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Author Topic: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power  (Read 172609 times)

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #375 on: September 29, 2014, 01:00:39 AM »
Hi Gyula,

the measured coil capacitance between strands is 59nf and each strand has 3.2mH with coil moved to center to 3.9mH with coil at end. DC resistance of each strand is 1.4 Ohms
Cannot measure series Inductance with my good meter and have no other meter that works

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #376 on: September 29, 2014, 01:58:21 AM »
Yes must be because the input is a capacitive discharge compared to the previous test was continuous DC pull force test

I've also noticed the coil holds up a little longer when connected in series. Maybe it's the small coil capacitance? or maybe it's just the coil has more inductance so now the generator effect is more as the coil drops down with gravity and tries to charge the cap bank in opposite polarity?

Luc

Hey Luc

I agree with Gyula that most likely the resistance change would have a difference in drain time of the cap.  I would recommend a constant dc input, using caps to stiffen the supply, trying to maintain solid input to either coil for these tests. 

The effect of capacitance of the bifi increases with voltage increase. The higher the voltage, the acceptance of that voltage by the bifi gets better, overcoming the bifi inductance, as suggested in Teslas pat for electromagnets.  Would be interesting to see 100v - 500v cap discharge into each version of the coil. ;) Just for the heck of it.

Gota do laundry.  ;D

Mags

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #377 on: September 29, 2014, 02:17:15 AM »

If you suspect the increased generator effect of the series coil configuration is also to blame for the little longer holding time then consider to include a diode in series with the capacitor with forward direction to the discharge process i.e. lifting, so it will block any reverse voltage hence current in the falling phase of the coils.

Gyula

Hi Gyula,

I did place a diode between my 7170uf electrolytic capacitor and the coil but all that does is charge the cap to an negative value when the coil starts to fall back down since the current is going in the opposite direction when it fall.
Cap starts at +10vdc and coil travels up 12.3mm then the cap goes Negative as the coil starts falling back down and cap charges to minus -6.72vdc

The cap being electrolytic don't hold the negative charge too well but only loose about 1vdc.

Make a recovery system though!

Maybe if I use AC caps it would be more efficient?

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #377 on: September 29, 2014, 02:17:15 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #378 on: September 29, 2014, 02:30:14 AM »
Hey Luc

I agree with Gyula that most likely the resistance change would have a difference in drain time of the cap.  I would recommend a constant dc input, using caps to stiffen the supply, trying to maintain solid input to either coil for these tests. 

The effect of capacitance of the bifi increases with voltage increase. The higher the voltage, the acceptance of that voltage by the bifi gets better, overcoming the bifi inductance, as suggested in Teslas pat for electromagnets.  Would be interesting to see 100v - 500v cap discharge into each version of the coil. ;) Just for the heck of it.

Gota do laundry.  ;D

Mags

Hi Mags

I think I understand what the benefit of "overcoming the bifi inductance" would be but if you don't mind I would like to get your version of the benefit... once you have time between loads that is

Luc


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #379 on: September 29, 2014, 03:19:39 AM »
Hi Mags

I think I understand what the benefit of "overcoming the bifi inductance" would be but if you don't mind I would like to get your version of the benefit... once you have time between loads that is

Luc

Just loaded up and headed out to do laundry.

Instead of the slow rise in current due to self inductance of the coil when input is suddenly introduced,  the capacitance draws in the charge of higher voltages faster than lower voltages, producing more prominent impulse rather than slow rise to current peak of a normal wound coil/inductor.

Try a smaller cap at a higher voltage and redo the tests. Unless you have large caps that can handle 100 or more volts. Just for giggles. Into the 1000s of volts, the effect should be more prominent.

Ive been looking at litz wire so I can separate the strands into group pairs of conductors, which will increase the capacitance further. plus litz helps reduce losses due to low radial volume of copper per strand. 

Ok, off I go to spin land.

Mags

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #379 on: September 29, 2014, 03:19:39 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #380 on: September 29, 2014, 03:55:28 AM »
Thanks Mags,

your version of it kind of lines up with mine and was on the list to test.

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #381 on: September 29, 2014, 04:54:34 AM »
Something that just came to mind. Thane wound his coils in a random fashion from what I was told. This would put a lot of empty space in the windings. So would he have been better off winding straight and tight? How much better? Better output than Z shows with increased resistance of adding all the existing 4 wires in series?  There may be more to this, considering the level of output change.  ;D

Mags

Hey Mags,  I forgot to answer this one.
As you may know Thane lives in my city and we've known each other before he was doing the ReGenx thing.
I do some work for him here and there and I can tell you he no longer winds his coils in random. He now takes much care to wind coils tight and keeping strands side by side.
I think you mentioned litz wire, as far as I know that's not a good choice for bifilar coils as the strands are usually twisted.
I think if you don't keep your stands next to each other as you wind and you allow then to cross back and forth you no longer have coil capacitance.

I'm not the only one who thinks along these lines. This was posted by "Farmhand" in a topic at EF

 "Twisting the conductors in multifilar coils then series connecting them
 will increase the inductance when the windings are connected together
 as does any coils inductance increase with more turns and wire, however
 the "capacity" Tesla speaks of is related to the potential difference
 between adjacent turns, which twisting randomizes, a twisted coil is not
 making a coil as Tesla describes in the patent and will not secure the results
 the patent describes. The "self capacitance" is not the "capacity" of the coil.
 The "capacity" of the coil is how much energy it can store."

Just thought I would share that

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #381 on: September 29, 2014, 04:54:34 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #382 on: September 29, 2014, 06:31:04 AM »
Hey Mags,  I forgot to answer this one.
As you may know Thane lives in my city and we've known each other before he was doing the ReGenx thing.
I do some work for him here and there and I can tell you he no longer winds his coils in random. He now takes much care to wind coils tight and keeping strands side by side.
I think you mentioned litz wire, as far as I know that's not a good choice for bifilar coils as the strands are usually twisted.
I think if you don't keep your stands next to each other as you wind and you allow then to cross back and forth you no longer have coil capacitance.

I'm not the only one who thinks along these lines. This was posted by "Farmhand" in a topic at EF

 "Twisting the conductors in multifilar coils then series connecting them
 will increase the inductance when the windings are connected together
 as does any coils inductance increase with more turns and wire, however
 the "capacity" Tesla speaks of is related to the potential difference
 between adjacent turns, which twisting randomizes, a twisted coil is not
 making a coil as Tesla describes in the patent and will not secure the results
 the patent describes. The "self capacitance" is not the "capacity" of the coil.
 The "capacity" of the coil is how much energy it can store."

Just thought I would share that

Luc

Ok, here is my idea behind using litz...

Say we have 20awg mag wire and some 6 strand litz that is equal to 2 of those 20awg wires.

So we wind 2 20 awg wires together as a bifi. If we were to look at a cross section of those 2 wires, we can see that only a very small amount of each wires outer surfaces are in physical contact, and the rest of those surfaces are further away from each other.

lets call 1 of the 2 20 awg strands A and the other B.

Now the 6 strand litz, equal to 2 strands of 20awg, say equal resistance by length.  If we look at the cross section of the 6 strand litz, where half of the strands, are connected at the end of the windings to form 1 of the 20awg wires, and the other 3 strands are the other, sorting the strands so they alternate A and B strands rather than to have an A strand next to an A strand only.
Within that litz bundle, the first thing we should notice is that the surface area of the A and B strands in the litz is greater than the surface area of the 2 20 awg wires. The second is there are more contact areas within the litz of A and B strands than the 2 20 awg wires. 

So there is more possible capacitance between A and B in the litz than there is with the 2 20 awg wires.

We are talking about capacitance between A and adjacent B strands, let alone contact and proximity with other adjacent windings. 

Litz doesnt only come in weave form.  Examples below. 

Just something I had been thinking of for some time.

Mags



Offline synchro1

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #383 on: September 29, 2014, 01:12:07 PM »
Yes must be because the input is a capacitive discharge compared to the previous test was continuous DC pull force test

I've also noticed the coil holds up a little longer when connected in series. Maybe it's the small coil capacitance? or maybe it's just the coil has more inductance so now the generator effect is more as the coil drops down with gravity and tries to charge the cap bank in opposite polarity?

Luc


Everyone's familiar with the concept of time dilation; Light traveling from distant portions of the universe remains non-decayed after billions of years. The electro-gravity wave has supra effects as well. Gravity not only connects matter together in space, it also connects space to time. Gravity connects the present to the future and the past. When we generate a gravity wave, it reaches the outer limits of the universe nearly instantly, which is billions of years in the past. The wave passes through the future as well. Time is a continuum in the 5th dimension:  So the magnet wave not only reaches the ends of the spatial universe, it reaches the limits of time from beginning to end as well. "The coil holding up a little longer" could be a consequence of the coil catching up to the magnet wave it projected into the future.


Tesla, the patentor of the series bifilar coil and theorist of the longitudinal wave, posited Gravity as the cosmological constant and originated the insight outlined above. Tesla thought Einstein's "Special theory of relativity" was incomplete without his notion of "Eather".   
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 05:08:35 PM by synchro1 »

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #383 on: September 29, 2014, 01:12:07 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #384 on: September 29, 2014, 02:10:35 PM »
Hi Luc,

Yes, the use of the series diode does not block the backward flowing current just because the induced current's  direction (when the coil is falling down in your test setup) is such that it biases the diode to conduct again, sorry I did not fully consider this.
Sure, the use of AC type capacitor could be helpful to receive the opposite polarity without a problem but finding several thousand uF AC caps is not easy and not cheap. There is a way though to "build" an AC cap from normal electrolytic DC caps by using two diodes and two electrolytic caps. One method is to connect a diode in series with each electrolytic cap and parallel the two while the other method is to parallel a diode with each electrolytic and then connect them in series, see the attached for the latter method. Here is a link to the first method:
http://www.robkalmeijer.nl/techniek/electronica/radiotechniek/hambladen/radcom/1994/11/page55b/index.html
while I took the attached drawing from this site: http://www.electronicspoint.com/threads/normal-electrolytic-capcitors-as-non-polarized-bipolar-ones-in-ac-circuits.251027/

The voltage and current ratings for the diodes should be chosen to 'survive' the highest peak charging or discharging currents and peak AC voltages of course.

Gyula



Hi Gyula,

I did place a diode between my 7170uf electrolytic capacitor and the coil but all that does is charge the cap to an negative value when the coil starts to fall back down since the current is going in the opposite direction when it fall.
Cap starts at +10vdc and coil travels up 12.3mm then the cap goes Negative as the coil starts falling back down and cap charges to minus -6.72vdc

The cap being electrolytic don't hold the negative charge too well but only loose about 1vdc.

Make a recovery system though!

Maybe if I use AC caps it would be more efficient?

Luc
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 07:27:18 PM by gyulasun »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #385 on: September 29, 2014, 06:55:12 PM »
Ok, here is my idea behind using litz...

Say we have 20awg mag wire and some 6 strand litz that is equal to 2 of those 20awg wires.

So we wind 2 20 awg wires together as a bifi. If we were to look at a cross section of those 2 wires, we can see that only a very small amount of each wires outer surfaces are in physical contact, and the rest of those surfaces are further away from each other.

lets call 1 of the 2 20 awg strands A and the other B.

Now the 6 strand litz, equal to 2 strands of 20awg, say equal resistance by length.  If we look at the cross section of the 6 strand litz, where half of the strands, are connected at the end of the windings to form 1 of the 20awg wires, and the other 3 strands are the other, sorting the strands so they alternate A and B strands rather than to have an A strand next to an A strand only.
Within that litz bundle, the first thing we should notice is that the surface area of the A and B strands in the litz is greater than the surface area of the 2 20 awg wires. The second is there are more contact areas within the litz of A and B strands than the 2 20 awg wires. 

So there is more possible capacitance between A and B in the litz than there is with the 2 20 awg wires.

We are talking about capacitance between A and adjacent B strands, let alone contact and proximity with other adjacent windings. 

Litz doesnt only come in weave form.  Examples below. 

Just something I had been thinking of for some time.

Mags

Thanks Mags for explaining your Litz reasoning.

Worth testing!

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #385 on: September 29, 2014, 06:55:12 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #386 on: September 29, 2014, 06:58:06 PM »
Thanks for all the information Gyula

At this point I'm going to get some AC caps from storage and test with higher voltages

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #387 on: September 30, 2014, 03:17:01 AM »
Well, not much luck finding anything with the coil connected in bifilar series and using high voltage discharges. Voltage and Current seem to be in phase.
The current sensing resistor is a carbon 1 ohm 1% resistor. Voltage probe is no.1 (green) and current probe is no. 2 (yellow)

The Scope shots below range from 50vdc to 1000vdc and cap value from 16.66uf from 50 to 250vdc, 10.16fuf rom 300 to 800vdc and 3.44uf for 1000vdc
Each pic title has the details. The recovery is from the diode as the coil falls back.
I did not bother with the coil height measurement for each test as they were all higher Joule energy for the height reached then when using low voltage. Basically, the higher the voltage the more Joule energy it take for the coil to travel up. The coil wants to go up faster as the voltage increase but so does the generator effect increase at the same time. So more and more energy is wasted as voltage goes up.

I'm not going beyond 1kv as the coils wire insulation could be compromised.

Luc

Offline synchro1

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #388 on: September 30, 2014, 05:32:07 PM »
@Gotoluc,

Thanks for trying! One other note in passing; Quote from Norman Wootan:

"Joel and I were successful in isolating and identifying the fundamental Ferromagnetic Resonant Frequency as being around 174.9 KHz".

It might help to use this frequency. The only alternative left after that, would involve rewinding the series bifilar coils to self resonate at the ferromagnetic frequency of 174.9 Khz, and then try pulsing them at the same rate.

One other quote from Norman:

"Doesn't it sound ironic that this freq should fall so close to what the Corums have determined that Tesla designed his big coil out in Colorado springs around"?

Tesla lit 200 incandescent bulbs wirelessly at a distance of 26 miles with his big coil and ground currents!

It appears that Tesla's magnet wave has a power band!

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #389 on: October 01, 2014, 12:12:17 AM »
Hi Luc,

Thanks for showing the waveforms of your tests. I am trying to understand why you said the voltage and current seem to be in phase.

I see it differently, in the very moment of switch-on, the full capacitor voltage is across the coils and the current is zero. As the capacitor discharges (its voltage decreases) the inductor current increases and when the capacitor is fully discharged, the current has increased to its maximum value.
This would mean a at least a 85 degree phase lag for the current versus the voltage, no?
Then the reverse induction (due to the falling coil) starts to charge up the capacitor to an opposite polarity it had at discharge, while the coil current starts reducing, so here we have an increasing voltage versus a decreasing current.
It is okay that when the coil stops moving, the induced voltage becomes nearly zero then zero and the current also will be zero in the end.

Good and informative tests, thanks.

Gyula

 

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