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Author Topic: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )  (Read 608469 times)

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #345 on: December 10, 2014, 03:43:16 AM »
Shhuuuurrrrre


SeaMonkey

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #346 on: December 10, 2014, 03:51:08 AM »
Though it is true that Miles Higher nurtures a strong
case of cognitive dissonance relative to certain matters,
his thoughts regarding the Lenz Effect and what has
come to be known as the Delayed Lenz Effect have credibility.

With conventional dynamos and generators the Lenz Effect
maximizes within the region of maximum magnetic field
strength;  hence it manifests as a strong physical resistance
to movement by the prime mover.

In order to minimize the Lenz Effect (which is truly inescapable)
it should be maximized in the region of minimum magnetic field
strength within the dynamo or generator.  With electronic switching
techniques this is fairly easily accomplished.

With the old style DC generators it may be accomplished by re-
positioning the brushes contact area with the commutator.

Of course this has been tried in the distant past and it will work
to some extent.  The problem is that the electrical output of the
generator falls to a small fraction of what it would have been
under 'normal' operating conditions.

There are new types of generators and alternators which by their
unique designs do reduce the Lenz Effect without any loss of electrical
output power.  None have yet achieved 'over unity.'

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #347 on: December 10, 2014, 04:08:28 AM »
That wood be a yes and a no SeaM.

" Though it is true that Miles Higher nurtures a strong
case of cognitive dissonance relative to certain matters,..."

An unqualified yes.



"...his thoughts regarding the Lenz Effect and what has
come to be known as the Delayed Lenz Effect have credibility."


And that wood be the no part.

You see, nobody understands magnetism...so, until then, everybody here is just speculating about LENZ effects.

Regards...


MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #348 on: December 10, 2014, 04:17:07 AM »
SeaMonkey:

Reduce the Lenz drag from a generator under load and you end up reducing the power output also!  Very astute!

DogOne:

Quote
Yes T.  When the coils have no electrical path, the energy induced in those coils has only one place to dissipate, that being back to the core and on to the rotor as a counter force to the direction of motion.  When the coils are connected to a load, any load, now that energy has an alternate path to dissipate and surprise, surprise, the rotor speed increases due to less counter force.  It may really be that simple.  One can play all the mind screw games they want and the obvious doesn't change.  Having said that, I actually think what you see though is a bit more complicated.  I think the electricity actually passes through the load, goes back to the coil and begins to alter the magnetic field in the core over enough time the force at the pole of the core is reversed as the magnet passes by.

If the generator output coils of a pulse motor are open circuit, then of course no current flows so by the "induced energy" I assume that you mean the ferrite core is the coil gets polarized.  However it won't be a counter force to the direction of motion.  First there will be attraction in the direction of motion, then you pass TDC and then there is an attraction opposite to the direction of motion.  In theory in an ideal case, there is a net-zero effect on the rotor speed.  However, this whacks the main rotor bearing with disturbance torque which is the cogging and that causes bearing friction.  I assume that there will also be some hysteresis and possibly eddy current losses in the core itself but I am not sure how large they will be compared to the cogging losses.

If you are referring to me when you say "mind screw games" or implying that I have ulterior motives that is absolute crap and it's offensive.  There is nothing worse than trying to share knowledge and ideas and then have somebody come along and accuse you of "mind games" when you are trying to have a legitimate technical discussion.  If you weren't talking about me then fine.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #349 on: December 10, 2014, 04:25:09 AM »
Quote
And that wood be the no part.

Captain Zero, I have never seen you make a single original technical comment of your own so you are not qualified to comment on anything technical at all.  You are just a sour puss monger looking to get your sour puss juices flowing.  Got a spot that gets you hot?

Do you think I could interest you in a pair of zircon-encrusted tweezers?  lol

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #350 on: December 10, 2014, 05:11:50 AM »
Being smart enough to realize you don't know is a big boy step.

Only one of us has taken that step.

This particular troll has however, learned to stand clear when I express a definitive opinion on something in one my fields of endeavor...because unlike him I know of what I speak and do not bullsh!t people.

I do know as much about magnetism as this punter though...which is not a lot, by comparison.

Regards...


MileHigh

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #351 on: December 10, 2014, 05:21:47 AM »
How dare you insinuate that I lie and that I don't know what I am talking about.  You are a morally bankrupt individual and you are ruining this thread.

MarkE

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #352 on: December 10, 2014, 05:34:08 AM »
How dare you insinuate that I lie and that I don't know what I am talking about.  You are a morally bankrupt individual and you are ruining this thread.
Cap has offered one piece of advice that I suggest all consider very seriously:  Don't feed trolls.

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #353 on: December 10, 2014, 05:38:06 AM »
Well...lets break this down for the forum 'knowitall'.

When making statements of fact as it relates to magnetism, that is in effect 'bullsh!tting'.

And its virtually impossible to run off at the mouth like he does without spreading some.

No one has said so much and done so little.

Regards...


gotoluc

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #354 on: December 10, 2014, 07:18:16 AM »
What would be easy, would be to confirm that there is no delayed Lenz effect.  If you have a scope you can look at the current flowing through the pick up coil and the position of the rotor magnet as it passes the pick-up coil.  You will quickly see that there is no "delayed Lenz effect."

MileHigh

What if we have a coil which accelerates under load (AUL) and wind a high current coil over it. 
Now we have two coils on the same core. The only difference is, one AUL and the other does not.
We connect a 1 Ohm resistor to each coil and add scope probe across each.
First we put the AUL coil under load and wait till the RPM is stable, then we also load the high current coil.
What do you think we should see on the scope? will each resistor sinewave happen at the same time or could we see a phase shift between each load resistor?


Regards

Luc

thngr

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #355 on: December 10, 2014, 08:31:13 AM »
There is no delayed Lenz effect only thing I see poor magnetic cores transforms magnetic energy in to heat while not short circuited.
in short circuited coil there is much resistance to chancing magnetic field so in ideal conditions(super conductor coil) there wont be any magnetic flux chance. Bare iron is their core material.(which couse so many edycurrents in them) Please end your quarrel about it.[/size]

thngr

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #356 on: December 10, 2014, 10:13:51 AM »
Good luck with that.

Jimboot

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #357 on: December 10, 2014, 11:07:16 AM »
In glancing through this thread I see the notorious term "delayed Lenz effect" being mentioned.  There is no delayed Lenz effect and let's take a quick look at some of the issues involved.

For starters, the term is about the Lenz drag that a rotor experiences when a rotor magnet passes a pick-up coil that is driving a load.  If the rotor speeds up the mistaken assumption is that somehow the drag has been somehow "delayed" such that the rotor experiences less overall Lenz drag and therefore it speeds up.  Presumably nearly the same power is going into the load.  There may be other definitions or interpretations because it is a pretty loosely defined term but let's just use that one for this discussion.

Let's start with some basics like the idea of somehow "cheating Lenz."   Everybody knows that if you hold opposing North-North bar magnets in your hands that there is repulsion.  I don't think anybody would argue that you can "cheat" for this example.  Common sense tells you that opposing magnets repel and there is nothing that is ever going to change that.  So what about the case when a rotor magnet passes by a pick-up coil driving a load resistor?  We all know that current will flow in the coil.  Therefore the pick-up coil itself becomes an electromagnet.   So a spinning rotor magnet with the North facing out will see a Noth pole from an electromagnet (the pick-up coil) as it approaches causing Lenz drag.   When the rotor magnet leaves it will see a South pole electromagnet causing Lenz drag.  There is no way that the rotor magnet will interact in some kind of different way with the pick-up coil which is simply acting as an electromagnet.

If you can't "cheat" the repulsion force between two opposing magnets, by the same token you can't cheat the repulsion force between a magnet and an electromagnet.  If you want to drive a load with your pick-up coil, by definition current has to flow into the load, and therefore by definition the pick-up coil will become an electromagnet that opposes the movement of the spinning rotor magnet.  Therefore, there is no point in searching for an assumed "workaround" or "cheat" or "attempt to delay" the Lenz drag that the rotor magnet will experience.

So what is really happening?   A typical example is where the pick-up coil is shorted out and the rotor spins at say 500 RPM.   Then you attach a load resistor to the pick-up coil and you observe the rotor speed increase to say 800 RPM.  Voila, there is your magic "delayed Lenz effect" - you went from a "no load" condition to a "load" condition and the rotor speeded up.

What's really happening is that you are failing to make proper measurements.  When the coil is shorted out, current circulates through the resistive wire of the coil and that is a load.   When you attach a load resistor to the coil, now the load has changed to the wire resistance plus the load resistor.

Now, in both cases above you can add a small current sensing resistor and measure the RMS voltage across the current sensing resistor.  Then you can calculate the power dissipation in the coil for both cases.

Here is the "surprise":   When you add the load resistor, LESS power is dissipated in the (coil + load resistor) as compared to the coil only.   That is the reason the rotor increases in RPM.

You can see how ironic the whole thing is.   Somebody says, "Wow, I add a load resistor and I increase my output power and the rotor speeds up!  You don't see this in the 'science books.'  This is outside of normal electronics."   

The experimenter thinks that his "rotor is speeding up under load" when in fact the TRUTH is that the rotor is speeding up because you are REDUCING the load on the rotor.  In other words, what is being observed is making perfect sense.  Nothing out of the ordinary is taking place.

Now, when you see people playing with pulse motors and spinning magnets on rotors driving pick-up coils, how often do you see someone attempting to measure the power dissipated in the pick-up coil itself?   The answer is almost never, and that is the root of the problem.  You cannot take anything for granted.  You have to make proper measurements.  In cases like this, all that you really need is a half-decent true-RMS multimeter and you can make the required measurements.

The term "delayed Lenz effect" is false, it doesn't even exist.  It's been around for a couple of years and it results in people leading themselves down a garden path.

MileHigh
I'm not seeing speed increases but I'm not detecting extra load atm. Lots more measurements to make tho. I think the lenz effect just isnt getting in the way of the rotor.

Jimboot

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #358 on: December 10, 2014, 11:19:15 AM »
hey guys. I watched a lot of educational institutional vids last night on Lenz. I couldn't find anything though that showed the science behind what happens to lenz when you pass laminated steel past a mag and you have a pu coil the other side of the mag. My exp would suggest it's just not getting in the way of the rotor, so no extra load or slow down. I really need to understand now more about gen coils. I'm beginning to grasp that small wires will give me high volts low amps and bigger wire the opposite. i'm trying to work out the best coil for my rig and I'm very familiar with the lenz effect given the amount of PMs I've built, I'm not seeing it here though.

T-1000

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Re: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )
« Reply #359 on: December 10, 2014, 11:40:10 AM »
In experiments with alternating magnets passing by coils the coil responses are different from stationary magnetic polarities passing coils. This is what Jim, me and some other people are experiencing when setting up the test cases in experiments. Some people might deny that and flood another 1000 forum pages stating opposite without making experiment but that is not going to change behavior of coils in that scenario.
My concept which is laid out in my posts here have grounds on experiments and it is not a just  theory anymore...

Cheers!