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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Floor on November 01, 2016, 02:11:43 AM

Title: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 01, 2016, 02:11:43 AM
Magnets, motion and measurement

This topic is being created for discussion of the conventional scientific
descriptions of

energy
work
force
and power
 
and the methods of their measurement.

ESPECIALLY AS THEY APPLY TO MAGNETIC INTERACTIONS.
................................
It is also for discussion of both the conventional descriptions of magnet interactions
and
new theories observations and so on.

                       floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 05, 2016, 09:29:46 PM
Please find the attached document "MeasPhy(10-N).pdf"

It is still a work in progress.

Corrections are welcome / needed.

Please do not redistribute it.

                  cheers
                    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 26, 2016, 06:52:05 PM
Please find the attached,  next version of the Magnets Motion and Measurement document
"MeasPhy(10-P).pdf".

                  best wishes
                    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 27, 2016, 05:16:07 PM
A special thank you to those who have contributed to / offered corrections to
the project.
                        best wishes
                                floor

Please find the attached file "MeasPhy(10-Q). pdf
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 01, 2016, 09:04:30 PM
@ aal readers

Again

 thank you to those who have contributed to / offered corrections to
the project. I think It's starting to get to a well polished state.

Please discard previous versions and find the attached file "MeasPhy(10-S). pdf
                       
                                floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 09, 2017, 07:04:53 PM
@norman6538

I don't think of "Near Strong / Far weak" as being exceptionally
problematic.

 See the attached file below
 
                  regards
                    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on January 09, 2017, 08:21:18 PM
@norman6538

I don't think of "Near Strong / Far weak" as being exceptionally
problematic.

 See the attached file below
 
                  regards
                    floor




That would be a great way to compensate mechanically. But think of it this way.
When close and like poles first there is a strong push and then a weak push. And
when far and opposite poles there is a weak pull so little work can even get started.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 11, 2017, 02:58:54 AM
@Norman6538

quote
"when far and opposite poles there is a weak pull so little work can even get started" end quote

In the TD (twist drive) pass through 5 version,  it doesn't work that way.

                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 11, 2017, 06:16:49 AM
When you think of near and far, weak and strong
Many combinations can be made magnetically
Approx as many as there are atomic configurations
Perhaps more


A guy came out with a "magnetic tractor beam"
Uses weak (close) forces in combination with
Strong (far) forces
As the interacting field approaches the effective field
of the stronger magnet, the strong force takes over.


The new 3-d printed complex magnets can create a near
infinite combination force domains to customize your fields.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 12, 2017, 11:37:26 PM
Here's a video I found if the tractor beam.
There's literally a near infinite things you can do with this
From the "thors hammer" you can't pick up, to precision
controlled actuators.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hUtnMh0EBBc (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hUtnMh0EBBc)

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on February 09, 2017, 02:05:24 AM
Re Gotoluc measurements:
work = force x distance
I would like  Gotoluc to measure force for each segment of his input
and output dials, and multiply this force by the length of the segment.
Then add them together for the input and output.
This will give us input and output work.
The more segments he has, the more precise would be the calculations.
In fact, he already has everything in place, just needs to do the above
operations.
Regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 09, 2017, 08:01:34 PM
Useful topic, pitty I surf this page without a pdf reader, so I gotta frequently transfer stuff to my old win rig and read it there. A Gif or Png here and there would however not hurt me ^^


When it comes to magnetism, you have to forget all the theories about it, look at your own observations and then start thinking logically.


For instance, the fact that unequal poles link and jetstream in polar axis direction, while equal poles build a barrier at the equilibrium, that is flat like when you press your nose against a glass window and therefor 90 deg "off", compared to the jetstream of eg. N-S, that alone is remarkable.


Theoreticly, you could place two magnets N vs N, a half inch apart, Now take third magnet, position its South between them, right in the middle, like the columbus egg, attracted by both sides the same. By wiggling the third magnet side to side, you maybe can alternate the competitive fluxpaths (3 identic magnets) with little force. Just an idea that went trough my head atm, didn't mean to become off topic.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 11, 2017, 01:31:32 AM
@dieter

              I read your above post some days ago, just didn't get around to
responding.

You are not off topic at all in your post.

This topic is for basic physics (mechanics) discussion, especially as it
applies to magnets....  measuring and understanding .... force, displacement,
work and energy.   Your comments were appreciated.

  regards
        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 11, 2017, 02:44:01 AM
Thanks, Floor!


In one of my brighter moments I recently had a sudden vision the quantummechanical characteristics in magnetism and electricity, that led to the formulation of my theory, which goes beyond currently accepted teachings. I posted it already in an other thread, but would like to repost it here, since it fits the topic so well.


The ambient magnetic field of random equilibrium.
By Dieter Marfurt


Electrons can only move in the conductor if they align their natural spin to the shortest way between the potential diffrence. Thus their normally random spins accummulate. Their spin however produces a gyroscopic force yet to be named, that forces magnetic domains in the molecural/cristalline lattice  into a 90 degree angle. Once the domains are aligned, the "magnetism" will use these domeins like a highway. The Domains are not the magnet, they only rectify the magnetic force that is everywhere, but in a random xyz equilibrium.some materials can keep the domain orientation even after the current stops flowing, and become permanent magnets.[/size]On the other hand, exposing randomly spinning electrons to a magnetic field forces them to spin like a screw until they are out of reach. As free electrons are not really free, but elasticly connected to their original location, they will spin back when the magnetic field is decreasing. Electrons can be rilped off of that elastic connection, causing charge/electron holes, as in semiconductors, at the cost of high energy losses, which is why Tesla's AC won over Edisons DC, because in DC the losses increase tremendously over distance, where in AC electrons rarely lose their connection to their beloved equilubrium condo and basicly just bounce back and forth at a "rubberband".[/size]
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 11, 2017, 03:51:59 AM
Now, how do we make magnets?


By electricity, maybe like my theory says.


Secondly, we can permanently magnetize hard steel with a permanent magnet. So a magnet can make an other magnet. Does the first magnet getting used up or weaker? No, and that is the beauty of it! Forcing magnetic domains in a iron cristal lattice into alignement doesn't require energy in the conventional sense! This can only mean that the ambient magnetic equilibrium is excess energy by its own! Capable of creating further magnets, within the regime of known permeability.


If we can magnetize without energy loss then there is a high probability that we can also demagnetize without energy loss.


So these are the two commonly known methods of making permanent magnets. But there are more ways!


Take a brandnew hammer and a brandnew hardened steel screwdriver. Hold the screwdriver towards a stone ground and hit the hammer heavily on the Screwdriver's handle. You'll notice the tip will become permanently magnetized, so you can lift a nail with it. Due to gravity shockwaves!


You see we got already 3 ways to make a magnetic field and or a PM.


I think it is only a matter of decades, until we discover further ways to achieve this goal, more elegant ways, in which the energy costs are in now way related to the field strength achieved.


Some will argue that it is not true that we do not lose energy when magnetizing by a DC current. But the losses are in fact only the product of the secondary magnetic field, that, by its own, was created without energy as well, it just happens that the secondary field in conventional induction causes the electrons in the conductor to spin the opposite way, thus braking the rotation caused by the potential diffrence and effectively increase the DC rwsistance in the conductor.


Making magnets with DC currents is messy business, like slicing butter with a chainsaw.


So it may be a very important field in science to find new ways of magnetization.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 11, 2017, 04:31:24 AM
@deiter

        I think maybe your theory has some valid elements to it. I don't
have a better one.

      but in contemplating the magnetic field I come up with this model.

A simple mobius strip has only a single 1/2 twist in the ribbon....but also a mobius strip
can have many twists rather than just a 1/2 twist.   

The edges of a twisted ribbon have the form of a double helix.

The forces (torque and tension) are said to tend to seek their most relaxed state at all
points.  but this does not result in an even distribution of twist along the length of the ribbon
within a mobius strip.
             but rather
In the "natural form" of a multi twist mobius strip we find that most of the tight twists lie together...
while also an other section of the strip which has very little twist lies all together (no tight twisting spots to break it up).

              bloch wall
If we look at the field of a permanent magnet, and at an individual  line of force (an idealized
simplification) as having the form of a mobius strip  ...  and we place lines between the two helixs
(like the ladder rung like connections in the DNA molecule)  .... and we assign a N/S magnetic
polarity to these "rungs" like pole next to like pole ...  (all N poles connected to one helix
and all south poles connected to the other helix).  Note... that this does not necessarily result in
like pole in close proximity to each other.  Also consider that there would be other twisted ribbons
all  around in the over all field.

Where the double helix is tightly wound we will find an absence of NET magnetic force, because
N and S forces are in a near balance in any direction from we approach the double helix...except
as we approach it nearly straight on to the end of that double helix.

We have next, then to look at what Theoria Apophasis has termed the dielectric inertial plane
/counter part to the bloch wall.... in the part of the magnetic field which is exterior to the
[permanent magnet.  Lowest density in the field ... largest area.

Also we must again consider multiple force lines ... a gentle spiraling and... spiral ribbon layers
within layers  (shells) .... and also more than one ribbon sharing a single "shell".

I don't know if this model of mine gives you any ideas,  but I hope it may/

        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 11, 2017, 04:36:22 AM
As a Sidenote: I just said the seconary field of induction increases the DC resistance in the conductor and that causes energy loss... not very logical at first glance, right? But if you force the device to maintain the current flow at the same level, regardless of higher resistance, then it makes sense and we understand how energy gets lost.


Anyhow, in any AC operation you also have to deal with the phase shift, but that may lead us to far away from the topic.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 11, 2017, 05:22:55 AM
Very interesting, Floor. Very close to my own interpretation. And good you are focussing on the magnet side, I tend to drift into electrical stuff.


At the nexus of my magnet force rectifier, the bloch wall, may be a focus in which as you said, polarities are so dense that due to molecular scale forces practically equalize.


But is there a particle, the magnetron? That is ejected out of the pole with a slingshot accelleration? But why does it return to the other pole? May there be a particle-pair fission and entanglement? One particle is shot out one side, the other one the other side? As they lose monentum, and repelled by like particles around them, the build the mushroom field, with one goal: to reunite with their entangled brother particle? Maybe.


If there is a helix pattern in the magnetic mechanics, then it must cause a gyroscopic force. That would explain, why electrons interlock with magnetic fields and are forced into rotation... at 90 degree angle...! Wow Floor I think you just put in the missing puzzle piece in my theory. Thanks! We should share that freakin nobel prize I'd say :)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 11, 2017, 05:55:04 AM
Hmm, there is also a further, easier explanation (sorry, on electrons again):


Electrons have a south and north pole, like our planet. Not surprising then, when they align to a magnetic field. But, according to my theory, due to their natural spinning, I call it screw-like, you'd probably say helix-guided, they then propagate in the conductor.


But ok, back to magnetism.


I think the perfect magnetic gate were, if you could sneak your rotor magnet into the bloch wall of the stator magnet and then give it a slight push so it will be repelled. But would that be possible? Just, very basic mechanical challenge? I lean towards Yes. Maybe we could use quantum tunnelling to transfer electrons into the bloch wall, would that be cool? Ok, we'd need the CERN to do the first testrun and maybe a Megawatt. But particle tunneling is real. We can Scotty-like beam particles, jumping like one inch in zero time. And the magnet would shoot out the electron or other particle.


Well just one way to sneak into the bloch wall.


A practical application of the theories is always the thing that's driving me.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 11, 2017, 07:52:55 AM
The DNA helix is a good analogy. If this twisted helix
Leaves one pole and twists around towards the other
The chain of N moving one way, the chain of S moving
The other way
But lots and lots of these that accumulate to the large field
They lock together when you have multiple magnets
And you can bend them, build up pressure, and let them
Explode.
You can even stick the magnets together in a certain way
So they are always under pressure. And adding just one
More magnet, say from a passing rotor or cart,
Can cause them to explode. Magnetically speaking.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 12, 2017, 04:39:33 PM
Interesting position as well, Smoky.


About measurements, one common measurement error is this: people fully charge a Cap, then use it for a brief moment, then calculate the energy consumed by looking at the caps voltage drop, then they say like:
only 0.1V drop from 100.1 to 100.0 vdc, that equals (assuming a 1 farad cap):
1 * ((0.1 * 0.1) /2) = 0.005 joule
But that is totally wrong. What you need to calculate is:
(1*((100.1*100.1)/2)) - (1*((100*100)/2)), equals 10.005 joule.
It makes a huge diffrence whether you drop 0.1v at 100v, or at 1v.
I add this here because this cap measurement method is often used in conjunction with magnetic devices.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 13, 2017, 09:26:06 PM
Hi smOKY 2

QUOTE FROM smOKy 2

"The DNA helix is a good analogy. If this twisted helix
Leaves one pole and twists around towards the other
The chain of N moving one way, the chain of S moving
The other way  "  END QUOTE

Leaves the interior of the permanent magnet via the poles ....
                    yes

Qutoe
"But lots and lots of these that accumulate to the large field"
END QUOTE

           yes and probably in a very structured or organized manner

QUOITE
"They lock together when you have multiple magnets"
END QUOTE
                  yes two or more magnets
QUOTE
"And you can bend them, build up pressure, '
END QUOTE
                             yes we can bend the "lines of flux"
                             and also change their density.

QUOTE
"and let them Explode."
END QUOTE
               don't know what this means


QUOTE
"You can even stick the magnets together in a certain way
So they are always under pressure. And adding just one
More magnet, say from a passing rotor or cart,
Can cause them to explode. Magnetically speaking."
END QUOTE
                 I don't understand what you are saying here either.

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 13, 2017, 09:29:57 PM
@dieter


  no worries... your not off topic.... especially when you return to how
                   it relates to the magnetic component
         
  Nice
           thanks and appreciateion for your perspectives.
             
 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 15, 2017, 04:31:26 AM
Thanks, Floor.


Another interesting observation I wasn't aware of, that I saw in a FEMM simulation, is, assuming FEMM is correct, when you place an iron shield in front of your magnet, the maximum field density that was at the Bloch wall has moved right into the iron bar, which is practicly stealing the field density from the PM.


If you place two PMs N vs S with a gap and in rhe gap the end of an iron bar, in 90deg angle, that' a bit thinner than the gap, both PMs will try to link with the ironbar, but one will eventually win. Depending on which one, the polarity of the iron bar will be swapped. And according to FEMM the iron bar will hold the highest field density.


Now consider we have a setup in which the gap is only 1mm... what enormous field density we have in there, and by moving the iron bar, or rigid sheet by only 0.5mm, well have complete polarity reversal in the iron bar. Although this requires the iron bar contact area to be saturated by one magnet.


Hmm, I got to test this in FEMM.


Yet another interesting observation: two PMs, N vs S, can use the Bloch wall of a third magnet to link their flux, in 90deg to the third magnet. I have no idea why the magnetic domains at the Bloch wall don't react to these forces.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 16, 2017, 09:54:09 PM
@Floor


Ok so you take a large magnet and a 2 small magnets
Put a small one forced opposite to the large
And glue or tape it there so it doesn't fly away
You may have to leave a little gap to get it just right
Depends on the two different magnets
Now when you approach this arrangement with the
Remaining small magnet, there are 3 field encounters
1) the small magnets field
2) the large magnets field
3) the cumulative field formed by the two occupying the
     same space.


By changing their physical orientation you can control how
The two individual fields affect the cumulative field, in such a
way that the warping caused by the approaching small magnet
Causes the cumulative field to change drastically.
This drastic change is like a spring releasing, because the two
magnets (or more) are forced to sit in a way that the cumulative
field is right on the edge of the drastic change. Just a tiny bit more
forcing and the cumulative field reorients itself.


By "explosion" I analogize the effect of a magnetic field change to
the order of tens to thousands of times.
Much more than the required forcing that caused the change.
When the smaller magnet is pulled out (or allowed to repel out)
The cumulative field reverts back to its "springy" state before you
caused the change.


Magnetically speaking, it explodes. (and resets)
The cumulative field will always morph to the gradient
of least resistance.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 16, 2017, 10:00:06 PM
@Dieter


If by "Bloch wall" you mean the neutral line in the 'center'
The dielectric inertial plane contains no net magnetism.
Although all of the flux passes through this region,
the very center has a uniform distribution of density
Thus there are (within a range or band) an equal and opposite
N & S within this region that cancel each other out completely



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 17, 2017, 12:10:46 AM
@smOKY2

Thanks much for the expantion.
          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 17, 2017, 01:56:52 AM
@ Smoky,


what I don't get is why does no flux linking occur?
Normally you would expect any field lines to bend and link to a close unlike pole, so one part of the Bloch wall inhabitants should bend to one external pole, the other part to the other pole.


Intrestingly, that may happen nevertheless, because when you do this with only one expernal magnet then aztracting and repelling forces do cancel eachother out, agreed. But if you use two, eg. a North to the right end of the Bloch wall and a South to the left side, then they stick at the bloch wall.


Even tho, FEMM shows fieldlines, passing right along the bloch wall, It seems more likely to me that the bloch wall itself links to the two poles.
I've noticed these two magnets stick at a lightly offset position, one a bit closer to PM1's North, the other one closer to south.


Here I have some interesting simulation shots that show how you can focus a magnetic field and achieve very high fieldstrengths, simply with an iron core of the right shape.


Notice ontop of this Neo magnet sticks a cylinder of Supermalloy, or pure iron of the same diameter. It's fieldstrength at any place barely reaches that of the permanent magnet, about 1 Tesla.


In the second shot there is a thin iron bar, close to the other end of the PM. Notice the fieldstrength of this bar, that reaches 2 Tesla.


And in the third shot there is still about 1.7 Tesla, despite a rather large airgap.


So shape does matter extremly.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 17, 2017, 07:59:43 PM
@dieter / SmOKY2

On page five of topic below is an    interesting / easy    Mobius strip experiment / explanation.

http://overunity.com/13783/proof-of-overunity-from-magnets-fixture-no-negative-work-aspect-lafonte/msg370730/#msg370730

Addendum.. 

                       ? : If it is neutral to other field lines, why doesn't a given field line just drift away into space ?
          Answer ? : Because it is not neutral... to the randomly polarized atoms in the magnet ?

         field actions (within / around) are not simply between like and un like poles...there is a third element involved
        (other than the electric)    It is the FIELD of the randomly polarized.

       ? If there are interactions between the either / vacuum and organized energy / matter...I seems to me
       that the INTERFACE between these two kinds of (energy ?) occurs through random ness in the
       ordinary / perceivable energy (our world).

I  look at it like this..... that magnet "shape" and the direction of approach between two magnets are both
"a kind of shape".     The one is fixed a constant (for the now)..... the other is a variable.
............................................................................................
I / we.... all  use the language but...

While I consider field lines a valuable and useful convention.... also I don't think of them as real world.....
Like this....

 A peice of lumber that is 2 inches by 4 inches by 48 inches long ....is not actually composed of
some things which we call inches and feet. 

Similarly...I don't hink of that region we call a magnetic field as being a thing, but rather it is a mathematical
construct....  A description of a three dimensional volume in space.. in which events can be measured / compared
in relation to their placement within this drawn 3 dimensions "field".

                              regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 17, 2017, 08:16:58 PM
Of course I totally agree, "field lines" are just useful to display density and orientation within this magnetic shape of gradient vector force. They are simple short terms and I guess you understand what I mean by them.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 17, 2017, 09:17:18 PM
Kind of relating back your DNA analogy
I look at the "field lines" as being a manifestation
Or reflection of individual magnetic field paths
From pole to pole, consisting of a helical construct
Containing oppositely transitioning N and S pole
Flux packets.


Which are, yes, ultimately propagated by individual atoms.
You bring up an interesting point with the 'randomness'
It is important to realize that, as best we try, not all of the
Atoms in our magnetic material are "magnetized" or polarized
In the desired vector. But rather a majority, that causes the
Cumulative field to orient in the desired vector.
By applying magnetic pressure to points along the field
Like from another magnet- you can change the shape of the field
Which is observable as a change in the pathways visible in
the field lines.


Some magneticians use the sense of touch to feel the shape and
intensity. Some use magnetic viewers of various sorts.
The FEMM simulation software generally mimics these patterns.
There is only one person on earth who can really see the field.
He tries to teach us as best he can, the FEMM people could
learn a thing or two about how to upgrade their software.


Until then, "lines" give us a pretty good view of the macro events.
So it usually works.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 18, 2017, 01:05:15 AM
@smOkY2  / Dieter

     I try to make sure that I restate this every now and again...

I am not an expert in magnets nor physics.

     But learning more all the time.
.........................................................
 I have no objections to using a language in common, just don't
want to get trapped in the words is all.

                        regards
                          regards
                            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 18, 2017, 06:23:03 AM
In the essential sense, they are lines. But braided/twisted/helix lines
And very very tiny. We cannot really see them. We see an effect caused by
A multitude of them.  The more complex our viewers, the more "lines" we see.
When we get really good at making viewers, we start to see the real shape and form
that these lines make as they wrap through the field.


https://youtu.be/c-CbKHbH5QA (https://youtu.be/c-CbKHbH5QA)


And this
https://youtu.be/s9AU6IQE1uk (https://youtu.be/s9AU6IQE1uk)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 19, 2017, 04:53:48 PM

The word flux has as one of its meanings ...................."change".
In that context it wouldn't make sense to say ..........."a change in the flux"
                                     or                    ........................"a change in the change" either.

In the context ... directly of magnet fields... there are in general .... several kinds of usage for
the word line. 

1. a line drawn to show a vector direction

2. the number of lines ASSIGNED to specific field density.  (arbitrarily agreed to)
                   (these are the standard which we call "field lines)

3. lines seen when iron filings are sprinkled over a paper covering a magnet.
                   (caused by the polar alignments of the iron pieces their selves) 
                                          (these are not the "field lines" per say)

4. A single line supposed (at least by me), to be helical..... and yes very very tiny indeed.
composed of (some how linked... photons / particle waves)
         (The photon is held by scientific convention to be the intermediary of all electromagnetic events)

5. These helical, photonic, lines, twisting together and taking the form of a....
larger though over all.... less tightly coiled helix ...

These can be can be large enough...to be visible to the human eye (but are not actually visible).

6. regions of low density lines (linear holes) (projections the effects of / from the Bloch walls....not real lines per say)
between the high density compoundly helical photonic structures (lines)

Groups of two kinds of lines (5 and 6)  forming both, higher density (lines) and lower density (holes)
regions in the field...and their effect upon light....is seen in the devices presented in Tehoria's demonstrations.
....................................................
A demonstration of a compoundly helical form.

1. Clamp one end a long (round in cross section) shoe string into a bench vice.
2. twist /spin the free end of the string, by rolling it between the palms of your hands.
The string will (after some amount of twisting) begin to "kink".
3. Do not allow the string to unwind.  Hold the free end between two fingers.
4. With your free hand, pinch /grasp the twisted string between to fingers, (at its middle)
then bring  the free end of the string over to its other end (which is clamped in the vice).
5. Release the middle of the string from your grasp (only the middle).
6 Prevent the ends from untwisting as you remove the one end from the bench vice.

You should now have two helices twisted together.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 19, 2017, 10:02:28 PM
@Dieter
................................
Inside the body of an iron magnet there are three, below, considered, regions.

1. the magnetic polar randomly aligned iron atoms.
2. the magnetic polar aligned iron atoms (magnetic domains)
3. the block walls

The Bloch walls interact with both the random polar elements, and the polar atomic
/ domain elements, but differently with each.

The Bloch wall shields one domain from another in a manner similar to the actions
in pass through TD designs.   Not as a kind of shielding which would simply block the
passage of a magnetic energy flow.  Rather the Bloch wall has polarities distributed
around its circumference, which by the closeness of their proximity to one another,
tend to simultaneously present both attractions and repulsion in near balance) to either
a north or a south pole that approaches the Bloch wall.


The Bloch wall is both the atoms in it and the field it presents.

The polar arrangement of the atoms in a Bloch wall is a helix.

The field around its circumference would not be helical, but more like
a cross hatch (a tick tac toe) complex.

The Bloch walls exist only on the inside of the magnet, their effects extend to out side of
the magnet.

The Bloch wall has no photon "emissions" from its ends which would leave the magnet.
But the wall may effect the external magnetic field  (creates a hole in it).

(

Although I previously stated (in error) that the ends of a Bloch wall (both a N and S
pole is there) reacts magnetically with the exterior elements.  It should have said.... the end is
self sealing / forms a closed magnetic loop.

 Rather it is the helical lines in the field from the domains which readily interact at their ends.
.............................................................
The atom in domains are polar aligned end to end N/S N/S N/S........
The domains are also polar aligned end to end N/S N/S N/S........

The photon "emissions" from domains / magnets, which cause magnetic attraction / repulsion force
are helical.
......................................
All three regions have electric charge interactions (ionic or covalant bonding)
the "chemical". 

And again ...............this is just my take on a model.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 19, 2017, 10:21:45 PM
@Dieter

In regar to compression within the magnetic field...

https://youtu.be/kbDo-40LTkk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbDo-40LTkk

There are lots and lost of related videos.

              floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 19, 2017, 10:53:26 PM
@Dieter

Quote from Dieter

"Yet another interesting observation: two PMs, N vs S, can use the Bloch wall of a third magnet to link their flux, in 90deg to the third magnet. I have no idea why the magnetic domains at the Bloch wall don't react to these forces." 

end quote
..............................................
paraphrased quote....

Two PMs, N vs S, can use a third magnet as a  Bloch wall.

end paraphrased quote
..............................................
They do react.  The net force is zero, because attractions and repulsions are in balance.

They do "react" but  in a magnetic loop ....while exerting little or no external force,
along specific force vectors.....

while also exerting great force in some other force vectors...

but if properly physically restrained.... can not do work / expend energy along those
" some other vectors"....

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 08, 2017, 11:22:39 PM
@ all readers

This latest addition to the magnets motion and measurements project,
is a detailed explanation of how to calculate the work done by a force that is
changing with distance.  (like a magnetic force).


Please find the attached file   "MagnetForceIntegration 2.PDF"

     best wishes
             floor


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on March 10, 2017, 02:23:32 AM
Thanks Floor, downloaded, will read later.


A little thought of mine, that I'd like to share with you just here:


Simple proof for PMs being able to provide overunity:


Take a PM, lay it down on a table, then lay on it a coreless coil, such as a pancake. Now give a brief DC pulse of an exact amount of energy to the coil, so it will be repelled from the PM and jump up a certain height, which you will measure precisely.


Now take a much bigger, stronger PM to replace the one on the table. Do the exact same test again with the coil. The coil jumps higher! Where does the additional energy come from? From the PM! Got any other explanation? Hehe, thought so.


Total repulsion force is that of the coil and that of the PM. Only the PM is virtually inexhaustible.


Based on that thought, we should be able to increase torque solely by adding more PM strength.


Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 10, 2017, 04:55:29 PM
@ All readers

new video.
It shows an effective magnet shield in action.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eg7kk_magnetshield-1_tech

As far as I'm concerned, this is all open source and public domain.
All in common...that's the only real over unity there is. 

     Thanks for all of your good input dieter

                 Peace... Out
                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on March 10, 2017, 07:02:14 PM
Very interesting, Floor. Did you injure your thumb between them magnets? :)


Now as usual, only measurements will tell whether there is any real gain. Which I hope very much.


Maybe you need to do the rasterization of push/pull force at any millimeter of both, shield motion and repulsion of both stacks.


But I take it you mean it when you say it's "very easy" to remove the shield.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 12, 2017, 01:14:21 AM
 @Dieter

A magnet in close proximity to the coil changes the characteristics
of the coil.  The inductance (reluctance at the start of current flow) and
(reactive voltage spike, once  the voltage is turned off)  are both changed. 

It's difficult to demonstrate that precisely the same amount of electrical power
would be transferred in each of the two scenarios.

There are years of argument on the forum over this subject.

This is why I stick to force and displacement by magnets.

These basics physical properties and their measurement can not be disputed  ....
at least not REASONABLY.

          The thumb is doing fine.
              regards
                      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on March 15, 2017, 12:21:28 AM
@Floor, of course, the all PM drive is the Holy Grail of free energy. But I am so desperste, I take everything that brings me closer to the aim.


Collapsing field can be useful, if the coil is turned off right when the magnet passes it eg.: attract by DC pulse, then repell by collapsing fields Back MMF.


Or the Back MMF of collapsing field can be suppressed by a diode.


There is a Lenz drag, but it is a secondary (=weaker) field, opposing not the input power, but the PM, and this only partially.


Whatever science says, never forget: Mankind is stupid and perfectly capable of missing fundamental basics.


Also when it comes to PMs, so it is really the attitude that makes us progressive, inspired or resigning. We crashed on the planet of the apes and we were just told by the ape leaders that "Magnetism" is delusional nonexisting nonsense...


Despite their fancy parade uniforms, I tend to question the truth in every word, coming from those leaders. Because they shaped this world.


Ahh, I' babbling ^^


You know I never lost hope. I may do some alternating hobby activities, so I don't slip into a manic free energy fixation (just because that's not enjoyable), but I never gave up hope. Because hope dies last.


kr
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 18, 2017, 12:22:40 AM
@Dieter

I'm not done yet either.

I'll put together / refine the next section  of the
magnets motion and measurements book (this topic).
That next section will begin with constant force over distance,
and integration of a force changing with distance explanations.
.........................
Then I'll do a presentation of a measurement set of the magnetic force shield,
(in that topic) and also in the (all magnet motor TD based topic).

                regards
                      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 12, 2017, 10:20:20 PM
@All readers

          Here is my most recent revision of part one of the
                  "Magnets motion and measurement"   book.

It is still undergoing revisions and corrections.  The most recent
changes begin at the last section of page 43, and continue through
page 45's upper part.  That new / corrected material gives an explanation of
and breadown down of,  the formula Ek = 1/2 mass x velocity^2.

This is a work in progress.

Corrections to and inputs to the pjoject are welcomed.
Thanks again, to those who have allready contributed.

I now consider part one as complete.

Part 2 is in the works.

                       Please find the attached file "MeasPhy(10-T).pdf file.

                regards
                          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 16, 2017, 09:43:01 PM
Thanks guys for the proof reads...

please find the    most recent ..... attached  "MeasPhy(10-T-b).pdf" file

   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 21, 2017, 07:05:17 PM
Please find the most recent version of part 1 of the "MeasPhy(10-U).pdf" book

As per usual please discard previous versions.

          regards
                   floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 25, 2017, 03:28:17 PM
I'm going to begin posting part 2 of this project.

Below is the final PDF draft of part 1... MeasPhy(10-V).PDF

    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 21, 2017, 07:36:24 PM
This is the latest draft of the Magnets, Motion and Measurement book

                           version "MeasPhy(10-v). pdf" .....  date  (6-21-17)  Part 1

It has only minor revisions, from the last version. 

I have not found any serious errors in the previous version.(10-7-b).pdf.

                                                 BUT

I have made some minor, but worthwhile improvements / clarifications to a few parts of it.

I am working on part 2, and will present it in pieces, as it progresses. 

Part two will begin with "Magnet Force Measurement, Some Methods and Math".

Please discard all previous version of the the project and please do not redistribute it,
as this is still a work in progress.

                      best wishes
                                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: boogyboy1998 on October 23, 2017, 08:00:58 AM
a switch can actually produce electromagnetic interaction. some switch can produce this interaction and cause a great effect in different types of equipment. Like for example, water generator can be used with switched as is may function accordingly to the switch being placed on the generator. This switch https://www.abestmeter.com/thermal-flow-switch/ (https://www.abestmeter.com/thermal-flow-switch/) Digital Thermal Flow Switch can actually produce electromagnetic interaction inside the generator and in the water as well.
 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 25, 2017, 03:25:04 PM
@Boogyboy

Is this the wrong topic you have posted on ?

   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 25, 2017, 03:28:47 PM
Please find the attached file

"MeasPhy(10-w). pdf" .....  date  (10-25-17)  Part 1

                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2017, 08:26:06 PM
         Please find below...
       
              1 PDF file

       the first draft of part 2 of the

   "Magnets Motion and Measurement"  book

   These are first drafts.... please do not redistribute them.

         Feed back / corrections to the project are welcome
         Thanks also...   to those who helped edit/improve part 1
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 03, 2017, 10:21:53 PM
Here is the next piece of  "part 2"  of the "magnets motion and measurement" book.

Please find below.... the attached, inverse Square PDF, file.

As per usual... please do not redistribute the materials, as they are still works in progress.

          best wishes
                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 06, 2017, 03:06:25 AM
I try to make these statements on my topics occasionally.

I am not a expert on these subjects.

Polite, but also preferably direct and straight to the point correction are welcomed.
No guessing games please.

These projects are drafts, please do not redistribute them

Please find the attached "MeasPhy(10-y).pdf

                          best wishes
                                      floor
                                           
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 10, 2017, 06:51:38 PM
This is my last version of part one of the "
magnets Motionand Measurement"
                     book.

I not going to make any further revisions to this "the part 1". 
I am for the present satisfied with all of the corrections of my
wonderful mistakes and missunderstandings (in these contexts).

Anyone may (if they find these explanations satifactory)
redistribute those pages.

Please find the attached file



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: LabDeSyn on December 13, 2017, 05:39:12 PM
It is a pleasure to share my latest project where magnets, motion and measurement are coming together
in a DIY project. The Donut Motor is powered by a 3V lithium cell with a 235 mAh capacity.
The pulse motor runs for 2 years on a single coin cell with a current of 13 uA. It is great to enter my
lab and see this motor running day after day. The investigation is going on to get the current as low I can.
Here is the video of the project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHUPlm5yQ3U

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 13, 2017, 09:08:16 PM

What is it, that you hope to demonstrate with your motor project ?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: LabDeSyn on December 13, 2017, 09:59:41 PM
@Floor, I was hoping the video gives that answer in a practical way. Reading your opening of this thread and your definition of the topic, I anticipate with an apparatus where energy, work, force, power and the methods of their measurement can be in discussion. It is easy to stay in abstractions. I learned a lot about magnets and their interactions by building this pulse motor.
I hope you, and more people at this forum, start building the Donut motor. Maybe we come to a point that conventional scientific descriptions cannot explain the behavior, why this machine, in the near future, can run without any explainable input. That is in short what I hope to demonstrate with my motor project. Any reaction at this project from your side is welcome.


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 15, 2017, 09:04:12 PM
@LabDeSyn

I would prefer it if you will start a seperate topic which is for your Doughnut motor.

In a very general way, almost any thing can be considered in a context of m m and m.

And while a pulse motor is surly more so conected to this topic than... say electro chemistry or
magnetic recording tape, it still remains as essentially off topic.

    best wishes with your project
                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 15, 2017, 09:16:26 PM
Addendum

Measurement of electrical power,  electric motor power consumption,
the complexities of electric wave forms (pulsed or other wise) are beyond
and out side of the scope of this topic.

Investigations as complex as those, can be found in very many of the other topics on this forum.

This topic is under the heading of "mechanical"

Again, please start a topic specific to your project if you wish input / interaction in those
more complex areas.
                               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 15, 2017, 09:18:03 PM
@All readers

     To my mind the purpose of philosophy, is that the individual practitioner shall arrive at .....  understanding the limitations of reason.
     Even at the very beginnings of the undertaking to scientifically examine this world,
we find  implications of an infinity and an eternity all around us, and that we are not truly separate from that eternity.

                            Centuries ago, Galileo pondered action at distance.   
.................................................................................................
                                                Speaking only for myself
     Newton's laws of motion have always seemed incomplete, incorrect, contradictory or simply not possible .... though useful.
...
     Within the texts of the Magnets Motion and Measurement book, part 1,  I make the following statement as well as other paraphrasing / similar statements.

     "An object at rest does not begin to move at some given speed. That object must accelerate in order to reach a given speed."
...
     An object at rest, when it at first begins to accelerate,  must begin to move at SOME speed.

                   If it at first begins to move,  what is that speed at which it first moves ?

                                      Does it accelerate in order to reach that speed ?

                      That speed,  must be greater than zero, if it is any speed at all.

     Can it begin to move at some speed, any speed, even if that speed is infinitely near to zero
with out having accelerated from some other lesser speed ?
     Does an accelerating object at first begin to move at some infinitesimally small speed within
some infinitesimally small amount of time, and does it reach that speed absolutely instantaneously and without acceleration ?

                            Do objects begin their accelerations via quantum leaps ?
...
           Even physic's most exotic "particles", are I think, more common even than dirt.

Is it   or    is it not fact  that ....
the ordinary objects around us are constantly transcending time and space at the sub atomic particle level ?

Is it or is it not a fact that ....
the basis for all events which we observe and from which we take the experiences ,  by which define our own selves, are some how transcendent of time even though in that transcendence, they are the very basis for time ?
...
                                        Peace on Earth good will toward men
                                                                             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 16, 2017, 02:44:35 AM
Is it possible to have an object that is ‘not’ in motion?


Everything we mere humans have observed, is in motion.


Where would we put it, that it would not then be accelerated?


If we did put this “motionless object” somewhere,
Would not that very space be in motion?

This is not considering our own relative motion
(Which could very well be hundreds of thousands of mph)


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 16, 2017, 11:42:56 PM
Hi Sm0ky2

If one is completely stopped....

while the rest of the universe is a linear motion,
it seem then, the universe both approaches, and speeds away some unknown speed.

May be 1/C2 ,  If light speed is the absolute maximum.

If the rest of the universe is in a rotational motion, the closer one is to its center,
the slower any thing nearby is moving.
................................................
But in terms of.....
Picturing an acceleration within a local inertial reference frame....

An object which begins to move from a state of rest, must BEGIN to move at SOME speed.
And it seems to me that, THAT speed must be accelerated to,  absolutely instantaneously, even if
THAT speed is a very slow one.

This (from my perspective) is one reason, why newtons laws remain as only approximations.
Valid in the macro world, and at RELATIVE speeds.... which are much less than the speed of light.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 16, 2017, 11:56:35 PM
The point I was trying to make, is that regardless of our inertial frame
of reference or the relative perspective we view the object from,
It cannot be motionless, by any universal absolute.


Therefore, we must be accelerating the object from some unknown speed
(referenced as 0 only to us), up to some other unknown speed.
(Which we reference as 0+#)


The rate of acceleration is clearly defined.
And not instantaneous.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 26, 2017, 05:30:18 PM
@Smoky2

Interesting points you make.

Yes, we don't know of any thing which can be defined as "motionless, by any universal absolute".
                             however
I cannot say either, that it can    or      "It cannot be motionless, by any universal absolute."
                                but
I doesn't matter, which context ..... "universal"       or      within a local reference frame.
It doesn't matter, which context ......  an absolute / universal speed of zero  or a relative speed of zero
                             The essence of my statements remain unchanged.

It doesn't even matter,  If I had context-ed the acceleration as beginning from some initial value (X),
while within some specific frame of reference............. rather than as (zero) while within some specific frame of reference.
                             The essence of my statements remain unchanged.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 11, 2018, 12:49:16 AM
I spent a little more time on the Magnets Motion and Measurement book (part 1)
and did some clean up and  rearranging.

Please find the attached file below.

             best wishes 
                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 11, 2018, 01:14:15 AM
PLEASE DO NOT DOWNLOAD THE FILE ABOVE

My apologies for having uploaded the wrong file above.  Please do not
bother to download it.  It was mislabeled and is not the latest revision.

Please find instead the latest version below

                 regards
                      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 21, 2018, 07:10:37 PM
I did some more restructureing, clean up, and one minor addition ... to
the  Magnets Motion and Measurement part 1-3.

  Please find the attached Magnets Motion and Measurement part 1-4

The last version was pretty sound, but this version is improved.

    Thanks for your interest. I hope it will serve well.
               best wishes
                        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 12, 2018, 03:18:32 PM

Except for some uncertainties I have about the math processes  ... I feel pretty satisfied with these last
editions.   I have access to a Berkeley mathematics (PHD) (for a fee would check my work)
I would rather keep it in house and for free ... if there is a someone, who would enjoy checking my work for free (doesn't require a PHD).

     Please find the attached  file   "Magnets Motion and Measurement part 1  -  5

This version doesn't significantly differ from the last two.
 
                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 09, 2018, 03:55:28 PM
Minor additions to the last version
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 19, 2018, 09:03:33 PM
The next part of the "Magnets Motion and Measurement" book

Titled "diminishing return"

             best wishes
                       floo
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2018, 11:01:47 PM
The next parts of the Magnets Motion and Measurement book  still part 1
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2018, 11:03:36 PM
more stuff
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2018, 11:04:52 PM
more again
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2018, 11:09:25 PM
more of more
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2018, 11:15:15 PM
Staring at the bottom of the previous page of this topic (page 5)

A lot of new parts to the Magnets Motion and Measurement book besides what is on this page.

All as attached PDF file

           regards
               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 22, 2018, 12:28:27 AM
One might be inclined to feel that a file titled "Magnet Basics" will be of no interest,
but then you might be surprised to (earlier post)

3 more files

         floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 22, 2018, 12:29:08 AM
next part
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 22, 2018, 12:30:24 AM
third of 3 part file

     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 24, 2018, 08:01:49 PM
@ All readers

What's in these PDF files ?
................................................
Simple and easy to understand drawings and explanations.
The how and why of magnets from basics to fairly complex.
................................................
A suggested order of reading

Magnets Motion and Measurement part 1-6-2.PDF
Magnetic force Measurement.PDF
ForceGraphing 2-2c.PDF
Diminishing Return 2-2b.PDF
InverseSquare 1bPn.PDF
InverseSquare 2G2Pn.PDF
MagnetBasicsCombined 1-5.PDF
Mirror Engine 4new 1, 2 and 3 PDF files
La fonte Pseudo Solid Motor V2 PDF
La Fonte Pseudo Solid Explained 7 PDF
................................................
Magnets Motion and Measurement part 1-6-2.PDF

Explains some basic physics and is written for people
interested in doing home experiments related to alternative energy.
In particular, it is written for those who have an interest in magnets
and their interactions.

                        TOPICS COVERED

ENERGY, INERTIAL FRAME OF REFERENCE, SPEED, VELOCITY, GRAVITY, FORCE,
ACCELERATION, THE FORCES OF ACCELERATION,  CONSTANT ACCELERATION,
ACCELERATION BY GRAVITY, INERTIA, MOMENTUM, MASS, WEIGHT, MASS V WEIGHT,
THE NEWTON, WORK, THE JOULE, ASPECT RATIO, TIME, POWER
................................................
Magnetic force Measurement.PDF

How to measure / determine the amount of energy in simple magnet interactions.
Calculating displacement and force inputs and outputs as energy.
................................................
ForceGraphing 2-2c.PDF

Examples of how to calculate the amount of energy in displacement and force
interactions.
................................................
Diminishing Return 2-2b.PDF

Intended to give the home experimenter some idea of how much precision to use
when measuring magnet interactions.
................................................
InverseSquare 1bPn.PDF
InverseSquare 2G2Pn.PDF

A fairly detailed explanation of what the inverse Square law is.

This applies to magnetic force decreasing as the distance from a magnet increases.
................................................
MagnetBasicsCombined 1-5.PDF

Explains magnetic domains, Bloch walls, certain other aspects of magnets which an
experimenter will find useful. Some little known magnet interactions, facts and
explanations. 
................................................
Mirror Engine 4new 1, 2 and 3 PDF files
An informative study of magnets interactions and Over Unity.
................................................
La Fonte Pseudo Solid Motor V2 PDF
A design as explained to me, by user GammaRayBurst at the OverUnity.com forum
To my knowledge, no one has to date, measured the work in to work out of this design.
................................................
La Fonte Pseudo Solid Explained 7 PDF
An interesting and illuminating set of designs, magnet interactions / principles
also as explained by user GammaRayBurst at the OverUnity.com forum.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 25, 2018, 09:00:44 PM
@ all readers

Please find the attached PDF files

Suggested order of reading


RightAngleSlide.PDF
MagneticForceNeutralizer 1.PDF
Rack action.PDF
ForceBalancingVariations.PDF
CombinedNeutralizedUnits.PDF
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 25, 2018, 09:03:19 PM
Two more of the files

      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on September 27, 2018, 01:02:16 AM
Sounds interesting, but have you tried doing the actual measurements ?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 27, 2018, 09:13:23 PM
@Telecom

QUOTE from Telecom
  "Sounds interesting, but have you tried doing the actual measurements ?"
END QUOTE
................. ............. .............. .........

What is it that you find "sounds interesting" about the presentations.

Have you ever presented a similar measurement process, here on the OU forum ?
             If so What measurements would you like to see ?
             If so will you describe for me, a precise set of measurement procedures which
             which would be adequate to hold your attention ?

What tolerances would you consider as adequate and why ?

 

@ All readers

About the PNG file immediately below ........

Don't read it if:
1. you're not in the mood for some deep thinking
2. you're at a location where it might be deemed as inappropriate
    if you are laughing out loud.


             and please
                   remember to share
                       
                                      floor



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 27, 2018, 09:28:10 PM
The file wouldn't upload
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on September 27, 2018, 11:55:15 PM
@Telecom

QUOTE from Telecom
  "Sounds interesting, but have you tried doing the actual measurements ?"
END QUOTE
................. ............. .............. .........

What is it that you find "sounds interesting" about the presentations.

Have you ever presented a similar measurement process, here on the OU forum ?
             If so What measurements would you like to see ?
             If so will you describe for me, a precise set of measurement procedures which
             which would be adequate to hold your attention ?

What tolerances would you consider as adequate and why ?

 

Floor

This is quite obvious, that the interesting part is the ability to turn off  magnetic attraction
(or repulsion) using above mentioned shields.
For example, magnets can produce tremendous output working in one direction, but require the same input to return them into the initial position.
If this input is illuminated using shields, than the problem is resolved.
The simplest would be to compare the effort of inserting and removing the shield with the
work produced by the attraction ( or repulsion).
Since you already have the apparatus in place, this shouldn't be that big of a task.
In order to provide the procedure, I would need to take a closer look at your setup
( but  by no means I consider myself a bigger expert than you in this field, or perhaps another member of this forum).
In terms of the tolerances, they should be within the reasonable precision of the
measuring instrument at hand - I hope that the difference between the input and output
can be easily detected.
Regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 28, 2018, 09:01:28 PM
@Telecom

I'm not an expert, just a learner.

The test bench is knocked down (its modular) pretty easy to set up though.
I'll need to  calibrate  and  level it.
I will also need to fill with water / calibrate my weight sets (bottles).
Before any of this I need to clear my work bench / shop   of other project remnants.

I don't have access to the triple beam balance I used to use, but I have a high precision, reliable, digital scales in its place.
 
The test bed does not have a cross sliding unit.  Consequently I can only do the measurements
by repositioning the magnet sets.  This works fine, just takes a little effort.... and labeling the magnets
so that the same magnets are in their original positions as shield,  stator and sliding magnets respectively.


I'll post once I'm set up.
                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on September 28, 2018, 09:37:56 PM
This looks very good, but ideally your shield magnets should be as thin as possible,
as you've mentioned in the video.
In addition, you can use a variable diameter cams to compensate for non
linear force distribution, I believe you wrote about this option before.
But this will take much more work.
Looking forward for the results.
Regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 08, 2018, 11:13:10 PM
@Telecom

Up date......

I have had house guests, am bogged down with some other tasks right now and hardly spending any time on line.

Please be patient, I have some other measurement sets that are also motivating me toward getting the test bench set back up.


   thanks for your inquiries / suggestions

                     I will respond  as soon as I have something to respond with.

                            regards
                                   flor
 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on October 09, 2018, 10:37:55 PM
Hi Floor,
not to worry,
I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes.
Regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 11, 2018, 10:23:22 PM
@Telecom

       Test bench is set up

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6v9zkz

           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on October 11, 2018, 11:33:34 PM
Both videos say :"explicit content, age restricted".
I wonder where the lower limit is - 65?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 12, 2018, 03:03:24 PM
Sorry I'll try it again
   

 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 12, 2018, 03:12:52 PM
Try this one ...its re named.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6vbmvo
my fault cliked the wrong button at daily motion.com I think  ?

           this one is also working now

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an   
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on October 13, 2018, 06:52:14 PM
Very interesting indeed.
So, in your second video both magnets are in the repulsion mode,
if I understood correctly.
Then, the work of 105 x 22 causes work of 120 x 40 to take place.
Which is basically double of the original effort.
This is puzzling, to say the least...
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 13, 2018, 09:43:41 PM
105 grams by 22 degrees equivalent of fall on the slideing weight

115 grams by 40 degrees of lifting of the rotateing weight.

   cyclically repeatable.

Of corse there coul be a lead weight under the cap of the SL bottle
or a hidden wire or an elctro magnet hidden in the floor or bench.

Some  kind of fakery or its real ?  The only way one can know for certain,
is to see it in person.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on October 15, 2018, 01:19:04 AM
Can you please describe magnets which you've used?
Have you tried different types of the magnets?
Thanks
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 15, 2018, 08:37:54 PM
They are commonly sold at hardware stores. see also ........

https://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg489791/#msg489791

Just in case you are thinking to give credit for this stuff to some fictitious
internet character "floor"... 

Floor has played a role as a kind of translator, draftsman, student and front man, with
our intent to gradually introduce certain understandings into the mass consciousness,
but the facts are.....

We are an elite global consortium of ascended masters, physicists, clergymen, engineers,
bench techs,  house wives, handymen, convenience store clerks, cowboys, Indians and bums. 

We see proof of miracles in the form of everyday life.  We have opened our eyes and choose
light rather darkness, love rather than fear, and freedom rather than taking a side at Armageddon.

The great work is just beginning but this is only because the truth springs eternally
new.  We are the ones we have been waiting for.  The technology itself is barely even
significant.

          peace out
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 29, 2018, 08:05:27 PM

TDForceDiagramed at dailymotion.com

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6vzwz5

          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 29, 2018, 08:48:34 PM
A link to a set of Twist Drive measurements.  They are way over unity.

https://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg491395/#msg491395

........................................
 Landing is launching 

Forward is Over Unity ......... Backward is Under Unity ...  but either way the TD device  not unity.

The device should have a spinning  thingy, or a flashing thingy... 

But it doesn't... it only has a thumping bottle thingy.... and honestly the "undeniable" video is some what misleading.....
When all of the measurements are done ..... they show under unity, not over unity... but launching is landing is launching is landing.

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 30, 2018, 08:10:55 PM
One more TD video

https://dai.ly/x6wfkrm

   I will return to the Mag force shield next.
           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on October 31, 2018, 02:26:49 AM
Thanks Floor,
I'm seriously considering making a similar, but  simplified set up,
just to get a feel of what's going on.
I have a 3d printer, which can help with some custom parts.
Best regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 31, 2018, 06:56:09 PM
@Telecom

Rock on
       floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 02, 2018, 09:47:20 PM
These video links have been giving me fits.

Re posting this link

TDForceDiagramed at dailymotion.com

    at

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d

     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 13, 2018, 09:39:58 PM
Here is a a PDF file "Magnet force shield attraction 11-8-18"

I am building a cross slide module for my test bed.  This magnet orientation / set up uses
pole to pole orientations for the fixed and sliding magnets and a "polar checker board"
configuration for the shield magnet array.   The shield is very effective and output
forces are around 4 times greater than in previous videos.


                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on November 14, 2018, 02:43:02 AM
Here is a a PDF file "Magnet force shield attraction 11-8-18"

I am building a cross slide module for my test bed.  This magnet orientation / set up uses
pole to pole orientations for the fixed and sliding magnets and a "polar checker board"
configuration for the shield magnet array.   The shield is very effective and output
forces are around 4 times greater than in previous videos.


                     floor
Looks very promising, but it would be nice to see the actual measurements.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 19, 2018, 09:59:19 PM


https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xgiez
        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 08:33:02 PM
Looks very promising, but it would be nice to see the actual measurements.

It would be nice to see you put your entitlements in check to.
Got any thing to contribute ?

           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 08:39:32 PM
posted 11/11/18


@Telecom

       Test bench is set up

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6v9zkz

           floor

                   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 08:59:43 PM


https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xihh7

   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on November 20, 2018, 11:01:13 PM
Hi Floor,
I have nothing to contribute yet, unfortunately my 3D printer requires a new print head,
waiting for the part.
Nevertheless, I'm following your progress with an enormous attention.
I want to make my test bed similar to yours to avoid surprises.
Best regards.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 11:41:12 PM


A word to the wise, about inconsistent magnet strengths.


                         https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xinsj7

                         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 11:46:49 PM
video didn't load, try again

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xinsj

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 11:51:03 PM
Hi Floor,
I have nothing to contribute yet, unfortunately my 3D printer requires a new print head,
waiting for the part.
Nevertheless, I'm following your progress with a great attention.
I want to make my test bed similar to yours to avoid surprises.
Best regards.

                Best  regards also
                      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on November 21, 2018, 12:36:09 AM
Here is a a PDF file "Magnet force shield attraction 11-8-18"

I am building a cross slide module for my test bed.  This magnet orientation / set up uses
pole to pole orientations for the fixed and sliding magnets and a "polar checker board"
configuration for the shield magnet array.   The shield is very effective and output
forces are around 4 times greater than in previous videos.


                     floor
would be interesting to know the magnitude of the force of the inserting and removing the sliding shield.
Regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 25, 2018, 03:56:23 PM
short video

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xgiez

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: F6FLT on November 26, 2018, 10:26:15 AM
What is interesting is not only the magnitude of the force, but the work of the force, i. e. the energy.
Force alone is misleading. For example, the force exerted on a magnet sliding away parallel to another magnet is less than the force exerted when the magnets separate perpendicularly. Nevertheless the work is the same.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on November 26, 2018, 11:41:03 PM

Force alone is misleading. For example, the force exerted on a magnet sliding away parallel to another magnet is less than the force exerted when the magnets separate perpendicularly. Nevertheless the work is the same.

I think the other way around, perpendicular separation produces almost no effort.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 27, 2018, 08:42:22 PM
To determine the work / energy expended in simple magnet interactions...

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg525821/#msg525821

etcetera ........
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on December 10, 2018, 06:43:33 PM
posted 11/11/18


                   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an)
Since you posted this at my birthday, i want to make a comment :)
Is the sliding magnet suppose to lift up a bit so it can repel the stationary magnet when they are close to each other?
If so, and when you adjust the slide by reducing friction, you can place a spring where the slide can bounce back after repulsion. The slide magnet has dropped down to initial level at this point.
Then at this position it should not be any forces to prevent the slide to repeat the cycle (??) - just thoughts.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 11, 2018, 11:24:01 PM


QUOTE
"would be interesting to know the magnitude of the force of the inserting and removing the sliding shield."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 04:47:18 AM by telecom »

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

less than 4 grams force is applied
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 11, 2018, 11:25:50 PM
@Vidar

  Sorry I missed your post until now.

    I don't understand your question
         regards
         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on December 12, 2018, 08:17:12 AM
@Vidar

  Sorry I missed your post until now.

    I don't understand your question
         regards
         floor
Neither did I, LOL :) . I missed out something that made my question just dumb. What I asked for, was when you lift the moving magnet up, so more of south poles is facing eachother, you will get repulsion, but the moving magnet is forced down, and not neutral in the vertical plane even if it is neutral in the horizontal plane.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 13, 2018, 08:32:40 PM
Neither did I, LOL :) . I missed out something that made my question just dumb. What I asked for, was when you lift the moving magnet up, so more of south poles is facing eachother, you will get repulsion, but the moving magnet is forced down, and not neutral in the vertical plane even if it is neutral in the horizontal plane.


Vidar

Yes "not neutral in the vertical plane even if it is neutral in the horizontal plane."

Force is present in the vertical direction, but.... there is no work / energy expenditure required in the vertical directions.
Only increased friction upon the sliding track system.  That force can be neutralized by utilization of dual / magnetically isolated / mechanically linked units.

illustrated explained here         https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/169684/

                        regards
                         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on December 14, 2018, 11:47:09 AM
Maybe you should use V-slot wheels which can roll upon the steel rods, instead of sliding bearings? V-slot wheels would decrease friction to almost zero, and easier for you to examine the forces from the magnets. Link to a V slot wheel with ballbearing.
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB15NTULpXXXXcoXVXXq6xXFXXXH/SWMAKER-Openbuilds-5-m-t-Mini-V-Delrin-B-nh-Xe-r-ng-r-c-mini.jpg_640x640.jpg



Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 28, 2018, 08:39:41 PM
Seventeen videos showing how to get energy from magnets cyclically.

https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos

Also the latest design illustration below
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 28, 2018, 08:46:01 PM
@ Allreaders

Beginning on page 5 of this topic there are numerous pdf files that explain these magnet interactions and
how to apply them in order to achieve OU results.

              floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on December 28, 2018, 11:04:47 PM
Seventeen videos showing how to get energy from magnets cyclically.

https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos

Also the latest design illustration below

Would be nice to have something resembling a working drawing with the dimensions and specs for the magnets.
Is it too much to ask for?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 02, 2019, 09:06:08 PM
Would be nice to have something resembling a working drawing with the dimensions and specs for the magnets.
Is it too much to ask for?

So far every request you have made of me... was all ready answered some where in the topics.  Would be nice if you
stopped asking, and read the topics instead....

The exception was perhaps that... I had not stated that 4 grams is the approximate force / movement threshold of the sliding unit.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 02, 2019, 09:09:48 PM
@  Some details of some of the designs.

Please find the attached 2 PDF files below.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on January 02, 2019, 11:25:12 PM
So far every request you have made of me... was all ready answered some where in the topics.  Would be nice if you
stopped asking, and read the topics instead....

The exception was perhaps that... I had not stated that 4 grams is the approximate force / movement threshold of the sliding unit.
Sorry to say that, but I found your diagrams to be very short on detail,
as well as your demos.
For example, even your rack and pinion arrangement looks more like a child scribble.
rather than something people can use to make a working model out of it.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything with the dimensions so far in your posts,
with the exception for the dimensions of the magnets, but not the apparatus itself.
Unless you want it this way.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on January 03, 2019, 01:16:38 AM
Sorry to say that, but I found your diagrams to be very short on detail,
as well as your demos.
For example, even your rack and pinion arrangement looks more like a child scribble.
rather than something people can use to make a working model out of it.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything with the dimensions so far in your posts,
with the exception for the dimensions of the magnets, but not the apparatus itself.
Unless you want it this way.

I am amazed at how ungrateful some people are.  Floor has freely given you a lot of information he has collected by study and actual experiments.  No where have I seen where he suggested he was giving plans for a working device.  He is just freely sharing what he has learned.  It is up to those of us following his work to decide if we want to try and apply what he is FREELY sharing.  Please show some respect for his efforts.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on January 03, 2019, 02:51:31 AM
I am amazed at how ungrateful some people are.  Floor has freely given you a lot of information he has collected by study and actual experiments.  No where have I seen where he suggested he was giving plans for a working device.  He is just freely sharing what he has learned.  It is up to those of us following his work to decide if we want to try and apply what he is FREELY sharing.  Please show some respect for his efforts.

Carroll

This is a forum for a free exchange of the information, and obviously Floor wanted
it this way, to create an exchange of the ideas.
However, based on his materials, I'm not convinced that his ideas have merit.
I've red through his documentation, and still don't understand how his shielding
works.
He says , that it works by the neutralization of forces, but his shield consisting
of the perpendicular magnet just adds an extra forces to the set up,
rather than neutralizing them, even though it may freely move in and out as it
was shown.
On the other hand, a shield consisting of the magnetic material may have problems
of its own, by not being able to  move freely within the setup.
 In other words, more data is needed to substantiate Floor's ideas,
rather than providing prophecies.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: gyulasun on January 03, 2019, 04:52:49 PM
Dear telecom,
sorry to chime in, you say you still do not understand how his shielding works and you are not convinced his ideas have merit.

This being the case, you either obtain some cheap ceramic magnets with the correct magnetic poles and start doing some tests or just abandon his ideas and step on to other designs. If you choose the tinkering way you get into the best position to figure out how one magnet can shield two others and what forces are involved and how to solve the mechanical requirements.  This is the only way for you to understand his setup
Once you understand, you can work from that point even to improve upon it and further develop. 

Happy New Year to you and yours.

Gyula
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on January 03, 2019, 05:44:39 PM
I am amazed at how ungrateful some people are.  Floor has freely given you a lot of information he has collected by study and actual experiments.  No where have I seen where he suggested he was giving plans for a working device.  He is just freely sharing what he has learned.  It is up to those of us following his work to decide if we want to try and apply what he is FREELY sharing.  Please show some respect for his efforts.





Carroll
Thanks,
Carroll I agree with you. I am a bencher and I have boxes and boxes of experiments that I did.
But today we have masses of keyboarders who know it all. I usually say "I don't understand" or
"I did this and these are my results" Without naming the person  I was banned from a group
because I asked questions. I lost all respect for that person - sure had a short fuse the made
a quick explosion.

I have a list of 15 or 20 names that I have great respect for and they do not flare up and call people
names.
Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on January 03, 2019, 07:55:44 PM
Dear telecom,
sorry to chime in, you say you still do not understand how his shielding works and you are not convinced his ideas have merit.

This being the case, you either obtain some cheap ceramic magnets with the correct magnetic poles and start doing some tests or just abandon his ideas and step on to other designs. If you choose the tinkering way you get into the best position to figure out how one magnet can shield two others and what forces are involved and how to solve the mechanical requirements.  This is the only way for you to understand his setup
Once you understand, you can work from that point even to improve upon it and further develop. 

Happy New Year to you and yours.


Gyula

To make long story short, I think magnetic shielding have some merits.
I made a simple contraption and it does appear that it can make a repulsive force much smaller.
See attached.
Happy new year to you as well, Gyula!
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 04, 2019, 11:13:03 PM
To make long story short, I think magnetic shielding have some merits.
I made a simple contraption and it does appear that it can make a repulsive force much smaller.
See attached.
Happy new year to you as well, Gyula!

Thank you Telecom,  your last post / photos are a real contribution.

Not conclusive, but may have shown you that the concepts and designs have enough validity to merit a next step / build.

Some explanation...

A force does not expend and is not an expenditure of energy unless some thing is changed by that force......

Typically that change is described as motion, as a displacement along the direction of the force. 
                                        No motion = no work done and = no energy expended...

As an example consider.....   An auto mobile raised up, upon a lift.    Rotation of it's drive wheels has been completely locked.  The engine is running,
the manual transmission is engaged, but the clutch is not engaged.  Now the clutch is let out.  Once the clutch is engaged, no work / energy is expended by the engine.
Because its engine stops running.  No energy is then expended.   The engine must turn or there is no energy expended.  No motion = no work done and = no energy expended...

During the shielding magnet insertions and removals....  because of near balance between attraction and repulsion no work (nearly so) is done against magnetic forces....
Because forces are not present in the line / direction in which the shield is moved.

There ARE forces at right angles to those motions of the shielding magnet's insertion / removal.  But one does not fight them / and no work is done and no energy is expended
by or against or because of those forces.

This is because work = force times displacement.  If displacement = zero then energy expended also = zero....

There is an increase in friction upon the sliding  track system/s.  But even this increase, can be eliminated by dual / opposing systems.

One expends 1 joule of energy to lift a 102 gram sphere by 1 meter.  It requires no LIFTING ENERGY to move that 102 grams at a right angle to gravity's pull.
One then expends energy.....  only in accelerating that 102 gram sphere (side ways).  That expenditure is then,  only to over come friction  and / or inertia.

                     best wishes
                                   floor




Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 04, 2019, 11:20:19 PM
Corrected drawings of a variation of the force shield designs.

Please find the attached "MagForceShieldAttractFix 2-2.pdf"

                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 07, 2019, 07:47:09 PM
Two files / drawing sets that give some explanations of force direction, force neutralization, energy expenditure as the overcoming inertia......  and energy density

Please find the 2 attached files  "Undesired forces 1.PNG"  and  "LowAccelerationHighForce.PDF"

                     best wishes
                               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 07, 2019, 10:29:27 PM


@ all readers

               Please find below.....     the attached PDF file
   
                                          "LowAccelerationHighForce 2.pdf"

         It contains a correction / change of the previous version "LowAccelerationHighForce.pdf" on the last page (4)

                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 09, 2019, 08:37:13 PM
@ All readers


There are 13 different.... short videos at the link (below),
which demonstrate a variety of these magnet interactions.


            https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos

                        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 11, 2019, 08:19:23 PM
@Telecom

Magnets although they exhibit behaviors which are some times analogous to of levers and springs,
there are major differences in those behaviors.  Effects and / or results are some times startling / unexpected.


          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 15, 2019, 09:27:42 PM


These devices, methods, and designs which are novel are given into the public domain.

The drawings, written descriptions, other texts, and videos are also given into the public domain.

Any use of, including reproduction of, copying of, replication of, distribution of, commercial
manufacture of, sales of, personal use of, is granted, except that any changes or additions made to
the drawings, written descriptions, other texts, and videos must not be attributed to presented
as being of the original form or content of the drawings, written descriptions, other texts, videos or
presentations.  Changes and additions must be clearly indicated as being such.

I assume no responsibility or liability for any application made of these technologies
or devices.

I make no guarantees as to the function ability of any of these devices, methods, and
designs.

Some of the presented devices work as claimed, others do not.  Neither do I assume any
responsibility for any personal injury or property damage, direct or consequential.

I make no guarantees as to the correctness or accuracy of any of the information or
concepts presented.  Some of the information is as claimed, other parts may be
incorrect or incomplete or inaccurate. 

Any choice to distribute the materials is at the sole risk and discretion of any
person distributing them and in so doing that person agrees to assume any
liability for their content or application.

Please find the attached PDF files

"Parallel and Series.PDF"     and     "Parallel and Series x2.PDF"

ALSO a short new video @          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x70pgaf

                        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 15, 2019, 09:52:43 PM
A link  (from 2016)  posted by user LankaTV on another topic

http://license.umn.edu/technologies/20120016_iron-nitride-permanent-magnet-alternative-to-rare-earth-and-neodymium-magnets

                         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 17, 2019, 12:09:53 AM
4 drawings / flow charts

                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 17, 2019, 12:25:26 AM
Sorry... only two ot the drawings would upload
           
                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: gyulasun on January 17, 2019, 12:37:44 AM

Dear Floor,
Probably the problem is the picture size. both your pictures have 2556x3300  pixel mumbers and the horizontal pixel number allowed
for this forum is 900x  only instead of your 2556x
You may wish to use Windows Paint picture Editor to down size the pictures and then reupload them. You can remove the big pictures
when you go to the Modify icon on the upperright hand side corner of your post (scroll horizontally to the end).
Gyula
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 17, 2019, 12:41:41 AM


Attempting shrunken size images

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 17, 2019, 12:44:07 AM
Thank you Gyula
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 18, 2019, 10:12:41 PM
Presented below is a set of interactions limited to 4 magnets.

Use of more than 4 magnets becomes problematic

Please find the attached "problematic.PDF" file attached below.

                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on January 20, 2019, 07:36:18 PM
Magnets and motion :
probably 4d modelling usefull for later real modell comparison

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19851003&CC=DE&NR=3435068A1&KC=A1#

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19720623&CC=FR&NR=2112768A5&KC=A5#

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19970821&CC=DE&NR=19605730A1&KC=A1#
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 24, 2019, 08:08:28 PM
Thank you LankaTV

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 24, 2019, 08:15:53 PM
  One more

        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 24, 2019, 08:34:51 PM
To watch videos of some of these magnet interactions go to https://www.dailymotion.com/us 


Then search for my channel which is   seethisvid

              floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 26, 2019, 12:18:43 AM
This link should take you directly to my channel..

                               https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid

Also....  At the bottom of the previous page of this topic (page 10) there are four pages of diagrams
of a magnet interaction set.  In this design,  BOTH the (ordinarily illustrated as )  shielding magnet group.... and the fixed /output
magnet group produce / output work. 

                     This design / method, approximately DOUBLES THE OUTPUT TO INPUT RATIO of any previous designs.

Please pay especial attention to the MAGNET ORIENTATIONS within the two magnet groups ,  particularly as compared to
the orientations presented in the PDF file "problematic.pdf"  (at the top of this page).

                            regards
                                    floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 26, 2019, 08:05:35 PM
Here are four drwaings diagraming a mode in which output is via magnet attractions.

Output is by two sets of magnets.  Each magnet set is operating as attractions in series.

Operations of these two sets are simultanious to one another.

The output of these two series attractions are combined as a single parallel force output.

                          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 26, 2019, 08:14:23 PM
4 jpegs
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on January 27, 2019, 01:28:09 AM
I think you got some polarity issues in your drawings. Some of the magnets suddenly swap polarity during the cycle. Did I miss out something, or is it just a minor drawing error?


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 27, 2019, 04:17:56 PM
Thanks Vidar

Its an error in the drawing.   The magnets are not supposed to
change in their polar orinetations (or flip).

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 27, 2019, 10:51:36 PM
Here are thos drawings corrected

         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 31, 2019, 11:57:57 PM
Starting on page 5, but ...... specifically on page 6 of this topic are 3 files....


Instead of these 3 files as (ForceGraphing 2-2c numbers 1, 2 and 3 PDF)

here is a lower resolution file, which includes all 3 parts in one file.

I think the materials are easier to follow / the explanation, more fluid, when read in a single
read through. (no interuption while opening the next file).

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 12, 2019, 12:34:09 AM
a video I posted a year or two ago ?, but later took down.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 12, 2019, 08:31:36 PM
Two previously presented methods... the drawings reworked cleaned up.

    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on February 14, 2019, 03:14:28 AM
Nice set up, but it would be useful to measure the actual force of inserting/removing
central magnet.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 14, 2019, 08:38:45 PM
@Telecom

There are no measurements taken by me of that particular magnet interaction set ................
                                                and
if you are referring to this video ? ...... https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9
                                               and these drawings .......  https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/171897/

The operating principles are very similar to these actions / function for the same kind of reasons.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on February 16, 2019, 03:32:28 PM
@Telecom

There are no measurements taken by me of that particular magnet interaction set ................
                                                and
if you are referring to this video ? ...... https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9
                                               and these drawings .......  https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/171897/

The operating principles are very similar to these actions / function for the same kind of reasons.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

                 floor
I like this recent approach for its compactness.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 20, 2019, 07:46:15 PM
@Telecom

There is a lot of force between those two magnet stacks, and with only two magnets as the shield
it is working effectively.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on March 01, 2019, 09:27:47 PM
@Telecom

There is a lot of force between those two magnet stacks, and with only two magnets as the shield
it is working effectively.
stack of the magnets have only 2 poles, not the multiple poles as on the picture.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on March 06, 2019, 12:40:33 AM
The magnetic field of the shield becomes distorted when two main magnets are close by,
this causes resistance when the above shield is removed.
Floor just needs to measure the actual forces at his set up, to see if this arrangement is workable.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on March 06, 2019, 04:00:15 AM
Found some interesting material related to the magnet force measurements.
https://freeenergycommunity.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/kedron_eden_project.pdf
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on March 07, 2019, 06:13:29 PM
Found some interesting material related to the magnet force measurements.
https://freeenergycommunity.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/kedron_eden_project.pdf

There is an explanation there which says that magnet interaction  force is dependent
on the density of the magnetic field in the area.
This is actually similar to a TD drive concept and may explain it.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 21, 2019, 09:46:45 PM
Please find the attached file "MagForShldComplex 2.PDF"

Some drawings cleaned up / combined into a single PDF file.
 

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 28, 2019, 10:07:39 PM
@Telecom

Thanks for posting the link.
        floor
             
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 03, 2019, 11:32:54 PM
Looks like the Kedron "free energy from magnets device" has been disappeared and or proven not to work ?

But their pdf file has some good magnet information.

https://freeenergycommunity.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/kedron_eden_project.pdf

    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on April 04, 2019, 12:03:52 AM
When by" the law of momentum conservation" from action and reaction ever shall exist equivalence ( JLNaudins push&pull experiment shows asymmetry= no equivalence)

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm)
then it is the question where is to the Hildenbrand valve( doubling the flux lines) and Charles Flynn ( halfing the flux lines) force gain/loose reaction !?
doubling flux lines : 4 times the unit force
basic flux line: unit force
halfing the flux lines: 1/4 the unit force


doubling :  https://tesla3.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/zpe_hilden_brand_valve.gif (https://tesla3.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/zpe_hilden_brand_valve.gif)
halfing : https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20020129&CC=US&NR=6342746B1&KC=B1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20020129&CC=US&NR=6342746B1&KC=B1#)


That the input and output transformation process from conventional industrial machines can become improvedshow us this decriptions ( why and how !? explanation )

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Fred+miekka&IN=&CPC=&IC=
For all who are working in "surplus power generating machines" I would advice here " figure 10" study :
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110097209A1/en
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 05, 2019, 11:41:59 PM
@LankaTv

Thanks for the post / links...

Not boasting, but I'm up to at least 5 variations of magnet interactions that yield
more energy out as mechanical work,  than energy input,  as mechanical work.

Most are illustrated on this topic.  Some are explained in video demonstrations as well.

But I have not as yet built a single device which clearly / unambiguously / undeniably demonstrates
these interaction sets as over unity.    Should I or should I not ?
Your opinion please sir.

          best wishes
               floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on April 09, 2019, 04:59:59 PM
Hello floor,

at first I have to correct my " advice" : not figure 10 but " figure12 " the input / output should become studied :

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110097209A1/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110097209A1/en)
From negative C.O.P. to positive C.O.P., min/ max/ average

What is by your work your intention/ motive/ target ?
For example :
apply a demonstration device for the " overunity.com prize award" ?
Satisfying yourself and resolve the  royal academy "axiom"and definition :                                         
                                      ppm is physically not possible ( by given and determed closed cycle-conditioning)
 by  own creativity and intuition- freedome ?
You deliver your work results here and on youtube, my opinion does not make matter !
Wishing you and your work success
OCWL
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 15, 2019, 09:34:34 PM

What is by your work your intention/ motive/ target ?
For example :
apply a demonstration device for the " overunity.com prize award" ?
Satisfying yourself and resolve the  royal academy "axiom"and definition :                                         
                                      ppm is physically not possible ( by given and determed closed cycle-conditioning)
 by  own creativity and intuition- freedome ?
You deliver your work results here and on youtube, my opinion does not make matter !
Wishing you and your work success


Thank you again for your post / link (although the link is interesting it's off topic)

What does "OCWL" mean?

My motivations are a mixture of these and others.   

           Next let me clarify.
My Question to you / request for an opinion from you is in this regard.

Do you think that such devices as I have describe in this topic
            If we take it as a given   .....   that these devices make available mechanical energy ... in excess of the input mechanical energy.
would be of an overall benefit to humanity / planet Earth...
                                       or
would such  a device / devices be just as likely,
                            for example ......
to spawn a war with China over neodymium and so on, as it seems some people, now engage in war
 in order to control the flow or crude oil ?

            regards
                  floor


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on April 16, 2019, 10:21:44 AM
OCWL: my Name Oliver Christoph Waldhelm Lanca

The Solorzano- device is not off-topic following your first topic description.It shows increasing and decline from work to power ratio and positive and negative work performance.Based by magnetic machines, motor and generator.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sENgdSF8ppA (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sENgdSF8ppA1:50)
  1:50+ open coil.    2:23+ closed coil     "resistance". an open/ closed coil switch?

About Neodym : it is the science conflict to search for an alternative for Cobalt-content permanent magnets(AlNiCo)and the decision to use ( as same radioactive) Lanthaniden("rare earth")- Elements like Neodymium and Samarium ( based by Sumituomo Metalls and General Motors reseach and development).

The solution : weaker permanent ceramic ferrite magnets C5/C8 ( - but  later in magnets array configuration - )
Shkondin,  Flynn, Raser Tech development


or as same strong as Neodym magnets :
https://m.phys.org/news/2010-03-iron-nitrogen-compound-strongest-magnet.html (https://m.phys.org/news/2010-03-iron-nitrogen-compound-strongest-magnet.html)
Or: capacitive surges using electro-magnets with Tesla-force range output.
Or/and : permanent magnets and electro- magnets and/ or electro- permanent magnets combination.

Is it possible the " open cycle" gain circuit ? Yes, cause the existent physical asymmetry.With mechanical ( rotative or linear) output or electrical or both.

When actually the price forecast for solar cell energy and batteries - beginning with 2030 is in the 2 cents/KWh range- it will become difficult for inventors and their commercial industrial partners to calculate with "high margin profits" in future !

Sincerely
Oliver CWL
p.s.: " humanity" : there will be no change without conflicts, we will see winning and loosing.
           petrol based economies will be in decline cause enviromental issues ( petrol engines prohibition)       

            and less petrol-based plastics use.( + plastics- recycling)


           Instead copper aluminium and graphene coils/foils use .

           The products in future less maintenance/service-dependent and with longer work- life.

           I do not see China or India as " industrial " conflict :

           it is the 4d-cnc printing technology which let production becomes human-workpower free,     

          no human social costs only material input and KWh- salary.           

          Mini-factories in container-box dimension,  (self-) transportable over land/ sea/air.

          And human- free production management,24/7, ex-/ in-cluded telemetric organisation.
          Wireless communication and wireless energy transmission gives many possibilities.

          No local fixation : for consumer and producer.
         
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on May 08, 2019, 03:19:14 AM
@norman6538

I don't think of "Near Strong / Far weak" as being exceptionally
problematic.

 See the attached file below
 
                  regards
                    floor
That is an excellent writeup Floor. I missed that somehow.
I have used variable levers so I have to see how that applies.
Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 10, 2019, 09:54:40 PM
@Norman6538

Keep on keepen on
          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 14, 2019, 09:18:07 PM
Please find below the attached   "Magnetic force shield repulsion" PDF file.

This is a design all ready presented on this topic ... but those drawings were as functioning
in a magnetic attraction mode.

 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on May 14, 2019, 10:18:16 PM
Looks great Floor but how do you get the middle magnet pushed back in
so the cycle can be repeated? It could be easily inserted from the viewer
when both mags are matched rather than inserting from the end as the
drawing would suggest. And then how do you get the 3rd magnet on the right
to go back so it will repel because it is red to red and black to black..

Also remember closer stronger repel and further weaker repel so the
drawing is correct but that distance is likely not as realistic as it is to the eye.

I was grand parenting for a week and out of action so have to catch up.
Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on May 15, 2019, 08:37:35 PM
Floor I did get your blocking magnets to work when I made it right and it does
slide in and out easily if the sliding magnet goes along the line of the joint between
the two magnets of opposite poles.

Now I need to measure the forces to move vs the output.

In the past I have had several OU devices but to do the feedback and switching
to make it self run it needs about 300% OU. I was never able to get more than
about 250% and Like you I used weights to get accurate measurements.

You sure have an eye for magnets.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 15, 2019, 11:53:14 PM
Hi Norman

The blocking or "shielding" magnet  can be inserted and / or remove without doing work against magnetic forces.
This is because the attraction and repulsion are in balance, but that balance exists along certain lines of travel only.

When the shielding is in place...  the outer magnets are neutral to each other and also neutral to the shielding magnet,
but this absence of force / neutrality  is along a certain line of travel / directions only.

All magnets must be in precise alignment (centered and squared)
All motions must be at precise right angles.

               floor


 


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on May 30, 2019, 10:23:13 PM
Floor I am working on the measurements today. I use two neos in repel mode
about half an inch apart where it has a good bit of repel force. Then I use 2 Radio
Shack ceramic mags with  the hole in the center for the repel canceler.
It has some edge sticky spot problems and is very sensitive to get balanced
so it does not attract nor repel. It clearly looks like it takes less force to release the
repel than the repel force work would do.
Attached is a photo. I have a video of the edge sticky spot but I'll work on the
work out measurements now.

On the right you can see a red line which is where the 2 blocker magnets join
and you can see right below it one of the neos that is held in place by the metal.
On a separate setup I found that 3 washers can be lifted 1/4 inch from 1/2 inch to
3/4 inch. So if the work in is less than that it will be overunity.
Remember this is just rapid prototype and crude testing of the basic principle so
don't laugh at it.

My measurements are 150% out for 100 in. Which is OU but when you have to
reset the device to repeat the work multiplied it will not have enough extra to do
that which agrees with other OU devices that I have made. So unless the work in
or work out can be increased it will not self run.

But Floor you have worked diligently and found another permanent magnet OU
device.
Floor, with your skills I believe you can improve that to maybe 200 or 250%.
The problem is you need a small gap to get max repel work out.
And that takes precise embodiment.


Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on May 31, 2019, 04:26:50 PM
I tweaked the balance today and got it up to 1.92 OU - in work = 1  out work = 1.92
and it takes less to move it back so there is a good bit of hope on this.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 31, 2019, 08:10:27 PM
@Norman6538

High precision in alignment
         and
equality of the strength of the magnets used
       are critical to the functioning.

The shielding magnet needs to be roughly the field strength
equivalent of the fixed and output magnets combined.

         best wishes
                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 01, 2019, 01:08:45 AM
Floor, yes I realize equal magnets are crucial but the ceramic shield
does work due to the distance and they are thinner than the domino mags.
I use 3/8 in neos which reach far but are smaller than the ceramics.
I had no square neos to use.
And since the reset takes less work it just might self run.

If that works then ganging them together would create some
significant work out.
As Archamedies said "Yaricka"  sp? but I had my clothes on when I said "Yaricka" .

Floor, what is your next step?
I will try some other magnets but I will not modify this device because
I have had working things that got disturbed and modified and never
worked as good again. Its called "the Bollinger lesson".
I have my original pendulum that goes up further than its dropped point
in a box so it can be observed as it worked.
See my attached principle drawing without the pivoting part.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 01, 2019, 11:51:02 PM
Thanks Norman the drawings are appreciated.

There are many other drawings (hundreds) which illustrate
these principles. in the latter / second part of tjis topic


@ ALL READES

There are 19 short videos at this link, which show most of these action sets.
They are simple and yet what they imply is mind bloweing.

https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos

             Floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 02, 2019, 02:28:27 AM

There are 19 short videos at this link, which show most of these action sets.
They are simple and yet what they imply is mind bloweing.

https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos (https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos)

Unfortunately that site goes to facebook and my computer blocks facebook
because one time when I was changing my cellphone virgintmobile went to
facebook and I did not trust it. Most people don't watch where these web pages
go to but I do. And fortunately I do not have the fastest cable internet so I can see
them.

But you are right about the simplicity and implication. I emailed my family and
closest friends who know what I have been doing for the last 10 years and only
one has a clue to its implication.

I'm certain when I get more robust with stronger magnets it will go over 300% where
there is enough extra to do the switching. I can envision a rotary wheel that can
be kick started with a weight and then will generate 20 times the work applied
by that weight.


Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 02, 2019, 01:48:39 PM
All of the working designs I have come up with have start  / stop motions, and some times back and forth motions.
Im not sure rotating motion can be done and still be OU.

Maintaining momentum can be done in a later mechanical stage, like the ratation of a bicycle wheel
occurs only after the back and forth (up and down) motion of the riders feet.

floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 05, 2019, 03:29:04 PM
It just occurred to me that a magnet assisted pendulum might be
the best application of this principle where a push keeps the pendulum
going.

I have my more robust device made but need more neos and Joann Fabrics
does not carry them so had to order them online - 80 magnets of various
sizes for $12. what a deal? I used a 16 inch front bicycle wheel axle because
It is very difficult to fine tune it - just a thousands of an inch movement will
switch it from attract to repel.

Magnets will arrive Thurs.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 06, 2019, 09:54:41 PM
Hi Norman

I looked at one of your magnet and pendulum designs a while back.

It's some what like the Twist Drive device in that it 's O.U. but then it undoes
the work it did (when the sliding unit is input and the rotating unit is output).

However, in the Twist Drive unit, when the fall of both the rotating and the sliding unit weights are
considered, the device is flat out O.U. .

              floor

Here is below an new drawing set / animation of an earlier O.U. magnet interactions.


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 06, 2019, 10:24:03 PM
Thanks Floor, I commend you for your diligence. You are much like Butch Lafonte
a few years back but he is nowhere around these days.
Your idea is great but I never liked the rack and had no way to make that.
I thought of using drawer slides but they are not very precise.
Do you have a good source for the rack?

I prefer robust bearings like the bicycle crank and the front wheel axle because
they are play/slop adjustable.

Butch Lafonte made a scissors like device that had repel on one end and
attract on the other end which demonstrates the balance but it has no use.
Your 2 opposite magnets is a mag force "balancer/killer". It is very tricky to
balance where attract and repel is equal so using the Lafonte opposites
I should be able to have one on each end of a bicycle crank and get them
balanced so there is almost no force to remove the mag force blocker
and let the repel work. So for very little effort I can get twice the work out
and increase the OU.

 My magnets did not come today and are delayed.
So I am working on a bicycle crank robust setup with a device
on each end of the crank to balance it out and that might be a good
thing not to have the magnets today because I can work more on the design
and save time and bench work.

Thanks for the dialogue. You are one of a few who are still interested in
harvesting the power of the permanent magnet.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 07, 2019, 12:04:12 AM


I am pretty sure there are others like myself that have been following these threads about using magnets for quite some time.  I do believe it is possible to harness that power but I don't comment much because I don't feel I have anything useful to add.  Both of you have been doing some excellent work and I try to follow you closely.  Thanks so much for your efforts and for being willing to share what you have learned.

Thanks again,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 07, 2019, 03:05:37 AM
Thanks Carroll. I learn slowly but it really sinks in. Floor has really discovered the
key to obtaining useful power from permanent magnets. And by counter balancing
2 or more mechanisms the work required will be very little. What behooves me is
that no one ever posts that they are making/exprimenting on such simple ideas.

We'll get there this year I think.
Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 08, 2019, 08:07:11 PM
@ Carroll

Thanks for pipeing in once in a while.

PS  I worked out an OU gravity device  !
  Didn't really think it was possable.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 08, 2019, 08:41:18 PM
Hi guys,


I might have something worth about 2 cents to add.  I have been thinking about how to make a smooth moving track with no side play.  I have found on Ebay small bearings in multiple quantities from time to time.  Usually like 12 or so to a set.  Skate board bearings are usually pretty cheap if bought in quantities of 12 or so.  If you get some of them or smaller bearings depending on the size of your project you can build a pretty solid slide or track with little friction.  Your first need to find some wooden dowel rod that is the same size as the inside of your bearings.  Then drill a hole in the dowel that is offset from the center.  Using bolts and nuts to mount the dowel onto your support board.  By rotating the dowel you can adjust the clearance between the bearing and your track or slide rod.  Obviously the rod or track needs to be square and perfectly smooth.  With two bearings on one side and one bearing on the other you should be able to get nice smooth movement.  Of course you also need bearings on the other two sides that are perpendicular to the first two.


And I also have an idea for a toothed track.  You can also get on Ebay various sizes and lengths of timing belts and the pulleys that go with them.  By cutting a long timing belt in to two pieces you could glue one half on one track rod and the other half on the other track rod and mount the pulley between the two track rods.  This would keep the tracks in time with one another without expensive gearing mechanisms.  The kind I am talking about are only about 1/8 inch to 1/2 inch wide.  I don't mean the large ones like are used on cars.  The small ones can also be found in some scanners and copy machines.  I have used those kinds of belts and pulleys for some of my experiments a few years ago when I was trying to get a magnet motor to work.  The motor didn't work but the timing belt and pulley did work just fine.

I hope these suggestions are some help.  Right now I am very busy with some major home projects but I really think the opposing magnet track idea will work with gravity and some weight bringing the magnets back together again.

Floor I am really looking forward to anything further you can add about your OU device.

Thanks again to both of you for your  efforts and being willing to share.
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 09, 2019, 01:57:40 AM
a section of toothed belt and a .gear

Very nice improvisation

            thanks
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on June 09, 2019, 09:03:36 PM
Hi Floor and Norman6538,

Been following your detailed work. I whipped up a quick sketch of a mechanism for moving the shields. The idea is to make a push slider which the trolley hits when it gets almost near the end. This of course would have to depend on the strength of the magnets and actuation distance needed. Thinner magnets could maybe help. I do not have enough hands on experience with your model so I do not know where the magnet starts to switch from shielding to repulsion( the most likely sticky spot). Maybe this will inspire another idea if it's not feasible.

Instead of the push slider another idea is using a compliant mechanism like the "Airplane" which creates a snap action toggle.

https://www.compliantmechanisms.byu.edu/flexlinks
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 09, 2019, 09:30:49 PM
Thanks  Dreamthinkbuild. Nice drawing.  My problem now is I cannot
get the magnets to balance well and the closer or stronger magnets
I use the worse that is. I realize that not all magnets are identical in
power.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 10, 2019, 03:26:14 PM
@ all readers

The sliding fixtures used must be rigid before you can get good results. 

Flexing of the magnets from their positions can mess things up quicker than just about any thing else.  Powerful neo magnets require high precision / very strong fixtures.
                                           Use of ceramic magnets recommended.

There is a ratio between the surface area magnets and their flux density.  Yes
                                           Use of ceramic magnets recommended.

Small and yet powerful magnets (neos) are very difficult to align precisely enough to get good results. 

A larger surface area of the magnets makes a workable alignment easier, because it allows for more margin of error in alignment.
                    example
A miss alignment of 1/16 inch off,  out of a 1 inch by 1 inch surface area, is off by 1/16. 
A miss alignment of 1/16 inch off, out of a 2 inch by 2 inch surface area, is like being off by 1/32 if the magnet were instead, a 1 inch by 1 inch surface area.                                                                   

A miss alignment by 1/32 inch might be well within a tolerable / workable limit when using 1 and 7/8 inch  by 5/8 inch surface area ceramic magnets.

If instead, one were using 1/2 inch by 3/8 inch, n48 magnets, the precision in alignment might need
to be within one thousandths of an inch !
 
Also, the alignment precision needed, is somewhat dependent upon which magnet configuration /
 method / device you are using.

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/169684/

        regards
                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 10, 2019, 03:44:36 PM
more

A misalignment of 1/32 inch when using a 1 and 7/8" by 5/8 inch
ceramic magnet, in some circumstances might result in a only a few
grams of force imbalance  The same amount of misalignment,  when
using 1/2 inch by 3/8 inch n48 magnets can easily result in a force imbalance
of HUNDREDS of grams.

This is due to BOTH, the greater strength of the the neos and the ratio of magnet's strength to
the width of the magnet's face.

          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 10, 2019, 03:49:47 PM
One more thing
   thanks
         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 10, 2019, 05:49:14 PM
Hi Floor,

I have ordered a bunch of bearings and already have lots of ceramic magnets.  I just need to find some suitable material for the rods and I think I will then have everything I need to start some serious experimenting with your ideas.  Thanks again for sharing.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 10, 2019, 11:18:57 PM
I discovered that one of my problems is I used steel to be able to
slide the magnets into adjustment and that causes some attract back
sticky spot. So I have switched to SS or Aluminum.

But further weaker weakens the power out.
So that means very close tolerance is needed.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 12, 2019, 03:28:36 AM


I found something today I think will make some nice rods for supporting all the magnets.  If you have a Tractor Supply store near you they have a pretty nice assortment of metal pieces and a very large assortment of nuts and bolt.  Today I found some aluminum angle that is 1/8" thick and measures 1" by 1" on the sides and it is 48" long.  I believe this will work fine with the bearings I have on the way to make a very rigid but smooth moving assembly for mounting the magnets to.  When I get some time I will try to draw up something to show how I plan to build the device based on all the information Floor has given.  I have out of town company coming in for a few days so it may be next week before I can try to draw something up.  But I am thinking about this a lot.  Still working out in my head the best way to move the shielding magnet at exactly the right time.  I think I have that idea worked out but will need to make some prototypes to see what works best.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 12, 2019, 08:10:34 PM

But I am thinking about this a lot.  Still working out in my head the best way to move the shielding magnet at exactly the right time.  I think I have that idea worked out but will need to make some prototypes to see what works best.

Take care,
Carroll

There is no continuous motion in the devices I have illustrated on this topic. 

There are some rotation aspects to some design  that were posted in another topic.

All motions and / or actions are start, completion of that action, then and then only then, does the next action begin.

There is No constant motion. 
There are no constant motions.

                floor

                 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 12, 2019, 08:15:35 PM

But I am thinking about this a lot.  Still working out in my head the best way to move the shielding magnet at exactly the right time.  I think I have that idea worked out but will need to make some prototypes to see what works best.

Take care,
Carroll

There is no continuous motion in the devices I have illustrated on this topic. 

There are some rotation aspects to some design  that were posted in another topic. See below.

https://overunity.com/17070/all-magnet-motor-td-based/msg502026/#msg502026

All motions and / or actions are start, completion of that action, then and then only then, does the next action begin.

There is No constant motion. 
There are no constant motions.

                floor

                 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 12, 2019, 09:00:46 PM


I am planning to build a device based on your rack design.  Shown in this PDF: (https://overunity.com/Themes/default/images/icons/clip.gif) Rack Action 3 complete.pdf (https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173069/)
I plan to have some weight on the upper arm and magnet to return it to the start position after the shield magnet is back in place.  Then remove the shield magnet again to restart the cycle.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 12, 2019, 09:17:42 PM
Since the tricky balancing and the extra power of the earlier design was not enough
I have switched to this. See the drawing. It is necessary to keep the gap to a minimum
to get maximum power. The domino sized ceramic magnets are too thick.
So I used 2 stacked Radio Shack ceramics with the hole in the middle to get
more repel power with less gap.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on June 13, 2019, 02:35:45 AM
Where this logic is wrong is that when two magnets are stacked together they are stronger.....right.
So the center magnet will get stronger where the poles add (N + S) and appear to the other repelling where there is (N+N) as a single stronger magnet, So in the end it's a wash and the magnets stay separated.

It would work if steel was used for the center magnet but that also causes it to become harder to remove when the repelling magnets are closer to the steel.
Maybe the center magnet could be two thin magnets with a thin sheet of steel between them to reduce the adding effect.

I think IEC uses something along this line, where there is some steel between the repelling magnets. (laminated if you look close)



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 13, 2019, 03:01:11 AM

Lumen said

Where this logic is wrong is that when two magnets are stacked together they are stronger.....right.
So the center magnet will get stronger where the poles add (N + S) and appear to the other repelling where there is (N+N) as a single stronger magnet, So in the end it's a wash and the magnets stay separated.

Lumen I'm not sure your are right. Is this head work or bench work?
The center magnet is sort of shunting the mag fields on both sides
of the magnet.

I should know in a few days....

Norman

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on June 13, 2019, 07:31:18 PM
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 08:44:19 PM
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.

Your design looks like a fail, but its not a replication of any of my designs.

Why don't you stick to what works ?

                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 08:45:58 PM
Where this logic is wrong is that when two magnets are stacked together they are stronger.....right.
So the center magnet will get stronger where the poles add (N + S) and appear to the other repelling where there is (N+N) as a single stronger magnet, So in the end it's a wash and the magnets stay separated.

It would work if steel was used for the center magnet but that also causes it to become harder to remove when the repelling magnets are closer to the steel.
Maybe the center magnet could be two thin magnets with a thin sheet of steel between them to reduce the adding effect.

I think IEC uses something along this line, where there is some steel between the repelling magnets. (laminated if you look close)

What's IEC ?

           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 08:51:27 PM
@Lumen

What are the polarities in your drawing ?

      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 08:53:36 PM
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.


How do you conclude that with the 3 Newtons increase ?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on June 13, 2019, 09:03:59 PM
#217 : IEC
https://overunity.com/18188/iec-earth-engine-first-magnet-motor-installed-in-las-vegas/msg535155/#new
#219:  15 N - 11,75 N = 3,25 N force difference or increase
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 09:24:48 PM
Hi Floor and Norman6538,

Been following your detailed work. I whipped up a quick sketch of a mechanism for moving the shields. The idea is to make a push slider which the trolley hits when it gets almost near the end. This of course would have to depend on the strength of the magnets and actuation distance needed. Thinner magnets could maybe help. I do not have enough hands on experience with your model so I do not know where the magnet starts to switch from shielding to repulsion( the most likely sticky spot). Maybe this will inspire another idea if it's not feasible.

Instead of the push slider another idea is using a compliant mechanism like the "Airplane" which creates a snap action toggle.

https://www.compliantmechanisms.byu.edu/flexlinks

Thanks DreamThinkBuild.

I appreciate your taking the time to do the drawing.

But please don't assume you know how or why these devices function.
          Your design is no good in this application.   
Because it entails installations and removals of the shield magnets BEFORE
 AND WHILE the other magnets are in motion.

Don't know how you missed this point. 

Sorry If I seem harsh, but your miss understanding is leading people off into a completely wrong direction.
                                   NOT GOOD.

   Done correctly 

1. The shield magnet is removed ONLY after the output magnets have completely finished closing together and are at a stop.
2. The shield magnet is reinstalled ONLY after the output magnet have completely finished expanding and are at a stop.
3. No other way !

You may not see why this matters, but then, as I said, apparantly you miss understood / assumed the hows and whys.

    Also
There is / are no sticky spot/s, if it's done right.  Exception: at very close proximity there can be a very minor stickiness
due to domain re-orientations.  This is entirely different from what is classically called "the sticky spot"
There is no / are no sticky spots, in  the respect the words "stick spot" typically refers to,  in attempted magnet OU devices.

These designs are not attempts to conserve momentum or improve efficiency. 
They are work from permanent magnets, designs, not efficiency designs. 

In terms of the typical / conventional approaches,  these designs are / seem wasteful.

But if its OU, it's not wasteful ?
 

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 09:54:43 PM
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.

If you are encouraged because of this outcome, then I suppose this is a good thing.  But compared to what I
have seen in some of these interactions, those are mediocre results.

I can't give any advice as to how to improve your results. I don't have enough details.

      regards
                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 10:12:04 PM
Thanks Norman

True, it might be more accurate to call the shielding, shunting.  But pretty much any kind of
shielding is shunting.


@ Lumen

The difference between when shielded (shunted)  and not shunted is huge in this
configuration.       https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

Please do an exact replication of it.  But put both actions / magnet s on precision track system.

Note, as a second test, the shield magnets could be N to S on the broad sides, instead of the two
shield magnets being glued together in repulsion (wearing each other out).

                 Sorry if I've been testy /  out  of line
                     rough day
                       floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 13, 2019, 10:37:19 PM
I really appreciate the civil discussion that we are having on this thread.
Its quite simple - take and idea and make something and test it and report
the results without name calling and accusations. Then with some critiquing
and suggestions improve it. And of coarse we will always hear "don't waste
your time because all energy is conserved" which means to me the energy comes
from somewhere and in the case of magnets we know where it comes from -
the magnet but after work is derived the reset for another cycle comes at a price.

I am now stuck at bearing tolerance. I use 2 skate bearings and they have enough
play to make 1/6 inch movement at the end of an arm 12 inches away.
some  folks have told me to look for RC car bearings. I'll get there but it
takes time.

Floor I would call your setup a magnetic field disrupter because it disrupts the
normal attraction or repelling.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on June 14, 2019, 03:08:23 AM
Hi Floor,
The setup is the same as your PDF file except the two piece magnetic shield.
A layered opposing magnet seems to work best for the shield and is still easy to insert or remove with no real force.
The only thing I found that works better for the shield is this same configuration but with very thin steel between them but it also causes some attraction to the two working magnets.

That's why I ran the calculation to find the results for the shown magnets. They are all N35's and the sizes shown. The best results were with very little spacing in the fully closed position.
The results would likely be different if using ceramic magnets.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on June 14, 2019, 03:42:10 AM
Hi Lumen,
 do you have the actual photo/video of your setup?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on June 14, 2019, 04:54:01 AM
Yes, but of course it doesn't actually work because you cannot shield the field.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 14, 2019, 05:04:54 AM
Thanks Lumen for the clairification and experimentations.


Quote from floor earlier in this topic

"The sliding fixtures used must be rigid before you can get good
results.

Flexing of the magnets from their positions can mess things up
quicker than just about any thing else.  Powerful neo magnets
require high precision / very strong fixtures.
                               Use of ceramic magnets recommended.

There is a ratio between the surface area magnets and their flux
density.  Yes
                               Use of ceramic magnets recommended.

Small and yet powerful magnets (neos) are very difficult to align
precisely enough to get good results.

A larger surface area of the magnets makes a workable alignment
easier, because it allows for more margin of error in alignment.
                    example
A miss alignment of 1/16 inch off,  out of a 1 inch by 1 inch surface
area, is off by 1/16.
A miss alignment of 1/16 inch off, out of a 2 inch by 2 inch surface
area, is like being off by 1/32 if the magnet were instead, a 1 inch
by 1 inch surface area.                                                                   

A miss alignment by 1/32 inch might be well within a tolerable / workable
limit when using 1 and 7/8 inch  by 5/8 inch surface area ceramic magnets.

If instead, one were using 1/2 inch by 3/8 inch, n48 magnets, the precision
in alignment might need to be within one thousandths of an inch !
 
Also, the alignment precision needed, is somewhat dependent upon which
magnet configuration / method / device  you are using.

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/169684/

        regards
                floor"  END QUOTE

Note:
When my ceramic magnets are aligned so that the attracting and repelling forces are in a near balance, new forces arise due to magnetic domain re-orientations. They are along that same balanced vector, and become noticeable as a WEAK stickiness to the shield magnet. 

When using ceramic magnets, those undesirable / sticky  forces have only arisen while the
magnets are at very close proprieties. 

I believe that because magnetic force increases very sharply at the final / very near distance,  that  this is the only point at which  the field strength becomes great enough to significantly reorient some magnetic domains.  I did some tests along these lines and they seemed to verify this theory. 

I don't  how the neos behave in this respect.
I don't have any experience in this regard when it comes to Neo magnets.

        interested to see more of your tests / experiments
                   regards
                      floor




Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 14, 2019, 05:08:45 AM
@ Lumen


Yes, but of course it doesn't actually work because you cannot shield the field.

Is this posted in the wrong topic ?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 16, 2019, 01:13:37 AM
I am truly stuck again with not being able to get it balanced where almost no effort is required to move the distrupter magnet. A stack of 3 or 4 gives plenty of repel force
a lot is lost when the gap gets wider and the force weaker.
The round neos are way too tricky so I went back to cereamics.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 16, 2019, 03:18:19 PM
@ Norman 6538

Your fixtures / set up is not rigid enough, nor high precision enough
to give consistent results.  Half measures wont get you there.

I still maintain that you should get some one with a wood shop (a cabinet maker or friend) to build you a solid test unit.  2 sliding units at right angles to each other, each with precision linear bearings. It must be adjustable in many directions and adaptable for the mounting of many varieties of magnet shapes and sizes.

No experiments nor proofs from you, can be valid without some kind of setup like that, although your input and opinions still are.

           regards
                   floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 17, 2019, 10:28:37 PM
@ norman

The magnets in this 6 minute video are clamped and / or hand held.

               https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

But what they show is clear enough for anyone to see and / or try for their self.

There are 19 (I think) videos at the SeeThisVid channel at dailymotion.com.

                         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 17, 2019, 11:05:18 PM
Floor, I started fixed mount but that did not tell all. So I moved to one fixed side
and one moving so measure the potential work in and out. The vertical disrupter magnet
must be vertically aligned to acquire the neutral force or it will either repel
or attract.
My rough efficiency is under 100% today.
So here are some things I discovered.
1. the vertical disrupter magnet should be as thin as possible so closer
stronger gives more power.
2. but the vertical disrupter magnet has to be strong enough to disrupt the repel of the
two magnets.
3. Once balanced vertical disrupter magnet must remain in alignment when it
   is extracted to allow the repel to work.

4. I am using 3 stacked Radio Shack magnets because 2 are too weak and
   4 are too strong for the vertical disrupter magnet to release the repel force.

My drawings always work (armchair quarterbacks) but my embodiments ( benchers )
do not do as well as the drawings.


Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 17, 2019, 11:53:08 PM

My drawings always work (armchair quarterbacks) but my embodiments ( benchers )
do not do as well as the drawings.


Norman

LOL   The story of my life.  Thanks for the laugh.

Cheers,
Carroll

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on June 19, 2019, 03:35:46 AM
@ Floor,
That is an interesting video!
I tested this in the simulator and found amazing results.
It seems the center magnet set causes one of the outer magnets to loose all the force against it while the other sides force is greatly increased.

I tried both ceramic and neo's with the same results, but the neo's were obviously way stronger.
This may be in fact the key to getting something really powerful operating.


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 19, 2019, 08:52:32 PM
Hi Lumen

Cool
  congrats

Broad polar faces, facing each other makes a broader path for the
magnetic fields (lesser field density during the interactions).
Too great of a density within the fields tends to lessen the effetiveness of the
shielding / shunting.  Some kind of saturation phenomena, I think?  I think also
that this may be    ONE    of the reasons that the shielding, when done in
attraction modes of output, behaves not as well / differently.

        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 28, 2019, 02:57:54 AM


Some pictures from my attempt to build the device shown in Floor's pdf.  I still need to get the other track mounted and then the track coming in from the right to shield and unshield the opposing magnets.  The magnets are ceramic and will be super glued to the aluminum end pieces on the track.  I have used a lot of my Dad's machinists tools I inherited from him to make sure everything is perfectly square and true.  The two bearings on one side and one bearing on the other side seem to make a very solid device that can still move easily.  And there are two bearings on the bottom of the track with one on top to control motion in that direction also.

I am working on this pretty slowly because of a couple of major home projects but will from time to time post updates as I get farther along.

Take care all,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 28, 2019, 11:10:38 PM
It looks like you have 3 bearings for the lateral (counting the Pinyon gear), and three for the vertical.

Nice progress !

     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 28, 2019, 11:23:46 PM
Thanks.

There are actually 3 bearings for the lateral besides the pinyon gear.  The 3rd is hidden behind the top bearing in the middle picture.  You can barely see it just to the right of the block of wood the top bearing is mounted on.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 30, 2019, 02:37:04 AM
@citfta
Thank you as well

@ All readers

Some of these designs result in more mechanical
work out than is input.

See for your self.
      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 07, 2019, 07:58:06 AM
Short video of one design @

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

There are 18 other designs / videos available there as well.
  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ramset on July 07, 2019, 03:08:40 PM
Here the TinMan works on Floor's inspiration [as always ..shared with permission]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU)
much Gratitude [I hope its OK to post it here in this thread , wasn't sure which one of your topics was best ?]

Floor you are a true inspiration ![as is the TinMan

Respectfully submitted
Chet K////Edit// I see TinMan added Vids to your topic here https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/msg536314/#new // (https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/msg536314/#new) maybe if you are interested we could ask Stefan about giving you a Moderated builders board or ?? to keep your topics clean [example remove this misplaced post ?]


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 08, 2019, 12:21:58 AM
Thank you Ramset !

I have never resorted to moderation on any of my topics, only threatened to  do so.
I will consider it.

Thanks again Tinman.
Be advised that rotary designs are dicey at best.  A failure in one of them might reflect
badly upon investigations of the strictly linear designs.
We need to not be concerned with conservation of momentum at this point in the process.

          regards
                  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: tinman on July 08, 2019, 06:17:18 AM
[quote author=Floor link=topic=16954.msg536327#msg536327

Thanks again Tinman.
Be advised that rotary designs are dicey at best.  A failure in one of them might reflect
badly upon investigations of the strictly linear designs.
We need to not be concerned with conservation of momentum at this point in the process.

          regards
                  floor
[/quote]

Yes, i hear you.
I will make sure that everyone knows that the two are different,and one should not answer for the other.


Brad
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on July 08, 2019, 09:37:42 AM
Look, ferromagnetic particles in Brownian motion, if placed in a magnetic field. You must take an orderly motion. Reduced entropy. Different forces will act on a particle moving along the field line and across the magnetic field line. I'm right?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 09, 2019, 04:45:30 PM
Look, ferromagnetic particles in Brownian motion, if placed in a magnetic field. You must take an orderly motion. Reduced entropy. Different forces will act on a particle moving along the field line and across the magnetic field line. I'm right?

Wrong topic ? kolbacict
                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 09, 2019, 05:29:17 PM
@Ramset

Moderation could get to be a big job.  Hopefully not. I think Its a good suggestion.

Deleations should  be done only to keep the topic on topic, no punishment element.

Five conditions I would like to see met. (Good Luck)

1. Since the topic is on a "floor design / designs" then the design should be followed as closely
as is reasonable / possible.

2. New designs / major "improvements" / innovations be presented on a separate topic.

3. I would want to see all deleted materials posted in their order of appearance,
to a separate topic.

4. That the deleted material topic, is available for any member to read / comment in.

5. No discussions of / re posting of deleted material on the main topic, once
they have been deleted


I can't take on the job.  I have too much on my plate at this time.
Some one else please ! (maybe Tin Man ?)


@All readers

I'm sure you will give them  rigorus due dilligence and testing, but  please resist the temptation to do improvements at this time.  These designs are my babies.

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 09, 2019, 05:49:46 PM
@Tinman

Linear designs have the potential for power via brute force.
Rotating designs have the potential for power via high speed.

Below is a topic on a few rotating designs.

https://overunity.com/17070/all-magnet-motor-td-based/msg498197/#msg498197

 regards
    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on July 11, 2019, 05:58:28 PM
I forgot to add the video to this post so please see the next one.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on July 11, 2019, 06:05:23 PM
Here is a short video showing my build of Floor's rack 3 design from his PDF.  As he has said it must have pretty accurate alignment before it will work properly.  But it can be made to work as you can see in the video.  The magnets in the video are just cheap magnets from Lowe's.  After mounting them I found the strength varied some making the adjustments a little harder.  A gauss meter used to help match up the strength of the magnets would probably be a help in making a better build.


https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 11, 2019, 09:33:50 PM
@ CITFTA

Pretty good results !

I hope you made your test bed easy to modify

Two outer magnets tend to overpower a single shield magnet.  Where as, an over sized (broader)
shield magnet doesn't adversely effect the shielding but instead (up to a point) improves it.

Your shielding would be improved by the use of a shield magnet that is about twice as broad as the one you used
                   or
2 magnets as below (this works just fine).

Also note that,  when using a broader shield magnet, the fine tuning / adjusting,  is easier and can be less precise.

              floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on July 11, 2019, 09:44:13 PM
Thanks for the suggestion Floor.  Do you know if a thinner shield magnet would still work as a shield?  I am thinking that would allow the rack magnets to get closer together so they would have more repelling force when the shield magnet is removed.  I can fairly easily make changes to my test bed as everything is mounted with screws and assembled with bolts and nuts.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on July 11, 2019, 11:32:31 PM
@ citfta

Before you tear it down you might want to try to determine what if any problems exist for the setup.
I found that when two magnets are pushing apart at close proximity there is some additional force required to remove the shield.
When the magnets are operated in attraction the shield would need more force to insert.

You might try a thin neo for the shield but it could also destroy the ceramic magnets if too close.

Nice sturdy setup though.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on July 12, 2019, 03:07:38 AM
Here is a short video showing my build of Floor's rack 3 design from his PDF.  As he has said it must have pretty accurate alignment before it will work properly.  But it can be made to work as you can see in the video.  The magnets in the video are just cheap magnets from Lowe's.  After mounting them I found the strength varied some making the adjustments a little harder.  A gauss meter used to help match up the strength of the magnets would probably be a help in making a better build.


https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4

Carroll

Hi Carroll,
can you make some basic measurement of the forces x distance?
I like how you make them moving synchronously with the roller.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on July 12, 2019, 03:31:37 AM
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the nice comments.

Luman,  after reading your post I did try moving the shield magnet very slowly from between the opposing magnets.  And I did feel just the slightest bit of force at one point resisting the shield magnet from being removed.  At what I would consider normal speed of removing the shield I did not detect that.  I don't know if that can be removed completely by more careful adjustment or not.

telecom,  I do not have any way to measure the forces of movement right now.  I am going to be very busy for the next couple of weeks but when I can get back to this I will see what I can come up with to do that.  With these small ceramic magnets the forces will only be in ounces I am sure.  So it will take a small spring scale of some kind.

Later,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on July 12, 2019, 02:25:31 PM
About measurement. I do not like  measuring instruments so I always use weights
times distance. I use washers or nuts so I can easily add or mix them.  I then drop the
ounces or pounds and call them units of work ie. 1 oz. x 1/8 in I call 1 unit of work etc.

My first OU
showed equal weights moving a greater distance giving 180% but this was not the
Floor setup. There is a little loss in inertia staring but if you use 2 weights. 1 to get
started and then caught by a floor and the other to carry through you can get an
accurate measurement.
Best of Luck. I expect my next device to be made and tested within a week.
We had International guests all this week.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 13, 2019, 06:02:58 PM
Hi Carroll,
can you make some basic measurement of the forces x distance?
I like how you make them moving synchronously with the roller.

Hi Telecom

This video  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q   doesn't give measurements,
but it does demonstrate the threshold sensitivity of the test bed shown (mine). 

From this video   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an   ......
one can see that the force to install the sheild magnet is about as small as is
the lower limit of the test bed's sensitivity  (in the range of about 4 grams).

The output magnets can produce a force which is in this range (see the graph) below.

regards
 floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 13, 2019, 06:32:52 PM
Also

The graph above is of the magnets, when facing each other on edge in repulsion.
Forces are MUCH  higher in direct pole to pole magnet orientations (Like CITFTA demo).

and for some reason the graph I just posted shows the force to distance
curve inversely ......  I just grabbed (semi randomly) a graph off my hard drive
(from the Twist drive topic).

So I hope you can see why it is that for all of the effort of doing measurements,
it seems a mute proposition to do so, once one has in hand experienced, the very large
difference between force needed to intsall or remove a shield and ...
the difference in the force between  the output magnets when a shield has been
removed or installed.   

    regards
           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 13, 2019, 06:53:12 PM
           ALSO   ALSO

Thanks for the updates / videos Tinman

     @

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU

I think I see your design / intent,  good luck with it.

Note:  Undesired up and down forces (luc's force) will be high, especially with the leverage
factor present as the radius of the gears.

  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 14, 2019, 03:33:30 AM
Notes to Tinman's design :

1. The design Tinman is currently presenting, is a design variation
of one presented by user LowQ / Vidar.

2. I think that the device will stall.

3. The shielding magnet array needs to be designed such that it
can be held to a sliding motion which is precisely along a vector, which is
90 degrees to a line which is directly between the centers of rotation of the two gears.
That vector must also be parallel to the plane of rotation of the rotating magnets.

4. That sliding vector must also be centered with the rotating magnets in terms of up and down.
( by up and down I mean, parallel to the axis of rotation of the rotating magnets)
 
5. The first implementation of it should have only 2 magnets on each gear, 4 total.
You can always add the rest of them later.

6. The 2 magnets should be space at 180 degrees around the gear.

7.  Gear on left is rotating cw gear on right is rotating ccw.
The shielding magnet /s will need to be pulled back, just AFTER top, dead, center
position of the two repelling / rotating magnets is reached.  Other wise the device will stall.

8. The shielding magnet /s will need to be returned to their original position well before
the next set of magnets arrive at top, dead, center.  This is why to use only 2 magnets per
gear initially.

9. Unlike the (classic design /  fail)  rotating V gate with bouncing sticky spot avoidance,
Vidar's / your design will produce energy / can self run.  But only by a reciprocating motion
of the shield.  In my humble opinion.

Vidar's design has elements of the newton's magnet design, but is more like this design
below "rackAction2.PDF" attached below.

   Again best wishes and keep up the good work !
         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 24, 2019, 11:10:10 PM
@citfta  / All readers
These devices are based upon start, complete, stop motions.

citfta,  in your video demonstration you allow the output magnets to begin their motions
AS THE SHIELDING MAGNET IS BEING REMOVED.  Because of this, your demonstration is NOT ACTUALLY
ONE OF THE MAGNET INTERACTIONS I have been presenting. 

The DEVICE ITSELF is representative of a particular design.
The modality of its operation is not.

If however you will hold back the expansion of / between the output magnets, until the shielding magnet has
been COMPLETELY removed,  your build would THEN, be functioning in accord with the described manner of
operation / modality.

Very nice demonstration.  Very nice build. Your device illustrates certain actions splendidly.

If you can find the time to do so, would you video / redemonstrate the actions with the output magnets
held back, until after the shielding magnet has been completely withdrawn.

This is a CRITICAL element of the designs, and it seem that most every one has not and does not at this
point, realize this.

Again
  Thank you very much for your build and demonstration !

          regards
                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on July 27, 2019, 01:38:55 AM
Hi Floor,

Sorry for the slow response.  I have been on vacation for 9 days with my wife and two granddaughters.  Here is the video you asked for.  I have made one change since the last video.  I did add another magnet to each of the repelling magnets.  The action is much stronger now with a little increase in the effort to remove the shield magnet.   Also I see now that I only have to move the shield magnet a very short distance before the other magnets start to repel.  A short quick movement of the shield magnet gets a very quick response from the repelling magnets.  You can see this in the video.

https://youtu.be/tUHtlruVSus

Enjoy the short show,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on July 27, 2019, 11:44:56 AM
Nice work Carroll, now you need to measure the work in and out.
And if you pair 2 of these together like Lafonte you can reduce the work in.

But those magnets are thick and further weaker applies to the power out.
If you could shave off 1/8 inch of the magnet it could make a difference
but I don't know how to  do that - BUT IF YOU TRY BE CAREFUL OF FRAGMENTS
GETTING INTO YOUR EYES.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 27, 2019, 06:56:28 PM
Nice work Carroll, now you need to measure the work in and out.
Norman

@ Norman

I think it's not a good idea for you to be telling user CITFTA what he"needs to do"

@CITFTA

Thanks for the new video.  It a major / critical point of importance.

I am certain you are allready aware, but the force between the repelling output magnets drops off rapidly with distance. 

If the shield is still partially in place as those repelling magnets are moving farther apart, the force in that repelling is not at the maximum as it could have been, if the shield were completely absent. 

By the time the shield is completely out of the way, that maximum force is lost for good, because the outout magnets have allready moved beyond the point of their maximum
repelling force.


ALso

Sorry I wasn't communicating very clearly at an earlier point but

What I intended to convey, about adding another magnet, was to place it in the shield position.
                  Like in this attached pdf file below "MagForceShield 6.pdf"

   best wishes
           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on July 27, 2019, 07:55:55 PM
Floor and Butch Lafonte I want to thank each one of you for all the different designs that have great possibility for free power. You two have kept the hope of free
non polluting power alive...

A quick and dirty in vs out measurement on my Lafonte Cascaded device show
1 unit in and 4 units out. Even 1:3 would be very good.

Norman

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 27, 2019, 08:13:51 PM
OkY DOKE Norman


@citfta
 png file below

1. two magnets stacked edge to edge.
2. one magnet is above the other.
3. polarities are alternated on the broad face.
4. they will attract to one anther in that arrangement.
5. they slide side ways (in your device) into between the output magnets.
6. the line / junction of these two shielding magnets, should be centered
precisely between the output magnets in the VERTICLE plane.
7. and of course, as parallel to the faces of the output magnet as can be managed.

Note: a single shield magnet tends to be over powered by two out put magnets.
there are other important factors (why the shield magnets alternate face polarities)
which are too much to discuss right now.

       regards
           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on July 30, 2019, 09:24:08 AM
Hi Floor,

Sorry for the slow response.  I have been on vacation for 9 days with my wife and two granddaughters.  Here is the video you asked for.  I have made one change since the last video.  I did add another magnet to each of the repelling magnets.  The action is much stronger now with a little increase in the effort to remove the shield magnet.   Also I see now that I only have to move the shield magnet a very short distance before the other magnets start to repel.  A short quick movement of the shield magnet gets a very quick response from the repelling magnets.  You can see this in the video.

https://youtu.be/tUHtlruVSus

Enjoy the short show,
Carroll
Can you demonstrate how the two opposing magnets react if you push them only half way (Or any place between fully open and fully closed) towards eachother, while the shield magnet is in place?


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 31, 2019, 10:50:53 PM
Can you demonstrate how the two opposing magnets react if you push them only half way (Or any place between fully open and fully closed) towards eachother, while the shield magnet is in place?


Vidar

Thats the right direction / point LowQ

As he ORIGINALLY configured it, citfta's build should NOT operate in a smooth / linear manner,
NOR should it produce a net gain in energy.

As LAST configured, CITFTA's build should NOT operate in a smooth / linear manner,
NOR should it produce a net gain in energy.

     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 31, 2019, 10:55:26 PM
This configuration of the design which citfa's build most resembles, was uploaded (by me)
on May 14 / 2019

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/172888/

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 31, 2019, 11:28:54 PM
These two videos by citfta, are of a design he built,  which the Tinman presented.

https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4
https://youtu.be/tUHtlruVSus

Nice build and nice short demos !


But to be clear, they are
          NOT REPRESENTATIONS
of the designs I have presented, and they are not the design which citfta originally stated that he intended to build.


I am planning to build a device based on your rack design.  Shown in this PDF: (https://overunity.com/Themes/default/images/icons/clip.gif) Rack Action 3 complete.pdf (https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173069/)
I plan to have some weight on the upper arm and magnet to return it to the start position after the shield magnet is back in place.  Then remove the shield magnet again to restart the cycle.

Carroll
                            or
https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173069/

Best wishes
           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 31, 2019, 11:36:21 PM
@All readers

And respectfully,I'll say, that it is up to citfta, as to if he wants to modify it
into one of my designs.....  or not.

best wishes
      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on August 01, 2019, 12:08:31 PM
These two videos by citfta, are of a design he built,  which the Tinman presented.

https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4 (https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4)
https://youtu.be/tUHtlruVSus (https://youtu.be/tUHtlruVSus)

Nice build and nice short demos !


But to be clear, they are
          NOT REPRESENTATIONS
of the designs I have presented, and they are not the design which citfta originally stated that he intended to build.
                            or
https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173069/ (https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173069/)

Best wishes
           floor

Hi Floor,

Can you please explain why you feel my build is not an exact replication of your rack 3 design.  I am a little confused.  You PDF shows two magnets in opposition to each other and connected by a rack and pinion gear arrangement.  And a shield magnet in between the opposing magnets.  So why do you feel I have not correctly built your rack 3 device?  The only difference between the videos and what  I said I was going to build is that I haven't added a weight yet to the rack assembly.


Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 01, 2019, 04:20:46 PM
Hi citfta  No problem.  Thanks for your questioning.  Sometimes my example drawings are
not as good as I thought they were.

I like your build.  Very nice rack and pinion action. Nice and smooth action on the
cross slide too.

But the orientation / direction of the shield magnet is 90 degrees off.

If you rotated it so that its broad faces were up and down that would be
one of the designs I have presented.  But I don't recommend that.
                           Because,.....
1. with the magnet shapes you are using,  the sliding magnets
would be too far apart, even when they are pushed toward each other.
2. You would be shielding two magnets with just a single one.

A better solution (but still inadequate solution)is to use two magnets in
the shield magnet position.

These would be stacked, on edge, one above the other.

A NORTH pole of the upper one facing (for example) LEFT.
A SOUTH pole of the underneath magnet should then be facing LEFT.

The magnets will be attracted to each other, and stick together, when
assembled edge to edge like that.

During the insertion and removal of this shield magnet array, the line
where the two shield magnets meet each other (junction), should be
at the vertical center of the output magnets.

                              But there is a second problem.

Because the output magnets in your build have their longest dimension
oriented as up and down. You will actually need to use FOUR magnets in
the shielding array. 
                                             because
1. Two magnets (as I described), would not be as tall as the output magnets.
                                               and
2. Three magnets as the shield would not create the correct balance in the forces

Those FOUR magnets in the shield array, should be alternating in face / pole orientations,

Because of the good quality of your build, I think you will be quite pleased with the ease of the
insertion and removal of the shield magnets (which are now a simple array).  That ease of
insertion and removal wont be changed very much if the output magnets are either near or far.
The difference between shielded an un-shielded output repulsion will be big.
                      regards
                            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 01, 2019, 07:20:37 PM
@ citfta

Sorry but I had to cut that last post short.  I ran out of time / had to go some where.

But yet again, using 4 magnets in the shielding magnets position will present still
other problems.  I cant get into those at this time.

No worries and no hurries though.
.....................................
The only debugging solution I have for your other wise excellent build.

1. remove all the magnets.

2. reorient the output magnets. 

Rotate them so that when the shield magnets pass between them,
it is centered along the LONG AXIS of those output magnets.
 

3. reorient the shield magnet, but also replace it with two magnets.

These would be stacked, on edge, one above the other (along their long axis sides).

A NORTH pole of the upper one facing (for example) LEFT.
A SOUTH pole of the underneath magnet should THEN also be facing LEFT.

The magnets will be attracted to each other, and stick together, when
assembled edge to edge like that.

During the insertion and removal of this shield magnet array, the line
where the two shield magnets meet each other (junction), should be
at the vertical center of the output magnets.  Which have now been
reoriented so that it is along their long axis that the shield magnet array
passes.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on August 02, 2019, 12:34:34 AM
Hi Floor,

Thanks for your reply.  I now understand where I went wrong with my build although I am still pleased with how it works.  I will be pretty tied up the next few days again but will be thinking how I can implement the changes you have suggested.  Thanks again for all your time and efforts in doing the research involved your study of magnets.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 02, 2019, 10:23:24 PM
@ citfta

              acknowledged
               
             

Here is a preview of my next build.  Same design as I recommended  to you,
but differing due to a use of 4 magnets in the outputs (2 each) and 4 magnets in the shield.

                https://dai.ly/x7f0i61

                      best wishes
                               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 02, 2019, 10:36:21 PM
A brief video by me that shows a method of imprinting multiple poles into a ceramic magnet.
                          @
           https://dai.ly/x7f0jpy

     floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 02, 2019, 11:25:34 PM
My own replication of a brute force neutralization of magnetic force as demonstrated by  the Tinman.

                    PART 1
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0md2

        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 02, 2019, 11:47:24 PM
My own replication of a brute force neutralization of magnetic force as demonstrated by  the Tinman.

                    PART 2
                        @
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0o4w

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 07, 2019, 09:48:30 PM
Floor's  balancing neutralization part 2 video.

                   https://dai.ly/x7ffco0

                             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 07, 2019, 10:01:02 PM
Restoring ceramic magnets, breif video.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7ffe07

               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 10, 2019, 10:53:33 PM
It is not problematic, If the output magnets have some attraction, when the shield
magnet array is in place.

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173702/

  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 14, 2019, 09:18:24 PM
@citfta

During the video demonstration  @ https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

of the " MagForShld 1b.pdf"  @  https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/dlattach/attach/173835/

The Two magnets in the shielding position are glued together edge to edge.

They are in repulsion.

Note 1. One of  those ceramic shield magnets was considerably weaker than the other.  They did not shield well AT ALL, when
I reoriented/ flipped them top for bottom. 

I have since that time, done many repeats of those particular interactions, with well matched magnets in the shielding position, as well
as in the output magnet positions. I have had good results.  I have never mounted that configuration on track systems.

Note 2. notice (in the video x728wd9) that the shield magnet is not well centered (up and down).  This is why the shielding worked
only when oriented a certain way and not the other, one shield magnet extends beyond the tops of the fixed and output magnet.
I think that was the weaker of the two shield magnets ?

Note 3  given that your ceramic magnets are all from the same supplier / manufacturer, treating them with neo magnets can
equalize them nicely (video   @   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7ffe07  ).

         Thanks  for all your good work / experimentation.

                         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 15, 2019, 08:09:01 AM
An innovation by I don't know who. Some combination of
communications and miscomunications ?

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on August 16, 2019, 04:56:29 PM
A short video of my progress so far.  I had hoped to get more done by now but other things keep coming up that need to be taken care of.  This video does show some proof of what Floor has been telling us in his videos and PDFs.

https://youtu.be/wHHVrQRby9A (https://youtu.be/wHHVrQRby9A)


Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 16, 2019, 08:28:41 PM
@ citfta

thanks for the latest update !

       floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 19, 2019, 10:07:41 PM
Hi CITFTA

I didn't notice any video of the       https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/172888/
version of the device.   

This is the design that I originally asked that you modify your misinterpretation / build into.  Did you do that mod. and then not present a
video of it ?

                  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 19, 2019, 10:38:33 PM
TO ALL READERS

          Just for clarity...

               Pleased as CITFTA has been with his builds / results and I would agree that they are pretty skilfully built.
               A nice innovation in the use of the glued down toothed belt as a rack gear and so on........
                            But once again.
              NOT A SINGLE ONE of the 3 videos CITFTA has present, is of a design which I had presented.

              Each video has some similarity to one of the designs, but IS NOT ONE OF THOSE DESIGNS.
             
              Not a single one of them is a correct representation of ANY of the designs I had presented.
                   
            What do you think the odds are of 3 misinterpretations in a row, like that.
           
            Bad run of luck for CITFTA I'd guess.  I agree with CITFTA's statement that he should maybe give
            his self a break from the builds for now.

                   best wishes

                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on August 19, 2019, 10:40:23 PM
Hi CITFTA

I didn't notice any video of the       https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/172888/ (https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/172888/)
version of the device.   

This is the design that I originally asked that you modify your misinterpretation / build into.  Did you do that mod. and then not present a
video of it ?

                  floor

Hi Floor,

No,  I have not done a build of the PDF device in your last post.  That will probably be my next design to test when I have finished testing the design I am working with now.  My wife is currently sick so I have some extra household duties for a while.  I want to test all the different designs you have made PDFs for.  Thanks again for all your efforts and being willing to share your results.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 19, 2019, 10:46:06 PM
At CITFTA

Hope your wife is better soon.


          floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 25, 2019, 05:37:15 PM
@CITFTA  All READERS

This is the cyber world, where so often people and things are not as they appear to be.

I have seen too many "replications" on the forum that were similar to, but not nearly identical
to a design as presented.

At a certain point (its been a while" I myself was asking for replication of some of the
"twist drive" interactions.   

Two different O.U. forum users, did some builds. 

One user, in particular spent a  GREAT DEAL OF TIME (weeks) AND ENERGY (several videos)
doing GREAT BUILDS and presenting results.  However, he opted to use neodymium magnets, and almost unbelievably......   for all that large amount of time, effort he gave and all the attention he drew to (actually away from ) the twist drive design...............

                                                              NEVER....
AT ANY POINT.... DID HE ACTUALLY DO A REPLICATION OF THE TWITS DRIVE NTERACTIONS. 

                                              Not once.  Not at all. 

He did however carry the topic away for those few months. It's dead now.
 
The other user presented 4 or 5 photos, some graphs and computer simulations, then concluded, that one could accomplish the same thing if using springs instead of magnets ?  GOOD LUCK WITH THAT !

The more recent topic, "Newtons magnets" was being dragged into directions / misinterpretations
innovations and so on, all during my repeated requests and inistance that that topic was for
a very narrow and specific point.  I received no response to those requests, nor any acknowledgments of them, by certain users.


Simultaneously, CITFTA you are presenting GREAT BUILDS, but not replications.
.........          ............         ............     ............
CITFTA, You seem like a nice person.  So did that other GREAT BUILD "replicator"

I hope you understand my concerns / point of view.  I am put into the position
of seeming to be disingenuous and ungrateful of the GREAT efforts this kindly older
gentleman (you) has enthusiastically given to these designs.

What do I expect ?  I expect of your most recent build...  it will fail to shield the output
magnet's repulsion.  Why ?  Because the shielding magnets are too weak and because they
are joined together, in a constant repulsion to one another, are only getting weaker by the day.

This is the cyber world, where so often people and things are not as they appear to be.

 best wishes
   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 30, 2019, 10:28:06 PM
          These videos demonstrate magnet interactions which are Over Unity

                                                    BUT ONLY WHEN
      EACH MOVEMENT IS COMPLETED BEFORE THE NEXT MOTION IS ALLOWED TO BEGIN.

                                 OUTPUT ACTIONS ARE LATCHED / PREVENTED
                                                                AND
         DO NOT OCCUR  UNTIL AFTER THE SHIELDING HAS BEEN COMPLETELY REMOVED.

                              THERE IS NO CONTINUOUS MOTION AND
                   ARE NO CONTINUOUS MOTIONS IN THESE ACTION SETS.
                   EACH MOTION ENDS BEFORE THE NEXT MOTION BEGINS.

video, titled "amazeing"  @
                                            https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q
video titled "shield # 2 actions" @
                                                   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ijgy1

                                         AND

video titled "Floor's balancing neutralization"  @
                                                                            https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0i61
                                                                                         

video titled "Floor's balancing neutralization 2"  @
                                                                               https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7ffco0
                                                                                       
                                        AND

video titled "magnetshield 1" @
                                                 https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on August 31, 2019, 11:02:23 AM
No over unity, no neutralization, and no shielding.artv 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on August 31, 2019, 01:55:09 PM
https://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae512.cfm

There is no passive way to shield against magnetic fields that would produce useable force from just magnet. Ask on quora.

This is extremely debunked, this forest has been razed to the ground, not a single shrub remains, I have observed since 2008.

Your video is lame.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You must now concentrate your life on the design rakarsky is saying about, Carl J LUTTMER.

He, Carl J LUTTMER, knew the secret, not you, you are misguided, forever lost, now you must enter in the light.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20267-motor-generators-13.html
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: alextecmen on September 01, 2019, 06:25:51 PM
interesting information, which shows the page ARMCORTEX
it is detailed that the lines of the magnetic field of the magnet should always end at its opposite pole, nature is like that, when I start a magnet through the center to separate the north pole from the south, of course, an N and a Yes, the dipole is recreated.
what can be redirected the field lines with certain materials that have greater magnetic permeability, would trap the magnetic lines and redirect it but would return to the opposite pole.

well where I wanted to go, is that there are materials that achieve this purpose well, one of them is the nu-metal, when I have done some tests, it is surprising to see that on the side where the nu-metal is you can put another magnet and there is no attraction effect with the magnet that is on the other side.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 01, 2019, 07:34:27 PM
The only thing that is interresting is the engine that Rakarsky is trying to build and the luttmer patents.

My first link is not that interresting, I am just not about to list the 100+ people on this site and thousand of man hours that Floor is trying to disprove.

If there was a way to get clever with these magnets by just moving them around I think we would have seen it, I have been observing since 2008.

Hype hype hype then deflate.... I have OU I have it.... Uhhh not I dont.

Let me explain how it works around here, quality people are rare, and there is alot of useless ASCI characters to scroll down.

So if you see somebody trying to prove something by moving around magnets with his hands, you can safely ignore him, but this is not the only criteria.

Ignore totally the following users, Nothing they say is important and is automatic scroll down: Floor, Cifta, and many many others...

There is many hints and clues on low/average intelligence and who to ignore... constant Bad punctuation, non-sensical rambling  to pose as something else, Zero proof of work, inexperience, ignorance, bad logic, speculation passed on as fact, being vague and not practical, "group think", overly joyful, abusive use of emoticons, etc...  Use these clues to better navitage the forums and estimate people's IQ. The goal is to extract knowledge that could be useful for a build, once you identify such knowledge, save it and organize it if possible.

I mix all of these and have become very fast and efficient reader, you can say that I have developped an "instinct".

Also, recognize that even with free energy the laws of economics always apply, only "BIG POWER" for small cost, has an impact on your life, choose your projects wisely, only power that can run many appliances, provide heat, is of any use. Chasing small things for the fun of it is a waste of time and money. For example... Milkovic pendulum, Joule thief, bedini... All the actions never payed for themselves in electrical saving even after successful. The only effort you should put, is into a finished and safe design that can be potentially placed in your basement and provide eletricity throughout the entire house.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on September 01, 2019, 10:56:45 PM
Is there any way to levitate a magnetic rotor?
I've been trying, but keeping it aligned has proven impossible so far.
The more fields you add, the more complex it becomes.
Floor is merely observing some of the various interactions.
I thank him for his work, but they are incomplete.
I've searched but found nothing yet.
artv
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: alextecmen on September 01, 2019, 11:14:26 PM
 author ARMCORTEX   "The only thing that is interesting is the engine that Rakarsky is trying to build and the luttmer patents."

regards
If Mr.’s   Rakarsky project is interesting, but he hasn’t done it, the creation of the nucleus didn’t come out, it means that it is not known if at the end of it he would have satisfactory results.
The important, interesting is trying, as well as many who show in this forum their projects and ideas, and their positive or negative advances, with their failures and successes.
There are already examples and tests of generators projects that worked.
Friend you have a message, check
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: alextecmen on September 03, 2019, 07:11:42 AM
Mr. Rakarsky's experience and knowledge
shows that he will have a successful luttmer patent project
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 03, 2019, 10:35:52 PM
https://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae512.cfm


This quote from the link you provide is correct, to the best of my knowledge.
"Magnetic fields (forces are caused by magnetic fields) cannot be blocked, no. That is, there is no such thing as a magnetic insulator."

Your misunderstanding of the methods I have presented is lame.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 03, 2019, 10:41:00 PM
........ .....
...... ..... ......
.... ....... .........
well where I wanted to go, is that there are materials that achieve this purpose well, one of them is the nu-metal, when I have done some tests, it is surprising to see that on the side where the nu-metal is you can put another magnet and there is no attraction effect with the magnet that is on the other side.

That kind of shielding is exactly what armcoretex apearantly thinks this topic is about, and it not effective.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 03, 2019, 11:55:25 PM
You still have not designed a complete motor, so I dont care about it.

This started in 2016, is there a complete design?

My time bro, please dont waste my time.




Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 04, 2019, 09:22:44 PM
Some revamped / reorganized files.


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 04, 2019, 09:25:55 PM
More files
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on September 04, 2019, 10:12:32 PM
Thank you Floor,

I have downloaded and saved all 6 of your new pdfs.  The second one is especially interesting to me.  I appreciate the amount of work you have been doing with your testing and analyzing of magnetic forces.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 05, 2019, 01:16:57 AM
Thank you Floor,

I have downloaded and saved all 6 of your new pdfs.  The second one is especially interesting to me.  I appreciate the amount of work you have been doing with your testing and analyzing of magnetic forces.

Take care,
Carroll

Its low IQ trash and useless waste of time.

Why Stephen didnt ban you and Floor I dont know.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 05, 2019, 02:29:34 AM
People such as yourselves should attempt replication of a superior machine.

https://overunity.com/18226/physicist-needed-will-this-self-loop/

Thats what you are good for, being extensions of my arms, untill Kapanadze comes and reveals the workings.

Once somebody with a bigger brain  than you and me comes and reveals something big like the Kapanadze flywheel engine, we will drop
my expensive machine. But untill then, this is the best "standard approach" machine that mechanical minded people should attempt. That is just basics of having a 90+ IQ.

Trust me Floor, you would have my support/help if I had good hope in your design. Its not about you, this is strictly business/professionnal. Your red/black magnets will never produce OU. There is no glitch in magnetism, no bug in the system, that will work your way, not the way you are doing it...

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on September 05, 2019, 09:45:59 PM
@ARMCORTEX
A flywheel just store energy. It's not OU.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 05, 2019, 09:53:31 PM
@ARMCORTEX
A flywheel just store energy. It's not OU.


Vidar

Your little jabs followed by radio silence are funny, as you keep on with your ridiculous rube goldberg machine, you are probably thinking in you brain that you have the answer for OU , ROFL...

Seriously, your machine makes me laugh...

Talking to people like you is like talking to a bug eyed autistic kid with ego issues who looks the other way and screams when things dont go his way. I understand that you like to build these things because its good for your mental health, kind of like people
who like to have a pet baby horse alongside them for emotionnal support.

Magnets cannot produce power either, if I am screwed then so are you.

But seriously, flywheels are much more interresting, they can provide imaginary source of power (reactive) and, can provide out large energy in near infitesimal time in a unidirectionnal fashion.

Magnets suck compared to flywheels, they could be good if they could de-materialize and re-materialize to provide pure impulses, sadly this is not star trek.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on September 08, 2019, 10:35:05 PM


ARMCORTEX said on Sept 05 2019

"Magnets cannot produce power"

Here are 3 cases that you need to take a seriously look at.


the Pendulum that swings 2 hrs past its dropped point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzK2XKQ-74


slider based on Butch Lafonte
https://overunity.com/14876/permanent-magnet-ou-machine-working-today/msg445616/#msg445616
mp4 annimation is here
https://overunity.com/14876/permanent-magnet-ou-machine-working-today/dlattach/attach/148504/

and also based on Butch Lafonte
 Power from repelling magnets
https://overunity.com/18288/power-from-repelling-magnets/msg537211/#msg537211


Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on September 09, 2019, 11:20:07 AM
Your little jabs followed by radio silence are funny, as you keep on with your ridiculous rube goldberg machine, you are probably thinking in you brain that you have the answer for OU , ROFL...

Seriously, your machine makes me laugh...

Talking to people like you is like talking to a bug eyed autistic kid with ego issues who looks the other way and screams when things dont go his way. I understand that you like to build these things because its good for your mental health, kind of like people
who like to have a pet baby horse alongside them for emotionnal support.

Magnets cannot produce power either, if I am screwed then so are you.

But seriously, flywheels are much more interresting, they can provide imaginary source of power (reactive) and, can provide out large energy in near infitesimal time in a unidirectionnal fashion.

Magnets suck compared to flywheels, they could be good if they could de-materialize and re-materialize to provide pure impulses, sadly this is not star trek.
You are missing the point. Both magnets and flywheels sucks. None of them can produce energy. My own project is only done to examine the inner workings. Figuring out how the magnetic force behave when the belt rewinds as I turn the rotor. Trying to find where in this design the countertorque is produced. I have never claimed OU - none of my projects have that agenda or claim. It is one and only purpose: Learning. I am not a physicist, so my way of learning is practical experiments.
I am sure you learn alot if you start to build things. You will soon enough figure out that I'm right.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on September 11, 2019, 07:59:36 PM


A new video with some actual measurements.


https://youtu.be/68ChN24x_HU


Constructive comments are welcome.  But please note, if you are just a troll that never actually builds anything and only wants to bash what others are doing then don't waste your time posting as your post will be ignored.  However if you are an actual builder and tester like Floor and Norman and Vidar then your comments are welcome.


Thanks for watching,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 11, 2019, 08:18:24 PM
My building skills are 20 times better than your believe me.

I bash those that cramp the style of better researchers.

Such as you, and those you have named.

BTW, this video is a total waste of time, can you stop wasting people's time?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on September 11, 2019, 09:30:35 PM
Carroll I dispute what Armatex just said. Your video is right on but misses 1 thing. Work is
mass x distance not just force/pounds.

I like to use weights that drop or lift and it is very clear.
So I suggest
1. use a weight to set the device into neutral where it can be repelled in the next step.
2. unset so that it will push/repel away and measure that work.
3. measure how much work is done by the  push/repel away.

In my current device
1 = 1 unit of work oz or lbs x a given distance
2. = 1 unit
3. work out is 6 units of work
giving a net of 4 extra units. And if you cascade that 2 times it becomes 36 when
you take out the set/reset units.

Carroll thank you for making a quality and easy to understand video.
And you are right about no magnetic blocker but "disturbers/balancers" do exist  like Butch Lafonte made.

I suggest that you use the closer stronger repel force to get the most out. That is what I did
and then in Lafonte fashion you can put attraction at the other end so that you get a push/pull for the same movement.

My health recovery has really held me back. I only get about and hr of work done each day.
and it takes another hr to workup a good design.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on September 12, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
Hi Norman,


Thanks for your comments.  I understand what you are saying about force times distance.  In this case the distance is the same for the repelling force as it is for the reset force.  So they cancel each other as far as I can tell.  I do think this can be made into something that will run itself and I have some ideas for how to do that.  I also believe that the same configuration on the other end of the shielding bar could more than double the output.


As far as the silly comments from Armcortex,  you just have to consider the source.  Since he has never actually built anything his comments are worthless.  I doubt he could even build a cube with a whole box of Legos.


I am looking forward to your progress and I understand about the slow pace.  I also had heart problems a few years ago and could hardly even walk across the room without resting.  Fortunately my problem was solved with a pacemaker.  I can now work most of the day without problems.


Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on September 12, 2019, 01:12:45 PM
Carroll I commend you for your civility and commonsense.
And I wish you great success. We all need a better form of energy.
I really appreciate these forums where we can work together where the
sum of the parts can be greater than the parts separately.

The problem I struggle with now is two repelling magnet have
a dish shaped field of force such that when they are close they
are below the repel portion of the dish and will attract but
my linear version should take me were I need to go.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 12, 2019, 03:15:54 PM
No, no, no... Stop being stubbon, stop these squirmings.

Try this instead, its the only "standard aproach, easy to understand" approach that should be investigated, in my simulation the freewheel weight was never launched, it simply had a motor with  rpm and torque, no launch energy was provided. The wheels were all turning and pushing by using centrifugal force only.

No other situation, magnetic, mechanic or otherwise, will ever ever work.

https://overunity.com/18226/physicist-needed-will-this-self-loop/msg538953/#new

The rest, is all non standard, way over your head, we need a massive breakthrough from someboy else, like Rakarsky or something.

If a pulse method, can maintain a cohesive phase/frequency relationship, pulse can be turned into H.P, many HP, it will be size efficient.

Turn the input pushes of the swinging children into rotation force.

The discussion is over, I will let Rakarsky and Stivep educate you henceforth for other non-standard approach.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 12, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
Hi Norman,


Thanks for your comments.  I understand what you are saying about force times distance.  In this case the distance is the same for the repelling force as it is for the reset force.  So they cancel each other as far as I can tell.  I do think this can be made into something that will run itself and I have some ideas for how to do that.  .


Take care,
Carroll

No you dont, its all confused and probably will get exponentially complicated as you really uncover why it doesnt work then you start patching your little leaky boat in a storm, sorry in the end of the day it will not work.

I know, you know, everybody knows.

"I do think this can be made into something that will run itself and I have some ideas for how to do that."

No...You are confused and dazed, you have not even made up the basic structure of the idea, never mind the calculations.

This is standard approach, I have already presented the best of the standard approach.

Theres a ton of non standard patents to try, like the TPU and Kapanadze, these works with something else.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on September 12, 2019, 06:07:49 PM
ARMCORTEX  I will not waste my time getting into a verbal battle. My bench time is much more important and productive. I do my bench work and present the results.
I am very slow due to many activities and poor health.
I have seen many a good idea that had no measurements like the Milkovic pendulum.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 12, 2019, 11:25:18 PM
@Norman6538

Glad your feel better and hope your recovery continues well.

@Citfta Thanks for the interesting new video.

            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on September 13, 2019, 01:20:09 AM
No, no, no... Stop being stubbon, stop these squirmings.

Try this instead, its the only "standard aproach, easy to understand" approach that should be investigated, in my simulation the freewheel weight was never launched, it simply had a motor with  rpm and torque, no launch energy was provided. The wheels were all turning and pushing by using centrifugal force only.

No other situation, magnetic, mechanic or otherwise, will ever ever work.

https://overunity.com/18226/physicist-needed-will-this-self-loop/msg538953/#new (https://overunity.com/18226/physicist-needed-will-this-self-loop/msg538953/#new)

The rest, is all non standard, way over your head, we need a massive breakthrough from someboy else, like Rakarsky or something.

If a pulse method, can maintain a cohesive phase/frequency relationship, pulse can be turned into H.P, many HP, it will be size efficient.

Turn the input pushes of the swinging children into rotation force.

The discussion is over, I will let Rakarsky and Stivep educate you henceforth for other non-standard approach.

http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3039176&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en (http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3039176&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SmY868MVXyg (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SmY868MVXyg)

1 wheel, 2 coupled wheels,3 ....


1 Meter wheel, 2 Meter wheel, 3 ......  radius ~ lever arm to wheel center


10 magnets groups, 20 magnets group, 30 ......

FEMM- SIMULATION

Later improvement option : the coil envelopped iron core = "electro-magnet"  with capacitive winding and pulse power feedback  circuit


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 13, 2019, 06:29:31 PM
lancaIV, can you make sense and express yourself in a way that doesnt sound retarded?

Every post you make is somekind of unreadable format, you and Floor have in common.

Anyways, as to your assumptions,

You need to be system modeler in mathlab.

It must be computed, to be optimized, so this is high level knowledge. People with such skills are rare.

Nobody like that visits these sites.



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on September 14, 2019, 02:06:57 PM
But " virtual system modeler" are anymore rare :
physical model/ prototype in function 4d scanning/ digitizing and macro-/micronizing this model. !
Later directly to 3 d parts printer.

"Lab in an Eprom-chip" included " digital lab workers"
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 14, 2019, 07:19:47 PM
But " virtual system modeler" are anymore rare :
physical model/ prototype in function 4d scanning/ digitizing and macro-/micronizing this model. !
Later directly to 3 d parts printer.

"Lab in an Eprom-chip" included " digital lab workers"

Stop trying to sound mysterious.

Learn proper english and how to structure an argument or sentence that your reader can understand.

Even a non english speaker can do better than your gibberish.

Jackass Twat.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on September 15, 2019, 03:12:45 PM
August, 1982 : language school vacation in Torquay, part from the Torbay.

By the end from this vacation, back to home: Continental Europe , I had to go from uphill City part to dowwnhill,
to the local trainstation.During the way I met an old english Lady/woman and we hold small-talk.By the end from our walk and wishing good-bye she had been surprised to hear which nationality I am :She assumed by the conversation style that I would be english ( child).
So polite ! 8) .
During this vacation our class did a trip to London, our guesthouse near the Piccadilly station, by the next day there had been a greater event :called wedding day from a me directly unknown so called " Prince of Wales" Charles with a nice naive girl named Diana Spencer.
I did some pictures from the Buckingham Palace and the crowed in front and went then through the " human-free" streets in direction Scotland Yard.

15th of september ,2019 : Matosinhos/greater city beside Oporto :
supermarket Lidl : at my front a woman with a chase full of ware
She saw that I only had a package pants in my hands and offered me to go in front of her.She spokes her offer in the english language,in Portugal typical conversation is in portuguese !
my fast response  going in front with the bonmot : " Faster exit before the Brexit !"

During 3 minutes small-talk I noticed : she working as teacher for the " International School",being original from Hartfordshire/county in south of  England.A little concerned about the working conditions as later "E.U.- foreigner" but hoping for the special Britannia/Lusitania relationship !
She asked me ,after giving part of her personality :From which part of America I would come  !
I have had to correct her  opinion : I am German by " ius sanguis" = fathers nationality,my mother natural portuguese and I by " ius terranis" from Maroc/Morocco,natural borned( passive action ) in Casablanca/ North of Africa and actually resident in North-Portugal.

"Tagesspiegel"  translates with " daily mirror" :

real time adventure and life ,not by fake or irrational opinions and assumptions what I and/or floor ( in his own tread) can do and/or are doing in kind and method construction

Your actual attitude is " non grata"  !

In your writings is personality reflection  and social class membership view. !

1972,Farbwerke Hoechst -zu Oporto - Weihnachtsfeier in der Deutschen Schule( seinerzeit noch mit Schwimmbad : mein Bruder lernte " unpolite" :-[ das kalte Wasser in voller Kleidung schneller als Ihm lieb war

( reines "Versehen" meinerseits aber er stand  eben zu nah am Becken  ;D )
meine Schwestern erhielten als Geschenk 45 cm grosse Puppen, besondere Eigenart :ein Ring an einer Schnur, daran gezogen fragte die Puppe : Willst Du mit mir spielen  ?"
Mein forscher Wissensdurst brachte dann ,einige Jahre spaeter, eine kleine Plastik-Scheibe als Mini-Single zutage
musste erst aber einem nakisch dastehen.

An mir haengt kein Ring mit Schnur : aber Spiellust besteht immer. !

proper English - prosper English - ( Karl)  Popper English ( versus Adorno) - Popper( 80' New Wave Style) English
like Pop-art music group style ABC, Spandau Ballett

Can you do with the different generation members a well conversation, with substance and by facts and real argumentation, ARMCORTEX
 or is in ARMCORTEX the german " nomen et omen"- view :arm = poor   reich = rich

About CORTEX and pro/contra about this kind of treatment, Medizin/Medicine -Nobel prize awarded :
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B3nio_Egas_Moniz (https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B3nio_Egas_Moniz)


Happy new week and success in your real life
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 15, 2019, 05:48:07 PM
There you go again, building a wall of gibberish. I have no problems with you using drugs tho.

I am more in the class to build robots, give you your universal paycheck so you can use your little drugs and stay home, and GTFO of my sight and stop causing traffic dammnit. I am an extremely classy guy, I wish to gove everybody what they want.

I think this should be a good solution for Portugal. OU power plants, much drugs, much days off, free soccer TV, much Ronaldo murals, with robot nurses to wipe your ass, and robot doctors operated by german or french doctor.

Now that would be a good future to have for portugal, everybody will be happy, the engineers and inventors will love having free time, those driven people that wish to be doctors can still go to school.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on September 15, 2019, 07:09:41 PM
Oh,  I please for" pardon? "!
It has not been in August /1982 but in 29.07.1981 when Charles and Diana married each other.

So the vacation has not been 1982 but 1981. Times goes bye


"in the class to build robots" : fine " modern" hobby and with great future also as profession

AUTOMATION, this is needed also for the "overunity generator".
Self -learning software to observe the consumer his daily Wattpeak and Wattaverage need.

Day/week/month/year peak/average data sampling ( for this the society get the smartmeter and smartbus netgrid observation technology)



About drugs ab-/use :
Shall we compare hair/inner organs cells probes  ?

Drugs as catalyzer are used for ac-/decelerating abnorm mental situations, by self-medication or by  medicals.

Some are trying to find their "lost luck" with them,  other are trying to escape from their familiar/economical reality  !
Exclusion from social norm : genetical disease

Why are for YOU " drugs" so important. ? Are YOU, alias ARMCORTEX,  consuming il-/legal drugs regular  ?

Your attitude ,alias ARMCORTEX, stays the same and from my view : " non grata". !


floor, you can ever delete this " conflict conversation". ! I am only guest  !


Flywheel technology  : 
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=De&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=goeres&CPC=&IC= (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=De&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=goeres&CPC=&IC=)


To reply #321 the coil unwrapped magnetic groups  :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=20&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20071004&CC=DE&NR=102004020962A1&KC=A1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=20&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20071004&CC=DE&NR=102004020962A1&KC=A1#)


ARMCORTEX, "Radus boots" : for you un/- known. ?
Working with robots: EPROM, processor with internal software: for you un/-known. ? similar approach Intel MMX

https://reprap.org/wiki/RepRap (https://reprap.org/wiki/RepRap)   : un/- known. ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network)

In German : angewandte Kybernetik  ~ applied Kybernetik ( not all should be translated  ;) )


Actually one European Union project. :

https://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/99544/factsheet/en (https://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/99544/factsheet/en)

Dual use civil/military application :
https://www.google.com/search?q=bionic+machine&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m (https://www.google.com/search?q=bionic+machine&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m)

My father ( R. I. P.)  was student from this University  : work theme 1958 " Kybernetik"

https://www.ias.edu/von-neumann (https://www.ias.edu/von-neumann)

Fazit :

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-m&q=artificial+intelligence+versus+humans&oq=artificial+intelligence+versus+humans&aqs=heirloom-srp..0l3 (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-m&q=artificial+intelligence+versus+humans&oq=artificial+intelligence+versus+humans&aqs=heirloom-srp..0l3)
" ...,who will win? " 

                                                                      who shall win. ?
But let us go to the near future : 31. Oktober 2019 and " The Day After"  :Berkow : Order. !  Order. !
If the British payments of the 350 billions debts becomes stopped how have Standart&Poors, Moody's and Fitch  automatic to declare  ?How is Argentinia treated  ?
What the V2 did not reached PM Johnson probably arisc  !?
Automatic computer selling order. !
Milton&Bradley presents :  HMS LONDON SINKING

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: tak22 on September 15, 2019, 10:25:36 PM

Sou eu que uso o Google Translate porque não tenho conhecimentos de português.


O lancaIV vem contribuindo com este site há muitos anos e ele trouxe muitas coisas à minha atenção que eu nunca poderia ter encontrado sozinha.
Sua capacidade de obter informações valiosas sobre uma ampla variedade de tópicos é notável e muito apreciada. Ele vem até mim como uma espécie e
pessoa carinhosa com a intenção de ser útil e esperançosa.


Eu gostaria de poder dizer qualquer uma das opções acima sobre a ARMCORTEX.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on September 16, 2019, 12:33:19 AM
Wow, that got off on a weird tangent.
Cifta, You didn't measure the work used for sliding the"control"magnet into place.
Also you should see the amount of force created with the removal of the control magnet,
on the stack that's not being shielded.(the slider)
artv
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on September 16, 2019, 01:48:16 AM
Hi artv,


You are correct I did not measure the force required to move the shielding magnet back into the shielding position.  I over looked that measurement.  But I am pretty sure it is almost the same as the force required to remove it from between the magnets.  I am going by the feel of it from the many times I have inserted and removed that magnet.


I am not sure what you mean about not measuring the force of the sliding magnet.  I made several measurements of the force required to move it up to the shield magnet and the force required to move it the same distance without the shield magnet.  The difference in force required between those two situations is what I think makes this an interesting study.  The force that will be applied to the sliding magnet when the shield magnet is removed is going to be the same as the force shown when pulling the slide into the same position it would be when the shield magnet is in place.


In other words the force that will be applied to the slide when the shield magnet is removed is about 5 to 6 times the force needed to get it back into that position because of the neutralizing effect of the shield magnet which really should be called a force balancing magnet as like I said in the video it really isn't a shield.  But calling it a shield magnet is just more convenient and probably helps people understand its function better.


Thanks for your comments,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 23, 2019, 11:54:56 PM
@ Lanka TV

QUOTE from Lanka TV   "floor, you can ever delete this " conflict conversation". ! I am only guest  !
"END QUOTE

No worries Lanka TV.  We all get caught up in some troll's baiting once in a while. Your posts are very welcome on my topics.

Been very busy
   best wishes
               floor



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Raycathode on September 29, 2019, 09:59:06 AM
Hi you guys I found this on Youtube thought you might find this video interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2DASGBEHws
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 30, 2019, 04:39:38 PM
@raycathode

Over unity from momentum ?

                    No.

Magnets can't fix or change that fact.

                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 02, 2019, 05:46:50 PM
I think citfta did it.

I don't know the importance of Floor, citfta started to make what Floor had written, but the device that he measured was his own design. I don't know how much came from Floor, but i think also something, as also may be something from others here.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on October 02, 2019, 06:58:43 PM
ayeaye,


Builder and tester "floor" has spent many many hours working with  the interactions of magnets.  He has included many PDF documents in this and his other thread.  He has also posted many videos of his work.  I only tried to apply what I have learned from his PDFs and videos.  If you want to learn a lot about interactions of magnets please take the time to read both of floor's threads and watch his videos and read his PDFs.


Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 02, 2019, 07:13:58 PM
#333 : I think that this "NO! " is classical Physics view related,

Quantummechanically : Quantumelectrodynamique + Quantumchromodynamique. : ' Think/Say never : " NO! "  !'

tempus, locus : in-/ syn-chronisity. ? Wormhole-theory. ?

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fm.spiegel.de%2Fwissenschaft%2Ftechnik%2Fphysiker-melden-neuen-quantenrekord-2000-atome-an-zwei-orten-a-1289502.html


Object. ( virtual)  INTERFACE Human
Subject ( virtual)  INTERFACE Human

Object INTERFACE Subject
Subject INTERFACE Object

                   physical " moment " : external or internal impulse ,actio/reactio angle as ° and direction ?

                 movement : not communication ? attraction !?  rejection !?   resistere / sistere

                                     center/ nucleus/core      near/er             far/er


F.e. : a 2 in x 2 in x 2 in N52 Neodym "supermagnet" becomes cutted into 500 0,1 mm thin film plates/foils andthese enroling to tubes :  + / positive pole  and - / negative pole per side

these tube(s) now enroling to a donut : plus/ minus pole  ? outside/inside polarisation. ?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 02, 2019, 07:40:40 PM
citfta,

I have also spent many hours working with interaction of magnets and with the theory of overunity about the magnetic fields and also in solid state devices, also posted this and my videos here. I show here only my this drawing  https://ia800903.us.archive.org/22/items/Flcm4/pmmbp12.jpg . This shows how the asymmetry of the magnetic field (two poles) can enable overunity. In theory any asymmetric field can do continuous work, this is one way how a magnetic field can do it. I'm sure that the effect that you showed is based on the same asymmetry. I have not thoroughly analyzed your case, but i showed the theoretical reason in the simplest case, involving only two magnets.

I read the Floor's pdf-s, they were very long and seem to contain a lot of useless information. I maybe couldn't find the essence in them that made you to do your experiment, but i likely didn't read them thoroughly.

But you hit the nail, the matter is that you did hit the nail, not Floor or anyone else, though the contributions of others are certainly important.

I see that this is important not only about the magnets, but for the theory of overunity in general. More work should be done on that theory. Because i see that the reason for overunity is always the same, it is that the electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom don't fall to the nucleus, even when they do work. No matter whether the device is magnetic, solid state, or even mechanical. I also explained the reason why for that reason the energy may come from the zero point and go back to zero point. Every time a field does work, even when you drop an object and it falls to the floor.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 04, 2019, 05:11:32 PM
This is the diagram of the citfta experiment, see the citfta'a las video with measurements. The diagram was made with dia.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on October 05, 2019, 01:18:05 AM
I have been doing a lot of testing of an idea Floor presented in this PDF: 2 Mirror Engine.


I have attached a copy of it to this post.


I believe from my testing this idea may be the most important idea so far presented by Floor.


I highly suggest you study it carefully.  Especially the section about the thickness of the metal between the opposing magnets.


Respectfully,
Carroll




Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 05, 2019, 04:40:01 PM
This shield magnet has to be thin there, so that the left magnet could go near enough to the right magnet, for there to be enough repulsion. And it should be thick enough so that the repulsive force of the right magnet will not go through it. Exactly the right size, not much to play with.

It seems that by now, several experiments show a small amount of overunity on permanent magnets. This is seemingly not great though, and when making an actual continuously working device, it may not be even able to overcome friction.

Norman was right in that energy is force multiplied by distance. Thus the repulsive force should properly be measured after every small intervals, as it decreases very rapidly, then these forces multiplied by intervals should be added. Or when the speed by which the repulsive force decreases can be found, then this can be used to calculate energy from the maximum force.

Thus measuring only the maximum forces is not enough. I'm also sure that when these calculations are done, the overunity appears to be even smaller. Yet it seems convincing that there is some overunity.

Also very important that for the first time someone actually did measurements with permanent magnets. Though maybe not quite rightly done at first, these measurements are important, Because even when all looks convincing, only measurements and calculations show how it actually is. Like there is a force two times more, but when it then appears that the distances differ two times, then the actual overunity is zero in spite of this.

To convert it into newtons, 1 N = 0.10197 kg = 0.22481 pounds. Energy in joules is force in newtons, multiplied by distance in meters, 1 J = 1 N * 1 m .

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 07, 2019, 01:02:48 AM
citfta,

I'm sorry but, i did calculations based on what i could see in your video with measurements, and i found that your input energy was 1.76 times greater than the output energy. While this estimation is certainly not highly precise, i can say for sure that there was no overunity. The biggest problem was shifting the shield magnet, that took 139 mJ, this alone was more than the output energy.

Check that the calculations are correct, though they most likely are. I estimated that your two magnets were 50 x 50 x 20 mm, and the shield magnet was 50 x 50 x 10 mm.

Repulsion:
0 mm -- 1 pound 6 ounces = 623.68952 g = 6.11630483131 N
10 mm -- 13 ounces = 368.54376 g = 3.614179664 N
20 mm -- 8 ounces = 226.79616 g = 2.22411056246 N
30 mm -- 4 ounces = 113.39808 g = 1.11205528123 N

Calculating average values for each 10 mm segment, as perhaps the best approximation:
10 mm -- 4.86525 N
20 mm -- 2.91915 N
30 mm -- 1.66805 N

Output energy:
E = (4.86525 + 2.91915 + 1.66805) * 10 = 94.5245 mJ

Moving towards the shield magnet:
30 mm -- 3 ounces = 85.04856 g = 0.8340 N
20 mm -- 3 ounces = 85.04856 g = 0.8340 N
10 mm -- 4 ounces = 113.39808 g = 1.1120 N

Energy of moving towards the shield magnet:
E = (0.8340 + 0.8340 + 1.1120) * 10 = 27.7000 mJ

Force of shifting the shield magnet:
5 ounces = 141.7476 g = 1.39006910154 N

Energy of shifting the shield magnet two times, 50 * 2 = 100 mm:
E = 1.3900 * 100 = 139.0000 mJ

Input energy:
E = 139.000 + 27.700 = 166.700 mJ

Output energy:
E = 94.5245 mJ

It looks like that in theory it should work, as shifting the shield magnet should in theory need no force at all. But 1.39 N that it needs in practice, plus shifting it the total distance of 100 mm, results in practice in no energy gain at all.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on October 07, 2019, 03:02:46 AM
The problem I had with the magnet between 2 magnets is the geometry of closer stronger and further weaker. To get much power the magnet between had to have some thickness and that makes the two other magnets further/weaker. So I switched to metal between two repelling magnets. It will pull itself in and if that work done is saved it can be used to pull the metal back out and have an almost work free 1. set to do work 2. do work and 3. unset to repeat step 1. and the power geometry is closer stronger repel while the step 1. set to do work is also closer stronger and on 2 sides.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 07, 2019, 04:05:05 PM
These conversions, so one would not have to search for these constants.

1 pound is 16 ounces.

1 kg is 1000 g.

5 ounces = 5 * 28.34952 = 141.7476 g

141.7476 g = 141.7476 * 0.00980665 = 1.3900 N

Forces are measured in newtons (N), because newton is a unit of force. Ounce and g are units of weight, weight is a force caused by gravity.

When the distances are measured in millimeters, then by multiplying these by force, we get energy in mJ (milli joule, that is 1/1000 of joule).

The scale that was used in that video is called a fish scale, as it is likely mostly used for weighing fishes. They sell such scales in eBay for $5. But it is similar to scales used in physics experiments for measuring forces.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 08, 2019, 04:31:36 PM
The constant to convert ounces to newtons, is 0.27801382, or maybe 0.278 is precise enough, if this may be anyhow important, 1 pound is 16 ounces. Newtons are maybe closest to ounces.

The energy in milli joules is force in newtons multiplied by the distance in mm moved by that force. How fast it is moved is not important, only the distance and force are important for this.

Norman, yes, when an iron shield is attracted, then the energy for that should be considered an output, not input. Pulling an iron or even a mu metal shield out needs quite a lot of force though. Mu metal can be taken out from an old hard drive, at least this is how i got it.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Raycathode on October 13, 2019, 07:55:26 AM
A  working magnetic motor  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBtxjyD01lo
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on October 13, 2019, 01:27:02 PM
Sorry but it is not a working magnetic motor.  It has been investigated and it was found the electrical controlling system was contributing power into keep the machine running.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 13, 2019, 02:19:53 PM
"it has been investigated ":

What has been investigated  ?

" Magnetic force input / Magnetic force output " ratio. !?

"Magnetic force input + electromagnetic force input / Magnetic force output ". ratio.  !?

electro- magnetic controler :  " pure" DC, pulsed DC,AC ? Measurment method.  ?

electro-magnetic controler with-/ out. feedback circuit.  ?


When we see this JLN LAB demonstration as " repeatable fact" the " balance gain" by linear experiment. :

Using for " linear track"  (espacenet archiv William Putt )

or how "translate : " translatory." as one from the 3 physics freedom states " to rotatory :360° forward or backward movement. ?


http://jnaudin.online.fr/html/2magpup.htm (http://jnaudin.online.fr/html/2magpup.htm)

included Naudins link how probably with success to use this " repeatable fact". :
http://jnaudin.online.fr/html/mppprop.htm
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 13, 2019, 05:58:59 PM
Ok, then needs to be investigated, before taken seriously. This thread is also about measurements, i didn't see much measurements there.

What people often don't realize, is that overunity is about maximum efficiency, so it also often needs high precision. I also wrote this in another thread.

PS I estimated that when citfta could reduce the force of shifting the shield magnet to 2 ounces, then he may have overunity. To achieve that would likely be very difficult though, as he already uses linear movement on ball bearings. It looks like though that in spite the movement is on ball bearings, it takes quite a force to move a magnet there, even if no forces affect it. Like moving towards the shield magnet may not have any force at all, it is at least 3 ounces, as if it always requires 3 ounces to move a magnet there. I don't know. But even if he can reduce the shifting to 2 ounces, his scales would likely have not enough precision to show the overunity, as the final calculations error with the scales he used would likely be +/-1 ounce, not better. Unless he perhaps tests the scales and shows that they have a higher precision, that these scales very unlikely have.

One more thing. Measuring forces when moving towards the right magnet is correct, as what one needs to know is the force at various distances from the right magnet. But the forces at different distances should be measured when the left magnet stands still, because otherwise the force of friction would be added to the force, as if it were an output force, while it really is an input force.

As i said, the higher precision scales used in physics experiments similar to the ones citfta used, are called "force gauge", and they cost $50 and up.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 13, 2019, 08:11:25 PM
If One is so inclined, so as to accurately take measurements of the energy present in a
set of magnet interactions.

Don't take it lightly.

This can be an elaborate and time consuming process.

When poorly done, it is as bad as, or worse than no measurements at all.

                               floor

   see the PDF files attached
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 13, 2019, 08:33:15 PM
1.The presenter should video document the METHODS used
during the measuring process.

Because, there are so many ways to botch measurements... the presenter would be wise, to do a video which demonstrates the technique to be used for EACH action to be measured.....before the actual measurement sets are taken.  This will save the presenter, a lot of time and frustration.


2. Each measurement should be taken 5 or more times, and an averaged value,
then used in the calcs.


3. Write every measurement (in a chart which was prepared for that purpose).

    see example chart below
 
    a graph would be optional / nice
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 13, 2019, 08:47:25 PM
I recommend as well, that the experimenter, design / print out, a set of pages
just to write down the measurements on as they are taken .

5 measurements of each force applied and displacement that resulted.

as few as 5 or as many as 25 measurements per magnet action.

3 input actions and one output action to measure.

5 x 5 x 3 = 75 (3 Inputs) ?
                   and
5 x 25 (1 out put) = 75 = as maybe as many as 150 measurements total (typical).


              best wishes
                       floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 14, 2019, 12:17:39 AM
5 measurements, well that is. We need at least 5 measurements of the repelling output force. Better more, near the magnet where the force is the greatest, better to measure after every 2 mm, as the force changes the most there. Now, when we add the energies (work, work is energy) for all these small distances, the error increases. Taking average of several measurements, decreases the error. Depends also on the precision of the scales. Maybe as many measurements each time, as many distances we measure?

The magnetic force should decrease inverse of the distance in square. But in the reality it may differ, depends on the shape of the magnets, etc, so it cannot really be calculated, thus it should be measured after every small distances. Unless we perhaps see how it decelerates.

To do it with all the measurements, and to do it rightly, is really a great task by itself. Even when the actual device is the most simple.

And now we who only do here blah blah, don't do any experiments ourselves, only talk. One person does experiments, maybe two, several others do blah blah. I hope that i did more than talking though, that there has been some use of that which i wrote.

That is, when one does any measurements, then it at once enables many to talk, and find what was wrong, and whatever. It is though that, when one does no measurements, then such experiment should likely be rejected at once. When people talk, this means that the experiment was accepted, citfta did a great job.

The error calculation, when calculating the worst value, and then the best value, then the difference is the error. The problem is though that we need to add many energies at different distances, so if we calculate with the worst values in the scales error range, and then the best, the error will become very great, when we need to add many values. The matter is though, that when the forces are different, then the errors are likely more random, that is, they are not all to one side. Then it may be enough to calculate the error of the greatest energy, maximum value minus minimal value, and consider that to be the error of the whole calculation. In case of the citfta's experiment, if we consider the error of the scale 1 ounce, and even if we consider the maximum energy shifting the shield magnet 50 mm, then the calculation error will still be 28 mJ.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 14, 2019, 01:24:02 PM
So, ayeaye, we are only doing actually " blah blah " :

do you a. not  b. think that some of us did c. not their " home work" about
magnetic and electromagnetic force,energy,work,power in their past ?


http://www.victorcassar.com/ims.html (http://www.victorcassar.com/ims.html)
http://www.imsolution.com.au/fluxgraphs-entry.html (http://www.imsolution.com.au/fluxgraphs-entry.html)

JLN LAB "push & pull"- demonstration 1998. !
Permanent magnet force/ energy/ work "attraction/repulsion" potential distance related

compared
with exemplary electro-magnets :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19820817&CC=US&NR=4345174A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19820817&CC=US&NR=4345174A&KC=A#)

"....... The Operation of the inventive engine 10 wil now be decribed.  ..... "
2 x https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_battery (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_battery)  per electro-magnet = pure DC

By " pulsed DC" induction  !?

Electro-magnet with capacitive band-/foil- condenser winding and " pulsed DC" induction  !?

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20040226&CC=DE&NR=20317795U1&KC=U1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20040226&CC=DE&NR=20317795U1&KC=U1#)

Electro-magnet with capacitive coils-condenser winding and " pulsed DC" induction. !?

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Envez&IN=&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Envez&IN=&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search)


Rotoric electro-/permanent magnet wheel :
only 16.,17.18.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Oskar+becker&IN=Oskar+becker&CPC=&IC= (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Oskar+becker&IN=Oskar+becker&CPC=&IC=)

18.                         "  THE POWER REQUIREMENT.  ......... ONE ELECTROMAGNET.    "......
http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3826970&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en (http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3826970&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en)


Compare : http://maddsci.tripod.com/george/id10.html (http://maddsci.tripod.com/george/id10.html)
                   http://maddsci.tripod.com/george/id11.html (http://maddsci.tripod.com/george/id11.html).   " torque out for Watt in "  :)


 
I spoke with him more than an hour via phone,now 2019 : Keith Kenyon R.I.P.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=14&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19711005&CC=US&NR=3610974A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=14&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19711005&CC=US&NR=3610974A&KC=A#)

idem : now 2019: R.I.P.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20081118&CC=US&NR=7453341B1&KC=B1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20081118&CC=US&NR=7453341B1&KC=B1#)

William J.  Putt :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=William+putt&IN=&CPC=&IC= (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=William+putt&IN=&CPC=&IC=)

Horst von Heyer
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=Von+heyer&CPC=&IC= (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=Von+heyer&CPC=&IC=)

Some researcher are " old school" : copying and working with different colour pencils and doing abstracts to concrete  !
"Permanent magnets" have their advantages but also disadvantages as " power source"  !

Fixed or variable speed ( R.P.M. and torque in Nm ) output  linear or rotatoric motor concept !

I hope for you that their written " blahblah" helps by your own development. !
Electro-motor power density prediction : 40 KW/ Kg. !

Your "permanent magnet" power density prediction/target. ,ayeaye. !?

The Flynn brothers worked over 25 year to optimize their PPM concept. !
Working with patience and concentration and precision. !

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-m&q=parallel+path+flnn+research&oq=parallel+path+flnn+research&aqs=heirloom-srp (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-m&q=parallel+path+flnn+research&oq=parallel+path+flnn+research&aqs=heirloom-srp)..

https://studfiles.net/preview/8199619/page:2/ (https://studfiles.net/preview/8199619/page:2/)
"PAGE 10. Additional Observations : 

finite element analysis : real force conformity versus physical divergence = syntax error


Why they went back in their magnet material use : from Neodym to ferrit ceramic magnets.  ?

Ernie Esters : modular multi motors and/ or modular multi generator couple  on one shaft :

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=3&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19801111&CC=US&NR=4233532A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=3&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19801111&CC=US&NR=4233532A&KC=A#)



Sincerely
OCWL
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on October 14, 2019, 03:51:41 PM
why does not it work?
https://youtu.be/9WIUeWwjNBA (https://youtu.be/9WIUeWwjNBA)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 14, 2019, 07:04:55 PM
So, ayeaye, we are only doing actually " blah blah "

I prefer to do one thing.

I just actually wrote how to measure, the simplest way. I'm not an expert in measurements in mechanics of course, but i can do it the simplest way. And, there was a use of it, i did calculations that showed that citfta got no overunity, i hope there was a use of it for citfta, and others who do similar experiments.

Measuring many times, well, there are all standard deviations and things. Yes, i can calculate these too. But this is only like, when hand error caused different measurements. The greatest error there comes from the scales i think, and when measuring the same value many times with scales, the error may be systematic, that is, always the same. An error is more random with scales, when measuring different values. The real error of scales can be found like when weighing known weights, but for that there have to be several different weights, finding the greatest error. Partly because of the nature of scales, again, measuring only one value, even when doing that many times, does not do it more reliably.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 14, 2019, 08:40:05 PM
why does not it work?
https://youtu.be/9WIUeWwjNBA (https://youtu.be/9WIUeWwjNBA)

Because there is no overunity in that thing.

You may try to replicate my experiment instead  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 , if you have an old computer fan and an old CD. The drawing explaining why it should work  https://ia800903.us.archive.org/22/items/Flcm4/pmmbp12.jpg . Again, it depends on the shape of the field, it does not work in the Coulumb model, but a real magnetic field differs from that, and when it differs, it should work in theory. As i said, it should be replicated with measuring the peak force, and triggering not dependent on the hand movement. But even when there is overunity, it is likely not enough to overcome friction.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on October 15, 2019, 10:13:24 AM
I don't believe that drawing is correct.
I believe that the n and s in a magnet are isolated from each other.
An end on view ,the field curves around and terminates at the middle of the thickness, not at the other pole.
artv
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on October 15, 2019, 10:45:13 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjAQUkHuTn8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjAQUkHuTn8)
when the energy for pulling the stick is taken from the outside, (electricity, electromagnet) controlled by the hall sensor, the drum rotates.apparently, the energy from rotation and the energy for pulling a magnetic stick are equal.
dead end way?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 15, 2019, 10:56:25 AM
I don't believe that drawing is correct.
I believe that the n and s in a magnet are isolated from each other.
An end on view ,the field curves around and terminates at the middle of the thickness, not at the other pole.
artv

How to say, this drawing is really not a correct depiction of any magnetic field. It is just to show the concept. It doesn't work with the Coulomb model. Coulomb model is like both poles having a separate spherical, that is symmetric field. But a real magnetic field differs from the Coulomb model. And if the field lines are more parallel to the axis between the poles, then there may be enough asymmetry to enable overunity.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 15, 2019, 11:38:13 AM
How to say, this drawing is really not a correct depiction of any magnetic field. It is just to show the concept. It doesn't work with the Coulumb model. Coulumb model is like both poles having a separate spherical, that is symmetric field. But a real magnetic field differs from the Coulumb model. And if the field lines are more parallel to the axis between the poles, then there may be enough asymmetry to enable overunity.

ayeaye ,is a compass needle  movement for you " overunity" ? Peregrinus. !
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 15, 2019, 12:44:25 PM
ayeaye ,is a compass needle  movement for you " overunity" ?

I mean doing continuous work, this is what is mostly understood as overunity. Otherwise, dropping an object is likely overunity, the gravitational field does work to increase its speed, true? Then also a movement of a compass needle is overunity, the magnetic field does work, where the energy comes from? But in case of the compass needle the magnetic field doesn't do continuous work, so it's not overunity like it is mostly understood.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 15, 2019, 01:28:27 PM
I mean doing continuous work, this is what is mostly understood as overunity. Otherwise, dropping an object is likely overunity, the gravitational field does work to increase its speed, true? Then also a movement of a compass needle is overunity, the magnetic field does work, where the energy comes from? But in case of the compass needle the magnetic field doesn't do continuous work, so it's not overunity like it is mostly understood.
Is electricity stream by pulsed or alternating current " continuous work". ?
Is the permanent magnet quantum-magnetoelectric work to see like DC,pulsative or alternating  ?
Is a permanent magnet in absolute " continuous work" ,slow motion observation ?

What is the influence " over Curie - temperature" and/ or"lower Kelvin". ? Temperature/ magnetic field strengh ,Temperature/ magnetic flow

Instead 165 Watt only 33 Watt for same output as bicycle drive by same torque and rpm :

only" peakconsume/ inertia" to " average consume" harmonizing ?
https://patents.google.com/patent/DE3931611A1/de

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 15, 2019, 01:37:46 PM
Is electricity stream by pulsed or alternating current " continuous work". ?

No, there the field does not do continuous work, it works a limited time in one direction, this is also the reason why the current is alternating. These electromagnetic processes are very symmetric, it is a question how to break symmetry there.

PS Coulomb model, not Coulumb model, i fixed that before.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 15, 2019, 01:48:16 PM
https://www.apfelkiste.ch/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1000x/dbb748385a9a10925f0976de833f349b/n/e/neodym-magnet-kugel-puzzle-bunt_18_.jpg (https://www.apfelkiste.ch/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1000x/dbb748385a9a10925f0976de833f349b/n/e/neodym-magnet-kugel-puzzle-bunt_18_.jpg)

From round ( each individual symmetry) to quadratic(  = several body related asymmetry)

Has the electrostatic field and the magnetic field the same direction. ?https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=Wheel&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Donald+kelly&IN=Donald+kelly&CPC=&IC= (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=Wheel&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Donald+kelly&IN=Donald+kelly&CPC=&IC=)
From "compass/Earth" to Kelly's " magnetic torque multiplier" wheel. !
And the referring "citing documents" !
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 16, 2019, 12:18:34 AM
I think that citfta did a very important experiment, for the first time a permanent magnet device was measured. What the result will be, maybe nothing, just eroding a fixed ideas.

Floor, please understand, scales have some systematic error. Means measuring the same value several times may not increase precision. This systematic error is though mostly tied to the value, thus when measuring different values, the error can be considered to be random. Measuring the same force with several different scales, may  increase precision though, but the scales should then be preferably different types, so they don't have the same systematic error.

I said that in that case, the best may be to calculate the error of the greatest measured energy, and then consider that to be the error of the whole calculation. When this energy is significantly great. Like i think that citfta can safely consider the error of the energy of shifting the shield magnet, as the error of the final result of the calculation. That is likely the force of shifting multiplied by 100 mm in that case. This would be the error of the difference between the input and output energy. As this energy is the greatest and the most significant in his experiment. The other measured energies are all much smaller, and with a very high probability, their errors are not all to one direction.

Measuring that energy with fish scales though, would have a very great error. Such scales, as i asked from other people who have such scales, indeed have an error +/-1 ounce, thus like when it shows 5 ounces, it may also be 4 ounces or 6 ounces. Thus in that case of shifting the shield magnet, the measured force was 5 * 0.278 = 1.390 N, with the error +/-1 ounce, that is +/-0.278 N, that is the minimum and maximum values will be 1.112 N and 1.668 N. The energy of shifting will thus be 1.39 N * 100 mm = 139.0 mJ, with the minimum value 111.2 mJ, and the maximum value 166.8 mJ. The error of the difference between the input and output energies will then be 139.0 - 111.2 = +/-27.8 mJ, regardless of what the other measured energies will be.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 16, 2019, 12:13:17 PM
An end on view ,the field curves around and terminates at the middle of the thickness, not at the other pole.

Yes and this is a good thing, this makes it more to one direction.

How can i say it intuitively. The magnetic field is caused by electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom. The force is between these orbiting electrons, like one may think that it is between two circles, though they are kind of clouds. But nevertheless, this makes the force to be more in one direction, than in the Coulomb model. That is, for that reason the magnetic field differs from the poles being just a point charges, in that case it were symmetric, a spherical field is symmetric. As it is not entirely symmetric in that way, one could assume that it is asymmetric. And in theory an asymmetric field should be able to do continuous work.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on October 18, 2019, 11:35:06 AM
Ayeaye,




Would you PLEASE do some basic research before posting.  You have made many posts in this and the other threads about magnetic interactions that show you have not taken the time to do any real research.  I don't mean setting up a big lab with a lot of expensive equipment.  I mean that you should at least take the time to read all of a thread before posting.  It is just not polite to read a couple of posts and then jump in with comments.


I say this because of some comments you have made in your posts.  If you had read ALL of the posts in this and the other threads you would have seen the other videos I have posted.  If you had seen them you would have seen how I mounted the aluminum rails so they could move freely. And you would have seen how many bearings were on each rail.,


If you had actually read all of Norman't posts in his thread you would have seen references to what he is doing and would understand his picture he posted.


If you would take the time to actually get some magnets and work with them you would soon realize your idea of free energy from a magnet will probably not work.  My work and others seem to show that your sketch of magnetic forces does not seem to be supported by real world testing.


I mean no disrespect but hope you will realize that making comments about others without taking the time to really understand what they are doing is not a good way to build a relationship with them.


Respectfully,
Carroll

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 18, 2019, 02:09:28 PM
If you had seen them you would have seen how I mounted the aluminum rails so they could move freely. And you would have seen how many bearings were on each rail.,

No, i only watched your video with measurements, i have not watched your other videos.

> If you would take the time to actually get some magnets and work with them you would soon realize your idea of free energy from a magnet will probably not work.  My work and others seem to show that your sketch of magnetic forces does not seem to be supported by real world testing.

Well, if you now did watch my video that i posted together with that drawing, then you did see that i did an experiment, that also showed overunity, that though couldn't overcome friction, and it was not completely independent of the hand movement. That is, something that everyone can try oneself, but not that a video only can show. But if you come up with that argument, you had to first see my video.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on October 19, 2019, 02:18:18 AM
I watched your video, and the ones after that too.
There's no overunity there.
Just a circular V-gate.
The problem you had with the spot where the magnet wouldn't align,
Is where the field terminates.
artv
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 19, 2019, 03:08:36 AM
Just a circular V-gate.
The problem you had with the spot where the magnet wouldn't align,
Is where the field terminates.

No, it is not V-gate, the magnets are at equal distance from the edge of the disk. One thing that can be certainly said, is that it is not V-gate.

Now it was meant to be, that the force near the peak of the first magnet, is equal when moving in both directions. That it is equal, can only be felt by hand in that design. Yet one can feel that the forces really are equal, when doing it oneself. Both are as close to the peak of the force, as possible, and i did all i could to move it as close to the peak of force both times, as ever possible. I also tried it several times, and found that it was so several times, whatever can be the error of the hand, it is not the same several times.

Now considering that the forces in both direction were equal, it moved two times more by the chain of magnets, than in the opposite direction. And the chain of magnets was not V-gate. This indicates overunity.

In theory it should rotate continuously, having such chain of magnets. But it doesn't, because the overunity is not greater than friction.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on October 19, 2019, 01:56:25 PM
https://youtu.be/VccPX8Dq6yo (https://youtu.be/VccPX8Dq6yo)
it doesn’t rotate either. This is what I myself came up with. :)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 20, 2019, 04:34:54 AM
Citfta, you think, but do you let me to think?

What to think, is just in general, what do we deal with?

Both your and my experiments are about overunity due to asymmetry of the magnetic field, that is caused by it having two poles.

I think the force when shifting the shield magnet in your experiment is only friction, as it seems to remain constant during all shifting.

In that case it can be considered that your experiment did show overunity, and the measurement also showed it, but again the overunity that cannot overcome friction. And it may be said that my experiment did the same.

Now if true, there are two ways to overcome this. Decrease friction, or increase overunity. In my case for the latter, like maybe the shape of the field can be changed by adding some shielding to every magnet, so that the propulsion would increase. I'm not completely sure about that.

But friction, it cannot be infinitely decreased, and it is greater, the greater are the forces causing it. So it may be a problem that cannot be overcome, better ball bearings may not help.

But it is extremely important to understand and find out what we deal with. No overunity, or overunity that cannot overcome friction. There is a huge difference between the two.

In the latter case we really found overunity, and we showed that in an experiment. Which i think could been the case in my experiment. You maybe have to find out more whether it also could be the case in your experiment. Congratulation then, then you really did show overunity.

Just to see the difference between overunity that cannot overcome friction, and the experiments like these which kolbacict just did, like V-gate. This has no overunity in theory, and also the experiments don't show any overunity. So there is a great difference, the former can be called overunity experiments, and the latter only permanent magnet experiments, playing with magnets.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 24, 2019, 04:03:23 AM
The Citfta's experiment with the shield magnet, also has no overunity in the Coulomb model, that is when the poles are considered to be point charges. Correct me if i'm wrong. The attraction and repulsion of the shield magnet will then always be equal for both the left and right magnets, but the repulsion between them will remain the same no matter whether the shield magnet is in between or not. That is by the Coulomb model, it is as if the shield magnet were not there, its effect is zero and it does no shielding.

Thus when there is any overunity in that device, even disregarding friction, that the Citfta's experiment seems to show, then it is again due to the real magnetic fields differing from the Coulomb model. That is again, when there is asymmetry in the magnetic field. In the Coulomb model the fields of the poles are spherical, that is symmetric, and maybe then it can also be said that the magnetic field is symmetric. But real magnetic fields differ from the Coulomb model, and thus may be asymmetric.

The asymmetry of the magnetic field may be seen as fields of the poles not being spherical or such, any difference from the Coulomb model, where both poles are considered to be separate spherical fields. And the distribution of the field strength may also differ due to interaction.

My another two cents.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 25, 2019, 10:56:33 AM
That said, i think Citfta's and my experiments should be simulated with FEMM. FEM using Maxwell equations may show the kind of asymmetry that i talked about, and thus maybe also overunity. Some say that some simulations of permanent magnet devices have showed overunity, though they were not physically made showing overunity. Maybe the reason was friction again, i have not studied these cases. FEMM is not very difficult to use as a software, they sure tried to make it as easy to use as possible. But going into the simulation requires certain work of course. FEMM is in Windows though, and i use Linux. And i don't have enough time for such work. Interesting though, neither experiments show overunity by the Coulomb model, do they do by the Maxwell equations.

I think that this is all i can say by now. What i want to say is that the reason for overunity may be a certain asymmetry of the magnetic field, in that when a pole is seen as a point, the field near it is not completely spherical, or not always completely spherical. Different from the Coulomb model where the field around a pole is always perfectly spherical. This is a kind of asymmetry that one cannot easily see. Say we draw a line between the two poles of a magnet, and other line crossing that line perpendicularly in the middle. The field is symmetric at the both sides of the first line, and at the both sides of the second line, a perfect four sector symmetry. Yet it still may be asymmetric in another way, in that the field near a pole may not always be completely spherical.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on November 05, 2019, 06:41:22 PM
The rest is in that thread  https://overunity.com/18288/power-from-repelling-magnets/60/  look at it, please do.