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Author Topic: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )  (Read 608457 times)

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #330 on: December 10, 2014, 01:22:41 AM »
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This assumption comes from misunderstanding on how quickly coil reacts to magnetic impulse given. Obviously the longer wire the bigger inductance is and due that fact the slower coil response is. We are talking about range from microseconds to milliseconds and when proper conditions are met with magnet passing by the coil quicker than it can react with current the speedup under load/short circuit effect manifests.

The coil will not respond more slowly to the changing magnetic flux from a passing magnet if it is a larger coil with a larger inductance.   There are two separate and distinct effects and I believe that you are mixing the two effects together when in fact this does not happen.

1)  Response from a coil for a passing rotor magnet:   In this case the magnet is the source of the flux and the coil will respond to the changing flux by generating a voltage across its two terminals.  If the coil is a large inductance coil or a small inductance coil, the response will be approximately the same in terms of the timing, there is no delay in both cases.  This is a case where the coil is generating a response to an external source of magnetic flux.  The stimulus is external changing flux and the response is voltage across the coil terminals.

2) Response to voltage excitation across the two terminals of the coil:  In this case the larger inductance coil will respond more slowly than the small inductance coil.  So there is a timing difference in this case.  This is a case where the coil is generating a response to an external voltage source.  The stimulus is a voltage applied across the two terminals of the coil and the response is current flow through the coil/generation of flux by the coil itself.

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Just the problem root cause is not how we can circumvent Lenz force itself. Usually in generators you get at least three phase system which contains sets of coils around of ring. If they are all arranged to get magnetic field change at the same time the drag will be biggest (this is what is in conventional generator design). But if you arrange them to get magnetic flux change in series the entire picture changes with resulting lowest drag with price of lowest power output. In that case it is becoming obvious how the drag can be manipulated. To dig in even further the problem source is single static magnetic pole passing by coil which creates alternating magnet by induction. So you have repulsion when it approaches coil which is against movement and attraction when magnet leaves coil which is against movement again. For a child who knows nothing about physics the logical question would occur - what will happen if we can change magnet polarity as it moves and have its one polarity when magnet is approaching coil then start flipping polarity when magnet starts leaving coil? The answer will be quite simple: in that scenario you have repulsion when magnet approaches coil with force opposing movement and will have repulsion with force helping movement when it leaves coil due fact the opposite magnetic field increase on leaving moment. And here most important part occurs: since you can have this arrangement when there are multiple coils getting polarity change in series to each other the one of things can happen: when magnet is approaching one coil and other magnet is leaving another coil at the same time the summary net kinetic force of repulsion around a ring becomes zero. So here is one of solutions how to solve drag issue caused by Lenz force...

No matter what the configuration of the generator, the more electrical power it outputs into a load, the more mechanical power that you must supply to the generator.  There will not be any "net force helping movement."   This type of discussion is too difficult to discuss in text only.  This is a case where you need to make measurements with your scope and construct timing diagrams so that you can analyse what the generator is doing step by step.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 03:42:34 AM by MileHigh »

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #331 on: December 10, 2014, 01:33:51 AM »
Delayed Lenz is a good analogy , You can't eliminate it but redirect it. Use it to spike another coil ,collect the output and put it back in.
When you feed power to a coil it creates the magnetic field. If I pass a magnet past a coil it creates a magnetic field .
What happens when you pass a magnet past a coil at the same time you pulse it?
artv

Delayed Lenz is a false analogy.  You raise some interesting points, but here is another case where you have to have a schematic diagram and a set of timing diagrams referencing the schematic to really discuss what may be going on.  "Use it to spike another coil ,collect the output and put it back in." - it's too easy to just say that stuff and not back it up.  The only real and true way to do it is with a schematic and timing diagrams.  You could also build a circuit and confirm that it really does what you claim.  That's where it starts to get difficult for a lot of people - to make the transition from just describing how you think something might work, to actually doing the circuit, making a good schematic and set of timing diagrams, and then verifying that your timing diagrams are correct by checking with your scope.

MileHigh

T-1000

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #332 on: December 10, 2014, 01:37:28 AM »
MileHigh,

Had to dig something up from history - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j-0CvWYT8w Just listen on rotor speed change when generator coil is under different load and unloaded (or attach soundscope). There are quite many of videos like that. Sorry, the reality is different than you have in theory for a coil reaction timing. The coil natural resonance is at the play with it.
Also for different generator design seems you completely missed a point where moving static magnet becomes alternating magnet. The result will be not same "more physical force in for getting more power out". If you are still very skeptic by doing experiment this can be revealed on your table.

Cheers!

shylo

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #333 on: December 10, 2014, 01:46:13 AM »
Hi Milehigh, Very interesting what are those quotes from?
As a magnet enters the coil , the flow continues to rise, then drops, fields change? Right?
Just need to switch at the right time?
I don't think passing steel between the magnets is all there is , more to it than that.
artv

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #334 on: December 10, 2014, 02:27:19 AM »
T-1000:

I watched the clip and I heard the speed-up and saw the current consumption drop for the two different loads.   In this case we go from an open-circut generator coil to a loaded generator coil.  So this is a different case from my original discussion where I compared a short-circuited generator coil to a loaded generator coil.  In this case we are still not dealing with any "delayed Lenz effect" or coil resonance.

This clip is a great example, and I have seen many myself in the past.  The reason there is no delayed Lenz effect is that the timing of the current flow through the generator coil will not show any delay.  Nor will the magnetic repulsion show any delay.  Also, the natural resonant frequency of the generator coil like you see in the clip will be very high, much higher than the frequency it is running at in the clip.  More importantly, who says "natural resonance" has to increase the RPM of the rotor?  That is a misleading assumption, just like assuming "delayed Lenz effect" is a misleading assumption.

So, we know that when the coil is not driving a load, there is no useful output.   That means all of the input power is becoming waste heat.   Yes, the rotor is spinning, but that is not a useful output.  The spinning rotor just heats the air and that produces waste heat.

When the coil is driving the LED board or the incandescent light bulb, then you have a useful output, and you still have a lot of waste heat.

So why does the rotor speed up if it has nothing to do with a delayed Lenz effect?  To find the answer you would have to make very careful and precise measurements.  It would be a challenge to do that for sure, but it would be rewarding to find out the solution to the problem.  I cannot tell you the exact reason why, but I do have a general idea why.

Here is an example of what is happening from a "top view" just as an example, it is not necessarily correct.

1)  When the generator coil is not driving a load:

<Voltage source> -> <AC power flow 'X1' watts> -> [<'Y1' Power to spin the rotor (= waste heat)> + <'Z1'' Power lost to cogging (= waste heat)>]

2) When the generator coil is driving a load:

<Voltage source> -> <AC power flow 'X2' watts> -> [<'Y2' Power to spin the rotor (= waste heat)> + <'Z2'' Power lost to cogging (= waste heat)> + <'L2' power going to load>]

In the clip you can see the current draw drops under load.   So that means that X2 is less than X1.  It's doesn't really matter.  The only thing that matters is that Y2 is greater than Y1.  It has absolutely nothing to do with a "delayed Lenz effect."

How do you make the measurements above?   The answer is with great difficulty.   It would be a real challenge.  I am pretty sure that the power lost to cogging goes down when the pick-up coil is driving a load.  Meauring Y2 and Y1 would not be easy, you note that the RPM of rotor by ear only changes perhaps 1% or 2%.

What would be easy, would be to confirm that there is no delayed Lenz effect.  If you have a scope you can look at the current flowing through the pick up coil and the position of the rotor magnet as it passes the pick-up coil.  You will quickly see that there is no "delayed Lenz effect."

MileHigh

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #335 on: December 10, 2014, 02:58:11 AM »
You guys appear to be nearing something significant, because a "new member" showed up "out of the blue" to offer some helpful but incomplete information...which oddly enough leads off in another direction.

Regards...

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #336 on: December 10, 2014, 02:58:36 AM »
T-1000:

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The coil natural resonance is at the play with it.

The above quote illustrates a classic problem that you see on the forums.  It applies to many people, not just you.  It's a kind of "blind belief" that "resonance is good" and that "must somehow" be part or all of the reason that the rotor speeds up.

This is a serious mistake and I ask you to think about this very seriously.  What do you mean by the coil resonance in the context of the clip?  Precisely why should the rotor speed up?  Can you draw a timing diagram that shows how the coil resonance interacts with the passing rotor magnets?  Can your timing diagram show how and why the rotor speeds up?

Don't worry, I am not expecting you to literally answer these questions, it's just to make you think.  If you have a pulse motor and a scope one day you should try to construct a timing diagram for your pulse motor to understand precisely what it is doing.  You have to have the rotor magnet position and the the voltage and current output from your pick-up coil when it is driving a load on your timing diagram.  You can then see the actual Lenz drag on the rotor magnet.  You can do a similar investigation for the drive coil to see exactly why the current consumption increases or decreases.

The most important lesson here is to think critically about these often repeated cliches.  "The pick-up coil goes into resonance and that makes the pulse motor run better."   Really?  Who says?  Does anyone have proof of this?  You need to challenge yourself and challenge your peers to avoid cliches and instead actually find out if they are true.

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Also for different generator design seems you completely missed a point where moving static magnet becomes alternating magnet. The result will be not same "more physical force in for getting more power out". If you are still very skeptic by doing experiment this can be revealed on your table.

You can't just by "magic" change the polarity of a magnet inside a generator while it is running.  Even if you could that would  require energy to do that.  I am not sure what kind of experiment that you are suggesting but I can't see this idea becoming practical in any way.  All these ideas of "tricking" a system to get repulsion instead of attraction, etc, are things that you can experiment on if you want to.

Anyway, I hope this discussion makes you and other pulse motor enthusiasts think, and think critically about what you are observing when you work on a bench.   Simply observing a pulse motor speed up and then saying to yourself, "There, I have achieved the 'delayed Lenz effect'" is a big mistake.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #337 on: December 10, 2014, 03:02:52 AM »
Shylo:

The quotes come from me.

Captain Zero:

You have got to be kidding.  Focus on the global plight of the platypus or some other conspiracy.

MileHigh

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #338 on: December 10, 2014, 03:08:27 AM »
Shylo:

The quotes come from me.

Captain Zero:

You have got to be kidding.  Focus on the global plight of the platypus or some other conspiracy.

MileHigh



That remark ladeees and gents, has all the ear marks of 'tag trolling'.

Regards...


Dog-One

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #339 on: December 10, 2014, 03:10:17 AM »
Had to dig something up from history - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j-0CvWYT8w Just listen on rotor speed change when generator coil is under different load and unloaded (or attach soundscope). There are quite many of videos like that.

Yes T.  When the coils have no electrical path, the energy induced in those coils has only one place to dissipate, that being back to the core and on to the rotor as a counter force to the direction of motion.  When the coils are connected to a load, any load, now that energy has an alternate path to dissipate and surprise, surprise, the rotor speed increases due to less counter force.  It may really be that simple.  One can play all the mind screw games they want and the obvious doesn't change.  Having said that, I actually think what you see though is a bit more complicated.  I think the electricity actually passes through the load, goes back to the coil and begins to alter the magnetic field in the core over enough time the force at the pole of the core is reversed as the magnet passes by.

So on the topic of Delayed Lenz Effect, lets just consider a simple piece of electrical grade steel.  As far as I'm aware, there is no measuring instrument that can show me exactly the propagation and displacement of a magnetic field as it penetrates and temporarily polarizes the steel.  So I cannot prove this one way or another and I doubt anyone else can either, but my gut says this does not happen instantaneously.  Which means if alternating magnetic fields pass by this piece of steel at sufficient frequency and short duration, the steel cannot possibly alter its magnetic orientation quickly enough to behave the same as it would with a simple hand demonstration.  What would be nice to know is if once the propagation starts, does it run to completion even when a reverse field interrupts it, or does it stop half way and begin to propagate in the other direction.  Either way, propagation of a magnetic field through this steel implies there is a delay, an event interval.  I happen to suspect the polarization occurs at the atomic level.  At this level, superposition is at play, which means the polarization runs through the steel in waves.  So we can clearly have magnetic self resonance within the steel itself.  What you see at the poles is almost no indication to what is happening inside.  And what is happening inside (the majority) also participates in the act of induction.


So if there are any measuring errors to correct, first find me an instrument that will let me see what I need to see to prove or disprove my instincts.  In the meantime, use a little logic and think as you go.  There are a lot of folks out there that would rather you just put all your research equipment on eBay and go watch football.  I'd rather you didn't give them what they want and instead look deeper and make something work the way you think it can.  I know T-1000 is, anyone else care to join him?

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #340 on: December 10, 2014, 03:12:37 AM »


That remark ladeees and gents, has all the ear marks of 'tag trolling'.

Regards...

I don't think anybody wants to hear your nonsense coming from the peanut galley on this thread.  You are here to service your addiction for making dumbo comments?  Please do your shtick on another thread and don't spoil this one.

thngr

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #341 on: December 10, 2014, 03:16:11 AM »
I forgot to mention that laminations aligned horizontally.
about elektro-magnet polarities last generator design of mine:
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 08:52:07 AM by thngr »

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #342 on: December 10, 2014, 03:19:53 AM »
And for those scoring at home, it goes something like this...

A seemingly viable concept is presented,

Immediately ridiculed without qualification.

A lively discussion ensues nevertheless.

The thread is developing progressively.

A stranger bearing a bag of smelly 'red herring' arrives calling attention to the to bag of fish.

Somebody (me) kills the smell using baking powder.

An often accused troll (TrollHigher) rushes in with a fan attempting to disperse the baking powder, to bring back the fishy smell.

Regards...


Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #343 on: December 10, 2014, 03:36:48 AM »
I don't think anybody wants to hear your nonsense coming from the peanut galley on this thread.


I beg to differ with said troll.

People wood much prefer to read what I have to say on things...rather than tire their arm scrolling by his empty long winded diatribes. 



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You are here to service your addiction for making dumbo comments?
 


Classic troll projecting...i seriously doubt any 2 members wood come close to this loon's word count.

I think we all know which of us is the addict...well, except for one maybe.



Quote
Please do your shtick on another thread and don't spoil this one.



Like everybody doesn't read, and saw the various attempts to bury this thread.

Looks as tho he's using troll voodoo to hypnotroll the readership.

Regards...


MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #344 on: December 10, 2014, 03:39:40 AM »
What a case you are Captain Zero.  For me you are a person whose "brain does not process information properly."  You are high functioning that's for sure, but there is definitely something wrong.   This thread is a month old and I haven't even read it.  I saw a 240p 25-minute YouTube video and I simply don't have the patience to watch yet another very long video with a guy playing with what appears to be a modified COTS motor on a dirt floor.  I don't even know what the pitch is beyond the subject line, and the content of the subject line doesn't even make any sense to me. I glanced through the past 5 postings and saw the discussion about the so-called "delayed Lenz effect" so I discussed that.  Do you get that?  I don't even know what the thread is truly about, I haven't followed it, nor am I interested in it.  I am guessing that the thread wandered off the original subject matter anyway, as that often happens.  Can your brain process that?  I am only here to discuss the recent topic of the phony "delayed Lenz effect."