when welding is a result of the motor no longer having the current and voltage available to power it because of the drain on the generator from the welder.....or perhaps... is there a substantial amount of hysteresis being developed with the very high amperage draw?





kapanadze genarator can not weld, I think!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 01, 2014, 07:49:56 PM
this idea of the generator is the greatest one of all times! there are two great powers while producing electricity by generators today one of them elektromagnet the other is generating coil that induces so much worse back EMF. force both of them duel with each other " iron wall is messenger" nothing to do with the fight!(this knowlage seems like divine rule.)
if one do not understand how it works then he must do as it said. But if you understand how, so simpler vertion is:

How about this? :)
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43489#msg43489
Title: The "RamaGen"
Post by: Dog-One on December 01, 2014, 09:16:06 PM
So do we have any more news about this "RamaGen"?  From the source?

I'd like to think these two videos were not just teasers.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 01, 2014, 11:29:36 PM
How about this? :)
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43489#msg43489 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43489#msg43489)


it is nice how ever coil return path is absent to allow coils' magnetic flux to dissipate.
magnetic shunt must be replaced after inducing magnetic field to the coils also magnets.
 
Title: Re: The "RamaGen"
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 01, 2014, 11:30:03 PM

I'd like to think these two videos were not just teasers.


I think we would all like to think that... I think we will see if the proof is in the pudding soon enough from those who busy building right now. JimBoot's results are very encouraging so far.

Here is a little build I am throwing together from some parts I had kicking around. Neos will mount on DC motor face behind rotor and L brackets will wrap around the rotor to the front to hold the coils. Going to forgo ferrous cores for the time being...

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 01, 2014, 11:49:34 PM

it is nice how ever coil return path is absent to allow coils' magnetic flux to dissipate.
magnetic shunt must be replaced after inducing magnetic field to the coils also magnets.
If to think in E. Leedskalnin terms my design is all OK. You have deflection force caused by magnetic flux increase in coil when iron bar approaches then you have magnetic flux decrease when iron bar shorts 2 magnetic poles of magnets (so you have attraction force from coil when iron bar is already under coil) and the in the last step when iron bar is moving away from coil you get opposite magnetic flux increase with deflection force. So the net Lenz force = 0 in iron bar movement around circle when you sum it up. Balance magnetic forces around circle and then have 0 physical reaction even in strongest magnetic coupling between magnets and shorted coil. :) Then unbalance deflection force from coil and make it stronger when iron bar goes away from coil and you get generator+motor in single coil...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 02, 2014, 12:32:07 AM
To  "T-1000"


but how can you make this model (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43489#msg43489 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43489#msg43489)[/font]) compact and powerfull without closed magnetic flux lines?

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 02, 2014, 12:37:20 AM
To  "T-1000"


but how can you make this model (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43489#msg43489 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43489#msg43489)[/font]) compact and powerfull without closed magnetic flux lines?

Having another layer with rotor from other coils side with opposite layout of magnets on second stator from the second disk side will make it closed in coils. Just for a start that is not so important for a sake of seeing Lenz force effect working for you and not against you.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 02, 2014, 12:46:07 AM
This is the WORD than: Try not hard but simple and steady. There is no hard problem but complex ones are.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FatBird on December 02, 2014, 02:02:39 AM
Here is a generator that turns freely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFfsEfnsA4I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFfsEfnsA4I)
                                                                      .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 02, 2014, 12:33:52 PM
If to think in E. Leedskalnin terms my design is all OK. You have deflection force caused by magnetic flux increase in coil when iron bar approaches then you have magnetic flux decrease when iron bar shorts 2 magnetic poles of magnets (so you have attraction force from coil when iron bar is already under coil) and the in the last step when iron bar is moving away from coil you get opposite magnetic flux increase with deflection force. So the net Lenz force = 0 in iron bar movement around circle when you sum it up. Balance magnetic forces around circle and then have 0 physical reaction even in strongest magnetic coupling between magnets and shorted coil. :) Then unbalance deflection force from coil and make it stronger when iron bar goes away from coil and you get generator+motor in single coil...
I need pictures to understand what is happening. I know the bemf is not causing the motor to draw any more power, or at least what I have measured so far. . What I don't quite understand is what is happening with the fields to cause the current. Is theoria still on [size=78%]The forum? I'd love his input as well. [/size]
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FatBird on December 02, 2014, 01:45:56 PM
Car Runs On SELF RUNNING Generator Only.  No engine, No Transmission, and No Water Hydrogen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFfsEfnsA4I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFfsEfnsA4I)
                                                                                           .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Kator01 on December 02, 2014, 07:06:55 PM
the only patent I found:

first line:
http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/troy-reed/patents/

patent

http://www.google.com/patents/US5742111

Kator01
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FatBird on December 02, 2014, 09:17:54 PM
The attached patent file below, seems to show the detail better.
                                                                                                         .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 02, 2014, 10:36:47 PM
the only patent I found:

first line:
http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/troy-reed/patents/

patent

http://www.google.com/patents/US5742111

Kator01



Much more on Troy Reed and his motor/generator here  http://www.rexresearch.com/reed/reed.htm
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Enjoykin on December 03, 2014, 04:09:27 AM
NIKOLAI TESLA SCALAR MOTOR  !! :)

Can it be simplest ?? I think it can't !!

All informations are in Nikolai Tesla Lectures, Patents and Articles !!

GOOD LUCK !! :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 03, 2014, 12:28:46 PM
http://www.overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/dlattach/attach/144120/ (http://www.overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/dlattach/attach/144120/)
this generator useses magnetic shielding also. But not only for magnets also for coils when current passing as an electromagnet.
For the animation below; red matter is soft slicone steel laminations, white areas on the stator for coils but not like induction motor coils more like Ecklin generator coils. When generator coils do not used while inducing magnetic flux this can be achieved by a diode by a coil, this generator acts as a motor while producing electriciy!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 03, 2014, 07:45:00 PM
Is this the orignal invention? Is this Syairs friend he is no longer able to contact? The video was posted 1 year ago and only has 72 views...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph4v6Ql1HNY&list=UUD4Gw8ri6buK-H67JDpnv-g

Screen shot from video below....


Here are some comments from Syarchairun I found on a ID chat board that may shed further light on the working principle... first the original post, perhaps someone can help with a better translation...

(We all have to wonder if Syair is still with us, and if we will ever hear from him again. In his comments to SA earlier in November he stated that he was not able to get in touch with the inventor and did not know why. Lets be realistic, they monitor FE developments and they would no doubt move against him very quickly)

This was posted Nov 12/14  at http://www.kaskus.co.id/post/54631253a2cb17245e8b4575#post54631253a2cb17245e8b4575

Energy extranya itu memang sudah terdapat pada generator ini, contoh pada generator konvensional 10kva exciter coil hanya memasukan daya sebesar 320w ke rotor coil yang akan merubah energy itu menjadi magnet, lalu rotor akan berputar pada kecepatan 1500rpm dan mendptkan voltase sebesar 220v, ketika generator tanpa beban kamu bisa memutar generator 10kva itu hanya dengan tenga 0.75kva ( 1hp ), tapi ketika terbebani generator akan semakin berat, itu terjadi karna adanya efect lenzlaw yang selau berlawan arah dan menyebabkan rotor perlu tenga lebih untk berputr dalam putran tertntu, pada saat generator tidak diberi beban perubahan kutub yang terjadi di stator besi sangat besar dari pada inputnya, Nah generator yang baru saya buat itu mempunyai design yang kusus, yang dapat mengalirkan efect lenz law itu ke sudut yang berbeda, induksi dari rotor tetap masuk dan sngat besar dan induksi yang terjadi disaat terbebani dapat dialirkan ke sudut yang lain, contoh yang simple Pada generator pasaran : kamu sedang berjalan dari sudut A ke C dan ditengahnya ada sudut B ketika kamu mendekati sudut b kamu diterjang angin yang berlawan dan ketika kamu melewatinya kamu mlah ditarik, pasti kamu susah kan untuk mencpai ke titk C, tapi pada generator saya itu tidak terjadi tidak ada hambatan karna gaya negtif itu dialihkan ke arah yang lain bukan dimusnakan krna energy lenz law tetap ada.

Google translate....

Energy extranya it is already contained in this generator , an example of the conventional 10kVA generator exciter coil simply enter a power of 320W to the rotor coil that will transform it into magnetic energy , then the rotor will rotate at a speed of 1500rpm and mendptkan voltage of 220v , when the generator without load you can play it only with 10kVA generator 0.75kva tenga ( 1hp ) , but when the generators will increasingly heavy burden , it happens because their efect obtaining lenzlaw the opposite direction and cause the rotor need more tenga remedy berputr in putran tertntu , when the generator is not given load changes that occur in the stator poles are very large iron from the input , so I created a new generator that has a specially design , which can drain the efect lenz law to a different angle , fixed rotor induction of entry and large sngat and induction occurs when burdened can be streamed to the other , a simple example In the generator market : you 're running from the point A to C and in the middle there is a point B when you approach the corner b ye winds buffeted the opposite and when you pass you Mlah drawn , you definitely hard right to mencpai to the dot C , but on my generator that does not happen because there are no barriers negtif style was diverted towards the other is not destroyed krna energy lenz law remains.

Another comment also posted by Syair on Nov 12th

coba anda pahami : itu sangat berbeda dari generator konvensional,
Sepertinya anda trlalu trpku dengan kekekalan energy, Yang saya tau sih sprti itu krna memang sudh trbukti klu untk lbh jlas mngkn and bsa tnya kpada pmbuatnya yg prtma x, Saya hanya ingin share gambar detail serta cara krjanya jika ada yg brminat untk mmbuatnya, pada akhr tahun ini pihk indosat srta telkomsel yg berbsis di sumut akan merilis alat ini pada tiap2 tower yg bkerja sama pda prushaan KLE ( kaki langit energi ), jika anda berda di pulau jawa disna tptnya di bandung anda bsa search di google ( benwork free energy ) anda bsa membelinya dsna juga ada tpat pelthan free energy, atau jika anda brada di kawasan sumut anda bsa lngsug datang untk melihatnya tnggl pm saya aja, saat ini kami hanya menuggu izin perdgangan, itu yang sangat sulit karna negara ini mempunyai undang undang kelistrikan : Yang berhubungan tentang kelistrikan dalam bentuk apapun dikuasai seluruhnya oleh negara .Saya hanya bsa mnjwb sekedar itu tntang bgaimna energy itu datang krna saya hanye mereplika saja.Terima Kasih.

Translation....

try to understand : it is very different from a conventional generator ,
Looks like you trlalu trpku with eternity energy , which I know does it krna bleak indeed sudh trbukti Klu remedy lbh jlas mngkn and coud tnya kpada pmbuatnya who prtma x , I just wanted to share a picture detail and how krjanya if some remedy brminat mmbuatnya , on akhr this year pihk freeway srta Telkomsel who berbsis in sumut will release this tool on tiap2 tower that same bkerja pda prushaan KLE ( skyline energy ) , if you are arriving on the island of Java in Bandung disna tptnya you coud search in google ( benwork free energy ) you coud buy dsna also TPAT pelthan free energy , or if you are in the area Brada sumut you coud see lngsug come remedy tnggl pm I wrote , this time we only await the permission of Trade , it is very difficult because this country has laws of electricity : associated of electricity in any form entirely controlled by the state .I just bsa mnjwb tntang just the energy that comes krna bgaimna I Love saja.Terima Hanye replicate .

Oh rupanya cara kerjanya sama dengan konsep generator James w german, haha akhirnya saya tau, saya sudah lama ingin membuatnya tpi krna tidak ada biaya sih gan, krna temen ane sudah memiliki generator seperti ini tapi dengan metode fernando sixto ramos gan, tapi sayang jualnya gk pke otak 50juta untuk 5ribu watt tpi ya free energy, benwork juga menjual alat sperti ini harganya 25juta per 1000wattnya dengan energy magnet, saya sndri juga sudah melihatnya, tapi saya sangt tertarik dengan yang ini mna tau agan bisa jual lbh murah.
Oh ya gan hati2 soalnya tmen ane yang ngejual free energy gnertor metode sixto ramos sekrng tidak dapat mnjual itu lagi,hehe krna PLN melrangnya, saya kira kita telah dibodohi dan kita hidup dibwah kebohongan pemerintah yang slalu mementingkan diri sendri, Presiden sih bagus tapi yang bawahnya ini. Asuu..

Translation

Oh apparently works the same way with the concept generator James w german , haha finally I know , I 've been wanting to make tpi krna no charge anyway gan , krna ane friend already has a generator like this but the method fernando ramos sixto gan , but unfortunately the selling gk brain pke 50 million for 5ribu watt tpi yes free energy , benwork also sell equipment just as it costs 25 million per 1000wattnya with magnetic energy , I sndri also already seen it, but I am interested in this sangt mna know lbh agan can sell cheap .
Oh ya hati2 because tmen ane ngejual free energy gnertor sixto ramos sekrng method can not mnjual it again , hehe krna PLN melrangnya , I think we have been fooled and we live dibwah government lies slalu selfish sendri , the President still good but the bottom Here you are. Asuu ..

Syair also posted a rebuttable to a comment on the 13th which was his last post on the forum. No info about the generator in the comment...



 

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 03, 2014, 08:03:42 PM


Here is another apparent replication from Indonesia....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Ea8xVt0yk&sns=em


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 03, 2014, 08:08:54 PM
Can any of you experts in the motor field inform us as to what motors in North America would have similar stator windings that would be suitable for modification? I think the permanent magnet cores, regardless of the number of poles we work with, are a no brainer, I also think the rotor with ferrous segments is also a 'no brainer' to build and experiment with...

Seeing as how we are not all going to start importing generators from China to modify, let us identify the AC induction motors we need to be working with. Three phase stators,  220 volt single phase stators, 110 stators etc etc.... or is it more advisable to work with four pole Onan generator stators?

Lets get the discussion going please.... time is short!

See this website... http://revelation12.ca and you will know what I mean.... things are about change overnight!

And Syair if you are still around, and monitoring this thread, just take the permanent magnet generator apart and show us the configuration... please! Your friend may be dead, and if you are not, you may soon be if you do not quickly open source your work....

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 03, 2014, 10:09:53 PM
Many thanks to Just..Sayin.. because of his news.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 03, 2014, 11:07:03 PM
You are welcome thngr......

Here is an article about what may be the original genset that Syair replicated. It is not copy and paste format so I can not translate it, can anyone else translate any important info that may be in the article... it may also help nail down the location and dig up further info...

http://penapersada.blogspot.ca/2013/06/warga-binaan-rakit-genset-tanpa-bbm.html

Still wondering if anyone is going to help identify the proper type of  induction motor that would fit the bill here...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ChrisW on December 03, 2014, 11:17:42 PM
Heh-heh...Gotta love that picture of Inspector Clouseau "investigating."  :o  Kinda reminds me of Tahiti -- gendarmes (cops) standing around playing 'pocket pool' with absolutely nothing to do but stick their noses into everybody's business.


I'll be doing some experimenting with a single phase 1KW core extracted from a cheap ($150) Chinese generator in the coming days. More to come....


Chris



Edit: Just..Sayin.. -- pretty much any kind of motor will work. Start small for minimum current pull on the generator, work your way up if necessary. I'll be using a small DC motor that pulls about 4 amps at 12V in my setup.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 03, 2014, 11:18:02 PM
Those of us who want to live off the grid only require a small generator to run continuously and charge a battery bank. Two or three hundred watts would be sufficient, we do not need to convert one of these 10kw generators to achieve that. A one to three hp induction motor should do the trick for a few hundred watts....

Suggestions please from you stator experts as to what we need to work with...

Edit... Thanks for the input Chris..... I do have a small dc motor I believe it is 1/7 hp.... Also what is the brand of generator you are using, most of those use the gas engine to support the shaft at one end? Or is that the type you will work with?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 03, 2014, 11:38:36 PM
Hi everyone,

I was wondering what the Wave Form of one of these devices may look like.
So I put together a simple test device using a shaded motor coil with two N - S ceramic magnets between it and placed a thin board over it so I can manually slide different cores over it to observe the wave forms and see if there's anything unusual we can see.

I find the waveform to be different then the standard and would like the opinion of others as to why you would think this would make a difference in a generator.

I also noticed the wave form is quite different depending on how wide the core I manually move over magnets and coil.

First picture is the coil and magnet test setup and cores to be used. Second picture is with the thin board over the test setup with a core ready to be moved by hand.
The below scope shots are the results of U-core, then thin core, then wide core.

Please share your thoughts

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FatBird on December 04, 2014, 12:41:25 AM
You mentioned Shaded Pole Motor, but I don't see the motor in your pictures.
                                                                                     .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 04, 2014, 12:49:37 AM
You mentioned Shaded Pole Motor, but I don't see the motor in your pictures.
                                                                                     .

That's because I took it apart and only using the Coil and center core. They are quite an easy source for a quick coil and laminated core.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dog-One on December 04, 2014, 01:00:29 AM
Here is an article about what may be the original genset that Syair replicated. It is not copy and paste format so I can not translate it, can anyone else translate any important info that may be in the article... it may also help nail down the location and dig up further info...

http://penapersada.blogspot.ca/2013/06/warga-binaan-rakit-genset-tanpa-bbm.html

Managed to extract this:


The inmates in prisons muaradua successfully assemble the generator without fuel

Although life are behind bars, not hinder occupants Branch Prison Muaradua to be creative. Even the creation of inmates deserve appreciation society.
One of the creations in the field of technology which successfully created the Muaradua Prison inmates make Electricity Without Fuel engine. These creations exhibited direct Tuesday (25/6) in the detention center yesterday in a ceremony Muaradua land grants, as well as the inauguration of boarding Rutan and the inauguration of a business unit of steam motorcycles and cars belonging to citizens of proxies Rutan done.
Head of Branch Muaradua Rutan, Jumadi SH MH said, if indeed it has been continuously working to provide guidance and pembekaan ability for inmates. It is expected that after the exit of the detention center, they already have the skills to be developed in society and the economy sustain life.
"Development of skills is done to prisoners. Making electricity without burning itself is one obvious example, although we are still modeled through youtube, "beber Jumadi.
Development of electric technology without fuel added, inspired by frequent outages of electricity in the prison environment or Muaradua. So that inmates trying to create make electricity without fuel.
How electricity works without fuel he explained, the power cable to the electric motor is connected to the flow of PLN or ACCU, after the electric motor is turned on it will drive the electrical generator and produce electrical current AC and DC with a capacity of 3000 watts with a voltage of 300 volts.
"Electricity is able to illuminate the house with the number 15 Samai lights 20 light point. Just turn on only when needed flow of electricity, as the generator of life it is not necessary anymore, "he explained.
Advantages of electricity without fuel technology itself he said, do not cause air pollution as well as environmentally friendly and fuel efficient.
"We hope this technology can be developed successfully created, and make PLN as foster father," he hoped.
Meanwhile, the manager of PT PLN Rayon Muaradua, Iliyas deeply mengapreasi technology invented Rtan Muaradua prisoners. According Iliyas there are several components that need to be refined further assessed for more leverage. He also admitted that the team fielded PLN ready to help you enhance the technological creations.
"When asked by Rutan Muaradua, we of PLN will be ready to help by lowering a team of experts in helping inmates complete their work so that they can be marketed whole communities," he said while claiming to salute the creativity of inmates.
Regarding the cost of manufacture of the equipment, Iliyas menilas amount spent quite large. Given the high price of the dynamo is used. "High cost given, for dynamo," he added.
Separately, Vice Regent OKU south Dr. Hj Herath Billy SPM looking straight power tool without fuel also praised the creation. "It should be developed and refined. Hopefully in the future could be marketed and sold to the public at large, "he said
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 04, 2014, 01:08:05 AM
Thanks very much for the find.... Dog One
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dog-One on December 04, 2014, 01:16:38 AM
Thanks very much for the find.... Dog One

The trick is to view the page source, then cut-n-paste into google translate.

I can't say I'm encouraged about what that article tells us though, very likely Ramadan is a prisoner.  I wouldn't hold my breath on getting any more information than we already have.  I'm very thankful for what Syair has showed us; he certainly put himself in danger doing what he thought was right.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 04, 2014, 10:29:14 AM
so I created a new generator that has a specially design , which can drain the efect lenz law to a different angle , fixed rotor induction of entry and large sngat and induction occurs when burdened can be streamed to the other , a simple example In the generator market : you 're running from the point A to C and in the middle there is a point B when you approach the corner b ye winds buffeted the opposite and when you pass you Mlah drawn , you definitely hard right to mencpai to the dot C , but on my generator that does not happen because there are no barriers negtif style was diverted towards the other is not destroyed krna energy lenz law remains.


Exactly, discharge magnetic field of magnet when magnet is UNDER coil and the Lenz force will be redirected. This is why you have to include iron bar between magnet and coil and discharge the magnetic field from one magnet into other with opposite magnetic polarity when iron bar is under coil... ;)

Also my CAD drawing is designed exactly to do that and also balance magnetic forces so the same generator coil can become motor driving coil..
Reposting here (remove .txt from FreeCAD drawing file Magnetic flux switching generator.FCStd.txt):
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 04, 2014, 11:54:04 AM
to T-1000
your iron bar need to be isolated slicone steel stack in-line with magnetic field or ferrite bar do you aware that?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 04, 2014, 11:56:49 AM
to T-1000
your iron bar need to be isolated slicone steel stack in-line with magnetic field or ferrite bar do you aware that?
The preference is same as the core in transformer which mean isolated plates to avoid losses.
The magnets here virtually replace primary inductor coil of transformer.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 04, 2014, 12:07:39 PM
You are in the right direction as you said thinkering about transformer. I've designed mine as close as transformer.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 04, 2014, 12:12:20 PM
The main difference between transformer and this arrangement is the Lenz force redirection to right vector.
The magnetic field discharge in middle of cycle is doing that. To see what is going on with your own eyes the simple experiment can be done with moving iron bar between magnets and coil like arrangement in my drawing:
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 04, 2014, 12:21:55 PM
more economical design of mine about copper below as traditional motors and generators. so little to chance while modifing one into our models.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 04, 2014, 12:33:12 PM
do not miss understand me T-1000, I can not egnore your outstanding design, but we are looking for better design to build aren't we? you made me doubt about my design also.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 04, 2014, 01:14:53 PM
do not miss understand me T-1000, I can not egnore your outstanding design, but we are looking for better design to build aren't we? you made me doubt about my design also.
It is ok, the goal of community is one so putting everything into right design is a way.
The bottom line of Lenz law (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.html#c2) and its use in conventional generators is more than 100 years old and this design has to be improved to the level where we do not fight it anymore at least. The end goal is to exploit the energy from magnets in same way as from the Sun and have generator design laid out where all basic physical forces are employed to work in way we want to have. Obviously the electrical form of energy is used most so the transformation from alternating magnetic field into electricity has to have right design where we do not need to put more energy in than there we have from magnets physical attraction and deflection already...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 04, 2014, 01:44:32 PM
Someone posted a link to alibaba for the generator syair used. I can't find it could you post it again please.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dog-One on December 04, 2014, 02:05:41 PM
Someone posted a link to alibaba for the generator syair used. I can't find it could you post it again please.

Probably the easiest way is to do like my son showed me.  Search on "ST Generator Head", view images and pick something in the 3 to 10 kW range.  You should get plenty of hits.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 04, 2014, 03:18:49 PM
so simpler to replicate for who have doubt about it.( there is an animation also my older post in this topic)
below picture shows coils how to wind. electro magnet coils ten times more turn than the generator turns. cross area of the wires also ten times difrent.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 04, 2014, 05:46:54 PM
The main difference between transformer and this arrangement is the Lenz force redirection to right vector.
The magnetic field discharge in middle of cycle is doing that. To see what is going on with your own eyes the simple experiment can be done with moving iron bar between magnets and coil like arrangement in my drawing:

T-1000,
Iron that is magnetized is no different than a magnet. Trying to move magnetized iron across a  coil will be subject to lenz force the same as a magnet.

If this works at all it would require that the iron become magnetized while already within the coil winding. In this way lenz force could only serve to push iron out of coil or into another magnet of opposite polarity.

I have serious doubts of any of these devices working as imagined, and believe this is a much more complicated process than it appears and any claim of operation should provide full details for replication.

Once someone re-discovers what Syair has shown, then we could verify a working device, since Syair has made a claim and then vanished. (usually a bad sign)






Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 04, 2014, 06:14:32 PM
T-1000,
Iron that is magnetized is no different than a magnet. Trying to move magnetized iron across a  coil will be subject to lenz force the same as a magnet.

If this works at all it would require that the iron become magnetized while already within the coil winding. In this way lenz force could only serve to push iron out of coil or into another magnet of opposite polarity.

I have serious doubts of any of these devices working as imagined, and believe this is a much more complicated process than it appears and any claim of operation should provide full details for replication.

Once someone re-discovers what Syair has shown, then we could verify a working device, since Syair has made a claim and then vanished. (usually a bad sign)

The skepticism is healthy and this is why http://www.overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/dlattach/attach/144815/image// (http://www.overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/dlattach/attach/144815/image//) is attached to my previous post for simple cheap try for seeing results... :)

As it was said - "Trust but verify"...

 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 04, 2014, 06:39:36 PM
Someone posted a link to alibaba for the generator syair used. I can't find it could you post it again please.

Just search for four pole generator/alternator, there are lots of them, they always are rated at 1500 to 1600 RPM
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: kEhYo77 on December 04, 2014, 08:09:54 PM
T-1000,
Iron that is magnetized is no different than a magnet. Trying to move magnetized iron across a  coil will be subject to lenz force the same as a magnet.

If this works at all it would require that the iron become magnetized while already within the coil winding. In this way lenz force could only serve to push iron out of coil or into another magnet of opposite polarity.

I have serious doubts of any of these devices working as imagined, and believe this is a much more complicated process than it appears and any claim of operation should provide full details for replication.

Once someone re-discovers what Syair has shown, then we could verify a working device, since Syair has made a claim and then vanished. (usually a bad sign)
Hi.
I think the only significant Lenz breaking will be due to eddy currents in the iron piece, for sure.


Here is my take on this.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 04, 2014, 08:26:45 PM
My friend is assembling generator to my spec in background and I would like to share scope shot from single coil. The coil shorting does not have any effect on rotor as I predicted.. :)

Also 16 stator magnets and 9 blades on rotor still have not very balanced magnetic forces when running free but that is geometry issue to solve later on...

Cheers!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gyulasun on December 04, 2014, 10:25:24 PM
...

I find the waveform to be different then the standard and would like the opinion of others as to why you would think this would make a difference in a generator.

....


Hi Luc,

Have been thinking on the induced waveforms you have shown. I assume you tried to apply the same speed for all the 3 cores by your hand, right?

When I first saw your scope shots, I recalled Naudin's test with two orientations for a coil, where he moved a magnet in front of the coil, then tangentially to the coil, see here: http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/magconfig.gif (http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/magconfig.gif)  from his site http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromexp.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromexp.htm) 
I think the right hand side setup shown in the picture gives a similarly shaped induced voltage you received, even though there are certain differences, I think the tendency is similar.
What I mean on similarity is that all 3 induced voltage waves of yours start with a small (negative) peak which suddenly goes up and peaks in one or two (positive) peaks, then suddenly goes down and change sign again and ends in a small (negative) peak. The order of the peaks (negative) and (positive) could be upside down, depending on the NS or SN placement for you parallel magnets, just like in case of Naudin if he had used a South pole up instead of the North up, his waveform would have started with a small positive polarity first as the S pole moved from left to right.

For your U core and the wide core the 'split into two peaks' of the single positive peaks comes about, I think, because these two cores are able to bridge directly the two magnets with overlaps and the flux of the perm magnets (mainly in the top part) would prefer closing via the appearing U or wide cores when they are just above the magnets symmetrically and most flux on top is "sucked" away from the coil core and goes through the moving cores. This is not so for the moving thin core that cannot form a shunting bridge for the facing magnets.

Which waveform would make a difference in a generator, you ask. I would prefer the U shaped core but with its thickness matching the length of your magnets (now the U core thickness is less than the magnet length if I see it correctly). The U shape gives the biggest flux change out of the three I think and perhaps you wish to consider moving an U core under your magnet-coil setup too, now you show the U core moves only above the setup of course. This way the flux change could be even higher in the coil core. I mean two U cores moving alltogether as a rotor, sandwiching the stator magnets + the coil whenever they pass but then the total setup would become 'clumsy'...   :D  surely a mechanically better setup could be devised.

Gyula
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on December 05, 2014, 12:01:10 AM
It's the Batman Waveform!

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 05, 2014, 01:02:44 AM
Hi Luc,

Have been thinking on the induced waveforms you have shown. I assume you tried to apply the same speed for all the 3 cores by your hand, right?

Thank you Gyula for taking the time to write your thoughts and comments.

Yes, I did my best to keep the movement at the same speed for each test.

When I first saw your scope shots, I recalled Naudin's test with two orientations for a coil, where he moved a magnet in front of the coil, then tangentially to the coil, see here: http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/magconfig.gif (http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/magconfig.gif)  from his site The Mini-Romag explanation ? (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromexp.htm)
I think the right hand side setup shown in the picture gives a similarly shaped induced voltage you received, even though there are certain differences, I think the tendency is similar.
What I mean on similarity is that all 3 induced voltage waves of yours start with a small (negative) peak which suddenly goes up and peaks in one or two (positive) peaks, then suddenly goes down and change sign again and ends in a small (negative) peak. The order of the peaks (negative) and (positive) could be upside down, depending on the NS or SN placement for you parallel magnets, just like in case of Naudin if he had used a South pole up instead of the North up, his waveform would have started with a small positive polarity first as the S pole moved from left to right.

Yes I agree, it is similar waveform to JLN test but a much quicker change in my test setup as you have noticed.
The waveform reverses by moving the core in the other direction.

For your U core and the wide core the 'split into two peaks' of the single positive peaks comes about, I think, because these two cores are able to bridge directly the two magnets with overlaps and the flux of the perm magnets (mainly in the top part) would prefer closing via the appearing U or wide cores when they are just above the magnets symmetrically and most flux on top is "sucked" away from the coil core and goes through the moving cores. This is not so for the moving thin core that cannot form a shunting bridge for the facing magnets.

Yes, I would agree with your observations on why the difference of waveform when using the thin core which cannot bridge the gap between magnets.

Which waveform would make a difference in a generator, you ask. I would prefer the U shaped core but with its thickness matching the length of your magnets (now the U core thickness is less than the magnet length if I see it correctly). The U shape gives the biggest flux change out of the three I think and perhaps you wish to consider moving an U core under your magnet-coil setup too, now you show the U core moves only above the setup of course. This way the flux change could be even higher in the coil core. I mean two U cores moving alltogether as a rotor, sandwiching the stator magnets + the coil whenever they pass but then the total setup would become 'clumsy'...   Cheesy  surely a mechanically better setup could be devised.

Gyula

Actually, what I was trying to ask is, do you think any of these waveform would make a difference if this was a generator output and if so,  why?

The magnets distance is exactly the U core distance (center to center) The width of the magnets happen to also be the width of each core leg.

I agree, if we had U cores on each sides it should double or more the output.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 05, 2014, 01:17:48 AM
Here are a few more tests... but not the Batman kind TK is looking for LOL!

The difference is, I separated the magnets so the U core can only cover one magnet to coil core and also tried it with a long solid core. The pics should explain the test.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 05, 2014, 01:23:18 AM
It's the Batman Waveform!
Someone want to tell me why TK & Batman are never seen in the same room at the same time? Yeah thought so
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tysb3 on December 05, 2014, 06:20:11 AM
@ kEhYo77 (http://www.overunity.com/profile/kehyo77.12885/)
  in your setup could be very strong cogging
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: vince on December 05, 2014, 06:52:24 AM
I've been working on this project for the last few days and wanted to share my progress.  My build is based on UFO politics cad drawing.
Please note that some of my design choices were based on surplus and scrap items in my shop and not necessarily the best engineering design.
My iron is not laminated but the cast steel should still give some results in testing.

For those of you who are in the energetic forum I tried to post it there but my account as VTOL is not activated yet.


http://youtu.be/R1UnjWA2eyE (http://youtu.be/R1UnjWA2eyE)

Vince
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 05, 2014, 07:20:59 AM
Looks good Vince!

So, what does it do when you power it on ;D

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 05, 2014, 08:11:17 AM
Wow nice setup Vince
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FatBird on December 05, 2014, 02:46:28 PM
VERY Professional Vince.  Thanks for sharing.

What do you find when you power it up?


                                                                                                     .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: vince on December 05, 2014, 03:22:35 PM
Thanks all

No results yet. It runs smooth but I have to make some generating coils. The few turns I tried on the output are making only a few volts.
I would like some input though.
My field coils have 500 turns each.
What number of turns and gauge of wire would you use on output coils?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FatBird on December 05, 2014, 03:59:08 PM
Since it is a prototype testing unit, I would just use 16 or 18 gauge magnet wire.

As for turns, I would just fill up the first spool that you are winding the wire on, counting the turns as you go.
Then use that number of turns as the standard number of turns for the rest of the spools on the motor.

Ebay.com has some good bargains on Magnet Wire.
                                                                                                              .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 05, 2014, 11:14:05 PM
Thanks all

No results yet. It runs smooth but I have to make some generating coils. The few turns I tried on the output are making only a few volts.
I would like some input though.
My field coils have 500 turns each.
What number of turns and gauge of wire would you use on output coils?

I would say not to worry too much about voltage as current is what causes the most Lenz drag and this is what we all want to know if this design can help alleviate.
If for now you can only get one volt across a 1 Ohm resistor you have 1 watt, if you can get 2 volt you have 4 watts. And if you can connect and disconnect your load resistor with no change to RPM and your input motor has no change in current, then you have a winner.

If you still want to make coils, I would say use 16 AWG to 14 AWG and make as many turns as you can fit on your core.

All the best in your tests and thanks for sharing

Luc

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 06, 2014, 12:07:56 AM

My iron is not laminated but the cast steel should still give some results in testing.

Vince


cast iron for magnetic devices %20-30 efficincy. Isolated slicon steel %85-90 efficiency. your generator all ready using its power to heat it self you need not coils to generate instead you will need termaly insulated box and calorimeter.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dog-One on December 06, 2014, 12:30:51 AM
Have a read:

http://noticiasseleccionvaldeandemagico.blogspot.com/2014/07/leedskalnin-iron-man.html


Maybe rewind an off-the-shelf generator with insulated steel wire and have a go...?

Wouldn't recommend shorting the output though.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on December 06, 2014, 03:24:54 PM
Have a read:

http://noticiasseleccionvaldeandemagico.blogspot.com/2014/07/leedskalnin-iron-man.html (http://noticiasseleccionvaldeandemagico.blogspot.com/2014/07/leedskalnin-iron-man.html)


Maybe rewind an off-the-shelf generator with insulated steel wire and have a go...?

Wouldn't recommend shorting the output though.
Steel wire heats up very fast if a current is passed through it.
An easy way to test this would be to wind a primary with steel wire and wind a secondary with copper over it and see what the ratio of give and return was.
Be sure to run a very low voltage through the steel wire.
A joule thief would probably work for this.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 06, 2014, 03:44:02 PM
E. Leedskalnin had solution in 1930s but obviously the crucial information on redirecting Lenz force for our use was lost there..

When you make alternating magnet from moving iron core between N and S magnets on stator the Lenz force becomes same deflection for approaching and leaving iron core on coil. That is fundamental and is easily controllable by current draw on both cycles in coil. When making real school level model from the my pendulum picture (http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/dlattach/attach/144825/image//) it can show that.

The Eddy currents is what you have to avoid (the basic Faraday's induction law (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.html) - the current is on 90 degrees to the movement) and the short circuits inside of core are making losses and heat.
The drag issue is easy to solve in that arrangement by geometry solution...

Cheers!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gyulasun on December 06, 2014, 07:59:21 PM

....
Actually, what I was trying to ask is, do you think any of these waveform would make a difference if this was a generator output and if so,  why?

....

Hi Luc,

Regarding your question: I assume you are curious whether such kind of setup may make a low drag or a low Lenz kind of generator?
Well the short answer is that I do not know for sure. A bit longer response, though it still will not give a definite answer, would be this: 
Lets find out what happens when your coil is loaded? My guess is that it might be a low Lenz setup because the counter flux from the load current seems to make the coil core less 'attractable' by the magnet flux than in the unloaded case.

When your coil is not loaded the U shape core needs a certain input power to keep it in motion, the drag against the motion is the attract force the magnets flux causes by "jumping" back and force between the coil core and the moving core. OF course this drag or rather a mechanical cogging can be minimized by clever mechanical setup.

When your coil is loaded the counter flux by the load current should work against the magnets flux, reducing the attract force by the magnets flux I think.  This may unbalance the earlier mechanical balance (of the unloaded case) in the cogging issue and may reduce a little the input power to the prime mover (this latter sounds good). Again, this effect may be compensated too but the phenomena may introduce load dependence.
The limits of flux density in the cores are to be considered, including the load current, to avoid or at least reduce core saturation.
All in all, my guess is this generator setup may have a low Lenz effect, and whether this is already enough for a COP>1 performance can only be answered by trial and error, unfortunately.
If I still have not answered your question, then please ask for the third time too but please rephrase it a little.  ;)

Regarding your repositioning the magnets test: waveforms are widened, but the basic waveforms stay, whether the average power in the previous and in this latest waveforms is similar or not: by the look of the curves the areas covered look more or less similar to me. How a waveform wider in time duration may influence or not influence for instance Lenz law behaviour: common sense says Lenz law follows suit...   but again this is to be tested.

Gyula
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 07, 2014, 12:32:38 AM
Hi Gyula,

you answered my question well, thank you.

Below are some new Scope Shots. First open coil, then 100, 50, 25 and 12.5 Ohms loads with Power calculation included included

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 07, 2014, 10:57:09 AM
So I was messing about with one of those "shaded pole" motors that I got from a microwave oven fan. Thinking about what Gerard morin was doing with his little pump generator I replace the steel rotor with a 1" axial  neo cylinder and I spun it up. I got 110v or so before the axle slipped.
My question is why could this not simply be reversed for the gen we are working on in this thread? Why individual steel rotors and not just a single round one that spins in a n/s field.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 07, 2014, 01:01:26 PM
So I was messing about with one of those "shaded pole" motors that I got from a microwave oven fan. Thinking about what Gerard morin was doing with his little pump generator I replace the steel rotor with a 1" axial  neo cylinder and I spun it up. I got 110v or so before the axle slipped.
My question is why could this not simply be reversed for the gen we are working on in this thread? Why individual steel rotors and not just a single round one that spins in a n/s field.

Just wondering if you confirmed your results yet with current measurements on the input, rather than relying on the sound of the motor?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Kator01 on December 07, 2014, 01:07:43 PM
Hi folks,

this might be of interest here:

http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/SpinningCylinder.htm (http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/SpinningCylinder.htm)

regards

Kator01
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 07, 2014, 01:16:40 PM
Just wondering if you confirmed your results yet with current measurements on the input, rather than relying on the sound of the motor?
No sorry, only no change in volts. My rotors have been too unstable, my best guess is that it is no where near unity yet let alone over, but I do believe I can power a bulb without no extra power required, however that is no ou. Does give me more reason to experiment tho.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gyulasun on December 07, 2014, 02:09:05 PM
Hi Gyula,

you answered my question well, thank you.

Below are some new Scope Shots. First open coil, then 100, 50, 25 and 12.5 Ohms loads with Power calculation included included

Luc

Okay, and thanks for showing the new tests.  Unfortunately, the supposedly high DC resistance of the ex shaded pole motor coil works against the generated juice and this may also shadow part of the Lenz effect by not letting high enough current to flow through the loads. 
Maybe your hand is able to sense drag (if any) in the spaced away magnets setup too so that you coud compare results to the closer spaced magnets case.

Gyula
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 07, 2014, 05:16:13 PM
but I do believe I can power a bulb without no extra power required

This is what we are interested in knowing.... it is a given that you will not achieve o/u with that prototype, and that does not matter... a current measurement would be nice to see, to know if there is anything going on.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 07, 2014, 08:36:59 PM
Okay, and thanks for showing the new tests.  Unfortunately, the supposedly high DC resistance of the ex shaded pole motor coil works against the generated juice and this may also shadow part of the Lenz effect by not letting high enough current to flow through the loads. 
Maybe your hand is able to sense drag (if any) in the spaced away magnets setup too so that you coud compare results to the closer spaced magnets case.

Gyula

Unfortunately my hands cannot sense the difference between loaded and open coil. A motor powered rotary version would need to be built to detect such a change.
Before putting more time and resources in this I would need to see some kind of encouraging evidence that this design actually makes a difference.
Best thing I have seen so far is Farmhand's post on this topic but at the OUR forum which has nothing to do with this effect and everything to do with my friend Thane Heins ReGen-X effect.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 07, 2014, 10:05:46 PM
This is what we are interested in knowing.... it is a given that you will not achieve o/u with that prototype, and that does not matter... a current measurement would be nice to see, to know if there is anything going on.
Yep no doubt. [size=78%]http://youtu.be/bHR-dlGV4oM (http://youtu.be/bHR-dlGV4oM)[/size] is where I am currently at. I'm trying to get a balance between output and stability
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gyulasun on December 07, 2014, 11:33:01 PM
Unfortunately my hands cannot sense the difference between loaded and open coil. A motor powered rotary version would need to be built to detect such a change.
Before putting more time and resources in this I would need to see some kind of encouraging evidence that this design actually makes a difference.
Best thing I have seen so far is Farmhand's post on this topic but at the OUR forum which has nothing to do with this effect and everything to do with my friend Thane Heins ReGen-X effect.

Luc

I understand, thanks.  Just one suggestion, if you happen to have another coil with thicker wire and with an ID that can give room for a ferromagnetic core size like one of your  magnet stacks or so, than Lenz effect (if any) may be sensed with hands?  I am not saying it can be sensed for sure in that case but chances get better and you still do not have to put in more resources. Somehow it is to be tested to dismiss it or develop further on.

Gyula
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 08, 2014, 12:57:28 AM
Yep no doubt. [size=78%]http://youtu.be/bHR-dlGV4oM (http://youtu.be/bHR-dlGV4oM)[/size] is where I am currently at. I'm trying to get a balance between output and stability

Thanks Jim
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 08, 2014, 01:50:55 AM
Here is the update,

Title says it all...Looking good & poor performance... :o ::) :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbQvFmzti68&list=LLNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw&index=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbQvFmzti68&list=LLNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw&index=1)

At jimboot,
To reduce the cogging effect you can go with two ring magnets, it will have very little of it...just like Russ did... ;)
Only issue i had when i tested that was little output but my input was also very low due to almost no cogging effect and if you get ypur coils right you mzy even see speed under load... ;)
I'll be testing that two once the PMBO is over...
Interesting work mate. I think I've nearly got the cogging issue sorted. I know my motor is drawing too much atm too but it's more interesting to see what it does when a load is applied. I was going to do the PMBO again... but you know, I've already won so.. :) BTW I'm suprised your username was free  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 08, 2014, 01:57:54 AM
Here is the update,

Title says it all...Looking good & poor performance... :o ::) :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbQvFmzti68&list=LLNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw&index=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbQvFmzti68&list=LLNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw&index=1)


The performance is poor because rotating magnetized iron is no different than rotating the magnet.
Whatever trick we saw at the start of this thread is not as simple as just rotating iron.
Automobile alternators have a stationary magnet and rotate iron and are subject to lenz just like any other alternator.
 
Syair had the generator and never did show the inside configuration, wonder why?
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: vince on December 08, 2014, 04:52:26 AM
Some Update

I wound two of the 6  output coils with 18 gauge wire for my generator and did some quick  tests. Not sure what to make of the results so maybe I can get some opinions.

I powered 2 of the 6 field coils opposing the 2 output coils that were wound with a 12 volt dc battery charger and i drove the main dc motor with a pwm . Both the field coils power and the motor power were plugged into the same watt meter.

open circuit no load on output coils
RPM 3105
Watts in  575
open voltage out  6.90 dc  2 coils in series thru a bridge rectifier

loaded circuit with 10 k resistor shown below
RPM 3105 (no change)
Watts in 575  (no change)
voltage across resistor .445

shorted output coil
RPM 3105  (no change)
Watts in 575 (no change)

Vince
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 08, 2014, 07:54:38 AM
Here is the update,

Title says it all...Looking good & poor performance... :o ::) :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbQvFmzti68&list=LLNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw&index=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbQvFmzti68&list=LLNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw&index=1)


Very nice quality build!

Thanks for sharing your results

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 09, 2014, 01:17:32 AM
Yep, it is no different and that is why i wrote in the comment section that cored coils don't seem that bad after this test... ;) :P
This cogging was just ridiculous...never felt anything like it before... :o
Well, good thing we have the lenz effect because without it we won't have any energy production when using a coil/magnet configuration... ;)
Cheers

free,
The main problem I see is not so much the cogging but eddy currents in the iron causing lenz and heating drag.
If you used laminated iron it would operate with the same cogging but would have much less drag.
Even then, the energy out would not be OU because the setup still sees lenz in the coils.
 
I am going to build a version of the design I posted earlier where switching takes place within each coil and nulls the field between each polarity change.
It appears to me that the lenz would only serve to help rotation. (so I think anyway)
Good Luck!
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 09, 2014, 03:06:39 AM
Some Update

I wound two of the 6  output coils with 18 gauge wire for my generator and did some quick  tests. Not sure what to make of the results so maybe I can get some opinions.

I powered 2 of the 6 field coils opposing the 2 output coils that were wound with a 12 volt dc battery charger and i drove the main dc motor with a pwm . Both the field coils power and the motor power were plugged into the same watt meter.

open circuit no load on output coils
RPM 3105
Watts in  575
open voltage out  6.90 dc  2 coils in series thru a bridge rectifier

loaded circuit with 10 k resistor shown below
RPM 3105 (no change)
Watts in 575  (no change)
voltage across resistor .445

shorted output coil
RPM 3105  (no change)
Watts in 575 (no change)

Vince

That there is no change to the input when shorting the output coils is a successful test. Very successful and very encouraging.

Edit... Vince you have confirmed what Syair has claimed and convincingly demonstrated, that back emf can be overcome by employing stationary induction coils and stationary field magnetism, which is interrupted/switched with ferrous rotor segments. The overall machine efficiency in your test was irrelevant.  Thanks very much for your contribution...... I am also working on a similar test that should have great overall machine efficiency and substantial induction efficiency....(if your test results are what you say they are)

The energy we have been putting into conventional alternators/generators to turn the shafts and create electrical power has not been the energy we have been taking out of the machines.... The input power has been used to overcome the resistance between the supplied field and the induced field. The input has always been consumed by the struggle between the two fields. The supplied field and the induced field.

No known laws of physics are being changed with this induction method, the known laws are now being seen in a new light, and employed differently. In reality, very few laws of physics are known when it comes to grand totality of God's creation. We are still entirely clueless as to what makes magnetism actually tick.

Physics has been taken in by a great delusion and a sleight of hand. Why? Because the power needed to overcome the struggle has been precisely the same amount of energy that comes out of the machine. Therefore people assumed it was the transfer of one form of energy into another, when it was not.  It has all been a hoax! Electricity has always been generated from an endless supply of free magnetism. Counter electromotive force, or the lenz effect, has been a great deceiver from day one.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on December 09, 2014, 03:46:10 AM
I'm standing in my back yard spraying water around with my garden hose. I have a flowmeter attached to the hose and I make a reading. Then you come along with a bucket labelled "output" and run through the yard catching water from the spray in your bucket. Look! There is no change in my flowmeter reading!

A successful test of the Overunity Garden Hose! Very encouraging.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 09, 2014, 03:50:27 AM
" I'm standing in my back yard spraying water around with my garden hose."



Words spoken at least once by every guy drunk and alone in his back yard.

I'm here all week...try the veal...

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 09, 2014, 05:39:26 AM
I'm standing in my back yard spraying water around with my garden hose. I have a flowmeter attached to the hose and I make a reading. Then you come along with a bucket labelled "output" and run through the yard catching water from the spray in your bucket. Look! There is no change in my flowmeter reading!

A successful test of the Overunity Garden Hose! Very encouraging.
You have a problem with me getting the biggest most efficient bucket?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 09, 2014, 08:58:39 AM
now let us not assume something about what the energy is or gravity is, these have not been answered questions yet. but we know what amper's law or lenz law or faraday law are. Couldn't we replicate syair's device by bicycle rim like bedini school girl motor.


 I'm thinkering about wheels of old scooter of mine rusting in my garden. rims are aluminum (non magnetic) as a holder of laminated steel bars. I have also many transformers like micro wave oven's.some hardboard needed. Lathe can also be used to have smaller air gap in between. (this sunday to work)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: vince on December 09, 2014, 03:56:35 PM
What to do???
This forum is not for the sensitive.  Many here are very intelligent and experienced and somewhat intimidating to others that may not be as well versed in some of these topics. There in lies the dilema,do we post our feeble experiments and share our poor crafstmanship and builds or do we sit back and let the experts debate the topic.  I must say that I agree that we should never make claims with no compelling proof or make outlandish statements that make us us just look silly.
In my case here I made an attempt at replicating a device and I know it is not efficient and has many faults. I did not make ANY claims only shared my observations and "asked for input". Typically we get all kinds of feedback and of course the sarcasm. 
Makes you wonder if it is worth even participating in some of these discussions!

Vince
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 09, 2014, 04:37:31 PM
If you think of lenz as the reverse field direction of the output coil it is easy to see that by applying power to the output coil and checking how it affects the rotor one can determine how well your device is getting around the lenz drag.
Of course this doesn't help with eddy current drag in the rest of the device.
 
TK's analogy is close, you are using huge amounts of energy to magnetize the iron rotor by spinning it by those magnets. Then moving the iron by the coil to magnetize it's core takes even more energy.
When the coil is shorted, it prevents some iron in the coil and rotor from becoming fully magnetized and thus reduces some waste load on the rotor.
 
Vince,  you do get points for building devices, many just whine and never build anything so they fail before they start.
 
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 09, 2014, 08:28:27 PM
Eddy curents can be your best friend sometimes, especially when they help you achieve speed under load... ;) :o ;D
If your goal is RPM then yes, if the goal is to get maximum induction as possible without breaking spin momentum then no... ;)

It is "it" that help one get the Lenz Delayed Effect so that the generator coil start to help out the drive side at a specific rpm instead of dragging it down... ;)
Why the goal was to delay Lenz force in first place? Due opposition to movement which is being delayed?

If to attack problem cause the Lenz force / induced magnetic force has to be manipulated in a way where it neutralizes itself over full cycle. And this can be done easily by inducing current in coil 2 times over single passage near coil... The holy grail is in the pudding :) And this happen when moving iron core becomes alternating magnet due magnetic polarity flipping over 2 magnetic poles very close to to the coil core. This what I did show in my fundamental design (http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/dlattach/attach/144825/image//) and was in E. Leedskalnin generato (http://www.leedskalnin.com/Generator.jpg)r...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 09, 2014, 10:24:15 PM
eddy curents can be your best friend sometimes, especially when they help you achieve speed under load... ;) :o ;D
It is "it" that help one get the Lenz Delayed Effect so that the generator coil start to help out the drive side at a specific rpm instead of

Hi MC,

I would like to know your understanding (the mechanics) of how eddy currents assist in speed under load.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 09, 2014, 11:02:44 PM
What to do???
This forum is not for the sensitive.  Many here are very intelligent and experienced and somewhat intimidating to others that may not be as well versed in some of these topics. There in lies the dilema,do we post our feeble experiments and share our poor crafstmanship and builds or do we sit back and let the experts debate the topic.  I must say that I agree that we should never make claims with no compelling proof or make outlandish statements that make us us just look silly.
In my case here I made an attempt at replicating a device and I know it is not efficient and has many faults. I did not make ANY claims only shared my observations and "asked for input". Typically we get all kinds of feedback and of course the sarcasm. 
Makes you wonder if it is worth even participating in some of these discussions!

Vince
HI Vince,
Just ignore the stuff that offends. DOn't take it personally, those guys treat everyone that way. I'm sure they're very nice people in real life :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 09, 2014, 11:53:19 PM
In glancing through this thread I see the notorious term "delayed Lenz effect" being mentioned.  There is no delayed Lenz effect and let's take a quick look at some of the issues involved.

For starters, the term is about the Lenz drag that a rotor experiences when a rotor magnet passes a pick-up coil that is driving a load.  If the rotor speeds up the mistaken assumption is that somehow the drag has been somehow "delayed" such that the rotor experiences less overall Lenz drag and therefore it speeds up.  Presumably nearly the same power is going into the load.  There may be other definitions or interpretations because it is a pretty loosely defined term but let's just use that one for this discussion.

Let's start with some basics like the idea of somehow "cheating Lenz."   Everybody knows that if you hold opposing North-North bar magnets in your hands that there is repulsion.  I don't think anybody would argue that you can "cheat" for this example.  Common sense tells you that opposing magnets repel and there is nothing that is ever going to change that.  So what about the case when a rotor magnet passes by a pick-up coil driving a load resistor?  We all know that current will flow in the coil.  Therefore the pick-up coil itself becomes an electromagnet.   So a spinning rotor magnet with the North facing out will see a Noth pole from an electromagnet (the pick-up coil) as it approaches causing Lenz drag.   When the rotor magnet leaves it will see a South pole electromagnet causing Lenz drag.  There is no way that the rotor magnet will interact in some kind of different way with the pick-up coil which is simply acting as an electromagnet.

If you can't "cheat" the repulsion force between two opposing magnets, by the same token you can't cheat the repulsion force between a magnet and an electromagnet.  If you want to drive a load with your pick-up coil, by definition current has to flow into the load, and therefore by definition the pick-up coil will become an electromagnet that opposes the movement of the spinning rotor magnet.  Therefore, there is no point in searching for an assumed "workaround" or "cheat" or "attempt to delay" the Lenz drag that the rotor magnet will experience.

So what is really happening?   A typical example is where the pick-up coil is shorted out and the rotor spins at say 500 RPM.   Then you attach a load resistor to the pick-up coil and you observe the rotor speed increase to say 800 RPM.  Voila, there is your magic "delayed Lenz effect" - you went from a "no load" condition to a "load" condition and the rotor speeded up.

What's really happening is that you are failing to make proper measurements.  When the coil is shorted out, current circulates through the resistive wire of the coil and that is a load.   When you attach a load resistor to the coil, now the load has changed to the wire resistance plus the load resistor.

Now, in both cases above you can add a small current sensing resistor and measure the RMS voltage across the current sensing resistor.  Then you can calculate the power dissipation in the coil for both cases.

Here is the "surprise":   When you add the load resistor, LESS power is dissipated in the (coil + load resistor) as compared to the coil only.   That is the reason the rotor increases in RPM.

You can see how ironic the whole thing is.   Somebody says, "Wow, I add a load resistor and I increase my output power and the rotor speeds up!  You don't see this in the 'science books.'  This is outside of normal electronics."   

The experimenter thinks that his "rotor is speeding up under load" when in fact the TRUTH is that the rotor is speeding up because you are REDUCING the load on the rotor.  In other words, what is being observed is making perfect sense.  Nothing out of the ordinary is taking place.

Now, when you see people playing with pulse motors and spinning magnets on rotors driving pick-up coils, how often do you see someone attempting to measure the power dissipated in the pick-up coil itself?   The answer is almost never, and that is the root of the problem.  You cannot take anything for granted.  You have to make proper measurements.  In cases like this, all that you really need is a half-decent true-RMS multimeter and you can make the required measurements.

The term "delayed Lenz effect" is false, it doesn't even exist.  It's been around for a couple of years and it results in people leading themselves down a garden path.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 10, 2014, 12:54:04 AM
The term "delayed Lenz effect" is false, it doesn't even exist.  It's been around for a couple of years and it results in people leading themselves down a garden path.
This assumption comes from misunderstanding on how quickly coil reacts to magnetic impulse given. Obviously the longer wire the bigger inductance is and due that fact the slower coil response is. We are talking about range from microseconds to milliseconds and when proper conditions are met with magnet passing by the coil quicker than it can react with current the speedup under load/short circuit effect manifests.

Just the problem root cause is not how we can circumvent Lenz force itself. Usually in generators you get at least three phase system which contains sets of coils around of ring. If they are all arranged to get magnetic field change at the same time the drag will be biggest (this is what is in conventional generator design). But if you arrange them to get magnetic flux change in series the entire picture changes with resulting lowest drag with price of lowest power output. In that case it is becoming obvious how the drag can be manipulated. To dig in even further the problem source is single static magnetic pole passing by coil which creates alternating magnet by induction. So you have repulsion when it approaches coil which is against movement and attraction when magnet leaves coil which is against movement again. For a child who knows nothing about physics the logical question would occur - what will happen if we can change magnet polarity as it moves and have its one polarity when magnet is approaching coil then start flipping polarity when magnet starts leaving coil? The answer will be quite simple: in that scenario you have repulsion when magnet approaches coil with force opposing movement and will have repulsion with force helping movement when it leaves coil due fact the opposite magnetic field increase on leaving moment. And here most important part occurs: since you can have this arrangement when there are multiple coils getting polarity change in series to each other the one of things can happen - when magnet is approaching one coil and other magnet is leaving another coil at the same time the summary net kinetic force of repulsion around a ring becomes zero. So here is one of solutions how to solve drag issue caused by Lenz force...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: shylo on December 10, 2014, 01:15:11 AM
Delayed Lenz is a good analogy , You can't eliminate it but redirect it. Use it to spike another coil ,collect the output and put it back in.
When you feed power to a coil it creates the magnetic field. If I pass a magnet past a coil it creates a magnetic field .
What happens when you pass a magnet past a coil at the same time you pulse it?
artv
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 01:22:41 AM
Quote
This assumption comes from misunderstanding on how quickly coil reacts to magnetic impulse given. Obviously the longer wire the bigger inductance is and due that fact the slower coil response is. We are talking about range from microseconds to milliseconds and when proper conditions are met with magnet passing by the coil quicker than it can react with current the speedup under load/short circuit effect manifests.

The coil will not respond more slowly to the changing magnetic flux from a passing magnet if it is a larger coil with a larger inductance.   There are two separate and distinct effects and I believe that you are mixing the two effects together when in fact this does not happen.

1)  Response from a coil for a passing rotor magnet:   In this case the magnet is the source of the flux and the coil will respond to the changing flux by generating a voltage across its two terminals.  If the coil is a large inductance coil or a small inductance coil, the response will be approximately the same in terms of the timing, there is no delay in both cases.  This is a case where the coil is generating a response to an external source of magnetic flux.  The stimulus is external changing flux and the response is voltage across the coil terminals.

2) Response to voltage excitation across the two terminals of the coil:  In this case the larger inductance coil will respond more slowly than the small inductance coil.  So there is a timing difference in this case.  This is a case where the coil is generating a response to an external voltage source.  The stimulus is a voltage applied across the two terminals of the coil and the response is current flow through the coil/generation of flux by the coil itself.

Quote
Just the problem root cause is not how we can circumvent Lenz force itself. Usually in generators you get at least three phase system which contains sets of coils around of ring. If they are all arranged to get magnetic field change at the same time the drag will be biggest (this is what is in conventional generator design). But if you arrange them to get magnetic flux change in series the entire picture changes with resulting lowest drag with price of lowest power output. In that case it is becoming obvious how the drag can be manipulated. To dig in even further the problem source is single static magnetic pole passing by coil which creates alternating magnet by induction. So you have repulsion when it approaches coil which is against movement and attraction when magnet leaves coil which is against movement again. For a child who knows nothing about physics the logical question would occur - what will happen if we can change magnet polarity as it moves and have its one polarity when magnet is approaching coil then start flipping polarity when magnet starts leaving coil? The answer will be quite simple: in that scenario you have repulsion when magnet approaches coil with force opposing movement and will have repulsion with force helping movement when it leaves coil due fact the opposite magnetic field increase on leaving moment. And here most important part occurs: since you can have this arrangement when there are multiple coils getting polarity change in series to each other the one of things can happen: when magnet is approaching one coil and other magnet is leaving another coil at the same time the summary net kinetic force of repulsion around a ring becomes zero. So here is one of solutions how to solve drag issue caused by Lenz force...

No matter what the configuration of the generator, the more electrical power it outputs into a load, the more mechanical power that you must supply to the generator.  There will not be any "net force helping movement."   This type of discussion is too difficult to discuss in text only.  This is a case where you need to make measurements with your scope and construct timing diagrams so that you can analyse what the generator is doing step by step.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 01:33:51 AM
Delayed Lenz is a good analogy , You can't eliminate it but redirect it. Use it to spike another coil ,collect the output and put it back in.
When you feed power to a coil it creates the magnetic field. If I pass a magnet past a coil it creates a magnetic field .
What happens when you pass a magnet past a coil at the same time you pulse it?
artv

Delayed Lenz is a false analogy.  You raise some interesting points, but here is another case where you have to have a schematic diagram and a set of timing diagrams referencing the schematic to really discuss what may be going on.  "Use it to spike another coil ,collect the output and put it back in." - it's too easy to just say that stuff and not back it up.  The only real and true way to do it is with a schematic and timing diagrams.  You could also build a circuit and confirm that it really does what you claim.  That's where it starts to get difficult for a lot of people - to make the transition from just describing how you think something might work, to actually doing the circuit, making a good schematic and set of timing diagrams, and then verifying that your timing diagrams are correct by checking with your scope.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 10, 2014, 01:37:28 AM
MileHigh,

Had to dig something up from history - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j-0CvWYT8w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j-0CvWYT8w) Just listen on rotor speed change when generator coil is under different load and unloaded (or attach soundscope). There are quite many of videos like that. Sorry, the reality is different than you have in theory for a coil reaction timing. The coil natural resonance is at the play with it.
Also for different generator design seems you completely missed a point where moving static magnet becomes alternating magnet. The result will be not same "more physical force in for getting more power out". If you are still very skeptic by doing experiment this can be revealed on your table.

Cheers!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: shylo on December 10, 2014, 01:46:13 AM
Hi Milehigh, Very interesting what are those quotes from?
As a magnet enters the coil , the flow continues to rise, then drops, fields change? Right?
Just need to switch at the right time?
I don't think passing steel between the magnets is all there is , more to it than that.
artv
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 02:27:19 AM
T-1000:

I watched the clip and I heard the speed-up and saw the current consumption drop for the two different loads.   In this case we go from an open-circut generator coil to a loaded generator coil.  So this is a different case from my original discussion where I compared a short-circuited generator coil to a loaded generator coil.  In this case we are still not dealing with any "delayed Lenz effect" or coil resonance.

This clip is a great example, and I have seen many myself in the past.  The reason there is no delayed Lenz effect is that the timing of the current flow through the generator coil will not show any delay.  Nor will the magnetic repulsion show any delay.  Also, the natural resonant frequency of the generator coil like you see in the clip will be very high, much higher than the frequency it is running at in the clip.  More importantly, who says "natural resonance" has to increase the RPM of the rotor?  That is a misleading assumption, just like assuming "delayed Lenz effect" is a misleading assumption.

So, we know that when the coil is not driving a load, there is no useful output.   That means all of the input power is becoming waste heat.   Yes, the rotor is spinning, but that is not a useful output.  The spinning rotor just heats the air and that produces waste heat.

When the coil is driving the LED board or the incandescent light bulb, then you have a useful output, and you still have a lot of waste heat.

So why does the rotor speed up if it has nothing to do with a delayed Lenz effect?  To find the answer you would have to make very careful and precise measurements.  It would be a challenge to do that for sure, but it would be rewarding to find out the solution to the problem.  I cannot tell you the exact reason why, but I do have a general idea why.

Here is an example of what is happening from a "top view" just as an example, it is not necessarily correct.

1)  When the generator coil is not driving a load:

<Voltage source> -> <AC power flow 'X1' watts> -> [<'Y1' Power to spin the rotor (= waste heat)> + <'Z1'' Power lost to cogging (= waste heat)>]

2) When the generator coil is driving a load:

<Voltage source> -> <AC power flow 'X2' watts> -> [<'Y2' Power to spin the rotor (= waste heat)> + <'Z2'' Power lost to cogging (= waste heat)> + <'L2' power going to load>]

In the clip you can see the current draw drops under load.   So that means that X2 is less than X1.  It's doesn't really matter.  The only thing that matters is that Y2 is greater than Y1.  It has absolutely nothing to do with a "delayed Lenz effect."

How do you make the measurements above?   The answer is with great difficulty.   It would be a real challenge.  I am pretty sure that the power lost to cogging goes down when the pick-up coil is driving a load.  Meauring Y2 and Y1 would not be easy, you note that the RPM of rotor by ear only changes perhaps 1% or 2%.

What would be easy, would be to confirm that there is no delayed Lenz effect.  If you have a scope you can look at the current flowing through the pick up coil and the position of the rotor magnet as it passes the pick-up coil.  You will quickly see that there is no "delayed Lenz effect."

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 10, 2014, 02:58:11 AM
You guys appear to be nearing something significant, because a "new member" showed up "out of the blue" to offer some helpful but incomplete information...which oddly enough leads off in another direction.

Regards...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 02:58:36 AM
T-1000:

Quote
The coil natural resonance is at the play with it.

The above quote illustrates a classic problem that you see on the forums.  It applies to many people, not just you.  It's a kind of "blind belief" that "resonance is good" and that "must somehow" be part or all of the reason that the rotor speeds up.

This is a serious mistake and I ask you to think about this very seriously.  What do you mean by the coil resonance in the context of the clip?  Precisely why should the rotor speed up?  Can you draw a timing diagram that shows how the coil resonance interacts with the passing rotor magnets?  Can your timing diagram show how and why the rotor speeds up?

Don't worry, I am not expecting you to literally answer these questions, it's just to make you think.  If you have a pulse motor and a scope one day you should try to construct a timing diagram for your pulse motor to understand precisely what it is doing.  You have to have the rotor magnet position and the the voltage and current output from your pick-up coil when it is driving a load on your timing diagram.  You can then see the actual Lenz drag on the rotor magnet.  You can do a similar investigation for the drive coil to see exactly why the current consumption increases or decreases.

The most important lesson here is to think critically about these often repeated cliches.  "The pick-up coil goes into resonance and that makes the pulse motor run better."   Really?  Who says?  Does anyone have proof of this?  You need to challenge yourself and challenge your peers to avoid cliches and instead actually find out if they are true.

Quote
Also for different generator design seems you completely missed a point where moving static magnet becomes alternating magnet. The result will be not same "more physical force in for getting more power out". If you are still very skeptic by doing experiment this can be revealed on your table.

You can't just by "magic" change the polarity of a magnet inside a generator while it is running.  Even if you could that would  require energy to do that.  I am not sure what kind of experiment that you are suggesting but I can't see this idea becoming practical in any way.  All these ideas of "tricking" a system to get repulsion instead of attraction, etc, are things that you can experiment on if you want to.

Anyway, I hope this discussion makes you and other pulse motor enthusiasts think, and think critically about what you are observing when you work on a bench.   Simply observing a pulse motor speed up and then saying to yourself, "There, I have achieved the 'delayed Lenz effect'" is a big mistake.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 03:02:52 AM
Shylo:

The quotes come from me.

Captain Zero:

You have got to be kidding.  Focus on the global plight of the platypus or some other conspiracy.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 10, 2014, 03:08:27 AM
Shylo:

The quotes come from me.

Captain Zero:

You have got to be kidding.  Focus on the global plight of the platypus or some other conspiracy.

MileHigh



That remark ladeees and gents, has all the ear marks of 'tag trolling'.

Regards...

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dog-One on December 10, 2014, 03:10:17 AM
Had to dig something up from history - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j-0CvWYT8w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j-0CvWYT8w) Just listen on rotor speed change when generator coil is under different load and unloaded (or attach soundscope). There are quite many of videos like that.

Yes T.  When the coils have no electrical path, the energy induced in those coils has only one place to dissipate, that being back to the core and on to the rotor as a counter force to the direction of motion.  When the coils are connected to a load, any load, now that energy has an alternate path to dissipate and surprise, surprise, the rotor speed increases due to less counter force.  It may really be that simple.  One can play all the mind screw games they want and the obvious doesn't change.  Having said that, I actually think what you see though is a bit more complicated.  I think the electricity actually passes through the load, goes back to the coil and begins to alter the magnetic field in the core over enough time the force at the pole of the core is reversed as the magnet passes by.

So on the topic of Delayed Lenz Effect, lets just consider a simple piece of electrical grade steel.  As far as I'm aware, there is no measuring instrument that can show me exactly the propagation and displacement of a magnetic field as it penetrates and temporarily polarizes the steel.  So I cannot prove this one way or another and I doubt anyone else can either, but my gut says this does not happen instantaneously.  Which means if alternating magnetic fields pass by this piece of steel at sufficient frequency and short duration, the steel cannot possibly alter its magnetic orientation quickly enough to behave the same as it would with a simple hand demonstration.  What would be nice to know is if once the propagation starts, does it run to completion even when a reverse field interrupts it, or does it stop half way and begin to propagate in the other direction.  Either way, propagation of a magnetic field through this steel implies there is a delay, an event interval.  I happen to suspect the polarization occurs at the atomic level.  At this level, superposition is at play, which means the polarization runs through the steel in waves.  So we can clearly have magnetic self resonance within the steel itself.  What you see at the poles is almost no indication to what is happening inside.  And what is happening inside (the majority) also participates in the act of induction.


So if there are any measuring errors to correct, first find me an instrument that will let me see what I need to see to prove or disprove my instincts.  In the meantime, use a little logic and think as you go.  There are a lot of folks out there that would rather you just put all your research equipment on eBay and go watch football.  I'd rather you didn't give them what they want and instead look deeper and make something work the way you think it can.  I know T-1000 is, anyone else care to join him?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 03:12:37 AM


That remark ladeees and gents, has all the ear marks of 'tag trolling'.

Regards...

I don't think anybody wants to hear your nonsense coming from the peanut galley on this thread.  You are here to service your addiction for making dumbo comments?  Please do your shtick on another thread and don't spoil this one.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 10, 2014, 03:16:11 AM
I forgot to mention that laminations aligned horizontally.
about elektro-magnet polarities last generator design of mine:
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 10, 2014, 03:19:53 AM
And for those scoring at home, it goes something like this...

A seemingly viable concept is presented,

Immediately ridiculed without qualification.

A lively discussion ensues nevertheless.

The thread is developing progressively.

A stranger bearing a bag of smelly 'red herring' arrives calling attention to the to bag of fish.

Somebody (me) kills the smell using baking powder.

An often accused troll (TrollHigher) rushes in with a fan attempting to disperse the baking powder, to bring back the fishy smell.

Regards...

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 10, 2014, 03:36:48 AM
I don't think anybody wants to hear your nonsense coming from the peanut galley on this thread.


I beg to differ with said troll.

People wood much prefer to read what I have to say on things...rather than tire their arm scrolling by his empty long winded diatribes. 



Quote
You are here to service your addiction for making dumbo comments?
 


Classic troll projecting...i seriously doubt any 2 members wood come close to this loon's word count.

I think we all know which of us is the addict...well, except for one maybe.



Quote
Please do your shtick on another thread and don't spoil this one.



Like everybody doesn't read, and saw the various attempts to bury this thread.

Looks as tho he's using troll voodoo to hypnotroll the readership.

Regards...

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 03:39:40 AM
What a case you are Captain Zero.  For me you are a person whose "brain does not process information properly."  You are high functioning that's for sure, but there is definitely something wrong.   This thread is a month old and I haven't even read it.  I saw a 240p 25-minute YouTube video and I simply don't have the patience to watch yet another very long video with a guy playing with what appears to be a modified COTS motor on a dirt floor.  I don't even know what the pitch is beyond the subject line, and the content of the subject line doesn't even make any sense to me. I glanced through the past 5 postings and saw the discussion about the so-called "delayed Lenz effect" so I discussed that.  Do you get that?  I don't even know what the thread is truly about, I haven't followed it, nor am I interested in it.  I am guessing that the thread wandered off the original subject matter anyway, as that often happens.  Can your brain process that?  I am only here to discuss the recent topic of the phony "delayed Lenz effect."
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 10, 2014, 03:43:16 AM
Shhuuuurrrrre

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: SeaMonkey on December 10, 2014, 03:51:08 AM
Though it is true that Miles Higher nurtures a strong
case of cognitive dissonance relative to certain matters,
his thoughts regarding the Lenz Effect and what has
come to be known as the Delayed Lenz Effect have credibility.

With conventional dynamos and generators the Lenz Effect
maximizes within the region of maximum magnetic field
strength;  hence it manifests as a strong physical resistance
to movement by the prime mover.

In order to minimize the Lenz Effect (which is truly inescapable)
it should be maximized in the region of minimum magnetic field
strength within the dynamo or generator.  With electronic switching
techniques this is fairly easily accomplished.

With the old style DC generators it may be accomplished by re-
positioning the brushes contact area with the commutator.

Of course this has been tried in the distant past and it will work
to some extent.  The problem is that the electrical output of the
generator falls to a small fraction of what it would have been
under 'normal' operating conditions.

There are new types of generators and alternators which by their
unique designs do reduce the Lenz Effect without any loss of electrical
output power.  None have yet achieved 'over unity.'
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 10, 2014, 04:08:28 AM
That wood be a yes and a no SeaM.

" Though it is true that Miles Higher nurtures a strong
case of cognitive dissonance relative to certain matters,..."

An unqualified yes.



"...his thoughts regarding the Lenz Effect and what has
come to be known as the Delayed Lenz Effect have credibility."


And that wood be the no part.

You see, nobody understands magnetism...so, until then, everybody here is just speculating about LENZ effects.

Regards...

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 04:17:07 AM
SeaMonkey:

Reduce the Lenz drag from a generator under load and you end up reducing the power output also!  Very astute!

DogOne:

Quote
Yes T.  When the coils have no electrical path, the energy induced in those coils has only one place to dissipate, that being back to the core and on to the rotor as a counter force to the direction of motion.  When the coils are connected to a load, any load, now that energy has an alternate path to dissipate and surprise, surprise, the rotor speed increases due to less counter force.  It may really be that simple.  One can play all the mind screw games they want and the obvious doesn't change.  Having said that, I actually think what you see though is a bit more complicated.  I think the electricity actually passes through the load, goes back to the coil and begins to alter the magnetic field in the core over enough time the force at the pole of the core is reversed as the magnet passes by.

If the generator output coils of a pulse motor are open circuit, then of course no current flows so by the "induced energy" I assume that you mean the ferrite core is the coil gets polarized.  However it won't be a counter force to the direction of motion.  First there will be attraction in the direction of motion, then you pass TDC and then there is an attraction opposite to the direction of motion.  In theory in an ideal case, there is a net-zero effect on the rotor speed.  However, this whacks the main rotor bearing with disturbance torque which is the cogging and that causes bearing friction.  I assume that there will also be some hysteresis and possibly eddy current losses in the core itself but I am not sure how large they will be compared to the cogging losses.

If you are referring to me when you say "mind screw games" or implying that I have ulterior motives that is absolute crap and it's offensive.  There is nothing worse than trying to share knowledge and ideas and then have somebody come along and accuse you of "mind games" when you are trying to have a legitimate technical discussion.  If you weren't talking about me then fine.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 04:25:09 AM
Quote
And that wood be the no part.

Captain Zero, I have never seen you make a single original technical comment of your own so you are not qualified to comment on anything technical at all.  You are just a sour puss monger looking to get your sour puss juices flowing.  Got a spot that gets you hot?

Do you think I could interest you in a pair of zircon-encrusted tweezers?  lol
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 10, 2014, 05:11:50 AM
Being smart enough to realize you don't know is a big boy step.

Only one of us has taken that step.

This particular troll has however, learned to stand clear when I express a definitive opinion on something in one my fields of endeavor...because unlike him I know of what I speak and do not bullsh!t people.

I do know as much about magnetism as this punter though...which is not a lot, by comparison.

Regards...

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 05:21:47 AM
How dare you insinuate that I lie and that I don't know what I am talking about.  You are a morally bankrupt individual and you are ruining this thread.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 10, 2014, 05:34:08 AM
How dare you insinuate that I lie and that I don't know what I am talking about.  You are a morally bankrupt individual and you are ruining this thread.
Cap has offered one piece of advice that I suggest all consider very seriously:  Don't feed trolls.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 10, 2014, 05:38:06 AM
Well...lets break this down for the forum 'knowitall'.

When making statements of fact as it relates to magnetism, that is in effect 'bullsh!tting'.

And its virtually impossible to run off at the mouth like he does without spreading some.

No one has said so much and done so little.

Regards...

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 10, 2014, 07:18:16 AM
What would be easy, would be to confirm that there is no delayed Lenz effect.  If you have a scope you can look at the current flowing through the pick up coil and the position of the rotor magnet as it passes the pick-up coil.  You will quickly see that there is no "delayed Lenz effect."

MileHigh

What if we have a coil which accelerates under load (AUL) and wind a high current coil over it. 
Now we have two coils on the same core. The only difference is, one AUL and the other does not.
We connect a 1 Ohm resistor to each coil and add scope probe across each.
First we put the AUL coil under load and wait till the RPM is stable, then we also load the high current coil.
What do you think we should see on the scope? will each resistor sinewave happen at the same time or could we see a phase shift between each load resistor?


Regards

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 10, 2014, 08:31:13 AM
There is no delayed Lenz effect only thing I see poor magnetic cores transforms magnetic energy in to heat while not short circuited.
in short circuited coil there is much resistance to chancing magnetic field so in ideal conditions(super conductor coil) there wont be any magnetic flux chance. Bare iron is their core material.(which couse so many edycurrents in them) Please end your quarrel about it.[/size]
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 10, 2014, 10:13:51 AM
Good luck with that.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 10, 2014, 11:07:16 AM
In glancing through this thread I see the notorious term "delayed Lenz effect" being mentioned.  There is no delayed Lenz effect and let's take a quick look at some of the issues involved.

For starters, the term is about the Lenz drag that a rotor experiences when a rotor magnet passes a pick-up coil that is driving a load.  If the rotor speeds up the mistaken assumption is that somehow the drag has been somehow "delayed" such that the rotor experiences less overall Lenz drag and therefore it speeds up.  Presumably nearly the same power is going into the load.  There may be other definitions or interpretations because it is a pretty loosely defined term but let's just use that one for this discussion.

Let's start with some basics like the idea of somehow "cheating Lenz."   Everybody knows that if you hold opposing North-North bar magnets in your hands that there is repulsion.  I don't think anybody would argue that you can "cheat" for this example.  Common sense tells you that opposing magnets repel and there is nothing that is ever going to change that.  So what about the case when a rotor magnet passes by a pick-up coil driving a load resistor?  We all know that current will flow in the coil.  Therefore the pick-up coil itself becomes an electromagnet.   So a spinning rotor magnet with the North facing out will see a Noth pole from an electromagnet (the pick-up coil) as it approaches causing Lenz drag.   When the rotor magnet leaves it will see a South pole electromagnet causing Lenz drag.  There is no way that the rotor magnet will interact in some kind of different way with the pick-up coil which is simply acting as an electromagnet.

If you can't "cheat" the repulsion force between two opposing magnets, by the same token you can't cheat the repulsion force between a magnet and an electromagnet.  If you want to drive a load with your pick-up coil, by definition current has to flow into the load, and therefore by definition the pick-up coil will become an electromagnet that opposes the movement of the spinning rotor magnet.  Therefore, there is no point in searching for an assumed "workaround" or "cheat" or "attempt to delay" the Lenz drag that the rotor magnet will experience.

So what is really happening?   A typical example is where the pick-up coil is shorted out and the rotor spins at say 500 RPM.   Then you attach a load resistor to the pick-up coil and you observe the rotor speed increase to say 800 RPM.  Voila, there is your magic "delayed Lenz effect" - you went from a "no load" condition to a "load" condition and the rotor speeded up.

What's really happening is that you are failing to make proper measurements.  When the coil is shorted out, current circulates through the resistive wire of the coil and that is a load.   When you attach a load resistor to the coil, now the load has changed to the wire resistance plus the load resistor.

Now, in both cases above you can add a small current sensing resistor and measure the RMS voltage across the current sensing resistor.  Then you can calculate the power dissipation in the coil for both cases.

Here is the "surprise":   When you add the load resistor, LESS power is dissipated in the (coil + load resistor) as compared to the coil only.   That is the reason the rotor increases in RPM.

You can see how ironic the whole thing is.   Somebody says, "Wow, I add a load resistor and I increase my output power and the rotor speeds up!  You don't see this in the 'science books.'  This is outside of normal electronics."   

The experimenter thinks that his "rotor is speeding up under load" when in fact the TRUTH is that the rotor is speeding up because you are REDUCING the load on the rotor.  In other words, what is being observed is making perfect sense.  Nothing out of the ordinary is taking place.

Now, when you see people playing with pulse motors and spinning magnets on rotors driving pick-up coils, how often do you see someone attempting to measure the power dissipated in the pick-up coil itself?   The answer is almost never, and that is the root of the problem.  You cannot take anything for granted.  You have to make proper measurements.  In cases like this, all that you really need is a half-decent true-RMS multimeter and you can make the required measurements.

The term "delayed Lenz effect" is false, it doesn't even exist.  It's been around for a couple of years and it results in people leading themselves down a garden path.

MileHigh
I'm not seeing speed increases but I'm not detecting extra load atm. Lots more measurements to make tho. I think the lenz effect just isnt getting in the way of the rotor.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 10, 2014, 11:19:15 AM
hey guys. I watched a lot of educational institutional vids last night on Lenz. I couldn't find anything though that showed the science behind what happens to lenz when you pass laminated steel past a mag and you have a pu coil the other side of the mag. My exp would suggest it's just not getting in the way of the rotor, so no extra load or slow down. I really need to understand now more about gen coils. I'm beginning to grasp that small wires will give me high volts low amps and bigger wire the opposite. i'm trying to work out the best coil for my rig and I'm very familiar with the lenz effect given the amount of PMs I've built, I'm not seeing it here though.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 10, 2014, 11:40:10 AM
In experiments with alternating magnets passing by coils the coil responses are different from stationary magnetic polarities passing coils. This is what Jim, me and some other people are experiencing when setting up the test cases in experiments. Some people might deny that and flood another 1000 forum pages stating opposite without making experiment but that is not going to change behavior of coils in that scenario.
My concept which is laid out in my posts here have grounds on experiments and it is not a just  theory anymore...

Cheers!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 10, 2014, 11:54:25 AM
In experiments with alternating magnets passing by coils the coil responses are different from stationary magnetic polarities passing coils. This is what Jim, me and some other people are experiencing when setting up the test cases in experiments. Some people might deny that and flood another 1000 forum pages stating opposite without making experiment but that is not going to change behavior of coils in that scenario.
My concept which is laid out in my posts here have grounds on experiments and it is not a just  theory anymore...

Cheers!


Yep well said, no one is spinning mags here. If lenz is not getting in the way but is still there MAYBE, maybe it is something that can be harvested. I was thinking about something that TK said as well with his analogy of a hose. Pin the power in power out calcs though I don't understand where the mags are factored in. My exp is only prac here I've been looking for mainstream explanations but haven't found any yet. For me the mags are where the extra power is and with lenz not in the way we are free to harvest. In that scenario are we breaking any laws of physics? All the components are still there aren't they? Just configured differently.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 12:03:13 PM
What if we have a coil which accelerates under load (AUL) and wind a high current coil over it. 
Now we have two coils on the same core. The only difference is, one AUL and the other does not.
We connect a 1 Ohm resistor to each coil and add scope probe across each.
First we put the AUL coil under load and wait till the RPM is stable, then we also load the high current coil.
What do you think we should see on the scope? will each resistor sinewave happen at the same time or could we see a phase shift between each load resistor?

Luc:

I can't give you a definitive answer based on sketchy details.  What I can say is "AUL" is actually "AUDOL" - Acceleration Under Decreased Overall Load.   In a standard pulse motor configuration with a resistive load on the generator coil output the rotor will speed up because of reduced Lenz drag, not because of some unmeasured "delay in the onset of the Lenz drag."  There is no delay.

Supposing your generator coil has a resistance of 100 ohms.  What happens if the load resistor is 100 ohms and what does the RPM stabilise at?  How much power is being dissipated in the (generator coil plus the load resistor) when the load resistor is 100 ohms?  You can't ignore the resistance of the wire in the coil itself.

Now, what are your measurements if you change the load resistance to something less than 100 ohms?   Let's say you make the load resistor 25 ohms.  What about when the load resistor is greater than 100 ohms?  Then just repeat the process when the load resistance is 200 ohms and find out.

You are trying to understand how the pulse motor acts when the load resistor is equal to the coil resistance, less than the coil resistance, and greater than the coil resistance.  This is a fundamental investigation.  What about when you define "efficiency" as the "useful" power output into the load resistor versus the "useless" power dissipated in the coil itself.  How is this measurement for efficiency affected when you change the value of the load resistor?

In all three cases, using your two channel scope, do you detect any change in the timing of the output waveform relative to the rotor magnet fly-by?   You will not see any change in the timing of the output waveform relative to the rotor magnet fly-by confirming that there is no "delayed Lenz effect."

The key thing to understand is that the pulse motor final RPM is directly affected by the amount of power dissipated in the (coil + load resistor) system, and not just the load resistor alone.   The more power the (coil + load resistor) system is prone to dissipate, the slower the final RPM of the pulse motor will be.

Then to take it to the next step, you can investigate a generator coil with thin wire and lots of turns vs. thick wire with fewer turns.  Naturally the coil with thin wire and lots of turns will generate more EMF than the coil with thick wire and fewer turns.  Therefore for the coil with lots of turns, you can have an expectation that since the EMF output is at a higher voltage, it will operate in a very similar fashion to the coil with fewer turns as long as you increase the value of the load resistor.

If people did these kinds of investigations then when they see the rotor speed up when they change the load resistor they won't say to themselves, "wow, I have just replicated the delayed Lenz effect."   Instead they will have a much clearer understanding about what is actually taking place.  These very basic measurements can then give you more insight into what is going on and give you the knowledge and the skills to build better pulse motors in the future.

This is actually basic engineering.  Do you think that students of engineering just sit in class and listen to the teacher teach like a bunch of eggheads?  The answer is a resounding NO, you then go into a lab and you roll up your shirtsleeves and do the tests yourself and analyse the results.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 12:15:57 PM
In experiments with alternating magnets passing by coils the coil responses are different from stationary magnetic polarities passing coils. This is what Jim, me and some other people are experiencing when setting up the test cases in experiments. Some people might deny that and flood another 1000 forum pages stating opposite without making experiment but that is not going to change behavior of coils in that scenario.
My concept which is laid out in my posts here have grounds on experiments and it is not a just  theory anymore...

I am assuming that you are talking about a rotor with all North magnets facing outward vs. a rotor with alternating North and South magnets facing outward?  Certainly the waveform for the generator coil outputs will be opposite for North-outward vs. South-outward facing magnets.  If the rotor magnets are spaced far enough apart so the waveforms don't overlap then you can expect the power measurements to be the same.

If you are implying that I am denying something about that I haven't because I never even mentioned the "all North" vs. "alternating North-South" issue.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 10, 2014, 12:26:41 PM
I am assuming that you are talking about a rotor with all North magnets facing outward vs. a rotor with alternating North and South magnets facing outward?  Certainly the waveform for the generator coil outputs will be opposite for North-outward vs. South-outward facing magnets.  If the rotor magnets are spaced far enough apart so the waveforms don't overlap then you can expect the power measurements to be the same.

If you are implying that I am denying something about that I haven't because I never even mentioned the "all North" vs. "alternating North-South" issue.

MileHigh
Hi MH, in your experience where should the lenz force manifest in a n/s mag arrangement with the coil on one side of the mag and the steel rotor on the other side? Lenz field wouldn't be stronger than the mag would it? I mean the lenz field isn't going to jump over the mag and disturb the rotor. Just trying to understand things a little better - thanks
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 10, 2014, 12:34:07 PM
MH,

 http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/msg426103/#msg426103
Make a pendulum model, study its behavior on coil shorting then start opening circuit when iron bar is approaching coil and short it when it is under coil. After seeing what it does we can spend more time on discussion...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 12:34:17 PM
Hi Jimboot:

I can't comment because there is not enough information.  If you want to make a sketch a decent amount of detail in it and then describe the setup and make your question clear I will try to answer.

There is a phenomenon of being inside your "own bubble" at play here and it's a very common thing.  When you are inside your own bubble the question seems to be clear and obvious and makes sense.  For people outside the bubble things are not nearly as clear and obvious.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 10, 2014, 12:41:38 PM
Hi Jimboot:

I can't comment because there is not enough information.  If you want to make a sketch a decent amount of detail in it and then describe the setup and make your question clear I will try to answer.

There is a phenomenon of being inside your "own bubble" at play here and it's a very common thing.  When you are inside your own bubble the question seems to be clear and obvious and makes sense.  For people outside the bubble things are not nearly as clear and obvious.

MileHigh
Totally agree mate. That's why I'm looking for more input. I've built a much better rotor since this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Kf5RsTGZ4 but it will give you an idea what I'm talking about. Just trying to understand where lenz should be in that config.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 12:42:37 PM
MH,

 http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/msg426103/#msg426103 (http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/msg426103/#msg426103)
Make a pendulum model, study its behavior on coil shorting then start opening circuit when iron bar is approaching coil and short it when it is under coil. After seeing what it does we can spend more time on discussion...

Do you have a link with a description of what is going on in your diagram?   What about the claims you are making, do you have a link or can you state the claims here?   Do you have any pictures of a real setup or some YouTube clips?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 10, 2014, 12:48:49 PM

A proper examination of the above, supported by a little bench work will reveal a great deal.  When the comparison is made, it becomes clear which mode to use, and after a little quiet contemplation, one begins to understand which is better suited for generating, and which is better suited for motoring, there is a difference. 

One thing I note with regards to folks researching in this direction is that most have a more or less straight forward approach to motors, the problem is seen in that they take nothing that they learn from their experiences with motors and apply it to generators.  This implies many things, I hope this changes in the future, there are so many clever individuals here....spinning their wheels, burning rubber.....




Regards
I have a dynamo here that is same poles facing. However I'm thinking the phenomena requires alternate poles to cause the generation effect that I'm seeing. I haven't tested sames poles facing though
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 10, 2014, 12:54:51 PM
Do you have a link with a description of what is going on in your diagram?   What about the claims you are making, do you have a link or can you state the claims here?   Do you have any pictures of a real setup or some YouTube clips?
No time to waste, you have to experience in first hand on experiment before exchange of videos happen.Especially when 2 pages of your posts in this thread is just talk...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 10, 2014, 01:18:40 PM

I've watched your videos, and applaud your effort.  Regretfully however, we are not on the same page.  You have a very complex magnetic configuration, several configurations actually.  I am specifically referring to tests conducted with a standard solenoid, and a rotor with either like or alternating polarity.   There is a difference in function, and in principle.  In my opinion, (which you didn't ask for.....) We don't necessary need to know what magnetism is to understand how it moves, and what happens when it moves, both of which are well documented.  In the example I sight, the magnets move past the coils (standard).   There is none of this iron moving between stationary coils and magnets.

Is our negative bias towards Lenz justified?  Do we see the system as he saw it when he penned the law?  How can we fix and or correct that which we "consider" broken if we don't understand the system where the "negative" effect is manifesting, nor the mechanisms operating within that system which are responsible for the effect we wish to eliminate? 


Regards
Thanks for your opinion! I thought it was implicit in my post. Your response has helped me and for that I thank you
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 10, 2014, 01:29:29 PM
When moving iron bar becomes alternating magnet as it moves between magnets and coil the induced Lenz force stays between each magnet and coil in each period of time and is always trying to repulse stationary magnet and coil as magnetic flux increase in coil. It is on 90 degrees to iron bar movement and does not affect it in way you can expect with moving magnet. This is what we observe in our experiments. There are no mainstream science books about that case so old fashion experiment first and theory after should happen. The use of this case in generator cause no drag and more experiments need to be conducted before solid theory can be passed back to mainstream scientists...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 10, 2014, 01:35:30 PM
When moving iron bar becomes alternating magnet as it moves between magnets and coil the induced Lenz force stays between each magnet and coil in each period of time and is always trying to repulse stationary magnet and coil as magnetic flux increase in coil. It is on 90 degrees to iron bar movement and does not affect it in way you can expect with moving magnet. This is what we observe in our experiments. There are no mainstream science books about that case so old fashion experiment first and theory after should happen. The use of this case in generator cause no drag and more experiments need to be conducted before solid theory can be passed back to mainstream scientists...
That makes the most sense to me from my experiments
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 01:36:38 PM
No time to waste, you have to experience in first hand on experiment before exchange of videos happen.Especially when 2 pages of your posts in this thread is just talk...

No T-1000, it's not "just talk."  It real and solid information.  Your response is also rude.

You said this:

Quote
The bottom line of Lenz law (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.html#c2) and its use in conventional generators is more than 100 years old and this design has to be improved to the level where we do not fight it anymore at least. The end goal is to exploit the energy from magnets in same way as from the Sun and have generator design laid out where all basic physical forces are employed to work in way we want to have. Obviously the electrical form of energy is used most so the transformation from alternating magnetic field into electricity has to have right design where we do not need to put more energy in than there we have from magnets physical attraction and deflection already...

You are 100% wrong about "extracting energy from magnets."  You also believe that your pendulum system can somehow do something different and you are trying coil shorting techniques which don't really work.  Whatever you are building will generate some kind of output but the way it actually works when you look past the unique design will be 100% conventional.  The conventional output is "hiding" inside your design.  The danger for you is to "believe too much" that you are right and doing something special.  You pendulum setup appears to me like it will modulate some magnetic flux but the flux is going across the top of your coil.  Therefore the windings of the coil are barely cutting any changing magnetic flux because the flux is in the wrong direction.  The flux is primarily left-right but to be effective it should be up-down in your diagram.

Whatever you are building looks like it will have a very low power output because of the very limited amount of changing flux that is cutting through the turns of the coil.

There is no "energy to extract from magnets."  Magnets are just like a tool you hold in your hand like a hammer.  It's you arm that moves the hammer and provides the energy that results in the hammer doing some useful work.

Don't even try telling me that "I have to build it myself."  I am not making any claims, you are the one making the claims at it's up to you to prove them to your peers.  I know it's a lot of fun to just to the building and testing, but, in the true final analysis you will not have "cheated Lenz" or "discovered something new."  I know that you don't believe me.  You are just going to have to do what you are doing and either come to that realization yourself or eventually get bored and move onto something new.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 10, 2014, 01:42:36 PM
No T-1000, it's not "just talk."  It real and solid information.  Your response is also rude.

You said this:

You are 100% wrong about "extracting energy from magnets."  You also believe that your pendulum system can somehow do something different and you are trying coil shorting techniques which don't really work.  Whatever you are building will generate some kind of output but the way it actually works when you look past the unique design will be 100% conventional.  The conventional output is "hiding" inside your design.  The danger for you is to "believe too much" that you are right and doing something special.  You pendulum setup appears to me like it will modulate some magnetic flux but the flux is going across the top of your coil.  Therefore the windings of the coil are barely cutting any changing magnetic flux because the flux is in the wrong direction.  The flux is primarily left-right but to be effective it should be up-down in your diagram.

Whatever you are building looks like it will have a very low power output because of the very limited amount of changing flux that is cutting through the turns of the coil.

There is no "energy to extract from magnets."  Magnets are just like a tool you hold in your hand like a hammer.  It's you arm that moves the hammer and provides the energy that results in the hammer doing some useful work.

Don't even try telling me that "I have to build it myself."  I am not making any claims, you are the one making the claims at it's up to you to prove them to your peers.  I know it's a lot of fun to just to the building and testing, but, in the true final analysis you will not have "cheated Lenz" or "discovered something new."  I know that you don't believe me.  You are just going to have to do what you are doing and either come to that realization yourself or eventually get bored and move onto something new.

MileHigh


Cool that's what I needed to know. Thanks,
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 02:03:29 PM
Totally agree mate. That's why I'm looking for more input. I've built a much better rotor since this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Kf5RsTGZ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Kf5RsTGZ4) but it will give you an idea what I'm talking about. Just trying to understand where lenz should be in that config.

Hi Jim,

Okay I looked at your clip and now can more or less make sense of it.  The news from my end is not that good.  One possibility that comes to mind for me is that you stared out as a fresh newbie with a blank slate and willing to learn.  Then your first exposure to generators and pulse motors and all that stuff came exclusively from various free energy forums.  I am guessing your goal is to find the proverbial "alternative and better way" to implement a generator.

Honestly, I would advise that you "hit the reset button" and start over with a "brand new blank slate."  What you want to do is do some conventional research and some alternative research in parallel.  Mix and match and pick the "best of both worlds" or however you want to state it.

What I see in your clip is this:   You have a fan frame with magnets glued on the inside of the frame where I assume that the flux from the disc magnets is directed towards the center of the frame.  We can call that "radially polarized."  The you have your ferromagnetic rotor that also presumably has magnets glued on the circumference where they are also radially polarized.  Then you have your "pick-up bars" that pass changing magnetic flux to the coils that are suspended on the bars.

Assuming that I am more or less right, then when the rotor spins you get some sort of a flux "mish-mash" happening inside the metal rotor as the moving rotor magnets pass the stator magnets glued to the inside of the fan frame.  A very small proportion of this flux "mish mash" leaks into your pick-up bars and that results in the light bulb being faintly lit.

Please don't be offended, but that is right out of some some kind of Rube Goldberg motor-generator on drugs.  The fundamental goal when you design a generator is to get nearly all of the flux from your magnets to pass through the center holes in your pick-up coils so that you can extract power from the moving magnets with as much efficiency as possible.  It looks to me like your strange contraption might be seeing 0.5% of that flux.

Nonetheless, the fact that the light bulb lights up means there is a faint imperceptible Lenz drag on your spinning rotor.  There is just no way around that.   If that was your goal, to extract power and yet keep the Lenz drag to a bare minimum, sorry but no prize!  The feeble Lenz drag was there, providing the feeble power to light up your light bulb.

I hope that you are not offended, I am just giving you my honest opinion.  My honest advice would be to look at "regular electronics hobbyist" clips on YouTube for a month and take notes.  Do some basic research online also.   If you did that and got 30% up the "conventional learning curve" and then went back and looked at your generator I am pretty sure that you would blush!

Please don't shoot the messenger but that generator setup was just about the strangest generator setup I have ever seen in my life!  I don't care if I am being "politically incorrect" relative to this thread or this forum.  I have to be true to myself and be honest with you.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 02:23:29 PM
The real reason I dropped into this thread was to discuss the myths surrounding the "delayed Lenz effect" and clearly explain that it is all about understanding the power dissipation in the generator coil + load resistor.  I think I covered that issue in good depth and if anybody has any questions about that I would be pleased to respond.

I am not here to discuss builds and all that stuff, or any strategies for trying to "bypass Lenz" because that can't be done.  You don't have to believe my statements if you don't want to.  Anybody that wants to challenge what conventional electronics states about pulse motors and generators is welcome to do so with the caveat that the burden of proof rests on their shoulders.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 10, 2014, 02:27:56 PM
MH,

Your belief does not have place on experiments we are doing and magnets are source of energy like Sun is. How much it was ridiculed before solar panels was invented?
I see same situation here...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 02:47:41 PM
T-1000:

I wish you the best of luck with your research.  Also I hope that you have lots of fun in the process.  If the time comes where you want to present your final data and the results of your research I would be pleased to look at it.

Here is an ironic twist for you to consider:  Everybody says, "They said it was impossible to make a man-made flying machine and look what happened.  You can see how having a closed mind to new ideas can stop progress." 

However, it was the newspaper editors that said "a flying machine is impossible."  At the same time there were scientists researching aeronautics in the 1870s, 1880s, 1890s.  They built gliders big enough to carry a man and they made thousands and thousands of test flights.  This was happening at many places around the world in the 19th century.  Many researchers into flight in the 19th century knew that a flying machine was possible if only they had a strong enough and light enough power source.  They did the calculations and knew this with 100% confidence.  Finally, the gasoline engine was developed and we all know what happened after that.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Veritas on December 10, 2014, 07:13:40 PM
T-1000:

I wish you the best of luck with your research.  Also I hope that you have lots of fun in the process.  If the time comes where you want to present your final data and the results of your research I would be pleased to look at it.

Here is an ironic twist for you to consider:  Everybody says, "They said it was impossible to make a man-made flying machine and look what happened.  You can see how having a closed mind to new ideas can stop progress." 

However, it was the newspaper editors that said "a flying machine is impossible."  At the same time there were scientists researching aeronautics in the 1870s, 1880s, 1890s.  They built gliders big enough to carry a man and they made thousands and thousands of test flights.  This was happening at many places around the world in the 19th century.  Many researchers into flight in the 19th century knew that a flying machine was possible if only they had a strong enough and light enough power source.  They did the calculations and knew this with 100% confidence.  Finally, the gasoline engine was developed and we all know what happened after that.

MileHigh


yeah but davinci visualised, conceived and designed flying machines centuries before that. Intelligence, real intelligence looks centuries into the future, and the society of its era is unable to accept/comprehend its ideas. firstly something is "unimaginable", we cant even conceive its happening as a possibility and completely disregard it as scifi. on a second level it becomes utopian. we consider it theoretically possible but we believe it will happen centuries later or even never. and then there is materialization. but even when it happens society is too dumb and suspicious to digest it yet, so it goes through - a usually long - transition/adaptation period.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 10, 2014, 07:36:51 PM
What if we have a coil which accelerates under load (AUL) and wind a high current coil over it. 
Now we have two coils on the same core. The only difference is, one AUL and the other does not.
We connect a 1 Ohm resistor to each coil and add scope probe across each.
First we put the AUL coil under load and wait till the RPM is stable, then we also load the high current coil.
What do you think we should see on the scope? will each resistor sinewave happen at the same time or could we see a phase shift between each load resistor?


Regards

Luc



Luc:

I can't give you a definitive answer based on sketchy details. 

MileHigh

Since you are unable to answer this clear question based on never having done these kinds of tests, I'll give you the answer to my own physical test results.

The answer is; the Scope will show the resistor attached to the AUL coil to have a delay anywhere between 20 to 80 degrees compared to the resistor attached to the high current coil.

Please explain what could cause this delay between each load resistor when both coils are wound on the same core and obviously experiencing the identical magnet flux timing.

Once the effect is identified we can start using the correct term to describe it.

Regards

Luc
Title: to MILEHIGH
Post by: gyvulys666 on December 10, 2014, 08:14:59 PM
u just look  :-X but you do not do a s..t :-X
suspicious >:(
Title: Re: to MILEHIGH
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 10, 2014, 08:22:16 PM
u just look  :-X but you do not do a s..t :-X
suspicious >:(



People who enter swinging a dead cat are dismissed as trolls or shills.

Regards...


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gyvulys666 on December 10, 2014, 09:02:35 PM
ok lets say i am one of them what is next? :D
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 10, 2014, 09:05:17 PM
Since you are unable to answer this clear question based on never having done these kinds of tests, I'll give you the answer to my own physical test results.

The answer is; the Scope will show the resistor attached to the AUL coil to have a delay anywhere between 20 to 80 degrees compared to the resistor attached to the high current coil.

Please explain what could cause this delay between each load resistor when both coils are wound on the same core and obviously experiencing the identical magnet flux timing.

Once the effect is identified we can start using the correct term to describe it.

Regards

Luc

Well Luc I could sense the setup in your question but I gave you an answer filled with lots of information anyway.  Have you ever considered some of the issues that I mentioned?  I didn't answer your question because I could not magically be sure of the results unseen based on some sketchy information.  Nor is your setup the same as what I have been discussing the whole time.  I have always discussed a single coil driving a load resistor.

I can't tell you why you see what you see based on a few sentences from you.  On the other hand, over the years, how many times have you been "so sure of yourself" that you had convinced yourself that you had found a new discovery?  I think it's a least four or five times.  The last time you wanted to "rewrite the physics books."  It didn't happen.

You go ahead and explain why you see what you see.  I would be very interested to know why myself.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 10, 2014, 09:11:49 PM
I suspect the idea here is not to look for a way around Lenz law since it is a function of the current flowing in the coil and without it you are simply not generating any current.
The idea is to find a way to force the field through the coil against lenz but in such a way as to not feel the affect of the increasing lenz force on the rotor.
 
You can have delayed lenz in the same manner as you can have a delayed magnetic field through a core. A shaded pole motor relies on this fact and is achieved by the copper ring around the core to slow the progression of the field by using lenz itself.
 
It may be possible to switch the flux through the coil in such a way as to not cause significant lenz effect on the rotor or switching component itself. This is the main idea behind MEG devices (that never seem to work).
 
In the end, the more lenz in the coil, the more current is being generated. Finding a way to do this without much work applied, would be the trick!
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Veritas on December 10, 2014, 09:17:14 PM
Why moderators you dont post my previous post? please dont cencorship it, thanks.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 10, 2014, 09:54:39 PM
I suspect the idea here is not to look for a way around Lenz law since it is a function of the current flowing in the coil and without it you are simply not generating any current.
The idea is to find a way to force the field through the coil against lenz but in such a way as to not feel the affect of the increasing lenz force on the rotor.
 

The induced Lenz force(magnetic field) in coil has to be in place but its vector should be not aligned to the prime mover which is causing change of magnetic field. The only one way to get that is when magnet and coil is not on same direction as physical movement is. So it is up to everyone how to design that just the best case I find out is on 90 degrees between Lenz force and prime movement.

P.S> Maybe my explanations are not understood properly due non native English so it get ignored in this forum but eventually people who will spend time on experiments will arrive to what I am trying to say...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 10, 2014, 09:55:08 PM

I've watched your videos, and applaud your effort.  Regretfully however, we are not on the same page.  You have a very complex magnetic configuration, several configurations actually.  I am specifically referring to tests conducted with a standard solenoid, and a rotor with either like or alternating polarity.   There is a difference in function, and in principle.  In my opinion, (which you didn't ask for.....) We don't necessary need to know what magnetism is to understand how it moves, and what happens when it moves, both of which are well documented.  In the example I sight, the magnets move past the coils (standard).   There is none of this iron moving between stationary coils and magnets.

Is our negative bias towards Lenz justified?  Do we see the system as he saw it when he penned the law?  How can we fix and or correct that which we "consider" broken if we don't understand the system where the "negative" effect is manifesting, nor the mechanisms operating within that system which are responsible for the effect we wish to eliminate? 


Regards
Lenz is not a problem to begin with and it is not something you can reduce or remove.  System losses due to induction that does things like develop wasteful (if used improperly) eddy currents are things that can be minimized by a smart magnetics design.  All these attempts to cheat Lenz' Law are to me are as misguided and futile as a car manufacturer trying to improve mileage by trying to develop anti-gravity devices so as to reduce tire friction.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 10, 2014, 11:33:14 PM
Be careful about terminology:  A magnetic amplifier is a device that uses the non-linear characteristics of the transition from the linear portion of the B-H curve to the saturated portion in order to function as a signal amplifier.  By and large here we are talking about operation in the linear region of the B-H curve.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 11, 2014, 03:13:24 AM
Well Luc I could sense the setup in your question but I gave you an answer filled with lots of information anyway.  Have you ever considered some of the issues that I mentioned?  I didn't answer your question because I could not magically be sure of the results unseen based on some sketchy information.  Nor is your setup the same as what I have been discussing the whole time.  I have always discussed a single coil driving a load resistor.

I can't tell you why you see what you see based on a few sentences from you.  On the other hand, over the years, how many times have you been "so sure of yourself" that you had convinced yourself that you had found a new discovery?  I think it's a least four or five times.  The last time you wanted to "rewrite the physics books."  It didn't happen.

You go ahead and explain why you see what you see.  I would be very interested to know why myself.

MileHigh

I see you can't answer because you don't know, never done the experiment and does not fit your education.

Instead of saying you don't know, you try to make me look incompetent. Very sophisticated approach!
I chalenge you to show a post where I wrote we need to "rewrite the physics books" based on any of my experiment results.

Anyone who knows my style would know those are lies.
Since I make no claims, freely share what ever I find interesting in hopes to help other researcher.
You won't find any advertising on my videos. I have over 850,000 views, so I'm not doing this for monetary gain.
I volunteer 60 hours a week (do not get paid) just to do research, since the world is in such a bad place because of most know it all have concluded they know it all and there is nothing new to discover. I fact, they do their best to spread their kool-aid that it is so.
How ridiculous is that?... when gravity, magnetism and electricity are not fully understood by your fully knowledgeable science.

Enjoy finding the post to cover yourself

Kind regards

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 11, 2014, 03:46:43 AM
Noooooooo Luc...don't do it !

Your foot is too close to the tar baby.

The best thing to do is to direct your comments to the readership like I do...that really upsets and discourages them.

But I wood like to analyze the situation...

" Instead of saying you don't know, you try to make me look incompetent. Very sophisticated approach! "


Deflection transmitted on a projection carrier wave.



" I chalenge you to show a post where I wrote we need to "rewrite the physics books" based on any of my experiment results."


When you make stuff up, naturally you have to make up supportive scenarios...no matter how ridiculous.

Then you leave the thread and show up somewhere else with a fresh set of downs...just like in football.



" Anyone who knows my style would know those are lies. "


Recalling how indignant he was in claiming I had inferred that he was a liar, a few posts back...now he's really being accused of lying ?

This wood represent a 'cliff hanger' if this happened back in the old TV daze.

Regards...



Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: albator10 on December 11, 2014, 03:58:24 AM
The real reason I dropped into this thread was to discuss the myths surrounding the "delayed Lenz effect" and clearly explain that it is all about understanding the power dissipation in the generator coil + load resistor.  I think I covered that issue in good depth and if anybody has any questions about that I would be pleased to respond.

I am not here to discuss builds and all that stuff, or any strategies for trying to "bypass Lenz" because that can't be done.  You don't have to believe my statements if you don't want to.  Anybody that wants to challenge what conventional electronics states about pulse motors and generators is welcome to do so with the caveat that the burden of proof rests on their shoulders.

MileHigh

There are strategies to "bypass Lenz"

This is one.

 I dont say this is overunity but it will bypass the bad effect of the Lenz
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 11, 2014, 05:53:10 AM
So I have this theory to omit the Lenz drag from an iron rotor.
I also believe it's possibly the same theory Ecklin had.

Instead of trying to push a field into a coil and have Lenz fight the process, suppose we arrange the magnets in some efficient way on the other side of the coil.
Then the inner iron core simply creates a path for the flux.
Because the flux comes from the back of the coil the Lenz opposition will resist the field and in the worst case cause less drag on the rotor.

Lenz will simply delay the field depending on the coil load. More load the more it shades the rotor.
The power you can get out will depend on how well you can design it to achieve the most flux from the magnets through the coils.
In any case, the more current the less rotor drag.

Can you see it?

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 11, 2014, 07:22:46 AM
So I have this theory to omit the Lenz drag from an iron rotor.
I also believe it's possibly the same theory Ecklin had.

Instead of trying to push a field into a coil and have Lenz fight the process, suppose we arrange the magnets in some efficient way on the other side of the coil.
Then the inner iron core simply creates a path for the flux.
Because the flux comes from the back of the coil the Lenz opposition will resist the field and in the worst case cause less drag on the rotor.

Lenz will simply delay the field depending on the coil load. More load the more it shades the rotor.
The power you can get out will depend on how well you can design it to achieve the most flux from the magnets through the coils.
In any case, the more current the less rotor drag.

Can you see it?
Induction is the action, Lenz's Law only specifies the orientation.  If you go after eliminating induction, you eliminate either desired voltage generation in machine operating as a generator, or desired torque in a machine operating as a motor. 

It is sort of like trying to eliminate the force required to push something up an inclined plane:  You can reduce that force by lowering the incline angle of the plane.  But then you immediately and proportionately reduce the potential energy that you put into any mass you move up the plane.  The force that you would rather not have to work against is part and parcel to the energy that you would like to end up in the mass.  The same behavior occurs with induction:  Build a machine with a low BEMF constant and it will have a low torque/force constant.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 11, 2014, 07:58:35 AM
Luc:

Quote
I chalenge you to show a post where I wrote we need to "rewrite the physics books" based on any of my experiment results.

From your "Reactive Generator Research" thread from about a year ago:

http://overunity.com/14013/reactive-generator-research-for-everyone-to-share/150/#.VIk4g3sxLHg (http://overunity.com/14013/reactive-generator-research-for-everyone-to-share/150/#.VIk4g3sxLHg)

Quote
From what I now know and have proven to myself and shared with you all is: the only mistake is to believe what they have been teaching in Universities around the world.

The very reason I built a generator turned by an electric motor is to test if a circuit operating on a PF of Zero will have an effect on the Generator prime mover (mini Grid equivalent).
My generator load test is the only one available on the internet which proves you can have a power factor of Zero, output over 20 Watts of Real Power and have Zero effect reflected back to the prime mover. Just that in itself is amazing since engineers like Farmhand an so on say it's impossible to do.

Now, you did not literally state "rewrite the physics books" but the intent in what you state above is clear.  Then Poynt99 worked with you for a few weeks, and finally together you discovered where the measurement fault was.  It was something like using AC coupling when you should have been doing DC coupling or one of your scope channels was inverted, I don't remember the specifics.  I only glanced at the thread.

Look at the attached graphic for a typical pulse motor generator coil output waveform.  If the rotor is relatively large and the rotor magnets are far apart then the "dead zone" will be much larger.

Supposing that you have a rotor with four magnets equally spaced 90 degrees apart.  You hook up scope channel A to a sensor pick-up coil that is 90 degrees away from the actual generator coil.  You trigger on channel A.  You hook up scope channel B to the actual generator coil output.  When you run the pulse motor you can then try different types of loads on the generator coil and observe if there is any delay or "phase shift" in the generator coil output relative to the reference unchanging waveform on channel A.  That is the real way to see if there is a "Lenz delay."

Did you do that?  I don't think you did.  I think that you just saw the rotor speed up and you just assumed that there was a "Lenz delay."  Now when people see a rotor speed up they say that it is a "delayed Lenz effect" and it's wrong.

Why is it wrong?

He is what we all should know:  When you look at the attached graphic for a typical generator coil waveform, that can represent an unloaded generator coil waveform.  In the unloaded case, you are looking at the pure EMF from the coil.  We know how a coil generates EMF due to a changing external magnetic field.  We know that the load is a resistor.  We know that the frequencies are relatively low.  When we take all that into account, we conclude that there is no reason for a delay in the waveform of the generator coil output.  We are simply applying standard well-known electronics principles.

That is the reason I am telling you there should not be a phase shift.  If anyone wants to comment or disagree, they are welcome to.

Here is what we also know:  When we change the value of the load resistor connected to the generator coil, the amount of energy dissipated in the (coil resistance + load resistance) per rotor magnet flyby will change.  If the energy per fly-by decreases, then the Lenz drag will decrease and the rotor will speed up.  If the energy per fly-by increases then the Lenz drag per fly-by will increase and the rotor will slow down.

That is the reason the rotor changes speed.  That is my reasoning.  If anyone wants to comment or disagree please feel free.

Now, let's assume that I am correct.  There is no "delayed Lenz effect" and the speed change is simply related to the power dissipated in the generator coil system as it runs.

I am trying to help you guys understand so you can build better pulse motors.  When I hear people talking about the "delayed Lenz effect" I want to teach them what is really happening for their own benefit.  In contrast to this, if nearly all of the pulse motor builders keep on talking about the "delayed Lenz effect" then they are just preventing themselves from learning.  I figure people want to learn and they don't want to reinforce bad ideas.  Bad ideas can easily take on a life of their own and that is not a good thing at all.

All of you pulse motor builders with your pulse motors that have ever used the term "delayed Lenz effect" when talking about their own pulse motors should go back and make some measurements and check what is really going on.   Collectively, you owe it to yourselves to keep on learning an improving and to not lead yourselves down garden paths.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 11, 2014, 08:18:09 AM

I'm sure that you recognize that I have very little interest in the "by and large".  Perhaps this is not the time nor place for my suggesting alternatives.  I don't need to be careful about terminology, the terms I used apply to what I do, not what is being demonstrated here.  If you recall, I mentioned symmetrical operation, and non symmetrical operation, you can assume that by non symmetrical I am implying non linear, that is what I want, what I have found, what I use to get to that which this thread is discussing, namely, the effect (current limiting) associated with the induced is neutralized.  Comprehending the force in motors and taming it "is" the lesson for how to deal with it in generators.  Quite literally we are working with the generator in the motor, this is my take....I am here to share my experiences, not to state how it is, or why it is. 

I do appreciate you taking time to respond to my posts.  I guess it would be wise to stop at this point, as you have specified that you all are discussing something that I have little or no interest in. 


Regards
If you measure carefully you will find that there is no cheat on induction other than not to induce in the first place and therefore do nothing.  If you want to impart mechanical power through an electromagnetic machine then you do that via induction.  If you want to use mechanical power to impart electrical output through an electromagnetic machine then again you do that via induction.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 11, 2014, 08:39:40 AM
Induction is the action, Lenz's Law only specifies the orientation.  If you go after eliminating induction, you eliminate either desired voltage generation in machine operating as a generator, or desired torque in a machine operating as a motor. 

It is sort of like trying to eliminate the force required to push something up an inclined plane:  You can reduce that force by lowering the incline angle of the plane.  But then you immediately and proportionately reduce the potential energy that you put into any mass you move up the plane.  The force that you would rather not have to work against is part and parcel to the energy that you would like to end up in the mass.  The same behavior occurs with induction:  Build a machine with a low BEMF constant and it will have a low torque/force constant.

Did you even read what I suggested?

I want as much induction as possible and all the Lenz force I can get. That would mean good output.

Any increase in load would increase the Lenz force and that would serve to reduce rotor drag.

The idea is to have the flux already at one end of the coil and the rotor creates the path and lets the field pass through the coil.
In this configuration the Lenz force will impede the field through the coil as always, but will not fight the rotor because it's on the other side.

Like I said, I think this was Ecklin's theory.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 11, 2014, 09:20:17 AM
Did you even read what I suggested?
I read it carefully.  You keep using the word "Lenz" to refer to the effects of induction.  Lenz's Law only states the orientation of induced voltage.  Induction is as I stated the action.
Quote

I want as much induction as possible and all the Lenz force I can get. That would mean good output.
The mechanical force is the Lorentz force.
Quote

Any increase in load would increase the Lenz force and that would serve to reduce rotor drag.
Such an effect is unknown on this planet.  Induction couples the load to the source.  For any coupling coefficient greater than zero, more load means more drag on the source, not less drag.
Quote

The idea is to have the flux already at one end of the coil and the rotor creates the path and lets the field pass through the coil.
Whatever the idea, the reality is as just stated:  more load means more drag on the source.
Quote

In this configuration the Lenz force will impede the field through the coil as always, but will not fight the rotor because it's on the other side.
You keep saying "Lenz force" of which there is no such thing.  If what you mean is the Lorentz force the best that you can do is whittle away at sources of parasitic losses such as eddy currents.  If you drive those to zero, then the output power will be just slightly smaller than the input power.
Quote

Like I said, I think this was Ecklin's theory.
I don't care who originated or promoted the idea.  It has the problems stated.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 11, 2014, 10:15:15 AM
So much words fighting and no results. Where are your experiments following them?
Wish would be this amount of tests done in each post to share experience...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 11, 2014, 10:47:04 AM

I leave the measuring to those who are qualified to make the measurements.  I have no immediate desire to measure anything, having too much fun exploring, and contemplating the what ifs.  To measure implies that I am prepared to make a claim, and would support my claim with the data gained from the measurements taken during various experiments. 

My tone may be direct, and the reason for this is over the years I have sharpened my focus and know exactly what I want.  Knowing what I want comes across differently to different folks, please understand that I am in no means being offensive, please don't offend me by placing me in the box with those whose motivation is to circumvent a law they don't comprehend.  I am not nor have I suggested that I am looking to cheat anything. 

I don't want to impart mechanical power through an electromagnetic machine, not really sure what that means.  What I want is for the mechanical power to manifest within the electromagnetic machine, and this, without the limitations set and governed the internal mechanisms whose primary function is to oppose change.

Induction isn't a thing in and of itself, it is a complex mechanism. 

At any rate, please give me the benefit of the doubt, and assume that I have done at least a little homework and as such feel that I can come here and hold my own with others who have done their homework. Real progress in my opinion can only be made when we think for ourselves.  I am guided by those who wrote the laws, I am not governed by them, the laws nor the genius who wrote them,  and neither are the systems in which these so called laws are operating. 


Regards
I have done my share of measurements.  With respect to induction measurements they have always conformed to textbook formula within the error limits of the measurement set-up.  There are some very important relationships that at Newtonian velocities always hold:

Conservation of Momentum:  Momentum is conserved.
First Law of Energy:  Energy is conserved.
Newton's Second Law:  F = mA
Newton's Third Law:  For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Newton's Second and Third Laws together tell us that if we attempt to accelerate something that something will present us with a reaction force equal to the product of the thing's mass and the acceleration that we impress on that thing.  Now consider an arrangement:  an ideal electric motor coupled to an ideal electric generator coupled to an ideal electric motor.  If the whole thing except for the two motor shafts were concealed inside a black box then we would be unable to distinguish  the behavior of the two shaft ends from that of a single solid shaft of equivalent inertia supported by ideal bearings.  When we are not talking about things like eddy current losses, the "Lenz drag" that people bemoan is just the load reflected back to the source as Newton's Third Law says that it must.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Veritas on December 11, 2014, 11:52:41 AM
WHY DO YOU CENCORSHIP MY COMMENT? THAT'S UNFAIR. IM NOT TROLLING. I HAD ANOTHER ACCOUNT I TRIED A WHOLE AFTERNOON TO RESET THE PASSWORD AND THE SYSTEM WAS BROKEN. I PUT THE NEW CODE AND ALWAYS SHOWED "ERROR", SO I HAD TO MAKE A NEW ONE. PLEASE DONT BE UNFAIR.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 11, 2014, 04:18:14 PM
Lenz's Law only states the orientation of induced voltage. 

Yes, customarily the Lenz's law states the polarity of the induced voltage.
...but the wording of this law also mentions current that is caused by this voltage.  See below:
Quote from: Wikipedia
An induced electromotive force (emf) always gives rise to a current whose magnetic field opposes the original change in magnetic flux.

When applied to a behavior of a coil, this wording is somewhat inconsistent because current does not flow if the coil is open
(non-conducting).  This impacts the validity of the word "always".

However, when the coil is closed (conducting) then the induced voltage causes a current flow whose magnetic field opposes the original change in magnetic flux penetrating this coil. 
This response happens immediately without delay.  The Viscous Remanent Magnetization (http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/html/vrmexpen.htm) experiment does not invalidate this immediacy, because it applies to the delayed behaviour of a ferromagnetic core - not the response of a coil to a changing magnetic flux.

Furthermore, according to my experiment [1 (http://overunity.com/14443/quantum-energy-generator-qeg-open-sourced-by-hopegirl/msg402619/#msg402619)] and prof. John Belcher [2 (http://web.mit.edu/physics/people/faculty/belcher_john.html)] from MIT Department of Physics, if no resistance hampers the induced current in a coil, then its magnetic field not only "opposes" the original change in magnetic flux, but it opposes it so much, that the total magnetic flux penetrating this coil remains constant
In an ideal coil this behavior is independent of the flux change rate, too.

The Wikipedia's wording of Lenz's law states the polarity of the induced voltage and current in response to changing magnetic flux and as such it is a qualitative statement.

I think it would be more informative to expand the wording of this law to a quantitative form.

Any ideas how to phrase it well?


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 11, 2014, 05:03:23 PM
Furthermore, according to my experiment [1 (http://overunity.com/14443/quantum-energy-generator-qeg-open-sourced-by-hopegirl/msg402619/#msg402619)] and prof. John Belcher [2 (http://web.mit.edu/physics/people/faculty/belcher_john.html)] from MIT Department of Physics, if no resistance hampers the induced current in a coil, then its magnetic field not only "opposes" the original change in magnetic flux, but it opposes it so much, that the total magnetic flux penetrating this coil remains constant
In an ideal coil this behavior is independent of the flux change rate, too.
The QEG is close to the concept in first post due changing coil inductance with passing by part of core. But to go further when that part of core is shorting flux path between magnet and coil and is doing movement on 90 degrees to flux path.
Here is question to answer in MIT lab experiment: will induced magnetic flux vector(Lorenz force) be on 90 degrees to kinetic force which brings core between magnet and coil?
I hope you can do this test in lab there and return with answer.. ;)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 11, 2014, 05:13:28 PM
I hope you can do this test in lab there and return with answer.. ;)
I had already verified that the "Gary effect" is real.

My post was not about the QEG, it was about the qualitative wording of the Lenz's law, which was recently discussed in this thread.

I put a link to the QEG thread only because I had some info about my experiment there. This experiment was not related to the operation of the QEG.  It just happened to come up in that thread.

Now back to the subject at hand:
How would you phrase the Lenz's law quantiatively?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 11, 2014, 05:31:04 PM

Now back to the subject at hand:
How would you phrase the Lenz's law quantiatively?
"For every action there is opposite reaction" which means same strength magnetic field is induced in coil to oppose flux change. This is cause of cogging.
1) If the magnet is moving this reflects against movement.
2) If the coil and magnet are stationary the resulting kinetic force will remain mostly between these two ends. The kinetic force which will cause magnetic switching in coil will remain unaffected when its vector is on 90 degrees. This is what I am asking to test in lab.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 11, 2014, 05:33:00 PM
For those who are interested I looked through the comments from the other Indonesian inventor who posted his video two years ago and then vanished into thin air, something like Syairchairun....

 Here are some of the things he had to say...

URL of his mogen, it is the orange one I linked to in an earlier post... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Ea8xVt0yk



Sorry, I do not feel as inventor. Maybe there are more ahead of me and probably better. Here I will just hold experiment. I just assemble and combine several existing components.

Q Generators have you modifisikasi be permanent magnets?
A AVR generator must be modified slightly. If necessary, given the generator output voltage remains stable stavolt that will keep the electric motor rotation. To exchange information, please contact to my email usweentop@gmail.com

Thank you for the correction. Free in question is free from pollution. Free from fossil fuel dependency

Sorry, this experiment still many shortcomings. And we continue to find the best solution. To exchange information, please contact to my email. usweentop@gmail.com

I have not tried. For a while, my focus into AC current circulation. Load power that is used must not be greater than or equal to the power produced by the generator. The output power must be limited. That's the point of MCB. Congratulations to you who already tries to lighting in your area. success always (Reminds me of Syairchairun running the welder and maxing his generator out, probably why the belt and sound anomaly occured)

True. The basic theory like that. The tricky part is that you have to modify the AVR generator and seek appropriate comparison poly

AVR generator must be modified to maintain the stability of the output. only the

The generators and electric motors has been modified to be permanent magnets. Time delay Provides sufficient time for stability of voltage and frequency


1) AC Generator 220 V, 5000 kVA, 1500 rpm. 2)Electric Motor 220 V, 1200 watt, 1 HP, 2850 rpm. 3) Timer Delay. 4) Magnetic Contactor. SALAM

Q Hello unsweentop, very good work. I guess that the 1500rpm generator is 4-pole, but the 2850rpm motor is 2-pole. Is that right? Thanks.
A Yes, you right. But there is was modificated to be permanent magnet

(Question)   Box on top of the orange electric motor is clearly not part of the original motor and is large enough to house a batter to power the device. Why do these people never show schematics and demonstrate that no fraud is evident? What are they hiding?
(Answer) No, I'm not hide anything. I just waiting for right time and right place to share my experiment for right man.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on December 11, 2014, 06:40:04 PM

This is what I am building right now.

Cheers

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 11, 2014, 06:50:57 PM
This is what I am building right now.

Cheers

Looking forward to your reports...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 11, 2014, 06:53:16 PM
"For every action there is opposite reaction" which means same strength magnetic field is induced in coil to oppose flux change. This is cause of cogging.
1) If the magnet is moving this reflects against movement.
2) If the coil and magnet are stationary the resulting kinetic force will remain mostly between these two ends. The kinetic force which will cause magnetic switching in coil will remain unaffected when its vector is on 90 degrees. This is what I am asking to test in lab.

I agree that the Lenz's law is similar to the Newton's 3rd law:
"Every action is attended by an equal and opposite reaction"

The word "equal" makes it more of a quantitative statement.

However, I think that it is too much of a change from what's written at Wikipedia now.
The original statement relates change of magnetic flux to induced emf and current and I'd like to keep the reference to these 3 players in this statement. Also I do not want to pollute this statement with secondary concepts such as motion of flux sources and forces.

The Faraday's law of induction makes a quantitative statement about the sign and magnitude of the EMF relative to the time rate of flux change (dΦ/dt) but it makes no statement about the magnitude of the induced current.
Quote from: Wikipedia
"The induced electromotive force in any closed circuit is equal to the negative of the time rate of change of the magnetic flux enclosed by the circuit."

Usually the current can be calculated from Ohm's Law I=EMF/R but that law is useless in an ideal coil (e.g. SC current loop) because in such coils R=0.

For completeness, we need a quantitative statement that directly relates the magnitude of induced current to the change of magnetic flux (ΔΦ) such as in my experiment.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 11, 2014, 07:57:20 PM
Supposing that you have a rotor with four magnets equally spaced 90 degrees apart.  You hook up scope channel A to a sensor pick-up coil that is 90 degrees away from the actual generator coil.  You trigger on channel A.  You hook up scope channel B to the actual generator coil output.  When you run the pulse motor you can then try different types of loads on the generator coil and observe if there is any delay or "phase shift" in the generator coil output relative to the reference unchanging waveform on channel A.  That is the real way to see if there is a "Lenz delay."

Did you do that?  I don't think you did.  I think that you just saw the rotor speed up and you just assumed that there was a "Lenz delay." Now when people see a rotor speed up they say that it is a "delayed Lenz effect" and it's wrong.

Why is it wrong?

He is what we all should know:  When you look at the attached graphic for a typical generator coil waveform, that can represent an unloaded generator coil waveform.  In the unloaded case, you are looking at the pure EMF from the coil.  We know how a coil generates EMF due to a changing external magnetic field.  We know that the load is a resistor.  We know that the frequencies are relatively low.  When we take all that into account, we conclude that there is no reason for a delay in the waveform of the generator coil output.  We are simply applying standard well-known electronics principles.

That is the reason I am telling you there should not be a phase shift.  If anyone wants to comment or disagree, they are welcome to.


MileHigh

The experiment can be setup the way you suggest and there is still a 20 to 80 Degrees phase delay on the load from the AUL coil compared to the sense coil.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 11, 2014, 08:43:40 PM
Below is a chart showing the electromagnetic induction laws defining direct relationships between electromagnetic induction variables in a closed circuit.
Note that the Lenz's law relates the change in magnetic flux to the induced EMF () and current (i) only qualitatively.
In other words, the Lenz law (as currently stated) tells you how and in which direction stuff gets induced but it does not tell you "how much".

Note that you can use the Faraday's law and Ohm's law to indirectly establish a quantitative relationship between dΦ/dt and i variables, as long as the resistance of the circuit is greater than zero (R>0).
These two laws are incapable of directly and indirectly relating dΦ/dt  and ΔΦ to i in a superconducting loop, such as the one in my experiment.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 11, 2014, 09:10:06 PM

See, I knew you would be one of the few who would be in the position and of the proper mindset to measure when measuring is required.  The scientific community doesn't need my assistance verifying the validity of the observations they felt justified in calling laws.  I owe it to myself to find deeper meaning in those things which "would" impede my progress.  I see the force as it manifests in the motor and seek to understand it, the laws all of them, are a guide to me, that's it. 

Guided by the laws, I have developed my own way of looking at these systems, on several occasions I have tried, and failed (the latter more often than the prior) to communicate what I see, my perspective with others.  I need not define "inductance" for you know what it is, general description is that its that property which opposes the starting, stopping, and changing of current or flux.  The relation that inductance has to self induction you know.  I view self-induction as if it were (and it is) a generator, one which operates more or less independent from the induced.  The output, when conditions are established making an output possible from the actions of self-induction, can be directed against the induced proper.  In my experience the proper mixing of the two AC sources result in the reversing of the current limiting.  Consumption inverts, increasing with increasing RPM versus decreasing as is customary.

We owe it to ourselves and the authors of the laws to think outside of the box they built for us, or at the very least, use the sand in the box to build a box of our own.




Regards
The bottom line is that modification or repeal of a law requires reliable data that refutes the law.  And with respect to the laws we have been discussing that is where the challengers all fall flat.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 11, 2014, 09:15:37 PM
Yes, customarily the Lenz's law states the polarity of the induced voltage.
No, not customarily:  ALWAYS.  Lenz's Law states ONLY orientation.
Quote
...but the wording of this law also mentions current that is caused by this voltage.  See below:
When applied to a behavior of a coil, this wording is somewhat inconsistent because current does not flow if the coil is open
(non-conducting).  This impacts the validity of the word "always".
There is no problem.  Without current flow there is no induced magnetic field.  There is only induced voltage.
Quote

However, when the coil is closed (conducting) then the induced voltage causes a current flow whose magnetic field opposes the original change in magnetic flux penetrating this coil. 
This response happens immediately without delay.  The Viscous Remanent Magnetization (http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/html/vrmexpen.htm) experiment does not invalidate this immediacy, because it applies to the delayed behaviour of a ferromagnetic core - not the response of a coil to a changing magnetic flux.
We agree that induction is immediate.
Quote

Furthermore, according to my experiment [1 (http://overunity.com/14443/quantum-energy-generator-qeg-open-sourced-by-hopegirl/msg402619/#msg402619)] and prof. John Belcher [2 (http://web.mit.edu/physics/people/faculty/belcher_john.html)] from MIT Department of Physics, if no resistance hampers the induced current in a coil, then its magnetic field not only "opposes" the original change in magnetic flux, but it opposes it so much, that the total magnetic flux penetrating this coil remains constant.
Zero resistance leads to a perfect image current, yes.
Quote
In an ideal coil this behavior is independent of the flux change rate, too.

The Wikipedia's wording of Lenz's law states the polarity of the induced voltage and current in response to changing magnetic flux and as such it is a qualitative statement.

I think it would be more informative to expand the wording of this law to a quantitative form.

Any ideas how to phrase it well?
A Scotsman did that rather nicely.  His name was Maxwell.
Quote
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 11, 2014, 11:03:33 PM
The experiment can be setup the way you suggest and there is still a 20 to 80 Degrees phase delay on the load from the AUL coil compared to the sense coil.

Regards

Luc

Fine, but that is just an observation.  You apparently don't know why that is happening and therefore you can't draw any conclusions from it.

Also, your first measurement should be with a standard setup with a single output coil.  That is what is being discussed.  You want to take it to a next step with two coaxial coils with different properties, that's fine but it is a different discussion.  It may be similar, but it is still a different discussion.

I am also not comfortable with the term "phase delay."  It's because although the waveform is periodic, it's really just a stream of pulses with what I am calling a "dead band" in between.  I know I am splitting hairs here but simply quoting the milliseconds of delay would be the more appropriate way to express what you are observing.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 11, 2014, 11:40:33 PM
Quote
And that is why you can see the drive side using far more input power at 100% than at 1% capacity output of this coil..

Not in the case of a typical pulse motor.  The input power will vary in a different way from the output power.  The input power and the output power are only loosely coupled.  You can see only marginal changes in input power for significant changes in the output power of the generator coil into the load resistor.  There are various variables at play resulting in this relationship.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 12, 2014, 12:37:54 AM
Below is a chart showing the electromagnetic induction laws defining direct relationships between electromagnetic induction variables in a closed circuit.
It is all good and nice classic model when you have single input power source and single closed loop circuit.
When it comes to two input power sources which are not directly related to each other then this model does not apply anymore.

Like from my concept (http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/msg426062/#msg426062) you can compare that case to vacuum triode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triode): The main closed circuit is magnetic flux from magnet inducing current in coil and the weak  force regulating magnetic flux resistance in its path is the external kinetic energy switching that flux over moving iron core. The small change of kinetic movement causes great change in magnetic flux... In this case you get secondary reaction delivering power where primary action is doing same function as catalyst in chemical reaction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalysis).

Cheers!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 12, 2014, 01:04:36 AM
This is what I am building right now.

Cheers

Cadman, could you put some leaders on your cad model explaining the parts.
It's hard to tell the coil directions and some other parts.
 
Thanks
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: verpies on December 12, 2014, 01:43:04 AM
Sponsored links:
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 12, 2014, 02:29:19 AM
I am working on this concept because I have all the parts laying around.
Then I will do some tests to determine how well lenz forces in the coil can affect the rotor and if there is any advantage to flux switching.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Cadman on December 12, 2014, 06:46:42 AM

Cadman, could you put some leaders on your cad model explaining the parts.
It's hard to tell the coil directions and some other parts.
 
Thanks

Look here :)
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/19851-topic-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning-5.html#post268293

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 12, 2014, 12:20:46 PM
It is all good and nice classic model when you have single input power source and single closed loop circuit.
When it comes to two input power sources which are not directly related to each other then this model does not apply anymore.

Those laws are just elementary building blocks for induction problems.  Electromagnetic induction is the production of an electromotive force across a conductor and electric current when it is exposed to a varying magnetic field.

That chart does not encompass the various phenomena involving ferromagnetic materials.  It concerns only the phenomena happening in air coil induction.  It disregards the source of varying magnetic flux, motions and forces acting on those sources.  It just assumes the varying flux as given and provides answers how a coil responds to that.

I posted this chart to illustrate that the Lenz's law is just a qualitative law which merely defines the direction of the induction and the other laws do not help to define the magnitude of the induced current - especially in ideal coils.

Like from my concept you can compare that case to vacuum triode: The main closed circuit is magnetic flux from magnet inducing current in coil and the weak  force regulating magnetic flux resistance in its path is the external kinetic energy switching that flux
over moving iron core. The small change of kinetic movement causes great change in magnetic flux... In this case you get secondary reaction delivering power where primary action is doing same function as catalyst in chemical reaction.

Yes, any system involving a ferromagnetic component (a permanent magnet or ferrite or soft iron, etc...) is way too complicated to be defined solely by these simple simple induction laws, Alas!, books have been written about the BH curve alone.

However, the response of an air coil to the final flux picture - is always the same and easily describable by these induction laws.


P.S.
"Magnetic flux resistance" = Reluctance.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 12, 2014, 01:53:43 PM
NoBull:

Quote
Yes, any system involving a ferromagnetic component (a permanent magnet or ferrite or soft iron, etc...) is way too complicated to be defined solely by these simple simple induction laws, Alas!, books have been written about the BH curve alone.

This is not the case.  Yourself, and others in this thread, seem to be alluding to various kinds of "fringe" angles to various things when there really aren't any.  Ferromagnetic materials consist of nothing more than a bunch of little magnets that obey the same laws and act in exactly the same way as big magnets.  That's the beauty of it.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 12, 2014, 02:08:44 PM
However, the response of an air coil to the final flux picture - is always the same and easily describable by these induction laws.
If you take away the fact the second power source is managing the flux change then it is close. In full picture it is not quite same... ;) The moving iron core between coil and magnet makes it different.
The best option here is just to make experiment then do all measurements you want before making any conclusions and assumptions...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 12, 2014, 02:32:05 PM
I am working on this concept because I have all the parts laying around.
Then I will do some tests to determine how well lenz forces in the coil can affect the rotor and if there is any advantage to flux switching.


there is no way to generate in this consept; may be volts but not amperes! you must find a core at least four poles. But do it who knows if we will learn some thing.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 12, 2014, 02:36:52 PM
NoBull:
This is not the case.  Yourself, and others in this thread, seem to be alluding to various kinds of "fringe" angles to various things when there really aren't any.  Ferromagnetic materials consist of nothing more than a bunch of little magnets that obey the same laws and act in exactly the same way as big magnets.  That's the beauty of it.
I am not alluding anything like that.  My point was that ferromagnetic materials are not as easy to describe as a coil's response to a varying magnetic flux.  Good luck analyzing the Gary motor with the just the Faraday's law and Lenz's law.

Could you even prove with these laws, that the flux enclosed by a closed superconducting loop remains constant and independent of any external flux, despite that this problem does not even involve any ferromagnetic materials ?

Ferromagnetic phenomena such as the BH curve, magnetostriction, Villiari effect, magnetoacoustics, VRM, Curie temp., μ-f curves, magnetocalorics, modulation of permeability by external E fields, etc... require a whole set of more complex tools (laws).

Also, remember that a lack of proof of existence is not a proof of nonexistence.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 12, 2014, 02:42:53 PM

there is no way to generate in this consept; may be volts but not amperes! you must find a core at least four poles. But do it who knows if we will learn some thing.
That's not true I can light a bulb with two poles. [size=78%]http://youtu.be/y3kbDQuoERA (http://youtu.be/y3kbDQuoERA)[/size]


What lumen will need to do though is place the coils perpendicular to the rotor though to maximize up. The better design is the one Cadman and syair have shown where the steel passes between the coil an mag..still try it lumen but get an extra coil to measure what is coming out the front. It will be double or triple what you get off the sides in that rotor.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FatBird on December 12, 2014, 03:06:33 PM
Nice Motor Prototype & setup.  Thanks for sharing Jim.
                                                                                                      .
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 12, 2014, 03:24:43 PM
I caught up with t1000 and grum via video and it was great to put a person behind t he handle . I think it's too easy sometimes to take cheap shots at each other when all we see is a username. I just want to thank everyone for their contribution.  Just keep in mind there are new people here who don't know there are really smart fantastic people behind those usernames. All they read is what we publish.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 12, 2014, 04:10:40 PM

there is no way to generate in this consept; may be volts but not amperes! you must find a core at least four poles. But do it who knows if we will learn some thing.

Hi thngr
The idea is to have a small magnetic loop contained within the core of the coil. This loop induces no current in the coil so there is no lenz while the loop is contained.
As the rotor turns the loop will break into two loops, one still within the coil core and the other through the rotor.
When the loop expands it will cross the conductors and inducing current and lenz will push back but not on the rotor.
As the rotor turns further, the loop will be shorted back again to a small loop within the coils core.
 
Because the magnetic loop originates from within the coils core, lenz from current in the coil cannot influence the objects in the new path because it has already taken place before the magnetic loop reaches the controlling core.
Just another idea to test.
 
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 12, 2014, 05:28:10 PM
That's a washing machine stator if i'm not mistaken, i did want to use it but i need a lathe to make some parts and that's what i don't have at my disposal now...sadly... :(

Looking forward to hear if that configuration can produce energy without lenz working against it... :)

Yes it is a washing machine stator.
I have been looking at it for some time until I finally understood how to get around lenz drag!

First, all magnetic fields are simply loops.
If you bring a coil with an iron core near the magnet, the loops cross through the coil into the core. The loops cutting through the coil to get into the core is what generates current.

If the coil has a load or is shorted then the current generated produces it's own field but opposite direction of the intersecting loops and so resists the incoming loops. This is lenz.
So how do you get around this?

Just think of it in reverse. Suppose the magnetic loop is contained within the coil.
Now if the loop is directed outside the coil, then as the loop cuts the conductors and there is a load or the coil is shorted, lenz will generate the opposite field to hold the loop inside the coil's core.
This cannot increase the load on the outer loop distracting device because lenz can only serve to reduce the loop connections making the rotor turn easier.

So in effect, lenz would be working to reduce the work under load and without any load, would turn only the same as any other well build generator.


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Madeo on December 12, 2014, 05:43:07 PM
I just have a thought about Lenz problem.   If a coil produces a counter EMF that opposes the rotor's magnet,  what if we wound two coils (bifilar) ?  One clockwise and the other counter-clockwise.  When the magnet approaches the coils,  the two coils will produce CEMF that will be opposite polarities to each other. They will cancel each other out and leaving the magnet itself with very little opposition as it passes by.....  They will still be influence by the magnet's  Magnetic field and would still produce power.   This is just a theory,  of course.





Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 12, 2014, 07:35:45 PM
I just have a thought about Lenz problem.   If a coil produces a counter EMF that opposes the rotor's magnet,  what if we wound two coils (bifilar) ?  One clockwise and the other counter-clockwise.  When the magnet approaches the coils,  the two coils will produce CEMF that will be opposite polarities to each other. They will cancel each other out and leaving the magnet itself with very little opposition as it passes by.....  They will still be influence by the magnet's  Magnetic field and would still produce power.   This is just a theory,  of course.

The current will flow in the same direction in both coils irrespective of which way they are wound......
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Madeo on December 12, 2014, 07:51:28 PM
The current will flow in the same direction in both coils irrespective of which way they are wound......


Even if that were the case,  the coils would still produce opposite fields relative to each other which will cancel their CEMFs. I wish I haven't dismantled my bedini motor.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 12, 2014, 08:31:01 PM

Even if that were the case,  the coils would still produce opposite fields relative to each other which will cancel their CEMFs. I wish I haven't dismantled my bedini motor.

No, the field would be the same and the voltage generated would be opposite.
Lenz is always counter the inducing field direction or there is no current flow.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 12, 2014, 08:33:11 PM

Even if that were the case,  the coils would still produce opposite fields relative to each other which will cancel their CEMFs. I wish I haven't dismantled my bedini motor.
There is a common misconception that if two power sources are connected in parallel + to - / - to + that their EMFs cancel.  The falsity of that idea is readily demonstrated by the amount of heat dissipated by each source and the wiring in between.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 12, 2014, 09:13:12 PM

Even if that were the case,  the coils would still produce opposite fields relative to each other which will cancel their CEMFs. I wish I haven't dismantled my bedini motor.

Two strands of copper lying beside each other are not going to experience the effect of a magnetic field in a different way from each other, so they will not produce fields that would be different from one another. It does not matter from which direction they were placed beside each other. You cannot reverse the flow of electrons winding one coil from the left and one from the right. If it would work I believe Tesla and many others would have done it a long time ago.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Madeo on December 12, 2014, 09:50:22 PM
There is a common misconception that if two power sources are connected in parallel + to - / - to + that their EMFs cancel.  The falsity of that idea is readily demonstrated by the amount of heat dissipated by each source and the wiring in between.


I think i know what you are talking about.  It is similar principle to a resistor using opposing coils to cancel their EMFs but still allows current to pass.  Heat will be dissipated as a result. What I was proposing is using the opposing coils (bifilar wounded) as a generator in an attempt to circumvent Lenz.  My concerns would be that it may not produce voltages/current at all   or  that both coils would produce the same magnetic poles regardless of their windings as mentioned by a previous poster. Since, i have completely destroyed my Bedini motor,  I can't test this idea.  However, i will try a proof of concept by winding a small and simple coils then run a magnet through to see if would generate a voltage. If it does, then it would be worth investigating if the Lenz can be negated this way...


Peace  :)



Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Madeo on December 12, 2014, 09:55:47 PM
Two strands of copper lying beside each other are not going to experience the effect of a magnetic field in a different way from each other, so they will not produce fields that would be different from one another. It does not matter from which direction they were placed beside each other. You cannot reverse the flow of electrons winding one coil from the left and one from the right. If it would work I believe Tesla and many others would have done it a long time ago.


you are probably right.  If that video we saw was legit,  i don't see how else he could achieve the lenz-less effect while maintaining the same dimensions of the original motor/generator.  If it was done any other way,  there would be some significant alterations to its internal components that may be evident with rods or extra coils sticking out of the generator itself... Just a thought.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 12, 2014, 10:17:00 PM
Good thing i don't have that issue and i don't know what type of circuit you're using to drive your pulse motors... ??? ...bedini, newman circuits can give strange readings because the energy that is needed from the trigger coil to activate the base of the transistor depends on the rpm of the rotor... :(
And i have little experience with bedini and newman type circuits...i mostly work with Mosfet/Hall drive circuits... ;D

Since my pulse motors are driven by Mosfet/Hall circuits every little bit of lenz effect from the generator coil can be seen and heard at the drive side wich is perfect because for me to improve on something i must be able to see, hear and feel it so i wouldn't want to have it any other way... 8)
The moment the generator rotor starts to slow down for even a tiny bit the pulse duration of the hall sensor becomes longer and this reflex immediately on the input power... 8)

And it really doesn't matter if the drive rotor and generator rotor are on the same shaft, 3 shaft or even 6 shaft connected by pulleys and belts...Lenz effect will always be felt by the drive side... 8)

And i mostly work wih aircore coils wich is the best way to learn about the lenz effect because there no core to give you extra cogging before you start to use the capacity of the coil... ;) 8) ;D

MOSFET or transistor doesn't really matter, both will act as a switch to energize the drive coil.  I agree with you about the energy required to drive the base resistor to switch on the transistor possibly being an issue.  That is a design issue for any pulse motor based on a trigger coil and a base resistor - can you find a trigger coil configuration and a value of the base resistor that gives you the most efficient operation for the triggering system?   However, that's an issue that is above the level of a typical pulse motor builder so it never gets discussed.  See, that's a "rock and a hard place" moment right there.  You get criticized for not being a "builder."  If you are not a "builder" then you have "no right" to talk about something.  Then, if you talk about something that is above the level of a typical pulse motor builder, then it is "just words" and more "laws" stuff.  It's a no-win situation.

You can hear some effects of the Lenz drag from a generator coil and observe some changes in the pulse motor.  The most obvious one is that the pulse motor RPM will decrease.  However, there is a "problem" with typical pulse motors in that they have notoriously little average torque, and they also have very limited capacity to respond to an increased load situation, like adding a generator coil, and output more power to try to maintain the same rotor speed.

You say the rotor slows down and that means the drive coil is energized for a longer time.  That's true, but the ON percentage time per revolution stays about the same.  So the rotor slows down under load, but the power duty cycle that energizes the drive coil stays about the same.  Therefore the input power to the motor stays about the same.

That suggests another potential winner for the Pulse Motor Build Off 2015:  Design a pulse motor that senses when a load is put on the rotor and then compensates by increasing the input power to bring the rotor back to the approximately the same speed.  In other words, design a pulse motor that fixes the "flaw" in the basic pulse motor architecture.  You could do it all-analog, or do it with a microcontroller.  Personally if I was going to take up the challenge, I would go the analog route.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 13, 2014, 03:15:35 AM
MOSFET or transistor doesn't really matter, both will act as a switch to energize the drive coil.  I agree with you about the energy required to drive the base resistor to switch on the transistor possibly being an issue.  That is a design issue for any pulse motor based on a trigger coil and a base resistor - can you find a trigger coil configuration and a value of the base resistor that gives you the most efficient operation for the triggering system?   However, that's an issue that is above the level of a typical pulse motor builder so it never gets discussed.  See, that's a "rock and a hard place" moment right there.  You get criticized for not being a "builder."  If you are not a "builder" then you have "no right" to talk about something.  Then, if you talk about something that is above the level of a typical pulse motor builder, then it is "just words" and more "laws" stuff.  It's a no-win situation.

You can hear some effects of the Lenz drag from a generator coil and observe some changes in the pulse motor.  The most obvious one is that the pulse motor RPM will decrease.  However, there is a "problem" with typical pulse motors in that they have notoriously little average torque, and they also have very limited capacity to respond to an increased load situation, like adding a generator coil, and output more power to try to maintain the same rotor speed.

You say the rotor slows down and that means the drive coil is energized for a longer time.  That's true, but the ON percentage time per revolution stays about the same.  So the rotor slows down under load, but the power duty cycle that energizes the drive coil stays about the same.  Therefore the input power to the motor stays about the same.

That suggests another potential winner for the Pulse Motor Build Off 2015:  Design a pulse motor that senses when a load is put on the rotor and then compensates by increasing the input power to bring the rotor back to the approximately the same speed.  In other words, design a pulse motor that fixes the "flaw" in the basic pulse motor architecture.  You could do it all-analog, or do it with a microcontroller.  Personally if I was going to take up the challenge, I would go the analog route.

MileHigh
A PLL or just a high DC gain speed regulator would do that.  The control loop can be implemented in software or hardware.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 13, 2014, 11:14:05 AM
Quote
The duty cycle on time will be the not the same...going faster means less time on(and less input) and going slower means more time on(and more input) needed to reach the same distance of each duty cycle... (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
The distance each duty cycle travel at each trigger magnet in each revolution will stay the same which is independent of the speed/rpm...

Well let me just show you my reasoning.  We can just look at this in a generic sense "on paper."  It does not necessarily apply to any specific pulse motor.  We know that in most cases the current consumption of a pulse motor does go up when it slows down because of a generator coil load and I am about to show you some reasons why it shouldn't.  I will deal with that later.

Please see the two attached graphics.  We are working with a trigger coil and base resistor and transistor configuration for this example.  A Hall-effect version will be slightly different which I will discuss later.

The first graphic shows the pulse motor running at high speed with no generator coil load.  The voltage above the green threshold represents when the transistor switches ON.

The second graphic shows the pulse motor running at low speed with a generator coil driving a load resistor.  Because the motor has slowed down, the voltage from the trigger coil decreases.  Therefore less of the waveform is above the trigger threshold an the ON duty cycle decreases.

So notice, at first glance, the duty cycle for switching the transistor ON is actually higher when the motor is running at a higher RPM.   That would suggest that the current consumption should actually be higher and the power consumption be higher when there is no generator coil.  We know that normally that is not the case and the current consumption goes up when driving a generator coil.  So there must be other factors at play.

Some other factors affecting the current consumption:

When the transistor switches ON, the current does not instantly flow through the coil, it takes time to build up.  That can mean if you are switching too fast, the current never has a chance to reach higher levels.  So this factor will tend to reduce the current consumption as the RPM increases.  The way check this is to put a current sensing resistor on the drive coil.  You can't take anything for granted when it comes to investigating the timing of your pulse motor, you have to measure it yourself.

When the transistor switches ON, some of the energy supplied to the coil is the "payload" energy that actually pushes on the rotor.  That means that this "payload" "eats" some of the voltage drop associated with the current flow.  That will also act like an inductance and slow down the increase in current.  So that is a factor that reduces the current consumption also.

When the rotor shows down, the transistor is ON for longer periods.  That means that there is more time for the current to increase in the coil.  If the coil is on "too long" then that can become an issue.  You know your maximum current in the coil, it's just the battery voltage divided by the coil resistance.  If you see on your scope that when the rotor RPM is low that a big chunk of the current through the drive coil is at its maximum, then for a big chunk of the time the drive coil is mostly acting like a resistor dissipating battery power as waste heat.  This reduces the efficiency of the pulse motor and will tend to increase the current consumption as the rotor RPM decreases.

Here is a possible "danger":  The resistance of your drive coil is very low, and so the current can get very high.  If you are not monitoring the current though the drive coil with your scope (assume a very low resistance coil), then you don't know if the current through the drive coil is getting excessively high at low RPMs.  It's possible that that is the reason the current consumption is going really high and it has almost nothing to do with the Lenz drag from the generator coil output.  If this is taking place it's seriously decreasing the efficiency of your pulse motor.

So there is the reasoning.  The truth is that very few pulse motor builders do these kinds of investigations because they don't have the "hard core" electronics experience.  But if you look over what I just wrote, it's not really that hard to do.  I don't build, but if I did build, that would be the fun for me.  It would be to check the current through the drive coil and look at all of the timing issues and stuff like that to get to "know" your pulse motor.

For a Hall-effect sensor, it is only is affected by the magnitude of the magnetic field of the rotor magnets.  The magnitude of the magnetic field does not change if the rotor spins faster or slower.  That's in contrast to the pick-up coil voltage that is affected by the RPM, and that does have an affect on the ON duty cycle.  So in theory the ON duty cycle when using a Hall sensor will not change as the RPM changes.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 13, 2014, 11:23:45 AM
There are assumptions about the control going on there.

Coil inductance slows the rate of change in current for a given applied voltage.
Kinetic BEMF subtracts from the available applied voltage for a given power supply voltage.

A sophisticated control would use a relatively high supply voltage in order to overcome both effects under the intended operating conditions.  It would also chop the voltage when the current reaches a desired level.  Even more sophistication would alter that current depending on the rotor position.  That is in essence what chopping microstepping motor controls do.  Those little boards that you can buy for just $3.00 per axis do a really nice job of synthesizing sine and cosine current patterns in the two windings as the motor rotates.   You can typically hook up a 35V supply to one of those boards and run a motor that can only stand a few volts DC across either winding.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 13, 2014, 11:36:20 AM
Nice going Jimboot,
Your setup is as different as mine was...but that's a good thing not to be scared to go in different directions... :)
Mine setup can produce alot more energy but my issue was...massive cogging and lenz effect... >:( :'(

I have a few idea's so hopefully i can reduce the cogging and lenz effect without reducing the output...i've already collected the stuff i need to build them...just need time now...lol

Keep at it mate... ;)


Thanks mate. I found that a single layer of mags gives much less cogging but the extra Rpms you get makes up for any loss. Also my ratio of mags to steels is 9:2 . I've also run it on a pulse motor with very little torque. I'm rebuilding now with a totally new rig using a Siemens perm mag ac motor rotor as my internal stator. Just trying to work out my cylinder rotor for the steels. I don't want to use plastic because of the potential heat from the eddy currents as grum found out.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 13, 2014, 11:59:10 AM
There are assumptions about the control going on there.

Coil inductance slows the rate of change in current for a given applied voltage.
Kinetic BEMF subtracts from the available applied voltage for a given power supply voltage.

A sophisticated control would use a relatively high supply voltage in order to overcome both effects under the intended operating conditions.  It would also chop the voltage when the current reaches a desired level.  Even more sophistication would alter that current depending on the rotor position.  That is in essence what chopping microstepping motor controls do.  Those little boards that you can buy for just $3.00 per axis do a really nice job of synthesizing sine and cosine current patterns in the two windings as the motor rotates.   You can typically hook up a 35V supply to one of those boards and run a motor that can only stand a few volts DC across either winding.

Thanks for that info on the controller boards.  Indeed, that would be a great design and I had often thought about doing something like that for a pulse motor design in a homebrew fashion.  I guess in engineering parlance you are trying to make a "matched filter" for the coil excitation.

You could do it with a microcontroller running a real-time OS.  Or even develop your own real-time OS from scratch.  The microcontroller inputs clock ticks for the RPM and a once-per-revolution reference tick.  You run a process to measure and filter the RPM clock tick signal and create a corresponding high frequency internal RPM clock.  Let's say you slice the 360 degrees of rotation into 4096 "approximately synchronous" clock ticks.  You literally just have to crunch some numbers and then poke some bits into an internal timer register.  Then, you just allocate say 128 or 256 bytes of memory for a look-up table in memory that stores the coil voltage excitation waveform.  So every time you pass TDC for a magnet fly-by, you synchronously clock out the 128 or 256 bytes of data to make the voltage waveform to drive the coil.

Once you have all of that set up, then you could experiment with loading different coil excitation waveforms into the look-up table.  That's where the real fun would come in.  You could use "Human Fuzzy Logic" (TM) to experiment with the waveform.  Like the proverbial squirrel learning to crack open a nut, eventually you could converge on the perfect voltage waveform for driving the coil with maximum efficiency.  That would be "The Mother of all Sweet Spots."  That would have been a blast for me way back when!

Another strong contender!  lol

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 13, 2014, 12:35:53 PM
With off the shelf parts it can be far simpler than that.  Off the shelf controllers use a fixed off time control on the chopper PWM.  The off time can be tuned as can the drive current.  It is not too hard to use as many of these low cost drivers as needed, including dedicating one driver to each coil if needed.  The specifics of the motor design will determine the simplest and most effective way to initially synchronize and stay synchronized between the drivers and the shaft. 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: verpies on December 13, 2014, 03:00:53 PM
If the coil is on "too long" then that can become an issue.  You know your maximum current in the coil, it's just the battery voltage divided by the coil resistance.  If you see on your scope that when the rotor RPM is low that a big chunk of the current through the drive coil is at its maximum, then for a big chunk of the time the drive coil is mostly acting like a resistor dissipating battery power as waste heat.  This reduces the efficiency of the pulse motor and will tend to increase the current consumption as the rotor RPM decreases.
Quite true.  The break-even point between the energy delivered to a coil and dissipated in the resistance occurs at 1.15 Tau.
I have written an article about this issue here (http://overunity.com/15095/pulse-motor-build-off-time/msg427460/#msg427460).
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: albakaly on December 13, 2014, 04:29:22 PM
Hai, after i post myvideo about generator no effect lenz law, Now I will show U it can selfrunning, only use myhand to start,
and ths video i will show short coil and no efect lenzlaw, and I will show next mygenerator 10kva its same project, differnt only its has only 4pole run in 1500rpm toget 50hz, its same with mygenrtor 5kva, in mygnrtor 5kva i use 40pole stator coil in wire pararel,220v.0.5A 50hz percoil in only 100-120 rpm, but its very expensve i use 162 prmnen mgnet and it gve very high cogng when start.

In next plan mygenrtr 10kva i dnt use prmnen mgnet, only elctromgnetc ( 80v.4A exciter), and i dnt modfication coil in stator its original, and i use coupling 1 by 1 of motor and gnerator no use pulley or gearbox, they are expnsve,

And i will show the animation how to it work,

Next video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWU12Db_MY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWU12Db_MY)

I think same it wth device James W german, But it linear flux magnetic but in Ramadan device is circular flux magnetic..

The key is magnet and stator coil not spining or rotate and rotr made by softiron rotate between them..

Thank's..
I think this type of device is real, and work.
Some here in Yemen has built another one the same as this and there is a report from our official channel about his invention, the dynamo type and the same parts, but he did not show any details about it, only work with friction as he said, Here is a video from the official TV of Yemen. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RauMRITF-uk (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RauMRITF-uk)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 13, 2014, 08:54:22 PM
Here is the basic architecture for a pulse motor with feedback if anybody wants to build one.  I just marked up a graphical image for a standard servo control system.  How you actually choose to implement the system is up to the designer and builder (not me.)
Title: Re: to MILEHIGH
Post by: MileHigh on December 13, 2014, 09:17:21 PM
u just look  :-X but you do not do a s..t :-X
suspicious >:(

Well, it looks like I had an honourary sock puppet created for me.  How about that!  Not such a big talker now, are you Mr. Sock Puppet "Gyvulys666?"

You are the one that doesn't do shit and is suspicious.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 13, 2014, 11:29:17 PM
Mister Caribbean Roots:

Quote
Well, it's really up to the builders if they want to know about someting or not...it all depends on what the purpose is when you build something... (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Do we want to learn about something and maybe improve it or do we just want to replicate it as a fun hobby project...

I can't disagree with you there.   However, if you are going to get technical and share technical information with your peers, then you want to say things that are correct and make sense.  You have a responsibility to do your own checking.  So for example, there is no "delayed Lenz effect."  Likewise, if you say, "When I add a generator coil to my pulse motor the the RPM decreases and the current consumption increases. Therefore the added mechanical load of the generator coil is the cause of the increased current consumption."  With a pulse motor, as we now know, there are many things that can affect the current consumption so that statement is not necessarily true.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 13, 2014, 11:47:40 PM
Mister Caribbean Roots:

I can't disagree with you there.   However, if you are going to get technical and share technical information with your peers, then you want to say things that are correct and make sense.  You have a responsibility to do your own checking.  So for example, there is no "delayed Lenz effect."  Likewise, if you say, "When I add a generator coil to my pulse motor the the RPM decreases and the current consumption increases. Therefore the added mechanical load of the generator coil is the cause of the increased current consumption."  With a pulse motor, as we now know, there are many things that can affect the current consumption so that statement is not necessarily true.

MileHigh
What is your take in regards to coil resistance MH. Is it better to have a coil of high resistance(many turns of small wire),or a coil with low resistance(few turns with a larger gauge wire)?. We will say our pulse motor will be useing a 12 volt power supply for the P/in.Our coils will be of the air core type. What coil would produce more losses in an identical setup?.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 13, 2014, 11:58:28 PM
What is your take in regards to coil resistance MH. Is it better to have a coil of high resistance(many turns of small wire),or a coil with low resistance(few turns with a larger gauge wire)?. We will say our pulse motor will be useing a 12 volt power supply for the P/in.Our coils will be of the air core type. What coil would produce more losses in an identical setup?.
Tinman usually one figures out the voltage / current versus turns that can be supported with an acceptable temperature rise for a given winding shape.  Then the choice of wire diameter is made based on the maximum voltage of the available power supply and whether or not a chopping drive will limit current.   If no chopping is used, then temperature rise is the usual criteria.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 14, 2014, 12:22:06 AM
Tinman usually one figures out the voltage / current versus turns that can be supported with an acceptable temperature rise for a given winding shape.  Then the choice of wire diameter is made based on the maximum voltage of the available power supply and whether or not a chopping drive will limit current.   If no chopping is used, then temperature rise is the usual criteria.
OK,i will make it a little clearer.
We are building a pulse motor(lets just say a simple SSG circuit).We are looking for torque and inductive kickback collection.We are useing a 12 volt battery as our P/in sorce,with a limit of 250mA for I/in. Our air core coil formers are of a fixed size.

So what we want to know is-->what would be better ,lots of turns of a smaller gauge wire(higher resistance) or fewer turns of a larger gauge wire(lower resistance)?.Which coil would loose more to heat?,which coil would produce a stronger magnetic field for the P/in avaliable?.

These are things i already know,and the questions are just to see and help those that may not know the answers to these questions.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 14, 2014, 01:09:19 AM
OK,i will make it a little clearer.
We are building a pulse motor(lets just say a simple SSG circuit).We are looking for torque and inductive kickback collection.We are useing a 12 volt battery as our P/in sorce,with a limit of 250mA for I/in. Our air core coil formers are of a fixed size.

So what we want to know is-->what would be better ,lots of turns of a smaller gauge wire(higher resistance) or fewer turns of a larger gauge wire(lower resistance)?.Which coil would loose more to heat?,which coil would produce a stronger magnetic field for the P/in avaliable?.

These are things i already know,and the questions are just to see and help those that may not know the answers to these questions.
What are you relying on to limit the current to 250mA?  If it is the winding and you would not saturate any magnetics at 250mA times the number of turns, then you would design your winding for 12V/250mA = 48 Ohms.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 14, 2014, 01:27:07 AM
What are you relying on to limit the current to 250mA?  If it is the winding and you would not saturate any magnetics at 250mA times the number of turns, then you would design your winding for 12V/250mA = 48 Ohms.

You know what-forget it Mark.
Contrary to belief,rocket science is really quite simple.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 14, 2014, 05:24:52 AM

Btw,Lenz effect can be delayed or slowed down... :o ;) 8)...yep, i know already...it's not true...lol
Cheers
Indeed TJ,but there are many here that will disagree. The fact is that not only can it be delayed,it can be completely reversed so as to add torque to the prime mover. The proof is in the fact that an electromagnetic field dose have a speed limit--it dose take some time to develope,as the speed is not infinite. Man has done many test to confirm the speed of light,but what about the speed of a magnetic field?-is it faster than the speed of light,or slower ???. One little hint is that if we apply a heavy load(low resistance) to the inductive kickback of an inductor when it becomes open circuit,the magnetic field around that inductor will collap's slower than if we applied a lite high resistive load to the inductive kickback.

Now-here is a question.
Dose the magnetic field invert when the inductor becomes open,and a load is applied to the inductive kickback,or dose it remain the same field orientation. Is it the voltage polarity of that inductor that determonds the magnetic field orientation,or the direction of current flow through that inductor?.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 14, 2014, 06:22:52 AM
I'm saying magnetic loops.
Everything is a magnetic loop. :D
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 14, 2014, 08:08:02 AM
What is your take in regards to coil resistance MH. Is it better to have a coil of high resistance(many turns of small wire),or a coil with low resistance(few turns with a larger gauge wire)?. We will say our pulse motor will be useing a 12 volt power supply for the P/in.Our coils will be of the air core type. What coil would produce more losses in an identical setup?.

Resistance is the enemy for a pulse motor drive coil because it represents lost energy as waste heat.  So low resistance is preferable.  If you have few turns with larger gauge wire you have less resistance but a weaker magnetic field compared to more turns for the same current.  It's all a trade off between resistance, the strength of the magnetic field, and the rise time for the current to really start flowing, and nature of the rotor and magnet configuration, etc.  So there is no simple and easy answer.  I can't tell you precisely what will give you more losses in an identical setup.

However, nothing is stopping an experimenter from doing some tests if they want.  You could make some kind of multi-tap coil and try making measurements at different tap settings, etc.

My gut feel is telling me that a lower-resistance lower-turn coil would be better overall.  However, like Mark has mentioned already, with a lower-resistance lower-inductance coil, you would probably have to chop the main drive pulse into a series of shorter pulses to get good push on the rotor with minimum resistive losses.  The shorter pulses are needed to make sure that the current does not get too high.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: georgio78 on December 14, 2014, 09:52:38 AM
GUYS WHY HAS THIS THREAD BEEN TAKEN OVER BY PULSE MOTOR CRAP!
THERE IS ANOTHER ONE OR TWO THREADS ALREADY OPEN FOR THAT TOPIC PLEASE DON'T FLOOD THIS TOPIC UNLESS IT HAS SOMETHING CLOSE TO WHAT SYAIR ORIGINALLY POSTED FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 14, 2014, 10:16:31 AM
Resistance is the enemy for a pulse motor drive coil because it represents lost energy as waste heat.  So low resistance is preferable.  If you have few turns with larger gauge wire you have less resistance but a weaker magnetic field compared to more turns for the same current.  It's all a trade off between resistance, the strength of the magnetic field, and the rise time for the current to really start flowing, and nature of the rotor and magnet configuration, etc.  So there is no simple and easy answer.  I can't tell you precisely what will give you more losses in an identical setup.

However, nothing is stopping an experimenter from doing some tests if they want.  You could make some kind of multi-tap coil and try making measurements at different tap settings, etc.

My gut feel is telling me that a lower-resistance lower-turn coil would be better overall.  However, like Mark has mentioned already, with a lower-resistance lower-inductance coil, you would probably have to chop the main drive pulse into a series of shorter pulses to get good push on the rotor with minimum resistive losses.  The shorter pulses are needed to make sure that the current does not get too high.

MileHigh
As it turns out for a given magnetic field strength the power loss is theoretically almost completely independent of the wire diameter and resistance.  The loss follows I2*R, but the required I for a given field strength is inversely proportional to the number of turns N.  The number of turns that can be fit into a winding window is inversely proportional to the wire cross-sectional area, and R is proportional to the length of the wire, hence the number of turns and inversely proportional to the area.  In a first approximation where we ignore the proportion of wire area taken up by the insulation:

So:  PLOSS = (K1/N)2*K2*N2 = K12*K2

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 14, 2014, 10:22:00 AM
It's my believe and interpretation of what i see wich i never try to impose on the ones asking the questions...it's their decision to decide if they are gonna go with it or not and that's the way it should be... ;)

LOL...you are beating around the bush here... ::)
Pulse motor running at a certain rpm nice and steady with a Mosfet/Hall circuit and when i load it with a coil lenz effect takes place and the drive see that effect...but according to you there are some other things/factors also placing a load on the drive side and that's one of the reasons i see the input increase... ??? ...lol...you are very funny...and it makes no sence to me...lol

Anyway, you have the right to believe what you feel is right and so i do... ;)
Btw,Lenz effect can be delayed or slowed down... :o ;) 8) ...yep, i know already...it's not true...lol
Cheers

There are no "interpretations" or "beliefs" when it comes to trying to understand how a pulse motor works and understanding its performance characteristics.  I am not beating around the bush.  I summarized what I said in two sentences, and if you look back about two pages the detailed reasons are all there explained point by point.  There is nothing funny about it, it's all there if people want to learn and it all makes perfect sense.

No indeed, there no "delayed" or "slowed down" Lenz effect.  If you or Timnan disagree, then you have to back up your statements with examples and analysis.  It's the way the world of electronics works.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 14, 2014, 10:38:26 AM
Indeed TJ,but there are many here that will disagree. The fact is that not only can it be delayed,it can be completely reversed so as to add torque to the prime mover. The proof is in the fact that an electromagnetic field dose have a speed limit--it dose take some time to develope,as the speed is not infinite. Man has done many test to confirm the speed of light,but what about the speed of a magnetic field?-is it faster than the speed of light,or slower ??? . One little hint is that if we apply a heavy load(low resistance) to the inductive kickback of an inductor when it becomes open circuit,the magnetic field around that inductor will collap's slower than if we applied a lite high resistive load to the inductive kickback.

Timman, I am surprised at reading this from you, you seem to be all over the map.  You can't take Lenz drag and convert it into Tinman's push!  It doesn't work like that.  Any time you state something radical like that you would have to back it up with some hard experimental evidence.  The "speed of a magnetic field" is the speed of light.

Quote
One little hint is that if we apply a heavy load(low resistance) to the inductive kickback of an inductor when it becomes open circuit,the magnetic field around that inductor will collap's slower than if we applied a lite high resistive load to the inductive kickback.

The slow speed of the collapse of a magnetic field around a coil when discharging through a low resistance load has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of a magnetic field's propagation into 3D space, which is the speed of light.

Quote
Dose the magnetic field invert when the inductor becomes open,and a load is applied to the inductive kickback,or dose it remain the same field orientation. Is it the voltage polarity of that inductor that determonds the magnetic field orientation,or the direction of current flow through that inductor?.

I am really surprised that you wrote the above.  The orientation remains the same, and it has nothing to do with the voltage at all.  It is the direction of current that determines the orientation of the magnetic field.  It's like you are rolling back the clock five years here.  You have to know this stuff by now.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 14, 2014, 11:03:10 AM
As it turns out for a given magnetic field strength the power loss is theoretically almost completely independent of the wire diameter and resistance.  The loss follows I2*R, but the required I for a given field strength is inversely proportional to the number of turns N.  The number of turns that can be fit into a winding window is inversely proportional to the wire cross-sectional area, and R is proportional to the length of the wire, hence the number of turns and inversely proportional to the area.  In a first approximation where we ignore the proportion of wire area taken up by the insulation:

So:  PLOSS = (K1/N)2*K2*N2 = K12*K2

Thanks Mark, I kind of suspected that it might be a zero-sum type of game.  So to me that means you are back to a timing issue again.  In other words pick a coil inductance that gives you a magnetic field of a certain strength within a certain amount of time so that you can match it with the attributes of your rotor and the speeds that you want to run at, etc.  I suppose you are always thinking about not overloading the battery either because the battery becomes less efficient at higher current draws.

Here is what would be a good pulse motor competition but I think it's beyond what you will see around here:  I am going to assume at typical true-RMS meter requires a 25 Hz or higher periodic waveform to work properly.  Let's say every participant has to put 3 watts AC into a load resistor with a value of their choice.  This comes from a generator coil and the waveform period has to correspond to 25 Hz or higher.  So the competition would be to build a pulse motor to do that, and the winner is the person that builds the pulse motor that requires the least amount of average input power.  There would have to be near-zero direct coupling between the drive coil(s) and the generator coil and every competitor in the contest would have to prove this.

The other good thing about this competition is that the back-EMF spike from the drive coil is now pretty much useless and of no importance.  So people would have rethink that one-track-mind business about collecting the back-spike into a capacitor.

A good competition where you have to agonize about minimizing your input power for the same output power.  It would be really cool and it's a reflection of the real world where engineers struggle with that issue every day when they design portable electronics devices.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 14, 2014, 11:28:56 AM
Here's a shot of the latest build. Have to work on the rotor steels next and then the coils

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 14, 2014, 11:31:21 AM
Hi there,

I wonder where are everyone at with tests of passing iron core between magnets and coils in experimental generators.
This would be interesting to know... :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 14, 2014, 12:28:43 PM
Thanks Mark, I kind of suspected that it might be a zero-sum type of game.  So to me that means you are back to a timing issue again.  In other words pick a coil inductance that gives you a magnetic field of a certain strength within a certain amount of time so that you can match it with the attributes of your rotor and the speeds that you want to run at, etc.  I suppose you are always thinking about not overloading the battery either because the battery becomes less efficient at higher current draws.
Well this depends on what kind of drive you intend to use.  While the current is changing, eddy currents cancel most of the net flux change.  So having a higher voltage drive to overcome the inductance quickly offers advantage, provided that it then chops to hold the current at the desired level. 

If you are going to use a simple ON/OFF type drive the L/R time constant tends to drop out as well.  R and L are both proportional to N2.  Low voltage and high current cause efficiency problems in other parts of the circuit, and N affects the BEMF constant as well as the torque constant.  If you want to use integrated drivers, they go up to about 40V and 2.5A.  If you need more oomph than that, the design goes discrete.  Up to 10A is relatively easy to handle.  When you go above 10A and 40V then you have to start worrying about safety issues, packages get crappier inductance wise and the whole design task gets much bigger.
Quote

Here is what would be a good pulse motor competition but I think it's beyond what you will see around here:  I am going to assume at typical true-RMS meter requires a 25 Hz or higher periodic waveform to work properly.  Let's say every participant has to put 3 watts AC into a load resistor with a value of their choice.  This comes from a generator coil and the waveform period has to correspond to 25 Hz or higher.  So the competition would be to build a pulse motor to do that, and the winner is the person that builds the pulse motor that requires the least amount of average input power.  There would have to be near-zero direct coupling between the drive coil(s) and the generator coil and every competitor in the contest would have to prove this.
An off the shelf toroidal transformer would win under those rules.
Quote

The other good thing about this competition is that the back-EMF spike from the drive coil is now pretty much useless and of no importance.  So people would have rethink that one-track-mind business about collecting the back-spike into a capacitor.
Not really.  The stored energy regeneration from discharging coil magnetization energy is reclaimed stored energy just like the energy reclaimed from dynamic braking is.  Reclaiming the energy back into the power source reduces net power requirements and keeps the drive electronics relatively cool.  In step motors and DC brushless motors the current has to reverse often.  Reclaiming the L*I[sup2[/sup] energy helps keep the electronics running cool and safely within rated voltage limits.  You can kind of think of this process as a crazy driver who runs their car back and forth without ever turning around:  Full blast forward acceleration, forward cruise, deceleration to stop, then full blast reverse acceleration, reverse cruise, and then forward acceleration to stop completing the cycle.
Quote

A good competition where you have to agonize about minimizing your input power for the same output power.  It would be really cool and it's a reflection of the real world where engineers struggle with that issue every day when they design portable electronics devices.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 14, 2014, 12:51:01 PM
GUYS WHY HAS THIS THREAD BEEN TAKEN OVER BY PULSE MOTOR CRAP!
THERE IS ANOTHER ONE OR TWO THREADS ALREADY OPEN FOR THAT TOPIC PLEASE DON'T FLOOD THIS TOPIC UNLESS IT HAS SOMETHING CLOSE TO WHAT SYAIR ORIGINALLY POSTED FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!
Yeah Hey guys, there's people trying to work here. If you could just take it down the street to the pub, that'd be great.  ;D  Sounds like a great debate you're having, it's just that its getting in the way of the work. Stefan do we need another thread? It'd be great to share our stuff here but it sure is getting noisy. 


Love to talk about  principles specific to this motor:
Best materials for fast pole switching. - I've used laminate steel, ferrite. My next set of steels will be steel shot based on Paul Babcock's work. We need something that will flip it's poles quick and that is what Paul is suggesting.


Cylinder Rotors Vs Disc
I've had no luck with discs.


Cogging
I over came this by placing the mags as close as possible to each other and have a lot fewer rotor irons. My last video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3kbDQuoERA

What coils and where do we put them.
Keeping in mind this is a different sort of motor so is the flux we are trying to capture in the same spot? Certainly on some of my design I was getting higher readings perpendicular to the rotor.


Specifically where is BEMF in this design?
I'm not saying it is absent, I just visually need to understand where it is. What pole is it, what does look like, what footy team does support etc. When steel passes a mag what specfically happens to the bemf when we draw the current from a pickup coil. Visually? I've been looking and can't find anything. But pass a magnet over a coil? No probs, got heaps of that info out there. Not necessary here though as we need to no now what happens to it this config. Love a drawing of that if someone can find one.


At the moment I'm building my 6th basic design and probably 12th motor. I'll upload the vid soon



Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 14, 2014, 12:55:21 PM
.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: georgio78 on December 14, 2014, 01:28:23 PM
HEY GUYS I RECENTLY PURCHASED TWO ST 4 POLE AC SYNC GENERATORS EXACTLY
AS SYAIR SHOWED IN HIS LAST VIDEO ONE GEN WILL BE THE PERMANENT MAGNET 220 RPM ALREADY ORDERED MAGNETS AND STATOR IS GETTING REWOUND AS SYAIR STATED! AND FOR THE OTHER GEN I'M PUTTING TOGETHER THE 1500 RPM HAVING IRON LAMINATIONS CUT TO SIZE AS WE SPEAK AND ALSO MY MACHINIST HAS STARTED THE WORK FOR MACHINING OF END PLATES ETC IT WILL BE THE SAME AIR GAP AS FACTORY 0.5 BOTH ENDS! ALL THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE CHEAP BUT FUCK IT I'M TAKING A GAMBLE! I HAVE CURRENTLY ONLY ONE PIC OF THE IRON LAMINATIONS TAKEN FROM THE STANDARD 4 POLE GEN ALL THIS WILL BE READY AROUND END OF JAN SO WILL NOT POST ANYTHING TILL I'M DONE ALL THE BEST GUYS FOR THE FESTIVE SEASON AND GOOD LUCK!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 14, 2014, 01:40:53 PM
HEY GUYS I RECENTLY PURCHASED TWO ST 4 POLE AC SYNC GENERATORS EXACTLY
AS SYAIR SHOWED IN HIS LAST VIDEO ONE GEN WILL BE THE PERMANENT MAGNET 220 RPM ALREADY ORDERED MAGNETS AND STATOR IS GETTING REWOUND AS SYAIR STATED! AND FOR THE OTHER GEN I'M PUTTING TOGETHER THE 1500 RPM HAVING IRON LAMINATIONS CUT TO SIZE AS WE SPEAK AND ALSO MY MACHINIST HAS STARTED THE WORK FOR MACHINING OF END PLATES ETC IT WILL BE THE SAME AIR GAP AS FACTORY 0.5 BOTH ENDS! ALL THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE CHEAP BUT FUCK IT I'M TAKING A GAMBLE! I HAVE CURRENTLY ONLY ONE PIC OF THE IRON LAMINATIONS TAKEN FROM THE STANDARD 4 POLE GEN ALL THIS WILL BE READY AROUND END OF JAN SO WNOT POST ANYTHING TILL I'M DONE ALL THE BEST GUYS FOR THE FESTIVE SEASON AND GOOD LUCK!


That's fantastic mate! Well done.


Let me know if I can help.
Ps may want to take off the caps lock. :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 14, 2014, 01:42:15 PM
Here's my latest video http://youtu.be/TuuOA2Vh9CI (http://youtu.be/TuuOA2Vh9CI)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: FatBird on December 14, 2014, 04:08:23 PM
Super nice & very professional.
Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: stivep on December 14, 2014, 05:06:56 PM
To Arunas T1000:



 As of yesterday I know, but I did not check the trick.
 So fricken  easy.
I check it out and let you guys know.
There is enough  of BS,  confusing most of us, and I do not want to  add more of it on the top of the old one.




"" text modified"""




Wesley










Ps:
for security reason I say that
Quote
"I was told  that
("" text modified""") was building and experimenting  with - satellite  powering system based on it.
I do not know the identity  of that person  "


 "They(""" text modified""")  test  it.
"They" test with their money our ideas
Can you believe it?



Surprisingly it lids to me  and  you my friend Arunas  - the  Lithuania Experiment



It touches and is connected by  presence of that yoke with
 Akula,
 SR,
Daly,
Ruslan
possibly  but not  for sure Tariel Kapanadze. 








Everything is    ( "" text modified""" )                       connected and is the most close to 
Transformer by Alexander Kugushov  and my experiment with Colman effect
(taken or  thought - as  together )

But no one from experimenters listed here knows what is really going on.
Yes they got  results  and they  do not understand it. That  is why Akula called Tiger for help.
And that is  why even Tiger can not repeat it.








We are cruising around the same phenomena - even this  plot with magnets is included in it
( but no  moving parts- just static arrangement)
 ( "" text modified""" )
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 14, 2014, 11:29:36 PM
The https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5KcU2n8qnw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5KcU2n8qnw) - nice try Ufopolitics :)

Just the spinning iron is still on constant magnets source in that video effectively making permanent magnets in spinning iron blades and this is still a cause of the problem when coils are shorted.
If you can make them change source magnet twice when it is passing coil as it spins then the interesting thing will be there with effect we all are after...

Cheers!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 15, 2014, 12:57:40 PM
This is the effect I find fascinating and what has me intrigued with this generator. Mucking about with the neutral zone. http://youtu.be/4OSXbG2BmUw (http://youtu.be/4OSXbG2BmUw) hopefully someone finds it helpful. It's also what t is talking about in his solid stae version if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 16, 2014, 08:08:50 AM
Just testing the new rig. Lots of work to do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhc0aF1TuGA
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 16, 2014, 04:41:47 PM
Timman, I am surprised at reading this from you, you seem to be all over the map.  You can't take Lenz drag and convert it into Tinman's push!  It doesn't work like that.  Any time you state something radical like that you would have to back it up with some hard experimental evidence.  The "speed of a magnetic field" is the speed of light.

The slow speed of the collapse of a magnetic field around a coil when discharging through a low resistance load has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of a magnetic field's propagation into 3D space, which is the speed of light.

I am really surprised that you wrote the above.  The orientation remains the same, and it has nothing to do with the voltage at all.  It is the direction of current that determines the orientation of the magnetic field.  It's like you are rolling back the clock five years here.  You have to know this stuff by now.

MileHigh
Why cant i convert the lenz force into TinMan's push :o. The lenz force can be a push or a pull on both a fixed or rotating magnetic field. First you have to look at what causes the lenz force to occur,which we know in the case of both transformers and generators to be a magnetic field that apposes that which created it. For this to happen,there has to be a current flowing through an inductor.So how do you delay that force?,well you simply delay the current flow through the inductor. We have seen this many times here in way of the voltage and current phase shift. We all know that in order to obtain a voltage across an inductor a varying magnetic field must be passed through that inductor. This is also true to obtain a current flow through that inductor. So what is happening when the current is lagging the voltage by 90* for example ? It is current flow through an inductor that creates the magnetic field-not voltage,and yet a magnetic field cutting through the inductor creates both voltage and current. If the current is delayed,then so is the lenz force.

I am well aware that the slow speed of the collapsing magnetic field has nothing to do with the propagation speed of the magnetic field. My point there was(think) speed up under load ;). Now what would happen to the rotor of a pulse motor if the magnetic field from the inductor was to remain longer ?-->yes,thats right,more push or pull on the rotors magnets for a longer period of time-->speed up under load :)

Now-the last quote of yours above.
This was a question i was asking TJ(and anyone else into pulsed inductor systems),it wasnt a question i was asking for my self. I am well aware that the magnetic field remains the same when the field is collapsing around the inductor when the inductors power supply is abruptly interupted. So no-no time travel there MH.

I must ask MH,do you believe that the delay of the lenz force is from extensive reserch you your self have done,or is it just because of what others tell you,or you have read in book's?. If the lenz force is created from current flowing through a generator coil(we are using a PM generator here as an example),and we can offset that current to the voltage across that generator coil,why then is the lenz force also not offset?.If the current is offset to the voltage,then so to is the lenz force offset to the voltage.

I would be more than happy to throw together a simple generator and show you lenz delay.First we could look at the power draw of the prime mover when loading the generator coil itself,and then we could look at the power draw of the prime mover with the lenz delay circuit in place.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 16, 2014, 11:46:12 PM
Take an induced voltage across a conductor,  route that to a resonant tank.  At resonance the phase shifts incrementally by 180 degrees but the absolute phase is limited between +90 degrees and -90 degrees.  In other words, in the best possible case for a sinusoidal source, the current becomes completely reactive and the net effect is almost no added drag.

Or you could try things a different way:  You could take the induced current, store that energy and then use that energy to replenish the original source or drive some "helper".  Again the best case is that the effective drag goes nearly to but never quite to zero.

The least "Lenz" drag occurs when there is no Faraday induction at all.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 16, 2014, 11:52:14 PM
The least "Lenz" drag occurs when there is no Faraday induction at all.
Just a side note:
This drag is the design issue. Using single magnet polarity against coil which is flipping polarities as magnetic field moves is the cause. There is solution which was shown already by few people here.
The Lenz force is resulting from induced magnetic field in coils and has to be in place for all generators...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 17, 2014, 01:43:09 AM
Hi everyone,

I started a new topic with a video demo to discuss the delay effect, Lenz and so on.
This should help free this topic for those who wish to stay with the original topic.

Link to new topic: http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg427925/#msg427925

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 17, 2014, 12:24:15 PM
Just lit an incandescent globe, dimly and no slow down lenz drag nor additional current consumption.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 17, 2014, 12:40:36 PM
Just lit an incandescent globe, dimly and no slow down lenz drag nor additional current consumption.

You got Lenz drag but I'm assuming you can't hear it or see it with the sensitivity of your meters.   I am going to assume that your setup draws several watts of power from your power supply but only outputs a fraction of that into the incandescent globe.  It doesn't matter, the Lenz drag s still there.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 17, 2014, 12:57:54 PM
I need some advice about pick up coils. I'll upload the vid soon but I'm thinking 20 or 18 awg. What sort of length do you think? The  coil you will see soon is 3.50hm I'm thinking of one coil for each mag junction. I think teardrop shape but bent over the mags. So sort of like a mini wind turbine but the coils are bent 90deg at the end. I need one single steel I think made from steel shot. I'm thinking of getting a design done and printing a mold.


I'd appreciate any advice in this area. Even if you believe I'm delusional, I'd appreciate any help.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 17, 2014, 01:06:19 PM
The big "secret" (in other words, few people realize or understand what I am about to say) is that it doesn't matter.   When you talk about coils the commonly accepted term to use is the number of turns, not the length of the wire.

So to answer your question with the "secret," it does not matter if your pick-up coils are 10 turns, 25 turns, or 100 turns.  If they all have approximately the same geometry, then all three versions have the same potential to output electrical power.   However, for the same output power, a coil will fewer turns will require a low value of load resistor vs. a coil with a larger number of turns which will require a higher value of load resistor.  If both coils are outputting the same amount of power, then the Lenz drag will be the same.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 18, 2014, 05:52:18 AM
This looks very much like syairchairun device?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RauMRITF-uk&t=1m2s
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dog-One on December 18, 2014, 06:18:45 AM
This looks very much like syairchairun device?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RauMRITF-uk&t=1m2s

I'd say so Luc.  Bet the guts have been modified exactly the same as the Syair RamaGen being discussed here.

That's okay, while the squabble is going on, think I'll build one to heat my garage with;  all while being told it is a hoax and can't possibly work.   ;)

If prisoners in Indonesia can do it, I should be able to also.

BTW, dragon over at Energetic Forum is having some success with his replication.
http://www.energeticforum.com/268465-post178.html
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 18, 2014, 12:41:54 PM
I'll be measuring on a scope next but here is the latest vid. http://youtu.be/PA3ZOk3kDFk (http://youtu.be/PA3ZOk3kDFk), I can optimise the motor to run more lean with a more suitable drive coil, and I've been testing different coil setups based on some the feedback here and elsewhere, so thanks. I'm trying to work out what drives up the watts in this setup. I think the main variables would be
Rotor - do more poles mean more output? I think so if they are magnetically disconnected from each other.
I just like using what I have ATM as it nice and balanced.


Coil setup- I can't really compare to syairs setup but I'm getting all the action perpendicular to the rotor. So with a more open rotor system, that I could place coils either side of evenly spaced, could I double my output?


Core material - I really want to try paul babcocks steel shot idea. I've seen fire pinto use it too. He says it. Switches mag flux quicker than silicon steel. Anyone tried that? I,d actually want to work out how to better direct the pick up with it. The more you load behind a coil the more your voltage pick increases. I Think I want mushroom shaped cores.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 18, 2014, 01:48:38 PM
Part 1 of 2:

I am well aware that the slow speed of the collapsing magnetic field has nothing to do with the propagation speed of the magnetic field. My point there was(think) speed up under load ;) . Now what would happen to the rotor of a pulse motor if the magnetic field from the inductor was to remain longer ?-->yes,thats right,more push or pull on the rotors magnets for a longer period of time-->speed up under load :)

Now-the last quote of yours above.
This was a question i was asking TJ(and anyone else into pulsed inductor systems),it wasnt a question i was asking for my self. I am well aware that the magnetic field remains the same when the field is collapsing around the inductor when the inductors power supply is abruptly interupted. So no-no time travel there MH.

I must ask MH,do you believe that the delay of the lenz force is from extensive reserch you your self have done,or is it just because of what others tell you,or you have read in book's?. If the lenz force is created from current flowing through a generator coil(we are using a PM generator here as an example),and we can offset that current to the voltage across that generator coil,why then is the lenz force also not offset?.If the current is offset to the voltage,then so to is the lenz force offset to the voltage.

I would be more than happy to throw together a simple generator and show you lenz delay.First we could look at the power draw of the prime mover when loading the generator coil itself,and then we could look at the power draw of the prime mover with the lenz delay circuit in place.

Tinman, there is some ranting in this posting.   It's specifically directed at you, it's simply a generic rant about the usual issues around being a newbie playing with electronics.

I assume that you read the full new thread about the alleged "delayed Lenz effect" set up by Gotoluc.

There is no such thing as "speed up under load."  That has been covered many times already.

Quote
Now what would happen to the rotor of a pulse motor if the magnetic field from the inductor was to remain longer ?-->yes,thats right,more push or pull on the rotors magnets for a longer period of time-->speed up under load

If you have an inductor in place of the load resistor, the current waveform will change but big deal.  It will not cause "speed up under load."  You are just talking now with wishful thinking.  If you want to be serious you would have to do a setup and with your scope and create a timing diagram for what is happening including indicating when there is push or pull on the rotor on the timing diagram.  That is what electronics is all about - looking at timing diagrams and analysing and understanding them.  Without doing that your comments are all "just talk."

Quote
This was a question i was asking TJ(and anyone else into pulsed inductor systems),it wasnt a question i was asking for my self. I am well aware that the magnetic field remains the same when the field is collapsing around the inductor when the inductors power supply is abruptly interupted. So no-no time travel there MH.

Then why didn't you just state it?  I don't believe in "alternative" political correctness just like I don't believe in "standard" political correctness.  When it comes to electronics the truth is there right in front of your nose.

Quote
I must ask MH,do you believe that the delay of the lenz force is from extensive reserch you your self have done,or is it just because of what others tell you,or you have read in book's?. If the lenz force is created from current flowing through a generator coil(we are using a PM generator here as an example),and we can offset that current to the voltage across that generator coil,why then is the lenz force also not offset?.If the current is offset to the voltage,then so to is the lenz force offset to the voltage.

I am just going to repeat again that the real answer for someone that needs to investigate this for themselves is to construct a timing diagram and then analyse and understand it.   Two hours of work on the bench will be worth more than two years and thousands of incorrect posts and hundreds of incorrect replications of the "delayed Lenz effect."

Continued in part 2...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 18, 2014, 01:49:52 PM
Part 2 of 2:

Quote
If the lenz force is created from current flowing through a generator coil(we are using a PM generator here as an example),and we can offset that current to the voltage across that generator coil,why then is the lenz force also not offset?.

You can take your "just words" and go on a bench and do an experiment where you do the full timing and analysis of that timing diagram and then come back and look at your words to see if they are "just words" or if they are valid and have substance.  Right now as far as I am concerned you are just repeating a "popular belief" that has infested the free energy forums for way too long.  I don't accept this and instead of blindly believing something the better thing to do is roll up your shirtsleeves and see if all of this "delayed Lenz" talk has any merit or if it is complete BS.

Did you see on Luc's new thread how the explanation for what was taking place was derived from looking at the actual data that he got from doing some experiments?

Quote
I must ask MH,do you believe that the delay of the lenz force is from extensive reserch you your self have done,or is it just because of what others tell you,or you have read in book's?

Tinman, the problem is not that I don't do experiments, the problem is that you guys either don't do experiments or you do experiments but you don't have the knowledge or experience to correctly understand what you are looking at.  Somebody makes a totally wrong conclusion and everybody believes them and agrees with them.  Part of the problem is that many of you are afraid to disagree with each other.  The other problem is that a newbie on a bench should be making timing diagrams for their circuits and then actually undertaking to understand what is going on.  How often do you see someone construct a timing diagram?

Quote
I would be more than happy to throw together a simple generator and show you lenz delay.First we could look at the power draw of the prime mover when loading the generator coil itself,and then we could look at the power draw of the prime mover with the lenz delay circuit in place.

I can envision this:  You do a pulse motor/generator and confirm the "delayed Lenz effect" and make your power measurements, etc.  But the job will not be done.  Go the next step and construct a timing diagram and understand the timing diagram.  That's the real deal and almost nobody ever does it.

It's simply ridiculous to say, "this is the delayed Lenz effect."  Do you understand where I am coming from?  The term "delayed Lenz effect" does not even exist in the real world of electronics and motors.

I have no doubt that you could show me the "delayed Lenz effect" but the real issue is what are you really looking at?  The challenge for you after you do your tests is to put together one or two paragraphs of text that describe what you are observing in the real language of electronics and not this fake imaginary language like "delayed Lenz effect."  There is an explanation for what you might be observing and it is guaranteed to be 100% conventional and 100% explainable using 100% standard electronics terms.

And there are no special or "magical" benefits to the "delayed Lanz effect."   It's all just REAL, and the challenge for every experimenter in alternative energy is to master the basics of electronics if you want to play with electronics.  You think that you can do something that is "amazing" and "out of the ordinary?"  If so, prove to yourself that you really and truly know what you are doing first.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 18, 2014, 06:02:02 PM
Delay in coil current is Lenz delay because the coil current is Lenz.

To delay the coil current offers no advantage, if delayed over 90 degrees the current is simply never produced and no work can be gained.
The entire process of phase shift or resonance to gain energy is simply not true and is fully understood.

There may be a way to remove most of the undesired lenz effect but lenz in the coil is required and is a result of work being done by current flow.
It's just not necessary for lenz to work against the rotor of a generator.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 18, 2014, 11:28:14 PM
I've been thinking of this effect for a while and what keeps coming back to me is, it seems to be quite the same effect as JLN has noticed when testing Thane Heins ReGen-X coils and found he could produce the same effect just by having more core material between the coil and magnet (as picture)

Could this not be the same effect?... since syairchairun design does adds more distance and core material between coil and magnet?

Just thinking here ::)


JLN video demo of the effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUoyuiQTrRA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUoyuiQTrRA)

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 19, 2014, 03:05:34 AM
gotoluc,
I think what is shown in the video is misleading.
When the shorted coil is close it causes additional drag from Lenz.
When the shorted coil is moved away just right, then the Lenz causes a neutral field in the iron bar and consumes the least energy.
When the shorted coil is moved further out the iron bar consumes more energy because of induction heating and hysteresis in the iron bar.
 
Lenz is simply the field produced by the current in the coil. The same as if you connected a battery to a coil.
Battery current to coil = magnetic field,       magnetic field to coil = current.    It's the same thing!
 
Now for the way around Lenz!
When the magnetic field loops from a permanent magnet contact an iron core of a coil some domains align with the field making the iron a magnet. Now more magnetic loops are attracted and more domains flip making the iron a stronger magnet which attracts even more magnetic loops.
 
Stick with me because I will tell you the only way to defeat Lenz.
 
Now, If the iron was wrapped with a copper coil and shorted as a load, then the loops that pass through the coil and enter the iron also induce a current in the coil.
The iron only serves to help keep the loops inside the coil because if they move outside the coil then for every loop that leaves you need another moving inside just to stay even.
The current produced is in the direction to produce a magnetic field opposite the incoming magnetic loop direction so it prevents more loops from entering the iron. This is Lenz!
To make more current you need to force the loops into the coil and this requires more work.
 
To get around the Lenz problem,  you put the magnet and the core inside the coil and use iron to pull the loops outside the coil.
With this reverse Lenz effect as the iron attracts the loops outside the coil they must pass through the coil inducing a current that instead attempts to retain the magnetic loops inside the coil. Whatever is held inside the coil causes less attraction to the rotor that's trying to pull the loops out.
 
If this was designed well, you should be able to pull as many loops out through the coil as you could push into a coil in a typical generator. The difference would be that additional load would not need additional work from the Lenz effect because you have reversed the direction of Lenz by inverting the magnetic field in the coil to the rotor direction.
 
 

 
 

 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 19, 2014, 03:31:02 AM
Thanks lumen for posting both your opinions and understanding.

Maybe the Lenz delay will slip by you know who ;)

Thanks for sharing

Luc
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 19, 2014, 03:36:30 AM
Luc:

I looked at the JLN clip and I am not impressed.  You have probably heard that water is an excellent analogy for electricity.  The water pressure is the voltage.  The water flow is the current.  A water resistor is just a long thin hose, there is friction between the moving water and the walls of the hose.  A water capacitor is just a big tank of water.  A water coil is just a big coil of hose.

Please see the attached graphic of a simple water wheel.  That's a perfect analogy to a simple pulse motor.  The water flows out, hits the fins of the wheel, the wheel spins at a certain RPM and all the water ends up on the ground.  Just like a pulse motor, there is no useful output from the water wheel.  Both the pulse motor and the water wheel only have one output, heat.

Now, if you make slight adjustments to the water valve the speed of the wheel will change.  If you make slight changes to the angles of the fins on the water wheel the speed of the wheel will change.

Compare that to JLN's experiment.  He makes some adjustments to his setup, and the current consumption will undergo a slight change, or the RPM of the rotor will undergo a slight change.

In both cases, the changes will make slight changes to the power draw, it might go up a bit, it might go down a bit.  Another way to state that is that the impedance of the water wheel will change slightly, and that will affect the power draw.  Likewise, the impedance of the pulse motor will change slightly, and that will affect the power draw.

So what's so remarkable about that?  You know when people make a circuit to power a CFL or a LED lamp, sometimes they put a big current limiting resistor at the battery positive terminal.  If you change the value of that current limiting resistor slightly, then the brightness of your light will change slightly.  Would you say that changing the value of the current limiting resistor is an "advantage?"  Well that essentially is all that you are seeing in that clip.  He is changing the electrical impedance of the pulse motor.  Sometimes the impedance goes up, sometimes it goes down.  BFD.

In this context the shorting or unshorting of the coil is essentially irrelevant.  It just changes the motor impedance and slightly affects how much waste heat is produced by the motor.

That's what's really happening in that clip.  It's like turning the volume up or down on your stereo and claiming an "advantage."

Quoting JLN:

Quote
Harnessing the Delayed Lenz Effect with an experimental Test Bench

He is not harnessing anything.  He is just changing the impedance of the motor.

Quote
Here an interesting experiment about the Delayed Lenz Effect which shows that the normal Lenz effect can be reversed with a special setup.

That's a retarded statement.  Nothing is being reversed, he is just making impedance changes to the setup.

I have said several times before that I am not impressed with JLN, and that clip only serves to reinforce my impression of him.  He is looking at that setup and does not seem to be aware that it has no significance.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 19, 2014, 05:34:59 AM
To get around the Lenz problem,  you put the magnet and the core inside the coil and use iron to pull the loops outside the coil.
With this reverse Lenz effect as the iron attracts the loops outside the coil they must pass through the coil inducing a current that instead attempts to retain the magnetic loops inside the coil. Whatever is held inside the coil causes less attraction to the rotor that's trying to pull the loops out.
 
If this was designed well, you should be able to pull as many loops out through the coil as you could push into a coil in a typical generator. The difference would be that additional load would not need additional work from the Lenz effect because you have reversed the direction of Lenz by inverting the magnetic field in the coil to the rotor direction.

Hi Lumen,

you're making me think and interestingly I stumbled upon this video today and was wondering if this would qualify as a Lenz work around design?

I chopped the original video to get to the final design.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/4385356 (http://www.tubechop.com/watch/4385356)

Please let me know what you think

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 19, 2014, 06:03:12 AM
Hi Lumen,

you're making me think and interestingly I stumbled upon this video today and was wondering if this would qualify as a Lenz work around design?

I chopped the original video to get to the final design.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/4385356 (http://www.tubechop.com/watch/4385356)

Please let me know what you think

Luc

Luc
I think it can be done much easier. I'll post a drawing of my new test device after I measure the coil and draw it up. It's much less complicated.
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 19, 2014, 06:09:31 AM
Great lumen!

Looking forward to see the design you have come up with.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 19, 2014, 01:12:08 PM

Luc
I think it can be done much easier. I'll post a drawing of my new test device after I measure the coil and draw it up. It's much less complicated.
Hi lumen please post when you can. I'm looking forward to seeing it. I think you right that the lenz is certainly present, but the rotor material in this design will not see as it flips to become part of it. Anyway just a gut feel,
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 19, 2014, 07:18:47 PM
This arrangement should prevent Lenz in the coil from affecting the rotor if that is possible.
The key factors are:
1: No movement between coil and magnet.
2: The field propagates outward as the rotor approaches the core and propagates into the core as the rotor moves away.
The idea is that Lenz will work to contain the field within the core as the magnet tries to push it outward into the rotor.
With Lenz working against the magnet not against the rotor.
When the rotor is moving away, Lenz will push back against the collapsing field and prevent pulling back on the rotor.
The total pull back on the rotor to the core can only be the same as the pull into the core as the field would be the same magnitude minus some losses from other events.
 
This is only a concept until proven to work anything like described.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 19, 2014, 07:59:57 PM
Very interesting and simpler design lumen ;)

Thank you for sharing.

Just a few questions, why does the coil have bump?
also, is the rotor open at the bottom?... U shape?

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 19, 2014, 10:11:26 PM
Luc,
The coil is from a solenoid and the bump is where the wires are connected.
It's not a good position but should be ok.
I left the rotor open or "C" shape because the wires need to connect in a simple manner for now.
A closed rotor would be more effective and there are many ways to achieve this concept but I need to test the entire concept to see if this line of thinking goes anywhere.
Also, the polarity of the magnet is with the poles facing into the two core sections. One core N the other core S.
This causes the rotor to flip the field direction through the coil for AC output. 1800RPM for 60HZ
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Just..Sayin.. on December 20, 2014, 12:37:03 AM
This arrangement should prevent Lenz in the coil from affecting the rotor if that is possible.
The key factors are:
1: No movement between coil and magnet.
2: The field propagates outward as the rotor approaches the core and propagates into the core as the rotor moves away.
The idea is that Lenz will work to contain the field within the core as the magnet tries to push it outward into the rotor.
With Lenz working against the magnet not against the rotor.
When the rotor is moving away, Lenz will push back against the collapsing field and prevent pulling back on the rotor.
The total pull back on the rotor to the core can only be the same as the pull into the core as the field would be the same magnitude minus some losses from other events.
 
This is only a concept until proven to work anything like described.

Lumen, I hope you have something with your design, however, I can offer from my own experiments many years ago where I placed coils on the permanent magnets themselves, and spun iron segments past them, the back emf was still there and showed up on the input to the rotor. I also experimented with permanent magnets wound with output coils on both the rotor and on the stator. I was very confident at the time that the back emf in the stator coils would be cancelled by the back emf in the rotor coils,  but it was not. Very efficient induction but no cigar. It was a novel induction method without any core hysteresis. Magnets will switch polarities without heating up when employing them for both the rotor and the stator. They can also be employed to efficiently achieve induction at very high frequencies. Just picture permanent magnets wound with induction coils as the stator, and permanent magnets wound with induction coils, employed as the rotor segments. No iron at all in the generator.

I do believe what they have been doing in Indonesia does work... I have my doubts if there is a better way than what Syair has shown

EDIT... As an after thought, perhaps stationary magnets with induction coils in the outer stator as well as magnets wound with induction coils on the inner core, with iron segments passing in between.....something to chew on for awhile....
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 20, 2014, 12:42:59 AM
Why don't you guys try to analyse how it works by making a timing diagram for the device.  You could also make drawings for the flux flow for each stage of the rotation.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 20, 2014, 12:45:50 AM
Why don't you guys try to analyse how it works by making a timing diagram for the device.  You could also make drawings for the flux flow for each stage of the rotation.

I believe there is a flux flow at the end of this video I shared yesterday.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/4385356 (http://www.tubechop.com/watch/4385356)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 20, 2014, 01:14:39 AM
I watched the full chunk of that clip and at the end I am not sure what is being shown but it does not look like flux flows to me.  For the stuff being stated in the clip itself, I get uncomfortable when I listen to what is being said.  I can't exactly follow what he is saying and I am not going to watch it 10 times to try to figure it out.  Nor am I going to watch the original series of clips.  I note that the YouTube clip is a few years old.

The issue is this:  I think it's fair to say that whatever he was saying, the idea was based on some kind of "workaround."  You know, "My generator with the rotor cylinder sliced at a certain angle prevents back-EMF, bla, bla, whatever.  It often sounds very noble and is serious sounding, but in the back of my mind the "engineer" in me is saying, "No matter what, flux has to cut a coil, or a coil has to cut some flux, and it takes mechanical energy to do that if you are going to drive a load."  It's just the way it is, it's always there, and everything we know right now says that's the way the world works.

It's like you can take any fancy generator design and rip it apart and distil it down to it's bare essence, and there is still a magnet moving past a coil.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 20, 2014, 01:33:54 AM
I believe there is a flux flow at the end of this video I shared yesterday.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/4385356 (http://www.tubechop.com/watch/4385356)

Are there any real builds on it?

Also the magnets<-->coils flux interaction always go over shortest straight paths and when doing design for the magnetic flux switching that has to be accounted...
And if there is bended flux path between coil and magnet that complicates design when avoiding to hit induced magnetic force 3D vector(the Lenz force which will cause drag when aligned) on same line by external force causing magnetic flux change.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 20, 2014, 02:11:17 AM
Lumen, I hope you have something with your design, however, I can offer from my own experiments many years ago where I placed coils on the permanent magnets themselves, and spun iron segments past them, the back emf was still there and showed up on the input to the rotor. I also experimented with permanent magnets wound with output coils on both the rotor and on the stator. I was very confident at the time that the back emf in the stator coils would be cancelled by the back emf in the rotor coils,  but it was not. Very efficient induction but no cigar. It was a novel induction method without any core hysteresis. Magnets will switch polarities without heating up when employing them for both the rotor and the stator. They can also be employed to efficiently achieve induction at very high frequencies. Just picture permanent magnets wound with induction coils as the stator, and permanent magnets wound with induction coils, employed as the rotor segments. No iron at all in the generator.

I do believe what they have been doing in Indonesia does work... I have my doubts if there is a better way than what Syair has shown

EDIT... As an after thought, perhaps stationary magnets with induction coils in the outer stator as well as magnets wound with induction coils on the inner core, with iron segments passing in between.....something to chew on for awhile....

I agree that it's possible this design may not be fully free of rotor drag from Lenz, but the idea is in the description and the device only hopes to achieve it.
Simply placing a magnet inside a coil is not the same as the shorted magnet in this design.
The idea is to contain the field inside the core and have it pulled out by the rotor where Lenz will try to hold it within the core reducing rotor drag.
 
With only a magnet inside a coil, the field is already outside the coil and the rotor drags the field back through the coil against Lenz so contains rotor drag.
Any time you try to force the field through a loaded coil, you will have Lenz pushing back. You need a design where only the magnets themselves are pushing the field through the coil and fighting Lenz.

 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 20, 2014, 02:13:29 AM
I watched the full chunk of that clip and at the end I am not sure what is being shown but it does not look like flux flows to me.  For the stuff being stated in the clip itself, I get uncomfortable when I listen to what is being said.  I can't exactly follow what he is saying and I am not going to watch it 10 times to try to figure it out.  Nor am I going to watch the original series of clips.  I note that the YouTube clip is a few years old.

The issue is this:  I think it's fair to say that whatever he was saying, the idea was based on some kind of "workaround."  You know, "My generator with the rotor cylinder sliced at a certain angle prevents back-EMF, bla, bla, whatever.  It often sounds very noble and is serious sounding, but in the back of my mind the "engineer" in me is saying, "No matter what, flux has to cut a coil, or a coil has to cut some flux, and it takes mechanical energy to do that if you are going to drive a load."  It's just the way it is, it's always there, and everything we know right now says that's the way the world works.

It's like you can take any fancy generator design and rip it apart and distil it down to it's bare essence, and there is still a magnet moving past a coil.

MileHigh

MileHigh,
Yes all that double talk is just too much to be anything but impressive sounding.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ekimtoor1 on December 20, 2014, 02:36:40 AM
Speaking of fancy generator designs:  http://magnomatics.com/HomePageVideo.aspx

This device seems similar in some ways to the ones being discussed, rotating iron and all...

Is it?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 20, 2014, 03:47:56 AM
Speaking of fancy generator designs:  http://magnomatics.com/HomePageVideo.aspx (http://magnomatics.com/HomePageVideo.aspx)

This device seems similar in some ways to the ones being discussed, rotating iron and all...

Is it?

Interesting design! Lots to think about there.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 20, 2014, 10:38:37 AM

MileHigh,
Yes all that double talk is just too much to be anything but impressive sounding.

I will assume that you are being sarcastic.  You have a physical 3D CAD model of your proposed design.  Is that were it stops?  Do you intend to physically build it?

I will just repeat what I stated previously because you have a small group of enthusiasts on this thread that shares your interests.  If you believe in your design then make a series of diagrams showing the flux flows at various stages of rotation of the rotor.  And more importantly make a timing diagram that also shows how it is actually supposed to work.  Motor/generators are designed on paper and analyzed on paper all the time.  I suppose that you are arguing that this design will generate changing flux so the coil can drive a load while at the same time there is no Lenz drag on the rotation of the rotor.  In other words, you believe that you have a "workaround" that somehow "cheats" how a standard generator works.  The way for you to start proving that to yourself and your peers is to make a comprehensive timing diagram that shows how it allegedly works.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 20, 2014, 10:52:35 AM
Also, I just want to mention that your rotor is kind of a "flux redirector" somewhat similar to the QEG.  We have all seen the QEG demos where when the QEG hits resonance you notice big changes in the sound before vs. after resonance.  After resonance you can hear a lot of new sounds emanating from the QEG itself and the electric drive motor.  The sounds that you hear are the electric drive motor and the QEG responding to the Lenz drag stresses due to the fact that the electric motor/QEG is now driving a light bulb load.

Generating a proper comprehensive timing diagram for your design is the key to understanding if it should work or not.  Since you have a physical 3D model, this is all doable.  Then if you actually build the thing you can check if your timing diagram corresponds to what you see on the bench when the device is under test.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 20, 2014, 05:48:00 PM
I will assume that you are being sarcastic.  You have a physical 3D CAD model of your proposed design.  Is that were it stops?  Do you intend to physically build it?

I will just repeat what I stated previously because you have a small group of enthusiasts on this thread that shares your interests.  If you believe in your design then make a series of diagrams showing the flux flows at various stages of rotation of the rotor.  And more importantly make a timing diagram that also shows how it is actually supposed to work.  Motor/generators are designed on paper and analyzed on paper all the time.  I suppose that you are arguing that this design will generate changing flux so the coil can drive a load while at the same time there is no Lenz drag on the rotation of the rotor.  In other words, you believe that you have a "workaround" that somehow "cheats" how a standard generator works.  The way for you to start proving that to yourself and your peers is to make a comprehensive timing diagram that shows how it allegedly works.

MileHigh

I was not being sarcastic, I was agreeing with you about the "tubechop" generator.
It seems the video is simply trying to baffle with bull ####.

As for my design, I believe the idea of working on the opposite side of Lenz is the basis for a working OU generator.
Whether this design or any design can achieve that is speculation and based on 200 years of people building generators, it would seem someone would have come up with the same idea. (maybe they have!)

It's a simple build and should only take a day after adding the frame and other missing components.
A simulation would be fairly easy and could possibly show some useful information on flux retention in the core before a build.
So I may do a simulation even if it wastes some build time.

We both know that Syair's generator could not function as shown with Lenz working against it. This leaves only two options.
1: It doesn't work as portrayed.
2: It doesn't work against Lenz as a typical generator.

Time will tell which is true.


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 20, 2014, 11:34:32 PM
Okay thanks for your comments and I look forward to seeing what transpires.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 21, 2014, 04:51:31 AM
The field simulations show some very strong flux and now I'm thinking possibly not to rotate the entire stator.
In the first pic you can see the stator shorting the field as it should to maintain the flux within the core.
The second and third show the stator at 10 and then 20 degrees. The flux is very high in the stator indicating what has moved through the coil at some point.
The last pic shows the stator at 90 degrees and you can see some flux and this could cause some Lenz to work against the stator as it rotates from this position, though is probably small.
 
I may try to find a way to keep the stator stationary and rotate a small segment at each end of the stator instead. This would eliminate any Lenz affecting the stator as it no longer would move around the coil.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 21, 2014, 06:21:14 AM
The field simulations show some very strong flux and now I'm thinking possibly not to rotate the entire stator.
In the first pic you can see the stator shorting the field as it should to maintain the flux within the core.
The second and third show the stator at 10 and then 20 degrees. The flux is very high in the stator indicating what has moved through the coil at some point.
The last pic shows the stator at 90 degrees and you can see some flux and this could cause some Lenz to work against the stator as it rotates from this position, though is probably small.
 
I may try to find a way to keep the stator stationary and rotate a small segment at each end of the stator instead. This would eliminate any Lenz affecting the stator as it no longer would move around the coil.

Thanks for this flux simulation study lumen

Just so you know, yesterday I ordered a large microwave oven transformer to take apart to use the core laminations to build and test your design idea.
It may arrive on Monday or Tuesday at the latest.
I have some N50 Neo's size 1' x 2" x 1/2" which I can also be cut to a smaller size if needed.
I was planing on using the E of the MOT core and cut out the center leg to make a C (rotor) and use parts of the I to sandwich between the Neo magnet.
I have 18 AWG wire to make the coil

Let me know if there is anything you would like to recommend

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 21, 2014, 06:56:39 AM
I did some simulations by rotating only small iron segments and the results are interesting.
The design is somewhat close to Syair's in operation but inverted. Makes you wonder doesn't it.
 
A and C would have near zero flux while B would be very high.
You can see in D that the flux starts to drop off fast from max in a very short rotation.
Lenz would appear to be virtually eliminated since the segments carry the flux for a short distance in an area where Lenz would have little impact on it.

 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 21, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
That's really helpful, thanks Lumen.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 21, 2014, 06:54:42 PM
To All:

Hopefully the attached graphic will be even more helpful.   The attached graphic is a distillation of the design down to its bare essence.

Moving the iron back and forth in the air gap with no load on the generator coil will be energy-neutral.  It will modulate the amount of flux that flows though the magnet and you will be able to measure an EMF output from the coil.  However, you can clearly see that there will be cogging. 

If you attach a load to the generator coil, then there will be Lenz drag.  It should be obvious to all of you why that is the case.

Like I said before, all of these attempts in search of a "magic workaround" can and should be analyzed on paper first.  There is no point in spending 20 hours building something if you can make a rational analysis of how it works on paper.

As far as the real design goes, you can see that it will also have a lot of cogging as the rotor rotates.  Even though cogging is in theory energy-neutral, we know that it puts stresses on the bearings and the overall build and ultimately causes friction.  Therefore, it will be really hard to distinguish the cogging from the Lenz drag for a typical experimenter.  That difficulty could result in somebody convinced that they have something when in fact they don't.  It could create a thread that lasts two years where people spin their wheels and get absolutely nowhere.

Now, to the regulars in this thread: Do you see and understand what I am saying between the attached diagram and my description above?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: vince on December 21, 2014, 08:17:40 PM
In the end it comes down to this.
We all jumped on the bandwagon when we saw the first video of the generator being looped. Some of us were excited and hopeful and some were just skeptical. Sayir made it seem like he was a honest person trying to show us that it could be done. It certainly seemed real enough. The seasoned members made every attempt to correct our paths and prove that it could not be done. Some of us wanted to believe that there was something to this and many experiments and opinions later we come to this.

Do we believe the initial video and commentary from Sayir or was it just another you tube hoax?

Sayir, if your still out there following this thread please chime in and give us some feedback!!!

Vince
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 21, 2014, 08:36:52 PM
To All:

Hopefully the attached graphic will be even more helpful.   The attached graphic is a distillation of the design down to its bare essence.

Moving the iron back and forth in the air gap with no load on the generator coil will be energy-neutral.  It will modulate the amount of flux that flows though the magnet and you will be able to measure an EMF output from the coil.  However, you can clearly see that there will be cogging. 

If you attach a load to the generator coil, then there will be Lenz drag.  It should be obvious to all of you why that is the case.

Like I said before, all of these attempts in search of a "magic workaround" can and should be analyzed on paper first.  There is no point in spending 20 hours building something if you can make a rational analysis of how it works on paper.

As far as the real design goes, you can see that it will also have a lot of cogging as the rotor rotates.  Even though cogging is in theory energy-neutral, we know that it puts stresses on the bearings and the overall build and ultimately causes friction.  Therefore, it will be really hard to distinguish the cogging from the Lenz drag for a typical experimenter.  That difficulty could result in somebody convinced that they have something when in fact they don't.  It could create a thread that lasts two years where people spin their wheels and get absolutely nowhere.

Now, to the regulars in this thread: Do you see and understand what I am saying between the attached diagram and my description above?

MileHigh

In the diagram you show it is certain that Lenz will affect the iron if the coil is under load.
The reason is that the iron segment is directly used to increase the flux through the coil and so the flux will directly affect the iron also.
If you can understand that in your case the flux is outside the coil and the iron is used to move the flux through the coil in a conventional manner.
 
There may not be a "magic workaround" but if the flux is only inside of a coil and iron can be used to pull it out, then this is an inversion and the Lenz forces and will instead work against the expansion. That could only mean less attraction on the distracting iron.
 
Like I said, it's a theory that would work, but it may be impossible to construct a device to achieve it.
I am building a test device that I believe can achieve that goal but I also believe that there has been much more research put into generator technology than most would understand so at some point someone must have found the problem with this concept.
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 21, 2014, 09:20:08 PM
MH:
Your drawing has Lenz force on same vector as closing of magnetic flux. In result the coil making temporary magnet will increase/decrease total magnetic strength in core along with magnets and of course there will be drag created.
The design in first post has it indirect between force moving iron and force resulting from induction on 90 degrees angle and is different than in this drawing. This is fundamental difference.

The simple advice - instead of posting tons of pages in forum just make simple assembly where magnet and coil is on same line as in my or Syrain's CAD drawing separated by air gap and attach rotor with iron cores coming and leaving from the sides on 90 degrees to that. Then you can tell everyone what effects do you see there...

"The seeing is believing" :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 21, 2014, 10:29:56 PM
Lumen:

Quote
but if the flux is only inside of a coil and iron can be used to pull it out, then this is an inversion and the Lenz forces

There is no "inversion," that is the problem where you are not "seeing."  The only thing that counts is changing magnetic flux that goes through the coil.  The iron is not "pulling it out."  When the iron rotor lines up with the stator then that allows more flux to flow through the newly created path for the flux.  That is the only thing that is happening.  You are not doing anything in "some other way."  There is no "new technique" being experimented with here.  You just have to look at what is happening at take it at face value.  The flux of the magnet will flow based on the external environment for the magnet.  It does this "without thinking," for lack of a better term.  Your setup does nothing more than change the external environment for the magnet, and the flux from the magnet responds in turn.  Your rotor will need an injection of external mechanical power if the coil starts driving a load.

Please try to visualize this, that's all that I can ask of you.

T-1000:

The same comments above apply to you about the "90 degrees" stuff.  If your changing magnetic field is precisely at 90 degrees to a very precisely wound coil that is very uniform, then the output from the coil will be zero.   In reality, it's impossible for an amateur experimenter to make a setup where this happens.  A small amount of flux will still pass through the generator coil.  That will create a small output from the coil.

Quote
it indirect between force moving iron and force resulting from induction on 90 degrees angle and is different than in this drawing. This is fundamental difference.

Like I said above, there is no difference.  If you have some kind of a design that you think uses a "90 degree" technique, and you are getting output from the generator, then changing flux is passing through your generator coil.  This is Nature, and it's real.  If you have a build the challenge for you is to have a new look at it and make a serious investigation to find out how changing magnetic flux passes through your generator coil, even if you made your build with the intention that all of the flux would be at 90 degrees to the generator coil.  Like I say above, it's basically impossible for you to make a build where the 0% of the flux passes through your coil.  All of the magnetic field lines are curved and there is just no way you can accomplish 100% of the flux flowing at 90 degrees to your generator coil.  Also, if you actually could have 100% of the flux at 90 degrees to your generator coil, then the output from your generator coil would be zero.

So, if you have a build where you think that all of the flux is at 90 degrees, and you are getting an output from the generator coil, then you are wrong.  Some changing flux is going trough your coil.  These are the fundamentals of how your device acts.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: prochiro on December 22, 2014, 01:59:30 AM
Lumen:

T-1000 is correct in that you should build in this case. MileHigh seems stuck on one way and one way only. What he didn't seem to notice is that when we first saw the video where it was stated that there was cogging noted from this design, while turning by hand back and forth and starting, there was a sudden lack of it once it was started. You can draw all the cad drawings you want in a static format and all will show that flux is working against you. Go back to the original design, like UFO drew, make something like that where iron is moving only. Many here are off track and letting MileHigh get get you all tied up in diversion. There are several other builds that show that in a dynamic state, this design works. MileHigh will tell you that magnets work at the speed of light and they almost do. There is something more to dynamics and movement here you need to see. If you do not build first, you will never know and he who is trying to keep you in the static world wins.

Prochiro
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 22, 2014, 02:05:52 AM
MileHigh:
To me Lenz always resists the change in flux in a coil under load. If all the flux in a magnet were contained inside a coil under load, then you released the flux and allowed it to expand through the coil, do you think that Lenz would not resist the change just because it came from inside the coil?
Of course it would resist the change, but it would only be fighting the magnet trying to propagate it's field.
Like I said, you might think it's the same thing only because it may not be possible to build a device that would perform the correct action.
Impossible as it might appear, the theory makes total sense.
It's not actually the change in flux intensity that generates current in a coil. It only appears to be related to the intensity in a coils core because that is a measure of the flux that had to cross the coils conductors and is now in the core.
Like I said, flux is a loop and to get into a coils core it must cut through the coils windings to enter the core and this generates the current in the coil.
That's why it just might be possible to put Lenz on the other side of the operation in a device that preforms flux switching.
Many have claimed it possible and the fact that there is no confirmed working device does not mean it's impossible.

Besides, I just found a huge local supply of surplus reclaimed silicon steel for projects like this.
It's .013" thick non-orientated from a 54 foot diameter generator.

 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: epwpixieq-1 on December 23, 2014, 06:36:32 PM
@MileHigh

Quote
You have probably heard that water is an excellent analogy for electricity.  The water pressure is the voltage.  The water flow is the current.  A water resistor is just a long thin hose, there is friction between the moving water and the walls of the hose.  A water capacitor is just a big tank of water.  A water coil is just a big coil of hose.
an abstract from your post here:
http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg428647/#msg428647 (http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg428647/#msg428647)

Quote
You are not in a position to comment on the technical capabilities of anybody.  Educate yourself, and that will change.
and from your post here:
http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg428664/#msg428664 (http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg428664/#msg428664)

As you seem to be very urgent to give "educated" advance to other people, it would be nice, if you advance in your education also.
There something called "Electrical Papers" (2 toms, about 1500 pages, freely available online in .pdf format) by a little known author ( I hope you may know it ) named Oliver Heaviside. And although not widely known, it could be said that 90% of our understanding of Maxwell is due to this self-thought physicist and mathematician. Actually the known Maxwell equations are really Maxwell-Heaviside equations as Heaviside is the one to enhance and translate most of the Maxwell's, at that time, poorly understood work (although that it was available for about 40 years already), in the currently widely accepted fundamental state known as "Classical Electrodynamics" developed in vector format.
If you go and read his "Electrical Papers", as I highly recommend, if only, for your educational purpose, you will be surprised to find out, that he devotes several pages in explaining how it is WRONG to associate one of the observable electrical phenomena named "flow of electricity in a conductor" with the flow of water. He is also quite notorious, notably arguing about stupidity, and he basically says, that this is one simplistic analogy "an uneducated person can make".
So to put this very simple, association of the electrical phenomena ON and through a conductor ( named "destructor" by Heaviside, see many things are not as they are thought to be) with a flow of water, is highly misleading, unless of course one starts to think that the electrical phenomena materializes mostly ("flows") outside of the water pipe than inside of it, which would be true analogy. But of course, this turns many thing upside down, although the order does not change, as all physical things will continue working as they do not caring much of our understanding about them, and one has to have quite a vivid imagination in order even to start consider this idea.

For your convenience here are links to the noted fundamental work that everyone should read, for it gives quite a different perspective and clear one's understanding over very fundamental concepts being wrongly settled/rooted and understood at the "educational" institutions and subsequently in the, supposedly, educated people, throughout the history and today:

https://archive.org/details/electricalpapers01heavuoft (https://archive.org/details/electricalpapers01heavuoft)
https://archive.org/details/electricalpapers02heavrich (https://archive.org/details/electricalpapers02heavrich)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: i_ron on December 23, 2014, 10:19:40 PM
Hi Lumen,

you're making me think and interestingly I stumbled upon this video today and was wondering if this would qualify as a Lenz work around design?

I chopped the original video to get to the final design.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/4385356 (http://www.tubechop.com/watch/4385356)

Please let me know what you think

Luc


I think this is Jim Murray's patent 4,780,632


Ron

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Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 23, 2014, 10:53:49 PM
Epwpix:

Your logic is flawed.  I stated that water is a good analogy for electricity.  If you search you will probably find thousands or tens of thousands of references stating that.  Yes, you will find a 19th century Oliver Heaviside reference where he says it's not the case.

So, how do you yourself analyze this situation?   You have thousands or tens of thousands of references that agree with me.  You have perhaps just a few that disagree with me.  What do you do in a case like this?

Water can model electricity perfectly when you look at the energy dynamics.  That is the context for this statement.  Beyond that, I don't have to look anywhere to make this statement.  I can use my education and intellect to clearly and unambiguously see that this is 100% true.

Now, I am fully aware that many people can't see or make the connection.  It's not so obvious, that's for sure.  It's just like stating that a mechanical flywheel is a perfect analogy for an inductor.  A puck on a skating ring is another perfect analogy for an inductor.  Nature and the physical world is telling us that "energy acts the same way in different systems."  It's actually quite beautiful.  Sometimes, when I an trying to understand how a circuit works I start thinking about the water analogy or the flywheel analogy.

If somebody is interested and wants to follow up so they can appreciate it for themselves, they are going to have to search or buy a related book, etc.

Heaviside may have been referring to some other aspect of electricity, I don't know.

Quote
So to put this very simple, association of the electrical phenomena ON and through a conductor ( named "destructor" by Heaviside, see many things are not as they are thought to be) with a flow of water, is highly misleading, unless of course one starts to think that the electrical phenomena materializes mostly ("flows") outside of the water pipe than inside of it, which would be true analogy.

So, it looks like you have a problem with the fact that a magnetic field will be outside of a wire, and the is nothing outside of a water pipe.  The interesting thing about that is it does not matter.  The analogy in terms of power and energy still works perfectly.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 24, 2014, 02:09:24 AM
Hi lumen,

please look at the pictures below of my simple build. The U core will turn on the upper surface (as in pic) instead of core ends. I think it should be good enough for a general validation.

I have a question before winding the coil. Do you think it would be a good idea to cut (red lines first pic) and remove that part of core so the coil is set into the core?
Also, do you think the width of the C core and overlap on each sides of the center cores is okay (last pic)?
Anything else you would like to recommend, please let me know.

Thanks for your help

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 24, 2014, 02:23:01 AM
water is not the analoge of electric current. string theory can explain why current or magnetic flux must be closed. you must have closed flux medium or at leased one loop of wire that current on it. (look for coupling coefficient) in order to coupling coeffficient to be high full cricle magnetic flux needed. this coupling in generators is highest or needed for amperes.
I've looked for the principle "there is a wall between them" what this topic is all about; it also works on static electricity generator too. but do not forget it; walls are made of bricks. one side of the wall is charged plates other side generating plates; looks the same ( ;) ) between same size plates but not connected to any ware besides isolators. ( the trick is equlise capacities of plates and wall in all contition, this is made by holes on wall plates; if the area is quarter size than capacitans also quartersize)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 24, 2014, 02:36:08 AM

I think this is Jim Murray's patent 4,780,632


Ron

Yes Ron, it's based on Jim Murray's patent. I think this guy was trying to make some improvements.

Are you going to test any of this?

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 24, 2014, 02:39:55 AM
water is not the analoge of electric current.

Water is an excellent analogy for electricity in terms of power and energy.  When you do the Google search "electricity water analogy" you get about 468,000 results.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Magluvin on December 24, 2014, 03:48:53 AM
If you search 'electricity air pressure analogy'  you get 21,000,000 results.   ;) ;D

Mags
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 24, 2014, 03:56:20 AM
If you search: "Nude women"  you get 5,000,000,000,010 results.  Probably  more in a few minutes, ha ha.

Bill
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 24, 2014, 04:14:06 AM
After you look at these images you have to forget them.  You also have to wipe all cache and other files on your computer hard drive by writing all zeros onto the dangerous disk clusters.  Failure to do this will result in a visit from the CPW.  That's "city public works" but you have to forget that I told you that.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 24, 2014, 07:36:22 AM
Luc,
Nice core!
I think you are getting ahead of me. It looks like things are fitting together well for you.
I think you could just wrap some thin fiberglass tape or some plastic around the core to wind the coil on so it doesn't cut the wires coating.
It would be nice to keep the gaps close as possible between the rotating C and the core sections. That's the point where the flux is contained in the core.

I ordered some silicon steel sheets that I will mill up into the second design but it looks like the holidays might slow me down somewhat.
 
You do know that this is all theory and is the only theory I can imagine that would allow the generator from Syair to operate as shown.
Is this like Jim Murray's patent?

 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 24, 2014, 08:11:02 AM
Thanks for the reply lumen

The cores are from a microwave transformer I cut open.

Yes, I do know this is all experimental and no guaranty of anything working :o

I was definitely going to wrap the core with heavy tape before winding. However, before I do, what do you think of the idea of cutting in a little so the coil sets in the core?... would that help direct PM flux towards the C core or would it do the opposite?

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: dieter on December 24, 2014, 09:20:47 AM
Would you mind if I join this discussion?


I think it doesn't make a big diffrence, probably reduces the flux as it is a further curve and as it reduces the cores diameter. Remember how big the inner core of a MOT is.


What saw did you use to cut it?


Peace

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 24, 2014, 10:24:44 AM
After you look at these images you have to forget them.  You also have to wipe all cache and other files on your computer hard drive by writing all zeros onto the dangerous disk clusters.  Failure to do this will result in a visit from the CPW.  That's "city public works" but you have to forget that I told you that.
At low frequencies fluid and mechanical analogies to electricity work very well.  At high frequencies the analogies can become problematic.

Beware the CPW men in black coveralls.  Those coveralls were once white.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 24, 2014, 04:16:25 PM
Luc,
This idea I'm going with is to keep the field looped inside of the coil and use the "C" section to pull the magnetic loop out through the coil.
The area you want to cut down is probably long enough where the field loop will still retain well in the iron and would likely not greatly impact the design idea.
I appears you already have your own plan in this "defeat Lenz project" and should go with what you want in your design.
Small changes like this could make it work better and to be sure you might model it in a field simulator but sometimes just building is more interesting.

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 24, 2014, 04:29:51 PM
Water is an excellent analogy for electricity in terms of power and energy.  When you do the Google search "electricity water analogy" you get about 468,000 results.

What makes magnet to have usable magnetic field for a life? Water is not comparable there...
Also when you start looking to magnet as power source in same way as Sun provides energy for solar panels, there are ways to convert magnetic field into electricity without external power source.

For doing that the same general principle applies like in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 24, 2014, 04:41:11 PM
What makes magnet to have usable magnetic field for a life? Water is not comparable there...
Also when you start looking to magnet as power source in same way as Sun provides energy for solar panels, there are ways to convert magnetic field into electricity without external power source.

For doing that the same general principle applies like in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs)

When you are discussing power and energy, you don't have to have a magnetic field present.  The water just needs to model the energy effects of the magnetic field.  Example:  Move a magnet past a coil to generate AC power.  For the water version, you make a water pump that is "AC" - it moves the water back and forth with an AC pressure.

The fact that solar panels turn sunlight into electricity can easily be modeled with water.  A water pump in a water circuit represents the solar panels.

A magnet is never a power source for anything.  The power source is what moves the magnet past the coil.

MileHigh

P.S.:  For doing that the same general principle applies like in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs)

That clip is a nonsense clip.  The guy does not have a perpetual motion machine.  I read a few times that reporters requested that they be permitted to see the entire machine and he always refuses.  He refuses because he knows that the reporters would find the power source for his machine.  The power source could be something as simple as a small electric motor.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 24, 2014, 04:52:54 PM
A magnet is never a power source for anything.  The power source is what moves the magnet past the coil.
The magnet and coil can be stationary for inducing current. As long the magnetic field gets weakened or strengthened in coil the Faraday law is followed. This can be done by changing magnetic flux resistance in core between magnet and coil or redirecting magnetic flux path to another magnet instead of coil. With proper design it is easy.
Then same magnet can energize coil then the induced electric current creates electromagnetic field which should be coupled between magnet and coil only and won't interfere with force changing magnetic flux path/resistance when proper geometry is applied in design.

Not sure if you get that but it is easy as soon experiments are done with designs mentioned in beginning of this thread and in http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43489#msg43489 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43489#msg43489)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 24, 2014, 04:56:57 PM
Quote
What makes magnet to have usable magnetic field for a life? Water is not comparable there...

This has nothing to do with power and energy.  I said that water is an excellent analogy for electricity when you are discussing the power and energy issues.

Why does a magnet have a magnetic field that lasts for life?  You should know the answer to this question already.  I am not sure what your native language is but I am sure that you will find all of the information in your native language on the Internet.

As a general statement, if you are on this website and you are an experimenter that is doing research into free energy using magnets and electronic circuits, then you should already understand how and why a magnet can produce a magnetic field for thousands or millions of years.  The reason for this has nothing to do with free energy and it is nothing special.

If you do not understand how a magnet works and why a magnet can produce a magnetic field then my strong advice is to spend one full day doing the research for yourself.  Then come back to the forum with a full understanding of how a magnet works.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 24, 2014, 05:05:20 PM
As a general statement, if you are on this website and you are an experimenter that is doing research into free energy using magnets and electronic circuits, then you should already understand how and why a magnet can produce a magnetic field for thousands or millions of years.  The reason for this has nothing to do with free energy and it is nothing special.
That is same mistake as it was when first conventional mechanical generator was ever created.
In fact I do not see single experiment of yours in this thread and the flooding of the forum with your posts are derailing topic. The unknowns in common knowledge was exposed in first Syrain's post and was ignored.. Typical.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 24, 2014, 05:16:56 PM
The magnet and coil can be stationary for inducing current. As long the magnetic field gets weakened or strengthened in coil the Faraday law is followed. This can be done by changing magnetic flux resistance in core between magnet and coil or redirecting magnetic flux path to another magnet instead of coil. With proper design it is easy.
Then same magnet can energize coil then the induced electric current creates electromagnetic field which should be coupled between magnet and coil only and won't interfere with force changing magnetic flux path/resistance when proper geometry is applied in design.

Not sure if you get that but it is easy as soon experiments are done with designs mentioned in beginning of this thread and in http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43489#msg43489 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg43489#msg43489)

Yes, but what you are saying is still nothing special, and the magnet is still not a power source.  An external power source has to move a piece of ferrite in the core to change the flux going through the coil.

You must understand:  I move a magnet with an external power source to make changing flux.  I move a ferrite core with an external power source to make changing flux.  It's essentially the same thing.  There is nothing special there.  This is an illusion that some of you are working on right now.

I move a magnet, or I move a ferrite core to make it look like I am moving a magnet - it's essentially the same thing.  If you open your mind and open your eyes you should see this.

Quote
Then same magnet can energize coil then the induced electric current creates electromagnetic field which should be coupled between magnet and coil only and won't interfere with force changing magnetic flux path/resistance when proper geometry is applied in design.

This is the fantasy part that some of you want to believe.  There is no "proper geometry" - no matter what if you want to output power from the coil, then you have to do mechanical work to output the power.

Go ahead an build something if you want.  I think that Lumen and Gotoluc are doing that right now.   You still will have to supply mechanical power if you want to output electrical power from the coil.

All that you have to do is carefully look at the design and find the basic function "hiding" inside of the design:  I have to supply mechanical work to get electrical work out from the coil.

If Lumen abd Gotoluc do good builds and make proper measurements and avoid leading themselves down a garden path, that is what they will find.

In many ways this is a "failure of the imagination."   You just have to look at the design carefully and you will see that it is nothing more than an ordinary generator.  No matter how much you think you are "tricking" the flux manipulation, in reality you are just tricking yourself.

Generate electricity by changing the flux through a coil:

1.  Move the magnet past the coil.
2.  Move the coil past the magnet.
3.  Move the ferrite core between the magnet and the coil.
4.  Use a fancy "flux redirector system" based on a moving laminated transformer core.

The items above are all the same.  You just have to open your eyes and your mind to see this.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 24, 2014, 05:18:36 PM
I move a magnet, or I move a ferrite core to make it look like I am moving a magnet - it's essentially the same thing.  If you open your mind and open your eyes you should see this.

In this thread the magnet and the coil are stationary!
The piece of material between is deviating magnetic flux strength between them.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 24, 2014, 05:25:30 PM
That is same mistake as it was when first conventional mechanical generator was ever created.
In fact I do not see single experiment of yours in this thread and the flooding of the forum with your posts are derailing topic. The unknowns in common knowledge was exposed in first Syrain's post and was ignored.. Typical.

Bullshit.  We are having a debate and it is on topic.  Also don't give me this foolishness about "flooding the forum."  "You are writing too much" is just nonsense on your part.

Don't give me this crap about "you don't do experiments either."   You are fully aware that I have some knowledge about the types of things we are discussing on this forum.  I have done hundreds of experiments.

I would be more than happy to discuss and debate things with you.  But don't give me this crap were you say, "you are flooding the forum" or "you don't do experiments."
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 24, 2014, 05:28:00 PM
Bullshit.  We are having a debate and it is on topic.  Also don't give me this foolishness about "flooding the forum."  "You are writing too much" is just nonsense on your part.

Don't give me this crap about "you don't do experiments either."   You are fully aware that I have some knowledge about the types of things we are discussing on this forum.  I have done hundreds of experiments.

I would be more than happy to discuss and debate things with you.  But don't give me this crap were you say, "you are flooding the forum" or "you don't do experiments."
Then show at least one experiment where coil and N-S magnets are stationary and the iron core is moving from the side and passing those magnets like in Syrain's design.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 24, 2014, 05:30:31 PM
In this thread the magnet and the coil are stationary!
The piece of material between is deviating magnetic flux strength between them.

So what?

Yes and the piece of material will require mechanical energy to make it move if you want to output power from the coil into a load.

Thought experiment:   You are blindfolded and the two wires from the coil are on your tongue.  Someone moves the magnet in front of the coil and you feel the voltage on your tongue.   Then, the magnet and the coil are stationary!  Someone moves a ferrite core between the magnet and the coil and you feel the voltage on your tongue.

Can you tell the difference?   The answer is that you cannot tell the difference
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 24, 2014, 05:33:08 PM
Then show at least one experiment where coil and N-S magnets are stationary and the iron core is moving from the side and passing those magnets like in Syrain's design.

Look at the tongue experiment that I just described to you.

The only thing the coil cares about is seeing changing magnetic flux.  You can move the coil, move the magnet, or move the ferrite core, it makes no difference.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on December 24, 2014, 05:37:12 PM
This is the point of this build https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OSXbG2BmUw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OSXbG2BmUw) Thanks Jimboot.
When a magnet induces current in a coil the coils magnetic field opposes the magnet.
When iron is between the two at some point you get attraction which doesnt happen in a conventional generator.
So unless you have built it and know it doesnt work your talken trash.
Simple......................
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 24, 2014, 05:40:14 PM
So what?

Yes and the piece of material will require mechanical energy to make it move if you want to output power from the coil into a load.

Thought experiment:   You are blindfolded and the two wires from the coil are on your tongue.  Someone moves the magnet in front of the coil and you feel the voltage on your tongue.   Then, the magnet and the coil are stationary!  Someone moves a ferrite core between the magnet and the coil and you feel the voltage on your tongue.

Can you tell the difference?   The answer is that you cannot tell the difference.
In first post of this thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWU12Db_MY - the kinetic energy is created by motor which is powered by the same generator it is running.
And I know the difference how much energy is required to turn generator shaft and how much energy it creates. It requires less energy to power motor than generator is giving on output when the magnetic flux is alternated by passing core instead of moving magnet or coil.
Also I am not going to waste time for proving it to you, you got all information already for building it. The most annoying thing here is finding posts every morning in this thread what has nothing to do with Syrain's generator and concepts how to make replication of it...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dave45 on December 24, 2014, 05:48:33 PM
Im working on an alternator variant, need to order a pm for the alternator.
I figured this was the cheapest route to go since I have a few laying around.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 24, 2014, 05:49:53 PM
This is the point of this build https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OSXbG2BmUw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OSXbG2BmUw) Thanks Jimboot.
When a magnet induces current in a coil the coils magnetic field opposes the magnet.
When iron is between the two at some point you get attraction which doesnt happen in a conventional generator.
So unless you have built it and know it doesnt work your talken trash.
Simple......................

No I'm not talking trash.  It's 100% conventional, you just want to believe that it's not conventional.  One more time, it's a failure of the imagination.  Ultimately, you will get Lenz drag when you move the iron or the ferrite.

They are welcome to build and do their testing.  I have no intention of stopping anybody.  However, if you just sat down and studied the basic fundamentals before you built it you would be that much wiser.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Kator01 on December 24, 2014, 05:57:34 PM
Luc,

if you cut out the red marked section of the core you might as well take away the full half of the lamination as the remaining outer parts can not carry much flux ( flux path is broken ) ..this is only true for the shown orientation of lamination.

The ciritcal point I see is the very small overlapping area of the U-core cross-section. Most of this area is exposed to the airgap.

What would I do ?

not cutting of the core and bigger cross-section of the U-core

Kator01
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 25, 2014, 12:06:09 AM
Kator01:
I don't believe Luc ment to cut the center of the core out, I think he meant to just take the corners off in that area.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 25, 2014, 12:53:15 AM
This is the point of this build https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OSXbG2BmUw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OSXbG2BmUw) Thanks Jimboot.
When a magnet induces current in a coil the coils magnetic field opposes the magnet.
When iron is between the two at some point you get attraction which doesnt happen in a conventional generator.
So unless you have built it and know it doesnt work your talken trash.
Simple......................
The iron carries the PM's magnetic field,and thus becomes a temorary magnet it self,and the lenz force act's apon this temporary magnet the same way as it would the PM it self. At the point where you get this attraction of the iron to the magnet,is the point where no current is being produced by the generating coil,and this attraction force is equal when the iron is trying to leave the PM as well,and the net result is zero. You then add eddy current losses induced into the iron,and you now have a loss that will be in the form of heat in the iron.

I have an !off the shelf! flux gate generator that is very similar to the one this thread is all about,and it is one of the worst performers i have ever come across as far as generators go-although it looks a treat ::) These designs have been around for a very long time(the one i have was built back in the 50's i believe),and you wont see them in any new tech-->there is a reason for this,and that reason is because of there poor efficiency.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 25, 2014, 01:40:29 AM
Generate electricity by changing the flux through a coil:
1.  Move the magnet past the coil.
2.  Move the coil past the magnet.
3.  Move the ferrite core between the magnet and the coil.
4.  Use a fancy "flux redirector system" based on a moving laminated transformer core.
5.  Heat up a ferromagnetic core inside a coil above its Curie point
6.  Chill a ferromagnetic core inside a coil below its Curie point
7.  Squeeze a ferromagnetic core inside a coil (including sound waves)
8.  Modulate the permeability of a ferromagnetic core inside a coil with a strong electric field.
9.  Change the shape of the coil
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 25, 2014, 01:45:13 AM
Kator01:
I don't believe Luc ment to cut the center of the core out, I think he meant to just take the corners off in that area.

Thanks guys, I won't cut anything for now.

@ lumen, do you think my U-core should be wider as Kator01 mentions below. It's not a problem to make it wider if you think it needs it!

The ciritcal point I see is the very small overlapping area of the U-core cross-section. Most of this area is exposed to the airgap.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2014, 01:48:00 AM
5.  Heat up a ferromagnetic core inside a coil above its Curie point
6.  Chill a ferromagnetic core inside a coil below its Curie point
7.  Squeeze a ferromagnetic core inside a coil (including sound waves)
8.  Modulate the permeability of a ferromagnetic core inside a coil with a strong electric field.
9.  Change the shape of the coil

5. Adding energy to the circuit.
6. Adding energy to the circuit.
7. Adding energy to the circuit, either mechanical, or electric.
8. Adding energy to the circuit.
9. Adding energy to the circuit: mechanical.


I submit that any of your suggestions would require more energy than Lenz would take away...even IF you were able to suppress Lenz with any of these methods, which is not a given at this point.


Bill
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 25, 2014, 02:24:57 AM
5. Adding energy to the circuit.
6. Adding energy to the circuit.
7. Adding energy to the circuit, either mechanical, or electric.
8. Adding energy to the circuit.
9. Adding energy to the circuit: mechanical.
Yes, most of these methods of changing the flux penetrating a coil requires energy input, except pt.6 and the energy balance of pt.8 is questionable (see the article by Konrad & Brudny in IEEE Transactions on Magnetics, Vol. 41, No. 10 from October 2005)

I submit that any of your suggestions would require more energy than Lenz would take away...
Perhaps, but I did not claim otherwise.   For completeness, I just supplemented MileHigh's listing of methods that change the flux through the coil.

However,  I disagree with your implication, that the phenomenon described in the Lenz's law is responsible for any energy being "taken away".  For example, the mechanical drag (a mechanical energy loss) experienced by moving magnets in proximity to shorted/loaded coils and other conducting materials is not due to the Lenz's law but to their electrical resistance.

In an ideal coil without resistance there is no mechanical drag to an approaching and departing magnet, despite that current is still induced in such coil in full accordance with the Lenz's law.
In SC coils the integral of abs(force) over distance is exactly the same during the approach as during the departure of the moving magnet (to and from infinity), so there is no net gain nor loss (drag) of mechanical energy over the full cycle.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2014, 02:33:08 AM

In SC coils the integral of abs(force) over distance is exactly the same during the approach as during the departure of the moving magnet (to and from infinity), so there is no net gain nor loss (drag) of mechanical energy over the full cycle.

Thanks.  But, does this also include a load on the circuit?  What if the load increases?  Then what?

Bill
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 25, 2014, 02:39:07 AM
Thanks.  But, does this also include a load on the circuit?  What if the load increases?  Then what?
It doesn't.  A resistive load will ultimately and irreversibly convert the mechanical energy to heat and a capacitive load will reversibly convert it to charge.
The irreversible conversion will be manifested as mechanical drag but Mr.Ohm will be the one responsible for it - not Mr.Lenz.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 25, 2014, 02:44:19 AM
Instead of trying to cheat Mr.Lenz with irrelevant VRM, etc... it is much more interesting to ponder the recovery of ferromagnetic polarization energy from an air core coil that attracts a movable soft ferromagnetic core from afar.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 25, 2014, 07:02:29 AM
Instead of trying to cheat Mr.Lenz with irrelevant VRM, etc... it is much more interesting to ponder the recovery of ferromagnetic polarization energy from an air core coil that attracts a movable soft ferromagnetic core from afar.

NoBull:

That old and tired method has been tried by every pulse motor builder for the last ten years. Zero success!


A superconducting coil would have 100% Lenz.
Any induced coil current would respond with 100% Lenz.

Lenz is not well understood by most. Connect a battery to a coil and you generate a magnetic field because you have current flowing in the coil.

When the coil cuts a magnetic field loop current is induced in the shorted coil and this same current generates a magnetic field just like the battery did.
Nothing special, nothing magical, just current in the coil generating a magnetic field.

If possible, cheating Lenz would be your only hope for success.
Core loss for any reason could be reduced or nearly eliminated if you first found a way to remove Lenz from the picture.

Lenz is the primary issue when converting work to electrical current.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 25, 2014, 07:42:46 AM
Thanks guys, I won't cut anything for now.

@ lumen, do you think my U-core should be wider as Kator01 mentions below. It's not a problem to make it wider if you think it needs it!

Luc:

When the C reaches the ends of the coils two cores, the idea is to have the C short the field at this point across the two coil cores.
The shorting will reduce the magnetic field loops and contain it in two separate loops inside the coil.
There should be nearly no field leaving the core at this point which is the basis for placing Lenz on the other side of the prime mover.
When the C section rotates about 20 degrees, the field loops will expand and cut the coil to connect to the C section which is reversed of the normal method of using the Iron C to push the field into the coil and against Lenz.
With load on the coil, the loops are prevented from expanding outward cutting the coil by Lenz and can only cut the coil with a force dependent on the magnet itself.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 25, 2014, 08:14:01 AM
NoBull:
That old and tired method has been tried by every pulse motor builder for the last ten years. Zero success!
Really?  Can you point me to an example?

A superconducting coil would have 100% Lenz.
Any induced coil current would respond with 100% Lenz.
Yes, but don't all loaded coils respond to external flux change according to Lenz's law?

Lenz is not well understood by most. Connect a battery to a coil and you generate a magnetic field because you have current flowing in the coil.
That behavior is the subject od Ampere's law of magnetostatics.
Lenz's law is a qualitative law that only states the polarity of the induced voltage (emf) and current (if one is allowed to flow) in response to a changing external flux. 
It doesn't even state their magnitude, bummer:(

When the coil cuts a magnetic field loop, current is induced in the shorted coil and this same current generates a magnetic field just like the battery did.
Except this internally generated flux is in the opposite direction to the external changing (cut) flux.
In an ideal shorted coil this internally generated flux is equal but opposite to the external changing flux and when you add both of them up, the net flux penetrating the coil (their sum) stays constant (see this video (http://youtu.be/CvShY8YAis4))

If possible, cheating Lenz would be your only hope for success.
Lenz is the primary issue when converting work to electrical current.
Without Lenz's law behavior, the changing magnetic flux would not be converted to electrical current in a coil/conductor, regardless of what caused that external flux change.

In other words, if you get rid of coil's response according to Lenz's law then you get rid of Faraday's law response, too and all induced current with it. 
Mathematically Lenz's law is the -1 factor in the Faraday's law. Getting rid of it (setting it to zero) would cancel the entire Faraday's law and kill all induction with it :(
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 25, 2014, 03:58:37 PM
Do not read above pointless debate, instead read older posts, if you are looking for free energy devices! so many hothads we have.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 25, 2014, 04:50:10 PM
In other words, if you get rid of coil's response according to Lenz's law then you get rid of Faraday's law response, too and all induced current with it. 
Mathematically Lenz's law is the -1 factor in the Faraday's law. Getting rid of it (setting it to zero) would cancel the entire Faraday's law and kill all induction with it :(
The another way is leave Lenz force (induced magnetic field) as it is but have it on 90 degrees to the force changing magnetic flux on coil. So you isolate it from external force in that way. And this is what was shown in CAD drawings on beginning of this thread...


P.S> Merry Christmas everyone!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 25, 2014, 04:52:20 PM
Do not read above pointless debate, instead read older posts, if you are looking for free energy devices! so many hothads we have.
"Do not read" ?  -  this server is not in North Korea.

Logical analysis is not pointless.  That's how coils respond whether you like it or not. 
There is ~200years of experimental evidence to support this.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 25, 2014, 05:25:05 PM
The another way is leave Lenz force (induced magnetic field) as it is but have it on 90 degrees to the force changing magnetic flux on coil.
Orthogonal flux in a core is something else, even if it has merits in ferromagnets. 
It is beyond the scope of the Lenz's law which involves ONLY the response of a coil to varying magnetic flux perpendicular to the coil's cross section.  Don't conflate these two.

There is an Annis-Eberly patent involving orthogonal flux redirection in a ferromagnetic core (see attachment) but the response of its coils is still in full accordance with the Lenz law.

Gunderson also has a patent involving orthogonal flux redirection in a ferromagnetic cores which does not change the Lenz response of its coils.  See here (http://overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/msg390668/#msg390668) and here (http://l reluctance.).
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: PhysicsProfessor on December 25, 2014, 05:28:15 PM
 Allow me to pose a thought experiment, based on the fact that magnetic fields propagate at finite speeds.


Consider three single-loops of wire, A-B-C with A (to the right) and C (to the left) separated by a distance L from B, axes co-linear.


Initially, none is carrying a current and all three are stationary in the lab frame, on a fixed frame which however is free to move.


Then one sends a current through B in a short pulse such that it is OFF when any return field comes back from A and C.  Shortly before the magnetic field from B arrives, short current pulses are sent into coils A and C in directions such that the arriving B-field will push A to the right and will also push C in the same direction.  Then these currents are also quickly shut off.


How does the frame move after the currents are shut off?  Is linear momentum conserved?  How?


(One can also place A-B-C on a large wheel which is free to spin, and ask the same questions, this time about angular momentum being conserved, or not.)


Merry Christmas to all.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: epwpixieq-1 on December 25, 2014, 08:07:49 PM

Your logic is flawed.  I stated that water is a good analogy for electricity.  If you search you will probably find thousands or tens of thousands of references stating that.  Yes, you will find a 19th century Oliver Heaviside reference where he says it's not the case.

So, how do you yourself analyze this situation?   You have thousands or tens of thousands of references that agree with me.  You have perhaps just a few that disagree with me.  What do you do in a case like this?

Water can model electricity perfectly when you look at the energy dynamics.  That is the context for this statement.  Beyond that, I don't have to look anywhere to make this statement.  I can use my education and intellect to clearly and unambiguously see that this is 100% true.


In the above I am just going to quote Heaviside ( "Electrical Papers", Volume 1, p. 283, the end of the second paragraph ):
Quote from: Heaviside  link=https://ia600406.us.archive.org/12/items/electricalpapers01heavuoft/electricalpapers01heavuoft.pdf
Self-confidence is, no doubt, an excellent thing in its way, but when coupled with ignorance of the fundamental truths of dynamics (which they should know is an exact science), leads to extraordinary jumbles sometimes. Did they only deceive themselves in their delusions little harm would be done, but when they take to writing books for students, then a whole body of blind followers is precipitated into the ditch of mental confusion, from which extrication is so difficult, and whose mud sticks for so long.

I have a doubt that anyone with a higher weight in the development of the Electro-magnetic theory could have summed it better. So, as one can detect, it is NOT the volume that counts but the QUALITY of the reasoning and 2x10^4 Google results do not make a truth, for for that matter any number ( as googleplex for example)  of Google results in your searches will not make the truth.
The truth about the real world does not care at all of our misunderstanding of it, and only the strongest antithetical and experimentally oriented minds can understand that.

Heaviside may have been referring to some other aspect of electricity, I don't know.

It would be helpful if you read Heaviside's writing on "a perfect conductor is a perfect obstructer":  https://books.google.com/books?id=YIhDAQAAMAAJ (https://books.google.com/books?id=YIhDAQAAMAAJ) ( p. 592, The Electrician, March 24 1893 )
Of course, reading ONLY this will make little sense and you may end up reading the entire "Electromagnetic Theory" Volume 1, 1893, a collection of all of the Heaviside's papers published in the Electrician. As general, everyone should read Heaviside, for I can tell you by personal experience, this is quite an enrichment process, and drives to the core of our misunderstandings on many levels.

So, it looks like you have a problem with the fact that a magnetic field will be outside of a wire, and the is nothing outside of a water pipe.  The interesting thing about that is it does not matter.  The analogy in terms of power and energy still works perfectly.
Actually, the CORRECT  analogy and understanding meters a lot, and this can be quite strikingly see in the theory of Carl Anton Bjerknes, published and lectured by his son, Vilhelm Bjerknes, in his Columbia University Lectures:  https://archive.org/details/fieldsofforce00bjeruoft (https://archive.org/details/fieldsofforce00bjeruoft)
The most fundamental idea in this understanding , is that the forces and interactions correctly, theoretically and experimentally, model the magnetic and the electric phenomena when the incompressible fluid is on the OUTSIDE, of the pulsating/vibrating bodies and not on on the inside, as I noted in my post.

Sorry for diverging from the thread. Hopefully this comments are not wasteful and will be educational for the audience.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 25, 2014, 08:42:21 PM
Epwpix:

Okay, let's put Oliver Heaviside to the side for a minute and just discuss the electricity-water analogy.

You are still disagreeing with me.  If you are disagreeing with me then tell me why the analogy is wrong.  NO, you cannot point back to Oliver Heaviside or any other reference.  Do you understand me, I am asking you to tell me yourself why you disagree with what I say,

Can you tell me why the analogy is wrong in your own words?

Now, let's assume for the sake of argument that you can't tell me.  I don't want to prejudge you, it all depends on your response to my question.   However, if you can not actually tell me that the analogy is wrong, then what does that say?

What it says is that you can't disagree with a concept under the following conditions:  1)  You don't understand the concept yourself, and 2) The only thing that you know is that you have a reference that is in disagreement with the concept.  That is simply not a way to formulate an argument.

Please be honest and I will wait for your response.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on December 25, 2014, 09:11:55 PM
Epwpix
your contributions have always inspired thought and as I see here perhaps provoke more thought than some are comfortable with...
and beg a return to familiar ground.


thx
Chet
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 25, 2014, 09:50:13 PM
Chet:

Take a pot-shot at me if you want.  That leads into a question for you:  Do you yourself understand the water-electricity analogy?  If you do, can you cite an example?

This reminds me of a time where I was making reference to the right-hand rule.  Somebody posts back with a link to some obscure process or application where there was a reference to a "left-hand rule."

So, what does that say?  You find a reference to a "left-hand rule" and therefore the right-hand rule is not valid or does not apply anymore?  That type of contorted twisted nonsensical "debating" style is something you see around here quite often.  Case in point:  Two-plus years ago somebody says, "that must be a dleayed-Lenz effect when my rotor speeds up."  After that hundreds of people talk about the "delayed Lenz effect" without defining it, without qualifying it in terms of what they are observing on their bench, and without even knowing what it means.  Yes, it is as bad as that.

So, there are a few references to Oliver Heaviside dismissing the water-electricity analogy in a 19th century text.  Do we know the context for those statements?  Does the fact that somebody said something in the 19th century have any bearing or relevance on what I said?  Do his comments automatically invalidate my comments?  Can you just brush aside literally thousands of links backing up what I said "just because?"

These kinds of things directly apply to you Chet when you chase after people that aren't credible and all factors are pointing towards them being criminals.

I am 100% comfortable with my statement that water can be an excellent analogy for electricity.  I submit that people are disagreeing with me without even understanding the concept in the first place.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Dog-One on December 25, 2014, 10:50:08 PM
I am 100% comfortable with my statement that water can be an excellent analogy for electricity.  I submit that people are disagreeing with me without even understanding the concept in the first place.

The part I am uncomfortable with is water flowing OUTSIDE the pipe.  I have no way to simulate or even visualize that.  If electricity does this and we are using a water analogy, well...   Lets just say it gets difficult.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on December 25, 2014, 11:10:38 PM
MH
Yes I appreciate the water analogy and how it applies,I truly appreciated when Miss Lipsnitzle
shared it with Us for the first time in 3rd grade.


twas most enlightening...


I also feel that your latest challengers points are not time sensitive or inappropriate to the discussion.[as noted somewhat by DogOne above]
quite the contrary..and regarding your time stamp on him or Lenz delay,I find that very odd indeed...
I will leave you to your speech um interrogation Ouuhuurr  _discussion_...


thx
Chet

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on December 25, 2014, 11:41:21 PM
Analogies have their limits and all break down at some fine level of analysis. This doesn't make them less useful in the levels where they do apply, though. The hydraulic analogy applies to the Ohm's Law quantities, and to a certain degree with capacitance and higher-order phenomena like resonance, and starts to break down when magnetic effects come more into consideration. I don't think there is anything in the hydraulic analogy that properly describes induction, but the analogy works well enough when people are trying to visualize and understand the basics of current, resistance, voltage, etc.
What's astounding is that even our best description of what is happening with electromagnetism is also analogy. For example, the photon: It is _like_ a particle, it is _like_ a wave... but the truth is perhaps much deeper than that. Analogies are useful tools and sometimes they are the best or even the only way we have of thinking about physical entities like photons or electrons, atomic particles or forces of interaction. Field? Analogy it is.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 25, 2014, 11:47:32 PM
This is a hydraulic analogy of an inductor.

This was an animated GIF but this forum's software converted it and kept only its first frame  >:(
Somebody talk to Stefan about it - if you know him.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 26, 2014, 12:19:30 AM
Analogies have their limits and all break down at some fine level of analysis. This doesn't make them less useful in the levels where they do apply, though. The hydraulic analogy applies to the Ohm's Law quantities, and to a certain degree with capacitance and higher-order phenomena like resonance, and starts to break down when magnetic effects come more into consideration. I don't think there is anything in the hydraulic analogy that properly describes induction, but the analogy works well enough when people are trying to visualize and understand the basics of current, resistance, voltage, etc.
What's astounding is that even our best description of what is happening with electromagnetism is also analogy. For example, the photon: It is _like_ a particle, it is _like_ a wave... but the truth is perhaps much deeper than that. Analogies are useful tools and sometimes they are the best or even the only way we have of thinking about physical entities like photons or electrons, atomic particles or forces of interaction. Field? Analogy it is.

TK:

This is where MileHigh's "Physical Systems" course circa 1980-81 comes into play.

For starters, we are not going to be nit-picky about fine details here.  It's the general concepts that are the most important things and you don't want to take your eye off of the ball.  In that sense there is no breakdown at all.

Again, the context is voltage, current, power, energy.  Water is a perfect analogy for electricity.  Note we are _not_ talking about the magnetic field.  When you work on your bench are you waving a Hall sensor all over the place?

Quote
The hydraulic analogy applies to the Ohm's Law quantities, and to a certain degree with capacitance and higher-order phenomena like resonance, and starts to break down when magnetic effects come more into consideration.

Resistance, capacitance, inductance, and resonance are all _perfectly_ modeled "in water" and you don't need the big contraption that NoBull showed in the graphic, even though that is also valid.

Chet:  Talk straight - learn to say "I don't know."

Anyway, the reason this topic is here is because Epwpix said, "Oliver Heaviside said it's not true."  It is true and I asked him to comment.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 26, 2014, 12:30:41 AM
Allow me to pose a thought experiment, based on the fact that magnetic fields propagate at finite speeds.
Consider three single-loops of wire, A-B-C with A (to the right) and C (to the left) separated by a distance L from B, axes co-linear.
Initially, none is carrying a current and all three are stationary in the lab frame, on a fixed frame which however is free to move.
Then one sends a current through B in a short pulse such that it is OFF when any return field comes back from A and C.  Shortly before the magnetic field from B arrives, short current pulses are sent into coils A and C in directions such that the arriving B-field will push A to the right and will also push C in the same direction.  Then these currents are also quickly shut off.
This is a very good question and a difficult one.
To answer this, it is necessary to know how quickly the near field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation#Near_and_far_fields) magnetic field propagates.
I always wanted to measure this speed but I run into practical engineering difficulties.

...there are some that believe that the non-radiative near field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation#Near_and_far_fields) interactions are instantaneous, and allegedly a team of Chinese scientists has made a 72g thruster by bouncing microwaves in a CLOSED! container :o based on this principle

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/31/nasa-validates-impossible-space-drive
and
http://www.emdrive.com/yang-juan-paper-2012.pdf
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 26, 2014, 12:38:57 AM
Analogies have their limits and all break down at some fine level of analysis. This doesn't make them less useful in the levels where they do apply, though. The hydraulic analogy applies to the Ohm's Law quantities, and to a certain degree with capacitance and higher-order phenomena like resonance, and starts to break down when magnetic effects come more into consideration. I don't think there is anything in the hydraulic analogy that properly describes induction, but the analogy works well enough when people are trying to visualize and understand the basics of current, resistance, voltage, etc.
What's astounding is that even our best description of what is happening with electromagnetism is also analogy. For example, the photon: It is _like_ a particle, it is _like_ a wave... but the truth is perhaps much deeper than that. Analogies are useful tools and sometimes they are the best or even the only way we have of thinking about physical entities like photons or electrons, atomic particles or forces of interaction. Field? Analogy it is.
The venturi effect can be used to replicate induction,and the inertia of the water flow in the pipes can be used as the magnetic field produced by current flowing through a wire/inductor.

Anything can be replicated with water flowing through pipe's that can be done with power flowing through wires. Pulse motor's,inductive kickback systems--you name it,it can be done with water.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 26, 2014, 01:52:24 AM
Small update

MC to all
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 26, 2014, 02:24:42 AM
Luc:

It's looking good.
Initially I thought the "C" section would across the ends of the core sections but it should yield some results once you get it setup to rotate.
Your design would also let you put a keeper across the core section ends to retain the field in the core while the "C" section is rotating, possibly helping to reduce the field in the "C" section while perpendicular to the core sections. An air gap to the keepers could control the leakage.
I considered that to be the main problem with this design but it leaves open a test for that issue.

Nice.

Everyone bouncing around here seem to have no idea of what this test design is attempting to achieve.

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 26, 2014, 03:07:40 AM
In these builds there are always the real-world problems when working with the available materials at hand.  It's a nice build so far, but there is one limitation that I see that I see frequently when people are doing stuff like this.

In the first picture you see how the laminations on either side of the magnet are vertical.  I am assuming that the magnet is polarized "front to back."  In other words the polarization is the in the same direction as the magnet wire that forms the top of the coil.

So, the flux generated by the magnet is trying to go across laminations.  The insulating gaps between the vertical laminations are adding a lot of reluctance, preventing a "more robust" flux flow.  If the laminations met the ends of the magnet end-on then flux would flow more freely into the laminations.  However, if you did do this, then you get lousy coupling into the "C" section.   The existing configuration gives you fair coupling with the magnet and good coupling to the "C" section (assuming the "C" section and the ends of the laminations are "flat and shiny" and mate together very well.

So geometry makes this one rather difficult to build with a "robust" flux circuit that alternates as per your design goals.  Making the "C" section rotate and stay very flush with the laminations attached to the magnet will be another challenge.

I still have to say this:  All that this will accomplish is that it will "tickle" the amount of flux that passes through the coil.  The coil will then generate an AC output voltage from this "tickle."

When you strip this down to the bare essentials, one more time all that you have is a system that inputs some mechanical power to make the "C" section rotate.  That "tickles" the coil with changing flux and thus you get an AC output voltage from the coil.   If there is a load on the output coil then there will be Lenz drag on the rotating "C" section.  This is as true as day follows night.  This device will not overcome the laws of physics or give you a work-around to bypass the laws of physics.

The whole thing could just as easily be analyzed on paper or more realistically with some kind of FEM package.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 26, 2014, 03:13:21 AM
Thanks for your reply and the additional idea of a keeper lumen.

If the first tests prove to work well I can also add another C core on the other side.
If I did that, do you think each C core should rotate together or each on the opposite cores or 90 degrees from each other?

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 26, 2014, 03:32:58 AM

In the first picture you see how the laminations on either side of the magnet are vertical.  I am assuming that the magnet is polarized "front to back."  In other words the polarization is the in the same direction as the magnet wire that forms the top of the coil.

MileHigh

MileHigh:

Not sure what direction you were trying to explain here.
The magnet is "N" facing into one coil core and "S" facing into the other coil core.

I would believe the flux flow would be better if the laminations were into the magnet poles also if that's what you were trying to say, but with the "C" core rotating across the top of the coil cores and not the ends, it is likely the better choice since the field at the magnet is mostly stationary when compared to the rotating "C" section.

The flux should connect better from the coil cores to the "C" section the way it is now.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: prochiro on December 26, 2014, 05:02:46 AM
LUC

I do understand what your setup is trying to test but it does not truly represent the generator in question and by the time you get it spinning, much effort, money,and time will pass. I am not saying stop but can offer a simpler and more direct method.  Also the the terms you guys are using (delayed lentz, etc. ) may be better stated as deflected lentz. You cant get rid of lentz and would not want to but deflection is really what is going on here. When I take a stick and stand in the river, facing upstream,  when I first slap the water it causes a small back pressure. If I held it there, (Static thinking and testing), the back pressure will continue and slow the river a bit. If I just slap the water quick, there will be an instant of back pressure and a couple of other things one could only see by lifting the stick fast. First there is a void of water where the slap was, a momentary time where there is nether forward or backward water in that spot. This is good. The next thing one will notice is the wave. The actual water (or force) I deflected moves out sideways at an angle proportional to the river speed and is continued in that direction, out of my way. That is also good. Now, I will not stand here and debate this principle as all analogies do break down if one wants to waste time and act immature.  All this example is for is to explain what is going on in the generator.

Now for two testing ideas.
1. I am sure that many here,as I have, built a motor  with several discs of plexiglass. Make one with three discs, the two outside ones are stationary. One with coils (even one) and the other with a strong magnet. Now the center disc is for iron and it rotates. Wait a minute, does this sound like the generator as only iron is moving? You will see cogging strong at first spin but as in the film, you will turn it easily with your finger once it gets going as lentz effect is deflected. If you like what you see and feel or not feel then go with it.

2. Simply place several iron pieces on a three foot strip of plexiglass and mount it in a pair of 2x4s with a slot cut out on the edge for the plexiglass to slide into. This will look like something one would use to cut his head off. Mount a coil on the back side and a magnet on the front side. Lift up the slide and drop it so it runs past the coil. This happens fast so get your scope set up and record.

These will not give you hundreds of volts but will show in a lineal way the principal. The first one is best as it will indicate lentz information and the second one will just show a blip of power. You all saw on the film, cogging on the loaded generator that was at first strong. You may not have noticed that  the guy was turning the loaded generator with the tip of his finger after that. Test with other than Iron will not be the same. These two examples are simple to conduct and directly relates to this design, getting you past this first stage and on to better building. There are a few other obstacles to overcome and a redesign with motor and generator in one case.

Again, if you guys are going to do this,  stop setting things aside to talk to bullsitters as I will not ether.
Prochiro
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 26, 2014, 05:09:07 AM
MC Luc,
Nice setup. I've stumbled upon another effect, still trying to understand it. It may have nothing to do with the Wesley Gary motor in my setup. I'll make a video of it but it is almost ot for the effect we are investigating. Basically a 10% drop in input current when I draw power. I haven't checked RPMs yet so I may be losing there. Anyway lots of measurements to make. Thanks for the pix. How do you intend to fix the axle?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 26, 2014, 05:31:33 AM
LUC



Now for two testing ideas.
1. I am sure that many here,as I have, built a motor  with several discs of plexiglass. Make one with three discs, the two outside ones are stationary. One with coils (even one) and the other with a strong magnet. Now the center disc is for iron and it rotates. Wait a minute, does this sound like the generator as only iron is moving? You will see cogging strong at first spin but as in the film, you will turn it easily with your finger once it gets going as lentz effect is deflected. If you like what you see and feel or not feel then go with it.

2. Simply place several iron pieces on a three foot strip of plexiglass and mount it in a pair of 2x4s with a slot cut out on the edge for the plexiglass to slide into. This will look like something one would use to cut his head off. Mount a coil on the back side and a magnet on the front side. Lift up the slide and drop it so it runs past the coil. This happens fast so get your scope set up and record.

These will not give you hundreds of volts but will show in a lineal way the principal. The first one is best as it will indicate lentz information and the second one will just show a blip of power. You all saw on the film, cogging on the loaded generator that was at first strong. You may not have noticed that  the guy was turning the loaded generator with the tip of his finger after that. Test with other than Iron will not be the same. These two examples are simple to conduct and directly relates to this design, getting you past this first stage and on to better building. There are a few other obstacles to overcome and a redesign with motor and generator in one case.

Again, if you guys are going to do this,  stop setting things aside to talk to bullsitters as I will not ether.
Prochiro
Thanks Good advice and great experiment setup. Are you building?

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 26, 2014, 05:45:30 AM
MileHigh:

Not sure what direction you were trying to explain here.
The magnet is "N" facing into one coil core and "S" facing into the other coil core.

I would believe the flux flow would be better if the laminations were into the magnet poles also if that's what you were trying to say, but with the "C" core rotating across the top of the coil cores and not the ends, it is likely the better choice since the field at the magnet is mostly stationary when compared to the rotating "C" section.

The flux should connect better from the coil cores to the "C" section the way it is now.

I will mark up one pic here and show you what I thought the config was supposed to be.  If the magnet polarization is incorrect you or Luc can please clarify.  I think we agree on the flux coupling business.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 26, 2014, 05:52:09 AM
@prochiro, thanks for the advice.  However, I will complete the above build as it should only be another days work. Also, the cost of material was $25. for the MOT the magnet and wire I had.

@Jimboot, thanks for your positive comment.  Always looking forward to your videos.
The prime mover will be a drill press turning the C core over the surface of the I core (as seen in pic) which will be secured to a thick piece of lumber so not to loose flux to the drill press platter.

Should have a video demo by the 27th

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 26, 2014, 05:58:19 AM
I will mark up one pic here and show you what I thought the config was supposed to be.  If the magnet polarization is incorrect you or Luc can please clarify.  I think we agree on the flux coupling business.

MileHigh

Yes MH, you got it all right! ... also, see my post above on what will be turned.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: PhysicsProfessor on December 26, 2014, 06:51:41 PM
This is a very good question and a difficult one.
To answer this, it is necessary to know how quickly the near field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation#Near_and_far_fields) magnetic field propagates.
I always wanted to measure this speed but I run into practical engineering difficulties.

...there are some that believe that the non-radiative near field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation#Near_and_far_fields) interactions are instantaneous, and allegedly a team of Chinese scientists has made a 72g thruster by bouncing microwaves in a CLOSED! container :o based on this principle

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/31/nasa-validates-impossible-space-drive (http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/31/nasa-validates-impossible-space-drive)
and
http://www.emdrive.com/yang-juan-paper-2012.pdf (http://www.emdrive.com/yang-juan-paper-2012.pdf)


Thanks for pointing to the "emdrive" which is indeed fascinating.  And controversial.
New Scientist published a cover article on this device in 2006, and comments on the article read like comments so often encountered here. 


I invite the reader to look at the "erudite arguments" on both sides, here:
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/fromthepublisher/2006/10/emdrive-on-trial.html


Amazing. 
A wikipedia article provides numerous references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive


I'm still looking at this device - it appears that NASA did a test and found a thrust, which does seem to violate conservation of momentum... maybe.  To me, the most important factor lies in repeatability of experiments; not in theory arguments.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: PhysicsProfessor on December 26, 2014, 07:16:40 PM
  The reaction-less emdrive probably deserves its own thread.  Very interesting.


NASA did conduct tests, July 2014, as reported in wiki:

Quote
NASA/JSC Advanced Propulsion Physics Laboratory (Eagleworks)[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=EmDrive&action=edit&section=5)]A NASA team at the Advanced Propulsion Physics Laboratory (informally known as Eagleworks)[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-Eagleworks-26) located at the Johnson Space Center (JSC) under the guidance of physicist Harold G. White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_G._White_(NASA)) is devoted to studying advanced propulsion systems that they hope to develop using quantum vacuum and spacetime engineering. The group has investigated a wide range of fringe proposals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fringe_science) including the EmDrive, and related concepts listed below.[/size]RF resonant tapered cavity thruster (EmDrive)[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=EmDrive&action=edit&section=6)]In July 2014, the group reported positive results for an evaluation of a RF resonant tapered cavity similar to Shawyer's EmDrive.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-NASA_AIAA_2014-14)Testing was performed using a low-thrust torsion pendulum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_pendulum) capable of detecting force at the micronewton level within a sealed but not evacuated vacuum chamber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_chamber); the RF power amplifier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RF_power_amplifier) used an electrolytic capacitor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor) not capable of operating in a hard vacuum.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-NASA_AIAA_2014-14) The experimenters recorded directional thrust immediately upon application of power.
NASA's tests of this tapered RF resonant cavity were conducted at very low power (2% of Shawyer's 2002 experiment and 0.7% of the Chinese 2010 experiment), but a net mean thrust over five runs was measured at 91.2 µN at 17 W of input power. A net peak thrust was recorded at 116 µN at the same power level.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-NASA_AIAA_2014-14)[/font][/size]
The experiment was criticized for not having been conducted under vacuum, which would have eliminated thermal air currents. The researchers plan to replace vacuum-incompatible components.[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-Astronotes-27)[/font][/size]
In the coming months, Eagleworks plans to upgrade their equipment to higher power levels, use vacuum-capable RF amplifiers with power ranges of up to 125 W, and design a new tapered cavity analytically determined to be in the 0.1 N/kW region. The test article will be subjected to independent verification and validation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verification_and_validation) at Glenn Research Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Research_Center), the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_Propulsion_Laboratory), and the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_Physics_Laboratory).[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-NASA_AIAA_2014-14)


Wow... they're going after it, despite the critics who said vehemently --
 "it's impossible!"
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 26, 2014, 10:27:42 PM
  The reaction-less emdrive probably deserves its own thread.  Very interesting.


NASA did conduct tests, July 2014, as reported in wiki:


Wow... they're going after it, despite the critics who said vehemently --
 "it's impossible!"
Placing an object in a vacuum chamber but then not actually even closing the door much less pumping down to a decently low pressure is pointless.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on December 26, 2014, 10:43:05 PM
Placing an object in a vacuum chamber but then not actually even closing the door much less pumping down to a decently low pressure is pointless.
When they started pumping, the electrolytic caps started bulging out so they gave up until a vacuum immune RF amplifier is obtained.
Other than that mentioning a vacuum chamber without a vacuum is pointless indeed.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 26, 2014, 11:13:22 PM
When they started pumping, the electrolytic caps started bulging out so they gave up until a vacuum immune RF amplifier is obtained.
Other than that mentioning a vacuum chamber without a vacuum is pointless indeed.
The bottom line is that the tests that involved very small forces were not conducted in an environment that eliminated forces from ions formed in the surrounding atmosphere.  The test results are GIGO.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on December 27, 2014, 12:56:30 AM

Mark E
you work in sanitation now...... garbage in Garbage out??

Actually some of us can read too...
there is no bottom line yet ,just some adjustments and further experiments....


this is typical of actual experiments into unknown regions.


the coming months, Eagleworks plans to upgrade their equipment to higher power levels, use vacuum-capable RF amplifiers with power ranges of up to 125 W, and design a new tapered cavity analytically determined to be in the 0.1 N/kW region. The test article will be subjected to independent verification and validation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verification_and_validation)  at  Glenn Research Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Research_Center) , the ]Jet Propulsion Laboratory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_Propulsion_Laboratory) , and the Johns Hopkins University  Applied Physics Laboratory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_Physics_Laboratory) [14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-NASA_AIAA_2014-14)


sorry it does not meet your higher "experimental sanitation" standards ,perhaps you should apply for a consulting Job over there and show them how its done??

We do have some acquaintances over there...I'll put in a word for you ?


PLEASE ??


thx
Chet



Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 27, 2014, 01:52:52 AM
Mark E
you work in sanitation now...... garbage in Garbage out??

Actually some of us can read too...
there is no bottom line yet ,just some adjustments and further experiments....
The suggestion was that those experiments provided meaningful data.  The fact is that they did not.  It doesn't matter whether one favors Shawyer's claims or not:  Because the experiments were conducted in an ordinary atmosphere they could not establish whether force acting on the assembly was due to ionized particles in the surrounding atmosphere or the relativistic CoM violations claimed by Shawyer.
Quote


this is typical of actual experiments into unknown regions.
No this is typical of experiments with inadequate planning.  The problem was that they had electronics on the unit that were incompatible with the test conditions that they needed to establish.  It is no secret that wet electrolytic capacitors can't handle low pressure environments.
Quote


the coming months, Eagleworks plans to upgrade their equipment to higher power levels, use vacuum-capable RF amplifiers with power ranges of up to 125 W, and design a new tapered cavity analytically determined to be in the 0.1 N/kW region. The test article will be subjected to independent verification and validation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verification_and_validation)  at  Glenn Research Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Research_Center) , the ]Jet Propulsion Laboratory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_Propulsion_Laboratory) , and the Johns Hopkins University  Applied Physics Laboratory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_Physics_Laboratory) [14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-NASA_AIAA_2014-14)


sorry it does not meet your higher "experimental sanitation" standards ,perhaps you should apply for a consulting Job over there and show them how its done??

We do have some acquaintances over there...I'll put in a word for you ?
Be as snarky as you want.  I am still waiting for you to show an example of where your group has produced an effective evaluation in the time efficient manner that you claim.
Quote


PLEASE ??


thx
Chet
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 27, 2014, 03:04:52 AM
Hi everyone,

I know you're all at the edge of your seats waiting for someone to build a test device and post the results, so today I made an effort to get mine done and as I'm writing this a video demo with basic test results is being uploaded.

I must say even though the video has some interesting results I will ask those who have hope this device is the real thing to please stay calm and not jump to the conclusion this is a free energy device until we have done many more tests and I'm ready to make that claim.

I'll explain a little why I ask this.
When I first tested the device I used the drill press (prime mover) at the slowest speed and when I connected the load it consumed the exact power from the prime mover that the load delivered. So I thought this device isn't working and was going to post the video that way.

However, just before uploading the video I had the idea to try a higher RPM just to see what would happen.  So I went up two speeds and to my surprise it now was delivering power to the load without affecting the prime mover. So then I went up another speed and now it actually uses less power when under load.
So I shot the video of that and at the end of the video I said I would try a higher load resistor to see what happens and used a 12.5 Ohm load instead of the 1 Ohm load and it delivered 30 watts to it but also used 30 watts from the prime mover.

So there's something interesting going on but we need to take our time to better understand it.

Also, some weeks back I posted that I had the feeling this was similar to the ReGen-X effect and after seeing today's results I'm still thinking the very same way. So lets work together in a caring way so we can improve this effect as a group effort.

Link to video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZXFns8PZ38

Help ever hurt never

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2014, 03:28:16 AM
Luc:

I really appreciate your caution in reporting your findings.  Warning folks not to jump to conclusions is always good advice.  I will watch your video, and I look forward to following your work in this area.

Very nice work.

Bill
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 27, 2014, 03:45:19 AM
Hi everyone,

I know you're all at the edge of your seats waiting for someone to build a test device and post the results, so today I made an effort to get mine done and as I'm writing this a video demo with basic test results is being uploaded.

I must say even though the video has some interesting results I will ask those who have hope this device is the real thing to please stay calm and not jump to the conclusion this is a free energy device until we have done many more tests and I'm ready to make that claim.

I'll explain a little why I ask this.
When I first tested the device I used the drill press (prime mover) at the slowest speed and when I connected the load it consumed the exact power from the prime mover that the load delivered. So I thought this device isn't working and was going to post the video that way.

However, just before uploading the video I had the idea to try a higher RPM just to see what would happen.  So I went up two speeds and to my surprise it now was delivering power to the load without affecting the prime mover. So then I went up another speed and now it actually uses less power when under load.
So I shot the video of that and at the end of the video I said I would try a higher load resistor to see what happens and used a 12.5 Ohm load instead of the 1 Ohm load and it delivered 30 watts to it but also used 30 watts from the prime mover.

So there's something interesting going on but we need to take our time to better understand it.

Also, some weeks back I posted that I had the feeling this was similar to the ReGen-X effect and after seeing today's results I'm still thinking the very same way. So lets work together in a caring way so we can improve this effect as a group effort.

Link to video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZXFns8PZ38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZXFns8PZ38)

Help ever hurt never

Luc


Thanks Luc! Good to be cautious. Great video as always. I couldn't tell from the vid do you think the prime mover rpms are the same under load?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 27, 2014, 04:20:53 AM
Luc:
Nice test.
I'm surprised you have some good results right from the start.
You might want to get a base load on the drill press by replacing the device with a piece of wood and record the motor load at several RPM for future reference.
This would allow us to test whether the decrease is load is simply relieving some drag in the cores.
 
Maybe put together a list of changes you might want to try and what you predict they might change in it's operation.
Good start!
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: PhysicsProfessor on December 27, 2014, 05:01:05 AM
  Good work, Luc.  More power to you!


  Just as one would not pre-judge Luc's experiments, so we might be patient with the experiments in progress by NASA and colleagues re: EMdriver.


QUOTE
NASA/JSC Advanced Propulsion Physics Laboratory (Eagleworks)[[/size]edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=EmDrive&action=edit&section=5)[/font][/size]]A NASA team at the Advanced Propulsion Physics Laboratory (informally known as Eagleworks)[/size][26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-Eagleworks-26)[/font][/size] located at the Johnson Space Center (JSC) under the guidance of physicist [/size]Harold G. White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_G._White_(NASA))[/font][/size] is devoted to studying advanced propulsion systems that they hope to develop using quantum vacuum and spacetime engineering. The group has investigated a wide range of [/size]fringe proposals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fringe_science)[/font][/size] including the EmDrive, and related concepts listed below.RF resonant tapered cavity thruster (EmDrive)[[/size]edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=EmDrive&action=edit&section=6)[/font][/size]]In July 2014, the group reported positive results for an evaluation of a RF resonant tapered cavity similar to Shawyer's EmDrive.[/size][14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-NASA_AIAA_2014-14)[/font][/size]Testing was performed using a low-thrust [/size]torsion pendulum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_pendulum)[/font][/size] capable of detecting force at the micronewton level within a sealed but not evacuated [/size]vacuum chamber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_chamber)[/font][/size]; the [/size]RF power amplifier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RF_power_amplifier)[/font][/size] used an [/size]electrolytic capacitor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor)[/font][/size] not capable of operating in a hard vacuum.[/size][14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-NASA_AIAA_2014-14)[/font][/size]The experimenters recorded directional thrust immediately upon application of power.[/size]NASA's tests of this tapered RF resonant cavity were conducted at very low power (2% of Shawyer's 2002 experiment and 0.7% of the Chinese 2010 experiment), but a net mean thrust over five runs was measured at 91.2 µN at 17 W of input power. A net peak thrust was recorded at 116 µN at the same power level.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-NASA_AIAA_2014-14)[/size][/size][/font][/size]The experiment was criticized for not having been conducted under vacuum, which would have eliminated thermal air currents. The researchers plan to replace vacuum-incompatible components.[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-Astronotes-27)[/size][/size][/font][/size]In the coming months, Eagleworks plans to upgrade their equipment to higher power levels, use vacuum-capable RF amplifiers with power ranges of up to 125 W, and design a new tapered cavity analytically determined to be in the 0.1 N/kW region. The test article will be subjected to independent verification and validation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verification_and_validation)[/size] at [/size]Glenn Research Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Research_Center)[/font][/size], the [/size]Jet Propulsion Laboratory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_Propulsion_Laboratory)[/font][/size], and the Johns Hopkins University [/size]Applied Physics Laboratory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_Physics_Laboratory)[/font][/size].[/size][14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive#cite_note-NASA_AIAA_2014-14)[/font][/size]
UNQUOTE


"Independent verification and validation" - is something that should be looked for and lauded, not pre-judged and condemned. 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 27, 2014, 05:59:49 AM

Thanks Luc! Good to be cautious. Great video as always. I couldn't tell from the vid do you think the prime mover rpms are the same under load?

Thanks Jimboot. I'll be doing more detailed tests with RPM and so on in the next video.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 27, 2014, 06:04:13 AM
Hi Luc-great video. I would like to see what the drill press draws without the coil and core under it-but leave the magnetic gate in the chuck.What i believe you will find is that without the coil and core under the rotating gate,your current draw by the drill press will be even less than it is when you have your load resistor placed across your inductor. I have found that the core's act much like a battery,and the alternating magnetic flux is what charges these batteries,and in your case,the battery is shorted. When you hook up the load to your inductor,this magnetic charge then go's through your coil,and thus current flows through your resistor,so your magnetic power(if we can call it that)is no longer trying to charge your shorted battery,and thus you see a load drop on your prime mover when you place your load resistor across the coil.Maybe placeing a load on your inductor is some how relieving the eddy current stress in the core,and this is the very thing i have been working on-eddy current stress relief.

Anyway-as alway's-great work. 8)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 27, 2014, 06:17:31 AM
Luc:
Nice test.
I'm surprised you have some good results right from the start.
You might want to get a base load on the drill press by replacing the device with a piece of wood and record the motor load at several RPM for future reference.
This would allow us to test whether the decrease is load is simply relieving some drag in the cores.
 
Maybe put together a list of changes you might want to try and what you predict they might change in it's operation.
Good start!

Thanks lumen,

well like I wrote, at first I thought it didn't work!... so interesting how increasing RPM made such a difference? ... much like ReGen-X effect works!

I agree, a baseline power consumption test should be done with just spinning the C core without the I cores in place to know how much power is being dissipated in the cores and see if that number matches the power output. Hopefully it will be lower then the output. I was planing in doing such a test.
Lots to test!
BTW, I did test placing small pieces of cores with an air gap between the I cores and that reduced the output quite a bit.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 27, 2014, 06:25:50 AM
Hi Luc-great video. I would like to see what the drill press draws without the coil and core under it-but leave the magnetic gate in the chuck.What i believe you will find is that without the coil and core under the rotating gate,your current draw by the drill press will be even less than it is when you have your load resistor placed across your inductor. I have found that the core's act much like a battery,and the alternating magnetic flux is what charges these batteries,and in your case,the battery is shorted. When you hook up the load to your inductor,this magnetic charge then go's through your coil,and thus current flows through your resistor,so your magnetic power(if we can call it that)is no longer trying to charge your shorted battery,and thus you see a load drop on your prime mover when you place your load resistor across the coil.Maybe placeing a load on your inductor is some how relieving the eddy current stress in the core,and this is the very thing i have been working on-eddy current stress relief.

Anyway-as alway's-great work. 8)

Thanks Brad

I agree with you mate and why I wrote to hold off on declaring this a success. Lets hope the coil output will be just a little more then the losses.

I'll post a new video with such a test tomorrow.

Stay tuned

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: havuhung on December 27, 2014, 06:58:37 AM
Hi gotoluc,


Thanks.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2014, 06:59:04 AM
Luc:

It's a very nice build, but you are dealing with essentially the same issues as were seen in your generator clip using the Dremel.

The efficiency of the drill press is unknown.  So you have about 150 watts of power consumption and about 5 watts going into the load resistor.  It's simply too difficult to know how many mechanical watts are going into the rotor because that is "buried" in the unknown efficiency of the drill press setup.  One thing that we do know is that the faster electrical motors run, the better they tend to perform.  That likely explains your observations when the drill press runs at a higher RPM.

When you disconnect the load resistor the power draw of the drill press goes up.  When current is flowing through the generator coil, that reduces the cogging.  We see from the beginning of your clip that the cogging is very strong.  When you disconnect the load resistor you actually hear the cogging kick in.  That's the main reason the power draw increases, because of the nasty cogging acting like a disturbance torque on the motor.

Note that you have two conflicting trends.  When you add a load resistor in theory the power draw from the prime mover increases.  In reality that does happen.  But at the same time, adding a load resistor results in current flow, and that reduces the cogging resulting in a decrease in power draw from the motor.  Even though in theory the cogging is energy-neutral, in practice you can literally hear the increased stress on the system when the cogging is happening.  These two conflicting trends make it nearly impossible for you to get the real data that you are looking for.

So, you can make measurements, but between the unknown and variable efficiency of the drill press setup, and the conflicting trends of adding a load resistor and at the same time time decreasing the cogging, it will make it essentially impossible to extract any useful data.

Note that Thane Heinz's experiments suffer from a similar problem.  The power inefficiency of his transformer setups is ignored and he just focuses on his differential power measurements.  He ignores the power inefficiency that does nothing more than produce a lot of waste heat.  His differential "efficiency improvements" are buried by all the inefficient waste heat being produced.  The waste heat is always larger than his actual power measurements.

So what is the solution?   I certainly don't know the best solution but I do know a tried and proven solution.  It's the same old thing:  If you had a big flywheel on a very good bearing, and you knew the moment of inertia of the flywheel, then you could use that as your power source.  Doing this completely eliminates the unknown efficiency of the drill press setup.  When the flywheel drives the rotor you can make a precise measurement of its deceleration.  Then you crunch the numbers and calculate the mechanical power being output by the flywheel for various test setups.  If the flywheel is large enough, then you will not have to worry about the cogging at all.  The energy-neutral cogging will not affect the flywheel like it affects the motor.

Perhaps somebody has a better idea, but the only way I can envision extracting real data from your tests is to do flywheel spin-downs.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2014, 07:15:01 AM
I am just going to reduce my posting to the bare bones:

You have to know the rotational mechanical power you are putting into the rotor.  That's the torque times the angular velocity.   Note the torque is also not constant.

If you had a reliable way to measure (a.k.a. know) the mechanical power being put into the rotor, then all of the measurements of the generator coil output would be good data.

How do you do that?  That's the proverbial sixty-four thousand dollar question.  If anybody has any ideas I am sure that Luc would be interested.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 27, 2014, 08:06:39 AM
Luc:

It's a very nice build, but you are dealing with essentially the same issues as were seen in your generator clip using the Dremel.

The efficiency of the drill press is unknown.  So you have about 150 watts of power consumption and about 5 watts going into the load resistor.  It's simply too difficult to know how many mechanical watts are going into the rotor because that is "buried" in the unknown efficiency of the drill press setup.  One thing that we do know is that the faster electrical motors run, the better they tend to perform.  That likely explains your observations when the drill press runs at a higher RPM.

When you disconnect the load resistor the power draw of the drill press goes up.  When current is flowing through the generator coil, that reduces the cogging.  We see from the beginning of your clip that the cogging is very strong.  When you disconnect the load resistor you actually hear the cogging kick in.  That's the main reason the power draw increases, because of the nasty cogging acting like a disturbance torque on the motor.

Note that you have two conflicting trends.  When you add a load resistor in theory the power draw from the prime mover increases.  In reality that does happen.  But at the same time, adding a load resistor results in current flow, and that reduces the cogging resulting in a decrease in power draw from the motor.  Even though in theory the cogging is energy-neutral, in practice you can literally hear the increased stress on the system when the cogging is happening.  These two conflicting trends make it nearly impossible for you to get the real data that you are looking for.

So, you can make measurements, but between the unknown and variable efficiency of the drill press setup, and the conflicting trends of adding a load resistor and at the same time time decreasing the cogging, it will make it essentially impossible to extract any useful data.

Note that Thane Heinz's experiments suffer from a similar problem.  The power inefficiency of his transformer setups is ignored and he just focuses on his differential power measurements.  He ignores the power inefficiency that does nothing more than produce a lot of waste heat.  His differential "efficiency improvements" are buried by all the inefficient waste heat being produced.  The waste heat is always larger than his actual power measurements.

So what is the solution?   I certainly don't know the best solution but I do know a tried and proven solution.  It's the same old thing:  If you had a big flywheel on a very good bearing, and you knew the moment of inertia of the flywheel, then you could use that as your power source.  Doing this completely eliminates the unknown efficiency of the drill press setup.  When the flywheel drives the rotor you can make a precise measurement of its deceleration.  Then you crunch the numbers and calculate the mechanical power being output by the flywheel for various test setups.  If the flywheel is large enough, then you will not have to worry about the cogging at all.  The energy-neutral cogging will not affect the flywheel like it affects the motor.

Perhaps somebody has a better idea, but the only way I can envision extracting real data from your tests is to do flywheel spin-downs.

MileHigh

Excellent posts MileHigh!

I appreciate your effort and honest opinion. I'm sure if we all work together in a supportive way to better understand how to best test and deal with this kind of effect we will get there.

You mentioned flywheel, how about I add a flywheel above the C core?... would that not smooth the cogging so we would get more stable power readings?

To everyone else, please share your thoughts on a way to obtain reliable power measurements of such a setup.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 27, 2014, 09:49:54 AM
Excellent posts MileHigh!

I appreciate your effort and honest opinion. I'm sure if we all work together in a supportive way to better understand how to best test and deal with this kind of effect we will get there.

You mentioned flywheel, how about I add a flywheel above the C core?... would that not smooth the cogging so we would get more stable power readings?

To everyone else, please share your thoughts on a way to obtain reliable power measurements of such a setup.

Regards

Luc
Yes,as MH said,a large flywheel to store the energy would be the way to go-it's just like haveing a large cap across a pulsed DC output to smooth out the pulses,and get a stedy flow of current.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 27, 2014, 09:59:20 AM
Here are two test i did with this flux gate generator setup using 2 ring magnets... ;)

Here is one test setup with 1 small coil... ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1FavPfg_Tc&list=UUNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw

And here's another test i did with a longer coil... 8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_rP9Pf2IeU&list=UUNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw&index=2

The reason i'm placing the coils on the edge is that there is the spot for the most output... :o
Man,that rotor anf flywheel are that well machined i can hardly seem them spinning lol. I see the woodwork is stil up to scratch TJ ;)

Im looking a lot deeper into this delayed magnetic field effect,and as you will see in my next video,i have an induced magnetic field that comes from !i dont know where! lol.-Advanced and delayed magnetic fields will be my new topic-watch for it.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: centraflow on December 27, 2014, 11:57:49 AM
Quote:- MH


Note that you have two conflicting trends.  When you add a load resistor in theory the power draw from the prime mover increases.  In reality that does happen.  But at the same time, adding a load resistor results in current flow, and that reduces the cogging resulting in a decrease in power draw from the motor.  Even though in theory the cogging is energy-neutral, in practice you can literally hear the increased stress on the system when the cogging is happening.  These two conflicting trends make it nearly impossible for you to get the real data that you are looking for.[/size]

[/size]
Unquote


Now I like to see the trees without the forest, just makes things simpler ;D


I think the whole point is, Why does the cogging stop under load? and not when unloaded?


MH please explain that without covering those trees with a forest ;)  or anyone else :)


thanks in advance


regards


Mike 8)



Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Grumage on December 27, 2014, 12:44:06 PM
Luc:


The efficiency of the drill press is unknown.  So you have about 150 watts of power consumption and about 5 watts going into the load resistor.  It's simply too difficult to know how many mechanical watts are going into the rotor because that is "buried" in the unknown efficiency of the drill press setup.  One thing that we do know is that the faster electrical motors run, the better they tend to perform.  That likely explains your observations when the drill press runs at a higher RPM.


MileHigh

Dear MileHigh.

With respect, your statement above is incorrect.

On all but the most sophisticated Drill presses the drive motor's shaft speed remains near constant. Spindle speed change is effected by changing the drive belt ratios under the top cover.

Cheers Grum.

PS. There are also three rather nifty flywheels already built in !!  In the form of the Cast Iron multi stage pulleys.  ;) :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2014, 04:24:15 PM
Luc:

Quote
I appreciate your effort and honest opinion. I'm sure if we all work together in a supportive way to better understand how to best test and deal with this kind of effect we will get there.

You mentioned flywheel, how about I add a flywheel above the C core?... would that not smooth the cogging so we would get more stable power readings?

You are welcome.  There is no point in adding a flywheel to the C-core if you are still driving it with the drill press motor.  I am assuming the electrical-in-to-mechanical-out efficiency of the drill press setup is always an unknown variable within the limitations of your testing and measuring environment, no matter what.  For sure the efficiency will change at different speeds and loads.

The thought-experiment flywheel would be a big metal flywheel, say about 50 pounds in weight and say two or three feet in diameter.  It would be on a very high performance bearing so that it would take a very long time for an unloaded spin-down.  There would be a series of tiny magnets or optical markings on the edge of the flywheel so you could record ticks to measure the deceleration.  You would mount the C-core rotor on the flywheel and then move the generator/stator into position and start recording the ticks.

I can imagine something like mounting the fancy flywheel + bearing into the chuck of a lathe.  Then you mount the stator/generator assembly in other the part of the lathe for holding your workpiece.  Sorry my lathe vocabulary sucks.  I marked up a pic, please see attached.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: PhysicsProfessor on December 27, 2014, 04:34:48 PM
Tinman noted:
Quote
Im looking a lot deeper into this delayed magnetic field effect,and as you will see in my next video,i have an induced magnetic field that comes from !i dont know where! lol.-Advanced and delayed magnetic fields will be my new topic-watch for it.[/size]


The "delayed magnetic field effect" and induced B fields are of great interest.  Looking forward to your vid.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2014, 04:45:24 PM
Quote:- MH


Note that you have two conflicting trends.  When you add a load resistor in theory the power draw from the prime mover increases.  In reality that does happen.  But at the same time, adding a load resistor results in current flow, and that reduces the cogging resulting in a decrease in power draw from the motor.  Even though in theory the cogging is energy-neutral, in practice you can literally hear the increased stress on the system when the cogging is happening.  These two conflicting trends make it nearly impossible for you to get the real data that you are looking for.[/size]

[/size]
Unquote

Now I like to see the trees without the forest, just makes things simpler ;D

I think the whole point is, Why does the cogging stop under load? and not when unloaded?

MH please explain that without covering those trees with a forest ;)  or anyone else :)

thanks in advance

regards

Mike 8)

There are different types of cogging.  Let's define some terms.  Let's say that a "push" is a push against the direction of the rotation of the prime mover so that it tries to slow the prime mover down.   Let's say that a "pull" is a pull in the direction of the rotation of the prime mover so that it tries to speed up the prime mover.   Let's assume that we are working with a standard pulse motor with magnets on the rotor and a single generator coil.  The generator coil may or may not have a ferrite core.

If you have a generator coil driving a load and no core, you get a "push-push" cogging.  The first push is the Lenz drag repulsion from the magnet approaching the generator coil and the second push is the Lenz drag attraction from the magnet leaving the generator coil.

I have seen clips with this setup where load resistor is such that it only draws a small amount of energy from the rotor for each magnet fly-by.  Then the tester changes the load resistor so the energy draw is very large.  You hear a "thwack! thwack! thwack!" as the rotor spins and before you know it the rotor stops.  That's because the generator coil is sucking up way more rotational energy out of the rotor than the drive coil of the pulse motor can supply.

So that is one type of cogging.  It's "push-push" cogging.  If the coupling between the rotor magnets and the generator coil is very good, and you choose a load resistor value that sucks a lot or energy per magnet pass, then you get "big-push-big-push" cogging and the pulse motor craps out and stops.

...continued...
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2014, 05:09:26 PM
Now let's look at the case where the there is a generator coil with a core, but there is no load resistor.   In this case, the rotor magnet is attracted as it approaches TDC of the generator coil and that's a pull.   When the rotor magnet passes TDC you get a push.

So in this case, you get a "pull-push" type of cogging.  This is in theory energy neutral.

In Luc's case, it's a "big-pull-big push."  This stresses the rotor and the stator assembly and you get mechanical hysteresis losses.  In other words it's like bending a coat hanger and the bending point gets hot.   However, my gut feel is telling me the main source of the losses are in the motor itself because the motor does not like being yanked around by the big-pull-big-push.

In Luc's case, when he disconnects the load resistor while the drill press is running you clearly hear the "thwack! thwack! thwack!" of the big-pull-big push cogging.

So why does the sound of the cogging go away when Luc's connects the load resistor?

In this case you have two things happening at the same time, the cogging from driving the load resistor and the cogging from the attraction to the "core."

From the load resistor:      big-push-big-push
Form the core attraction:   big-pull-big-push

The net result:                  "cancellation"-bigger-push

In other words, the Lenz drag from the rotor approaching TDC, and the attraction of the rotor to the "core" tend to cancel each other out.  This cancellation effect tends to mitigate the cogging.   Even through past TDC the Lenz drag and the rotor attraction add up and produce a bigger push, it's still a "smoother ride" for the rotor will less overall disturbance happening.

Your ears give you the reality check.  It's very obvious that the "thwack! thwack! thwack!" gets much louder and the electrical power draw of the drive motor goes up the moment Luc disconnects the load resostor.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on December 27, 2014, 05:10:24 PM
@MH: "Tailstock" is the word I think you are looking for...   ;)

@ others: I've demonstrated how to obtain an accurate power dissipation figure for a rotor turning at any given RPM, if you know the rotational Moment of Inertia (MoI) of the rotor and can make a graph of the rotor speed vs. time. The power dissipation is proportional to the instantaneous slope of the deceleration curve as the rotor slows down, unpowered. Then, when the rotor is powered to maintain a steady speed, the power applied to the rotor is the same as the power dissipated by the unpowered rotor at that same speed. You can have your "generator" coils operational during the rundown testing, and this will take care of the complicating factors mentioned above, or you can have them inactive if you are only concerned with the mechanical power dissipation. A chart recorder and a sensitive RPM/rotor position monitoring system makes the job relatively easy, once you know the MoI of the rotor. But if you are careful and have a lot of patience you can plot the rundown curve by hand.
The rotational MoI can be calculated from the geometry and mass distribution of the rotor itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJavCZX_-PI


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2014, 05:27:56 PM
Dear MileHigh.

With respect, your statement above is incorrect.

On all but the most sophisticated Drill presses the drive motor's shaft speed remains near constant. Spindle speed change is effected by changing the drive belt ratios under the top cover.

Cheers Grum.

PS. There are also three rather nifty flywheels already built in !!  In the form of the Cast Iron multi stage pulleys.  ;) :)

That's an excellent point.  In looking at Luc's clip it looks more likely that there is a belt drive for the drill press.  So I may be wrong in my earlier comments about this.  Another thing to consider is that the with the drill chuck assembly plus the rotor spinning at higher speed, there is more rotational inertia and so you are possibly back with a "smoother ride," especially for the motor itself.  Perhaps that partially accounts for Luc's observations at higher speeds but I am really not sure.

MileHigh

P.S.:  TK thanks for the vocabulary lesson!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 27, 2014, 08:28:40 PM
That's an excellent point.  In looking at Luc's clip it looks more likely that there is a belt drive for the drill press.  So I may be wrong in my earlier comments about this.  Another thing to consider is that the with the drill chuck assembly plus the rotor spinning at higher speed, there is more rotational inertia and so you are possibly back with a "smoother ride," especially for the motor itself.  Perhaps that partially accounts for Luc's observations at higher speeds but I am really not sure.

MileHigh

P.S.:  TK thanks for the vocabulary lesson!

Yes MH, the drill press is belt driven and not a direct drive. To change speeds you have to physically re-position the belt on a different  pulleys size. See pic

Thanks for your new update due to this fact

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2014, 09:09:01 PM
Yes MH, the drill press is belt driven and not a direct drive. To change speeds you have to physically re-position the belt on a different  pulleys size. See pic

Thanks for your new update due to this fact

Luc

Good to clarify this.  My micro drill press has both a variable speed motor control and the 3 position stepped pulley arrangement.

Bill
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 28, 2014, 12:03:50 AM
And here's another test i did with a longer coil... 8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_rP9Pf2IeU&list=UUNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw&index=2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_rP9Pf2IeU&list=UUNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw&index=2)
Hi,

Can you measure amps and make scope shot over 1 ohm resistor if possible?
The coil output power is interesting to see.

Link to video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZXFns8PZ38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZXFns8PZ38)

Out of curiosity, do you have any low power pulse motor to run your setup ? That would save lots of power input ;)
If you can reach say under 5 watts input then you might try looping coil output back to pulse motor power source.

Cheers!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 28, 2014, 04:39:07 AM
Hi everyone,

as some of us have been suspecting the higher RPM seems to be storing magnetic flux in the core and possibly if it has no where to go when coil is not under load it discharges or causes a braking effect when the C core changes phase which may be the slaps sound we hear. When the coil is on load the stored flux gets out so the C core makes it through to the next phase with ease.

Here is a test example of the prime mover input power when the drill press is at medium RPM range.

120w just turning the C core with I core away
140W with I cores in position and coil not on load
135W with coil on 1 Ohm load and delivering 5W to load.

So there's 10W which is not accounted for and it's hard for me to believe that so much power is being wasted in such small cores as Eddy currents and heat losses. At lower RPM there is less losses but also less output. It all seems to be linear and under unity.
If we could come close to a break even point I would say we are on the right track but it's not looking that good at the moment.
I have tried different load values, RPM's and so on but there is always losses.
I will still try different combinations and give an update if I find something better.

Please keep in mind what I'm testing is a variation of the original idea shared in this topic.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 28, 2014, 05:27:36 AM
Luc:
 
Try putting the keepers tight on the core to see if you can keep the entire flux loop in the core and test the load and output.
The output should be near zero since no flux is moving to the C core and the load should drop to about the same no device load of 120W.
 
I noticed in the static hand rotation that the C core does not attract to the gap. The core should attract into the gap with about the same force as when on the separate core ends.
It should increase the output but probably won't make it more efficient.
 
The flux retention in the C core may be the entire load and the coil prevents some flux from entering the core when under load. So in a sense the concept is working.
The Lenz in the coil pushes back on the field loop as it tries to exit the coil and lowers the flux in the C section and with less flux the changing flux is less and the loss is less.
 
So in the end, the best path may be to use the same concept but move less iron and possibly increase the time in the neutral zone between coil cores.
It may require some major changes but wait until your convinced of the issue and solution.
 
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on December 28, 2014, 12:30:32 PM
Hi guys,

My experiments with syairchairun setup showed low output no mater what you do, which is actually right!!. If you do the math or the experiments, you will see that the output will be at 5-15% of what you expecting. And its perfectly logical.

 I think Syairchairun give us wrong diagrams. Well I am 100% sure now..  Because I think I got it  ;)

After days and days of thinking and reading and experimenting, as most of you guys do here, just yesterday night I came up with a new idea..

At my first experiments of this new idea I notice: 1)Great power output!, 2) no braking effect with shorted coil! 3)easy to rotate.

It will be at a new thread. I am building a prototipe... I ll be back
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 28, 2014, 02:32:47 PM
Hi guys,

My experiments with syairchairun setup showed low output no mater what you do, which is actually right!!. If you do the math or the experiments, you will see that the output will be at 5-15% of what you expecting. And its perfectly logical.

 I think Syairchairun give us wrong diagrams. Well I am 100% sure now..  Because I think I got it  ;)

After days and days of thinking and reading and experimenting, as most of you guys do here, just yesterday night I came up with a new idea..

At my first experiments of this new idea I notice: 1)Great power output!, 2) no braking effect with shorted coil! 3)easy to rotate.

It will be at a new thread. I am building a prototipe... I ll be back


Looking forward to your update :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 28, 2014, 08:32:22 PM
Quote
120w just turning the C core with I core away
140W with I cores in position and coil not on load
135W with coil on 1 Ohm load and delivering 5W to load.

So there's 10W which is not accounted for and it's hard for me to believe that so much power is being wasted in such small cores as Eddy currents and heat losses.

Did you also factor in the losses in the coil itself when you say 5 watts going to the load?

Can you explain how you get 10 watts not accounted for?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 29, 2014, 07:20:34 AM
Luc:
 
Try putting the keepers tight on the core to see if you can keep the entire flux loop in the core and test the load and output.
The output should be near zero since no flux is moving to the C core and the load should drop to about the same no device load of 120W.
 

Yes lumen, when I add the keepers the output is next to nothing. Could this mode be used to calculate core losses?

I noticed in the static hand rotation that the C core does not attract to the gap. The core should attract into the gap with about the same force as when on the separate core ends.

Now that's interesting!... the only way the C core could stick between the magnet gap between the I cores is if the C core was thinner. I asked you that question at the beginning of the build. Anyways, it's not too late I can make it thinner. Now it overlaps a little on each I core and I guess that's why it doesn't lock in between. Let me know if you understand.

The flux retention in the C core may be the entire load and the coil prevents some flux from entering the core when under load. So in a sense the concept is working.

What if the coil was on the C core? what would be the difference?

The Lenz in the coil pushes back on the field loop as it tries to exit the coil and lowers the flux in the C section and with less flux the changing flux is less and the loss is less.

Interesting!

So in the end, the best path may be to use the same concept but move less iron and possibly increase the time in the neutral zone between coil cores.

Maybe it would be better to increase the distance between I cores.?... if I add another magnet it would double the gap. Do you think that would be too much?... see pic of present gap and C core width.

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 29, 2014, 07:27:19 AM
Hi guys,

My experiments with syairchairun setup showed low output no mater what you do, which is actually right!!. If you do the math or the experiments, you will see that the output will be at 5-15% of what you expecting. And its perfectly logical.

 I think Syairchairun give us wrong diagrams. Well I am 100% sure now..  Because I think I got it  ;)

After days and days of thinking and reading and experimenting, as most of you guys do here, just yesterday night I came up with a new idea..

At my first experiments of this new idea I notice: 1)Great power output!, 2) no braking effect with shorted coil! 3)easy to rotate.

It will be at a new thread. I am building a prototipe... I ll be back

Sounds interesting l0stf0x.

Looking forward to seeing your idea

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 29, 2014, 07:29:20 AM
Did you also factor in the losses in the coil itself when you say 5 watts going to the load?

No I did not

Can you explain how you get 10 watts not accounted for?

Prime mover starts at 120W just spinning the C core with no I cores in site.
We add the I cores with open coil, prime mover now uses 140W
So 20W is used to circulate Flux in the cores.  We now load the coil and prime mover drops by 5W and load on coil delivers 5W (2.25vrms on 1 Ohm load), so we deduct this from our 20W and we are left with 10W. True we have about 4 watts of losses in the 1.3 Ohm DC Resistance of the coil so we have about 6W which could be core Eddies and heat losses?

I had not added those losses. Do you think this looks realistic?

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 29, 2014, 08:20:12 AM
Luc:

I must have posted about five times over the past 10 days that you have to measure the resistive losses in the coil itself if you want to do a serious power analysis.  That especially applies for a low value of load resistor.

Your logic for your power analysis makes no sense to me.  Also, why didn't you share that when you first posted?  You can't possibly take it for granted that people would know what you were thinking.  If you are going to do some kind of analysis you have to explain to your audience your reasoning and what you are doing.

So why don't you take another crack at it?  From what I understand your setup is in line with the original clip that started this thread.  So perhaps your peers like T-1000 and others that are following this thread can help you out.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 29, 2014, 10:46:13 AM

Prime mover starts at 120W just spinning the C core with no I cores in site.
We add the I cores with open coil, prime mover now uses 140W
So 20W is used to circulate Flux in the cores.  We now load the coil and prime mover drops by 5W and load on coil delivers 5W (2.25vrms on 1 Ohm load), so we deduct this from our 20W and we are left with 10W. True we have about 4 watts of losses in the 1.3 Ohm DC Resistance of the coil so we have about 6W which could be core Eddies and heat losses?

I had not added those losses. Do you think this looks realistic?

Luc
Luc-please watch this test. You need ferrite core's,as steel laminated core's are shocking,even at low rpm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtB_7RkEg
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 29, 2014, 11:38:16 AM
Luc-please watch this test. You need ferrite core's,as steel laminated core's are shocking,even at low rpm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtB_7RkEg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtB_7RkEg)
Hey brad in my experiments the ferrite did not work nearly as well as steel laminates. It was explained by arenas and Matt that it's because the poles can't as flip as fast. I'm trying to work out where to get soft iron like syair used. Paul Babcock swears by steel shot but its a bit hard to get in melbourne.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on December 29, 2014, 12:36:56 PM
I have dificulty with construction with laminations, so this is going to take time, or I could use ferrite cores (small version) but this also will take time..

and because I don't want you to wait for me, but rather everyone build his own one..  so I decide to make some drawings and explanations so everybody will understand the idea.

I am drawing them now..


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 29, 2014, 01:13:49 PM
I have dificulty with construction with laminations, so this is going to take time, or I could use ferrite cores (small version) but this also will take time..

and because I don't want you to wait for me, but rather everyone build his own one..  so I decide to make some drawings and explanations so everybody will understand the idea.

I am drawing them now..


Thanks, I'm looking forward to seeing them
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 29, 2014, 01:19:52 PM
Hey brad in my experiments the ferrite did not work nearly as well as steel laminates. It was explained by arenas and Matt that it's because the poles can't as flip as fast. I'm trying to work out where to get soft iron like syair used. Paul Babcock swears by steel shot but its a bit hard to get in melbourne.
Ferrite will transition much faster that iron or steel,this is why they use ferrite in high frequency transformers or inductors. Steel and iron hold residual magnetism quite well-im guessing you have a few magnetised screwdrivers lying around?. See how much magnetised ferrite you have that wasnt a magnet to start with-my guess is none.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 29, 2014, 01:44:17 PM
Ferrite will transition much faster that iron or steel,this is why they use ferrite in high frequency transformers or inductors. Steel and iron hold residual magnetism quite well-im guessing you have a few magnetised screwdrivers lying around?. See how much magnetised ferrite you have that wasnt a magnet to start with-my guess is none.
Mmm interesting. I tried ferrites and mumetal. ( left over from Orbos) laminate steel worked best for output. As shown in your vid they certainly had more drag. I don't pretend to understand why, I just follow the data :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MarkE on December 29, 2014, 01:50:33 PM
Ferrite will transition much faster that iron or steel,this is why they use ferrite in high frequency transformers or inductors. Steel and iron hold residual magnetism quite well-im guessing you have a few magnetised screwdrivers lying around?. See how much magnetised ferrite you have that wasnt a magnet to start with-my guess is none.
A couple of properties that make soft ferrites desirable compared to iron or steel:  Much higher resistivity.  Eddy currents are much lower.  Low remanent flux.  Low hysteresis.  The much higher resistivity more than anything else makes them more suitable for higher frequency operation than iron or steel.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on December 29, 2014, 02:18:33 PM
Hi Jimboot, can you  or anyone else help me find the "New thread" button? :-\
thanks
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 29, 2014, 02:39:33 PM
There was one design mentioned in overunityresearch forum - http://u2.lege.net/newebmasters.com__freeenergy/external_links_from_theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/ElectromagneticDev/olafberens/olaf.htm (http://u2.lege.net/newebmasters.com__freeenergy/external_links_from_theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/ElectromagneticDev/olafberens/olaf.htm)

That build is close to Syrain's and also has merit to be tested by some experienced people. The magnetic forces are not balanced there so you will have drag due core attraction to magnet but the rest of build is on same principle with changing magnetic field on coil with iron core (should be transformer core to avoid Eddy currents) which is moving across path between coil and magnet...

http://www.google.com/patents/US5191258 (http://www.google.com/patents/US5191258)

http://u2.lege.net/newebmasters.com__freeenergy/external_links_from_theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/ElectromagneticDev/olafberens/photos/ger4.gif

Cheers!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 29, 2014, 02:41:08 PM
Hi Jimboot, can you  or anyone else help me find the "New thread" button? :-\
thanks
Go here http://overunity.com/news/#.VKFZtMAACI and you'll see the new topic button
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 29, 2014, 05:24:48 PM
Luc:

In order to get the "C" core to pull to the gap in the "I" cores the "C" core would need to be much thicker. Going thinner would cause the "C" core to not want to stay in the gap but pull to one side or the other while if it was wider it would pull to where the flux is best conducted.

We can see by rotating a large "C" section that flux moves into the "C" making it a magnet, then as the core rotates it pushes back from the next pole causing a load on the drive system.  The problem with a wider "C" core is that it will load with even more flux and increase the drag.

To me the solution is to mount the "C" core stationary below the "I" cores and make the "C" core as wide as the outside of the "I" cores. (about twice as wide as is now)

Space the "C" from the "I" cores and rotate other smaller segments to transfer the flux.

The idea is that flux retained in the smaller rotating pieces will be small because they can only retain a small amount of flux.

Overall, the way to reduce the core drag is to reduce the size of the moving iron.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 29, 2014, 10:33:21 PM
Luc-please watch this test. You need ferrite core's,as steel laminated core's are shocking,even at low rpm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtB_7RkEg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtB_7RkEg)

Good day Brad,

thank you for making this important video. I am aware of the difference in drag between Steel and Ferrite cores and why I used a ferrite as core in my test coil of the "Delayed Lenz or not?" topic:  http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg428570/#msg428570 (http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg428570/#msg428570)

However, what I don't know is how much the effect we are researching, often referred to as" Delayed Lenz" is reduced when using Ferrite compared to steel laminations?... all this needs much more testing.

Naturally it is much faster and cheaper to used steel laminations to build and test these new idea and is why I do so until I find what is the best design. Once this has been established we can order Ferrite cores and see how much better it does.

So I appreciate you taking the time to make this video so others can see there are possibly much more efficient core material we can use once we know the direction we want to take.

I have also experimented with Iron Powder cores and they are also very efficient and much easier to cut and shape then Ferrite, so they also need to be tested.

Thanks mate

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 29, 2014, 10:40:46 PM
I have dificulty with construction with laminations, so this is going to take time, or I could use ferrite cores (small version) but this also will take time..

and because I don't want you to wait for me, but rather everyone build his own one..  so I decide to make some drawings and explanations so everybody will understand the idea.

I am drawing them now..

I'm glad you came to that decision l0stf0x. Some of us are better equipped to build. Also, working as a group is much more efficient and productive.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 29, 2014, 10:56:03 PM
Hey brad in my experiments the ferrite did not work nearly as well as steel laminates. It was explained by arenas and Matt that it's because the poles can't as flip as fast. I'm trying to work out where to get soft iron like syair used. Paul Babcock swears by steel shot but its a bit hard to get in melbourne.


Ferrite will transition much faster that iron or steel,this is why they use ferrite in high frequency transformers or inductors. Steel and iron hold residual magnetism quite well-im guessing you have a few magnetised screwdrivers lying around?. See how much magnetised ferrite you have that wasnt a magnet to start with-my guess is none.

As Jimboot has found in his experiments (as I have), much of the effect is lost when using ferrite!... maybe Iron powder cores would be a better choice? 

Maybe MarKE can explain Iron powder vs Ferrite core characteristics.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: l0stf0x on December 29, 2014, 11:06:06 PM
I'm glad you came to that decision l0stf0x. Some of us are better equipped to build. Also, working as a group is much more efficient and productive.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Sharing is wise :)

Here it is check it please.. its simple idea but I can't find anything similar at google.. thanks ;)


http://overunity.com/15341/sotogen#.VKHP_14CAA
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 29, 2014, 11:14:50 PM
Luc:

In order to get the "C" core to pull to the gap in the "I" cores the "C" core would need to be much thicker. Going thinner would cause the "C" core to not want to stay in the gap but pull to one side or the other while if it was wider it would pull to where the flux is best conducted.

We can see by rotating a large "C" section that flux moves into the "C" making it a magnet, then as the core rotates it pushes back from the next pole causing a load on the drive system.  The problem with a wider "C" core is that it will load with even more flux and increase the drag.

To me the solution is to mount the "C" core stationary below the "I" cores and make the "C" core as wide as the outside of the "I" cores. (about twice as wide as is now)

Space the "C" from the "I" cores and rotate other smaller segments to transfer the flux.

The idea is that flux retained in the smaller rotating pieces will be small because they can only retain a small amount of flux.

Overall, the way to reduce the core drag is to reduce the size of the moving iron.

A few days ago I made a new rotating plate with a C core that is as wide as both the I cores (outside end to end). The result was a standard generator action. When coil was on load no matter the RPM the input to prime mover did not go down and the power across the load was exactly reflected back to the prime mover.

So I fail to see what you recommend would be any different?

Luc


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2014, 01:02:26 AM
Okay it's time for a generic rant at all of you.  This is not specific to any individual even though I am going to discuss Luc's build.  It's directed at the original participants in this thread, the original people interested in this proposition and Luc's build.  You all know who you are.

First of all Luc should be congratulated for doing the build.  It's real, it's very solid, and overall very well built and it obviously does what it is supposed to do.  I view Luc's build as your collective project and test bed.

Here is the problem:  Doing the build is only half of the project.  Doing the testing and measurements on the build is the other half of the project.  And to be be more realistic, it's the testing and measurements and drawing your conclusions from the data that really counts.  The build itself is only of secondary importance.  It's more like 10% build and 90% testing and analysis.

All of you guys have almost nothing to say about actually testing the device now that it has been built.  There is something seriously wrong there.  I have not seen a single suggestion from anybody on what to do now that the thing is actually built.

So many times I have been chastised by you guys, some of you are participants in this very thread.  I hear, "You know nothing if you don't build it yourself," or I hear, "We are builders and doers, and you are not a doer."  I also hear, "What you are saying is 'just words.'"

Well, right now I don't see any "doing" at all.  I see the usual bullshit where people start talking about different ferrite choices and stuff like that, bla bla bla.  That's bullshit, the build is done.  It's almost like you want to say anything to escape actually analyzing the system.  It's time for you to talk about what you are going to DO.

This is an energy forum, all about searching for new and alternative sources of energy.  You now have a perfectly good test bed, it's time for you to put your brains together and talk about how to test the energy aspects of this device.

If none of you have any ideas or something to say about testing the device, then why even bother building it in the first place?  I am serious.  I can't tell you how many times I have seen all sorts of enthusiasm for a new project, a few people build replications, and then nobody knows what to do.  You see somebody measure the current draw for their build, big fucking deal.

Now that this thing is built, what the hell do you do?   Is somebody going to step up to the plate and offer something real?  With all due respect to Luc, his first attempt at an analysis is no good.  But it is not just for him to do this himself.  It's up to you collectively to do something.  Right now you have a good solid build, and almost no data.  You have nothing to speak of.

So the challenge is out there to all of you.  If you all move on and nobody says anything, then this whole thing was an exercise in bullshit.  Likewise, when a new YouTube clip clip comes along and you want to replicate it in search of over unity, you had better seriously consider my words.  If you build something with no idea what you really are going to do, with no preliminary test plan, with no predefined goals for what the project is supposed to accomplish, then you are full of shit.  There is no point in being stuck in a revolving door going around in circles.

The "bonus rant" is that I don't want to hear people tell me, "Oh you are not a builder, you are not a doer, you have no right to say anything" - well you guys can kiss my ass because my credibility has long been establish by what I say.  I don't want to hear any stupid flack like that when I clearly can bring some value to the table.  Saying that "I am not a builder" is just an excuse to avoid listening or responding to what I have have to say.  I am not always right but at least I say something.

So, is this project already dead and gone, or do you guys as a collective group interested in this project and in the original YouTube clip have something of value to say?  What suggestions can you now offer to Luc after all the time and effort and expense he put into making his build?  His build is a test bed, so where do you guys, you "energy researchers" go from here?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 30, 2014, 01:10:44 AM
A few days ago I made a new rotating plate with a C core that is as wide as both the I cores (outside end to end). The result was a standard generator action. When coil was on load no matter the RPM the input to prime mover did not go down and the power across the load was exactly reflected back to the prime mover.

So I fail to see what you recommend would be any different?

Luc

Luc:
There are many interesting changes you could do and I suppose we don't know all that you have tried already.
Any results from changes both good or bad could be useful information.
 
It appears that flipping the flux back and forth through the "C" core requires a fair amount of work.
Do you think it would be the same if you kept the "C" section stationary also and used small iron sections for the switching.
 
What about if you had two stationary "C" sections forming an X. One on top and one on bottom.
Then used a small iron piece to transfer flux on bottom C and a different iron piece to transfer the flux on top C.
This way none of the cores need to change flux direction and there should be near zero loading from core loss.
 
Just some ideas.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2014, 01:27:47 AM
Lumen,

Taking into context my previous posting, you are just clutching at straws.  There is no point in trying some "new flux workaround" when the basic design as it exists right now redirects flux already.  In my opinion there is just no point in going in the directions you are suggesting.

I have another generic comment for your consideration.  When you talk about modifying builds or circuits, if your description is longer than three sentences then forget it.  Nobody can follow a full-paragraph description of a modification to a build or a schematic in their heads.  But they are usually too polite to tell the other person that.  What you end up with is a bullshit conversation where both parties are generating words, but neither party really and truly understands the other party.  Sometimes you see whole threads talking about new pick-up coil positions, and new circuitry, and that "that will generate a big spike here" and "that should recharge your source battery" and it's all bullshit.

Seriously, if it takes more than three sentences then you need a drawing or a schematic preferably with a timing diagram.  I read your prose but I simply don't have a 3D CAD program running in my head.  Please don't be offended, I am just being honest with you.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 30, 2014, 01:39:09 AM
Well MileHigh, out of the builds and tests so far, I would say I'm the only one that supplied the most power data. However, they don't meet your standards or expectations.
As I see it, if someone can't do at least the basic power tests I do, then they are not wanting to give the truth or they just don't know how to do it.  For myself this is all I know to do, so you saying I didn't do a good job is not going to change anything, as I always give as much as I know to do. I have said many times that I have no education and what I know has been self tough.
So the bottom line is, if you want to see more test data then you will have to explain how to do the test you would like to see. Also, you will have to write it in a laymen way as if it gets too technical (needing school education) it won't help.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2014, 02:06:26 AM
Luc:

Everybody has their strengths and weaknesses.  You have very strong build skills but you need to work on your analysis skills.  But like I said, this is not all on you.

The fantasy is that you collectively pool your brain power together so that the whole group is much stronger than any one individual.  I just stated that your first attempt at your analysis is no good.  It's only the first attempt.  All of your peers reading this thread are also reading this.  In theory you can all work together on the project and bounce ideas off each other and move forward together.  When you do that you all will learn off of each other also.  It's almost shocking that nobody can suggest a test method or work with you to analyze the system.  It's just as equally shocking that nobody has anything to say about your first analysis or can suggest a better way to anlyse the data that you have collected so far.

What I do know is that spoon feeding all of you my take on what is taking place will only be about 10% as effective as all of you working together towards a common goal.  You even need to define that goal amongst yourselves.  Likewise, ideally you all would come to some conclusion about your build and the original proposition as shown in the original YouTube clip.  The fantasy is that you can all say, "I UNDERSTAND" like I referenced in another posting on another thread.  In other words you all understand why this works, or why it does not work.

I am just not up to spoon-feeding all of you because almost nothing of that will sink in.  The way for you guys to learn and evaluate a free energy proposition is to do it yourselves.

Where the "I UNDERSTAND" comes into play is that you understand how and why it works, so that when the next proposition comes along that is nothing more than a variation on a very similar theme, then you all will be able to say, "I UNDERSTAND why it will not work."  Get into a real debate with the YouTube guy that is making the proposition.  Have him defend his claims before you even consider making a replication.

This "flux redirecting" stuff is not fundamentally different from a magnet moving past a coil or a coil moving past a magnet.  If you all understood, you would would see what foolishness a proposition like this actually is.

So is this whole project dead already with barely any testing done, or do you as a group on this thread start bouncing ideas off each other and start turning the testing in to something real?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on December 30, 2014, 04:04:27 AM
Just a reminder to those unaware this is also being discussed and developed over here


http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/19851-topic-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning-8.html#post268994


thx for looking


Chet


Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 30, 2014, 04:07:39 AM
Just a reminder to those unaware this is also being discussed and developed over here


http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/19851-topic-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning-8.html#post268994 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/19851-topic-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning-8.html#post268994)


thx for looking


Chet
Yep - there are no armchair quarterbacks either :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2014, 04:14:58 AM
Thanks Chet for reminding me of that.  I know the majority on the EF thread will be reading this thread.  Just for fun, I will read their thread.

They should get my message loud and clear also.  Build something and then really test it.  Do something real with the testing and start generating some real data and try to learn something and draw some conclusions from that data.  Go back and look at the proposition and the claim.  Apply your knowledge of electronics to see if your knowledge of electronics matches the data you have accumulated.  Figure out how the device actually works in real life as opposed to the claims made by some YouTube dude that you don't even know.

I honestly suspect that for some YouTube guys the thrill for them is making a fake clip, and then the real thrill is watching the people debate it and then build replications and all that stuff.  That might be like the ultimate mental masturbation for them - watching people replicate their fake stuff.  It gives them a feeling of power.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2014, 04:16:38 AM
Yep - there are no armchair quarterbacks either :)

Are you talking about me?  If you are, what's wrong with an armchair quarterback if they say stuff that makes sense and adds value?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ketone on December 30, 2014, 05:14:10 AM
Are you talking about me?  If you are, what's wrong with an armchair quarterback if they say stuff that makes sense and adds value?

Because they don't get their hands dirty and regurgitate what they "know so well" and derail unconventional thought which stifles the creative process.
With that being said,it was not directed at you MH ,it was my interpretation of an Armchair Quarterback :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 30, 2014, 05:26:10 AM
Small update

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5TkAq9DJPY
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 30, 2014, 05:54:31 AM
Lumen,

Taking into context my previous posting, you are just clutching at straws.  There is no point in trying some "new flux workaround" when the basic design as it exists right now redirects flux already.  In my opinion there is just no point in going in the directions you are suggesting.

I have another generic comment for your consideration.  When you talk about modifying builds or circuits, if your description is longer than three sentences then forget it.  Nobody can follow a full-paragraph description of a modification to a build or a schematic in their heads.  But they are usually too polite to tell the other person that.  What you end up with is a bullshit conversation where both parties are generating words, but neither party really and truly understands the other party.  Sometimes you see whole threads talking about new pick-up coil positions, and new circuitry, and that "that will generate a big spike here" and "that should recharge your source battery" and it's all bullshit.

Seriously, if it takes more than three sentences then you need a drawing or a schematic preferably with a timing diagram.  I read your prose but I simply don't have a 3D CAD program running in my head.  Please don't be offended, I am just being honest with you.

MileHigh
MileHigh:
I do know that a person can have a concept vividly in their head but are unable to describe it in a way that doesn't require much thought to grasp by others.
So I do understand the problem in conveying thoughts.
 
Now "clutching at straws" is something I just don't do. I have given it some thought and applied the next logical design change given the data.
You can't actually believe that one flux path is just the same as any other.  This design has produced an anomaly from the start that one must consider regardless of any other problems with the design. Why does the prime mover load drop when the coil is loaded? This is not the same as just any flux path in a conventional generator where the output load always causes additional input load.
 
It seems clear that somehow Lenz is reducing the input requirement since loading the coil can only produce Lenz. I believe this should be considered different than just any flux path.
 
Luc:
Good job, the X cores work better!
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2014, 06:46:25 AM
Lumen:

Yes one flux path is pretty much the same as any other in the sense that the pick-up coil doesn't care what mechanism was used to change the flux.

Think about this:  You have a cylindrical magnet one inch from a pick up coil that is driving a load.  They are both on the same axis:

[magnet] ------ [coil] -->(load)

The magnet moves right and left (closer and further away) from the stationary coil.  When you move the magnet you feel Lenz drag.

Now, keep the magnet and the coil fixed in place.  Take a piece of ferrite and move it up and down in the gap between the magnet and the coil.  When the ferrite is between the magnet and the coil obviously more flux flows through the coil.  When you move the ferrite up an down you will feel Lenz drag.

In the final analysis they are both the same thing.

Quote
This design has produced an anomaly from the start that one must consider regardless of any other problems with the design. Why does the prime mover load drop when the coil is loaded?

For starters, there are countless experiments on YouTube for all sorts of setups where the input power to the prime mover drops when you add a load to the output of the device under test.

You actually don't have any evidence for an anomaly.  I already stated one possible explanation for the prime mover power consumption dropping when the load is connected to the coil.

The main reason for the lack of evidence is that most of the input power to the prime mover becomes waste heat.  If you add the load resistor to the generator coil, and for whatever reason the waste heat production from the prime mover decreases, then it would explain the input power drop when the generator coil drives a load.  It's as simple as that.

All of your data is "drowning" in the waste heat production of the prime mover.  The waste heat production can be 10 or 20 times greater than the useful power going to the load.  You don't know what the waste heat production is for a given test.

This is the nature of the setup with the drill press.  So you guys collectively have the problem of trying to figure out how to deal with all of this waste heat production and finding some meaningful way to extract the data that you can work with.  If you can't do that, then you are just staring at some meaningless numbers.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2014, 07:17:58 AM
I just noticed the waveform in Luc's first clip that he also showed in his new second clip and I attached it here.  Sorry I could not rotate the image to make it look better because my PC has no software loaded to do that quickly and easily.

I think that it's the open circuit waveform for the pick-up coil.  It's a pretty unusual waveform.  Has anybody tried to explain it or understand it?  I assume no because it's very early in the process for Luc's build.

Here is the important point:  You have to explain that waveform if you want to understand what is going on.  There is no such thing as looking at an unusual waveform and saying nothing.  If you don't even attempt to understand that waveform then what's the point?

I know, I am expecting a true investigation to take place among you guys that are truly interested in this project and the reality on the forums is this almost never happens.

How much you get out of this investigation and how much you learn is all up to you.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2014, 07:26:37 AM
Because they don't get their hands dirty and regurgitate what they "know so well" and derail unconventional thought which stifles the creative process.
With that being said,it was not directed at you MH ,it was my interpretation of an Armchair Quarterback :)

Ha ha.... I get the impression that you are suggesting I am guilty of the above nonetheless.  Right now a lot of the creative process and unconventional thought is actually coming from yours truly.

The truth is I am about to back out.  Let's see what the boys can do for themselves.  I have outlined a lot of critical issues for their consideration.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 30, 2014, 08:03:56 AM
I would think the attached is the positions
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 30, 2014, 01:28:29 PM
MileHigh:
 
Now "clutching at straws" is something I just don't do. I have given it some thought and applied the next logical design change given the data.
You can't actually believe that one flux path is just the same as any other.  This design has produced an anomaly from the start that one must consider regardless of any other problems with the design. Why does the prime mover load drop when the coil is loaded? This is not the same as just any flux path in a conventional generator where the output load always causes additional input load.
 
It seems clear that somehow Lenz is reducing the input requirement since loading the coil can only produce Lenz. I believe this should be considered different than just any flux path.
 
Luc:
Good job, the X cores work better!
Your doing nothing more than driving your car around with the hand brake on. All of a sudden you take the hand brake off,the car picks up speed without pushing the accelerator any further down,and you think you have some how gained some free energy.The load is already on the prime mover,and when you draw power from the coil,you are releaving the stresses that have already been present in the core material-you just took the hand brake off.Luc him self has already pointed out that the drill press motor draws 10 watt's more(i think it was that much)when he places the core under the rotating flux gate yoke.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 30, 2014, 01:39:06 PM
Luc
What you need to achieve is very simple,and no need for all these exotic test's that some are saying is needed. You simply need to be able to draw that 5 watts from your DUT,and have the drill press motor draw the same amount of power as it dose when the DUT is not present. This will show a true no load situation. Now,if you can then get the drill press motor to draw less when you activate the P/out on your DUT,then you know you have a motoring effect happening there.

I am going to hold off for a while in posting my !no load generator!,but when the time is right,i will post it here. I have found a way to create this flux gate using an electromagnet insted of rotating chunks of iron/steel. I still have a laminated steel rotor,but that is to carry the secondary magnetic field.The down side is,i am not getting 5 watt's out,more like 1.5 watt's,but the good stuff happens on the input side. 8)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 30, 2014, 02:31:15 PM
Just a quick update, my prime mover is down to 5 watts. Keeping the rotor irons magnetically separated was key. The clogging is a lot higher but when it gets up to speed the current draw is halved. Working on coil arrangements now
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: tinman on December 30, 2014, 03:07:08 PM
Just a quick update, my prime mover is down to 5 watts. Keeping the rotor irons magnetically separated was key. The clogging is a lot higher but when it gets up to speed the current draw is halved. Working on coil arrangements now
Jim
All electric motors will drop in current draw once they get up to speed when they have a load applied to them from startup. Even without a load,an electric motor will draw a lot of current during start up. The current draw will drop as the rpm increases-->unless they have what is called a soft start.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2014, 03:27:02 PM
Luc
What you need to achieve is very simple,and no need for all these exotic test's that some are saying is needed. You simply need to be able to draw that 5 watts from your DUT,and have the drill press motor draw the same amount of power as it dose when the DUT is not present. This will show a true no load situation. Now,if you can then get the drill press motor to draw less when you activate the P/out on your DUT,then you know you have a motoring effect happening there.

In theory it's easily possible for 5 watts to be output by the DUT while the drill press draws the same amount of power.  So that will prove nothing.  Likewise, it's also possible for the drill press to draw less power when the DUT is outputting power.

How is this possible?

As you have the DUT connected to the drill press, you start to oil the two main bearings for the drive motor and the four main bearings for the pulley.  Voila, the power being drawn by the drill press will go down while the DUT outputs power into a load.

So the real answer is that it's NOT simple.  The efficiency of the drill press in terms of electrical power in to mechanical power out at the drill chuck is an unknown.  You cannot generate any useful data without somehow accounting for or working around the unknown efficiency of the drill press.  It's the elephant in the room.

I previously stated that a flywheel would eliminate most of these problems but the test setup uses a drill press and not a flywheel.  Knowing this, can the people on this thread and the EF thread come up with any ideas or solutions to turn the drill press into a useful test bed that can generate useful data?

Like I said before, this is a place to discuss and analyze energy systems.  So you have no choice but to try to properly analyze this energy system if you want to get it right.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: lumen on December 30, 2014, 05:01:11 PM
Your doing nothing more than driving your car around with the hand brake on. All of a sudden you take the hand brake off,the car picks up speed without pushing the accelerator any further down,and you think you have some how gained some free energy.The load is already on the prime mover,and when you draw power from the coil,you are releaving the stresses that have already been present in the core material-you just took the hand brake off.Luc him self has already pointed out that the drill press motor draws 10 watt's more(i think it was that much)when he places the core under the rotating flux gate yoke.

tinman:
 
I understand what you are saying but I believe you don't get what you just said.
If I'm driving around with my handbrake on and it's taking energy then when I push the floor brake I move easier.
That is what you have. Everyone is lost in the fact that it takes power to run and simply moves past the part where it takes less power when you extract energy from it.
 
 
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 30, 2014, 05:20:35 PM
I have designed so simpler device to experiment.
lumen also can do it :D
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 30, 2014, 05:36:57 PM
above design also produce motor effect while generating electricity with diode in series with generating coil.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 30, 2014, 06:07:15 PM
I have designed so simpler device to experiment.
lumen also can do it :D

The magnets have to be stationary and the rotor is switching magnetic field. In your design the magnets are moving which are no different than in conventional generator.

Cheers!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 30, 2014, 10:15:16 PM
Jim
All electric motors will drop in current draw once they get up to speed when they have a load applied to them from startup. Even without a load,an electric motor will draw a lot of current during start up. The current draw will drop as the rpm increases-->unless they have what is called a soft start.
Yep I know, the point I was trying to make is that I can get the same output by keeping the rotors irons magnetically isolated from each other but it greatly reduces consumption power
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 30, 2014, 10:21:09 PM
Posted at OUR Forum

Hi Luc,

I wonder - is it magnetic attraction causing initial 83 watts to be used in your setup?
If the drill motor is causing that I bet it is best time to exchange it to smaller pulse motor which will consume less than 10 watts if magnetic attraction is not so big..

Also I have suspicion about geometry there - if the C core is passing magnet by approaching and leaving it directly on N/S poles vectors the magnetic force is largest.
To see what I am about get two very strong magnets, snap them together and try to separate them apart. You will see how much force is required just to do that. And if you start sliding them on the side the force required to separate them is much smaller.

Cheers!


Hi T-1000,

I made 3 videos to demonstrate and answer your questions.

First video is to explore magnetic cogging on the cores. As far as I'm concerned, the pull and push forces are equal so we should be breaking even when rotating the C core over the I cores less Eddy current losses in the cores.
Video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDR0lfv4BgU

Now lets explore the power needed just to turn the drill press and C core rotor.
Video Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXkNJZ9K_Ks

So with no I cores present we need       54 Watts
and with I cores present we needs         87 Watts

So we have 33 Watts needed to turn the C cores over the I cores.
Here is a video demo where I load the coil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LiYwiDrbMM

So we can get 5.3 Watts out of the coil plus we need to consider the coils DC Resistance of 1.3 Ohms which may represent another 4 Watts. So we can get 9.3 watts out plus the coil under load assists the rotor and drops the prime mover power by 4 Watts.

So we can account for 13.3 Watts! ... so where is the rest of the power going? 
There are other losses involve which we need to consider when using Iron or soft steel laminations. I think we may need to consider Iron Powder Cores! (keep in mind this is not hard like ferrite cores)
TinMan has made a great video to demonstrate steel lamination losses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtB_7RkEg

Share your thoughts.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 30, 2014, 10:36:31 PM
Luc
What you need to achieve is very simple,and no need for all these exotic test's that some are saying is needed. You simply need to be able to draw that 5 watts from your DUT,and have the drill press motor draw the same amount of power as it dose when the DUT is not present. This will show a true no load situation. Now,if you can then get the drill press motor to draw less when you activate the P/out on your DUT,then you know you have a motoring effect happening there.

I am going to hold off for a while in posting my !no load generator!,but when the time is right,i will post it here. I have found a way to create this flux gate using an electromagnet insted of rotating chunks of iron/steel. I still have a laminated steel rotor,but that is to carry the secondary magnetic field.The down side is,i am not getting 5 watt's out,more like 1.5 watt's,but the good stuff happens on the input side. 8)

Yes Brad, I agree and is how I have been seeing it for some time now and why when I first shared my test device in this topic I said not to jump to conclusions until I'm satisfied with the input power.

I have some Large Iron Powder E core coming to me soon and that will be the make or break of this device.

I'm happy you're experimenting with an electromagnet instead of the PM as that may be the way to correctly make this device work as that was the way the originator of this topic did it.
Interestingly I was going to suggest that yesterday but forgot, so you beat me to it mate!
I was thinking the electromagnet could be connected to the output coil but have an AC cap in series which could give it a phase shift for the timing to work out?
There are so many things that still need to be tested.

Thanks for sharing mate!

Luc

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 30, 2014, 10:53:47 PM
I have designed so simpler device to experiment.
lumen also can do it :D

I like this very much!

Thank you thngr for taking the time to share this!
Electromagnets are also a good idea!!!

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2014, 11:14:45 PM
Luc:

Brad is way off the mark like I explained in my posting to him.

The power dissipated in the coil resistance is not 4 watts.  I leave it to you to correct yourself or one of your peers on this thread or on the EF forum thread to correct you.  I view this failure of people to correct each other on the forums as an almost kind of malignant sickness.  Errors are made, nobody says anything, and then they propagate to the next steps in the process, screwing things up.  Somebody needs to fix this error.

When you made the wattage reading for the free spinning C-cores (no contact with the I-core) was the RPM about the same as when you did the other two tests?  If not, don't you think you might get a better baseline for comparison if the RPM is the same?

One more time, your manipulations with your power numbers don't really make sense to me.

Here is the challenge for you, and for all of your peers in this thread and on the EF thread.

Where is the input power from the mains going for your various tests?   Your Kill-a-Watt power reading is telling you how much power the entire system is drawing from the mains.  So where is that power going within the system?  Completely forget what you just stated a few postings ago with your additions/subtractions, etc, and start from scratch.

So that's my challenge to you and to all interested parties on both forums.  Wipe the slate clean and start over.  Can you make an estimate of where the input power is going?  Even if you have to make some assumptions, that's fine.

All of you please put your thinking caps on and try to figure this out.  Luc just did a new round of tests for the new configuration and some data was recorded.  With that data can you try to make an estimate of where the mains input power is going?

That's really what your testing is all about.  Where is the power going?

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 30, 2014, 11:33:21 PM
The magnets have to be stationary and the rotor is switching magnetic field. In your design the magnets are moving which are no different than in conventional generator.

Cheers!

Humm :-\ ...  where do you see the electromagnets are moving?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 30, 2014, 11:39:05 PM
Looks like you're spinning your wheels MileHigh... no one cares!

They are searching for perpetual motion and will perpetually continue till they get there without obeying the Laws of Science.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 30, 2014, 11:47:21 PM
Really learning a lot from everyone's builds, videos and designs. Thanks
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on December 31, 2014, 12:02:38 AM
Looks like you're spinning your wheels MileHigh... no one cares!

They are searching for perpetual motion and will perpetually continue till they get there without obeying the Laws of Science.

Regards

Luc

On the contrary Luc, anybody that has been following this thread cares about understanding what your setup is doing, and what the YouTube guy's setup is doing.  The forum participants and readers care about the overall generic issue.

You seem to be suggesting that your setup may not obey the laws of science?  That would be unwise and actually ridiculous.  Your setup is 100% conventional.  You are just copping out, something we have seen before.  Perhaps between the group here and the group on EF collectively you will be able to make some sense about what your tests are really doing.

Correct the problem with the power dissipation in the generator coil and then try to account for where the power is going.  That's a bare minimum that collectively you should be able to do together - no putting your heads in the sand.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 31, 2014, 12:47:50 AM
The magnets have to be stationary and the rotor is switching magnetic field. In your design the magnets are moving which are no different than in conventional generator.

Cheers!


to t1000
you are not seeing it  ;)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on December 31, 2014, 01:02:38 AM
to luc
I'm looking forward to your experiments and appreciate your efforts also. (I think you need two sperate coils. diode also needed to sperate the effect if it is the time while inducing magnetic field to coil or while it is collapsing)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on December 31, 2014, 01:03:45 AM
On the contrary Luc, anybody that has been following this thread cares about understanding what your setup is doing, and what the YouTube guy's setup is doing.  The forum participants and readers care about the overall generic issue.

You seem to be suggesting that your setup may not obey the laws of science?  That would be unwise and actually ridiculous.  Your setup is 100% conventional.  You are just copping out, something we have seen before.  Perhaps between the group here and the group on EF collectively you will be able to make some sense about what your tests are really doing.

Correct the problem with the power dissipation in the generator coil and then try to account for where the power is going.  That's a bare minimum that collectively you should be able to do together - no putting your heads in the sand.

MileHigh

I'm joking with you man!... I've made no claims and viewers decision is advised ;)

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on December 31, 2014, 04:31:12 AM
Humm :-\ ...  where do you see the electromagnets are moving?

I might missinterpretated the simpl-ton syahputra device.jpg (http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/dlattach/attach/145616/image//) just the the rotor will be moving in direction from coil to electromagnet or otherwise. This will result extending or shrinking magnetic pole into direction of coil with movement of rotor in same axis. The Lenz force will be on same axis too. And the design in first page has it on 90 degrees instead...
If you rotate coil and electromagnet on 90 degrees on radial axis from the center then the rotor movement will start matching design we are after.

Cheers!

P.S> Thanks for videos, seems your drill motor really need replacement to more economic one and the cores have eddy currents in losses as well. Also to smooth out movement you will need flywheel for kinetic capacitor role there as well.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on December 31, 2014, 01:43:05 PM
I have designed so simpler device to experiment.
lumen also can do it :D
Thanks things, have you thought about the lines of flux if the iron roto poles were magnetically isolated?
Thanks great design.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on January 01, 2015, 04:24:00 PM
Thanks things, have you thought about the lines of flux if the iron roto poles were magnetically isolated?
Thanks great design.


in my old designs I did try to make isolation(it was hard tho) then I realise it was not necessary from now on it will be simpler. But I have doubt about extra cut on design if it is sufficient enough to break magnetic field to transfer it through rator may be it needs to be wider..
But wider it becames effciency of the electro magnet get worse.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on January 01, 2015, 06:52:20 PM
I realize that OUR is also following this.  So that means that there are three forums that have threads and active participants following this proposition and following Luc's build.

Luc has built his device, and what remains is for it to be tested.  That does not mean modifying it again, or talking on and on about different materials for the C-core or whatever.

Look guys, there is no point in building anything if you don't know how to test it or what to do to test it.  I am challenging all of you, the next time anybody wants to build something, that you discuss a test plan and how to actually do the testing before the thing is even built.

But the main challenge for all of you right now is this:  What should Luc do to test his existing device?

Enough of the bullshit talk, what concrete suggestions can you guys make for Luc?  Don't tell me that on a forum for researching into alternative energy solutions that somebody builds a replication of something and nobody knows how to test the device.  If that's the case then there was no point in building it in the first place.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on January 01, 2015, 07:25:13 PM
There is a follow-up issue to mention.  Again, this goes out to all of the participants on all three forums.

You are discussing an alternative type of generator that is allegedly an over unity device.  It's a generator, and that means that it has an output voltage waveform.  This can be a no-load voltage waveform, or a voltage waveform under load.  Looking at the no-load voltage waveform is a good start.  Understanding this waveform and the voltages it generates over the 360 degree sweep of the C-core rotor is of critical importance in understanding the device and where it is outputting power in the 360 degree cycle.

I raised the issue, and Luc took a first crack at understanding the waveform.  I seriously doubt that it is 100% correct, but it may have some merit.  However, the only thing we have so far is the single marked-up graphic from Luc and it is poorly documented and the documentation is incomplete.

So, we have a generator that outputs a voltage waveform and nobody bothers discussing it?  Nobody tries to understand it?   For all of you on all three threads, this is totally unacceptable.  If you want to understand Luc's build then you absolutely must understand the output waveform.

For all of the interested followers on all three forums:  What ideas do you have about the waveform?  What suggestions can you give to Luc so that working as a team together you can understand the output waveform?

This is another elephant in the room that any normal investigation would have to deal with.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on January 01, 2015, 10:35:17 PM
Mm interesting thingr. Thanks for that. I'm using the stator of an old three phase servo for my next build. So it won't accomoda your design but I look forward to seeing yours built.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: prochiro on January 02, 2015, 12:14:07 AM
LUC

Just going over your video again and two things came across my mind. 

1. After putting on the extra two beams and watching the cogging yet, I think if instead of four beams you went to eight so the incoming will directly counter influence the outgoing. The angles work out with eight.

2. If you went back to two or even kept the four and they were more like the shape of a quarter pipe (iron) you would spread out the push and pull more like in the feature film. Each quarter piece would have a small gap between the next and that small gap would not offer as much cogging also. Looking at the feature film, the four irons were all magnetically separate from each other but also vary close to each other.

Just an observation.   
Prochiro
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on January 02, 2015, 12:35:07 AM
some one said about interpretation of signals:
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on January 02, 2015, 12:57:48 AM
Thngr:

Sorry, but putting up some graphics showing some waveforms and not explaining the waveforms and why they are like they are is totally meaningless.  Why are you even showing the first graphic?  If you are attempting to draw a comparison between your graphic with the two unexplained waveforms and Luc's scope capture shot, the fact is that they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Your posting is a fail.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on January 02, 2015, 01:01:10 AM
Hi everyone,

here is a video update of what I've been working on for the past 2 days

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnTImIQlAms

Stay tuned for the test results

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on January 02, 2015, 01:05:33 AM
ramadan syahputra's generator produces two signals at a time one is mains frequency and the other is in second harmonic so both of them makes so unusual wave form as I've said obove picture.(there must be inverter to transform it to 50Hz. mains in order to connect his generator to AC. induction motor!)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on January 02, 2015, 01:13:17 AM
Luc is the hero of us.
I am trying to do my design as well but he is far had of me, but I like being behind :D
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on January 02, 2015, 01:42:17 AM
Thngr:

Sorry, but putting up some graphics showing some waveforms and not explaining the waveforms and why they are like they are is totally meaningless.  Why are you even showing the first graphic?  If you are attempting to draw a comparison between your graphic with the two unexplained waveforms and Luc's scope capture shot, the fact is that they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Your posting is a fail.

MileHigh


I'm sorry MileHigh if I've offended you.
It is so clear to me why I did not explain the picture. I did see some relation with square wave and the generator of us and share with you. I thought if we made the setup too perfect than output will be square wave.(these are my fantasies..)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on January 02, 2015, 02:38:51 AM
I am not offended.

If you are showing a waveform for any project you are working on, you must, 1) show exactly how and where you are measuring that waveform, and 2) explain every single component of the waveform and why it exists.

This is the real world of electronics.  If you have a new design for a generator, or a new design for a circuit, you must explain yourself.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on January 02, 2015, 04:29:23 AM
Hi everyone,

here is a video update of what I've been working on for the past 2 days

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnTImIQlAms (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnTImIQlAms)

Stay tuned for the test results

Luc
#imnotworthy


Bloody fantastic build bloke! Can't wait to see the results.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Lakes on January 02, 2015, 10:18:53 AM
What Jim says, nice build/test rig!, a lot of work!, hope you get some good results.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ariovaldo on January 02, 2015, 06:12:20 PM
In my next project will try to replicate the "The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2".
The project will consist:
Inside:- Stator with 18 coils.
Middle:- Rotor made of steel with slots ( I still working ). The lathe part was done but I need to machine the slots.
Outside :- The magnets array, with ceramic or neodymium.


Check the pictures..
Ariovaldo
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gyulasun on January 02, 2015, 09:13:05 PM
Hi Arivaldo,

Would you mind editing your picture to have less pixel number? Now it has 1710x924 and the optimum horizontal size which does not extend the forum thread width to the right hand side as much as that is about 900x (now you have 1710x).
You can easily reduce your picture size by using Window built-in Paint or any other picture editor which can show size in pixels.
In this picture you have left too much empty white space around the actual photos, so it is easy to remove it in Paint for instance by rectangularly select the photos in the middle and copy and paste it into a new picture. I can do it for you if you wish.

Gyula
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on January 03, 2015, 11:07:39 AM
So many words have spoken yesterday there must be said new ones to day! (has not something be changed today?)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gyulasun on January 03, 2015, 11:45:15 AM

In my next project will try to replicate the "The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2".
The project will consist:
Inside:- Stator with 18 coils.
Middle:- Rotor made of steel with slots ( I still working ). The lathe part was done but I need to machine the slots.
Outside :- The magnets array, with ceramic or neodymium.


Check the pictures..
Ariovaldo



Hi Ariovaldo,

I hope you do not mind my uploading your picture in the correct size.

Gyula
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on January 03, 2015, 02:50:57 PM
Guys,

JLN and TinseKoala have already shown motors that don't manifest generator action (BEMF) - the ORBO and Orbette.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on January 03, 2015, 06:10:46 PM
Guys,

JLN and TinseKoala have already shown motors that don't manifest generator action (BEMF) - the ORBO and Orbette.


If you think so try to replicate than, but we have more than you have. Have a look from the beginning to this topic.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on January 03, 2015, 10:46:44 PM
Hi everyone,

a quick test of the thngr's simple build of Ramadan Device

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wP1GSLa_AY

Next I'm working on using the motors bushes and commutator to power the electromagnet coils.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on January 03, 2015, 11:41:24 PM
Luc:
I do not think they are some kind of sine wave as I suspected produces a square waves which couses broad spectrum of radio waves.(or it may be new discovery; perhaps gravity waves..) two years before I did calculate a gravity engine which uses 10N/watt reactionless drive uses only machanical parts and energy unlike rokets, but energy puring in wether it moves or not.(energy can be destroyed :D ) If we able to produce energy the oppsite effect may occur.(or it is only godzilla size Barkhausen effect couses mause to malfunction)

your electromagnet seems to very low voltage but much ampere. electromagnets need DC. and so many turns that fits the slot.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on January 04, 2015, 09:57:05 PM
Topic also has some interesting contributors over here.


http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/19851-topic-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning-9.html#post269294


thx
Chet
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Abt on January 04, 2015, 10:11:53 PM
Hi Luc
thank you for sharing your results, you are doing great work! I'm watching this thread for a good while now and see most constructive postings made by yorself. Keep going!
Abt
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: TinselKoala on January 04, 2015, 11:10:10 PM
Guys,

JLN and TinseKoala have already shown motors that don't manifest generator action (BEMF) - the ORBO and Orbette.
To be strictly correct... only the Orbette 2.0 has actually shown this effect. It is a Core Effect motor, it does not operate by electromagnetic attraction/repulsion. Orbette 1.0 used different configurations of toroids and I never tuned it in this way. I did not find Jean-Louis's demonstration convincing, although he may have succeeded as well.

Applied current to the carefully toroidally-wound coils causes a change in the magnetic permeability of the special core material ("square" loop hysteresis in the B-H curve), saturating it magnetically.  This change in permeability reduces the attraction of the core to permanent magnets, equally without regard to magnet _or current_ polarity. This allows the non-intuitive Core Effect which drives the motor: the magnets in the rotor are attracted to the toroidal cores when the coil current is _off_ and are less attracted when the current is _on_. Again, equally without regard to either magnet or current polarity. So the Core Effect drives the rotor by allowing full strength, non-powered, attraction as the rotor magnets approach the toroid, and _reducing_ the pull back attraction as the magnets pass "bottom dead center" and begin moving away from the toroid.

This Core Effect allows one carefully to position the toroidal coil-core assembly near a double row rotor so that the fields from the magnets "null" at the position of the core assembly, hence virtually eliminating any generator effect that is normally caused by moving magnets past a coil. The unique thing about the Core Effect is that this does not affect the actual magnetic attraction to the ferrite toroid core! So it is possible to tune the motor so that no normal generator effect occurs, but the rotor is still driven strongly by the Core Effect change in permeability.

Steorn even claimed that the rotor magnets in the approach to the cores actually helped drive the cores to saturation, enabling very small currents to "finish the job" and produce the full Core Effect. I wasn't able to confirm this with my equipment and materials, but it seems likely that it is true. What isn't true is Steorn's claim that this process produced overunity performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90rMGmskqXQ

However, this is a very different thing from "delayed or no Lenz effect" or the production of CEMF by current supplied to the coils. These effects happen whenever coils are supplied with (pulsed) current. The Orbette toroids still produce an inductive backspike when rapidly switched off -- which happens at a time when the magnets are maximally distant from the core!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on January 05, 2015, 01:54:48 PM
To be strictly correct... only the Orbette 2.0 has actually shown this effect. It is a Core Effect motor, it does not operate by electromagnetic attraction/repulsion.
Yes, it operates by more attraction/less attraction of a hard magnet to soft ferrite.  It is a 3D effect.
This is different (and more interesting IMO) than other pulse motors in this thread that exhibit a high yawn factor.

Applied current to the carefully toroidally-wound coils causes a change in the magnetic permeability of the special core material ("square" loop hysteresis in the B-H curve), saturating it magnetically. 
I don't think that saturation of the magnetic domain polarization in one direction is necessary to limit the polarization freedom in an orthogonal direction (a 3D effect).  When domains are polarized in one direction then they cannot easily polarize in a perpendicular direction at the same time and that lack of freedom decreases their response to external field in that perpendicular direction (this response manifests itself as permeability).

This change in permeability reduces the attraction of the core to permanent magnets, equally without regard to magnet _or current_ polarity. This allows the non-intuitive Core Effect which drives the motor: the magnets in the rotor are attracted to the toroidal cores when the coil current is _off_ and are less attracted when the current is _on_. Again, equally without regard to either magnet or current polarity. So the Core Effect drives the rotor by allowing full strength, non-powered, attraction as the rotor magnets approach the toroid, and _reducing_ the pull back attraction as the magnets pass "bottom dead center" and begin moving away from the toroid.
Yup.  I would add that this change in permeability is anisotropic and ideally its maximal decrease occurs in the direction parallel to the magnetic flux coming from the permanent magnets.

This Core Effect allows one carefully to position the toroidal coil-core assembly near a double row rotor so that the fields from the magnets "null" at the position of the core assembly, hence virtually eliminating any generator effect that is normally caused by moving magnets past a coil. The unique thing about the Core Effect is that this does not affect the actual magnetic attraction to the ferrite toroid core! So it is possible to tune the motor so that no normal generator effect occurs, but the rotor is still driven strongly by the Core Effect change in permeability.
Even more so if the core is wound with even number of back-and-forth layers so the circumferential current is cancelled and the only current remaining is all parallel to the flux coming from the parallel magnets ...which would make the H vector (MMF) very perpendicular to the flux coming from the magnets.

Steorn even claimed that the rotor magnets in the approach to the cores actually helped drive the cores to saturation, enabling very small currents to "finish the job" and produce the full Core Effect.
That makes sense because of vector addition.
Any flux perpendicular to the MMF vector (vector tangent to the circumference of the toroid) will turn the resultant vector sum away from this tangent but that vector will be longer (have larger absolute value, which is limited by the maximum B saturation level)

What isn't true is Steorn's claim that this process produced overunity performance.
Yes, they seem to made a scoposcopy error in their claim of that.

However, this is a very different thing from "delayed or no Lenz effect" or the production of CEMF by current supplied to the coils. These effects happen whenever coils are supplied with (pulsed) current.
The Orbette toroids still produce an inductive backspike when rapidly switched off -- which happens at a time when the magnets are maximally distant from the core!
Because the Orbette toroids still store magnetic field energy and this  energy has to dissipate somehow when the toroid winding becomes open.  You could recover this energy into a capacitor and recycle it for the next cycle.

Theoretically the energy stored in the coil is proportional to the polarization of the ferrite along the coil's magnetization axis (parallel to the circumference for a toroidal core) plus its MMF.

See the animated GIF below.
Note: Because this forum's software mauled the GIF file now it does not move/animate (look, the size 92.62 kB is displayed next to it, but only 5kB is getting downloaded!!!), to fix this click on the ZIP file (http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/dlattach/attach/145880/), unpack it and view the undamaged gif file inside it in a browser.

P.S.
Somebody who knows Stefan Hartman, please tell him about this problem with corrupted GIF files.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on January 05, 2015, 10:38:03 PM

This is different (and more interesting IMO) than other pulse motors in this thread that exhibit a high yawn factor.



Maybe you should go and post in the Orbo thread then
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on January 05, 2015, 10:55:17 PM
Hi everyone,

I made a new version of lumen's Ramadan variation which I call Thane Heins Ramadan Bitt version.

The good news is high current coils can be used and the power dissipated in the core has dropped from 33 Watts (first lumen version) to 10 Watts.
We are also delivering 5 Watts to our 1 Ohm load without the prime mover input power increase.

Link to test video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LK2C4qBY1Y

I would say this is encouraging and further testing and use of better cores like Iron Powder would be on the list to do.

Share your thought if you wish

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on January 05, 2015, 11:21:41 PM
Very interesting work Luc. 5 Watts would run my prime mover :) Your frequency at 104hz is surprising low for that output. Any idea of the actual RPM?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on January 05, 2015, 11:50:55 PM
Very interesting work Luc. 5 Watts would run my prime mover :) Your frequency at 104hz is surprising low for that output. Any idea of the actual RPM?

Thanks Jimboot

the RPM is in the range of 1,610 RPM

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on January 05, 2015, 11:56:59 PM
My new Iron Powder Cores came in just now!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on January 06, 2015, 12:34:14 AM
Luc:

I made many comments and some suggestions and challenges the last time you worked with the drill press setup.  The comments also apply here, so I am not going to get involved one more time, I will just cover some points here and leave it at that.  I noticed that there was not much forthcoming from you about what I said, and from the "team" of people interested in this stuff across three threads on three forums there was not a single suggestion on how to go forward and improve your analysis of the setup and the testing.  I find that really disappointing and I wonder if there are any "energy researchers" here as opposed to simply passive observers that don't have much to say and apparently no desire to push themselves to do better and start thinking to help you out.

I am going to throw in some new ideas and if nothing comes of it, so be it.

Let's start with the energy analysis of this setup, and it also applies to the previous setup.

The input power measured by the Kill-a-Watt meter only goes to three places.   First of all the drill press produces waste heat and rotational mechanical power.  You don't know what the mechanical power is because you don't know what the efficiency of the drill press is under your particular test conditions.  Then the mechanical power goes into your generator, and that becomes waste heat and useful output.  In this case we will call the useful output the power dissipated in the load resistor and the resistance of the drive coil or coils.

Input power from Kill-a-Watt meter becomes this:

1) Drill press waste heat
2) Generator waste heat
3) Generator useful output (power in generator coil(s) and power in load resistor.)

Now, when you make you Kill-a-Watt measurements for free running, engaged but no load resistor, and engaged and driving the load resistor, etc., you have to try to put the numbers into 1, 2, and 3 above.   You may have to make some guesses or you can draw some inferences, but that's the way you do it.  In your previous rounds of testing you make additions and subtractions of Kill-a-Watt meter readings and it was mostly all junk.  Saying, "I think 10 watts are being used in the core and we have to try another core" is also highly suspect in my opinion and you have no hard data to draw that conclusion.

Watch, let's redo the list and use "0" for the Kill-a-Watt meter reading:

0) Kill-a-Watt meter reading
1) Drill press waste heat
2) Generator waste heat
3) Generator useful output (power in generator coil(s) and power in load resistor.)

Whenever you do a test you know item #0, and you can measure item #3.   So you already know two of your four variables every time you do a test.  With a few tests and making some reasonable assumptions and inferences you can at least get a handle on all four variables.  That's what I was hoping the "team" would try to figure out but there was disappointingly nothing coming forth from anybody.

You are still not factoring in the power dissipated in the generator coil or coils and you have to if you want to understand where the power is going.  I pushed you and the "team" on this and nobody had anything to say.  You made an estimate instead of doing a calculation which was wrong.  If you don't know how to do the calculation then work on that problem with your team.  You guys can't be spoon-fed all the time.

As far as your new setup goes, I find it very strange.  The reason I find it very strange is because I am assuming that the magnet on the drill press table is vertically polarized.  If that's the case, it makes the drill press table itself a big "south" and the two arms of the MOT core attached to the top of the magnet a set of "norths."  That does not make any sense relative to the basis for all of the testing, which was to redirect flux back and forth with alternating polarities through a coil with the rotating C-core.

From what it looks like to me, when one of the C-cores is aligned with the MOT core, then flux can flow into the C-core and then through the air and back to the drill press table.  It's also possible that you have flux passing through the entire drill press itself, which would be very bizarre.   If you wrapped a coil around the main vertical cylindrical shaft of the drill press you could find out with your scope.

Finally, you have been at this for years now so why are you calling the waveform on your scope display a "sine wave."  It doesn't even remotely resemble a sine wave.

Good luck with your testing.  One thing I can tell you from pure gut feel, is that all three configurations you have tested so far are not even remotely as efficient as a small commercial off the shelf generator or motor-generator.   This is just another wild goose chase instigated by that YouTube guy.

MileHigh
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on January 06, 2015, 12:39:37 AM
Announcement:
I have done my experiments on my design. not very good results I am afraid. (7 volts and not so much ampere to run my genemotor concept)I am working on where I had failed. soon I will come with a new design. (Do not cut any cores)
I apologize to everyone to share my half baked ideas.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on January 06, 2015, 12:40:42 AM
Talk about timing Luc! LOL.


That's nice and slow for that output. Your build is a really great lateral shift of the concept. I'm already redesigning mine in my head.  ;D
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on January 06, 2015, 12:54:39 AM
Announcement:
I have done my experiments on my design. not very good results I am afraid. (7 volts and not so much ampere to run my genemotor concept)I am working on where I had failed. soon I will come with a new design. (Do not cut any cores)
I apologize to everyone to share my half baked ideas.
Thanks for your ideas Thngr. No need to apologise :)
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on January 06, 2015, 01:44:57 AM
Here is a quick update of the next logical test of having both N - S poles on the fixed core.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h-MTjJ44v8
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on January 06, 2015, 02:17:07 AM
Here is a quick update of the next logical test of having both N - S poles on the fixed core.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h-MTjJ44v8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h-MTjJ44v8)

I guess that you changed the configuration after you read my posting.  It's not going to hurt you to just be real and truthful.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: NoBull on January 06, 2015, 02:43:15 AM
@MileHigh

Where do you get the energy to educate ungrateful people ?
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on January 06, 2015, 03:09:04 AM
@MileHigh

Where do you get the energy to educate ungrateful people ?

It comes in waves!  I may go silent for a while and then come back and give it a try.  There is a desire to inform people, but an equally strong desire to have people interested in this subject matter to inform themselves.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on January 06, 2015, 03:36:34 AM
Here is a quick update of the next logical test of having both N - S poles on the fixed core.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h-MTjJ44v8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h-MTjJ44v8)
Thanks Luc, very interesting. Looking forward to seeing what difference the powdered cores will have.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: T-1000 on January 06, 2015, 11:33:54 PM
Here is a quick update of the next logical test of having both N - S poles on the fixed core.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h-MTjJ44v8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h-MTjJ44v8)
Hi Luc,

The coil with having load manifests the Lenz force along the lines of moving C core and introduces drag there which is not good when completing magnetic circuit with intention to have magnetic forces isolated from the prime mover.  The additional shorted coil introduces canceling induced alternating magnet so your drag lowers but the price for it is the lowered induction in both coils.
I think having alternating fux switching core between magnet and coil where core's movement is on 90 degrees to flux path between coil and magnet is still best approach and should be pursued to maximise induction effect with lowering drag much as possible...

Cheers!
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on January 07, 2015, 12:10:27 AM
MH
You are aware this is not Luc's first summer ?
He probably has disfigured fingers from all the Coils he wound at Ottawa University For Crankypants [Thane Heins].


 He has been playing with these configurations and spinny things for quite some time,  first as Thane's Lab assistant and also in years past.


To Assume He is being Untruthful somehow ....is at the very least Rude as well as quite arrogant..
Maybe you're not feeling the "Love" here in this particular case is because you "Assume" way to Much
or Little ...about Luc and his Life experience.




you want to be loved and appreciated go buy a Puppy...


Chet
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on January 07, 2015, 12:26:57 AM
I'm assuming that he read my posting, realized his first build was nonsensical, and then quickly changed it and did a new clip without saying anything.  So are you going to shoot me?  If you make a mistake and somebody corrects and helps you in the process just stating that shows some character.  You don't need to play the knight in shining armor there Chet.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: ramset on January 07, 2015, 12:44:47 AM
MH
One mans Nonsense is another mans experiment.
Luc is a very humble person and there are those reading here who may be unaware of his Life experience and  place weight in your "Assumptions, statements and innuendos.












Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on January 07, 2015, 04:18:22 AM
Hi Luc,
Nice going with them experimentings... ;D
I would say to remove the upper part and put in it's place a iron disk with holes... ;)
Anything from 3mm or more in thickness is enough to get the magnetic flux to switch... :)
Drill as many holes as the particular diameter can take...this way you have more switching going on per rpm and it should/might help to reduce the cogging also... ;)
You must leave enough spaces between the holes to get the switching going...i would say...holes and spaces in between...same diameter/lenght... ;)
If it's difficult to get a perfect iron disk a square one will do just fine aswell...it has to be as square as you can get it so not to have to much vibrations... :)

The same can be done with the bottom part to when you are satisfy with the upper part... 8)
It would look like a octopus...lots of legs with coils on them...as many you can get in the particular diameter of your setup... 8)
By having upper and bottom like this you will have a lot more switching going on in lots of coils... 8)
Maybe this configuration will help with the cogging or maybe not...lol... ::)
Cheers
In my exp the cogging is eased with more poles. 5watt out  :o :o Sweet! Need to get some big arse wire :)

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on January 07, 2015, 04:29:50 AM
ps
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2015, 04:42:50 AM

MH





you want to be loved and appreciated go buy a Puppy...


Chet

Chet, no need to EVER buy a puppy, or kitten for that matter.  Just make a trip to your local animal shelter and adopt one.  My new (well, new as of 3 years ago) lab assistant is a rescue kitty I saved from being killed, like his mother, brothers and sisters were.

I know this was just a small part of your post, but I could not help but jump in a recommend that folks never buy a pet when there are so many at shelters needing a good home.

Thank you,

Bill
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on January 07, 2015, 06:01:43 AM
I think MCR's idea is great!  Call it the 'magnetic strobescope motor' or 'the chopper.'  High frequency will give you more power output for sure.  Along with it will come more Lenz drag.  it could certainly be quite aerodynamic and that reduced air friction may compensate for any eddy current losses.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on January 07, 2015, 06:11:18 AM
Hi Luc,
Nice going with them experimentings... ;D
I would say to remove the upper part and put in it's place a iron disk with holes... ;)
Anything from 3mm or more in thickness is enough to get the magnetic flux to switch... :)
Drill as many holes as the particular diameter can take...this way you have more switching going on per rpm and it should/might help to reduce the cogging also... ;)
You must leave enough spaces between the holes to get the switching going...i would say...holes and spaces in between...same diameter/lenght... ;)
If it's difficult to get a perfect iron disk a square one will do just fine aswell...it has to be as square as you can get it so not to have to much vibrations... :)

The same can be done with the bottom part to when you are satisfy with the upper part... 8)
It would look like a octopus...lots of legs with coils on them...as many you can get in the particular diameter of your setup... 8)
By having upper and bottom like this you will have a lot more switching going on in lots of coils... 8)
Maybe this configuration will help with the cogging or maybe not...lol... ::)
Cheers

Thanks for your good suggestions MC

That's a good idea to have a disk with holes, just don't know how much Eddy currents will effect an Iron disk?

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: MileHigh on January 07, 2015, 06:16:10 PM
ps

PS my ass Jimboot.  Let's see you come up with five original ideas of your own to help Luc with his investigations.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Jimboot on January 07, 2015, 08:25:46 PM
Here's a really good presentation on the Gary effect. Looks like we need some variable reluctance core material.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3f8v9bjx7g

Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on January 07, 2015, 10:54:53 PM
Hi everyone,

I was doing tests yesterday with the Ramadan Bitt configuration trying to understand why each coil was behaving differently under load or shorted.
This may be of importance?
What I found was, only the left coil when shorted would cause the prime mover to drop in input power if the right coil was under a 1 Ohm load.
When I reversed the scenario, left coil on load and right coil shorted it would not cause the prime mover input power to drop.
So after more pocking around I found the left coil wire is shorted to the core, so the layer of protective tape I first added when winding the coil wire must of been compromised.

I made a video of it so we can have a reference of the effect before taking the coil off and rewinding them over better core protection.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEPo97MKpUg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEPo97MKpUg)

I will rewind the coils and re-test to see if I can get the same effect without the coil shorting to the core.

Stay tuned for the update.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: PhysicsProfessor on January 07, 2015, 11:26:20 PM
  Thanks for your work. Luc, and for the update.
-Steven
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: Kator01 on January 08, 2015, 01:25:32 AM
thanks Jimboot for this Video ( Dan Davidson)

found this here but quite expensive

http://www.abebooks.de/Proceedings-1990-International-Tesla-Symposium-Colorado/4076734668/bd (http://www.abebooks.de/Proceedings-1990-International-Tesla-Symposium-Colorado/4076734668/bd)

If someone has a copy of the proceedings or knows where to have free access to this document it would be
very helpful for further studies.

Kator01
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: gotoluc on January 08, 2015, 03:37:25 AM

Well, it now looks like the shorted coil to core was fooling me. I've re-isolated the cores and re-wound the coils and now it operates just like a normal Generator. So now shorting one coil when the other is 1 Ohm loaded no longer drops the input power, it actually increases the input!

The only thing that does decrease the input power is by adding the cores to the unloaded coil base which I demonstrated in my last video.
However, as pointed out by dragon at EF, the cores are coupling the opposite pole (drill plate) on that side of the C core which relieves the rotor to core drag.
We may say great that's still a saving but it's not, since if I remove the 1 Ohm load the prime mover input is lowered by that amount and if I connect the load once again, there's close to 6 watts increase to input to deliver 5 watts to the 1 Ohm load.
So it now seems there's nothing out of the ordinary going on in this Bitt version of the Ramadan device.

I'll be resuming my tests on the thngr's simple version.

Luc
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: PhysicsProfessor on January 08, 2015, 02:09:28 PM
  Again, thanks for laying out the empirical facts (no matter how it turns out!), Luc.  This is how we make progress IMO, doing experiments, laying out the results.
Title: Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
Post by: thngr on January 08, 2015, 02:59:44 PM
New