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Author Topic: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )  (Read 608527 times)

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #555 on: December 24, 2014, 05:49:53 PM »
This is the point of this build https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OSXbG2BmUw Thanks Jimboot.
When a magnet induces current in a coil the coils magnetic field opposes the magnet.
When iron is between the two at some point you get attraction which doesnt happen in a conventional generator.
So unless you have built it and know it doesnt work your talken trash.
Simple......................

No I'm not talking trash.  It's 100% conventional, you just want to believe that it's not conventional.  One more time, it's a failure of the imagination.  Ultimately, you will get Lenz drag when you move the iron or the ferrite.

They are welcome to build and do their testing.  I have no intention of stopping anybody.  However, if you just sat down and studied the basic fundamentals before you built it you would be that much wiser.

Kator01

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #556 on: December 24, 2014, 05:57:34 PM »
Luc,

if you cut out the red marked section of the core you might as well take away the full half of the lamination as the remaining outer parts can not carry much flux ( flux path is broken ) ..this is only true for the shown orientation of lamination.

The ciritcal point I see is the very small overlapping area of the U-core cross-section. Most of this area is exposed to the airgap.

What would I do ?

not cutting of the core and bigger cross-section of the U-core

Kator01

lumen

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #557 on: December 25, 2014, 12:06:09 AM »
Kator01:
I don't believe Luc ment to cut the center of the core out, I think he meant to just take the corners off in that area.

tinman

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #558 on: December 25, 2014, 12:53:15 AM »
This is the point of this build https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OSXbG2BmUw Thanks Jimboot.
When a magnet induces current in a coil the coils magnetic field opposes the magnet.
When iron is between the two at some point you get attraction which doesnt happen in a conventional generator.
So unless you have built it and know it doesnt work your talken trash.
Simple......................
The iron carries the PM's magnetic field,and thus becomes a temorary magnet it self,and the lenz force act's apon this temporary magnet the same way as it would the PM it self. At the point where you get this attraction of the iron to the magnet,is the point where no current is being produced by the generating coil,and this attraction force is equal when the iron is trying to leave the PM as well,and the net result is zero. You then add eddy current losses induced into the iron,and you now have a loss that will be in the form of heat in the iron.

I have an !off the shelf! flux gate generator that is very similar to the one this thread is all about,and it is one of the worst performers i have ever come across as far as generators go-although it looks a treat ::) These designs have been around for a very long time(the one i have was built back in the 50's i believe),and you wont see them in any new tech-->there is a reason for this,and that reason is because of there poor efficiency.

NoBull

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #559 on: December 25, 2014, 01:40:29 AM »
Generate electricity by changing the flux through a coil:
1.  Move the magnet past the coil.
2.  Move the coil past the magnet.
3.  Move the ferrite core between the magnet and the coil.
4.  Use a fancy "flux redirector system" based on a moving laminated transformer core.
5.  Heat up a ferromagnetic core inside a coil above its Curie point
6.  Chill a ferromagnetic core inside a coil below its Curie point
7.  Squeeze a ferromagnetic core inside a coil (including sound waves)
8.  Modulate the permeability of a ferromagnetic core inside a coil with a strong electric field.
9.  Change the shape of the coil

gotoluc

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #560 on: December 25, 2014, 01:45:13 AM »
Kator01:
I don't believe Luc ment to cut the center of the core out, I think he meant to just take the corners off in that area.

Thanks guys, I won't cut anything for now.

@ lumen, do you think my U-core should be wider as Kator01 mentions below. It's not a problem to make it wider if you think it needs it!

The ciritcal point I see is the very small overlapping area of the U-core cross-section. Most of this area is exposed to the airgap.

Pirate88179

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #561 on: December 25, 2014, 01:48:00 AM »
5.  Heat up a ferromagnetic core inside a coil above its Curie point
6.  Chill a ferromagnetic core inside a coil below its Curie point
7.  Squeeze a ferromagnetic core inside a coil (including sound waves)
8.  Modulate the permeability of a ferromagnetic core inside a coil with a strong electric field.
9.  Change the shape of the coil

5. Adding energy to the circuit.
6. Adding energy to the circuit.
7. Adding energy to the circuit, either mechanical, or electric.
8. Adding energy to the circuit.
9. Adding energy to the circuit: mechanical.


I submit that any of your suggestions would require more energy than Lenz would take away...even IF you were able to suppress Lenz with any of these methods, which is not a given at this point.


Bill

NoBull

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #562 on: December 25, 2014, 02:24:57 AM »
5. Adding energy to the circuit.
6. Adding energy to the circuit.
7. Adding energy to the circuit, either mechanical, or electric.
8. Adding energy to the circuit.
9. Adding energy to the circuit: mechanical.
Yes, most of these methods of changing the flux penetrating a coil requires energy input, except pt.6 and the energy balance of pt.8 is questionable (see the article by Konrad & Brudny in IEEE Transactions on Magnetics, Vol. 41, No. 10 from October 2005)

I submit that any of your suggestions would require more energy than Lenz would take away...
Perhaps, but I did not claim otherwise.   For completeness, I just supplemented MileHigh's listing of methods that change the flux through the coil.

However,  I disagree with your implication, that the phenomenon described in the Lenz's law is responsible for any energy being "taken away".  For example, the mechanical drag (a mechanical energy loss) experienced by moving magnets in proximity to shorted/loaded coils and other conducting materials is not due to the Lenz's law but to their electrical resistance.

In an ideal coil without resistance there is no mechanical drag to an approaching and departing magnet, despite that current is still induced in such coil in full accordance with the Lenz's law.
In SC coils the integral of abs(force) over distance is exactly the same during the approach as during the departure of the moving magnet (to and from infinity), so there is no net gain nor loss (drag) of mechanical energy over the full cycle.

Pirate88179

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #563 on: December 25, 2014, 02:33:08 AM »

In SC coils the integral of abs(force) over distance is exactly the same during the approach as during the departure of the moving magnet (to and from infinity), so there is no net gain nor loss (drag) of mechanical energy over the full cycle.

Thanks.  But, does this also include a load on the circuit?  What if the load increases?  Then what?

Bill

NoBull

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #564 on: December 25, 2014, 02:39:07 AM »
Thanks.  But, does this also include a load on the circuit?  What if the load increases?  Then what?
It doesn't.  A resistive load will ultimately and irreversibly convert the mechanical energy to heat and a capacitive load will reversibly convert it to charge.
The irreversible conversion will be manifested as mechanical drag but Mr.Ohm will be the one responsible for it - not Mr.Lenz.

NoBull

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #565 on: December 25, 2014, 02:44:19 AM »
Instead of trying to cheat Mr.Lenz with irrelevant VRM, etc... it is much more interesting to ponder the recovery of ferromagnetic polarization energy from an air core coil that attracts a movable soft ferromagnetic core from afar.

lumen

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #566 on: December 25, 2014, 07:02:29 AM »
Instead of trying to cheat Mr.Lenz with irrelevant VRM, etc... it is much more interesting to ponder the recovery of ferromagnetic polarization energy from an air core coil that attracts a movable soft ferromagnetic core from afar.

NoBull:

That old and tired method has been tried by every pulse motor builder for the last ten years. Zero success!


A superconducting coil would have 100% Lenz.
Any induced coil current would respond with 100% Lenz.

Lenz is not well understood by most. Connect a battery to a coil and you generate a magnetic field because you have current flowing in the coil.

When the coil cuts a magnetic field loop current is induced in the shorted coil and this same current generates a magnetic field just like the battery did.
Nothing special, nothing magical, just current in the coil generating a magnetic field.

If possible, cheating Lenz would be your only hope for success.
Core loss for any reason could be reduced or nearly eliminated if you first found a way to remove Lenz from the picture.

Lenz is the primary issue when converting work to electrical current.


lumen

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #567 on: December 25, 2014, 07:42:46 AM »
Thanks guys, I won't cut anything for now.

@ lumen, do you think my U-core should be wider as Kator01 mentions below. It's not a problem to make it wider if you think it needs it!

Luc:

When the C reaches the ends of the coils two cores, the idea is to have the C short the field at this point across the two coil cores.
The shorting will reduce the magnetic field loops and contain it in two separate loops inside the coil.
There should be nearly no field leaving the core at this point which is the basis for placing Lenz on the other side of the prime mover.
When the C section rotates about 20 degrees, the field loops will expand and cut the coil to connect to the C section which is reversed of the normal method of using the Iron C to push the field into the coil and against Lenz.
With load on the coil, the loops are prevented from expanding outward cutting the coil by Lenz and can only cut the coil with a force dependent on the magnet itself.

NoBull

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #568 on: December 25, 2014, 08:14:01 AM »
NoBull:
That old and tired method has been tried by every pulse motor builder for the last ten years. Zero success!
Really?  Can you point me to an example?

A superconducting coil would have 100% Lenz.
Any induced coil current would respond with 100% Lenz.
Yes, but don't all loaded coils respond to external flux change according to Lenz's law?

Lenz is not well understood by most. Connect a battery to a coil and you generate a magnetic field because you have current flowing in the coil.
That behavior is the subject od Ampere's law of magnetostatics.
Lenz's law is a qualitative law that only states the polarity of the induced voltage (emf) and current (if one is allowed to flow) in response to a changing external flux. 
It doesn't even state their magnitude, bummer:(

When the coil cuts a magnetic field loop, current is induced in the shorted coil and this same current generates a magnetic field just like the battery did.
Except this internally generated flux is in the opposite direction to the external changing (cut) flux.
In an ideal shorted coil this internally generated flux is equal but opposite to the external changing flux and when you add both of them up, the net flux penetrating the coil (their sum) stays constant (see this video)

If possible, cheating Lenz would be your only hope for success.
Lenz is the primary issue when converting work to electrical current.
Without Lenz's law behavior, the changing magnetic flux would not be converted to electrical current in a coil/conductor, regardless of what caused that external flux change.

In other words, if you get rid of coil's response according to Lenz's law then you get rid of Faraday's law response, too and all induced current with it. 
Mathematically Lenz's law is the -1 factor in the Faraday's law. Getting rid of it (setting it to zero) would cancel the entire Faraday's law and kill all induction with it :(

thngr

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #569 on: December 25, 2014, 03:58:37 PM »
Do not read above pointless debate, instead read older posts, if you are looking for free energy devices! so many hothads we have.