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### Author Topic: Magnets, motion and measurement  (Read 126134 times)

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3534
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #435 on: December 28, 2019, 03:20:08 PM »
Ayeaye,

How/why do you conclude overunity from field asymmetry?

1) upon close examination, there is no symmetrical field.
2) symmetry has nothing to do with field conservatism.
3) even though the field is not symmetrical, the two halves are balanced.
as one changes shape or intensity, the other changes inversely to counter it.
i.e. compress one side the other expands, expand one the other contracts.

When one side has a greater intensity the other has a larger ‘volume’
To visualize what happens inside the atoms, look back at your magnetic filings
But not at the end you are looking at.....  look at the ends that are away from the field.
the magnet forces one end to angle towards it
But the opposite end angles away, as if there were a virtual fulcrum in the center of the filing.
Atoms do basically the same thing. The atom is the fulcrum the electron field pivots on.
When you approach a magnet with another magnet the weaker one acts like the iron filings.

You can see this amplified if you set up layers of filings
and observe the induced field from the first layer of filings affect the filings in the next layer
Here you see the actual fields of each bundle of filings pivot with the motion of their group.
Groups of atoms similarly make up the parts of the macro field.

When you observe “field lines”, this is the spacing between rows of groups of atoms
like the lines formed by the mountain peaks of the iron filings.
the lines are actually areas of no field between the field. Like the gaps in Saturn’s rings.
As you move further away from the field, the gaps expand in size and distance between them.
As you compress or contract either side of the field you can see the spacing change
inversely on both sides.

They will never line up perfectly, in a non-superconducting magnet.
(and I have my suspicions that even those can’t be perfectly symmetrical)

the groups in the center are bound more tightly and
pivot less than the groups near the outer surface. Even the earth field can tilt them slightly.
any magnetic field  within miles can have an effect, tiny as it may be.
For this reason, when a magnet is made, one side is slightly stronger.
This is usually the north, as a convention of our winding direction.
Field is stronger on the end opposite from the direction of current flow.
If we wind left-handed the south side will have this defect.
if we magnetize with a static or permanent field, the defect will be a combination of
the defect in the original field and the effects of the earth field.

Also: below the saturation of the material, internal hysteresis will tilt the atom groups
out of alignment. causing further field defect.

The internal energy of the field is the combined effect of the atom groups interacting
with each other and with the outside world.
They are set like a spring. Unless you change the internal energy, they will always give
back what you put into them. Irregardless of symmetry.

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3534
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #436 on: December 28, 2019, 03:22:40 PM »
Edit

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #437 on: December 28, 2019, 06:10:10 PM »
How/why do you conclude overunity from field asymmetry?

By the asymmetry of the magnetic field i mean this. For the simplicity, look only at one pole, consider only attraction, consider only a small piece of magnetic material such as iron, that attracts to the magnet.

When the strength of the magnetic field is somewhat different in different directions near the pole, then do the following. Move the piece of iron towards the pole (radially) where the magnetic filed is stronger. Then near the pole of the magnet, move it to the position where the magnetic field is weaker. Then move it away from the pole. When doing so, we get additional energy, like the speed of the piece of iron increases from the moment when it started to approach the magnet, to the moment when it moved away from the magnet. Assuming that there is some way to move the piece of iron by that trajectory with a very small friction. Right?

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4078
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #438 on: December 28, 2019, 09:58:43 PM »
ayeaye:

Now you try to whitewash yourself but nobody is your mindreader, what you wrote is what counts. And this is what you wrote:

So you say, then there will be no balancing. Right but, the matter is, magnet can at the same time work as a magnet, and its magnetic material work as a shield. And this magnetic material in the magnet does the shielding, not the magnetic field. The way it shields is then in principle not different from a piece of iron, the only difference then is that it in addition to that woks as a magnet.

And I explained that permanent magnets have a permeability of near to one, which involves a negligibly small response to outside fields from the magnetic material point of view.
It is obvious that in case of a weak magnet the permeability will increase to way higher than 1  i.e. its magnetic material may start to show an increased response to outside magnetic fields. BUT you did not write about weak magnets above and now you come along with a weak magnet example!  LOL

I finish this topic with you, no sense to continue.

Gyula

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3534
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #439 on: December 29, 2019, 12:23:54 AM »
By the asymmetry of the magnetic field i mean this. For the simplicity, look only at one pole, consider only attraction, consider only a small piece of magnetic material such as iron, that attracts to the magnet.

When the strength of the magnetic field is somewhat different in different directions near the pole, then do the following. Move the piece of iron towards the pole (radially) where the magnetic filed is stronger. Then near the pole of the magnet, move it to the position where the magnetic field is weaker. Then move it away from the pole. When doing so, we get additional energy, like the speed of the piece of iron increases from the moment when it started to approach the magnet, to the moment when it moved away from the magnet. Assuming that there is some way to move the piece of iron by that trajectory with a very small friction. Right?

What you are saying is you “feel” the iron being pushed away from the inducing field at certain
angles of departure?

Or that you “feel” less pull on the way out than on the way in?

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #440 on: December 29, 2019, 09:25:56 AM »
BUT you did not write about weak magnets above and now you come along with a weak magnet example!

End this meaningless verbal game please, this has no value for anyone. Not saying weak doesn't mean that i meant very strong, obviously it doesn't.

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #441 on: December 29, 2019, 09:35:26 AM »
Or that you “feel” less pull on the way out than on the way in?

Yes exactly. That the stronger pull on the way in gives it more energy than the weaker pull on the way out, opposite to its direction of movement, takes from it. Thus a net energy gain. Like a speed gain. What moves on the drawing below is just some iron object.

And it may even be possible in some straight path, as my experiment shows.

#### shylo

• Hero Member
• Posts: 540
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #442 on: December 29, 2019, 12:00:11 PM »
Yes, the pull in is greater than the out but,
You use the gain to move from where you went in (2 o-clock)to where you exit(12 o-clock).
artv

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #443 on: December 29, 2019, 12:25:24 PM »
You use the gain to move from where you went in (2 o-clock)to where you exit(12 o-clock).

No, when the force is radial, then moving near the pole takes no energy, as the force is then always perpendicular to the path.

#### Floor

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2254
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #444 on: December 30, 2019, 10:58:03 PM »
This is a conservative evaluation of the ratio of, the work in  to  the work out, of the magnet interaction set,
demonstrated in the "amazeing.mpg" video.         @ https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

OUTPUT

11 mm = the thickness of the shield magnet plus a small gap on each side.

Repelling force available between the output magnets at 11mm = 156g

Repelling force available at 40mm = 15g  (Max. distance at which the force between the output magnets was measured in this run).

Average force through the output stroke is very conservatively 40 g

I arrived at this 40 gram value by using a graph of the force to distance, which is from a previous measurement set,
of the ceramic magnets I use (orientated edge to edge).  The slope of that graph, actually gives a 75 gram average force
value for the magnets if  / when the force is 156 grams at an 11 mm distance between the output magnets and the force
is 29 g when they are at a 40 mm distance.  I underestimated from 75 grams average force because I didn't do a complete
set of measurements at this time.  This is an anti-fudge factor.  It is toward   non O.U.   results by 47 %  (40g is only 53 % of 75g).
................................................................
40g = 0.392N

40mm - 11mm  =  29mm = 0.029m  (output magnet's travel)

0.392N  X  0.029m = 0.011368  Joules of output
................................................................
INPUTS  (3)

5g force to motivate the shield magnet

5g = 0.049N
................................................................
1.  0.049N   X   0.048m = 0.002352 J as shield install (1 and 7/8 inch travel (this is the shield magnet's length)
................................................................
2.  0.049N   X   0.048m = 0.002352 J as shield removal (1 and 7/8 inch travel)
................................................................
5g force to motivate the output magnet's return from 40mm to 11mm  (40 - 11 = 29)

5g = 0.049N
................................................................
3.  0.049N   X   0.029m = 0.001421 J as return of the output magnet to start position.
................................................................
0.006125  Joules  = total input

INPUT TO OUTPUT

0.011368  J  /  0.006125  J = 1.856   output is 1.856 times greater than the input

Note... Using a shorter output stroke would also have decreased one of the input stroke lengths (this = less input energy).
A shorter output stroke, would also have kept a larger percentage of the output stroke force, within a higher force region
of the output force curve ? ? ?  There is an optimized output stroke distance, in terms of the ratio of those two displacements.
I'm not at all sure that I achieved that optimization here.

P.S.
OK ayeaye, you have given some explanation of your meaning of asymmetry. Thanks / very good

Not specifically or only about asymmetry of the field as in the overall shape of the field.
But rather.........
about asymmetry in the magnitude of the pulling and or repelling force along a specific direction.

(the magnitude (this is strength in this case) of a force and its direction, together,  are called a vector.
There are other kinds of vectors, not all vectors are force vectors.
for example....  a different kind of vector would be .....
The speed and direction of an airplane, given together are the vector of its travel.

The maximum  "asymmetry"  in magnetic forces around permanent magnets, occurs at 90 degree
relationships between two or more magnets.  0 degrees, 90 degrees, 180 degrees, 270 degrees

peace out
floor

#### Floor

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2254
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #445 on: January 09, 2020, 09:28:03 PM »
This is a design from 2017, Feb.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5d7ip9

It uses only two magnets, is quite powerful and is also one of the earliest of the
designs presented by me (post "Twist Drive" experiments).

Probably over looked by most of the people who check in on /  follow this topic.

What it does is quite simple  (O.U.).   Why it works   is / would  be difficult to to understand,
without a knowledge of the whole trek of this topic under ones belt.

best wishes
floor

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 541
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #446 on: January 10, 2020, 01:47:16 AM »
Yes Floor I remember the twist drive but as I remember about my experiments is resetting for a second cycle takes a good bit of power. I keep saying
1. first we have the set/setup part which is often very easy but requires work in.
2. Then we have the second part which is the power release part. and
3. Last we have the work in to reset so that we can repeat step 1 again.

Am I right Floor about the reset?

After 5 months my doctor finally agreed that my medicine is causing a good bit of my health problems. A little slow on the draw I would say for 6 doctors in the heart group.
Still very busy nursing my wife and keeping up with things. So no time for experimenting yet.

Norman

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #447 on: January 10, 2020, 09:16:35 AM »
Am I right Floor about the reset?

What are you talking about, there is nothing. No measurements, nothing. Not to talk overunity. Certain people (Floor and Citfta, if they are not the same person) want to get rid of me, because i'm inconvenient. I really measured overunity. In another thread.

Norman6538, be silent, don't say anything. See here is a conflict. Overunity is not important, authority is.

Floor, if you have something real, you show by measurements that there is overunity. You have not done that. If you do, i agree. This is what matters. All the talk and writing, no matter how convincing, doesn't matter, when it doesn't provide any evidence of overunity at all. And all the talk that i don't understand, doesn't matter either, sure i can see when overunity is measured, there is no way how i can deny. But so far, i have done it, and you have not.

I asked you to measure that there is no ordinary shielding in your or Cifta's experiment. You did not, i conclude that you cannot show that, and thus hide it. If you really see that you failed, be positive, admit it, and replicate my experiment. Do something good, and all will be good. If good is what you want.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 01:35:23 PM by ayeaye »

#### Floor

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2254
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #448 on: January 10, 2020, 08:44:08 PM »
@Norman6538

The "twist drive"  is a good study / self teaching device.   One can look at it as input by the rotating manet, or as input by the sliding magnet.
Either way it has 3 work  inputs for only one work output.  Except... that there is an attraction along the sliding vector when the two magnets are at right angles.

Do what you need to do.  You guys take care of your self, and don't stress over the topic.

regards
floor

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 541
##### Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #449 on: January 10, 2020, 09:13:55 PM »
Thanks Floor. I think you are on to something so I keep trying but its the measurements that count. I have seen overunity with several permanent magnet setups but not over 200% which is required to have enough extra to do the work in in these 3 steps because everybody has to have a self runner.....they will not accept measurements alone.

1. set
2. take out power
3. reset to repeat step 1.

Norman