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Author Topic: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power  (Read 171942 times)

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #420 on: October 16, 2014, 07:20:02 PM »
Hi TK,

I had no idea the topic was confusing but I'll sum it up in this one post.

Over five years ago I came up with a unique linear motor design where a coil moves on a steel core between two opposing permanent magnets.

The benefits I found in this design are:
1. The stronger the magnets and the more core surface area, the stronger the push or pull gram force is.
2. The design has no magnet cogging as the cores and magnets don't move.
3. The coils Inductance has next to no change as it moves since it never leaves the core.
4. If designed correctly the coils push or pull gram force is equal throughout the travel stroke.
5. Compared to a standard solenoid my design uses a fraction of the input power, so it can be continuously operated 24/7. A standard solenoid would catch on fire if it tried to continuously push or pull what my design can do.
6. My design offers huge travel distances compared to a standard solenoid.
7. It can be made to travel a 1/4 inch to 4 inches or more if needed while maintaining the same gram force throughout the stroke.

Here is a demo video of how my basic design works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eTQ49RcFKM
Here is a larger magnet version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1dO8qWPQU
Here is a super build version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6pc-XNS9uo

All tests were done with the same digital scale which displays pull gram force in 5 gram increments.

Results of the tests in the same order as the videos above:

no.1 has   250 grams pull force with a continuous 1.2 watt input
no.2 has   500 grams pull force with a continuous 0.43 watt input
no.3 has 2500 grams pull force with a continuous 0.43 watt input

As you can see I'm demonstrating that the pull gram force can be increased by the force of the permanent magnet without increasing the input power. Note that test no.1 has 1.2 watt input and test no.2 has 0.43 watt input which is a 65% reduction in input power but still has double the gram pull force.
Test no.3 has 5 times the gram pull force of test no.2 using the same input power since the core and magnet surface area is 8 times wider.
So obviously not just the force of the magnet can play a part but more core and magnet surface area also increases the push or pull gram force.

This is what I've been trying to demonstrate in a nutshell. However, since this is the Overunity Forum people here are mostly interested in OU possibility rather then an innovation.
So to please everyone I did tests to see if the super build could have OU potential even though I knew it would not since the design also suffers of the generator effect as the coil moves in the permanent magnet field. Since it can only move at a certain speed because the coil generates power as it moves, it fights the input power which is coming in the same direction, so we cannot beat the laws of physics here.

So what I'm saying now is, lets forget about OU and look at this design and compare it to a solenoid since I think it has many advantages (listed above) and could be used in the industry to perform certain tasks that a standard solenoid cannot do.
However, I have no idea how solenoids are rated and I also have no schooling. So I looked around on the net and found a few charts which I posted to see if anyone would help but nothing has come of it.

Hope this clears up the confusion?

BTW, I don't have an off the shelf solenoid to make comparisons with. There must be a way to look at solenoid data to find their performances? so maybe we don't need to physically re-test a solenoid if the manufacture have done it?

Luc
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 04:21:18 AM by gotoluc »

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Offline tinman

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #421 on: October 17, 2014, 02:09:12 AM »
Way to go Luc.
With out a doubt one of the best achievements I have seen on any OU forum-weather it's OU or not.

Brad

Offline Khwartz

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #422 on: October 17, 2014, 03:13:08 AM »
Would be great,  guys that if you speak about "force" you speak about "gram.force" (gf), or "kilogram.force" (kgf) but not just "gram" or "kg", otherwise it is confusing.

See on the charts you provide,  Luc, it is indeed "gf" for the "force" scale. Because if you just speak about "2.5 kg" this then just a mass and this can lead to wrong interpretation of the results. Now that I have seen your vid on the very large one you've just provided, I see it had nothing to do with lifting a mass.

But you're right, even if not OU it may have a industrial interest.

BTW, I would be very happy if "just for the pleasure" you could make a video, Luc, of the energy consumption against de lifting of a mass by cap discharge, like you have done apparently for yourself already: having the numbers is quiet good but seeing the thing been done is great too ;)

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #422 on: October 17, 2014, 03:13:08 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #423 on: October 17, 2014, 03:59:39 AM »
Way to go Luc.
With out a doubt one of the best achievements I have seen on any OU forum-weather it's OU or not.

Brad

Thanks Brad for your positive comment. That means a lot to me coming from a great experimenter like you mate!

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #424 on: October 17, 2014, 04:58:52 AM »
Would be great,  guys that if you speak about "force" you speak about "gram.force" (gf), or "kilogram.force" (kgf) but not just "gram" or "kg", otherwise it is confusing.

See on the charts you provide,  Luc, it is indeed "gf" for the "force" scale. Because if you just speak about "2.5 kg" this then just a mass and this can lead to wrong interpretation of the results. Now that I have seen your vid on the very large one you've just provided, I see it had nothing to do with lifting a mass.

But you're right, even if not OU it may have a industrial interest.

BTW, I would be very happy if "just for the pleasure" you could make a video, Luc, of the energy consumption against de lifting of a mass by cap discharge, like you have done apparently for yourself already: having the numbers is quiet good but seeing the thing been done is great too ;)

I edited my post above to to gram force where it applies.

I did not do a video of the low voltage lift test as MileHigh was complaining of too many videos and not enough test result numbers. So I gave all the numbers instead of doing a video.

I'll see if I can do a video demo also.

Luc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #424 on: October 17, 2014, 04:58:52 AM »
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Offline Khwartz

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #425 on: October 17, 2014, 05:36:22 AM »
Very thanks Luc. :)

On my side I've still continued to work on the different factors which increase the efficiency of a (air) coil, in terms of inductance against power consumption, or flux against power consumption, and with 2 different formulas I just find full opposite results, even not a range where both would have coherent results. Then, I really think only own experiments will do...

Best regards,
Didier.


Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #426 on: October 17, 2014, 08:20:23 PM »
Here is the efficiency test video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zdfBbDarQw

Here is the Math:

Super Cap start Voltage 2.07197vdc x 650F = 1395.244J

Super Cap end Voltage 2.07110vdc x 650F = 1394.073J

= 1.185J used

then we subtract 0.54J which is the unity amount needed for the 2.35kg coil to travel 23.5mm

=  0.645J 

then we subtract 0.334J collected from the recovery cap bank (12.2mF @ 7.4vdc = 0.334J)

we are left with 0.311J under unity

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #426 on: October 17, 2014, 08:20:23 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #427 on: October 18, 2014, 04:04:00 AM »
Here is the efficiency test video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zdfBbDarQw

Here is the Math:

Super Cap start Voltage 2.07197vdc x 650F = 1395.244J

Super Cap end Voltage 2.07110vdc x 650F = 1394.073J

= 1.185J used

then we subtract 0.54J which is the unity amount needed for the 2.35kg coil to travel 23.5mm

=  0.645J 

then we subtract 0.334J collected from the recovery cap bank (12.2mF @ 7.4vdc = 0.334J)

we are left with 0.311J under unity

Ignoring the false precision for the moment, energy E in Joules on a capacitor  is
E = 1/2 (CV2)

So your starting energy in Joules is
E = 1/2(650 F x 2.07197 V x 2.07197 V) = 1395.244396292 Joules.
Ending energy in Joules is
E = 1/2(650 F x 2.07110 V x 2.07110 V) = 1394.07294325 Joules.

You got the right answer even though your stated formula is wrong. Therefore you did not use your stated formula, but actually used the correct one.

It is really difficult to check your work if your answers and your formulae do not agree.

Can you really measure voltage on a capacitor to the tens of microvolts precision? I am jealous.

Offline tinman

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #428 on: October 18, 2014, 04:55:21 AM »
Ignoring the false precision for the moment, energy E in Joules on a capacitor  is
E = 1/2 (CV2)

So your starting energy in Joules is
E = 1/2(650 F x 2.07197 V x 2.07197 V) = 1395.244396292 Joules.
Ending energy in Joules is
E = 1/2(650 F x 2.07110 V x 2.07110 V) = 1394.07294325 Joules.

You got the right answer even though your stated formula is wrong. Therefore you did not use your stated formula, but actually used the correct one.

It is really difficult to check your work if your answers and your formulae do not agree.

Can you really measure voltage on a capacitor to the tens of microvolts precision? I am jealous.
I think Luc was just saying yay amount of volt's in a 650f cap-much like we say 1x bucket of ice cream :D
Do you not have a DMM that can go to the 5th decimal TK ?.

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #428 on: October 18, 2014, 04:55:21 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #429 on: October 18, 2014, 04:58:51 AM »
Here is the efficiency test video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zdfBbDarQw

Here is the Math:

Super Cap start Voltage 2.07197vdc x 650F = 1395.244J

Super Cap end Voltage 2.07110vdc x 650F = 1394.073J

= 1.185J used

then we subtract 0.54J which is the unity amount needed for the 2.35kg coil to travel 23.5mm

=  0.645J 

then we subtract 0.334J collected from the recovery cap bank (12.2mF @ 7.4vdc = 0.334J)

we are left with 0.311J under unity
Luc-why is the coil sliding so slowly up the guide's?. It almost looks as though the slides are coated in honey or something ???. Have you taken into accound the friction on those slides?-there seems to be to much friction there.

P.S-just watched the video again,and even when coming back down it seem'd very slow,regardless of weather or not you where collecting the BEMF. How fast dose it fall with the recapture cap's disconected(free fall)>?

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #430 on: October 18, 2014, 05:03:51 AM »
your formulae do not agree.

Can you really measure voltage on a capacitor to the tens of microvolts precision? I am jealous.
You're not jealous!... you're sarcastic ;)

btw, the meter was on 5 digit display but it can do 6 digits after the decimal point if I select it. However, I didn't think I needed to be that picky, mostly if I'm making no claims!... also, is formulae the correct way to write formula?
 

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #430 on: October 18, 2014, 05:03:51 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #431 on: October 18, 2014, 05:19:30 AM »
Luc-why is the coil sliding so slowly up the guide's?. It almost looks as though the slides are coated in honey or something ??? . Have you taken into accound the friction on those slides?-there seems to be to much friction there.

P.S-just watched the video again,and even when coming back down it seem'd very slow,regardless of weather or not you where collecting the BEMF. How fast dose it fall with the recapture cap's disconected(free fall)>?

Hey Brad,

what you're observing is the generator effect that I've been talking about. When I connect the coil lead to the super cap, as the coil moves up current is also produced in the coil while moving in the powerful magnetic field, so it's also trying to charge the supper cap as it's being fed by the super cap, so it's a slow climb uphill ;D
So you're observing a very noticeable generator effect because of such a strong magnet field the coil is in and why this cannot go to OU.
If only there was a way to have separate power source leads (unlink) to each coil lead, one for positive and one for negative, then the current the coil produces as it moves would have nowhere to go and the coil would move freely. But how could current flow if the positive and negative if they are not linked?
Maybe EV Gray found a way to do that and the link used the environment to complete the circuit by a super abrupt discharge of some kind?

When the coil comes back down, the same thing is going on. It's charging a 12,200uF cap bank from zero to 7.5vdc, so it's fall is being dampened by this load. Without the cap it crashes back down like a falling 2.35kg weight would. The guides are working just fine ;)
I think GM Corvette had shock absorbers working under this principal?... ReGen shock absorbers would be a good option if you have an off road electric racing car.

Hope this clears up the visual effect?

Luc
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 04:48:47 PM by gotoluc »

Offline tinman

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #432 on: October 18, 2014, 03:17:10 PM »
Hey Brad,

what you're observing is the generator effect that I've been talking about. When I connect the coil lead to the super cap, as the coil moves up current is also produced in the coil while moving in that powerful magnetic field, so it's also trying to charge the supper cap as it's being fed by the super cap, so it's a slow climb uphill ;D
So now you're observing a visual of this effect and why this cannot go to OU.
If only there was a way to have separate power source leads (unlink) to each coil lead, one for positive and one for negative, then the current the coil produces as it moves would have no where to go and the coil would move freely. But how could current flow if the positive and negative arn't linked?
Maybe EV Gray found a way to do that and the link is using the environment to complete the circuit by a super abrupt discharge of some kind?

When the coil comes back down the same thing is going on. It's charging a 12,200uF cap bank from zero to 7.5vdc, so it's fall is being dampened by this load. Without the cap it crashes back down like a falling 2.35kg weight would. The guides are working just fine ;)
I think GM Corvette had shock absorbers working under this principal?... ReGen shock absorbers would be a good option if you have an off road electric racing car.

Hope this clears up the visual effect?

Luc
Mmm-ok,so this is working much like the maglev train dose.\
Quote: So now you're observing a visual of this effect and why this cannot go to OU.
If only there was a way to have separate power source lead's.

Wait just a minute there-lets not give up yet,as i believe there is a way to fix this problem. You have done before what is needed here Luc,and now you must do it again.It's time to put the effects of two of your projects together. You need to offset the voltage and current by 180* during the P/in cycle to your coil,so your going to need a pulsed input at the right frequency for your setup. As you know,when you switch of an inductor,the current will keep flowing in the same direction,BUT the voltage polarity will reverse-->If only there was a way to have separate power source lead's.
You dont need seperate lead's,as one set will do both job's,but you have to get the offset and frequency right for that coil.Normally with an air core inductor(coil) you would need a high frequency,but with that strong magnetic field i think the frequency needed would be quite low.

First to nut out a circuit to do the job,then find the right frequency to offset the current and voltage.To do this you need to fully understand as to what happens when an inductors P/in is suddenly cut off when running with a 180* current/voltage offset in the strong magnetic field it is in.This is something i dont remember anyone here ever looking into,or try doing. But i have actually done this myself,although the setup was a little different. I believe i called that particular project the magneformer-not quite sure,as it was some time ago. I remember showing TK my result's at being able to get a 180* offset of current over voltage,and if i remember rightly,he said i was creating a standing wave within the unit.This way i was able to maintain a continuous current flow within the inductor,but charge a cap with an opposite potential than that of my P/in-useing the same two wires. The circuit wasnt all to different to that of the SSG,which basically dose the exact same thing if you look at how the circuit work's-the negative of the charge battery is hooked to the positive of the run battery.

I guess the thing you will need to make this work is a signal generator-do you have one of these?.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #433 on: October 18, 2014, 04:59:06 PM »
Hi Brad,

a 180 degrees phase shift is not an easy thing to get!... but I'll play around with my smaller one inch build as the cores in it are transformer laminations and should work better then the solid steel cores in the Super build.

I'll post what I find

Luc

Offline synchro1

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #434 on: October 20, 2014, 04:40:02 PM »
Take a well wrapped bifilar solenoid coil connected serially with a welding rod core. Hang a steel carving knife by a string. Aim the center of the coil at the dangling knife and pulse it like you would a Leedskalnin device shorting the coil across a 12 volt battery. Watch what happens to the knife. Next, move the coil further away and try it again. This laser dimension magnet wave was broadcasted and received by Tesla at a distance of 40 miles from his downtown laboratory to West Point on line of sight. This was the first wireless transmission in History!. The broadcast and receiver coils were identical and both were grounded. The wave carried power that Tesla believed traveled through the ground! 

I re-discovered this effect by accident as I've recounted in the past: My first shop wound bifilar coil, 350 turns of 22 gauge, with welding rod core slid around ten feet to collide with a cutlery box that was drawn an equal distance along my kitchen counter, from one direct short pulse. The experience was traumatic! The magnetic force produced this way had nothing whatsoever to do with the customary D.C. Joule to coil flux ratios. Try it!
Here's a picture of a magnetic ray:

 

OneLink