Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 514303
  • *Total Topics: 15303
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 3
  • *Guests: 32
  • *Total: 35

Author Topic: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power  (Read 172021 times)

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7617
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #390 on: October 01, 2014, 12:57:02 AM »
Luc:

Did you consider doing tests where the coils were first connected bifilar, and then you redo the tests with essentially the same coil configuration, but monofilar?  Same number of turns, same gage of wire, etc.  From a cursory observation of what you are doing, there is no logical reason whatsoever for a bifilar coil configuration to be different from a regular coil configuration for this setup.  You basically have a large electromagnet with a large inductance picking up a large weight, and whether the setup be bifilar or monofilar, the coil capacitance will be minuscule and totally insignificant and have absolutely no affects whatsoever on your tests.

The important principle to understand here is to take stock of what actually affects your experiment.  It'd just like the thread about myths and misconceptions for magnets.  There may be a specific narrow set of cases where a bifilar coil will make a difference, but for a brute force electromagnet the expectation would be that a few extra nano or microfarads of capacitance will make absolutely no difference in the performance of the electromagnet.  If you don't agree or believe me then simply run the tests for yourself if you are so inclined.  It's simply not right to see people make clips where they make their coils bifilar when there is no logical reason to do so - it's just another myth.  The inductance of the electromagnet is the elephant in the room.  The capacitance of the electromagnet proportionally might be the size of a fly on the elephant.

With respect to the efficiency of doing the lift, I asked you where all the lost energy went.  Gyula mentioned the resistive losses in the wire which I agree with.  Here is another thing to think about:  As the capacitor discharges it is building up the magnetic field in the coil.  So for a certain number of milliseconds as the capacitor discharges, there are i-squared-R losses in the wire, and energy is going into the coil to build up the magnetic field.  Before the weight even moves, the electromagnet is building up in strength.  So that means you have resistive losses in the wire, and there is energy put into the coil, before the weight even moves.  Both of these components will factor into the losses.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline gotoluc

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3094
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #391 on: October 01, 2014, 12:58:26 AM »
LOL ;D Gyula, at least you're interested and will take the time to comment.

Just checking to see who's awake here ;)

Thanks for your post

Luc

Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3790
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #392 on: October 01, 2014, 01:12:53 AM »
Luc:

Did you consider doing tests where the coils were first connected bifilar, and then you redo the tests with essentially the same coil configuration, but monofilar?  Same number of turns, same gage of wire, etc.  From a cursory observation of what you are doing, there is no logical reason whatsoever for a bifilar coil configuration to be different from a regular coil configuration for this setup.  You basically have a large electromagnet with a large inductance picking up a large weight, and whether the setup be bifilar or monofilar, the coil capacitance will be minuscule and totally insignificant and have absolutely no affects whatsoever on your tests.

The important principle to understand here is to take stock of what actually affects your experiment.  It'd just like the thread about myths and misconceptions for magnets.  There may be a specific narrow set of cases where a bifilar coil will make a difference, but for a brute force electromagnet the expectation would be that a few extra nano or microfarads of capacitance will make absolutely no difference in the performance of the electromagnet.  If you don't agree or believe me then simply run the tests for yourself if you are so inclined.  It's simply not right to see people make clips where they make their coils bifilar when there is no logical reason to do so - it's just another myth.  The inductance of the electromagnet is the elephant in the room.  The capacitance of the electromagnet proportionally might be the size of a fly on the elephant.

With respect to the efficiency of doing the lift, I asked you where all the lost energy went.  Gyula mentioned the resistive losses in the wire which I agree with.  Here is another thing to think about:  As the capacitor discharges it is building up the magnetic field in the coil.  So for a certain number of milliseconds as the capacitor discharges, there are i-squared-R losses in the wire, and energy is going into the coil to build up the magnetic field.  Before the weight even moves, the electromagnet is building up in strength.  So that means you have resistive losses in the wire, and there is energy put into the coil, before the weight even moves.  Both of these components will factor into the losses.


What MileHigh fails to understand is that the series bifilar coil has no magnetic field inside the coil. The coil vectors a monopolar magnet wave like a smoke ring, with the positive pole nested in the center. This field forms outside the coil when pulsed.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #392 on: October 01, 2014, 01:12:53 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7617
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #393 on: October 01, 2014, 01:17:11 AM »
Sorry Synchro1 but that is just another nonsensical fantasy posting.  I don't want to disrupt the thread, but that is the honest rebuttal to your posting.  You have made other fantasy postings in this thread that disrupt what is going on.  I will ignore them from now on.

Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3790
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #394 on: October 01, 2014, 01:21:24 AM »
Sorry Synchro1 but that is just another nonsensical fantasy posting.  I don't want to disrupt the thread, but that is the honest rebuttal to your posting.  You have made other fantasy postings in this thread that disrupt what is going on.  I will ignore them from now on.


You are a supercilious and pompous ignoramus of the first degree!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #394 on: October 01, 2014, 01:21:24 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline gotoluc

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3094
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #395 on: October 01, 2014, 05:36:56 AM »
Hi MH,

Today I found there is a difference between the coil connected in parallel vs series.
In today's tests the best efficiency results for the coil to move up against gravity was with it connected in series. However, I think the gain could be mostly from the boost in Inductance. Gyula suggested a way to measure the Inductance and the results are 8mH vs 30mH in series. So I think this would need to be considered.

Today's tests
All tests done with low voltage.
To maintain a stable low voltage through the coils power stroke, I used a 650F Super Cap fully charged and stable at 2.7vdc 
By using this low voltage the coil moves up slowly and resulted in less losses as these were the most efficient results to date.
Using the coils maximum upward travel stroke of 23.5mm it used 1.2J connected in parallel and 0.94J in series.
If we use the 0.94J and we subtract 0.54J which would be the unity amount needed for the coil to travel 23.5mm (if my calculations are correct?) then we are left with 0.40J under unity.
However, by having the coil travel to the maximum height I was able to collect (in another cap bank) 0.32J as the coil fell back down with most speed.
So if we deduct that we are basically 0.08J under unity.

So it looks like at best around 90% efficiency.

Now that it's confirmed the device is Under Unity, can you please help me to rate it as it's ideal work solution, a Solenoid.
There must be an established protocol to test Push or Pull force vs power and stroke to rate the efficiency of a Solenoid as I've found charts in some solenoids pdf data (see below)

This would be of most help

Thanks

Luc

Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13971
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #396 on: October 01, 2014, 06:00:25 AM »

What MileHigh fails to understand is that the series bifilar coil has no magnetic field inside the coil. The coil vectors a monopolar magnet wave like a smoke ring, with the positive pole nested in the center. This field forms outside the coil when pulsed.
Facepalm.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #396 on: October 01, 2014, 06:00:25 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3790

Offline Magluvin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5772
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #398 on: October 02, 2014, 07:44:57 AM »
Well, not much luck finding anything with the coil connected in bifilar series and using high voltage discharges. Voltage and Current seem to be in phase.
The current sensing resistor is a carbon 1 ohm 1% resistor. Voltage probe is no.1 (green) and current probe is no. 2 (yellow)

The Scope shots below range from 50vdc to 1000vdc and cap value from 16.66uf from 50 to 250vdc, 10.16fuf rom 300 to 800vdc and 3.44uf for 1000vdc
Each pic title has the details. The recovery is from the diode as the coil falls back.
I did not bother with the coil height measurement for each test as they were all higher Joule energy for the height reached then when using low voltage. Basically, the higher the voltage the more Joule energy it take for the coil to travel up. The coil wants to go up faster as the voltage increase but so does the generator effect increase at the same time. So more and more energy is wasted as voltage goes up.

I'm not going beyond 1kv as the coils wire insulation could be compromised.

Luc

hey Luc

Thanks for doing the tests.  So 2.8ohm series coil and 1 ohm current sense.  Do you have a lower ohm resistor?  Say 0.1 ohm or lower?   Just thinking, in the series winding, that resistor is consuming 1/4 of the energy from the cap. And in parallel, .7ohm coil 1 ohm resistor, the resistor is consuming more than half. This will definitely throw off comparisons of the 2 coil setups I think

Like if the resistor wasnt there, then we would have to worry about connecting wires and switch resistance. If there were an inrush discharging into the bifi coil, 1000v/2.8=1357w max possible. At .7ohm coils in parallel, 1000v/.7=2428w,  all just resistance values, inductance is in the way.

Tesla talked about discharging 40kv and getting what, 10000hp. Thats 7.5MW.          If that energy were only for an instant,   7.5MW/40kv=187.5A   40kv/187.5A=213.3ohms  That is if inductance whasnt an impedance. Pun  ;D

Anyway, thanks again. I want to try some things Ive thought of with all this. See if I have time.

I tired and off balance like my text. Just babbling.

Mags





Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #398 on: October 02, 2014, 07:44:57 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline Magluvin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5772
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #399 on: October 02, 2014, 07:57:14 AM »
In other words, its possible that the parallel might outperform distance wise than series if the resistor is not there at all.

Night

Mags

Offline gotoluc

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3094
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #400 on: October 02, 2014, 06:14:23 PM »
In other words, its possible that the parallel might outperform distance wise than series if the resistor is not there at all.

Night

Mags


Good point about the resistor Mags. Wonder why you're the only one who thought of this?
I only used it in my high voltage tests to see the phase difference between voltage and current as the voltage goes up. I couldn't see any.

I'll try it again with 1kv without a resistor and measure the upwards travel distance and retest with a resistor to see how much it changes.

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #400 on: October 02, 2014, 06:14:23 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline gotoluc

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3094
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #401 on: October 02, 2014, 08:22:33 PM »
Hi Mags,

the results are very bad with high voltage :P

With coil connected in series and no resistor the 2.35kg weight raised by 1mm using a 3.44uf ac cap charged to 1000 vdc  = 1.722 Joules

With coil connected in parallel using same cap and charge, the rise was too low to measure.

The low voltage wins hands down with a 23mm rise with 1 Joule input

Luc





Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7617
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #402 on: October 02, 2014, 09:06:53 PM »
Luc:

Parallel/series is not appropriate terminology for what you are doing.  Two wires in parallel to form a coil act like a single wire with less resistance.  Two, three, four or more wires in parallel wrapped around a spool to form a coil are in fact a single wire as far as the coil is concerned.

You have two pieces of wire of equal length.  Each wire makes N turns.  Each wire has R resistance.

When they are in series you have 2N turns, with 2R resistance, and 4 units of inductance.

When they are in parallel you have N turns with 0.5R resistance and 1 unit of inductance.

Let's say each wire gives you 100 turns.  So the simplified description of your test is that you are comparing a 100-turn coil with a 200-turn coil.  That's what you are really doing.  The resistance of the coil is also an important secondary parameter.

The fundamental parameter for the magnetic field strength of a coil is ampere-turns.

When you discuss anything to do with coil experiments the current through the coil and the number of turns are the variables of paramount importance.  The voltage that you drive the coil with is just a means to put current through the coil.  Coils are current-based devices and current is what it is all about.

So again, you are not testing "series vs. parallel."  What you are really testing is 2N turns vs. N turns.

Offline Magluvin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5772
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #403 on: October 03, 2014, 05:37:51 AM »
Parallel and series is just a description of how the 2 side by side windings are connected in each test.

Mags

Offline Khwartz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #404 on: October 05, 2014, 09:13:55 PM »
Hi Mags,

the results are very bad with high voltage :P

With coil connected in series and no resistor the 2.35kg weight raised by 1mm using a 3.44uf ac cap charged to 1000 vdc  = 1.722 Joules

With coil connected in parallel using same cap and charge, the rise was too low to measure.

The low voltage wins hands down with a 23mm rise with 1 Joule input

Luc
Hi Luc! Nice to see you are now fully self-related with these kind of calculations; and nice you now use and share your results on this base! Cheers!  :)

 

OneLink