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Author Topic: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )  (Read 608466 times)

Jimboot

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #660 on: December 30, 2014, 04:07:39 AM »
Just a reminder to those unaware this is also being discussed and developed over here


http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/19851-topic-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning-8.html#post268994


thx for looking


Chet
Yep - there are no armchair quarterbacks either :)

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #661 on: December 30, 2014, 04:14:58 AM »
Thanks Chet for reminding me of that.  I know the majority on the EF thread will be reading this thread.  Just for fun, I will read their thread.

They should get my message loud and clear also.  Build something and then really test it.  Do something real with the testing and start generating some real data and try to learn something and draw some conclusions from that data.  Go back and look at the proposition and the claim.  Apply your knowledge of electronics to see if your knowledge of electronics matches the data you have accumulated.  Figure out how the device actually works in real life as opposed to the claims made by some YouTube dude that you don't even know.

I honestly suspect that for some YouTube guys the thrill for them is making a fake clip, and then the real thrill is watching the people debate it and then build replications and all that stuff.  That might be like the ultimate mental masturbation for them - watching people replicate their fake stuff.  It gives them a feeling of power.

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #662 on: December 30, 2014, 04:16:38 AM »
Yep - there are no armchair quarterbacks either :)

Are you talking about me?  If you are, what's wrong with an armchair quarterback if they say stuff that makes sense and adds value?

ketone

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #663 on: December 30, 2014, 05:14:10 AM »
Are you talking about me?  If you are, what's wrong with an armchair quarterback if they say stuff that makes sense and adds value?

Because they don't get their hands dirty and regurgitate what they "know so well" and derail unconventional thought which stifles the creative process.
With that being said,it was not directed at you MH ,it was my interpretation of an Armchair Quarterback :)

gotoluc

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lumen

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #665 on: December 30, 2014, 05:54:31 AM »
Lumen,

Taking into context my previous posting, you are just clutching at straws.  There is no point in trying some "new flux workaround" when the basic design as it exists right now redirects flux already.  In my opinion there is just no point in going in the directions you are suggesting.

I have another generic comment for your consideration.  When you talk about modifying builds or circuits, if your description is longer than three sentences then forget it.  Nobody can follow a full-paragraph description of a modification to a build or a schematic in their heads.  But they are usually too polite to tell the other person that.  What you end up with is a bullshit conversation where both parties are generating words, but neither party really and truly understands the other party.  Sometimes you see whole threads talking about new pick-up coil positions, and new circuitry, and that "that will generate a big spike here" and "that should recharge your source battery" and it's all bullshit.

Seriously, if it takes more than three sentences then you need a drawing or a schematic preferably with a timing diagram.  I read your prose but I simply don't have a 3D CAD program running in my head.  Please don't be offended, I am just being honest with you.

MileHigh
MileHigh:
I do know that a person can have a concept vividly in their head but are unable to describe it in a way that doesn't require much thought to grasp by others.
So I do understand the problem in conveying thoughts.
 
Now "clutching at straws" is something I just don't do. I have given it some thought and applied the next logical design change given the data.
You can't actually believe that one flux path is just the same as any other.  This design has produced an anomaly from the start that one must consider regardless of any other problems with the design. Why does the prime mover load drop when the coil is loaded? This is not the same as just any flux path in a conventional generator where the output load always causes additional input load.
 
It seems clear that somehow Lenz is reducing the input requirement since loading the coil can only produce Lenz. I believe this should be considered different than just any flux path.
 
Luc:
Good job, the X cores work better!
 

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #666 on: December 30, 2014, 06:46:25 AM »
Lumen:

Yes one flux path is pretty much the same as any other in the sense that the pick-up coil doesn't care what mechanism was used to change the flux.

Think about this:  You have a cylindrical magnet one inch from a pick up coil that is driving a load.  They are both on the same axis:

[magnet] ------ [coil] -->(load)

The magnet moves right and left (closer and further away) from the stationary coil.  When you move the magnet you feel Lenz drag.

Now, keep the magnet and the coil fixed in place.  Take a piece of ferrite and move it up and down in the gap between the magnet and the coil.  When the ferrite is between the magnet and the coil obviously more flux flows through the coil.  When you move the ferrite up an down you will feel Lenz drag.

In the final analysis they are both the same thing.

Quote
This design has produced an anomaly from the start that one must consider regardless of any other problems with the design. Why does the prime mover load drop when the coil is loaded?

For starters, there are countless experiments on YouTube for all sorts of setups where the input power to the prime mover drops when you add a load to the output of the device under test.

You actually don't have any evidence for an anomaly.  I already stated one possible explanation for the prime mover power consumption dropping when the load is connected to the coil.

The main reason for the lack of evidence is that most of the input power to the prime mover becomes waste heat.  If you add the load resistor to the generator coil, and for whatever reason the waste heat production from the prime mover decreases, then it would explain the input power drop when the generator coil drives a load.  It's as simple as that.

All of your data is "drowning" in the waste heat production of the prime mover.  The waste heat production can be 10 or 20 times greater than the useful power going to the load.  You don't know what the waste heat production is for a given test.

This is the nature of the setup with the drill press.  So you guys collectively have the problem of trying to figure out how to deal with all of this waste heat production and finding some meaningful way to extract the data that you can work with.  If you can't do that, then you are just staring at some meaningless numbers.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #667 on: December 30, 2014, 07:17:58 AM »
I just noticed the waveform in Luc's first clip that he also showed in his new second clip and I attached it here.  Sorry I could not rotate the image to make it look better because my PC has no software loaded to do that quickly and easily.

I think that it's the open circuit waveform for the pick-up coil.  It's a pretty unusual waveform.  Has anybody tried to explain it or understand it?  I assume no because it's very early in the process for Luc's build.

Here is the important point:  You have to explain that waveform if you want to understand what is going on.  There is no such thing as looking at an unusual waveform and saying nothing.  If you don't even attempt to understand that waveform then what's the point?

I know, I am expecting a true investigation to take place among you guys that are truly interested in this project and the reality on the forums is this almost never happens.

How much you get out of this investigation and how much you learn is all up to you.

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #668 on: December 30, 2014, 07:26:37 AM »
Because they don't get their hands dirty and regurgitate what they "know so well" and derail unconventional thought which stifles the creative process.
With that being said,it was not directed at you MH ,it was my interpretation of an Armchair Quarterback :)

Ha ha.... I get the impression that you are suggesting I am guilty of the above nonetheless.  Right now a lot of the creative process and unconventional thought is actually coming from yours truly.

The truth is I am about to back out.  Let's see what the boys can do for themselves.  I have outlined a lot of critical issues for their consideration.

gotoluc

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #669 on: December 30, 2014, 08:03:56 AM »
I would think the attached is the positions

tinman

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #670 on: December 30, 2014, 01:28:29 PM »
MileHigh:
 
Now "clutching at straws" is something I just don't do. I have given it some thought and applied the next logical design change given the data.
You can't actually believe that one flux path is just the same as any other.  This design has produced an anomaly from the start that one must consider regardless of any other problems with the design. Why does the prime mover load drop when the coil is loaded? This is not the same as just any flux path in a conventional generator where the output load always causes additional input load.
 
It seems clear that somehow Lenz is reducing the input requirement since loading the coil can only produce Lenz. I believe this should be considered different than just any flux path.
 
Luc:
Good job, the X cores work better!
Your doing nothing more than driving your car around with the hand brake on. All of a sudden you take the hand brake off,the car picks up speed without pushing the accelerator any further down,and you think you have some how gained some free energy.The load is already on the prime mover,and when you draw power from the coil,you are releaving the stresses that have already been present in the core material-you just took the hand brake off.Luc him self has already pointed out that the drill press motor draws 10 watt's more(i think it was that much)when he places the core under the rotating flux gate yoke.

tinman

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #671 on: December 30, 2014, 01:39:06 PM »
Luc
What you need to achieve is very simple,and no need for all these exotic test's that some are saying is needed. You simply need to be able to draw that 5 watts from your DUT,and have the drill press motor draw the same amount of power as it dose when the DUT is not present. This will show a true no load situation. Now,if you can then get the drill press motor to draw less when you activate the P/out on your DUT,then you know you have a motoring effect happening there.

I am going to hold off for a while in posting my !no load generator!,but when the time is right,i will post it here. I have found a way to create this flux gate using an electromagnet insted of rotating chunks of iron/steel. I still have a laminated steel rotor,but that is to carry the secondary magnetic field.The down side is,i am not getting 5 watt's out,more like 1.5 watt's,but the good stuff happens on the input side. 8)

Jimboot

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #672 on: December 30, 2014, 02:31:15 PM »
Just a quick update, my prime mover is down to 5 watts. Keeping the rotor irons magnetically separated was key. The clogging is a lot higher but when it gets up to speed the current draw is halved. Working on coil arrangements now

tinman

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #673 on: December 30, 2014, 03:07:08 PM »
Just a quick update, my prime mover is down to 5 watts. Keeping the rotor irons magnetically separated was key. The clogging is a lot higher but when it gets up to speed the current draw is halved. Working on coil arrangements now
Jim
All electric motors will drop in current draw once they get up to speed when they have a load applied to them from startup. Even without a load,an electric motor will draw a lot of current during start up. The current draw will drop as the rpm increases-->unless they have what is called a soft start.

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #674 on: December 30, 2014, 03:27:02 PM »
Luc
What you need to achieve is very simple,and no need for all these exotic test's that some are saying is needed. You simply need to be able to draw that 5 watts from your DUT,and have the drill press motor draw the same amount of power as it dose when the DUT is not present. This will show a true no load situation. Now,if you can then get the drill press motor to draw less when you activate the P/out on your DUT,then you know you have a motoring effect happening there.

In theory it's easily possible for 5 watts to be output by the DUT while the drill press draws the same amount of power.  So that will prove nothing.  Likewise, it's also possible for the drill press to draw less power when the DUT is outputting power.

How is this possible?

As you have the DUT connected to the drill press, you start to oil the two main bearings for the drive motor and the four main bearings for the pulley.  Voila, the power being drawn by the drill press will go down while the DUT outputs power into a load.

So the real answer is that it's NOT simple.  The efficiency of the drill press in terms of electrical power in to mechanical power out at the drill chuck is an unknown.  You cannot generate any useful data without somehow accounting for or working around the unknown efficiency of the drill press.  It's the elephant in the room.

I previously stated that a flywheel would eliminate most of these problems but the test setup uses a drill press and not a flywheel.  Knowing this, can the people on this thread and the EF thread come up with any ideas or solutions to turn the drill press into a useful test bed that can generate useful data?

Like I said before, this is a place to discuss and analyze energy systems.  So you have no choice but to try to properly analyze this energy system if you want to get it right.

MileHigh