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Author Topic: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power  (Read 179387 times)

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #360 on: September 28, 2014, 06:54:18 PM »
Hi Mags,

okay I see

The problem with Zeropoint132 test is similar to what I was trying to tell synchro some posts back.
If you wind a coil with many wires together, 4 in this case, the coil ends up being 4 times the size. So now if you energized only one wire all the other stands cause 3 times more space between the energized wire turns and weaken its magnetic field since the turns are not concentrated and as close together as possible.
I'm quite sure if you took the same length of wire and wound it alone in a nice Brooks coil the magnetic field would be stronger then it being spread out like that.
So to me his test is not valid unless he had made a single coil to disprove this possible problem. Better yet, he should of had 4 individual single filar coils and place them one after the other to prove there's a benefit.

Come to think of it, my first Super build test 1 uses one of two strand is possibly suffering of the same problem ::) ... I'll need to recheck that!

Hope you understand?
Let me know if this makes sense

Luc

Hi Mags and all,

I can now confirm what I described above is exactly the problem.

I retested my super build coil by connecting both wires in parallel and the pull force is 2.56Kg. so 60g. better then with the two leads connected in series using the same 0.43 Watt

Luc

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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #361 on: September 28, 2014, 07:35:57 PM »
Hi Mags and all,

I can now confirm what I described above is exactly the problem.

I retested my super build coil by connecting both wires in parallel and the pull force is 2.56Kg. so 60g. better then with the two leads connected in series using the same 0.43 Watt

Luc

Hey Luc
So you reduced the input voltage for the parallel test as compared to the voltage for the series test to come to a common watt figure?

Mags

Offline synchro1

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #362 on: September 28, 2014, 08:00:27 PM »
Tesla projected magnet waves from his series bifilar by impulse. D.C. current adds no magnetic strength to the winding. D.C. coil magnet strength is a function of wire length, thickness, and number of turns regardless of configuration.

I pulsed a tightly wrapped machine shop series bifilar with a welding rod core, and attracted a set of carving knives from far accross the kitchen counter. I ordered a sloppy lash wrapped version from Rick Fredrich, and noticed a dramatic reduction in magnetic strength.

Connecting the power coils series bifilarly, then pulsing them at the self resonant frequency will increase the magnetic strength many times per joule, over the straight D.C. magnet strength!


What the hell is bifilar bipolar?


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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #362 on: September 28, 2014, 08:00:27 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #363 on: September 28, 2014, 08:25:01 PM »
Hey Luc
So you reduced the input voltage for the parallel test as compared to the voltage for the series test to come to a common watt figure?

Mags

Yes, it was 0.63vdc and 0.682 Amp = 0.43 Watt

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #364 on: September 28, 2014, 08:27:48 PM »
Hi everyone,

I just completed the 100% efficiency test on the Super build by using a fixed Joule energy input calculated by Khwartz
post: http://www.overunity.com/8429/mostly-permanent-magnet-motor-with-minimal-input-power/msg418177/#msg418177

W [J] = 2.35 [kg] × ~10 [m.s^-2] × 1/1000 [m]

= 23.5/1000 [kg.m^2.s^-2] = 0.0235 [J]


In my test I placed the Super build vertically so the coil is against gravity.
I used a Capacitor bank which I checked with my Capacitance meter to measure: 7170uf

I charged the 7170uf cap bank to 2.56vdc =  23.5 Millijoules

when the coil was energized by the Capacitor bank it moved up about half of 1mm

If anyone cares to check the numbers and Math to see if all looks right that would be helpful.

Thanks

Luc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #364 on: September 28, 2014, 08:27:48 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #365 on: September 28, 2014, 08:46:34 PM »
Hey Luc
So you reduced the input voltage for the parallel test as compared to the voltage for the series test to come to a common watt figure?

Mags

When compared to running a single coil:

When the coils are in parallel, the resistance of the circuit is basically cut in half (increasing current flow), and likewise when the coils are in series, the circuit resistance is nearly doubled (reducing current flow). 

As far as I have been able to determine, whenever a coil is used directly in a motor, it acts as a generator and limits performance to under unity, due to the generator effect.  (The better the magnetic coupling, the better the efficiency, but it also increases the generator effect limiting performance to under unity).  The device does appear to be a good way to increase magnetic coupling. 

Liberty

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #366 on: September 28, 2014, 08:59:36 PM »
Yes Liberty, you are saying the same thing that I have already posted: http://www.overunity.com/8429/mostly-permanent-magnet-motor-with-minimal-input-power/msg418431/#msg418431

Luc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #366 on: September 28, 2014, 08:59:36 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #367 on: September 28, 2014, 10:04:22 PM »
Luc,

You can make major improvements to your efficiency test.  Can your setup move up one centimeter instead of one millimeter?  You can't eyeball a 1/2 millimeter height increase with more than say +/- 15% accuracy.

I am going to assume that you can do a one centimeter jump up as the basis for the test.  Then all you have to do is adjust the voltage on your capacitor until the jump up is one centimeter.  If you do this properly where you watch a marked reference line on the jumping Super build and see if it comes into alignment with an external reference line that indicates a one centimeter height increase, you should be able to eyeball this to +/- 2% accuracy.  You just have to experiment with different voltages on the capacitor until you find a voltage that causes a one centimeter jump.

Of course when you calculate the the amount of energy in the capacitor it will be larger than the energy required to make the one centimeter jump.  So where did that energy go?  That's all part of the analysis of the experiment.  You should be stating this stuff as part of your conclusions.  I can think of two places right off the bat that would most likely account for most of the lost energy.  Can anybody else?

If you do choose to do this improved experiment then I challenge you to actually report your calculations, including your estimate on the error tolerance, and how you actually estimated that error tolerance.  You didn't follow through on the previous attempt.

Meanwhile my previous challenge to everyone about the issues with the tracking of the variables for the main tests remains ignored.  The more you put into your experimentation, the more you get out of it.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #368 on: September 28, 2014, 10:28:05 PM »
Hi MH,

to raise the 2.325kg coil up 10mm the 7170uf cap bank needs to be charged to 9.3vdc = 310mj

I'm sure these solid steel cores are a cause of some loses

Luc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #368 on: September 28, 2014, 10:28:05 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #369 on: September 28, 2014, 11:03:39 PM »
I'll add that the test above was with the coil connected in bifilar Series since when it was connected in Parallel it needed a little more Joule energy.

So to raise the 2.325kg coil up 10mm

Coil in Series with 7170uf cap @ 9.3vdc = 310.07mj

Coil in Parallel with 7170uf cap @ 9.9vdc = 351.37mj

Luc

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #370 on: September 28, 2014, 11:15:22 PM »
I'll add that the test above was with the coil connected in bifilar Series since when it was connected in Parallel it needed a little more Joule energy.

So to raise the 2.325kg coil up 10mm

Coil in Series with 7170uf cap @ 9.3vdc = 310.07mj

Coil in Parallel with 7170uf cap @ 9.9vdc = 351.37mj

Luc

So this is quite different in terms of input/output as compared to the previous tests, correct? More power needed for parallel than for series bifi?

Mags

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #370 on: September 28, 2014, 11:15:22 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #371 on: September 28, 2014, 11:24:11 PM »
So this is quite different in terms of input/output as compared to the previous tests, correct? More power needed for parallel than for series bifi?

Mags

Yes must be because the input is a capacitive discharge compared to the previous test was continuous DC pull force test

I've also noticed the coil holds up a little longer when connected in series. Maybe it's the small coil capacitance? or maybe it's just the coil has more inductance so now the generator effect is more as the coil drops down with gravity and tries to charge the cap bank in opposite polarity?

Luc

Offline telecom

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #372 on: September 29, 2014, 12:17:29 AM »
Hi Luc,
capacitor will never do the work completely due to the nature of the discharge , IMHO.

This may be the reason why it shows 80 % efficiency.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #373 on: September 29, 2014, 12:18:05 AM »
Hi Luc,

You can check the built-in capacitance between the parallel wires of your coil by using your C meter of course, just leave open all the four wire ends and connect the meter to one wire pair at say the left side, note the C and then repeat this at the right side and note the C, these two ought to be pretty much the same within a few percent.

I believe the series connection holds up a little longer because the discharge time of the capacitor increases a little due to the higher impedance of the series connected coils.

If you suspect the increased generator effect of the series coil configuration is also to blame for the little longer holding time then consider to include a diode in series with the capacitor with forward direction to the discharge process i.e. lifting, so it will block any reverse voltage hence current in the falling phase of the coils.

Regarding losses, there is the I2R heat loss as the most significant,  beside the steel core eddy current loss and the possible saturation loss you mentioned.
Also,  if you had an open magnetic path for the coils, then some stray field loss would also occur (certain part or amount of the coils flux would not participate in the useful lifting direction)  but such loss in your present setup is most likely at a minimum.

Gyula

Offline synchro1

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #374 on: September 29, 2014, 12:45:58 AM »

Yes must be because the input is a capacitive discharge compared to the previous test was continuous DC pull force test

I've also noticed the coil holds up a little longer when connected in series. Maybe it's the small coil capacitance? or maybe it's just the coil has more inductance so now the generator effect is more as the coil drops down with gravity and tries to charge the cap bank in opposite polarity?

Luc


That's what I'm talking about! Luc generated a "Magnet Wave".

 

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