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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Floor on November 01, 2016, 02:11:43 AM

Title: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 01, 2016, 02:11:43 AM
Magnets, motion and measurement

This topic is being created for discussion of the conventional scientific
descriptions of

energy
work
force
and power
 
and the methods of their measurement.

ESPECIALLY AS THEY APPLY TO MAGNETIC INTERACTIONS.
................................
It is also for discussion of both the conventional descriptions of magnet interactions
and
new theories observations and so on.

                       floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 05, 2016, 09:29:46 PM
Please find the attached document "MeasPhy(10-N).pdf"

It is still a work in progress.

Corrections are welcome / needed.

Please do not redistribute it.

                  cheers
                    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 26, 2016, 06:52:05 PM
Please find the attached,  next version of the Magnets Motion and Measurement document
"MeasPhy(10-P).pdf".

                  best wishes
                    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 27, 2016, 05:16:07 PM
A special thank you to those who have contributed to / offered corrections to
the project.
                        best wishes
                                floor

Please find the attached file "MeasPhy(10-Q). pdf
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 01, 2016, 09:04:30 PM
@ aal readers

Again

 thank you to those who have contributed to / offered corrections to
the project. I think It's starting to get to a well polished state.

Please discard previous versions and find the attached file "MeasPhy(10-S). pdf
                       
                                floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 09, 2017, 07:04:53 PM
@norman6538

I don't think of "Near Strong / Far weak" as being exceptionally
problematic.

 See the attached file below
 
                  regards
                    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on January 09, 2017, 08:21:18 PM
@norman6538

I don't think of "Near Strong / Far weak" as being exceptionally
problematic.

 See the attached file below
 
                  regards
                    floor




That would be a great way to compensate mechanically. But think of it this way.
When close and like poles first there is a strong push and then a weak push. And
when far and opposite poles there is a weak pull so little work can even get started.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 11, 2017, 02:58:54 AM
@Norman6538

quote
"when far and opposite poles there is a weak pull so little work can even get started" end quote

In the TD (twist drive) pass through 5 version,  it doesn't work that way.

                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 11, 2017, 06:16:49 AM
When you think of near and far, weak and strong
Many combinations can be made magnetically
Approx as many as there are atomic configurations
Perhaps more


A guy came out with a "magnetic tractor beam"
Uses weak (close) forces in combination with
Strong (far) forces
As the interacting field approaches the effective field
of the stronger magnet, the strong force takes over.


The new 3-d printed complex magnets can create a near
infinite combination force domains to customize your fields.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on January 12, 2017, 11:37:26 PM
Here's a video I found if the tractor beam.
There's literally a near infinite things you can do with this
From the "thors hammer" you can't pick up, to precision
controlled actuators.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hUtnMh0EBBc (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hUtnMh0EBBc)

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on February 09, 2017, 02:05:24 AM
Re Gotoluc measurements:
work = force x distance
I would like  Gotoluc to measure force for each segment of his input
and output dials, and multiply this force by the length of the segment.
Then add them together for the input and output.
This will give us input and output work.
The more segments he has, the more precise would be the calculations.
In fact, he already has everything in place, just needs to do the above
operations.
Regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 09, 2017, 08:01:34 PM
Useful topic, pitty I surf this page without a pdf reader, so I gotta frequently transfer stuff to my old win rig and read it there. A Gif or Png here and there would however not hurt me ^^


When it comes to magnetism, you have to forget all the theories about it, look at your own observations and then start thinking logically.


For instance, the fact that unequal poles link and jetstream in polar axis direction, while equal poles build a barrier at the equilibrium, that is flat like when you press your nose against a glass window and therefor 90 deg "off", compared to the jetstream of eg. N-S, that alone is remarkable.


Theoreticly, you could place two magnets N vs N, a half inch apart, Now take third magnet, position its South between them, right in the middle, like the columbus egg, attracted by both sides the same. By wiggling the third magnet side to side, you maybe can alternate the competitive fluxpaths (3 identic magnets) with little force. Just an idea that went trough my head atm, didn't mean to become off topic.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 11, 2017, 01:31:32 AM
@dieter

              I read your above post some days ago, just didn't get around to
responding.

You are not off topic at all in your post.

This topic is for basic physics (mechanics) discussion, especially as it
applies to magnets....  measuring and understanding .... force, displacement,
work and energy.   Your comments were appreciated.

  regards
        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 11, 2017, 02:44:01 AM
Thanks, Floor!


In one of my brighter moments I recently had a sudden vision the quantummechanical characteristics in magnetism and electricity, that led to the formulation of my theory, which goes beyond currently accepted teachings. I posted it already in an other thread, but would like to repost it here, since it fits the topic so well.


The ambient magnetic field of random equilibrium.
By Dieter Marfurt


Electrons can only move in the conductor if they align their natural spin to the shortest way between the potential diffrence. Thus their normally random spins accummulate. Their spin however produces a gyroscopic force yet to be named, that forces magnetic domains in the molecural/cristalline lattice  into a 90 degree angle. Once the domains are aligned, the "magnetism" will use these domeins like a highway. The Domains are not the magnet, they only rectify the magnetic force that is everywhere, but in a random xyz equilibrium.some materials can keep the domain orientation even after the current stops flowing, and become permanent magnets.[/size]On the other hand, exposing randomly spinning electrons to a magnetic field forces them to spin like a screw until they are out of reach. As free electrons are not really free, but elasticly connected to their original location, they will spin back when the magnetic field is decreasing. Electrons can be rilped off of that elastic connection, causing charge/electron holes, as in semiconductors, at the cost of high energy losses, which is why Tesla's AC won over Edisons DC, because in DC the losses increase tremendously over distance, where in AC electrons rarely lose their connection to their beloved equilubrium condo and basicly just bounce back and forth at a "rubberband".[/size]
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 11, 2017, 03:51:59 AM
Now, how do we make magnets?


By electricity, maybe like my theory says.


Secondly, we can permanently magnetize hard steel with a permanent magnet. So a magnet can make an other magnet. Does the first magnet getting used up or weaker? No, and that is the beauty of it! Forcing magnetic domains in a iron cristal lattice into alignement doesn't require energy in the conventional sense! This can only mean that the ambient magnetic equilibrium is excess energy by its own! Capable of creating further magnets, within the regime of known permeability.


If we can magnetize without energy loss then there is a high probability that we can also demagnetize without energy loss.


So these are the two commonly known methods of making permanent magnets. But there are more ways!


Take a brandnew hammer and a brandnew hardened steel screwdriver. Hold the screwdriver towards a stone ground and hit the hammer heavily on the Screwdriver's handle. You'll notice the tip will become permanently magnetized, so you can lift a nail with it. Due to gravity shockwaves!


You see we got already 3 ways to make a magnetic field and or a PM.


I think it is only a matter of decades, until we discover further ways to achieve this goal, more elegant ways, in which the energy costs are in now way related to the field strength achieved.


Some will argue that it is not true that we do not lose energy when magnetizing by a DC current. But the losses are in fact only the product of the secondary magnetic field, that, by its own, was created without energy as well, it just happens that the secondary field in conventional induction causes the electrons in the conductor to spin the opposite way, thus braking the rotation caused by the potential diffrence and effectively increase the DC rwsistance in the conductor.


Making magnets with DC currents is messy business, like slicing butter with a chainsaw.


So it may be a very important field in science to find new ways of magnetization.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 11, 2017, 04:31:24 AM
@deiter

        I think maybe your theory has some valid elements to it. I don't
have a better one.

      but in contemplating the magnetic field I come up with this model.

A simple mobius strip has only a single 1/2 twist in the ribbon....but also a mobius strip
can have many twists rather than just a 1/2 twist.   

The edges of a twisted ribbon have the form of a double helix.

The forces (torque and tension) are said to tend to seek their most relaxed state at all
points.  but this does not result in an even distribution of twist along the length of the ribbon
within a mobius strip.
             but rather
In the "natural form" of a multi twist mobius strip we find that most of the tight twists lie together...
while also an other section of the strip which has very little twist lies all together (no tight twisting spots to break it up).

              bloch wall
If we look at the field of a permanent magnet, and at an individual  line of force (an idealized
simplification) as having the form of a mobius strip  ...  and we place lines between the two helixs
(like the ladder rung like connections in the DNA molecule)  .... and we assign a N/S magnetic
polarity to these "rungs" like pole next to like pole ...  (all N poles connected to one helix
and all south poles connected to the other helix).  Note... that this does not necessarily result in
like pole in close proximity to each other.  Also consider that there would be other twisted ribbons
all  around in the over all field.

Where the double helix is tightly wound we will find an absence of NET magnetic force, because
N and S forces are in a near balance in any direction from we approach the double helix...except
as we approach it nearly straight on to the end of that double helix.

We have next, then to look at what Theoria Apophasis has termed the dielectric inertial plane
/counter part to the bloch wall.... in the part of the magnetic field which is exterior to the
[permanent magnet.  Lowest density in the field ... largest area.

Also we must again consider multiple force lines ... a gentle spiraling and... spiral ribbon layers
within layers  (shells) .... and also more than one ribbon sharing a single "shell".

I don't know if this model of mine gives you any ideas,  but I hope it may/

        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 11, 2017, 04:36:22 AM
As a Sidenote: I just said the seconary field of induction increases the DC resistance in the conductor and that causes energy loss... not very logical at first glance, right? But if you force the device to maintain the current flow at the same level, regardless of higher resistance, then it makes sense and we understand how energy gets lost.


Anyhow, in any AC operation you also have to deal with the phase shift, but that may lead us to far away from the topic.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 11, 2017, 05:22:55 AM
Very interesting, Floor. Very close to my own interpretation. And good you are focussing on the magnet side, I tend to drift into electrical stuff.


At the nexus of my magnet force rectifier, the bloch wall, may be a focus in which as you said, polarities are so dense that due to molecular scale forces practically equalize.


But is there a particle, the magnetron? That is ejected out of the pole with a slingshot accelleration? But why does it return to the other pole? May there be a particle-pair fission and entanglement? One particle is shot out one side, the other one the other side? As they lose monentum, and repelled by like particles around them, the build the mushroom field, with one goal: to reunite with their entangled brother particle? Maybe.


If there is a helix pattern in the magnetic mechanics, then it must cause a gyroscopic force. That would explain, why electrons interlock with magnetic fields and are forced into rotation... at 90 degree angle...! Wow Floor I think you just put in the missing puzzle piece in my theory. Thanks! We should share that freakin nobel prize I'd say :)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 11, 2017, 05:55:04 AM
Hmm, there is also a further, easier explanation (sorry, on electrons again):


Electrons have a south and north pole, like our planet. Not surprising then, when they align to a magnetic field. But, according to my theory, due to their natural spinning, I call it screw-like, you'd probably say helix-guided, they then propagate in the conductor.


But ok, back to magnetism.


I think the perfect magnetic gate were, if you could sneak your rotor magnet into the bloch wall of the stator magnet and then give it a slight push so it will be repelled. But would that be possible? Just, very basic mechanical challenge? I lean towards Yes. Maybe we could use quantum tunnelling to transfer electrons into the bloch wall, would that be cool? Ok, we'd need the CERN to do the first testrun and maybe a Megawatt. But particle tunneling is real. We can Scotty-like beam particles, jumping like one inch in zero time. And the magnet would shoot out the electron or other particle.


Well just one way to sneak into the bloch wall.


A practical application of the theories is always the thing that's driving me.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 11, 2017, 07:52:55 AM
The DNA helix is a good analogy. If this twisted helix
Leaves one pole and twists around towards the other
The chain of N moving one way, the chain of S moving
The other way
But lots and lots of these that accumulate to the large field
They lock together when you have multiple magnets
And you can bend them, build up pressure, and let them
Explode.
You can even stick the magnets together in a certain way
So they are always under pressure. And adding just one
More magnet, say from a passing rotor or cart,
Can cause them to explode. Magnetically speaking.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 12, 2017, 04:39:33 PM
Interesting position as well, Smoky.


About measurements, one common measurement error is this: people fully charge a Cap, then use it for a brief moment, then calculate the energy consumed by looking at the caps voltage drop, then they say like:
only 0.1V drop from 100.1 to 100.0 vdc, that equals (assuming a 1 farad cap):
1 * ((0.1 * 0.1) /2) = 0.005 joule
But that is totally wrong. What you need to calculate is:
(1*((100.1*100.1)/2)) - (1*((100*100)/2)), equals 10.005 joule.
It makes a huge diffrence whether you drop 0.1v at 100v, or at 1v.
I add this here because this cap measurement method is often used in conjunction with magnetic devices.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 13, 2017, 09:26:06 PM
Hi smOKY 2

QUOTE FROM smOKy 2

"The DNA helix is a good analogy. If this twisted helix
Leaves one pole and twists around towards the other
The chain of N moving one way, the chain of S moving
The other way  "  END QUOTE

Leaves the interior of the permanent magnet via the poles ....
                    yes

Qutoe
"But lots and lots of these that accumulate to the large field"
END QUOTE

           yes and probably in a very structured or organized manner

QUOITE
"They lock together when you have multiple magnets"
END QUOTE
                  yes two or more magnets
QUOTE
"And you can bend them, build up pressure, '
END QUOTE
                             yes we can bend the "lines of flux"
                             and also change their density.

QUOTE
"and let them Explode."
END QUOTE
               don't know what this means


QUOTE
"You can even stick the magnets together in a certain way
So they are always under pressure. And adding just one
More magnet, say from a passing rotor or cart,
Can cause them to explode. Magnetically speaking."
END QUOTE
                 I don't understand what you are saying here either.

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 13, 2017, 09:29:57 PM
@dieter


  no worries... your not off topic.... especially when you return to how
                   it relates to the magnetic component
         
  Nice
           thanks and appreciateion for your perspectives.
             
 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 15, 2017, 04:31:26 AM
Thanks, Floor.


Another interesting observation I wasn't aware of, that I saw in a FEMM simulation, is, assuming FEMM is correct, when you place an iron shield in front of your magnet, the maximum field density that was at the Bloch wall has moved right into the iron bar, which is practicly stealing the field density from the PM.


If you place two PMs N vs S with a gap and in rhe gap the end of an iron bar, in 90deg angle, that' a bit thinner than the gap, both PMs will try to link with the ironbar, but one will eventually win. Depending on which one, the polarity of the iron bar will be swapped. And according to FEMM the iron bar will hold the highest field density.


Now consider we have a setup in which the gap is only 1mm... what enormous field density we have in there, and by moving the iron bar, or rigid sheet by only 0.5mm, well have complete polarity reversal in the iron bar. Although this requires the iron bar contact area to be saturated by one magnet.


Hmm, I got to test this in FEMM.


Yet another interesting observation: two PMs, N vs S, can use the Bloch wall of a third magnet to link their flux, in 90deg to the third magnet. I have no idea why the magnetic domains at the Bloch wall don't react to these forces.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 16, 2017, 09:54:09 PM
@Floor


Ok so you take a large magnet and a 2 small magnets
Put a small one forced opposite to the large
And glue or tape it there so it doesn't fly away
You may have to leave a little gap to get it just right
Depends on the two different magnets
Now when you approach this arrangement with the
Remaining small magnet, there are 3 field encounters
1) the small magnets field
2) the large magnets field
3) the cumulative field formed by the two occupying the
     same space.


By changing their physical orientation you can control how
The two individual fields affect the cumulative field, in such a
way that the warping caused by the approaching small magnet
Causes the cumulative field to change drastically.
This drastic change is like a spring releasing, because the two
magnets (or more) are forced to sit in a way that the cumulative
field is right on the edge of the drastic change. Just a tiny bit more
forcing and the cumulative field reorients itself.


By "explosion" I analogize the effect of a magnetic field change to
the order of tens to thousands of times.
Much more than the required forcing that caused the change.
When the smaller magnet is pulled out (or allowed to repel out)
The cumulative field reverts back to its "springy" state before you
caused the change.


Magnetically speaking, it explodes. (and resets)
The cumulative field will always morph to the gradient
of least resistance.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 16, 2017, 10:00:06 PM
@Dieter


If by "Bloch wall" you mean the neutral line in the 'center'
The dielectric inertial plane contains no net magnetism.
Although all of the flux passes through this region,
the very center has a uniform distribution of density
Thus there are (within a range or band) an equal and opposite
N & S within this region that cancel each other out completely



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 17, 2017, 12:10:46 AM
@smOKY2

Thanks much for the expantion.
          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 17, 2017, 01:56:52 AM
@ Smoky,


what I don't get is why does no flux linking occur?
Normally you would expect any field lines to bend and link to a close unlike pole, so one part of the Bloch wall inhabitants should bend to one external pole, the other part to the other pole.


Intrestingly, that may happen nevertheless, because when you do this with only one expernal magnet then aztracting and repelling forces do cancel eachother out, agreed. But if you use two, eg. a North to the right end of the Bloch wall and a South to the left side, then they stick at the bloch wall.


Even tho, FEMM shows fieldlines, passing right along the bloch wall, It seems more likely to me that the bloch wall itself links to the two poles.
I've noticed these two magnets stick at a lightly offset position, one a bit closer to PM1's North, the other one closer to south.


Here I have some interesting simulation shots that show how you can focus a magnetic field and achieve very high fieldstrengths, simply with an iron core of the right shape.


Notice ontop of this Neo magnet sticks a cylinder of Supermalloy, or pure iron of the same diameter. It's fieldstrength at any place barely reaches that of the permanent magnet, about 1 Tesla.


In the second shot there is a thin iron bar, close to the other end of the PM. Notice the fieldstrength of this bar, that reaches 2 Tesla.


And in the third shot there is still about 1.7 Tesla, despite a rather large airgap.


So shape does matter extremly.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 17, 2017, 07:59:43 PM
@dieter / SmOKY2

On page five of topic below is an    interesting / easy    Mobius strip experiment / explanation.

http://overunity.com/13783/proof-of-overunity-from-magnets-fixture-no-negative-work-aspect-lafonte/msg370730/#msg370730

Addendum.. 

                       ? : If it is neutral to other field lines, why doesn't a given field line just drift away into space ?
          Answer ? : Because it is not neutral... to the randomly polarized atoms in the magnet ?

         field actions (within / around) are not simply between like and un like poles...there is a third element involved
        (other than the electric)    It is the FIELD of the randomly polarized.

       ? If there are interactions between the either / vacuum and organized energy / matter...I seems to me
       that the INTERFACE between these two kinds of (energy ?) occurs through random ness in the
       ordinary / perceivable energy (our world).

I  look at it like this..... that magnet "shape" and the direction of approach between two magnets are both
"a kind of shape".     The one is fixed a constant (for the now)..... the other is a variable.
............................................................................................
I / we.... all  use the language but...

While I consider field lines a valuable and useful convention.... also I don't think of them as real world.....
Like this....

 A peice of lumber that is 2 inches by 4 inches by 48 inches long ....is not actually composed of
some things which we call inches and feet. 

Similarly...I don't hink of that region we call a magnetic field as being a thing, but rather it is a mathematical
construct....  A description of a three dimensional volume in space.. in which events can be measured / compared
in relation to their placement within this drawn 3 dimensions "field".

                              regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on February 17, 2017, 08:16:58 PM
Of course I totally agree, "field lines" are just useful to display density and orientation within this magnetic shape of gradient vector force. They are simple short terms and I guess you understand what I mean by them.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 17, 2017, 09:17:18 PM
Kind of relating back your DNA analogy
I look at the "field lines" as being a manifestation
Or reflection of individual magnetic field paths
From pole to pole, consisting of a helical construct
Containing oppositely transitioning N and S pole
Flux packets.


Which are, yes, ultimately propagated by individual atoms.
You bring up an interesting point with the 'randomness'
It is important to realize that, as best we try, not all of the
Atoms in our magnetic material are "magnetized" or polarized
In the desired vector. But rather a majority, that causes the
Cumulative field to orient in the desired vector.
By applying magnetic pressure to points along the field
Like from another magnet- you can change the shape of the field
Which is observable as a change in the pathways visible in
the field lines.


Some magneticians use the sense of touch to feel the shape and
intensity. Some use magnetic viewers of various sorts.
The FEMM simulation software generally mimics these patterns.
There is only one person on earth who can really see the field.
He tries to teach us as best he can, the FEMM people could
learn a thing or two about how to upgrade their software.


Until then, "lines" give us a pretty good view of the macro events.
So it usually works.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 18, 2017, 01:05:15 AM
@smOkY2  / Dieter

     I try to make sure that I restate this every now and again...

I am not an expert in magnets nor physics.

     But learning more all the time.
.........................................................
 I have no objections to using a language in common, just don't
want to get trapped in the words is all.

                        regards
                          regards
                            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 18, 2017, 06:23:03 AM
In the essential sense, they are lines. But braided/twisted/helix lines
And very very tiny. We cannot really see them. We see an effect caused by
A multitude of them.  The more complex our viewers, the more "lines" we see.
When we get really good at making viewers, we start to see the real shape and form
that these lines make as they wrap through the field.


https://youtu.be/c-CbKHbH5QA (https://youtu.be/c-CbKHbH5QA)


And this
https://youtu.be/s9AU6IQE1uk (https://youtu.be/s9AU6IQE1uk)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 19, 2017, 04:53:48 PM

The word flux has as one of its meanings ...................."change".
In that context it wouldn't make sense to say ..........."a change in the flux"
                                     or                    ........................"a change in the change" either.

In the context ... directly of magnet fields... there are in general .... several kinds of usage for
the word line. 

1. a line drawn to show a vector direction

2. the number of lines ASSIGNED to specific field density.  (arbitrarily agreed to)
                   (these are the standard which we call "field lines)

3. lines seen when iron filings are sprinkled over a paper covering a magnet.
                   (caused by the polar alignments of the iron pieces their selves) 
                                          (these are not the "field lines" per say)

4. A single line supposed (at least by me), to be helical..... and yes very very tiny indeed.
composed of (some how linked... photons / particle waves)
         (The photon is held by scientific convention to be the intermediary of all electromagnetic events)

5. These helical, photonic, lines, twisting together and taking the form of a....
larger though over all.... less tightly coiled helix ...

These can be can be large enough...to be visible to the human eye (but are not actually visible).

6. regions of low density lines (linear holes) (projections the effects of / from the Bloch walls....not real lines per say)
between the high density compoundly helical photonic structures (lines)

Groups of two kinds of lines (5 and 6)  forming both, higher density (lines) and lower density (holes)
regions in the field...and their effect upon light....is seen in the devices presented in Tehoria's demonstrations.
....................................................
A demonstration of a compoundly helical form.

1. Clamp one end a long (round in cross section) shoe string into a bench vice.
2. twist /spin the free end of the string, by rolling it between the palms of your hands.
The string will (after some amount of twisting) begin to "kink".
3. Do not allow the string to unwind.  Hold the free end between two fingers.
4. With your free hand, pinch /grasp the twisted string between to fingers, (at its middle)
then bring  the free end of the string over to its other end (which is clamped in the vice).
5. Release the middle of the string from your grasp (only the middle).
6 Prevent the ends from untwisting as you remove the one end from the bench vice.

You should now have two helices twisted together.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 19, 2017, 10:02:28 PM
@Dieter
................................
Inside the body of an iron magnet there are three, below, considered, regions.

1. the magnetic polar randomly aligned iron atoms.
2. the magnetic polar aligned iron atoms (magnetic domains)
3. the block walls

The Bloch walls interact with both the random polar elements, and the polar atomic
/ domain elements, but differently with each.

The Bloch wall shields one domain from another in a manner similar to the actions
in pass through TD designs.   Not as a kind of shielding which would simply block the
passage of a magnetic energy flow.  Rather the Bloch wall has polarities distributed
around its circumference, which by the closeness of their proximity to one another,
tend to simultaneously present both attractions and repulsion in near balance) to either
a north or a south pole that approaches the Bloch wall.


The Bloch wall is both the atoms in it and the field it presents.

The polar arrangement of the atoms in a Bloch wall is a helix.

The field around its circumference would not be helical, but more like
a cross hatch (a tick tac toe) complex.

The Bloch walls exist only on the inside of the magnet, their effects extend to out side of
the magnet.

The Bloch wall has no photon "emissions" from its ends which would leave the magnet.
But the wall may effect the external magnetic field  (creates a hole in it).

(

Although I previously stated (in error) that the ends of a Bloch wall (both a N and S
pole is there) reacts magnetically with the exterior elements.  It should have said.... the end is
self sealing / forms a closed magnetic loop.

 Rather it is the helical lines in the field from the domains which readily interact at their ends.
.............................................................
The atom in domains are polar aligned end to end N/S N/S N/S........
The domains are also polar aligned end to end N/S N/S N/S........

The photon "emissions" from domains / magnets, which cause magnetic attraction / repulsion force
are helical.
......................................
All three regions have electric charge interactions (ionic or covalant bonding)
the "chemical". 

And again ...............this is just my take on a model.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 19, 2017, 10:21:45 PM
@Dieter

In regar to compression within the magnetic field...

https://youtu.be/kbDo-40LTkk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbDo-40LTkk

There are lots and lost of related videos.

              floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 19, 2017, 10:53:26 PM
@Dieter

Quote from Dieter

"Yet another interesting observation: two PMs, N vs S, can use the Bloch wall of a third magnet to link their flux, in 90deg to the third magnet. I have no idea why the magnetic domains at the Bloch wall don't react to these forces." 

end quote
..............................................
paraphrased quote....

Two PMs, N vs S, can use a third magnet as a  Bloch wall.

end paraphrased quote
..............................................
They do react.  The net force is zero, because attractions and repulsions are in balance.

They do "react" but  in a magnetic loop ....while exerting little or no external force,
along specific force vectors.....

while also exerting great force in some other force vectors...

but if properly physically restrained.... can not do work / expend energy along those
" some other vectors"....

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 08, 2017, 11:22:39 PM
@ all readers

This latest addition to the magnets motion and measurements project,
is a detailed explanation of how to calculate the work done by a force that is
changing with distance.  (like a magnetic force).


Please find the attached file   "MagnetForceIntegration 2.PDF"

     best wishes
             floor


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on March 10, 2017, 02:23:32 AM
Thanks Floor, downloaded, will read later.


A little thought of mine, that I'd like to share with you just here:


Simple proof for PMs being able to provide overunity:


Take a PM, lay it down on a table, then lay on it a coreless coil, such as a pancake. Now give a brief DC pulse of an exact amount of energy to the coil, so it will be repelled from the PM and jump up a certain height, which you will measure precisely.


Now take a much bigger, stronger PM to replace the one on the table. Do the exact same test again with the coil. The coil jumps higher! Where does the additional energy come from? From the PM! Got any other explanation? Hehe, thought so.


Total repulsion force is that of the coil and that of the PM. Only the PM is virtually inexhaustible.


Based on that thought, we should be able to increase torque solely by adding more PM strength.


Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 10, 2017, 04:55:29 PM
@ All readers

new video.
It shows an effective magnet shield in action.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eg7kk_magnetshield-1_tech

As far as I'm concerned, this is all open source and public domain.
All in common...that's the only real over unity there is. 

     Thanks for all of your good input dieter

                 Peace... Out
                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on March 10, 2017, 07:02:14 PM
Very interesting, Floor. Did you injure your thumb between them magnets? :)


Now as usual, only measurements will tell whether there is any real gain. Which I hope very much.


Maybe you need to do the rasterization of push/pull force at any millimeter of both, shield motion and repulsion of both stacks.


But I take it you mean it when you say it's "very easy" to remove the shield.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 12, 2017, 01:14:21 AM
 @Dieter

A magnet in close proximity to the coil changes the characteristics
of the coil.  The inductance (reluctance at the start of current flow) and
(reactive voltage spike, once  the voltage is turned off)  are both changed. 

It's difficult to demonstrate that precisely the same amount of electrical power
would be transferred in each of the two scenarios.

There are years of argument on the forum over this subject.

This is why I stick to force and displacement by magnets.

These basics physical properties and their measurement can not be disputed  ....
at least not REASONABLY.

          The thumb is doing fine.
              regards
                      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: dieter on March 15, 2017, 12:21:28 AM
@Floor, of course, the all PM drive is the Holy Grail of free energy. But I am so desperste, I take everything that brings me closer to the aim.


Collapsing field can be useful, if the coil is turned off right when the magnet passes it eg.: attract by DC pulse, then repell by collapsing fields Back MMF.


Or the Back MMF of collapsing field can be suppressed by a diode.


There is a Lenz drag, but it is a secondary (=weaker) field, opposing not the input power, but the PM, and this only partially.


Whatever science says, never forget: Mankind is stupid and perfectly capable of missing fundamental basics.


Also when it comes to PMs, so it is really the attitude that makes us progressive, inspired or resigning. We crashed on the planet of the apes and we were just told by the ape leaders that "Magnetism" is delusional nonexisting nonsense...


Despite their fancy parade uniforms, I tend to question the truth in every word, coming from those leaders. Because they shaped this world.


Ahh, I' babbling ^^


You know I never lost hope. I may do some alternating hobby activities, so I don't slip into a manic free energy fixation (just because that's not enjoyable), but I never gave up hope. Because hope dies last.


kr
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 18, 2017, 12:22:40 AM
@Dieter

I'm not done yet either.

I'll put together / refine the next section  of the
magnets motion and measurements book (this topic).
That next section will begin with constant force over distance,
and integration of a force changing with distance explanations.
.........................
Then I'll do a presentation of a measurement set of the magnetic force shield,
(in that topic) and also in the (all magnet motor TD based topic).

                regards
                      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 12, 2017, 10:20:20 PM
@All readers

          Here is my most recent revision of part one of the
                  "Magnets motion and measurement"   book.

It is still undergoing revisions and corrections.  The most recent
changes begin at the last section of page 43, and continue through
page 45's upper part.  That new / corrected material gives an explanation of
and breadown down of,  the formula Ek = 1/2 mass x velocity^2.

This is a work in progress.

Corrections to and inputs to the pjoject are welcomed.
Thanks again, to those who have allready contributed.

I now consider part one as complete.

Part 2 is in the works.

                       Please find the attached file "MeasPhy(10-T).pdf file.

                regards
                          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 16, 2017, 09:43:01 PM
Thanks guys for the proof reads...

please find the    most recent ..... attached  "MeasPhy(10-T-b).pdf" file

   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 21, 2017, 07:05:17 PM
Please find the most recent version of part 1 of the "MeasPhy(10-U).pdf" book

As per usual please discard previous versions.

          regards
                   floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 25, 2017, 03:28:17 PM
I'm going to begin posting part 2 of this project.

Below is the final PDF draft of part 1... MeasPhy(10-V).PDF

    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 21, 2017, 07:36:24 PM
This is the latest draft of the Magnets, Motion and Measurement book

                           version "MeasPhy(10-v). pdf" .....  date  (6-21-17)  Part 1

It has only minor revisions, from the last version. 

I have not found any serious errors in the previous version.(10-7-b).pdf.

                                                 BUT

I have made some minor, but worthwhile improvements / clarifications to a few parts of it.

I am working on part 2, and will present it in pieces, as it progresses. 

Part two will begin with "Magnet Force Measurement, Some Methods and Math".

Please discard all previous version of the the project and please do not redistribute it,
as this is still a work in progress.

                      best wishes
                                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: boogyboy1998 on October 23, 2017, 08:00:58 AM
a switch can actually produce electromagnetic interaction. some switch can produce this interaction and cause a great effect in different types of equipment. Like for example, water generator can be used with switched as is may function accordingly to the switch being placed on the generator. This switch https://www.abestmeter.com/thermal-flow-switch/ (https://www.abestmeter.com/thermal-flow-switch/) Digital Thermal Flow Switch can actually produce electromagnetic interaction inside the generator and in the water as well.
 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 25, 2017, 03:25:04 PM
@Boogyboy

Is this the wrong topic you have posted on ?

   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 25, 2017, 03:28:47 PM
Please find the attached file

"MeasPhy(10-w). pdf" .....  date  (10-25-17)  Part 1

                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2017, 08:26:06 PM
         Please find below...
       
              1 PDF file

       the first draft of part 2 of the

   "Magnets Motion and Measurement"  book

   These are first drafts.... please do not redistribute them.

         Feed back / corrections to the project are welcome
         Thanks also...   to those who helped edit/improve part 1
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 03, 2017, 10:21:53 PM
Here is the next piece of  "part 2"  of the "magnets motion and measurement" book.

Please find below.... the attached, inverse Square PDF, file.

As per usual... please do not redistribute the materials, as they are still works in progress.

          best wishes
                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 06, 2017, 03:06:25 AM
I try to make these statements on my topics occasionally.

I am not a expert on these subjects.

Polite, but also preferably direct and straight to the point correction are welcomed.
No guessing games please.

These projects are drafts, please do not redistribute them

Please find the attached "MeasPhy(10-y).pdf

                          best wishes
                                      floor
                                           
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 10, 2017, 06:51:38 PM
This is my last version of part one of the "
magnets Motionand Measurement"
                     book.

I not going to make any further revisions to this "the part 1". 
I am for the present satisfied with all of the corrections of my
wonderful mistakes and missunderstandings (in these contexts).

Anyone may (if they find these explanations satifactory)
redistribute those pages.

Please find the attached file



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: LabDeSyn on December 13, 2017, 05:39:12 PM
It is a pleasure to share my latest project where magnets, motion and measurement are coming together
in a DIY project. The Donut Motor is powered by a 3V lithium cell with a 235 mAh capacity.
The pulse motor runs for 2 years on a single coin cell with a current of 13 uA. It is great to enter my
lab and see this motor running day after day. The investigation is going on to get the current as low I can.
Here is the video of the project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHUPlm5yQ3U

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 13, 2017, 09:08:16 PM

What is it, that you hope to demonstrate with your motor project ?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: LabDeSyn on December 13, 2017, 09:59:41 PM
@Floor, I was hoping the video gives that answer in a practical way. Reading your opening of this thread and your definition of the topic, I anticipate with an apparatus where energy, work, force, power and the methods of their measurement can be in discussion. It is easy to stay in abstractions. I learned a lot about magnets and their interactions by building this pulse motor.
I hope you, and more people at this forum, start building the Donut motor. Maybe we come to a point that conventional scientific descriptions cannot explain the behavior, why this machine, in the near future, can run without any explainable input. That is in short what I hope to demonstrate with my motor project. Any reaction at this project from your side is welcome.


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 15, 2017, 09:04:12 PM
@LabDeSyn

I would prefer it if you will start a seperate topic which is for your Doughnut motor.

In a very general way, almost any thing can be considered in a context of m m and m.

And while a pulse motor is surly more so conected to this topic than... say electro chemistry or
magnetic recording tape, it still remains as essentially off topic.

    best wishes with your project
                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 15, 2017, 09:16:26 PM
Addendum

Measurement of electrical power,  electric motor power consumption,
the complexities of electric wave forms (pulsed or other wise) are beyond
and out side of the scope of this topic.

Investigations as complex as those, can be found in very many of the other topics on this forum.

This topic is under the heading of "mechanical"

Again, please start a topic specific to your project if you wish input / interaction in those
more complex areas.
                               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 15, 2017, 09:18:03 PM
@All readers

     To my mind the purpose of philosophy, is that the individual practitioner shall arrive at .....  understanding the limitations of reason.
     Even at the very beginnings of the undertaking to scientifically examine this world,
we find  implications of an infinity and an eternity all around us, and that we are not truly separate from that eternity.

                            Centuries ago, Galileo pondered action at distance.   
.................................................................................................
                                                Speaking only for myself
     Newton's laws of motion have always seemed incomplete, incorrect, contradictory or simply not possible .... though useful.
...
     Within the texts of the Magnets Motion and Measurement book, part 1,  I make the following statement as well as other paraphrasing / similar statements.

     "An object at rest does not begin to move at some given speed. That object must accelerate in order to reach a given speed."
...
     An object at rest, when it at first begins to accelerate,  must begin to move at SOME speed.

                   If it at first begins to move,  what is that speed at which it first moves ?

                                      Does it accelerate in order to reach that speed ?

                      That speed,  must be greater than zero, if it is any speed at all.

     Can it begin to move at some speed, any speed, even if that speed is infinitely near to zero
with out having accelerated from some other lesser speed ?
     Does an accelerating object at first begin to move at some infinitesimally small speed within
some infinitesimally small amount of time, and does it reach that speed absolutely instantaneously and without acceleration ?

                            Do objects begin their accelerations via quantum leaps ?
...
           Even physic's most exotic "particles", are I think, more common even than dirt.

Is it   or    is it not fact  that ....
the ordinary objects around us are constantly transcending time and space at the sub atomic particle level ?

Is it or is it not a fact that ....
the basis for all events which we observe and from which we take the experiences ,  by which define our own selves, are some how transcendent of time even though in that transcendence, they are the very basis for time ?
...
                                        Peace on Earth good will toward men
                                                                             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 16, 2017, 02:44:35 AM
Is it possible to have an object that is ‘not’ in motion?


Everything we mere humans have observed, is in motion.


Where would we put it, that it would not then be accelerated?


If we did put this “motionless object” somewhere,
Would not that very space be in motion?

This is not considering our own relative motion
(Which could very well be hundreds of thousands of mph)


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 16, 2017, 11:42:56 PM
Hi Sm0ky2

If one is completely stopped....

while the rest of the universe is a linear motion,
it seem then, the universe both approaches, and speeds away some unknown speed.

May be 1/C2 ,  If light speed is the absolute maximum.

If the rest of the universe is in a rotational motion, the closer one is to its center,
the slower any thing nearby is moving.
................................................
But in terms of.....
Picturing an acceleration within a local inertial reference frame....

An object which begins to move from a state of rest, must BEGIN to move at SOME speed.
And it seems to me that, THAT speed must be accelerated to,  absolutely instantaneously, even if
THAT speed is a very slow one.

This (from my perspective) is one reason, why newtons laws remain as only approximations.
Valid in the macro world, and at RELATIVE speeds.... which are much less than the speed of light.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 16, 2017, 11:56:35 PM
The point I was trying to make, is that regardless of our inertial frame
of reference or the relative perspective we view the object from,
It cannot be motionless, by any universal absolute.


Therefore, we must be accelerating the object from some unknown speed
(referenced as 0 only to us), up to some other unknown speed.
(Which we reference as 0+#)


The rate of acceleration is clearly defined.
And not instantaneous.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 26, 2017, 05:30:18 PM
@Smoky2

Interesting points you make.

Yes, we don't know of any thing which can be defined as "motionless, by any universal absolute".
                             however
I cannot say either, that it can    or      "It cannot be motionless, by any universal absolute."
                                but
I doesn't matter, which context ..... "universal"       or      within a local reference frame.
It doesn't matter, which context ......  an absolute / universal speed of zero  or a relative speed of zero
                             The essence of my statements remain unchanged.

It doesn't even matter,  If I had context-ed the acceleration as beginning from some initial value (X),
while within some specific frame of reference............. rather than as (zero) while within some specific frame of reference.
                             The essence of my statements remain unchanged.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 11, 2018, 12:49:16 AM
I spent a little more time on the Magnets Motion and Measurement book (part 1)
and did some clean up and  rearranging.

Please find the attached file below.

             best wishes 
                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 11, 2018, 01:14:15 AM
PLEASE DO NOT DOWNLOAD THE FILE ABOVE

My apologies for having uploaded the wrong file above.  Please do not
bother to download it.  It was mislabeled and is not the latest revision.

Please find instead the latest version below

                 regards
                      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 21, 2018, 07:10:37 PM
I did some more restructureing, clean up, and one minor addition ... to
the  Magnets Motion and Measurement part 1-3.

  Please find the attached Magnets Motion and Measurement part 1-4

The last version was pretty sound, but this version is improved.

    Thanks for your interest. I hope it will serve well.
               best wishes
                        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 12, 2018, 03:18:32 PM

Except for some uncertainties I have about the math processes  ... I feel pretty satisfied with these last
editions.   I have access to a Berkeley mathematics (PHD) (for a fee would check my work)
I would rather keep it in house and for free ... if there is a someone, who would enjoy checking my work for free (doesn't require a PHD).

     Please find the attached  file   "Magnets Motion and Measurement part 1  -  5

This version doesn't significantly differ from the last two.
 
                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 09, 2018, 03:55:28 PM
Minor additions to the last version
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 19, 2018, 09:03:33 PM
The next part of the "Magnets Motion and Measurement" book

Titled "diminishing return"

             best wishes
                       floo
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2018, 11:01:47 PM
The next parts of the Magnets Motion and Measurement book  still part 1
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2018, 11:03:36 PM
more stuff
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2018, 11:04:52 PM
more again
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2018, 11:09:25 PM
more of more
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2018, 11:15:15 PM
Staring at the bottom of the previous page of this topic (page 5)

A lot of new parts to the Magnets Motion and Measurement book besides what is on this page.

All as attached PDF file

           regards
               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 22, 2018, 12:28:27 AM
One might be inclined to feel that a file titled "Magnet Basics" will be of no interest,
but then you might be surprised to (earlier post)

3 more files

         floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 22, 2018, 12:29:08 AM
next part
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 22, 2018, 12:30:24 AM
third of 3 part file

     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 24, 2018, 08:01:49 PM
@ All readers

What's in these PDF files ?
................................................
Simple and easy to understand drawings and explanations.
The how and why of magnets from basics to fairly complex.
................................................
A suggested order of reading

Magnets Motion and Measurement part 1-6-2.PDF
Magnetic force Measurement.PDF
ForceGraphing 2-2c.PDF
Diminishing Return 2-2b.PDF
InverseSquare 1bPn.PDF
InverseSquare 2G2Pn.PDF
MagnetBasicsCombined 1-5.PDF
Mirror Engine 4new 1, 2 and 3 PDF files
La fonte Pseudo Solid Motor V2 PDF
La Fonte Pseudo Solid Explained 7 PDF
................................................
Magnets Motion and Measurement part 1-6-2.PDF

Explains some basic physics and is written for people
interested in doing home experiments related to alternative energy.
In particular, it is written for those who have an interest in magnets
and their interactions.

                        TOPICS COVERED

ENERGY, INERTIAL FRAME OF REFERENCE, SPEED, VELOCITY, GRAVITY, FORCE,
ACCELERATION, THE FORCES OF ACCELERATION,  CONSTANT ACCELERATION,
ACCELERATION BY GRAVITY, INERTIA, MOMENTUM, MASS, WEIGHT, MASS V WEIGHT,
THE NEWTON, WORK, THE JOULE, ASPECT RATIO, TIME, POWER
................................................
Magnetic force Measurement.PDF

How to measure / determine the amount of energy in simple magnet interactions.
Calculating displacement and force inputs and outputs as energy.
................................................
ForceGraphing 2-2c.PDF

Examples of how to calculate the amount of energy in displacement and force
interactions.
................................................
Diminishing Return 2-2b.PDF

Intended to give the home experimenter some idea of how much precision to use
when measuring magnet interactions.
................................................
InverseSquare 1bPn.PDF
InverseSquare 2G2Pn.PDF

A fairly detailed explanation of what the inverse Square law is.

This applies to magnetic force decreasing as the distance from a magnet increases.
................................................
MagnetBasicsCombined 1-5.PDF

Explains magnetic domains, Bloch walls, certain other aspects of magnets which an
experimenter will find useful. Some little known magnet interactions, facts and
explanations. 
................................................
Mirror Engine 4new 1, 2 and 3 PDF files
An informative study of magnets interactions and Over Unity.
................................................
La Fonte Pseudo Solid Motor V2 PDF
A design as explained to me, by user GammaRayBurst at the OverUnity.com forum
To my knowledge, no one has to date, measured the work in to work out of this design.
................................................
La Fonte Pseudo Solid Explained 7 PDF
An interesting and illuminating set of designs, magnet interactions / principles
also as explained by user GammaRayBurst at the OverUnity.com forum.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 25, 2018, 09:00:44 PM
@ all readers

Please find the attached PDF files

Suggested order of reading


RightAngleSlide.PDF
MagneticForceNeutralizer 1.PDF
Rack action.PDF
ForceBalancingVariations.PDF
CombinedNeutralizedUnits.PDF
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 25, 2018, 09:03:19 PM
Two more of the files

      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on September 27, 2018, 01:02:16 AM
Sounds interesting, but have you tried doing the actual measurements ?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 27, 2018, 09:13:23 PM
@Telecom

QUOTE from Telecom
  "Sounds interesting, but have you tried doing the actual measurements ?"
END QUOTE
................. ............. .............. .........

What is it that you find "sounds interesting" about the presentations.

Have you ever presented a similar measurement process, here on the OU forum ?
             If so What measurements would you like to see ?
             If so will you describe for me, a precise set of measurement procedures which
             which would be adequate to hold your attention ?

What tolerances would you consider as adequate and why ?

 

@ All readers

About the PNG file immediately below ........

Don't read it if:
1. you're not in the mood for some deep thinking
2. you're at a location where it might be deemed as inappropriate
    if you are laughing out loud.


             and please
                   remember to share
                       
                                      floor



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 27, 2018, 09:28:10 PM
The file wouldn't upload
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on September 27, 2018, 11:55:15 PM
@Telecom

QUOTE from Telecom
  "Sounds interesting, but have you tried doing the actual measurements ?"
END QUOTE
................. ............. .............. .........

What is it that you find "sounds interesting" about the presentations.

Have you ever presented a similar measurement process, here on the OU forum ?
             If so What measurements would you like to see ?
             If so will you describe for me, a precise set of measurement procedures which
             which would be adequate to hold your attention ?

What tolerances would you consider as adequate and why ?

 

Floor

This is quite obvious, that the interesting part is the ability to turn off  magnetic attraction
(or repulsion) using above mentioned shields.
For example, magnets can produce tremendous output working in one direction, but require the same input to return them into the initial position.
If this input is illuminated using shields, than the problem is resolved.
The simplest would be to compare the effort of inserting and removing the shield with the
work produced by the attraction ( or repulsion).
Since you already have the apparatus in place, this shouldn't be that big of a task.
In order to provide the procedure, I would need to take a closer look at your setup
( but  by no means I consider myself a bigger expert than you in this field, or perhaps another member of this forum).
In terms of the tolerances, they should be within the reasonable precision of the
measuring instrument at hand - I hope that the difference between the input and output
can be easily detected.
Regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 28, 2018, 09:01:28 PM
@Telecom

I'm not an expert, just a learner.

The test bench is knocked down (its modular) pretty easy to set up though.
I'll need to  calibrate  and  level it.
I will also need to fill with water / calibrate my weight sets (bottles).
Before any of this I need to clear my work bench / shop   of other project remnants.

I don't have access to the triple beam balance I used to use, but I have a high precision, reliable, digital scales in its place.
 
The test bed does not have a cross sliding unit.  Consequently I can only do the measurements
by repositioning the magnet sets.  This works fine, just takes a little effort.... and labeling the magnets
so that the same magnets are in their original positions as shield,  stator and sliding magnets respectively.


I'll post once I'm set up.
                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on September 28, 2018, 09:37:56 PM
This looks very good, but ideally your shield magnets should be as thin as possible,
as you've mentioned in the video.
In addition, you can use a variable diameter cams to compensate for non
linear force distribution, I believe you wrote about this option before.
But this will take much more work.
Looking forward for the results.
Regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 08, 2018, 11:13:10 PM
@Telecom

Up date......

I have had house guests, am bogged down with some other tasks right now and hardly spending any time on line.

Please be patient, I have some other measurement sets that are also motivating me toward getting the test bench set back up.


   thanks for your inquiries / suggestions

                     I will respond  as soon as I have something to respond with.

                            regards
                                   flor
 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on October 09, 2018, 10:37:55 PM
Hi Floor,
not to worry,
I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes.
Regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 11, 2018, 10:23:22 PM
@Telecom

       Test bench is set up

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6v9zkz

           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on October 11, 2018, 11:33:34 PM
Both videos say :"explicit content, age restricted".
I wonder where the lower limit is - 65?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 12, 2018, 03:03:24 PM
Sorry I'll try it again
   

 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 12, 2018, 03:12:52 PM
Try this one ...its re named.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6vbmvo
my fault cliked the wrong button at daily motion.com I think  ?

           this one is also working now

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an   
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on October 13, 2018, 06:52:14 PM
Very interesting indeed.
So, in your second video both magnets are in the repulsion mode,
if I understood correctly.
Then, the work of 105 x 22 causes work of 120 x 40 to take place.
Which is basically double of the original effort.
This is puzzling, to say the least...
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 13, 2018, 09:43:41 PM
105 grams by 22 degrees equivalent of fall on the slideing weight

115 grams by 40 degrees of lifting of the rotateing weight.

   cyclically repeatable.

Of corse there coul be a lead weight under the cap of the SL bottle
or a hidden wire or an elctro magnet hidden in the floor or bench.

Some  kind of fakery or its real ?  The only way one can know for certain,
is to see it in person.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on October 15, 2018, 01:19:04 AM
Can you please describe magnets which you've used?
Have you tried different types of the magnets?
Thanks
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 15, 2018, 08:37:54 PM
They are commonly sold at hardware stores. see also ........

https://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg489791/#msg489791

Just in case you are thinking to give credit for this stuff to some fictitious
internet character "floor"... 

Floor has played a role as a kind of translator, draftsman, student and front man, with
our intent to gradually introduce certain understandings into the mass consciousness,
but the facts are.....

We are an elite global consortium of ascended masters, physicists, clergymen, engineers,
bench techs,  house wives, handymen, convenience store clerks, cowboys, Indians and bums. 

We see proof of miracles in the form of everyday life.  We have opened our eyes and choose
light rather darkness, love rather than fear, and freedom rather than taking a side at Armageddon.

The great work is just beginning but this is only because the truth springs eternally
new.  We are the ones we have been waiting for.  The technology itself is barely even
significant.

          peace out
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 29, 2018, 08:05:27 PM

TDForceDiagramed at dailymotion.com

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6vzwz5

          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 29, 2018, 08:48:34 PM
A link to a set of Twist Drive measurements.  They are way over unity.

https://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg491395/#msg491395

........................................
 Landing is launching 

Forward is Over Unity ......... Backward is Under Unity ...  but either way the TD device  not unity.

The device should have a spinning  thingy, or a flashing thingy... 

But it doesn't... it only has a thumping bottle thingy.... and honestly the "undeniable" video is some what misleading.....
When all of the measurements are done ..... they show under unity, not over unity... but launching is landing is launching is landing.

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 30, 2018, 08:10:55 PM
One more TD video

https://dai.ly/x6wfkrm

   I will return to the Mag force shield next.
           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on October 31, 2018, 02:26:49 AM
Thanks Floor,
I'm seriously considering making a similar, but  simplified set up,
just to get a feel of what's going on.
I have a 3d printer, which can help with some custom parts.
Best regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 31, 2018, 06:56:09 PM
@Telecom

Rock on
       floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 02, 2018, 09:47:20 PM
These video links have been giving me fits.

Re posting this link

TDForceDiagramed at dailymotion.com

    at

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d

     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 13, 2018, 09:39:58 PM
Here is a a PDF file "Magnet force shield attraction 11-8-18"

I am building a cross slide module for my test bed.  This magnet orientation / set up uses
pole to pole orientations for the fixed and sliding magnets and a "polar checker board"
configuration for the shield magnet array.   The shield is very effective and output
forces are around 4 times greater than in previous videos.


                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on November 14, 2018, 02:43:02 AM
Here is a a PDF file "Magnet force shield attraction 11-8-18"

I am building a cross slide module for my test bed.  This magnet orientation / set up uses
pole to pole orientations for the fixed and sliding magnets and a "polar checker board"
configuration for the shield magnet array.   The shield is very effective and output
forces are around 4 times greater than in previous videos.


                     floor
Looks very promising, but it would be nice to see the actual measurements.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 19, 2018, 09:59:19 PM


https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xgiez
        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 08:33:02 PM
Looks very promising, but it would be nice to see the actual measurements.

It would be nice to see you put your entitlements in check to.
Got any thing to contribute ?

           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 08:39:32 PM
posted 11/11/18


@Telecom

       Test bench is set up

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6v9zkz

           floor

                   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 08:59:43 PM


https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xihh7

   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on November 20, 2018, 11:01:13 PM
Hi Floor,
I have nothing to contribute yet, unfortunately my 3D printer requires a new print head,
waiting for the part.
Nevertheless, I'm following your progress with an enormous attention.
I want to make my test bed similar to yours to avoid surprises.
Best regards.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 11:41:12 PM


A word to the wise, about inconsistent magnet strengths.


                         https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xinsj7

                         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 11:46:49 PM
video didn't load, try again

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xinsj

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 20, 2018, 11:51:03 PM
Hi Floor,
I have nothing to contribute yet, unfortunately my 3D printer requires a new print head,
waiting for the part.
Nevertheless, I'm following your progress with a great attention.
I want to make my test bed similar to yours to avoid surprises.
Best regards.

                Best  regards also
                      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on November 21, 2018, 12:36:09 AM
Here is a a PDF file "Magnet force shield attraction 11-8-18"

I am building a cross slide module for my test bed.  This magnet orientation / set up uses
pole to pole orientations for the fixed and sliding magnets and a "polar checker board"
configuration for the shield magnet array.   The shield is very effective and output
forces are around 4 times greater than in previous videos.


                     floor
would be interesting to know the magnitude of the force of the inserting and removing the sliding shield.
Regards
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 25, 2018, 03:56:23 PM
short video

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xgiez

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: F6FLT on November 26, 2018, 10:26:15 AM
What is interesting is not only the magnitude of the force, but the work of the force, i. e. the energy.
Force alone is misleading. For example, the force exerted on a magnet sliding away parallel to another magnet is less than the force exerted when the magnets separate perpendicularly. Nevertheless the work is the same.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on November 26, 2018, 11:41:03 PM

Force alone is misleading. For example, the force exerted on a magnet sliding away parallel to another magnet is less than the force exerted when the magnets separate perpendicularly. Nevertheless the work is the same.

I think the other way around, perpendicular separation produces almost no effort.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 27, 2018, 08:42:22 PM
To determine the work / energy expended in simple magnet interactions...

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg525821/#msg525821

etcetera ........
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on December 10, 2018, 06:43:33 PM
posted 11/11/18


                   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an)
Since you posted this at my birthday, i want to make a comment :)
Is the sliding magnet suppose to lift up a bit so it can repel the stationary magnet when they are close to each other?
If so, and when you adjust the slide by reducing friction, you can place a spring where the slide can bounce back after repulsion. The slide magnet has dropped down to initial level at this point.
Then at this position it should not be any forces to prevent the slide to repeat the cycle (??) - just thoughts.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 11, 2018, 11:24:01 PM


QUOTE
"would be interesting to know the magnitude of the force of the inserting and removing the sliding shield."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 04:47:18 AM by telecom »

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

less than 4 grams force is applied
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 11, 2018, 11:25:50 PM
@Vidar

  Sorry I missed your post until now.

    I don't understand your question
         regards
         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on December 12, 2018, 08:17:12 AM
@Vidar

  Sorry I missed your post until now.

    I don't understand your question
         regards
         floor
Neither did I, LOL :) . I missed out something that made my question just dumb. What I asked for, was when you lift the moving magnet up, so more of south poles is facing eachother, you will get repulsion, but the moving magnet is forced down, and not neutral in the vertical plane even if it is neutral in the horizontal plane.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 13, 2018, 08:32:40 PM
Neither did I, LOL :) . I missed out something that made my question just dumb. What I asked for, was when you lift the moving magnet up, so more of south poles is facing eachother, you will get repulsion, but the moving magnet is forced down, and not neutral in the vertical plane even if it is neutral in the horizontal plane.


Vidar

Yes "not neutral in the vertical plane even if it is neutral in the horizontal plane."

Force is present in the vertical direction, but.... there is no work / energy expenditure required in the vertical directions.
Only increased friction upon the sliding track system.  That force can be neutralized by utilization of dual / magnetically isolated / mechanically linked units.

illustrated explained here         https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/169684/

                        regards
                         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on December 14, 2018, 11:47:09 AM
Maybe you should use V-slot wheels which can roll upon the steel rods, instead of sliding bearings? V-slot wheels would decrease friction to almost zero, and easier for you to examine the forces from the magnets. Link to a V slot wheel with ballbearing.
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB15NTULpXXXXcoXVXXq6xXFXXXH/SWMAKER-Openbuilds-5-m-t-Mini-V-Delrin-B-nh-Xe-r-ng-r-c-mini.jpg_640x640.jpg



Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 28, 2018, 08:39:41 PM
Seventeen videos showing how to get energy from magnets cyclically.

https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos

Also the latest design illustration below
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 28, 2018, 08:46:01 PM
@ Allreaders

Beginning on page 5 of this topic there are numerous pdf files that explain these magnet interactions and
how to apply them in order to achieve OU results.

              floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on December 28, 2018, 11:04:47 PM
Seventeen videos showing how to get energy from magnets cyclically.

https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos

Also the latest design illustration below

Would be nice to have something resembling a working drawing with the dimensions and specs for the magnets.
Is it too much to ask for?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 02, 2019, 09:06:08 PM
Would be nice to have something resembling a working drawing with the dimensions and specs for the magnets.
Is it too much to ask for?

So far every request you have made of me... was all ready answered some where in the topics.  Would be nice if you
stopped asking, and read the topics instead....

The exception was perhaps that... I had not stated that 4 grams is the approximate force / movement threshold of the sliding unit.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 02, 2019, 09:09:48 PM
@  Some details of some of the designs.

Please find the attached 2 PDF files below.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on January 02, 2019, 11:25:12 PM
So far every request you have made of me... was all ready answered some where in the topics.  Would be nice if you
stopped asking, and read the topics instead....

The exception was perhaps that... I had not stated that 4 grams is the approximate force / movement threshold of the sliding unit.
Sorry to say that, but I found your diagrams to be very short on detail,
as well as your demos.
For example, even your rack and pinion arrangement looks more like a child scribble.
rather than something people can use to make a working model out of it.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything with the dimensions so far in your posts,
with the exception for the dimensions of the magnets, but not the apparatus itself.
Unless you want it this way.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on January 03, 2019, 01:16:38 AM
Sorry to say that, but I found your diagrams to be very short on detail,
as well as your demos.
For example, even your rack and pinion arrangement looks more like a child scribble.
rather than something people can use to make a working model out of it.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything with the dimensions so far in your posts,
with the exception for the dimensions of the magnets, but not the apparatus itself.
Unless you want it this way.

I am amazed at how ungrateful some people are.  Floor has freely given you a lot of information he has collected by study and actual experiments.  No where have I seen where he suggested he was giving plans for a working device.  He is just freely sharing what he has learned.  It is up to those of us following his work to decide if we want to try and apply what he is FREELY sharing.  Please show some respect for his efforts.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on January 03, 2019, 02:51:31 AM
I am amazed at how ungrateful some people are.  Floor has freely given you a lot of information he has collected by study and actual experiments.  No where have I seen where he suggested he was giving plans for a working device.  He is just freely sharing what he has learned.  It is up to those of us following his work to decide if we want to try and apply what he is FREELY sharing.  Please show some respect for his efforts.

Carroll

This is a forum for a free exchange of the information, and obviously Floor wanted
it this way, to create an exchange of the ideas.
However, based on his materials, I'm not convinced that his ideas have merit.
I've red through his documentation, and still don't understand how his shielding
works.
He says , that it works by the neutralization of forces, but his shield consisting
of the perpendicular magnet just adds an extra forces to the set up,
rather than neutralizing them, even though it may freely move in and out as it
was shown.
On the other hand, a shield consisting of the magnetic material may have problems
of its own, by not being able to  move freely within the setup.
 In other words, more data is needed to substantiate Floor's ideas,
rather than providing prophecies.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: gyulasun on January 03, 2019, 04:52:49 PM
Dear telecom,
sorry to chime in, you say you still do not understand how his shielding works and you are not convinced his ideas have merit.

This being the case, you either obtain some cheap ceramic magnets with the correct magnetic poles and start doing some tests or just abandon his ideas and step on to other designs. If you choose the tinkering way you get into the best position to figure out how one magnet can shield two others and what forces are involved and how to solve the mechanical requirements.  This is the only way for you to understand his setup
Once you understand, you can work from that point even to improve upon it and further develop. 

Happy New Year to you and yours.

Gyula
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on January 03, 2019, 05:44:39 PM
I am amazed at how ungrateful some people are.  Floor has freely given you a lot of information he has collected by study and actual experiments.  No where have I seen where he suggested he was giving plans for a working device.  He is just freely sharing what he has learned.  It is up to those of us following his work to decide if we want to try and apply what he is FREELY sharing.  Please show some respect for his efforts.





Carroll
Thanks,
Carroll I agree with you. I am a bencher and I have boxes and boxes of experiments that I did.
But today we have masses of keyboarders who know it all. I usually say "I don't understand" or
"I did this and these are my results" Without naming the person  I was banned from a group
because I asked questions. I lost all respect for that person - sure had a short fuse the made
a quick explosion.

I have a list of 15 or 20 names that I have great respect for and they do not flare up and call people
names.
Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on January 03, 2019, 07:55:44 PM
Dear telecom,
sorry to chime in, you say you still do not understand how his shielding works and you are not convinced his ideas have merit.

This being the case, you either obtain some cheap ceramic magnets with the correct magnetic poles and start doing some tests or just abandon his ideas and step on to other designs. If you choose the tinkering way you get into the best position to figure out how one magnet can shield two others and what forces are involved and how to solve the mechanical requirements.  This is the only way for you to understand his setup
Once you understand, you can work from that point even to improve upon it and further develop. 

Happy New Year to you and yours.


Gyula

To make long story short, I think magnetic shielding have some merits.
I made a simple contraption and it does appear that it can make a repulsive force much smaller.
See attached.
Happy new year to you as well, Gyula!
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 04, 2019, 11:13:03 PM
To make long story short, I think magnetic shielding have some merits.
I made a simple contraption and it does appear that it can make a repulsive force much smaller.
See attached.
Happy new year to you as well, Gyula!

Thank you Telecom,  your last post / photos are a real contribution.

Not conclusive, but may have shown you that the concepts and designs have enough validity to merit a next step / build.

Some explanation...

A force does not expend and is not an expenditure of energy unless some thing is changed by that force......

Typically that change is described as motion, as a displacement along the direction of the force. 
                                        No motion = no work done and = no energy expended...

As an example consider.....   An auto mobile raised up, upon a lift.    Rotation of it's drive wheels has been completely locked.  The engine is running,
the manual transmission is engaged, but the clutch is not engaged.  Now the clutch is let out.  Once the clutch is engaged, no work / energy is expended by the engine.
Because its engine stops running.  No energy is then expended.   The engine must turn or there is no energy expended.  No motion = no work done and = no energy expended...

During the shielding magnet insertions and removals....  because of near balance between attraction and repulsion no work (nearly so) is done against magnetic forces....
Because forces are not present in the line / direction in which the shield is moved.

There ARE forces at right angles to those motions of the shielding magnet's insertion / removal.  But one does not fight them / and no work is done and no energy is expended
by or against or because of those forces.

This is because work = force times displacement.  If displacement = zero then energy expended also = zero....

There is an increase in friction upon the sliding  track system/s.  But even this increase, can be eliminated by dual / opposing systems.

One expends 1 joule of energy to lift a 102 gram sphere by 1 meter.  It requires no LIFTING ENERGY to move that 102 grams at a right angle to gravity's pull.
One then expends energy.....  only in accelerating that 102 gram sphere (side ways).  That expenditure is then,  only to over come friction  and / or inertia.

                     best wishes
                                   floor




Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 04, 2019, 11:20:19 PM
Corrected drawings of a variation of the force shield designs.

Please find the attached "MagForceShieldAttractFix 2-2.pdf"

                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 07, 2019, 07:47:09 PM
Two files / drawing sets that give some explanations of force direction, force neutralization, energy expenditure as the overcoming inertia......  and energy density

Please find the 2 attached files  "Undesired forces 1.PNG"  and  "LowAccelerationHighForce.PDF"

                     best wishes
                               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 07, 2019, 10:29:27 PM


@ all readers

               Please find below.....     the attached PDF file
   
                                          "LowAccelerationHighForce 2.pdf"

         It contains a correction / change of the previous version "LowAccelerationHighForce.pdf" on the last page (4)

                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 09, 2019, 08:37:13 PM
@ All readers


There are 13 different.... short videos at the link (below),
which demonstrate a variety of these magnet interactions.


            https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos

                        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 11, 2019, 08:19:23 PM
@Telecom

Magnets although they exhibit behaviors which are some times analogous to of levers and springs,
there are major differences in those behaviors.  Effects and / or results are some times startling / unexpected.


          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 15, 2019, 09:27:42 PM


These devices, methods, and designs which are novel are given into the public domain.

The drawings, written descriptions, other texts, and videos are also given into the public domain.

Any use of, including reproduction of, copying of, replication of, distribution of, commercial
manufacture of, sales of, personal use of, is granted, except that any changes or additions made to
the drawings, written descriptions, other texts, and videos must not be attributed to presented
as being of the original form or content of the drawings, written descriptions, other texts, videos or
presentations.  Changes and additions must be clearly indicated as being such.

I assume no responsibility or liability for any application made of these technologies
or devices.

I make no guarantees as to the function ability of any of these devices, methods, and
designs.

Some of the presented devices work as claimed, others do not.  Neither do I assume any
responsibility for any personal injury or property damage, direct or consequential.

I make no guarantees as to the correctness or accuracy of any of the information or
concepts presented.  Some of the information is as claimed, other parts may be
incorrect or incomplete or inaccurate. 

Any choice to distribute the materials is at the sole risk and discretion of any
person distributing them and in so doing that person agrees to assume any
liability for their content or application.

Please find the attached PDF files

"Parallel and Series.PDF"     and     "Parallel and Series x2.PDF"

ALSO a short new video @          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x70pgaf

                        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 15, 2019, 09:52:43 PM
A link  (from 2016)  posted by user LankaTV on another topic

http://license.umn.edu/technologies/20120016_iron-nitride-permanent-magnet-alternative-to-rare-earth-and-neodymium-magnets

                         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 17, 2019, 12:09:53 AM
4 drawings / flow charts

                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 17, 2019, 12:25:26 AM
Sorry... only two ot the drawings would upload
           
                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: gyulasun on January 17, 2019, 12:37:44 AM

Dear Floor,
Probably the problem is the picture size. both your pictures have 2556x3300  pixel mumbers and the horizontal pixel number allowed
for this forum is 900x  only instead of your 2556x
You may wish to use Windows Paint picture Editor to down size the pictures and then reupload them. You can remove the big pictures
when you go to the Modify icon on the upperright hand side corner of your post (scroll horizontally to the end).
Gyula
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 17, 2019, 12:41:41 AM


Attempting shrunken size images

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 17, 2019, 12:44:07 AM
Thank you Gyula
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 18, 2019, 10:12:41 PM
Presented below is a set of interactions limited to 4 magnets.

Use of more than 4 magnets becomes problematic

Please find the attached "problematic.PDF" file attached below.

                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on January 20, 2019, 07:36:18 PM
Magnets and motion :
probably 4d modelling usefull for later real modell comparison

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19851003&CC=DE&NR=3435068A1&KC=A1#

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19720623&CC=FR&NR=2112768A5&KC=A5#

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19970821&CC=DE&NR=19605730A1&KC=A1#
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 24, 2019, 08:08:28 PM
Thank you LankaTV

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 24, 2019, 08:15:53 PM
  One more

        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 24, 2019, 08:34:51 PM
To watch videos of some of these magnet interactions go to https://www.dailymotion.com/us 


Then search for my channel which is   seethisvid

              floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 26, 2019, 12:18:43 AM
This link should take you directly to my channel..

                               https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid

Also....  At the bottom of the previous page of this topic (page 10) there are four pages of diagrams
of a magnet interaction set.  In this design,  BOTH the (ordinarily illustrated as )  shielding magnet group.... and the fixed /output
magnet group produce / output work. 

                     This design / method, approximately DOUBLES THE OUTPUT TO INPUT RATIO of any previous designs.

Please pay especial attention to the MAGNET ORIENTATIONS within the two magnet groups ,  particularly as compared to
the orientations presented in the PDF file "problematic.pdf"  (at the top of this page).

                            regards
                                    floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 26, 2019, 08:05:35 PM
Here are four drwaings diagraming a mode in which output is via magnet attractions.

Output is by two sets of magnets.  Each magnet set is operating as attractions in series.

Operations of these two sets are simultanious to one another.

The output of these two series attractions are combined as a single parallel force output.

                          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 26, 2019, 08:14:23 PM
4 jpegs
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on January 27, 2019, 01:28:09 AM
I think you got some polarity issues in your drawings. Some of the magnets suddenly swap polarity during the cycle. Did I miss out something, or is it just a minor drawing error?


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 27, 2019, 04:17:56 PM
Thanks Vidar

Its an error in the drawing.   The magnets are not supposed to
change in their polar orinetations (or flip).

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 27, 2019, 10:51:36 PM
Here are thos drawings corrected

         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 31, 2019, 11:57:57 PM
Starting on page 5, but ...... specifically on page 6 of this topic are 3 files....


Instead of these 3 files as (ForceGraphing 2-2c numbers 1, 2 and 3 PDF)

here is a lower resolution file, which includes all 3 parts in one file.

I think the materials are easier to follow / the explanation, more fluid, when read in a single
read through. (no interuption while opening the next file).

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 12, 2019, 12:34:09 AM
a video I posted a year or two ago ?, but later took down.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 12, 2019, 08:31:36 PM
Two previously presented methods... the drawings reworked cleaned up.

    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on February 14, 2019, 03:14:28 AM
Nice set up, but it would be useful to measure the actual force of inserting/removing
central magnet.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 14, 2019, 08:38:45 PM
@Telecom

There are no measurements taken by me of that particular magnet interaction set ................
                                                and
if you are referring to this video ? ...... https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9
                                               and these drawings .......  https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/171897/

The operating principles are very similar to these actions / function for the same kind of reasons.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on February 16, 2019, 03:32:28 PM
@Telecom

There are no measurements taken by me of that particular magnet interaction set ................
                                                and
if you are referring to this video ? ...... https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9
                                               and these drawings .......  https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/171897/

The operating principles are very similar to these actions / function for the same kind of reasons.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

                 floor
I like this recent approach for its compactness.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 20, 2019, 07:46:15 PM
@Telecom

There is a lot of force between those two magnet stacks, and with only two magnets as the shield
it is working effectively.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on March 01, 2019, 09:27:47 PM
@Telecom

There is a lot of force between those two magnet stacks, and with only two magnets as the shield
it is working effectively.
stack of the magnets have only 2 poles, not the multiple poles as on the picture.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on March 06, 2019, 12:40:33 AM
The magnetic field of the shield becomes distorted when two main magnets are close by,
this causes resistance when the above shield is removed.
Floor just needs to measure the actual forces at his set up, to see if this arrangement is workable.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on March 06, 2019, 04:00:15 AM
Found some interesting material related to the magnet force measurements.
https://freeenergycommunity.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/kedron_eden_project.pdf
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on March 07, 2019, 06:13:29 PM
Found some interesting material related to the magnet force measurements.
https://freeenergycommunity.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/kedron_eden_project.pdf

There is an explanation there which says that magnet interaction  force is dependent
on the density of the magnetic field in the area.
This is actually similar to a TD drive concept and may explain it.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 21, 2019, 09:46:45 PM
Please find the attached file "MagForShldComplex 2.PDF"

Some drawings cleaned up / combined into a single PDF file.
 

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 28, 2019, 10:07:39 PM
@Telecom

Thanks for posting the link.
        floor
             
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 03, 2019, 11:32:54 PM
Looks like the Kedron "free energy from magnets device" has been disappeared and or proven not to work ?

But their pdf file has some good magnet information.

https://freeenergycommunity.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/kedron_eden_project.pdf

    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on April 04, 2019, 12:03:52 AM
When by" the law of momentum conservation" from action and reaction ever shall exist equivalence ( JLNaudins push&pull experiment shows asymmetry= no equivalence)

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm)
then it is the question where is to the Hildenbrand valve( doubling the flux lines) and Charles Flynn ( halfing the flux lines) force gain/loose reaction !?
doubling flux lines : 4 times the unit force
basic flux line: unit force
halfing the flux lines: 1/4 the unit force


doubling :  https://tesla3.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/zpe_hilden_brand_valve.gif (https://tesla3.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/zpe_hilden_brand_valve.gif)
halfing : https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20020129&CC=US&NR=6342746B1&KC=B1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20020129&CC=US&NR=6342746B1&KC=B1#)


That the input and output transformation process from conventional industrial machines can become improvedshow us this decriptions ( why and how !? explanation )

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Fred+miekka&IN=&CPC=&IC=
For all who are working in "surplus power generating machines" I would advice here " figure 10" study :
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110097209A1/en
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 05, 2019, 11:41:59 PM
@LankaTv

Thanks for the post / links...

Not boasting, but I'm up to at least 5 variations of magnet interactions that yield
more energy out as mechanical work,  than energy input,  as mechanical work.

Most are illustrated on this topic.  Some are explained in video demonstrations as well.

But I have not as yet built a single device which clearly / unambiguously / undeniably demonstrates
these interaction sets as over unity.    Should I or should I not ?
Your opinion please sir.

          best wishes
               floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on April 09, 2019, 04:59:59 PM
Hello floor,

at first I have to correct my " advice" : not figure 10 but " figure12 " the input / output should become studied :

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110097209A1/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110097209A1/en)
From negative C.O.P. to positive C.O.P., min/ max/ average

What is by your work your intention/ motive/ target ?
For example :
apply a demonstration device for the " overunity.com prize award" ?
Satisfying yourself and resolve the  royal academy "axiom"and definition :                                         
                                      ppm is physically not possible ( by given and determed closed cycle-conditioning)
 by  own creativity and intuition- freedome ?
You deliver your work results here and on youtube, my opinion does not make matter !
Wishing you and your work success
OCWL
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 15, 2019, 09:34:34 PM

What is by your work your intention/ motive/ target ?
For example :
apply a demonstration device for the " overunity.com prize award" ?
Satisfying yourself and resolve the  royal academy "axiom"and definition :                                         
                                      ppm is physically not possible ( by given and determed closed cycle-conditioning)
 by  own creativity and intuition- freedome ?
You deliver your work results here and on youtube, my opinion does not make matter !
Wishing you and your work success


Thank you again for your post / link (although the link is interesting it's off topic)

What does "OCWL" mean?

My motivations are a mixture of these and others.   

           Next let me clarify.
My Question to you / request for an opinion from you is in this regard.

Do you think that such devices as I have describe in this topic
            If we take it as a given   .....   that these devices make available mechanical energy ... in excess of the input mechanical energy.
would be of an overall benefit to humanity / planet Earth...
                                       or
would such  a device / devices be just as likely,
                            for example ......
to spawn a war with China over neodymium and so on, as it seems some people, now engage in war
 in order to control the flow or crude oil ?

            regards
                  floor


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on April 16, 2019, 10:21:44 AM
OCWL: my Name Oliver Christoph Waldhelm Lanca

The Solorzano- device is not off-topic following your first topic description.It shows increasing and decline from work to power ratio and positive and negative work performance.Based by magnetic machines, motor and generator.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sENgdSF8ppA (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sENgdSF8ppA1:50)
  1:50+ open coil.    2:23+ closed coil     "resistance". an open/ closed coil switch?

About Neodym : it is the science conflict to search for an alternative for Cobalt-content permanent magnets(AlNiCo)and the decision to use ( as same radioactive) Lanthaniden("rare earth")- Elements like Neodymium and Samarium ( based by Sumituomo Metalls and General Motors reseach and development).

The solution : weaker permanent ceramic ferrite magnets C5/C8 ( - but  later in magnets array configuration - )
Shkondin,  Flynn, Raser Tech development


or as same strong as Neodym magnets :
https://m.phys.org/news/2010-03-iron-nitrogen-compound-strongest-magnet.html (https://m.phys.org/news/2010-03-iron-nitrogen-compound-strongest-magnet.html)
Or: capacitive surges using electro-magnets with Tesla-force range output.
Or/and : permanent magnets and electro- magnets and/ or electro- permanent magnets combination.

Is it possible the " open cycle" gain circuit ? Yes, cause the existent physical asymmetry.With mechanical ( rotative or linear) output or electrical or both.

When actually the price forecast for solar cell energy and batteries - beginning with 2030 is in the 2 cents/KWh range- it will become difficult for inventors and their commercial industrial partners to calculate with "high margin profits" in future !

Sincerely
Oliver CWL
p.s.: " humanity" : there will be no change without conflicts, we will see winning and loosing.
           petrol based economies will be in decline cause enviromental issues ( petrol engines prohibition)       

            and less petrol-based plastics use.( + plastics- recycling)


           Instead copper aluminium and graphene coils/foils use .

           The products in future less maintenance/service-dependent and with longer work- life.

           I do not see China or India as " industrial " conflict :

           it is the 4d-cnc printing technology which let production becomes human-workpower free,     

          no human social costs only material input and KWh- salary.           

          Mini-factories in container-box dimension,  (self-) transportable over land/ sea/air.

          And human- free production management,24/7, ex-/ in-cluded telemetric organisation.
          Wireless communication and wireless energy transmission gives many possibilities.

          No local fixation : for consumer and producer.
         
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on May 08, 2019, 03:19:14 AM
@norman6538

I don't think of "Near Strong / Far weak" as being exceptionally
problematic.

 See the attached file below
 
                  regards
                    floor
That is an excellent writeup Floor. I missed that somehow.
I have used variable levers so I have to see how that applies.
Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 10, 2019, 09:54:40 PM
@Norman6538

Keep on keepen on
          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 14, 2019, 09:18:07 PM
Please find below the attached   "Magnetic force shield repulsion" PDF file.

This is a design all ready presented on this topic ... but those drawings were as functioning
in a magnetic attraction mode.

 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on May 14, 2019, 10:18:16 PM
Looks great Floor but how do you get the middle magnet pushed back in
so the cycle can be repeated? It could be easily inserted from the viewer
when both mags are matched rather than inserting from the end as the
drawing would suggest. And then how do you get the 3rd magnet on the right
to go back so it will repel because it is red to red and black to black..

Also remember closer stronger repel and further weaker repel so the
drawing is correct but that distance is likely not as realistic as it is to the eye.

I was grand parenting for a week and out of action so have to catch up.
Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on May 15, 2019, 08:37:35 PM
Floor I did get your blocking magnets to work when I made it right and it does
slide in and out easily if the sliding magnet goes along the line of the joint between
the two magnets of opposite poles.

Now I need to measure the forces to move vs the output.

In the past I have had several OU devices but to do the feedback and switching
to make it self run it needs about 300% OU. I was never able to get more than
about 250% and Like you I used weights to get accurate measurements.

You sure have an eye for magnets.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 15, 2019, 11:53:14 PM
Hi Norman

The blocking or "shielding" magnet  can be inserted and / or remove without doing work against magnetic forces.
This is because the attraction and repulsion are in balance, but that balance exists along certain lines of travel only.

When the shielding is in place...  the outer magnets are neutral to each other and also neutral to the shielding magnet,
but this absence of force / neutrality  is along a certain line of travel / directions only.

All magnets must be in precise alignment (centered and squared)
All motions must be at precise right angles.

               floor


 


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on May 30, 2019, 10:23:13 PM
Floor I am working on the measurements today. I use two neos in repel mode
about half an inch apart where it has a good bit of repel force. Then I use 2 Radio
Shack ceramic mags with  the hole in the center for the repel canceler.
It has some edge sticky spot problems and is very sensitive to get balanced
so it does not attract nor repel. It clearly looks like it takes less force to release the
repel than the repel force work would do.
Attached is a photo. I have a video of the edge sticky spot but I'll work on the
work out measurements now.

On the right you can see a red line which is where the 2 blocker magnets join
and you can see right below it one of the neos that is held in place by the metal.
On a separate setup I found that 3 washers can be lifted 1/4 inch from 1/2 inch to
3/4 inch. So if the work in is less than that it will be overunity.
Remember this is just rapid prototype and crude testing of the basic principle so
don't laugh at it.

My measurements are 150% out for 100 in. Which is OU but when you have to
reset the device to repeat the work multiplied it will not have enough extra to do
that which agrees with other OU devices that I have made. So unless the work in
or work out can be increased it will not self run.

But Floor you have worked diligently and found another permanent magnet OU
device.
Floor, with your skills I believe you can improve that to maybe 200 or 250%.
The problem is you need a small gap to get max repel work out.
And that takes precise embodiment.


Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on May 31, 2019, 04:26:50 PM
I tweaked the balance today and got it up to 1.92 OU - in work = 1  out work = 1.92
and it takes less to move it back so there is a good bit of hope on this.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 31, 2019, 08:10:27 PM
@Norman6538

High precision in alignment
         and
equality of the strength of the magnets used
       are critical to the functioning.

The shielding magnet needs to be roughly the field strength
equivalent of the fixed and output magnets combined.

         best wishes
                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 01, 2019, 01:08:45 AM
Floor, yes I realize equal magnets are crucial but the ceramic shield
does work due to the distance and they are thinner than the domino mags.
I use 3/8 in neos which reach far but are smaller than the ceramics.
I had no square neos to use.
And since the reset takes less work it just might self run.

If that works then ganging them together would create some
significant work out.
As Archamedies said "Yaricka"  sp? but I had my clothes on when I said "Yaricka" .

Floor, what is your next step?
I will try some other magnets but I will not modify this device because
I have had working things that got disturbed and modified and never
worked as good again. Its called "the Bollinger lesson".
I have my original pendulum that goes up further than its dropped point
in a box so it can be observed as it worked.
See my attached principle drawing without the pivoting part.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 01, 2019, 11:51:02 PM
Thanks Norman the drawings are appreciated.

There are many other drawings (hundreds) which illustrate
these principles. in the latter / second part of tjis topic


@ ALL READES

There are 19 short videos at this link, which show most of these action sets.
They are simple and yet what they imply is mind bloweing.

https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos

             Floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 02, 2019, 02:28:27 AM

There are 19 short videos at this link, which show most of these action sets.
They are simple and yet what they imply is mind bloweing.

https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos (https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid/videos)

Unfortunately that site goes to facebook and my computer blocks facebook
because one time when I was changing my cellphone virgintmobile went to
facebook and I did not trust it. Most people don't watch where these web pages
go to but I do. And fortunately I do not have the fastest cable internet so I can see
them.

But you are right about the simplicity and implication. I emailed my family and
closest friends who know what I have been doing for the last 10 years and only
one has a clue to its implication.

I'm certain when I get more robust with stronger magnets it will go over 300% where
there is enough extra to do the switching. I can envision a rotary wheel that can
be kick started with a weight and then will generate 20 times the work applied
by that weight.


Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 02, 2019, 01:48:39 PM
All of the working designs I have come up with have start  / stop motions, and some times back and forth motions.
Im not sure rotating motion can be done and still be OU.

Maintaining momentum can be done in a later mechanical stage, like the ratation of a bicycle wheel
occurs only after the back and forth (up and down) motion of the riders feet.

floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 05, 2019, 03:29:04 PM
It just occurred to me that a magnet assisted pendulum might be
the best application of this principle where a push keeps the pendulum
going.

I have my more robust device made but need more neos and Joann Fabrics
does not carry them so had to order them online - 80 magnets of various
sizes for $12. what a deal? I used a 16 inch front bicycle wheel axle because
It is very difficult to fine tune it - just a thousands of an inch movement will
switch it from attract to repel.

Magnets will arrive Thurs.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 06, 2019, 09:54:41 PM
Hi Norman

I looked at one of your magnet and pendulum designs a while back.

It's some what like the Twist Drive device in that it 's O.U. but then it undoes
the work it did (when the sliding unit is input and the rotating unit is output).

However, in the Twist Drive unit, when the fall of both the rotating and the sliding unit weights are
considered, the device is flat out O.U. .

              floor

Here is below an new drawing set / animation of an earlier O.U. magnet interactions.


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 06, 2019, 10:24:03 PM
Thanks Floor, I commend you for your diligence. You are much like Butch Lafonte
a few years back but he is nowhere around these days.
Your idea is great but I never liked the rack and had no way to make that.
I thought of using drawer slides but they are not very precise.
Do you have a good source for the rack?

I prefer robust bearings like the bicycle crank and the front wheel axle because
they are play/slop adjustable.

Butch Lafonte made a scissors like device that had repel on one end and
attract on the other end which demonstrates the balance but it has no use.
Your 2 opposite magnets is a mag force "balancer/killer". It is very tricky to
balance where attract and repel is equal so using the Lafonte opposites
I should be able to have one on each end of a bicycle crank and get them
balanced so there is almost no force to remove the mag force blocker
and let the repel work. So for very little effort I can get twice the work out
and increase the OU.

 My magnets did not come today and are delayed.
So I am working on a bicycle crank robust setup with a device
on each end of the crank to balance it out and that might be a good
thing not to have the magnets today because I can work more on the design
and save time and bench work.

Thanks for the dialogue. You are one of a few who are still interested in
harvesting the power of the permanent magnet.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 07, 2019, 12:04:12 AM


I am pretty sure there are others like myself that have been following these threads about using magnets for quite some time.  I do believe it is possible to harness that power but I don't comment much because I don't feel I have anything useful to add.  Both of you have been doing some excellent work and I try to follow you closely.  Thanks so much for your efforts and for being willing to share what you have learned.

Thanks again,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 07, 2019, 03:05:37 AM
Thanks Carroll. I learn slowly but it really sinks in. Floor has really discovered the
key to obtaining useful power from permanent magnets. And by counter balancing
2 or more mechanisms the work required will be very little. What behooves me is
that no one ever posts that they are making/exprimenting on such simple ideas.

We'll get there this year I think.
Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 08, 2019, 08:07:11 PM
@ Carroll

Thanks for pipeing in once in a while.

PS  I worked out an OU gravity device  !
  Didn't really think it was possable.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 08, 2019, 08:41:18 PM
Hi guys,


I might have something worth about 2 cents to add.  I have been thinking about how to make a smooth moving track with no side play.  I have found on Ebay small bearings in multiple quantities from time to time.  Usually like 12 or so to a set.  Skate board bearings are usually pretty cheap if bought in quantities of 12 or so.  If you get some of them or smaller bearings depending on the size of your project you can build a pretty solid slide or track with little friction.  Your first need to find some wooden dowel rod that is the same size as the inside of your bearings.  Then drill a hole in the dowel that is offset from the center.  Using bolts and nuts to mount the dowel onto your support board.  By rotating the dowel you can adjust the clearance between the bearing and your track or slide rod.  Obviously the rod or track needs to be square and perfectly smooth.  With two bearings on one side and one bearing on the other you should be able to get nice smooth movement.  Of course you also need bearings on the other two sides that are perpendicular to the first two.


And I also have an idea for a toothed track.  You can also get on Ebay various sizes and lengths of timing belts and the pulleys that go with them.  By cutting a long timing belt in to two pieces you could glue one half on one track rod and the other half on the other track rod and mount the pulley between the two track rods.  This would keep the tracks in time with one another without expensive gearing mechanisms.  The kind I am talking about are only about 1/8 inch to 1/2 inch wide.  I don't mean the large ones like are used on cars.  The small ones can also be found in some scanners and copy machines.  I have used those kinds of belts and pulleys for some of my experiments a few years ago when I was trying to get a magnet motor to work.  The motor didn't work but the timing belt and pulley did work just fine.

I hope these suggestions are some help.  Right now I am very busy with some major home projects but I really think the opposing magnet track idea will work with gravity and some weight bringing the magnets back together again.

Floor I am really looking forward to anything further you can add about your OU device.

Thanks again to both of you for your  efforts and being willing to share.
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 09, 2019, 01:57:40 AM
a section of toothed belt and a .gear

Very nice improvisation

            thanks
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on June 09, 2019, 09:03:36 PM
Hi Floor and Norman6538,

Been following your detailed work. I whipped up a quick sketch of a mechanism for moving the shields. The idea is to make a push slider which the trolley hits when it gets almost near the end. This of course would have to depend on the strength of the magnets and actuation distance needed. Thinner magnets could maybe help. I do not have enough hands on experience with your model so I do not know where the magnet starts to switch from shielding to repulsion( the most likely sticky spot). Maybe this will inspire another idea if it's not feasible.

Instead of the push slider another idea is using a compliant mechanism like the "Airplane" which creates a snap action toggle.

https://www.compliantmechanisms.byu.edu/flexlinks
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 09, 2019, 09:30:49 PM
Thanks  Dreamthinkbuild. Nice drawing.  My problem now is I cannot
get the magnets to balance well and the closer or stronger magnets
I use the worse that is. I realize that not all magnets are identical in
power.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 10, 2019, 03:26:14 PM
@ all readers

The sliding fixtures used must be rigid before you can get good results. 

Flexing of the magnets from their positions can mess things up quicker than just about any thing else.  Powerful neo magnets require high precision / very strong fixtures.
                                           Use of ceramic magnets recommended.

There is a ratio between the surface area magnets and their flux density.  Yes
                                           Use of ceramic magnets recommended.

Small and yet powerful magnets (neos) are very difficult to align precisely enough to get good results. 

A larger surface area of the magnets makes a workable alignment easier, because it allows for more margin of error in alignment.
                    example
A miss alignment of 1/16 inch off,  out of a 1 inch by 1 inch surface area, is off by 1/16. 
A miss alignment of 1/16 inch off, out of a 2 inch by 2 inch surface area, is like being off by 1/32 if the magnet were instead, a 1 inch by 1 inch surface area.                                                                   

A miss alignment by 1/32 inch might be well within a tolerable / workable limit when using 1 and 7/8 inch  by 5/8 inch surface area ceramic magnets.

If instead, one were using 1/2 inch by 3/8 inch, n48 magnets, the precision in alignment might need
to be within one thousandths of an inch !
 
Also, the alignment precision needed, is somewhat dependent upon which magnet configuration /
 method / device you are using.

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/169684/

        regards
                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 10, 2019, 03:44:36 PM
more

A misalignment of 1/32 inch when using a 1 and 7/8" by 5/8 inch
ceramic magnet, in some circumstances might result in a only a few
grams of force imbalance  The same amount of misalignment,  when
using 1/2 inch by 3/8 inch n48 magnets can easily result in a force imbalance
of HUNDREDS of grams.

This is due to BOTH, the greater strength of the the neos and the ratio of magnet's strength to
the width of the magnet's face.

          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 10, 2019, 03:49:47 PM
One more thing
   thanks
         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 10, 2019, 05:49:14 PM
Hi Floor,

I have ordered a bunch of bearings and already have lots of ceramic magnets.  I just need to find some suitable material for the rods and I think I will then have everything I need to start some serious experimenting with your ideas.  Thanks again for sharing.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 10, 2019, 11:18:57 PM
I discovered that one of my problems is I used steel to be able to
slide the magnets into adjustment and that causes some attract back
sticky spot. So I have switched to SS or Aluminum.

But further weaker weakens the power out.
So that means very close tolerance is needed.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 12, 2019, 03:28:36 AM


I found something today I think will make some nice rods for supporting all the magnets.  If you have a Tractor Supply store near you they have a pretty nice assortment of metal pieces and a very large assortment of nuts and bolt.  Today I found some aluminum angle that is 1/8" thick and measures 1" by 1" on the sides and it is 48" long.  I believe this will work fine with the bearings I have on the way to make a very rigid but smooth moving assembly for mounting the magnets to.  When I get some time I will try to draw up something to show how I plan to build the device based on all the information Floor has given.  I have out of town company coming in for a few days so it may be next week before I can try to draw something up.  But I am thinking about this a lot.  Still working out in my head the best way to move the shielding magnet at exactly the right time.  I think I have that idea worked out but will need to make some prototypes to see what works best.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 12, 2019, 08:10:34 PM

But I am thinking about this a lot.  Still working out in my head the best way to move the shielding magnet at exactly the right time.  I think I have that idea worked out but will need to make some prototypes to see what works best.

Take care,
Carroll

There is no continuous motion in the devices I have illustrated on this topic. 

There are some rotation aspects to some design  that were posted in another topic.

All motions and / or actions are start, completion of that action, then and then only then, does the next action begin.

There is No constant motion. 
There are no constant motions.

                floor

                 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 12, 2019, 08:15:35 PM

But I am thinking about this a lot.  Still working out in my head the best way to move the shielding magnet at exactly the right time.  I think I have that idea worked out but will need to make some prototypes to see what works best.

Take care,
Carroll

There is no continuous motion in the devices I have illustrated on this topic. 

There are some rotation aspects to some design  that were posted in another topic. See below.

https://overunity.com/17070/all-magnet-motor-td-based/msg502026/#msg502026

All motions and / or actions are start, completion of that action, then and then only then, does the next action begin.

There is No constant motion. 
There are no constant motions.

                floor

                 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 12, 2019, 09:00:46 PM


I am planning to build a device based on your rack design.  Shown in this PDF: (https://overunity.com/Themes/default/images/icons/clip.gif) Rack Action 3 complete.pdf (https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173069/)
I plan to have some weight on the upper arm and magnet to return it to the start position after the shield magnet is back in place.  Then remove the shield magnet again to restart the cycle.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 12, 2019, 09:17:42 PM
Since the tricky balancing and the extra power of the earlier design was not enough
I have switched to this. See the drawing. It is necessary to keep the gap to a minimum
to get maximum power. The domino sized ceramic magnets are too thick.
So I used 2 stacked Radio Shack ceramics with the hole in the middle to get
more repel power with less gap.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on June 13, 2019, 02:35:45 AM
Where this logic is wrong is that when two magnets are stacked together they are stronger.....right.
So the center magnet will get stronger where the poles add (N + S) and appear to the other repelling where there is (N+N) as a single stronger magnet, So in the end it's a wash and the magnets stay separated.

It would work if steel was used for the center magnet but that also causes it to become harder to remove when the repelling magnets are closer to the steel.
Maybe the center magnet could be two thin magnets with a thin sheet of steel between them to reduce the adding effect.

I think IEC uses something along this line, where there is some steel between the repelling magnets. (laminated if you look close)



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 13, 2019, 03:01:11 AM

Lumen said

Where this logic is wrong is that when two magnets are stacked together they are stronger.....right.
So the center magnet will get stronger where the poles add (N + S) and appear to the other repelling where there is (N+N) as a single stronger magnet, So in the end it's a wash and the magnets stay separated.

Lumen I'm not sure your are right. Is this head work or bench work?
The center magnet is sort of shunting the mag fields on both sides
of the magnet.

I should know in a few days....

Norman

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on June 13, 2019, 07:31:18 PM
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 08:44:19 PM
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.

Your design looks like a fail, but its not a replication of any of my designs.

Why don't you stick to what works ?

                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 08:45:58 PM
Where this logic is wrong is that when two magnets are stacked together they are stronger.....right.
So the center magnet will get stronger where the poles add (N + S) and appear to the other repelling where there is (N+N) as a single stronger magnet, So in the end it's a wash and the magnets stay separated.

It would work if steel was used for the center magnet but that also causes it to become harder to remove when the repelling magnets are closer to the steel.
Maybe the center magnet could be two thin magnets with a thin sheet of steel between them to reduce the adding effect.

I think IEC uses something along this line, where there is some steel between the repelling magnets. (laminated if you look close)

What's IEC ?

           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 08:51:27 PM
@Lumen

What are the polarities in your drawing ?

      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 08:53:36 PM
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.


How do you conclude that with the 3 Newtons increase ?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on June 13, 2019, 09:03:59 PM
#217 : IEC
https://overunity.com/18188/iec-earth-engine-first-magnet-motor-installed-in-las-vegas/msg535155/#new
#219:  15 N - 11,75 N = 3,25 N force difference or increase
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 09:24:48 PM
Hi Floor and Norman6538,

Been following your detailed work. I whipped up a quick sketch of a mechanism for moving the shields. The idea is to make a push slider which the trolley hits when it gets almost near the end. This of course would have to depend on the strength of the magnets and actuation distance needed. Thinner magnets could maybe help. I do not have enough hands on experience with your model so I do not know where the magnet starts to switch from shielding to repulsion( the most likely sticky spot). Maybe this will inspire another idea if it's not feasible.

Instead of the push slider another idea is using a compliant mechanism like the "Airplane" which creates a snap action toggle.

https://www.compliantmechanisms.byu.edu/flexlinks

Thanks DreamThinkBuild.

I appreciate your taking the time to do the drawing.

But please don't assume you know how or why these devices function.
          Your design is no good in this application.   
Because it entails installations and removals of the shield magnets BEFORE
 AND WHILE the other magnets are in motion.

Don't know how you missed this point. 

Sorry If I seem harsh, but your miss understanding is leading people off into a completely wrong direction.
                                   NOT GOOD.

   Done correctly 

1. The shield magnet is removed ONLY after the output magnets have completely finished closing together and are at a stop.
2. The shield magnet is reinstalled ONLY after the output magnet have completely finished expanding and are at a stop.
3. No other way !

You may not see why this matters, but then, as I said, apparantly you miss understood / assumed the hows and whys.

    Also
There is / are no sticky spot/s, if it's done right.  Exception: at very close proximity there can be a very minor stickiness
due to domain re-orientations.  This is entirely different from what is classically called "the sticky spot"
There is no / are no sticky spots, in  the respect the words "stick spot" typically refers to,  in attempted magnet OU devices.

These designs are not attempts to conserve momentum or improve efficiency. 
They are work from permanent magnets, designs, not efficiency designs. 

In terms of the typical / conventional approaches,  these designs are / seem wasteful.

But if its OU, it's not wasteful ?
 

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 09:54:43 PM
Using this configuration there should be about a 3 Newton increase in force without the shield magnets.
Repelling magnets .25 x 1 x 2 and shield magnets .125 x 2 x 3.

The force between repelling magnets is 11.75 Newtons with the shield and about 15 Newtons with shield removed.
The shield magnets are held close together with repelling forces.

If you are encouraged because of this outcome, then I suppose this is a good thing.  But compared to what I
have seen in some of these interactions, those are mediocre results.

I can't give any advice as to how to improve your results. I don't have enough details.

      regards
                   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 13, 2019, 10:12:04 PM
Thanks Norman

True, it might be more accurate to call the shielding, shunting.  But pretty much any kind of
shielding is shunting.


@ Lumen

The difference between when shielded (shunted)  and not shunted is huge in this
configuration.       https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

Please do an exact replication of it.  But put both actions / magnet s on precision track system.

Note, as a second test, the shield magnets could be N to S on the broad sides, instead of the two
shield magnets being glued together in repulsion (wearing each other out).

                 Sorry if I've been testy /  out  of line
                     rough day
                       floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 13, 2019, 10:37:19 PM
I really appreciate the civil discussion that we are having on this thread.
Its quite simple - take and idea and make something and test it and report
the results without name calling and accusations. Then with some critiquing
and suggestions improve it. And of coarse we will always hear "don't waste
your time because all energy is conserved" which means to me the energy comes
from somewhere and in the case of magnets we know where it comes from -
the magnet but after work is derived the reset for another cycle comes at a price.

I am now stuck at bearing tolerance. I use 2 skate bearings and they have enough
play to make 1/6 inch movement at the end of an arm 12 inches away.
some  folks have told me to look for RC car bearings. I'll get there but it
takes time.

Floor I would call your setup a magnetic field disrupter because it disrupts the
normal attraction or repelling.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on June 14, 2019, 03:08:23 AM
Hi Floor,
The setup is the same as your PDF file except the two piece magnetic shield.
A layered opposing magnet seems to work best for the shield and is still easy to insert or remove with no real force.
The only thing I found that works better for the shield is this same configuration but with very thin steel between them but it also causes some attraction to the two working magnets.

That's why I ran the calculation to find the results for the shown magnets. They are all N35's and the sizes shown. The best results were with very little spacing in the fully closed position.
The results would likely be different if using ceramic magnets.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on June 14, 2019, 03:42:10 AM
Hi Lumen,
 do you have the actual photo/video of your setup?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on June 14, 2019, 04:54:01 AM
Yes, but of course it doesn't actually work because you cannot shield the field.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 14, 2019, 05:04:54 AM
Thanks Lumen for the clairification and experimentations.


Quote from floor earlier in this topic

"The sliding fixtures used must be rigid before you can get good
results.

Flexing of the magnets from their positions can mess things up
quicker than just about any thing else.  Powerful neo magnets
require high precision / very strong fixtures.
                               Use of ceramic magnets recommended.

There is a ratio between the surface area magnets and their flux
density.  Yes
                               Use of ceramic magnets recommended.

Small and yet powerful magnets (neos) are very difficult to align
precisely enough to get good results.

A larger surface area of the magnets makes a workable alignment
easier, because it allows for more margin of error in alignment.
                    example
A miss alignment of 1/16 inch off,  out of a 1 inch by 1 inch surface
area, is off by 1/16.
A miss alignment of 1/16 inch off, out of a 2 inch by 2 inch surface
area, is like being off by 1/32 if the magnet were instead, a 1 inch
by 1 inch surface area.                                                                   

A miss alignment by 1/32 inch might be well within a tolerable / workable
limit when using 1 and 7/8 inch  by 5/8 inch surface area ceramic magnets.

If instead, one were using 1/2 inch by 3/8 inch, n48 magnets, the precision
in alignment might need to be within one thousandths of an inch !
 
Also, the alignment precision needed, is somewhat dependent upon which
magnet configuration / method / device  you are using.

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/169684/

        regards
                floor"  END QUOTE

Note:
When my ceramic magnets are aligned so that the attracting and repelling forces are in a near balance, new forces arise due to magnetic domain re-orientations. They are along that same balanced vector, and become noticeable as a WEAK stickiness to the shield magnet. 

When using ceramic magnets, those undesirable / sticky  forces have only arisen while the
magnets are at very close proprieties. 

I believe that because magnetic force increases very sharply at the final / very near distance,  that  this is the only point at which  the field strength becomes great enough to significantly reorient some magnetic domains.  I did some tests along these lines and they seemed to verify this theory. 

I don't  how the neos behave in this respect.
I don't have any experience in this regard when it comes to Neo magnets.

        interested to see more of your tests / experiments
                   regards
                      floor




Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 14, 2019, 05:08:45 AM
@ Lumen


Yes, but of course it doesn't actually work because you cannot shield the field.

Is this posted in the wrong topic ?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 16, 2019, 01:13:37 AM
I am truly stuck again with not being able to get it balanced where almost no effort is required to move the distrupter magnet. A stack of 3 or 4 gives plenty of repel force
a lot is lost when the gap gets wider and the force weaker.
The round neos are way too tricky so I went back to cereamics.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 16, 2019, 03:18:19 PM
@ Norman 6538

Your fixtures / set up is not rigid enough, nor high precision enough
to give consistent results.  Half measures wont get you there.

I still maintain that you should get some one with a wood shop (a cabinet maker or friend) to build you a solid test unit.  2 sliding units at right angles to each other, each with precision linear bearings. It must be adjustable in many directions and adaptable for the mounting of many varieties of magnet shapes and sizes.

No experiments nor proofs from you, can be valid without some kind of setup like that, although your input and opinions still are.

           regards
                   floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 17, 2019, 10:28:37 PM
@ norman

The magnets in this 6 minute video are clamped and / or hand held.

               https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

But what they show is clear enough for anyone to see and / or try for their self.

There are 19 (I think) videos at the SeeThisVid channel at dailymotion.com.

                         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on June 17, 2019, 11:05:18 PM
Floor, I started fixed mount but that did not tell all. So I moved to one fixed side
and one moving so measure the potential work in and out. The vertical disrupter magnet
must be vertically aligned to acquire the neutral force or it will either repel
or attract.
My rough efficiency is under 100% today.
So here are some things I discovered.
1. the vertical disrupter magnet should be as thin as possible so closer
stronger gives more power.
2. but the vertical disrupter magnet has to be strong enough to disrupt the repel of the
two magnets.
3. Once balanced vertical disrupter magnet must remain in alignment when it
   is extracted to allow the repel to work.

4. I am using 3 stacked Radio Shack magnets because 2 are too weak and
   4 are too strong for the vertical disrupter magnet to release the repel force.

My drawings always work (armchair quarterbacks) but my embodiments ( benchers )
do not do as well as the drawings.


Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 17, 2019, 11:53:08 PM

My drawings always work (armchair quarterbacks) but my embodiments ( benchers )
do not do as well as the drawings.


Norman

LOL   The story of my life.  Thanks for the laugh.

Cheers,
Carroll

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on June 19, 2019, 03:35:46 AM
@ Floor,
That is an interesting video!
I tested this in the simulator and found amazing results.
It seems the center magnet set causes one of the outer magnets to loose all the force against it while the other sides force is greatly increased.

I tried both ceramic and neo's with the same results, but the neo's were obviously way stronger.
This may be in fact the key to getting something really powerful operating.


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 19, 2019, 08:52:32 PM
Hi Lumen

Cool
  congrats

Broad polar faces, facing each other makes a broader path for the
magnetic fields (lesser field density during the interactions).
Too great of a density within the fields tends to lessen the effetiveness of the
shielding / shunting.  Some kind of saturation phenomena, I think?  I think also
that this may be    ONE    of the reasons that the shielding, when done in
attraction modes of output, behaves not as well / differently.

        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 28, 2019, 02:57:54 AM


Some pictures from my attempt to build the device shown in Floor's pdf.  I still need to get the other track mounted and then the track coming in from the right to shield and unshield the opposing magnets.  The magnets are ceramic and will be super glued to the aluminum end pieces on the track.  I have used a lot of my Dad's machinists tools I inherited from him to make sure everything is perfectly square and true.  The two bearings on one side and one bearing on the other side seem to make a very solid device that can still move easily.  And there are two bearings on the bottom of the track with one on top to control motion in that direction also.

I am working on this pretty slowly because of a couple of major home projects but will from time to time post updates as I get farther along.

Take care all,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 28, 2019, 11:10:38 PM
It looks like you have 3 bearings for the lateral (counting the Pinyon gear), and three for the vertical.

Nice progress !

     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on June 28, 2019, 11:23:46 PM
Thanks.

There are actually 3 bearings for the lateral besides the pinyon gear.  The 3rd is hidden behind the top bearing in the middle picture.  You can barely see it just to the right of the block of wood the top bearing is mounted on.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on June 30, 2019, 02:37:04 AM
@citfta
Thank you as well

@ All readers

Some of these designs result in more mechanical
work out than is input.

See for your self.
      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 07, 2019, 07:58:06 AM
Short video of one design @

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

There are 18 other designs / videos available there as well.
  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ramset on July 07, 2019, 03:08:40 PM
Here the TinMan works on Floor's inspiration [as always ..shared with permission]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU)
much Gratitude [I hope its OK to post it here in this thread , wasn't sure which one of your topics was best ?]

Floor you are a true inspiration ![as is the TinMan

Respectfully submitted
Chet K////Edit// I see TinMan added Vids to your topic here https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/msg536314/#new // (https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/msg536314/#new) maybe if you are interested we could ask Stefan about giving you a Moderated builders board or ?? to keep your topics clean [example remove this misplaced post ?]


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 08, 2019, 12:21:58 AM
Thank you Ramset !

I have never resorted to moderation on any of my topics, only threatened to  do so.
I will consider it.

Thanks again Tinman.
Be advised that rotary designs are dicey at best.  A failure in one of them might reflect
badly upon investigations of the strictly linear designs.
We need to not be concerned with conservation of momentum at this point in the process.

          regards
                  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: tinman on July 08, 2019, 06:17:18 AM
[quote author=Floor link=topic=16954.msg536327#msg536327

Thanks again Tinman.
Be advised that rotary designs are dicey at best.  A failure in one of them might reflect
badly upon investigations of the strictly linear designs.
We need to not be concerned with conservation of momentum at this point in the process.

          regards
                  floor
[/quote]

Yes, i hear you.
I will make sure that everyone knows that the two are different,and one should not answer for the other.


Brad
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on July 08, 2019, 09:37:42 AM
Look, ferromagnetic particles in Brownian motion, if placed in a magnetic field. You must take an orderly motion. Reduced entropy. Different forces will act on a particle moving along the field line and across the magnetic field line. I'm right?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 09, 2019, 04:45:30 PM
Look, ferromagnetic particles in Brownian motion, if placed in a magnetic field. You must take an orderly motion. Reduced entropy. Different forces will act on a particle moving along the field line and across the magnetic field line. I'm right?

Wrong topic ? kolbacict
                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 09, 2019, 05:29:17 PM
@Ramset

Moderation could get to be a big job.  Hopefully not. I think Its a good suggestion.

Deleations should  be done only to keep the topic on topic, no punishment element.

Five conditions I would like to see met. (Good Luck)

1. Since the topic is on a "floor design / designs" then the design should be followed as closely
as is reasonable / possible.

2. New designs / major "improvements" / innovations be presented on a separate topic.

3. I would want to see all deleted materials posted in their order of appearance,
to a separate topic.

4. That the deleted material topic, is available for any member to read / comment in.

5. No discussions of / re posting of deleted material on the main topic, once
they have been deleted


I can't take on the job.  I have too much on my plate at this time.
Some one else please ! (maybe Tin Man ?)


@All readers

I'm sure you will give them  rigorus due dilligence and testing, but  please resist the temptation to do improvements at this time.  These designs are my babies.

                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 09, 2019, 05:49:46 PM
@Tinman

Linear designs have the potential for power via brute force.
Rotating designs have the potential for power via high speed.

Below is a topic on a few rotating designs.

https://overunity.com/17070/all-magnet-motor-td-based/msg498197/#msg498197

 regards
    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on July 11, 2019, 05:58:28 PM
I forgot to add the video to this post so please see the next one.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on July 11, 2019, 06:05:23 PM
Here is a short video showing my build of Floor's rack 3 design from his PDF.  As he has said it must have pretty accurate alignment before it will work properly.  But it can be made to work as you can see in the video.  The magnets in the video are just cheap magnets from Lowe's.  After mounting them I found the strength varied some making the adjustments a little harder.  A gauss meter used to help match up the strength of the magnets would probably be a help in making a better build.


https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 11, 2019, 09:33:50 PM
@ CITFTA

Pretty good results !

I hope you made your test bed easy to modify

Two outer magnets tend to overpower a single shield magnet.  Where as, an over sized (broader)
shield magnet doesn't adversely effect the shielding but instead (up to a point) improves it.

Your shielding would be improved by the use of a shield magnet that is about twice as broad as the one you used
                   or
2 magnets as below (this works just fine).

Also note that,  when using a broader shield magnet, the fine tuning / adjusting,  is easier and can be less precise.

              floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on July 11, 2019, 09:44:13 PM
Thanks for the suggestion Floor.  Do you know if a thinner shield magnet would still work as a shield?  I am thinking that would allow the rack magnets to get closer together so they would have more repelling force when the shield magnet is removed.  I can fairly easily make changes to my test bed as everything is mounted with screws and assembled with bolts and nuts.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lumen on July 11, 2019, 11:32:31 PM
@ citfta

Before you tear it down you might want to try to determine what if any problems exist for the setup.
I found that when two magnets are pushing apart at close proximity there is some additional force required to remove the shield.
When the magnets are operated in attraction the shield would need more force to insert.

You might try a thin neo for the shield but it could also destroy the ceramic magnets if too close.

Nice sturdy setup though.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: telecom on July 12, 2019, 03:07:38 AM
Here is a short video showing my build of Floor's rack 3 design from his PDF.  As he has said it must have pretty accurate alignment before it will work properly.  But it can be made to work as you can see in the video.  The magnets in the video are just cheap magnets from Lowe's.  After mounting them I found the strength varied some making the adjustments a little harder.  A gauss meter used to help match up the strength of the magnets would probably be a help in making a better build.


https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4

Carroll

Hi Carroll,
can you make some basic measurement of the forces x distance?
I like how you make them moving synchronously with the roller.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on July 12, 2019, 03:31:37 AM
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the nice comments.

Luman,  after reading your post I did try moving the shield magnet very slowly from between the opposing magnets.  And I did feel just the slightest bit of force at one point resisting the shield magnet from being removed.  At what I would consider normal speed of removing the shield I did not detect that.  I don't know if that can be removed completely by more careful adjustment or not.

telecom,  I do not have any way to measure the forces of movement right now.  I am going to be very busy for the next couple of weeks but when I can get back to this I will see what I can come up with to do that.  With these small ceramic magnets the forces will only be in ounces I am sure.  So it will take a small spring scale of some kind.

Later,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on July 12, 2019, 02:25:31 PM
About measurement. I do not like  measuring instruments so I always use weights
times distance. I use washers or nuts so I can easily add or mix them.  I then drop the
ounces or pounds and call them units of work ie. 1 oz. x 1/8 in I call 1 unit of work etc.

My first OU
showed equal weights moving a greater distance giving 180% but this was not the
Floor setup. There is a little loss in inertia staring but if you use 2 weights. 1 to get
started and then caught by a floor and the other to carry through you can get an
accurate measurement.
Best of Luck. I expect my next device to be made and tested within a week.
We had International guests all this week.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 13, 2019, 06:02:58 PM
Hi Carroll,
can you make some basic measurement of the forces x distance?
I like how you make them moving synchronously with the roller.

Hi Telecom

This video  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q   doesn't give measurements,
but it does demonstrate the threshold sensitivity of the test bed shown (mine). 

From this video   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an   ......
one can see that the force to install the sheild magnet is about as small as is
the lower limit of the test bed's sensitivity  (in the range of about 4 grams).

The output magnets can produce a force which is in this range (see the graph) below.

regards
 floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 13, 2019, 06:32:52 PM
Also

The graph above is of the magnets, when facing each other on edge in repulsion.
Forces are MUCH  higher in direct pole to pole magnet orientations (Like CITFTA demo).

and for some reason the graph I just posted shows the force to distance
curve inversely ......  I just grabbed (semi randomly) a graph off my hard drive
(from the Twist drive topic).

So I hope you can see why it is that for all of the effort of doing measurements,
it seems a mute proposition to do so, once one has in hand experienced, the very large
difference between force needed to intsall or remove a shield and ...
the difference in the force between  the output magnets when a shield has been
removed or installed.   

    regards
           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 13, 2019, 06:53:12 PM
           ALSO   ALSO

Thanks for the updates / videos Tinman

     @

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU

I think I see your design / intent,  good luck with it.

Note:  Undesired up and down forces (luc's force) will be high, especially with the leverage
factor present as the radius of the gears.

  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 14, 2019, 03:33:30 AM
Notes to Tinman's design :

1. The design Tinman is currently presenting, is a design variation
of one presented by user LowQ / Vidar.

2. I think that the device will stall.

3. The shielding magnet array needs to be designed such that it
can be held to a sliding motion which is precisely along a vector, which is
90 degrees to a line which is directly between the centers of rotation of the two gears.
That vector must also be parallel to the plane of rotation of the rotating magnets.

4. That sliding vector must also be centered with the rotating magnets in terms of up and down.
( by up and down I mean, parallel to the axis of rotation of the rotating magnets)
 
5. The first implementation of it should have only 2 magnets on each gear, 4 total.
You can always add the rest of them later.

6. The 2 magnets should be space at 180 degrees around the gear.

7.  Gear on left is rotating cw gear on right is rotating ccw.
The shielding magnet /s will need to be pulled back, just AFTER top, dead, center
position of the two repelling / rotating magnets is reached.  Other wise the device will stall.

8. The shielding magnet /s will need to be returned to their original position well before
the next set of magnets arrive at top, dead, center.  This is why to use only 2 magnets per
gear initially.

9. Unlike the (classic design /  fail)  rotating V gate with bouncing sticky spot avoidance,
Vidar's / your design will produce energy / can self run.  But only by a reciprocating motion
of the shield.  In my humble opinion.

Vidar's design has elements of the newton's magnet design, but is more like this design
below "rackAction2.PDF" attached below.

   Again best wishes and keep up the good work !
         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 24, 2019, 11:10:10 PM
@citfta  / All readers
These devices are based upon start, complete, stop motions.

citfta,  in your video demonstration you allow the output magnets to begin their motions
AS THE SHIELDING MAGNET IS BEING REMOVED.  Because of this, your demonstration is NOT ACTUALLY
ONE OF THE MAGNET INTERACTIONS I have been presenting. 

The DEVICE ITSELF is representative of a particular design.
The modality of its operation is not.

If however you will hold back the expansion of / between the output magnets, until the shielding magnet has
been COMPLETELY removed,  your build would THEN, be functioning in accord with the described manner of
operation / modality.

Very nice demonstration.  Very nice build. Your device illustrates certain actions splendidly.

If you can find the time to do so, would you video / redemonstrate the actions with the output magnets
held back, until after the shielding magnet has been completely withdrawn.

This is a CRITICAL element of the designs, and it seem that most every one has not and does not at this
point, realize this.

Again
  Thank you very much for your build and demonstration !

          regards
                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on July 27, 2019, 01:38:55 AM
Hi Floor,

Sorry for the slow response.  I have been on vacation for 9 days with my wife and two granddaughters.  Here is the video you asked for.  I have made one change since the last video.  I did add another magnet to each of the repelling magnets.  The action is much stronger now with a little increase in the effort to remove the shield magnet.   Also I see now that I only have to move the shield magnet a very short distance before the other magnets start to repel.  A short quick movement of the shield magnet gets a very quick response from the repelling magnets.  You can see this in the video.

https://youtu.be/tUHtlruVSus

Enjoy the short show,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on July 27, 2019, 11:44:56 AM
Nice work Carroll, now you need to measure the work in and out.
And if you pair 2 of these together like Lafonte you can reduce the work in.

But those magnets are thick and further weaker applies to the power out.
If you could shave off 1/8 inch of the magnet it could make a difference
but I don't know how to  do that - BUT IF YOU TRY BE CAREFUL OF FRAGMENTS
GETTING INTO YOUR EYES.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 27, 2019, 06:56:28 PM
Nice work Carroll, now you need to measure the work in and out.
Norman

@ Norman

I think it's not a good idea for you to be telling user CITFTA what he"needs to do"

@CITFTA

Thanks for the new video.  It a major / critical point of importance.

I am certain you are allready aware, but the force between the repelling output magnets drops off rapidly with distance. 

If the shield is still partially in place as those repelling magnets are moving farther apart, the force in that repelling is not at the maximum as it could have been, if the shield were completely absent. 

By the time the shield is completely out of the way, that maximum force is lost for good, because the outout magnets have allready moved beyond the point of their maximum
repelling force.


ALso

Sorry I wasn't communicating very clearly at an earlier point but

What I intended to convey, about adding another magnet, was to place it in the shield position.
                  Like in this attached pdf file below "MagForceShield 6.pdf"

   best wishes
           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on July 27, 2019, 07:55:55 PM
Floor and Butch Lafonte I want to thank each one of you for all the different designs that have great possibility for free power. You two have kept the hope of free
non polluting power alive...

A quick and dirty in vs out measurement on my Lafonte Cascaded device show
1 unit in and 4 units out. Even 1:3 would be very good.

Norman

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 27, 2019, 08:13:51 PM
OkY DOKE Norman


@citfta
 png file below

1. two magnets stacked edge to edge.
2. one magnet is above the other.
3. polarities are alternated on the broad face.
4. they will attract to one anther in that arrangement.
5. they slide side ways (in your device) into between the output magnets.
6. the line / junction of these two shielding magnets, should be centered
precisely between the output magnets in the VERTICLE plane.
7. and of course, as parallel to the faces of the output magnet as can be managed.

Note: a single shield magnet tends to be over powered by two out put magnets.
there are other important factors (why the shield magnets alternate face polarities)
which are too much to discuss right now.

       regards
           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on July 30, 2019, 09:24:08 AM
Hi Floor,

Sorry for the slow response.  I have been on vacation for 9 days with my wife and two granddaughters.  Here is the video you asked for.  I have made one change since the last video.  I did add another magnet to each of the repelling magnets.  The action is much stronger now with a little increase in the effort to remove the shield magnet.   Also I see now that I only have to move the shield magnet a very short distance before the other magnets start to repel.  A short quick movement of the shield magnet gets a very quick response from the repelling magnets.  You can see this in the video.

https://youtu.be/tUHtlruVSus

Enjoy the short show,
Carroll
Can you demonstrate how the two opposing magnets react if you push them only half way (Or any place between fully open and fully closed) towards eachother, while the shield magnet is in place?


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 31, 2019, 10:50:53 PM
Can you demonstrate how the two opposing magnets react if you push them only half way (Or any place between fully open and fully closed) towards eachother, while the shield magnet is in place?


Vidar

Thats the right direction / point LowQ

As he ORIGINALLY configured it, citfta's build should NOT operate in a smooth / linear manner,
NOR should it produce a net gain in energy.

As LAST configured, CITFTA's build should NOT operate in a smooth / linear manner,
NOR should it produce a net gain in energy.

     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 31, 2019, 10:55:26 PM
This configuration of the design which citfa's build most resembles, was uploaded (by me)
on May 14 / 2019

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/172888/

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 31, 2019, 11:28:54 PM
These two videos by citfta, are of a design he built,  which the Tinman presented.

https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4
https://youtu.be/tUHtlruVSus

Nice build and nice short demos !


But to be clear, they are
          NOT REPRESENTATIONS
of the designs I have presented, and they are not the design which citfta originally stated that he intended to build.


I am planning to build a device based on your rack design.  Shown in this PDF: (https://overunity.com/Themes/default/images/icons/clip.gif) Rack Action 3 complete.pdf (https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173069/)
I plan to have some weight on the upper arm and magnet to return it to the start position after the shield magnet is back in place.  Then remove the shield magnet again to restart the cycle.

Carroll
                            or
https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173069/

Best wishes
           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on July 31, 2019, 11:36:21 PM
@All readers

And respectfully,I'll say, that it is up to citfta, as to if he wants to modify it
into one of my designs.....  or not.

best wishes
      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on August 01, 2019, 12:08:31 PM
These two videos by citfta, are of a design he built,  which the Tinman presented.

https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4 (https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4)
https://youtu.be/tUHtlruVSus (https://youtu.be/tUHtlruVSus)

Nice build and nice short demos !


But to be clear, they are
          NOT REPRESENTATIONS
of the designs I have presented, and they are not the design which citfta originally stated that he intended to build.
                            or
https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173069/ (https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173069/)

Best wishes
           floor

Hi Floor,

Can you please explain why you feel my build is not an exact replication of your rack 3 design.  I am a little confused.  You PDF shows two magnets in opposition to each other and connected by a rack and pinion gear arrangement.  And a shield magnet in between the opposing magnets.  So why do you feel I have not correctly built your rack 3 device?  The only difference between the videos and what  I said I was going to build is that I haven't added a weight yet to the rack assembly.


Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 01, 2019, 04:20:46 PM
Hi citfta  No problem.  Thanks for your questioning.  Sometimes my example drawings are
not as good as I thought they were.

I like your build.  Very nice rack and pinion action. Nice and smooth action on the
cross slide too.

But the orientation / direction of the shield magnet is 90 degrees off.

If you rotated it so that its broad faces were up and down that would be
one of the designs I have presented.  But I don't recommend that.
                           Because,.....
1. with the magnet shapes you are using,  the sliding magnets
would be too far apart, even when they are pushed toward each other.
2. You would be shielding two magnets with just a single one.

A better solution (but still inadequate solution)is to use two magnets in
the shield magnet position.

These would be stacked, on edge, one above the other.

A NORTH pole of the upper one facing (for example) LEFT.
A SOUTH pole of the underneath magnet should then be facing LEFT.

The magnets will be attracted to each other, and stick together, when
assembled edge to edge like that.

During the insertion and removal of this shield magnet array, the line
where the two shield magnets meet each other (junction), should be
at the vertical center of the output magnets.

                              But there is a second problem.

Because the output magnets in your build have their longest dimension
oriented as up and down. You will actually need to use FOUR magnets in
the shielding array. 
                                             because
1. Two magnets (as I described), would not be as tall as the output magnets.
                                               and
2. Three magnets as the shield would not create the correct balance in the forces

Those FOUR magnets in the shield array, should be alternating in face / pole orientations,

Because of the good quality of your build, I think you will be quite pleased with the ease of the
insertion and removal of the shield magnets (which are now a simple array).  That ease of
insertion and removal wont be changed very much if the output magnets are either near or far.
The difference between shielded an un-shielded output repulsion will be big.
                      regards
                            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 01, 2019, 07:20:37 PM
@ citfta

Sorry but I had to cut that last post short.  I ran out of time / had to go some where.

But yet again, using 4 magnets in the shielding magnets position will present still
other problems.  I cant get into those at this time.

No worries and no hurries though.
.....................................
The only debugging solution I have for your other wise excellent build.

1. remove all the magnets.

2. reorient the output magnets. 

Rotate them so that when the shield magnets pass between them,
it is centered along the LONG AXIS of those output magnets.
 

3. reorient the shield magnet, but also replace it with two magnets.

These would be stacked, on edge, one above the other (along their long axis sides).

A NORTH pole of the upper one facing (for example) LEFT.
A SOUTH pole of the underneath magnet should THEN also be facing LEFT.

The magnets will be attracted to each other, and stick together, when
assembled edge to edge like that.

During the insertion and removal of this shield magnet array, the line
where the two shield magnets meet each other (junction), should be
at the vertical center of the output magnets.  Which have now been
reoriented so that it is along their long axis that the shield magnet array
passes.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on August 02, 2019, 12:34:34 AM
Hi Floor,

Thanks for your reply.  I now understand where I went wrong with my build although I am still pleased with how it works.  I will be pretty tied up the next few days again but will be thinking how I can implement the changes you have suggested.  Thanks again for all your time and efforts in doing the research involved your study of magnets.

Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 02, 2019, 10:23:24 PM
@ citfta

              acknowledged
               
             

Here is a preview of my next build.  Same design as I recommended  to you,
but differing due to a use of 4 magnets in the outputs (2 each) and 4 magnets in the shield.

                https://dai.ly/x7f0i61

                      best wishes
                               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 02, 2019, 10:36:21 PM
A brief video by me that shows a method of imprinting multiple poles into a ceramic magnet.
                          @
           https://dai.ly/x7f0jpy

     floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 02, 2019, 11:25:34 PM
My own replication of a brute force neutralization of magnetic force as demonstrated by  the Tinman.

                    PART 1
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0md2

        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 02, 2019, 11:47:24 PM
My own replication of a brute force neutralization of magnetic force as demonstrated by  the Tinman.

                    PART 2
                        @
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0o4w

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 07, 2019, 09:48:30 PM
Floor's  balancing neutralization part 2 video.

                   https://dai.ly/x7ffco0

                             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 07, 2019, 10:01:02 PM
Restoring ceramic magnets, breif video.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7ffe07

               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 10, 2019, 10:53:33 PM
It is not problematic, If the output magnets have some attraction, when the shield
magnet array is in place.

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/173702/

  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 14, 2019, 09:18:24 PM
@citfta

During the video demonstration  @ https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

of the " MagForShld 1b.pdf"  @  https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/dlattach/attach/173835/

The Two magnets in the shielding position are glued together edge to edge.

They are in repulsion.

Note 1. One of  those ceramic shield magnets was considerably weaker than the other.  They did not shield well AT ALL, when
I reoriented/ flipped them top for bottom. 

I have since that time, done many repeats of those particular interactions, with well matched magnets in the shielding position, as well
as in the output magnet positions. I have had good results.  I have never mounted that configuration on track systems.

Note 2. notice (in the video x728wd9) that the shield magnet is not well centered (up and down).  This is why the shielding worked
only when oriented a certain way and not the other, one shield magnet extends beyond the tops of the fixed and output magnet.
I think that was the weaker of the two shield magnets ?

Note 3  given that your ceramic magnets are all from the same supplier / manufacturer, treating them with neo magnets can
equalize them nicely (video   @   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7ffe07  ).

         Thanks  for all your good work / experimentation.

                         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 15, 2019, 08:09:01 AM
An innovation by I don't know who. Some combination of
communications and miscomunications ?

             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on August 16, 2019, 04:56:29 PM
A short video of my progress so far.  I had hoped to get more done by now but other things keep coming up that need to be taken care of.  This video does show some proof of what Floor has been telling us in his videos and PDFs.

https://youtu.be/wHHVrQRby9A (https://youtu.be/wHHVrQRby9A)


Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 16, 2019, 08:28:41 PM
@ citfta

thanks for the latest update !

       floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 19, 2019, 10:07:41 PM
Hi CITFTA

I didn't notice any video of the       https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/172888/
version of the device.   

This is the design that I originally asked that you modify your misinterpretation / build into.  Did you do that mod. and then not present a
video of it ?

                  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 19, 2019, 10:38:33 PM
TO ALL READERS

          Just for clarity...

               Pleased as CITFTA has been with his builds / results and I would agree that they are pretty skilfully built.
               A nice innovation in the use of the glued down toothed belt as a rack gear and so on........
                            But once again.
              NOT A SINGLE ONE of the 3 videos CITFTA has present, is of a design which I had presented.

              Each video has some similarity to one of the designs, but IS NOT ONE OF THOSE DESIGNS.
             
              Not a single one of them is a correct representation of ANY of the designs I had presented.
                   
            What do you think the odds are of 3 misinterpretations in a row, like that.
           
            Bad run of luck for CITFTA I'd guess.  I agree with CITFTA's statement that he should maybe give
            his self a break from the builds for now.

                   best wishes

                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on August 19, 2019, 10:40:23 PM
Hi CITFTA

I didn't notice any video of the       https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/172888/ (https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/172888/)
version of the device.   

This is the design that I originally asked that you modify your misinterpretation / build into.  Did you do that mod. and then not present a
video of it ?

                  floor

Hi Floor,

No,  I have not done a build of the PDF device in your last post.  That will probably be my next design to test when I have finished testing the design I am working with now.  My wife is currently sick so I have some extra household duties for a while.  I want to test all the different designs you have made PDFs for.  Thanks again for all your efforts and being willing to share your results.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 19, 2019, 10:46:06 PM
At CITFTA

Hope your wife is better soon.


          floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 25, 2019, 05:37:15 PM
@CITFTA  All READERS

This is the cyber world, where so often people and things are not as they appear to be.

I have seen too many "replications" on the forum that were similar to, but not nearly identical
to a design as presented.

At a certain point (its been a while" I myself was asking for replication of some of the
"twist drive" interactions.   

Two different O.U. forum users, did some builds. 

One user, in particular spent a  GREAT DEAL OF TIME (weeks) AND ENERGY (several videos)
doing GREAT BUILDS and presenting results.  However, he opted to use neodymium magnets, and almost unbelievably......   for all that large amount of time, effort he gave and all the attention he drew to (actually away from ) the twist drive design...............

                                                              NEVER....
AT ANY POINT.... DID HE ACTUALLY DO A REPLICATION OF THE TWITS DRIVE NTERACTIONS. 

                                              Not once.  Not at all. 

He did however carry the topic away for those few months. It's dead now.
 
The other user presented 4 or 5 photos, some graphs and computer simulations, then concluded, that one could accomplish the same thing if using springs instead of magnets ?  GOOD LUCK WITH THAT !

The more recent topic, "Newtons magnets" was being dragged into directions / misinterpretations
innovations and so on, all during my repeated requests and inistance that that topic was for
a very narrow and specific point.  I received no response to those requests, nor any acknowledgments of them, by certain users.


Simultaneously, CITFTA you are presenting GREAT BUILDS, but not replications.
.........          ............         ............     ............
CITFTA, You seem like a nice person.  So did that other GREAT BUILD "replicator"

I hope you understand my concerns / point of view.  I am put into the position
of seeming to be disingenuous and ungrateful of the GREAT efforts this kindly older
gentleman (you) has enthusiastically given to these designs.

What do I expect ?  I expect of your most recent build...  it will fail to shield the output
magnet's repulsion.  Why ?  Because the shielding magnets are too weak and because they
are joined together, in a constant repulsion to one another, are only getting weaker by the day.

This is the cyber world, where so often people and things are not as they appear to be.

 best wishes
   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on August 30, 2019, 10:28:06 PM
          These videos demonstrate magnet interactions which are Over Unity

                                                    BUT ONLY WHEN
      EACH MOVEMENT IS COMPLETED BEFORE THE NEXT MOTION IS ALLOWED TO BEGIN.

                                 OUTPUT ACTIONS ARE LATCHED / PREVENTED
                                                                AND
         DO NOT OCCUR  UNTIL AFTER THE SHIELDING HAS BEEN COMPLETELY REMOVED.

                              THERE IS NO CONTINUOUS MOTION AND
                   ARE NO CONTINUOUS MOTIONS IN THESE ACTION SETS.
                   EACH MOTION ENDS BEFORE THE NEXT MOTION BEGINS.

video, titled "amazeing"  @
                                            https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q
video titled "shield # 2 actions" @
                                                   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ijgy1

                                         AND

video titled "Floor's balancing neutralization"  @
                                                                            https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0i61
                                                                                         

video titled "Floor's balancing neutralization 2"  @
                                                                               https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7ffco0
                                                                                       
                                        AND

video titled "magnetshield 1" @
                                                 https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on August 31, 2019, 11:02:23 AM
No over unity, no neutralization, and no shielding.artv 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on August 31, 2019, 01:55:09 PM
https://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae512.cfm

There is no passive way to shield against magnetic fields that would produce useable force from just magnet. Ask on quora.

This is extremely debunked, this forest has been razed to the ground, not a single shrub remains, I have observed since 2008.

Your video is lame.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You must now concentrate your life on the design rakarsky is saying about, Carl J LUTTMER.

He, Carl J LUTTMER, knew the secret, not you, you are misguided, forever lost, now you must enter in the light.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20267-motor-generators-13.html
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: alextecmen on September 01, 2019, 06:25:51 PM
interesting information, which shows the page ARMCORTEX
it is detailed that the lines of the magnetic field of the magnet should always end at its opposite pole, nature is like that, when I start a magnet through the center to separate the north pole from the south, of course, an N and a Yes, the dipole is recreated.
what can be redirected the field lines with certain materials that have greater magnetic permeability, would trap the magnetic lines and redirect it but would return to the opposite pole.

well where I wanted to go, is that there are materials that achieve this purpose well, one of them is the nu-metal, when I have done some tests, it is surprising to see that on the side where the nu-metal is you can put another magnet and there is no attraction effect with the magnet that is on the other side.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 01, 2019, 07:34:27 PM
The only thing that is interresting is the engine that Rakarsky is trying to build and the luttmer patents.

My first link is not that interresting, I am just not about to list the 100+ people on this site and thousand of man hours that Floor is trying to disprove.

If there was a way to get clever with these magnets by just moving them around I think we would have seen it, I have been observing since 2008.

Hype hype hype then deflate.... I have OU I have it.... Uhhh not I dont.

Let me explain how it works around here, quality people are rare, and there is alot of useless ASCI characters to scroll down.

So if you see somebody trying to prove something by moving around magnets with his hands, you can safely ignore him, but this is not the only criteria.

Ignore totally the following users, Nothing they say is important and is automatic scroll down: Floor, Cifta, and many many others...

There is many hints and clues on low/average intelligence and who to ignore... constant Bad punctuation, non-sensical rambling  to pose as something else, Zero proof of work, inexperience, ignorance, bad logic, speculation passed on as fact, being vague and not practical, "group think", overly joyful, abusive use of emoticons, etc...  Use these clues to better navitage the forums and estimate people's IQ. The goal is to extract knowledge that could be useful for a build, once you identify such knowledge, save it and organize it if possible.

I mix all of these and have become very fast and efficient reader, you can say that I have developped an "instinct".

Also, recognize that even with free energy the laws of economics always apply, only "BIG POWER" for small cost, has an impact on your life, choose your projects wisely, only power that can run many appliances, provide heat, is of any use. Chasing small things for the fun of it is a waste of time and money. For example... Milkovic pendulum, Joule thief, bedini... All the actions never payed for themselves in electrical saving even after successful. The only effort you should put, is into a finished and safe design that can be potentially placed in your basement and provide eletricity throughout the entire house.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on September 01, 2019, 10:56:45 PM
Is there any way to levitate a magnetic rotor?
I've been trying, but keeping it aligned has proven impossible so far.
The more fields you add, the more complex it becomes.
Floor is merely observing some of the various interactions.
I thank him for his work, but they are incomplete.
I've searched but found nothing yet.
artv
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: alextecmen on September 01, 2019, 11:14:26 PM
 author ARMCORTEX   "The only thing that is interesting is the engine that Rakarsky is trying to build and the luttmer patents."

regards
If Mr.’s   Rakarsky project is interesting, but he hasn’t done it, the creation of the nucleus didn’t come out, it means that it is not known if at the end of it he would have satisfactory results.
The important, interesting is trying, as well as many who show in this forum their projects and ideas, and their positive or negative advances, with their failures and successes.
There are already examples and tests of generators projects that worked.
Friend you have a message, check
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: alextecmen on September 03, 2019, 07:11:42 AM
Mr. Rakarsky's experience and knowledge
shows that he will have a successful luttmer patent project
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 03, 2019, 10:35:52 PM
https://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae512.cfm


This quote from the link you provide is correct, to the best of my knowledge.
"Magnetic fields (forces are caused by magnetic fields) cannot be blocked, no. That is, there is no such thing as a magnetic insulator."

Your misunderstanding of the methods I have presented is lame.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 03, 2019, 10:41:00 PM
........ .....
...... ..... ......
.... ....... .........
well where I wanted to go, is that there are materials that achieve this purpose well, one of them is the nu-metal, when I have done some tests, it is surprising to see that on the side where the nu-metal is you can put another magnet and there is no attraction effect with the magnet that is on the other side.

That kind of shielding is exactly what armcoretex apearantly thinks this topic is about, and it not effective.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 03, 2019, 11:55:25 PM
You still have not designed a complete motor, so I dont care about it.

This started in 2016, is there a complete design?

My time bro, please dont waste my time.




Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 04, 2019, 09:22:44 PM
Some revamped / reorganized files.


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 04, 2019, 09:25:55 PM
More files
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on September 04, 2019, 10:12:32 PM
Thank you Floor,

I have downloaded and saved all 6 of your new pdfs.  The second one is especially interesting to me.  I appreciate the amount of work you have been doing with your testing and analyzing of magnetic forces.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 05, 2019, 01:16:57 AM
Thank you Floor,

I have downloaded and saved all 6 of your new pdfs.  The second one is especially interesting to me.  I appreciate the amount of work you have been doing with your testing and analyzing of magnetic forces.

Take care,
Carroll

Its low IQ trash and useless waste of time.

Why Stephen didnt ban you and Floor I dont know.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 05, 2019, 02:29:34 AM
People such as yourselves should attempt replication of a superior machine.

https://overunity.com/18226/physicist-needed-will-this-self-loop/

Thats what you are good for, being extensions of my arms, untill Kapanadze comes and reveals the workings.

Once somebody with a bigger brain  than you and me comes and reveals something big like the Kapanadze flywheel engine, we will drop
my expensive machine. But untill then, this is the best "standard approach" machine that mechanical minded people should attempt. That is just basics of having a 90+ IQ.

Trust me Floor, you would have my support/help if I had good hope in your design. Its not about you, this is strictly business/professionnal. Your red/black magnets will never produce OU. There is no glitch in magnetism, no bug in the system, that will work your way, not the way you are doing it...

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on September 05, 2019, 09:45:59 PM
@ARMCORTEX
A flywheel just store energy. It's not OU.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 05, 2019, 09:53:31 PM
@ARMCORTEX
A flywheel just store energy. It's not OU.


Vidar

Your little jabs followed by radio silence are funny, as you keep on with your ridiculous rube goldberg machine, you are probably thinking in you brain that you have the answer for OU , ROFL...

Seriously, your machine makes me laugh...

Talking to people like you is like talking to a bug eyed autistic kid with ego issues who looks the other way and screams when things dont go his way. I understand that you like to build these things because its good for your mental health, kind of like people
who like to have a pet baby horse alongside them for emotionnal support.

Magnets cannot produce power either, if I am screwed then so are you.

But seriously, flywheels are much more interresting, they can provide imaginary source of power (reactive) and, can provide out large energy in near infitesimal time in a unidirectionnal fashion.

Magnets suck compared to flywheels, they could be good if they could de-materialize and re-materialize to provide pure impulses, sadly this is not star trek.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on September 08, 2019, 10:35:05 PM


ARMCORTEX said on Sept 05 2019

"Magnets cannot produce power"

Here are 3 cases that you need to take a seriously look at.


the Pendulum that swings 2 hrs past its dropped point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzK2XKQ-74


slider based on Butch Lafonte
https://overunity.com/14876/permanent-magnet-ou-machine-working-today/msg445616/#msg445616
mp4 annimation is here
https://overunity.com/14876/permanent-magnet-ou-machine-working-today/dlattach/attach/148504/

and also based on Butch Lafonte
 Power from repelling magnets
https://overunity.com/18288/power-from-repelling-magnets/msg537211/#msg537211


Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Low-Q on September 09, 2019, 11:20:07 AM
Your little jabs followed by radio silence are funny, as you keep on with your ridiculous rube goldberg machine, you are probably thinking in you brain that you have the answer for OU , ROFL...

Seriously, your machine makes me laugh...

Talking to people like you is like talking to a bug eyed autistic kid with ego issues who looks the other way and screams when things dont go his way. I understand that you like to build these things because its good for your mental health, kind of like people
who like to have a pet baby horse alongside them for emotionnal support.

Magnets cannot produce power either, if I am screwed then so are you.

But seriously, flywheels are much more interresting, they can provide imaginary source of power (reactive) and, can provide out large energy in near infitesimal time in a unidirectionnal fashion.

Magnets suck compared to flywheels, they could be good if they could de-materialize and re-materialize to provide pure impulses, sadly this is not star trek.
You are missing the point. Both magnets and flywheels sucks. None of them can produce energy. My own project is only done to examine the inner workings. Figuring out how the magnetic force behave when the belt rewinds as I turn the rotor. Trying to find where in this design the countertorque is produced. I have never claimed OU - none of my projects have that agenda or claim. It is one and only purpose: Learning. I am not a physicist, so my way of learning is practical experiments.
I am sure you learn alot if you start to build things. You will soon enough figure out that I'm right.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on September 11, 2019, 07:59:36 PM


A new video with some actual measurements.


https://youtu.be/68ChN24x_HU


Constructive comments are welcome.  But please note, if you are just a troll that never actually builds anything and only wants to bash what others are doing then don't waste your time posting as your post will be ignored.  However if you are an actual builder and tester like Floor and Norman and Vidar then your comments are welcome.


Thanks for watching,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 11, 2019, 08:18:24 PM
My building skills are 20 times better than your believe me.

I bash those that cramp the style of better researchers.

Such as you, and those you have named.

BTW, this video is a total waste of time, can you stop wasting people's time?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on September 11, 2019, 09:30:35 PM
Carroll I dispute what Armatex just said. Your video is right on but misses 1 thing. Work is
mass x distance not just force/pounds.

I like to use weights that drop or lift and it is very clear.
So I suggest
1. use a weight to set the device into neutral where it can be repelled in the next step.
2. unset so that it will push/repel away and measure that work.
3. measure how much work is done by the  push/repel away.

In my current device
1 = 1 unit of work oz or lbs x a given distance
2. = 1 unit
3. work out is 6 units of work
giving a net of 4 extra units. And if you cascade that 2 times it becomes 36 when
you take out the set/reset units.

Carroll thank you for making a quality and easy to understand video.
And you are right about no magnetic blocker but "disturbers/balancers" do exist  like Butch Lafonte made.

I suggest that you use the closer stronger repel force to get the most out. That is what I did
and then in Lafonte fashion you can put attraction at the other end so that you get a push/pull for the same movement.

My health recovery has really held me back. I only get about and hr of work done each day.
and it takes another hr to workup a good design.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on September 12, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
Hi Norman,


Thanks for your comments.  I understand what you are saying about force times distance.  In this case the distance is the same for the repelling force as it is for the reset force.  So they cancel each other as far as I can tell.  I do think this can be made into something that will run itself and I have some ideas for how to do that.  I also believe that the same configuration on the other end of the shielding bar could more than double the output.


As far as the silly comments from Armcortex,  you just have to consider the source.  Since he has never actually built anything his comments are worthless.  I doubt he could even build a cube with a whole box of Legos.


I am looking forward to your progress and I understand about the slow pace.  I also had heart problems a few years ago and could hardly even walk across the room without resting.  Fortunately my problem was solved with a pacemaker.  I can now work most of the day without problems.


Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on September 12, 2019, 01:12:45 PM
Carroll I commend you for your civility and commonsense.
And I wish you great success. We all need a better form of energy.
I really appreciate these forums where we can work together where the
sum of the parts can be greater than the parts separately.

The problem I struggle with now is two repelling magnet have
a dish shaped field of force such that when they are close they
are below the repel portion of the dish and will attract but
my linear version should take me were I need to go.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 12, 2019, 03:15:54 PM
No, no, no... Stop being stubbon, stop these squirmings.

Try this instead, its the only "standard aproach, easy to understand" approach that should be investigated, in my simulation the freewheel weight was never launched, it simply had a motor with  rpm and torque, no launch energy was provided. The wheels were all turning and pushing by using centrifugal force only.

No other situation, magnetic, mechanic or otherwise, will ever ever work.

https://overunity.com/18226/physicist-needed-will-this-self-loop/msg538953/#new

The rest, is all non standard, way over your head, we need a massive breakthrough from someboy else, like Rakarsky or something.

If a pulse method, can maintain a cohesive phase/frequency relationship, pulse can be turned into H.P, many HP, it will be size efficient.

Turn the input pushes of the swinging children into rotation force.

The discussion is over, I will let Rakarsky and Stivep educate you henceforth for other non-standard approach.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 12, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
Hi Norman,


Thanks for your comments.  I understand what you are saying about force times distance.  In this case the distance is the same for the repelling force as it is for the reset force.  So they cancel each other as far as I can tell.  I do think this can be made into something that will run itself and I have some ideas for how to do that.  .


Take care,
Carroll

No you dont, its all confused and probably will get exponentially complicated as you really uncover why it doesnt work then you start patching your little leaky boat in a storm, sorry in the end of the day it will not work.

I know, you know, everybody knows.

"I do think this can be made into something that will run itself and I have some ideas for how to do that."

No...You are confused and dazed, you have not even made up the basic structure of the idea, never mind the calculations.

This is standard approach, I have already presented the best of the standard approach.

Theres a ton of non standard patents to try, like the TPU and Kapanadze, these works with something else.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on September 12, 2019, 06:07:49 PM
ARMCORTEX  I will not waste my time getting into a verbal battle. My bench time is much more important and productive. I do my bench work and present the results.
I am very slow due to many activities and poor health.
I have seen many a good idea that had no measurements like the Milkovic pendulum.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 12, 2019, 11:25:18 PM
@Norman6538

Glad your feel better and hope your recovery continues well.

@Citfta Thanks for the interesting new video.

            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on September 13, 2019, 01:20:09 AM
No, no, no... Stop being stubbon, stop these squirmings.

Try this instead, its the only "standard aproach, easy to understand" approach that should be investigated, in my simulation the freewheel weight was never launched, it simply had a motor with  rpm and torque, no launch energy was provided. The wheels were all turning and pushing by using centrifugal force only.

No other situation, magnetic, mechanic or otherwise, will ever ever work.

https://overunity.com/18226/physicist-needed-will-this-self-loop/msg538953/#new (https://overunity.com/18226/physicist-needed-will-this-self-loop/msg538953/#new)

The rest, is all non standard, way over your head, we need a massive breakthrough from someboy else, like Rakarsky or something.

If a pulse method, can maintain a cohesive phase/frequency relationship, pulse can be turned into H.P, many HP, it will be size efficient.

Turn the input pushes of the swinging children into rotation force.

The discussion is over, I will let Rakarsky and Stivep educate you henceforth for other non-standard approach.

http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3039176&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en (http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3039176&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SmY868MVXyg (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SmY868MVXyg)

1 wheel, 2 coupled wheels,3 ....


1 Meter wheel, 2 Meter wheel, 3 ......  radius ~ lever arm to wheel center


10 magnets groups, 20 magnets group, 30 ......

FEMM- SIMULATION

Later improvement option : the coil envelopped iron core = "electro-magnet"  with capacitive winding and pulse power feedback  circuit


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 13, 2019, 06:29:31 PM
lancaIV, can you make sense and express yourself in a way that doesnt sound retarded?

Every post you make is somekind of unreadable format, you and Floor have in common.

Anyways, as to your assumptions,

You need to be system modeler in mathlab.

It must be computed, to be optimized, so this is high level knowledge. People with such skills are rare.

Nobody like that visits these sites.



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on September 14, 2019, 02:06:57 PM
But " virtual system modeler" are anymore rare :
physical model/ prototype in function 4d scanning/ digitizing and macro-/micronizing this model. !
Later directly to 3 d parts printer.

"Lab in an Eprom-chip" included " digital lab workers"
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 14, 2019, 07:19:47 PM
But " virtual system modeler" are anymore rare :
physical model/ prototype in function 4d scanning/ digitizing and macro-/micronizing this model. !
Later directly to 3 d parts printer.

"Lab in an Eprom-chip" included " digital lab workers"

Stop trying to sound mysterious.

Learn proper english and how to structure an argument or sentence that your reader can understand.

Even a non english speaker can do better than your gibberish.

Jackass Twat.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on September 15, 2019, 03:12:45 PM
August, 1982 : language school vacation in Torquay, part from the Torbay.

By the end from this vacation, back to home: Continental Europe , I had to go from uphill City part to dowwnhill,
to the local trainstation.During the way I met an old english Lady/woman and we hold small-talk.By the end from our walk and wishing good-bye she had been surprised to hear which nationality I am :She assumed by the conversation style that I would be english ( child).
So polite ! 8) .
During this vacation our class did a trip to London, our guesthouse near the Piccadilly station, by the next day there had been a greater event :called wedding day from a me directly unknown so called " Prince of Wales" Charles with a nice naive girl named Diana Spencer.
I did some pictures from the Buckingham Palace and the crowed in front and went then through the " human-free" streets in direction Scotland Yard.

15th of september ,2019 : Matosinhos/greater city beside Oporto :
supermarket Lidl : at my front a woman with a chase full of ware
She saw that I only had a package pants in my hands and offered me to go in front of her.She spokes her offer in the english language,in Portugal typical conversation is in portuguese !
my fast response  going in front with the bonmot : " Faster exit before the Brexit !"

During 3 minutes small-talk I noticed : she working as teacher for the " International School",being original from Hartfordshire/county in south of  England.A little concerned about the working conditions as later "E.U.- foreigner" but hoping for the special Britannia/Lusitania relationship !
She asked me ,after giving part of her personality :From which part of America I would come  !
I have had to correct her  opinion : I am German by " ius sanguis" = fathers nationality,my mother natural portuguese and I by " ius terranis" from Maroc/Morocco,natural borned( passive action ) in Casablanca/ North of Africa and actually resident in North-Portugal.

"Tagesspiegel"  translates with " daily mirror" :

real time adventure and life ,not by fake or irrational opinions and assumptions what I and/or floor ( in his own tread) can do and/or are doing in kind and method construction

Your actual attitude is " non grata"  !

In your writings is personality reflection  and social class membership view. !

1972,Farbwerke Hoechst -zu Oporto - Weihnachtsfeier in der Deutschen Schule( seinerzeit noch mit Schwimmbad : mein Bruder lernte " unpolite" :-[ das kalte Wasser in voller Kleidung schneller als Ihm lieb war

( reines "Versehen" meinerseits aber er stand  eben zu nah am Becken  ;D )
meine Schwestern erhielten als Geschenk 45 cm grosse Puppen, besondere Eigenart :ein Ring an einer Schnur, daran gezogen fragte die Puppe : Willst Du mit mir spielen  ?"
Mein forscher Wissensdurst brachte dann ,einige Jahre spaeter, eine kleine Plastik-Scheibe als Mini-Single zutage
musste erst aber einem nakisch dastehen.

An mir haengt kein Ring mit Schnur : aber Spiellust besteht immer. !

proper English - prosper English - ( Karl)  Popper English ( versus Adorno) - Popper( 80' New Wave Style) English
like Pop-art music group style ABC, Spandau Ballett

Can you do with the different generation members a well conversation, with substance and by facts and real argumentation, ARMCORTEX
 or is in ARMCORTEX the german " nomen et omen"- view :arm = poor   reich = rich

About CORTEX and pro/contra about this kind of treatment, Medizin/Medicine -Nobel prize awarded :
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B3nio_Egas_Moniz (https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B3nio_Egas_Moniz)


Happy new week and success in your real life
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ARMCORTEX on September 15, 2019, 05:48:07 PM
There you go again, building a wall of gibberish. I have no problems with you using drugs tho.

I am more in the class to build robots, give you your universal paycheck so you can use your little drugs and stay home, and GTFO of my sight and stop causing traffic dammnit. I am an extremely classy guy, I wish to gove everybody what they want.

I think this should be a good solution for Portugal. OU power plants, much drugs, much days off, free soccer TV, much Ronaldo murals, with robot nurses to wipe your ass, and robot doctors operated by german or french doctor.

Now that would be a good future to have for portugal, everybody will be happy, the engineers and inventors will love having free time, those driven people that wish to be doctors can still go to school.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on September 15, 2019, 07:09:41 PM
Oh,  I please for" pardon? "!
It has not been in August /1982 but in 29.07.1981 when Charles and Diana married each other.

So the vacation has not been 1982 but 1981. Times goes bye


"in the class to build robots" : fine " modern" hobby and with great future also as profession

AUTOMATION, this is needed also for the "overunity generator".
Self -learning software to observe the consumer his daily Wattpeak and Wattaverage need.

Day/week/month/year peak/average data sampling ( for this the society get the smartmeter and smartbus netgrid observation technology)



About drugs ab-/use :
Shall we compare hair/inner organs cells probes  ?

Drugs as catalyzer are used for ac-/decelerating abnorm mental situations, by self-medication or by  medicals.

Some are trying to find their "lost luck" with them,  other are trying to escape from their familiar/economical reality  !
Exclusion from social norm : genetical disease

Why are for YOU " drugs" so important. ? Are YOU, alias ARMCORTEX,  consuming il-/legal drugs regular  ?

Your attitude ,alias ARMCORTEX, stays the same and from my view : " non grata". !


floor, you can ever delete this " conflict conversation". ! I am only guest  !


Flywheel technology  : 
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=De&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=goeres&CPC=&IC= (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=De&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=goeres&CPC=&IC=)


To reply #321 the coil unwrapped magnetic groups  :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=20&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20071004&CC=DE&NR=102004020962A1&KC=A1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=20&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20071004&CC=DE&NR=102004020962A1&KC=A1#)


ARMCORTEX, "Radus boots" : for you un/- known. ?
Working with robots: EPROM, processor with internal software: for you un/-known. ? similar approach Intel MMX

https://reprap.org/wiki/RepRap (https://reprap.org/wiki/RepRap)   : un/- known. ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network)

In German : angewandte Kybernetik  ~ applied Kybernetik ( not all should be translated  ;) )


Actually one European Union project. :

https://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/99544/factsheet/en (https://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/99544/factsheet/en)

Dual use civil/military application :
https://www.google.com/search?q=bionic+machine&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m (https://www.google.com/search?q=bionic+machine&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m)

My father ( R. I. P.)  was student from this University  : work theme 1958 " Kybernetik"

https://www.ias.edu/von-neumann (https://www.ias.edu/von-neumann)

Fazit :

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-m&q=artificial+intelligence+versus+humans&oq=artificial+intelligence+versus+humans&aqs=heirloom-srp..0l3 (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-m&q=artificial+intelligence+versus+humans&oq=artificial+intelligence+versus+humans&aqs=heirloom-srp..0l3)
" ...,who will win? " 

                                                                      who shall win. ?
But let us go to the near future : 31. Oktober 2019 and " The Day After"  :Berkow : Order. !  Order. !
If the British payments of the 350 billions debts becomes stopped how have Standart&Poors, Moody's and Fitch  automatic to declare  ?How is Argentinia treated  ?
What the V2 did not reached PM Johnson probably arisc  !?
Automatic computer selling order. !
Milton&Bradley presents :  HMS LONDON SINKING

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: tak22 on September 15, 2019, 10:25:36 PM

Sou eu que uso o Google Translate porque não tenho conhecimentos de português.


O lancaIV vem contribuindo com este site há muitos anos e ele trouxe muitas coisas à minha atenção que eu nunca poderia ter encontrado sozinha.
Sua capacidade de obter informações valiosas sobre uma ampla variedade de tópicos é notável e muito apreciada. Ele vem até mim como uma espécie e
pessoa carinhosa com a intenção de ser útil e esperançosa.


Eu gostaria de poder dizer qualquer uma das opções acima sobre a ARMCORTEX.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on September 16, 2019, 12:33:19 AM
Wow, that got off on a weird tangent.
Cifta, You didn't measure the work used for sliding the"control"magnet into place.
Also you should see the amount of force created with the removal of the control magnet,
on the stack that's not being shielded.(the slider)
artv
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on September 16, 2019, 01:48:16 AM
Hi artv,


You are correct I did not measure the force required to move the shielding magnet back into the shielding position.  I over looked that measurement.  But I am pretty sure it is almost the same as the force required to remove it from between the magnets.  I am going by the feel of it from the many times I have inserted and removed that magnet.


I am not sure what you mean about not measuring the force of the sliding magnet.  I made several measurements of the force required to move it up to the shield magnet and the force required to move it the same distance without the shield magnet.  The difference in force required between those two situations is what I think makes this an interesting study.  The force that will be applied to the sliding magnet when the shield magnet is removed is going to be the same as the force shown when pulling the slide into the same position it would be when the shield magnet is in place.


In other words the force that will be applied to the slide when the shield magnet is removed is about 5 to 6 times the force needed to get it back into that position because of the neutralizing effect of the shield magnet which really should be called a force balancing magnet as like I said in the video it really isn't a shield.  But calling it a shield magnet is just more convenient and probably helps people understand its function better.


Thanks for your comments,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 23, 2019, 11:54:56 PM
@ Lanka TV

QUOTE from Lanka TV   "floor, you can ever delete this " conflict conversation". ! I am only guest  !
"END QUOTE

No worries Lanka TV.  We all get caught up in some troll's baiting once in a while. Your posts are very welcome on my topics.

Been very busy
   best wishes
               floor



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Raycathode on September 29, 2019, 09:59:06 AM
Hi you guys I found this on Youtube thought you might find this video interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2DASGBEHws
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on September 30, 2019, 04:39:38 PM
@raycathode

Over unity from momentum ?

                    No.

Magnets can't fix or change that fact.

                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 02, 2019, 05:46:50 PM
I think citfta did it.

I don't know the importance of Floor, citfta started to make what Floor had written, but the device that he measured was his own design. I don't know how much came from Floor, but i think also something, as also may be something from others here.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on October 02, 2019, 06:58:43 PM
ayeaye,


Builder and tester "floor" has spent many many hours working with  the interactions of magnets.  He has included many PDF documents in this and his other thread.  He has also posted many videos of his work.  I only tried to apply what I have learned from his PDFs and videos.  If you want to learn a lot about interactions of magnets please take the time to read both of floor's threads and watch his videos and read his PDFs.


Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 02, 2019, 07:13:58 PM
#333 : I think that this "NO! " is classical Physics view related,

Quantummechanically : Quantumelectrodynamique + Quantumchromodynamique. : ' Think/Say never : " NO! "  !'

tempus, locus : in-/ syn-chronisity. ? Wormhole-theory. ?

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fm.spiegel.de%2Fwissenschaft%2Ftechnik%2Fphysiker-melden-neuen-quantenrekord-2000-atome-an-zwei-orten-a-1289502.html


Object. ( virtual)  INTERFACE Human
Subject ( virtual)  INTERFACE Human

Object INTERFACE Subject
Subject INTERFACE Object

                   physical " moment " : external or internal impulse ,actio/reactio angle as ° and direction ?

                 movement : not communication ? attraction !?  rejection !?   resistere / sistere

                                     center/ nucleus/core      near/er             far/er


F.e. : a 2 in x 2 in x 2 in N52 Neodym "supermagnet" becomes cutted into 500 0,1 mm thin film plates/foils andthese enroling to tubes :  + / positive pole  and - / negative pole per side

these tube(s) now enroling to a donut : plus/ minus pole  ? outside/inside polarisation. ?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 02, 2019, 07:40:40 PM
citfta,

I have also spent many hours working with interaction of magnets and with the theory of overunity about the magnetic fields and also in solid state devices, also posted this and my videos here. I show here only my this drawing  https://ia800903.us.archive.org/22/items/Flcm4/pmmbp12.jpg . This shows how the asymmetry of the magnetic field (two poles) can enable overunity. In theory any asymmetric field can do continuous work, this is one way how a magnetic field can do it. I'm sure that the effect that you showed is based on the same asymmetry. I have not thoroughly analyzed your case, but i showed the theoretical reason in the simplest case, involving only two magnets.

I read the Floor's pdf-s, they were very long and seem to contain a lot of useless information. I maybe couldn't find the essence in them that made you to do your experiment, but i likely didn't read them thoroughly.

But you hit the nail, the matter is that you did hit the nail, not Floor or anyone else, though the contributions of others are certainly important.

I see that this is important not only about the magnets, but for the theory of overunity in general. More work should be done on that theory. Because i see that the reason for overunity is always the same, it is that the electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom don't fall to the nucleus, even when they do work. No matter whether the device is magnetic, solid state, or even mechanical. I also explained the reason why for that reason the energy may come from the zero point and go back to zero point. Every time a field does work, even when you drop an object and it falls to the floor.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 04, 2019, 05:11:32 PM
This is the diagram of the citfta experiment, see the citfta'a las video with measurements. The diagram was made with dia.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on October 05, 2019, 01:18:05 AM
I have been doing a lot of testing of an idea Floor presented in this PDF: 2 Mirror Engine.


I have attached a copy of it to this post.


I believe from my testing this idea may be the most important idea so far presented by Floor.


I highly suggest you study it carefully.  Especially the section about the thickness of the metal between the opposing magnets.


Respectfully,
Carroll




Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 05, 2019, 04:40:01 PM
This shield magnet has to be thin there, so that the left magnet could go near enough to the right magnet, for there to be enough repulsion. And it should be thick enough so that the repulsive force of the right magnet will not go through it. Exactly the right size, not much to play with.

It seems that by now, several experiments show a small amount of overunity on permanent magnets. This is seemingly not great though, and when making an actual continuously working device, it may not be even able to overcome friction.

Norman was right in that energy is force multiplied by distance. Thus the repulsive force should properly be measured after every small intervals, as it decreases very rapidly, then these forces multiplied by intervals should be added. Or when the speed by which the repulsive force decreases can be found, then this can be used to calculate energy from the maximum force.

Thus measuring only the maximum forces is not enough. I'm also sure that when these calculations are done, the overunity appears to be even smaller. Yet it seems convincing that there is some overunity.

Also very important that for the first time someone actually did measurements with permanent magnets. Though maybe not quite rightly done at first, these measurements are important, Because even when all looks convincing, only measurements and calculations show how it actually is. Like there is a force two times more, but when it then appears that the distances differ two times, then the actual overunity is zero in spite of this.

To convert it into newtons, 1 N = 0.10197 kg = 0.22481 pounds. Energy in joules is force in newtons, multiplied by distance in meters, 1 J = 1 N * 1 m .

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 07, 2019, 01:02:48 AM
citfta,

I'm sorry but, i did calculations based on what i could see in your video with measurements, and i found that your input energy was 1.76 times greater than the output energy. While this estimation is certainly not highly precise, i can say for sure that there was no overunity. The biggest problem was shifting the shield magnet, that took 139 mJ, this alone was more than the output energy.

Check that the calculations are correct, though they most likely are. I estimated that your two magnets were 50 x 50 x 20 mm, and the shield magnet was 50 x 50 x 10 mm.

Repulsion:
0 mm -- 1 pound 6 ounces = 623.68952 g = 6.11630483131 N
10 mm -- 13 ounces = 368.54376 g = 3.614179664 N
20 mm -- 8 ounces = 226.79616 g = 2.22411056246 N
30 mm -- 4 ounces = 113.39808 g = 1.11205528123 N

Calculating average values for each 10 mm segment, as perhaps the best approximation:
10 mm -- 4.86525 N
20 mm -- 2.91915 N
30 mm -- 1.66805 N

Output energy:
E = (4.86525 + 2.91915 + 1.66805) * 10 = 94.5245 mJ

Moving towards the shield magnet:
30 mm -- 3 ounces = 85.04856 g = 0.8340 N
20 mm -- 3 ounces = 85.04856 g = 0.8340 N
10 mm -- 4 ounces = 113.39808 g = 1.1120 N

Energy of moving towards the shield magnet:
E = (0.8340 + 0.8340 + 1.1120) * 10 = 27.7000 mJ

Force of shifting the shield magnet:
5 ounces = 141.7476 g = 1.39006910154 N

Energy of shifting the shield magnet two times, 50 * 2 = 100 mm:
E = 1.3900 * 100 = 139.0000 mJ

Input energy:
E = 139.000 + 27.700 = 166.700 mJ

Output energy:
E = 94.5245 mJ

It looks like that in theory it should work, as shifting the shield magnet should in theory need no force at all. But 1.39 N that it needs in practice, plus shifting it the total distance of 100 mm, results in practice in no energy gain at all.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on October 07, 2019, 03:02:46 AM
The problem I had with the magnet between 2 magnets is the geometry of closer stronger and further weaker. To get much power the magnet between had to have some thickness and that makes the two other magnets further/weaker. So I switched to metal between two repelling magnets. It will pull itself in and if that work done is saved it can be used to pull the metal back out and have an almost work free 1. set to do work 2. do work and 3. unset to repeat step 1. and the power geometry is closer stronger repel while the step 1. set to do work is also closer stronger and on 2 sides.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 07, 2019, 04:05:05 PM
These conversions, so one would not have to search for these constants.

1 pound is 16 ounces.

1 kg is 1000 g.

5 ounces = 5 * 28.34952 = 141.7476 g

141.7476 g = 141.7476 * 0.00980665 = 1.3900 N

Forces are measured in newtons (N), because newton is a unit of force. Ounce and g are units of weight, weight is a force caused by gravity.

When the distances are measured in millimeters, then by multiplying these by force, we get energy in mJ (milli joule, that is 1/1000 of joule).

The scale that was used in that video is called a fish scale, as it is likely mostly used for weighing fishes. They sell such scales in eBay for $5. But it is similar to scales used in physics experiments for measuring forces.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 08, 2019, 04:31:36 PM
The constant to convert ounces to newtons, is 0.27801382, or maybe 0.278 is precise enough, if this may be anyhow important, 1 pound is 16 ounces. Newtons are maybe closest to ounces.

The energy in milli joules is force in newtons multiplied by the distance in mm moved by that force. How fast it is moved is not important, only the distance and force are important for this.

Norman, yes, when an iron shield is attracted, then the energy for that should be considered an output, not input. Pulling an iron or even a mu metal shield out needs quite a lot of force though. Mu metal can be taken out from an old hard drive, at least this is how i got it.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Raycathode on October 13, 2019, 07:55:26 AM
A  working magnetic motor  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBtxjyD01lo
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on October 13, 2019, 01:27:02 PM
Sorry but it is not a working magnetic motor.  It has been investigated and it was found the electrical controlling system was contributing power into keep the machine running.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 13, 2019, 02:19:53 PM
"it has been investigated ":

What has been investigated  ?

" Magnetic force input / Magnetic force output " ratio. !?

"Magnetic force input + electromagnetic force input / Magnetic force output ". ratio.  !?

electro- magnetic controler :  " pure" DC, pulsed DC,AC ? Measurment method.  ?

electro-magnetic controler with-/ out. feedback circuit.  ?


When we see this JLN LAB demonstration as " repeatable fact" the " balance gain" by linear experiment. :

Using for " linear track"  (espacenet archiv William Putt )

or how "translate : " translatory." as one from the 3 physics freedom states " to rotatory :360° forward or backward movement. ?


http://jnaudin.online.fr/html/2magpup.htm (http://jnaudin.online.fr/html/2magpup.htm)

included Naudins link how probably with success to use this " repeatable fact". :
http://jnaudin.online.fr/html/mppprop.htm
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 13, 2019, 05:58:59 PM
Ok, then needs to be investigated, before taken seriously. This thread is also about measurements, i didn't see much measurements there.

What people often don't realize, is that overunity is about maximum efficiency, so it also often needs high precision. I also wrote this in another thread.

PS I estimated that when citfta could reduce the force of shifting the shield magnet to 2 ounces, then he may have overunity. To achieve that would likely be very difficult though, as he already uses linear movement on ball bearings. It looks like though that in spite the movement is on ball bearings, it takes quite a force to move a magnet there, even if no forces affect it. Like moving towards the shield magnet may not have any force at all, it is at least 3 ounces, as if it always requires 3 ounces to move a magnet there. I don't know. But even if he can reduce the shifting to 2 ounces, his scales would likely have not enough precision to show the overunity, as the final calculations error with the scales he used would likely be +/-1 ounce, not better. Unless he perhaps tests the scales and shows that they have a higher precision, that these scales very unlikely have.

One more thing. Measuring forces when moving towards the right magnet is correct, as what one needs to know is the force at various distances from the right magnet. But the forces at different distances should be measured when the left magnet stands still, because otherwise the force of friction would be added to the force, as if it were an output force, while it really is an input force.

As i said, the higher precision scales used in physics experiments similar to the ones citfta used, are called "force gauge", and they cost $50 and up.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 13, 2019, 08:11:25 PM
If One is so inclined, so as to accurately take measurements of the energy present in a
set of magnet interactions.

Don't take it lightly.

This can be an elaborate and time consuming process.

When poorly done, it is as bad as, or worse than no measurements at all.

                               floor

   see the PDF files attached
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 13, 2019, 08:33:15 PM
1.The presenter should video document the METHODS used
during the measuring process.

Because, there are so many ways to botch measurements... the presenter would be wise, to do a video which demonstrates the technique to be used for EACH action to be measured.....before the actual measurement sets are taken.  This will save the presenter, a lot of time and frustration.


2. Each measurement should be taken 5 or more times, and an averaged value,
then used in the calcs.


3. Write every measurement (in a chart which was prepared for that purpose).

    see example chart below
 
    a graph would be optional / nice
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on October 13, 2019, 08:47:25 PM
I recommend as well, that the experimenter, design / print out, a set of pages
just to write down the measurements on as they are taken .

5 measurements of each force applied and displacement that resulted.

as few as 5 or as many as 25 measurements per magnet action.

3 input actions and one output action to measure.

5 x 5 x 3 = 75 (3 Inputs) ?
                   and
5 x 25 (1 out put) = 75 = as maybe as many as 150 measurements total (typical).


              best wishes
                       floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 14, 2019, 12:17:39 AM
5 measurements, well that is. We need at least 5 measurements of the repelling output force. Better more, near the magnet where the force is the greatest, better to measure after every 2 mm, as the force changes the most there. Now, when we add the energies (work, work is energy) for all these small distances, the error increases. Taking average of several measurements, decreases the error. Depends also on the precision of the scales. Maybe as many measurements each time, as many distances we measure?

The magnetic force should decrease inverse of the distance in square. But in the reality it may differ, depends on the shape of the magnets, etc, so it cannot really be calculated, thus it should be measured after every small distances. Unless we perhaps see how it decelerates.

To do it with all the measurements, and to do it rightly, is really a great task by itself. Even when the actual device is the most simple.

And now we who only do here blah blah, don't do any experiments ourselves, only talk. One person does experiments, maybe two, several others do blah blah. I hope that i did more than talking though, that there has been some use of that which i wrote.

That is, when one does any measurements, then it at once enables many to talk, and find what was wrong, and whatever. It is though that, when one does no measurements, then such experiment should likely be rejected at once. When people talk, this means that the experiment was accepted, citfta did a great job.

The error calculation, when calculating the worst value, and then the best value, then the difference is the error. The problem is though that we need to add many energies at different distances, so if we calculate with the worst values in the scales error range, and then the best, the error will become very great, when we need to add many values. The matter is though, that when the forces are different, then the errors are likely more random, that is, they are not all to one side. Then it may be enough to calculate the error of the greatest energy, maximum value minus minimal value, and consider that to be the error of the whole calculation. In case of the citfta's experiment, if we consider the error of the scale 1 ounce, and even if we consider the maximum energy shifting the shield magnet 50 mm, then the calculation error will still be 28 mJ.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 14, 2019, 01:24:02 PM
So, ayeaye, we are only doing actually " blah blah " :

do you a. not  b. think that some of us did c. not their " home work" about
magnetic and electromagnetic force,energy,work,power in their past ?


http://www.victorcassar.com/ims.html (http://www.victorcassar.com/ims.html)
http://www.imsolution.com.au/fluxgraphs-entry.html (http://www.imsolution.com.au/fluxgraphs-entry.html)

JLN LAB "push & pull"- demonstration 1998. !
Permanent magnet force/ energy/ work "attraction/repulsion" potential distance related

compared
with exemplary electro-magnets :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19820817&CC=US&NR=4345174A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19820817&CC=US&NR=4345174A&KC=A#)

"....... The Operation of the inventive engine 10 wil now be decribed.  ..... "
2 x https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_battery (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_battery)  per electro-magnet = pure DC

By " pulsed DC" induction  !?

Electro-magnet with capacitive band-/foil- condenser winding and " pulsed DC" induction  !?

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20040226&CC=DE&NR=20317795U1&KC=U1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20040226&CC=DE&NR=20317795U1&KC=U1#)

Electro-magnet with capacitive coils-condenser winding and " pulsed DC" induction. !?

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Envez&IN=&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Envez&IN=&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search)


Rotoric electro-/permanent magnet wheel :
only 16.,17.18.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Oskar+becker&IN=Oskar+becker&CPC=&IC= (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Oskar+becker&IN=Oskar+becker&CPC=&IC=)

18.                         "  THE POWER REQUIREMENT.  ......... ONE ELECTROMAGNET.    "......
http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3826970&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en (http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3826970&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en)


Compare : http://maddsci.tripod.com/george/id10.html (http://maddsci.tripod.com/george/id10.html)
                   http://maddsci.tripod.com/george/id11.html (http://maddsci.tripod.com/george/id11.html).   " torque out for Watt in "  :)


 
I spoke with him more than an hour via phone,now 2019 : Keith Kenyon R.I.P.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=14&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19711005&CC=US&NR=3610974A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=14&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19711005&CC=US&NR=3610974A&KC=A#)

idem : now 2019: R.I.P.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20081118&CC=US&NR=7453341B1&KC=B1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20081118&CC=US&NR=7453341B1&KC=B1#)

William J.  Putt :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=William+putt&IN=&CPC=&IC= (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=William+putt&IN=&CPC=&IC=)

Horst von Heyer
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=Von+heyer&CPC=&IC= (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=Von+heyer&CPC=&IC=)

Some researcher are " old school" : copying and working with different colour pencils and doing abstracts to concrete  !
"Permanent magnets" have their advantages but also disadvantages as " power source"  !

Fixed or variable speed ( R.P.M. and torque in Nm ) output  linear or rotatoric motor concept !

I hope for you that their written " blahblah" helps by your own development. !
Electro-motor power density prediction : 40 KW/ Kg. !

Your "permanent magnet" power density prediction/target. ,ayeaye. !?

The Flynn brothers worked over 25 year to optimize their PPM concept. !
Working with patience and concentration and precision. !

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-m&q=parallel+path+flnn+research&oq=parallel+path+flnn+research&aqs=heirloom-srp (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-m&q=parallel+path+flnn+research&oq=parallel+path+flnn+research&aqs=heirloom-srp)..

https://studfiles.net/preview/8199619/page:2/ (https://studfiles.net/preview/8199619/page:2/)
"PAGE 10. Additional Observations : 

finite element analysis : real force conformity versus physical divergence = syntax error


Why they went back in their magnet material use : from Neodym to ferrit ceramic magnets.  ?

Ernie Esters : modular multi motors and/ or modular multi generator couple  on one shaft :

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=3&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19801111&CC=US&NR=4233532A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=3&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19801111&CC=US&NR=4233532A&KC=A#)



Sincerely
OCWL
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on October 14, 2019, 03:51:41 PM
why does not it work?
https://youtu.be/9WIUeWwjNBA (https://youtu.be/9WIUeWwjNBA)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 14, 2019, 07:04:55 PM
So, ayeaye, we are only doing actually " blah blah "

I prefer to do one thing.

I just actually wrote how to measure, the simplest way. I'm not an expert in measurements in mechanics of course, but i can do it the simplest way. And, there was a use of it, i did calculations that showed that citfta got no overunity, i hope there was a use of it for citfta, and others who do similar experiments.

Measuring many times, well, there are all standard deviations and things. Yes, i can calculate these too. But this is only like, when hand error caused different measurements. The greatest error there comes from the scales i think, and when measuring the same value many times with scales, the error may be systematic, that is, always the same. An error is more random with scales, when measuring different values. The real error of scales can be found like when weighing known weights, but for that there have to be several different weights, finding the greatest error. Partly because of the nature of scales, again, measuring only one value, even when doing that many times, does not do it more reliably.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 14, 2019, 08:40:05 PM
why does not it work?
https://youtu.be/9WIUeWwjNBA (https://youtu.be/9WIUeWwjNBA)

Because there is no overunity in that thing.

You may try to replicate my experiment instead  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 , if you have an old computer fan and an old CD. The drawing explaining why it should work  https://ia800903.us.archive.org/22/items/Flcm4/pmmbp12.jpg . Again, it depends on the shape of the field, it does not work in the Coulumb model, but a real magnetic field differs from that, and when it differs, it should work in theory. As i said, it should be replicated with measuring the peak force, and triggering not dependent on the hand movement. But even when there is overunity, it is likely not enough to overcome friction.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on October 15, 2019, 10:13:24 AM
I don't believe that drawing is correct.
I believe that the n and s in a magnet are isolated from each other.
An end on view ,the field curves around and terminates at the middle of the thickness, not at the other pole.
artv
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on October 15, 2019, 10:45:13 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjAQUkHuTn8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjAQUkHuTn8)
when the energy for pulling the stick is taken from the outside, (electricity, electromagnet) controlled by the hall sensor, the drum rotates.apparently, the energy from rotation and the energy for pulling a magnetic stick are equal.
dead end way?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 15, 2019, 10:56:25 AM
I don't believe that drawing is correct.
I believe that the n and s in a magnet are isolated from each other.
An end on view ,the field curves around and terminates at the middle of the thickness, not at the other pole.
artv

How to say, this drawing is really not a correct depiction of any magnetic field. It is just to show the concept. It doesn't work with the Coulomb model. Coulomb model is like both poles having a separate spherical, that is symmetric field. But a real magnetic field differs from the Coulomb model. And if the field lines are more parallel to the axis between the poles, then there may be enough asymmetry to enable overunity.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 15, 2019, 11:38:13 AM
How to say, this drawing is really not a correct depiction of any magnetic field. It is just to show the concept. It doesn't work with the Coulumb model. Coulumb model is like both poles having a separate spherical, that is symmetric field. But a real magnetic field differs from the Coulumb model. And if the field lines are more parallel to the axis between the poles, then there may be enough asymmetry to enable overunity.

ayeaye ,is a compass needle  movement for you " overunity" ? Peregrinus. !
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 15, 2019, 12:44:25 PM
ayeaye ,is a compass needle  movement for you " overunity" ?

I mean doing continuous work, this is what is mostly understood as overunity. Otherwise, dropping an object is likely overunity, the gravitational field does work to increase its speed, true? Then also a movement of a compass needle is overunity, the magnetic field does work, where the energy comes from? But in case of the compass needle the magnetic field doesn't do continuous work, so it's not overunity like it is mostly understood.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 15, 2019, 01:28:27 PM
I mean doing continuous work, this is what is mostly understood as overunity. Otherwise, dropping an object is likely overunity, the gravitational field does work to increase its speed, true? Then also a movement of a compass needle is overunity, the magnetic field does work, where the energy comes from? But in case of the compass needle the magnetic field doesn't do continuous work, so it's not overunity like it is mostly understood.
Is electricity stream by pulsed or alternating current " continuous work". ?
Is the permanent magnet quantum-magnetoelectric work to see like DC,pulsative or alternating  ?
Is a permanent magnet in absolute " continuous work" ,slow motion observation ?

What is the influence " over Curie - temperature" and/ or"lower Kelvin". ? Temperature/ magnetic field strengh ,Temperature/ magnetic flow

Instead 165 Watt only 33 Watt for same output as bicycle drive by same torque and rpm :

only" peakconsume/ inertia" to " average consume" harmonizing ?
https://patents.google.com/patent/DE3931611A1/de

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 15, 2019, 01:37:46 PM
Is electricity stream by pulsed or alternating current " continuous work". ?

No, there the field does not do continuous work, it works a limited time in one direction, this is also the reason why the current is alternating. These electromagnetic processes are very symmetric, it is a question how to break symmetry there.

PS Coulomb model, not Coulumb model, i fixed that before.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on October 15, 2019, 01:48:16 PM
https://www.apfelkiste.ch/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1000x/dbb748385a9a10925f0976de833f349b/n/e/neodym-magnet-kugel-puzzle-bunt_18_.jpg (https://www.apfelkiste.ch/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1000x/dbb748385a9a10925f0976de833f349b/n/e/neodym-magnet-kugel-puzzle-bunt_18_.jpg)

From round ( each individual symmetry) to quadratic(  = several body related asymmetry)

Has the electrostatic field and the magnetic field the same direction. ?https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=Wheel&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Donald+kelly&IN=Donald+kelly&CPC=&IC= (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=Wheel&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Donald+kelly&IN=Donald+kelly&CPC=&IC=)
From "compass/Earth" to Kelly's " magnetic torque multiplier" wheel. !
And the referring "citing documents" !
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 16, 2019, 12:18:34 AM
I think that citfta did a very important experiment, for the first time a permanent magnet device was measured. What the result will be, maybe nothing, just eroding a fixed ideas.

Floor, please understand, scales have some systematic error. Means measuring the same value several times may not increase precision. This systematic error is though mostly tied to the value, thus when measuring different values, the error can be considered to be random. Measuring the same force with several different scales, may  increase precision though, but the scales should then be preferably different types, so they don't have the same systematic error.

I said that in that case, the best may be to calculate the error of the greatest measured energy, and then consider that to be the error of the whole calculation. When this energy is significantly great. Like i think that citfta can safely consider the error of the energy of shifting the shield magnet, as the error of the final result of the calculation. That is likely the force of shifting multiplied by 100 mm in that case. This would be the error of the difference between the input and output energy. As this energy is the greatest and the most significant in his experiment. The other measured energies are all much smaller, and with a very high probability, their errors are not all to one direction.

Measuring that energy with fish scales though, would have a very great error. Such scales, as i asked from other people who have such scales, indeed have an error +/-1 ounce, thus like when it shows 5 ounces, it may also be 4 ounces or 6 ounces. Thus in that case of shifting the shield magnet, the measured force was 5 * 0.278 = 1.390 N, with the error +/-1 ounce, that is +/-0.278 N, that is the minimum and maximum values will be 1.112 N and 1.668 N. The energy of shifting will thus be 1.39 N * 100 mm = 139.0 mJ, with the minimum value 111.2 mJ, and the maximum value 166.8 mJ. The error of the difference between the input and output energies will then be 139.0 - 111.2 = +/-27.8 mJ, regardless of what the other measured energies will be.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 16, 2019, 12:13:17 PM
An end on view ,the field curves around and terminates at the middle of the thickness, not at the other pole.

Yes and this is a good thing, this makes it more to one direction.

How can i say it intuitively. The magnetic field is caused by electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom. The force is between these orbiting electrons, like one may think that it is between two circles, though they are kind of clouds. But nevertheless, this makes the force to be more in one direction, than in the Coulomb model. That is, for that reason the magnetic field differs from the poles being just a point charges, in that case it were symmetric, a spherical field is symmetric. As it is not entirely symmetric in that way, one could assume that it is asymmetric. And in theory an asymmetric field should be able to do continuous work.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on October 18, 2019, 11:35:06 AM
Ayeaye,




Would you PLEASE do some basic research before posting.  You have made many posts in this and the other threads about magnetic interactions that show you have not taken the time to do any real research.  I don't mean setting up a big lab with a lot of expensive equipment.  I mean that you should at least take the time to read all of a thread before posting.  It is just not polite to read a couple of posts and then jump in with comments.


I say this because of some comments you have made in your posts.  If you had read ALL of the posts in this and the other threads you would have seen the other videos I have posted.  If you had seen them you would have seen how I mounted the aluminum rails so they could move freely. And you would have seen how many bearings were on each rail.,


If you had actually read all of Norman't posts in his thread you would have seen references to what he is doing and would understand his picture he posted.


If you would take the time to actually get some magnets and work with them you would soon realize your idea of free energy from a magnet will probably not work.  My work and others seem to show that your sketch of magnetic forces does not seem to be supported by real world testing.


I mean no disrespect but hope you will realize that making comments about others without taking the time to really understand what they are doing is not a good way to build a relationship with them.


Respectfully,
Carroll

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 18, 2019, 02:09:28 PM
If you had seen them you would have seen how I mounted the aluminum rails so they could move freely. And you would have seen how many bearings were on each rail.,

No, i only watched your video with measurements, i have not watched your other videos.

> If you would take the time to actually get some magnets and work with them you would soon realize your idea of free energy from a magnet will probably not work.  My work and others seem to show that your sketch of magnetic forces does not seem to be supported by real world testing.

Well, if you now did watch my video that i posted together with that drawing, then you did see that i did an experiment, that also showed overunity, that though couldn't overcome friction, and it was not completely independent of the hand movement. That is, something that everyone can try oneself, but not that a video only can show. But if you come up with that argument, you had to first see my video.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on October 19, 2019, 02:18:18 AM
I watched your video, and the ones after that too.
There's no overunity there.
Just a circular V-gate.
The problem you had with the spot where the magnet wouldn't align,
Is where the field terminates.
artv
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 19, 2019, 03:08:36 AM
Just a circular V-gate.
The problem you had with the spot where the magnet wouldn't align,
Is where the field terminates.

No, it is not V-gate, the magnets are at equal distance from the edge of the disk. One thing that can be certainly said, is that it is not V-gate.

Now it was meant to be, that the force near the peak of the first magnet, is equal when moving in both directions. That it is equal, can only be felt by hand in that design. Yet one can feel that the forces really are equal, when doing it oneself. Both are as close to the peak of the force, as possible, and i did all i could to move it as close to the peak of force both times, as ever possible. I also tried it several times, and found that it was so several times, whatever can be the error of the hand, it is not the same several times.

Now considering that the forces in both direction were equal, it moved two times more by the chain of magnets, than in the opposite direction. And the chain of magnets was not V-gate. This indicates overunity.

In theory it should rotate continuously, having such chain of magnets. But it doesn't, because the overunity is not greater than friction.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on October 19, 2019, 01:56:25 PM
https://youtu.be/VccPX8Dq6yo (https://youtu.be/VccPX8Dq6yo)
it doesn’t rotate either. This is what I myself came up with. :)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 20, 2019, 04:34:54 AM
Citfta, you think, but do you let me to think?

What to think, is just in general, what do we deal with?

Both your and my experiments are about overunity due to asymmetry of the magnetic field, that is caused by it having two poles.

I think the force when shifting the shield magnet in your experiment is only friction, as it seems to remain constant during all shifting.

In that case it can be considered that your experiment did show overunity, and the measurement also showed it, but again the overunity that cannot overcome friction. And it may be said that my experiment did the same.

Now if true, there are two ways to overcome this. Decrease friction, or increase overunity. In my case for the latter, like maybe the shape of the field can be changed by adding some shielding to every magnet, so that the propulsion would increase. I'm not completely sure about that.

But friction, it cannot be infinitely decreased, and it is greater, the greater are the forces causing it. So it may be a problem that cannot be overcome, better ball bearings may not help.

But it is extremely important to understand and find out what we deal with. No overunity, or overunity that cannot overcome friction. There is a huge difference between the two.

In the latter case we really found overunity, and we showed that in an experiment. Which i think could been the case in my experiment. You maybe have to find out more whether it also could be the case in your experiment. Congratulation then, then you really did show overunity.

Just to see the difference between overunity that cannot overcome friction, and the experiments like these which kolbacict just did, like V-gate. This has no overunity in theory, and also the experiments don't show any overunity. So there is a great difference, the former can be called overunity experiments, and the latter only permanent magnet experiments, playing with magnets.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 24, 2019, 04:03:23 AM
The Citfta's experiment with the shield magnet, also has no overunity in the Coulomb model, that is when the poles are considered to be point charges. Correct me if i'm wrong. The attraction and repulsion of the shield magnet will then always be equal for both the left and right magnets, but the repulsion between them will remain the same no matter whether the shield magnet is in between or not. That is by the Coulomb model, it is as if the shield magnet were not there, its effect is zero and it does no shielding.

Thus when there is any overunity in that device, even disregarding friction, that the Citfta's experiment seems to show, then it is again due to the real magnetic fields differing from the Coulomb model. That is again, when there is asymmetry in the magnetic field. In the Coulomb model the fields of the poles are spherical, that is symmetric, and maybe then it can also be said that the magnetic field is symmetric. But real magnetic fields differ from the Coulomb model, and thus may be asymmetric.

The asymmetry of the magnetic field may be seen as fields of the poles not being spherical or such, any difference from the Coulomb model, where both poles are considered to be separate spherical fields. And the distribution of the field strength may also differ due to interaction.

My another two cents.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on October 25, 2019, 10:56:33 AM
That said, i think Citfta's and my experiments should be simulated with FEMM. FEM using Maxwell equations may show the kind of asymmetry that i talked about, and thus maybe also overunity. Some say that some simulations of permanent magnet devices have showed overunity, though they were not physically made showing overunity. Maybe the reason was friction again, i have not studied these cases. FEMM is not very difficult to use as a software, they sure tried to make it as easy to use as possible. But going into the simulation requires certain work of course. FEMM is in Windows though, and i use Linux. And i don't have enough time for such work. Interesting though, neither experiments show overunity by the Coulomb model, do they do by the Maxwell equations.

I think that this is all i can say by now. What i want to say is that the reason for overunity may be a certain asymmetry of the magnetic field, in that when a pole is seen as a point, the field near it is not completely spherical, or not always completely spherical. Different from the Coulomb model where the field around a pole is always perfectly spherical. This is a kind of asymmetry that one cannot easily see. Say we draw a line between the two poles of a magnet, and other line crossing that line perpendicularly in the middle. The field is symmetric at the both sides of the first line, and at the both sides of the second line, a perfect four sector symmetry. Yet it still may be asymmetric in another way, in that the field near a pole may not always be completely spherical.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on November 05, 2019, 06:41:22 PM
The rest is in that thread  https://overunity.com/18288/power-from-repelling-magnets/60/  look at it, please do.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 22, 2019, 10:28:14 PM
@ayeaye


Not based upon the same idea.

What I have been working on, is in some ways much simpler.

Watch these (my) videos linked below, and you my come to understand the methods.

https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/msg538553/#msg538553

        Best wishes
              floor

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on November 23, 2019, 12:35:59 AM
Not based upon the same idea.

What I have been working on, is in some ways much simpler.

I explained that even the shield magnet that Citfta used, cannot work by the Coulomb model, some asymmetry of the field is necessary for that to work too. By asymmetry i mean difference from the Coulomb model.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on November 23, 2019, 10:31:03 AM
But such magnets fit as banana-shaped?
used in such motors.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on November 23, 2019, 03:27:24 PM
But such magnets fit as banana-shaped?

I don't know, the shape not necessarily increases asymmetry. But you may try, see the field of these magnets with iron filings. If you have an irregular shape magnet, cut a hole in the paper the shape of that magnet, put the paper at the proper height. Then you see the field lines on a certain plane, with iron filings.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on November 23, 2019, 06:03:00 PM
Floor, you and Citfta continue your work, and i would say the measurements show overunity. But this magnetic shield device has an even greater problem of friction, moving the shield magnet forth and back is moving a long distance, and in spite it looks very little friction, when measured, it may be more than the positive energy. And, it is very difficult to make a continuously moving device based on that, and when done, this would add friction even much more. Your linearly moving device on ball bearings is also difficult to make, my device requires only one ball bearing, which currently is one of the computer fan.

But we deal with the same, consider that, that's all due to the asymmetry of the magnetic field.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on November 23, 2019, 10:46:23 PM
Ayeaye mentioned the long distance and that is exactly what I have found to be the biggest reason for efficiency less than 200%-300% because distance is a factor of the work out equation. While offline I made a list of my attempts and why they failed and distance was most frequent.

My wife had a long and successful surgery but I'm still dizzy and have to go to bed for several hours to get going some days but through all of this I have never fallen and some parts of the day are functional enough to get something small done like move the grass.

I have plans to resume my work any day unless we are able to travel for Thanksgiving for 6 days with family. I will use a variable lever/compensator to balance/compensate for the non linear attraction of the metal to repelling magnets to also compensate for the longer distance that the metal has to travel like Floor's machine.

I have felt for some time that a combination of the right things will made OU happen. The Finsrud device is an example of that with the ball and magnet and pendulum and gravity pushing the magnet down and kicking the pendulum.

I drool when I see Floor's precision device.

Peace to all. Life is not the same after you have been through serious medical trials.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on November 25, 2019, 12:16:49 AM
See the figure below, how can the shield magnet shield by the Coulomb model? By the Coulomb model a magnet is just two poles, both with a perfectly spherical field. And this is the only model that is symmetric. Say that the vertical N-S there is the shield magnet. You see that by that model there is nothing in between the north poles of two magnets, thus no shielding. When there is shielding, and evidently there is, then the fields must be somehow asymmetric, that is the fields of the poles must be different from spherical.

Ah, i'm sorry, this was not the shield magnet, the Citfta's was like this, was it?

S            S
     N  S
N            N

Anyway, you get an idea, in the Coulomb model there is nothing in between the repelling poles.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on November 25, 2019, 01:34:20 PM
Here you go. the magnet is under the plate in the same position as the second row.
Only I still do not understand anything.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on November 25, 2019, 09:12:54 PM
Here you go. the magnet is under the plate in the same position as the second row.

On the figure 2, the poles of your magnet are up and down? If so, you have some asymmetry at the upper end there, see the field is stronger at the sides, and there are less field lines at the center, that go up.

This banana shape on figure 1 may also provide field lines more close together at the right side, than at the left side, but you use there too much iron filings, for it to be seen.

Try with something, a small iron object. You may feel that it attracts more where the field lines are more closer together, than where they are not.

All i can say. Really any shape provides some asymmetry, that is difference from spherical. Like rectangle, at its corners the field lines are more apart, different from spherical where they should all go radially from the center of the pole, with equal distances between them.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on November 25, 2019, 09:56:56 PM
In figure 2 the poles are the faces of the magnet.  In other words north is either the right curved face or the left curved face.  And of course the opposite pole is the other face.  I have many of those magnets from small DC motors.  The poles are not on the ends.  I just verified this with a compass.  For a few dollars you can buy a compass and then you don't have to keep guessing where the poles are.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on November 26, 2019, 03:41:21 AM
Only I still do not understand anything.

The matter is, no one really understands, and this is the beauty of it.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on November 26, 2019, 06:50:13 AM
See the figure below, how can the shield magnet shield by the Coulomb model? By the Coulomb model a magnet is just two poles, both with a perfectly spherical field. And this is the only model that is symmetric. Say that the vertical N-S there is the shield magnet. You see that by that model there is nothing in between the north poles of two magnets, thus no shielding. When there is shielding, and evidently there is, then the fields must be somehow asymmetric, that is the fields of the poles must be different from spherical.

Ah, i'm sorry, this was not the shield magnet, the Citfta's was like this, was it?

S            S
     N  S
N            N

Anyway, you get an idea, in the Coulomb model there is nothing in between the repelling poles.


Coulomb only applies to the magnetic vector of the electric field.
Not the ferromagnetic field
Atomically, and molecularly, there are discrete energy states which can persist
outside of the spherical model.
Most commonly, a permanent magnet takes on the field shape of 2 inverted muffins
the center having no magnetic field at all, and almost always one “muffin top” larger than the other.


This natural asymmetry is independent from the phenomenon of S pulling more and N pushing more
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on November 26, 2019, 07:00:51 AM
Coulomb only applies to the magnetic vector of the electric field.
Not the ferromagnetic field

Right but, the Coulomb model is sometimes also used for magnetic fields, for simplified calculations. Why is that important, is that the Coulomb model is the only model that is completely symmetric. Thus, when anything differs from the Coulomb model, the field may be said to be asymmetric.

The real magnetic field differs from the Coulomb model, and thus isn't completely symmetric.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on November 26, 2019, 09:09:47 AM
Quote
On the figure 2, the poles of your magnet are up and down?
sharp ends up.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Freepowerworldpeace69 on November 26, 2019, 09:32:57 AM
Hi my dad mailed me these blueprints and said he's figured it out for Perpetual Energy  free energy . He said he has the rest of the model blueprints but to put these out there and see if anyone could I guess help out with materials which he's built one before. But lmao also been in an out of jail since he did and being held repeatedly on bogus charges and trying to make him claim incompetent to stand trial because of all the civil Rights shit he's filed against the county he's being held in. I know all sounds kinda crazy but maybe not can anyone read these and see if he's onto something. 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on November 26, 2019, 08:32:03 PM
sharp ends up.

The poles of your magnet are both of the curved surfaces, as Citfta said.

I don't have a compass, but i made it myself, by magnetizing a paperclip, and hanging it from a thread. But you can use another magnet with known poles, to see where it attracts, to find poles.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on November 27, 2019, 08:14:03 PM
Hi Norman

It's good to see you are recovering well.

      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Toolofcortex on November 28, 2019, 07:17:06 AM
He is tired, like this thread.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on November 28, 2019, 03:43:08 PM
Ok, this image here too, on figure 1, that i posted in another thread. The object there may be any iron object.

The mu metal takes the field lines inside itself. Most of the field lines that come out of the pole there, they will be bent, and come out from the edge of the mu metal. Interesting how this shielding works, it bends fields.

Interesting if instead of an iron object there, we would have a pole of another magnet, similarly shielded, like on the figure 2, would this increase the asymmetry even more? I mean, the shields may be long, so the magnets don't even interact, only the edges of the shields do.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 09, 2019, 10:31:36 PM
@ aye aye

Why don't you do a topic to put up your ideas on ?



                                                   Newton's magnets
                                              Equal and opposite forces.

It requires the same energy expenditure to pull two magnets in attraction apart,
as those magnets delivered during their attraction to each other.
                     But also
Because Newtons laws are valid, and because of the  two pole nature of permanent magnets...........

We can change the positions of two magnets, which are in close proximity to one another,
without doing work against the magnetic forces between those  magnets.  To see an example of this illustrated,  open the PDF attached below.


1.  To see Newton's magnets actually done, watch this video, titled "amazeing"  @
                                                                                                                              https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

2. or this variation of the Newton's magnets, watch this video, titled "RtAngSld"   @
                                                                                                                              https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978                         

3. or to see a completely different method of neutralizing magnet force as in this video, titled "TDForceDiagramed"
                           at 2 minutes and 50 seconds into the video watch               
                                                                                                           @   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d

4. or watch this video titled "direct approach"  @
                                                                        https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xgiez

5. or this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 1"  @
                                                                                                             https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0md2

6. or  this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 2"  @
                                                                                                   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0o4w

   
                                   SEE THIS PDF BELOW
https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/dlattach/attach/171711/

   best wishes
            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 10, 2019, 03:23:27 AM
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

I suspect that what you and Citfta show, is just an ordinary shielding. Magnets made of iron certainly also work as shields. Other magnets, depends on what exactly are they made of, even ceramic magnets can work as shields. If so, all this intricate interaction of poles, etc, is just unnecessary. What it's basically about is just putting a shield between two magnets, certainly the magnet that repelled before, then will not, rather it attracts to the shield. And no overunity or anything in it.

This is of course my opinion. I thought how such experiments look like in the Coulomb model, and i found that in that model one magnet cannot shield another. And then i though, wait a minute, does it happen in these experiments either, or is it just an ordinary shield between two magnets. If you disagree, you should show that the shield magnet there doesn't work as an ordinary shield.

Analytical thinking.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on December 11, 2019, 02:56:30 PM
The bottom is round, a magnet with four poles. From Capstan.From VCR.
https://youtu.be/puMoBd2cF10 (https://youtu.be/puMoBd2cF10)
banano magnets from the brush motor. What am I doing wrong?
Nothing happens...
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 11, 2019, 07:54:39 PM
What am I doing wrong?
Nothing happens...

What are you trying to do? Your magnets are in some strong magnetic field, they stop in the neutral position, this is what supposed to happen. What do you expect?

You may get some better magnets. Can you get an old hard drive? You can get from there mu metal and a strong neodymium magnet. Neodymium magnets can also be cut, they are covered by chrome or whatever it is, but they are soft inside. What the result of such cutting is, i don't know though.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 11, 2019, 11:07:56 PM
kolbacict  / ayeaye

Looks to me as if you guys have not a clue.

I'm guessing that you guys are what ... maybe 13 or 14 years old ?

Guess what .

 "ideas" don't merit posting just because they popped into your head.

There needs to be,  some reasons / logic / knowledge base,  that gave them birth.

Those reasons should be presented along with the idea.

There should be good explanations given of both,  the idea and the reasoning,  that leads you think
that it will / might work.

       Such as

       what its supposed to do

       how it does this

       and

       why it works or could / should work
 
I have sat back and watched this for many weeks now, just to see if you
might have anything legitimate to contribute.   Both of you are batting less than a zero.

You're spitting out what amounts to gibberish...

Take it some where else.

Put up a topic of your own to post that crap on ?

                  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 11, 2019, 11:12:16 PM
@ all reasoning and  thinking readers

                                                Newton's magnets
                                              Equal and opposite forces.

It requires the same energy expenditure to pull two magnets in attraction apart,
as those magnets delivered during their attraction to each other.
                     But also
Because Newtons laws are valid, and because of the  two pole nature of permanent magnets...........

We can change the positions of two magnets, which are in close proximity to one another,
without doing work against the magnetic forces between those  magnets.  To see an example of this illustrated,  open the PDF attached below.


1.  To see Newton's magnets actually done, watch this video, titled "amazeing"  @
                                                                                                                              https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

2. or this variation of the Newton's magnets, watch this video, titled "RtAngSld"   @
                                                                                                                              https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978                         

3. or to see a completely different method of neutralizing magnet force as in this video, titled "TDForceDiagramed"
                           at 2 minutes and 50 seconds into the video watch               
                                                                                                           @   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d

4. or watch this video titled "direct approach"  @
                                                                        https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xgiez

5. or this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 1"  @
                                                                                                             https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0md2

6. or  this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 2"  @
                                                                                                   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0o4w

   
                                   SEE THIS PDF BELOW
https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/dlattach/attach/171711/

   best wishes
            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 12, 2019, 01:41:25 AM
You're spitting out what amounts to gibberish...

End projecting please, read yourself what you wrote, and proceed from that.

I understand the disappointment, maybe finding that what you do is not really overunity, after you likely spent a lot of time and effort for that. Nothing to do, even when wanting to do all good for you. This is what the research is, sometimes it ends in failure, sometimes we do wrong things, both you and me and we all. It is keeping to do research, this matters, and it results in finding things once. Do it like Faraday, find out how nature works. Why not use your excellent magnet bench for some real research.

What concerns how old we are, i can say. I am not young at all, and i find nothing good in that. Kolbacict i think may be young, but what then, do you want to discourage him? "Where seldom is heard, A discouraging word, And the skies are not cloudy, All day", nice song, isn't it?

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 12, 2019, 03:42:47 AM
When I first learned about magnets, the powers that be summed it all up
Into 3 short paragraphs.


Experimenting outside the realm of academics
and sharing with other magneticians
I have learned enough to fill several books.


Never stop experimenting.
If magnets interest you, do whatever comes to your mind.
Because we, as humans, know very little about magnets.
and what we think we know only holds true “most of the time”.



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 12, 2019, 04:10:37 AM
Magnets, this is really about this thing, atom, something extremely complicated. How much do we really know about that thing?

(The image below is from that video, Creative Commons  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Atomic_orbitals_and_periodic_table_construction.ogv )

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 12, 2019, 04:46:11 AM
The red is a computer generated rendition of the probability cloud.
An impenetrable zone of ‘strong force’, where we think the electron has
a high probability of occurring.


Beyond that we have isolated an ionized proton
but still cannot peek inside.
Is it even there? Is it pure energy like an electron?
can we use it the same way we use electrons?
Math says yes.
Science has yet to learn ‘how’,
Or so we are told....


What is the difference between a proton and a positron?
the charge is identical.
But something in the proton keeps the electron from colliding.
Why?


What causes an asteroid to dive bomb a celestial body, but a moon
to orbit it?


They say the moon is full of antimatter,
If it collided with the earth would they both explode like electron/positron?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 12, 2019, 09:42:23 PM
I suspect that what you and Citfta show, is just an ordinary shielding. Magnets made of iron certainly also work as shields. Other magnets, depends on what exactly are they made of, even ceramic magnets can work as shields. If so, all this intricate interaction of poles, etc, is just unnecessary. What it's basically about is just putting a shield between two magnets, certainly the magnet that repelled before, then will not, rather it attracts to the shield. And no overunity or anything in it.

This is of course my opinion. I thought how such experiments look like in the Coulomb model, and i found that in that model one magnet cannot shield another. And then i though, wait a minute, does it happen in these experiments either, or is it just an ordinary shield between two magnets. If you disagree, you should show that the shield magnet there doesn't work as an ordinary shield.

Analytical thinking.

As you say "This is of course my opinion."

As I said, You have not understand the concepts presented here.

......
". But this magnetic shield device has an even greater problem of friction, moving the shield magnet forth and back is moving a long distance, and in spite it looks very little friction, when measured, it may be more than the positive energy. And, it is very difficult to make a continuously moving device based on that, and when done, this would add friction even much more. "

                           Not so

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6va1an
.................
"But we deal with the same, consider that, that's all due to the asymmetry of the magnetic field."

                            NO its not about asymmetry of the fields
................
"I understand the disappointment, maybe finding that what you do is not really overunity, after you likely spent a lot of time and effort for that."
                     
                            I have had plenty of failed  O.U. attempts and accept those failures as learning experiences.
                            Your proclamation of not really O.U, doesn't make it so.  Fact is you don't know if any of this is O.U. or not.

                                             Please understand what I am saying here.                         

                          My disappointment is in your persistence in representing your self as if you had  read and understood the
                          concepts and devices I have presented in this topic.   Really... You've been off track all over the place.  You have
                          miss assumed half of what you have commented on.  This is no bueno, those misunderstandings misdirect
                          other readers / the topic its self.   

                       I hope I have gotten your attention.  Please be more careful in the future.
               respectfully
                     floor

           
                   





Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 12, 2019, 10:21:47 PM
                            NO its not about asymmetry of the fields

And how do you know?

If you claim that one field shields another field, this is a grandiose claim to make, and then you should also have at least some kind of theoretical explanation how one field can shield another field. And unless you really know it, i don't think that you can be sure that it doesn't involve asymmetry of the fields. Just a theoretical discussion, i don't see that you so far have shown that the effect in your and Citfta's experiments is anything else than ordinary shielding.

So your bench has a precision 4 grams. Not enough i think to measure the interaction of the shields that i talked about, as by my estimations the precision needed for that is 1/10 grams. What concerns the precision of the bench, also consider that friction greatly increases when there are forces between the magnets, and precision likely greatly decreases. Saying that, i think that your bench is a good and very well made device.

What concerns showing overunity, in case of interaction of magnets that i showed, all that is really necessary is to show that a magnet accelerates when it passes other magnet, no need in that case to measure forces. But this requires a very low friction, that may not be possible to achieve.

It is not only friction and too much energy necessary for moving with that friction in your and Citfta's experiments, it is worse. If it is just an ordinary shielding, then it shows no overunity, even when disregarding friction.

It would be great if you and Cifta can show that there is something else than ordinary shielding, and there is some overunity, really great. But as i see it, so far nothing shows that it is anything else than ordinary shielding in your experiments, no measurements or anything else show that this is not the case. Make no mistake, i were happy if any experiment really did show overunity, even when disregarding friction.

So far all i can do, is to try to measure the asymmetry of the forces in the magnet, the only feasible way i know so far to show overunity in magnets in a fully measurable way. But forces are too small, if my spring scales anyhow enable to do that, and i'm much too poor to get any more precise instruments.

Btw, you want me to see all your videos, but have you ever watched this video about my experiment  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 ? I don't think so. And i showed elsewhere here, that this gain of energy is about asymmetry of the fields of the magnets, i also showed by a picture of iron filings such asymmetry on a magnet. This experiment was not fully measured, so no proof, true, but so are not your experiments.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 13, 2019, 07:06:35 AM
There are many ways in which one magnetic field can shield another.
The field of the earth shields the field of the moon.
The field of the ionosphere shields the field of the sun


This device shields in reverse, but the principal is exactly the same
https://youtu.be/bRDKOcfrI-Y (https://youtu.be/bRDKOcfrI-Y)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 13, 2019, 07:34:28 AM
The field of the earth shields the field of the moon.

Does it? When there is ebb on one side of the earth, there is tide on the opposite side of the earth, check it out. The moon's gravitational field therefore goes through the earth's gravitational field.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 13, 2019, 07:49:19 AM
Does it? When there is ebb on one side of the earth, there is tide on the opposite side of the earth, check it out. The moon's gravitational field therefore goes through the earth's gravitational field.


At a distance, all magnetic fields permeate everything.
At close range, the dominant field rules the volume of space.


Just as our compasses point towards the North,
Instead of up at the moons greater magnetic field.


The smaller magnets around the ‘tractor beam’ dominate over the larger center magnet
until it gets in range, then the repulsion becomes effective.


If you get close enough to the moon your compass will point towards it.
There is a point in between where the 2 fields will balance out and there is equal attraction
and repulsion just like the ‘tractor beam’.


Reverse the tractor beam so you have repulsion outside and attraction inside.
With the proper proportions it works exactly the same.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on December 13, 2019, 07:50:38 AM
Well, I meant something like a Howard Johnson motor. And the declared asymmetry of the banana magnet. In its replication...
By the way, some motors have excellent bananas. ;)
p.s. It seems I just realized my mistake. My magnets have sharp ends with the same poles. And you need the various. :(
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 13, 2019, 08:09:17 AM
Well, I meant something like a Howard Johnson motor. And the declared asymmetry of the banana magnet. In its replication...

I'm sorry but, all i see on that drawing is a complete symmetry, and there is no reason why the magnet should move in any particular direction.

Moon doesn't have magnetic field. Or i cannot say for certain that it has no magnetic field, but if it has any, it is very weak, even close to the moon.

The magnetic field decreases inverse of the square root of the distance, or close to that, so certainly the magnets nearer have a lot more force.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on December 13, 2019, 10:10:27 AM
Can I re-magnetize it?
So that the poles are lined up differently?
Using a current pulse in a powerful coil?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 13, 2019, 10:21:35 AM
Can I re-magnetize it?

With a powerful neodymium magnet you can i think. One taken from an old hard drive, maybe, or maybe it's not strong enough.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on December 13, 2019, 11:16:37 AM
Does it? When there is ebb on one side of the earth, there is tide on the opposite side of the earth, check it out. The moon's gravitational field therefore goes through the earth's gravitational field.


Apparently you have never spent any time at the ocean.  High tides occur every 12 hours.  So when it is high tide on one side of the earth it is also high tide on the opposite side of the earth.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on December 13, 2019, 11:22:35 AM

At a distance, all magnetic fields permeate everything.
At close range, the dominant field rules the volume of space.


Just as our compasses point towards the North,
Instead of up at the moons greater magnetic field.


The smaller magnets around the ‘tractor beam’ dominate over the larger center magnet
until it gets in range, then the repulsion becomes effective.


If you get close enough to the moon your compass will point towards it.
There is a point in between where the 2 fields will balance out and there is equal attraction
and repulsion just like the ‘tractor beam’.


Reverse the tractor beam so you have repulsion outside and attraction inside.
With the proper proportions it works exactly the same.


The truth about the moon's magnetic field: [size=78%]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field_of_the_Moon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field_of_the_Moon)[/size]



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on December 13, 2019, 08:07:37 PM
I've had magnets that have had their fields negated, but never pole reversal.
The field is the same ,but becomes much weaker.
artv
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 13, 2019, 11:10:22 PM
By asymmetry i mean difference of the magnetic field near the pole, from spherical. In the Coulomb model and in an inverse square model of the magnetic field, the field is perfectly spherical near a pole. The Coulomb model is a model for electrostatic fields, but Coulomb model also means an inverse square model of a field, and such simplified model for a magnetic field.

One may say irregularity of a field. While in a way correct, one may argue that the magnetic field is completely regular, when it corresponds to the Gauss equation. But in spite of that, such field may not be completely spherical near a pole.

Thus i say asymmetry, meaning difference from the perfect symmetry of spherical, near the pole. I don't know how else to say that. By asymmetry i don't mean any asymmetry, but difference from the spherical symmetry provided by the Coulomb model. Should i say non-Coulomb asymmetry, non-Coulomb irregularity, or non-inverse-square asymmetry? That would sound a kind of inelegant.

By the Gauss equation, a part of the Maxwell equations, they changed peoples thinking the way that when the field lines are in loop, the magnetic field is regular. That is when we move by loops, all is regular, and it is normal to move by loops, and think about loops. But such field is not regular, when we move like by circle around the pole.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 18, 2019, 11:04:44 PM
And how do you know?

I know because I understand it.  Its about balance between attracting and repelling forces giveing rise to
a net neutrality along some vectors.


"If you claim that one field shields another field, this is a grandiose claim to make,"

BS 

No this is Not what I have claimed.  You choice of words reveals your confusion / misunderstanding
in the matter.

"and then you should also have at least some kind of theoretical explanation how one field can shield another field. And unless you really know it, i don't think that you can be sure that it doesn't involve asymmetry of the fields. "

As I said..
your misunderstanding, Not mine.

"Just a theoretical discussion, i don't see that you so far have shown that the effect in your and Citfta's experiments
is anything else than ordinary shielding."

                             Your use of the that phrase "ordinary shielding", is inappropriate in that it relly has no meaning / you have given no
                             explanation of "it"

          There are several aspects to WHAT I CONSIDER "ordinary shielding"

Examples

                Force is redirected

1. a sword impacts upon a "shield". 
  a.The force of the sword arrives / contacts as its sharp edge. This is a large force concentrated into a small surface area.
  b.The rigidity of the shield prevents the sword from penetrating.  The force it receives from the sword is spread out over
    a larger surface on the shields opposite side, where it is contact with the shield bearers arm. 
                       Like these magnet interactions I present.

               Or force is "dampened"

2.  Due to the shields mass, there is a resistance of the shield to acceleration.  The force is decreased in its amount translated
     to the shield bearers arm, as compared to, in the absence of the shield (inertial dampening).
                                   Different from these magnet interactions I present.

"So your bench has a precision 4 grams. Not enough i think to measure the interaction of the shields that i talked about,"
 as by my estimations the precision needed for that is 1/10 grams. What concerns the precision of the bench, also consider that friction greatly increases when there are forces between the magnets, and precision likely greatly decreases. Saying that, i think that your bench is a good and very well made device."

OK

What concerns showing overunity, in case of interaction of magnets that i showed, all that is really necessary is to show that a magnet accelerates when it passes other magnet, no need in that case to measure forces. But this requires a very low friction, that may not be possible to achieve.

It is not only friction and too much energy necessary for moving with that friction in your and Citfta's experiments, it is worse. If it is just an ordinary shielding, then it shows no overunity, even when disregarding friction.

"It would be great if you and Cifta can show that there is something else than ordinary shielding, and there is some overunity, really great. But as i see it, so far nothing shows that it is anything else than ordinary shielding in your experiments, no measurements or anything else show that this is not the case. Make no mistake, i were happy if any experiment really did show overunity, even when disregarding friction."

So far all i can do, is to try to measure the asymmetry of the forces in the magnet, the only feasible way i know so far to show overunity in magnets in a fully measurable way. But forces are too small, if my spring scales anyhow enable to do that, and i'm much too poor to get any more precise instruments.

"Btw, you want me to see all your videos, but have you ever watched this video about my experiment  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 ? I don't think so. And i showed elsewhere here, that this gain of energy is about asymmetry of the fields of the magnets, i also showed by a picture of iron filings such asymmetry on a magnet. This experiment was not fully measured, so no proof, true, but so are not your experiments."

I don't care if you watch  my videos or not, that is entirely up to you.
                              As I stated (3rd time now)  You have not understood these magnet interactions.

                                     The videos and drawings explain them to a large extent,
                                                 and give a basis for discussion.

What I care about is having an informed discussion.  I don't see that happening here with you.

                 With out your willingness to seek to understand them, There is no way, for a discussion of them.
                                  The" theory of their operation" is Newton's laws.

Ive done with all the magnet asymmetry  experiments for now, that I chose to explore, several years ago.
As you have said, not enough to over come friction / other problems.
     I wish you good luck and good hunting in your experiments.

 Please don't use this topic to attract comments to your experiments / Ideas.

                               DO YOUR OWN TOPIC AND PLEASE STAY OFF OF THIS ONE,
                          UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THAT, YOU HAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING OF IT.

       regards
             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 19, 2019, 12:17:33 AM
Can I re-magnetize it?
So that the poles are lined up differently?
Using a current pulse in a powerful coil?


Yes with a strong enough electromagnet you can reorient it
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 19, 2019, 05:30:30 AM
I know because I understand it.  Its about balance between attracting and repelling forces giveing rise to
a net neutrality along some vectors.

You omit something essential, greedy simplification. In case of the supposed "shield magnet", the attracting and repelling forces balance each other between the "shield magnet" and the magnet next to it. But this does not balance the attracting and repelling forces between the two magnets at the two sides of the "shield magnet". When the magnetic fields of these magnets on two sides go through the magnetic field of the "shield  magnet".

And it is considered now in science that magnetic field goes through another magnetic field, one field doesn't shield another field. So i say, when you suggest something that differs from that, you claim something theoretically new. And you should then provide a theoretical reason why this happens, and how this happens, and also show experimentally that it happens. Neither of that has been done. This is just the scientific method and doesn't depend on me.

When it remains true that one field doesn't shield another, any effect of shielding is then for another reasons. The obvious reason is that magnets are made of magnetic material, that can act as shield when placed between two magnets. Similar to a piece of iron or other not magnetized magnetic material. This is what i call ordinary shielding.

> Please don't use this topic to attract comments to your experiments / Ideas.

This thread is about "Magnets, motion and measurement", right? So anything that is about magnets, motion and measurement, about all these three, can be in this thread, no matter whether it attracts attention or not, is it so?

> Ive done with all the magnet asymmetry  experiments for now, that I chose to explore, several years ago.
As you have said, not enough to over come friction / other problems.
     I wish you good luck and good hunting in your experiments.

So why are you trying to prevent a certain field of research from going on, by your sole discretion? I said it doesn't overcome friction, in ways it could been done by now. But i *did not* say that the research must be ended for that reason. To the opposite, i want this research to go on. Don't imply me saying that i have not said and that is the opposite to what i think and what i ever wanted to say, please.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 19, 2019, 08:10:03 AM
As I tried to say earlier, “ shielding” is not really a shield, but a diverter
like a “T-pipe”.


it is possible to shield a magnetic field up to our nanotech’s ability.
higher frequency fields can still penetrate even our finest mesh Faraday cages.
As we advance this technology, we may be able to approach the wavelength of
our iron alloys and some ceramics.
Plank tells us our materials physics can never reach a cage small enough to block
the field of rare earth metals.
And absolutely never block higher magnetic radiation.


I think (personally) the diversion option is wasting our magnetic power.
It is better to think like Howard Johnson or how the ‘tractor beam’ works.
Use another magnet to overpower the field, either by compression or absorption
To warp the field and achieve the shape you desire.
Like a spring, a compressed magnetic field retains its’ energy.
Where-as a “shield” sucks it up...
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 20, 2019, 11:09:03 PM
You omit something essential, greedy simplification. In case of the supposed "shield magnet", the attracting and repelling forces balance each other between the "shield magnet" and the magnet next to it. But this does not balance the attracting and repelling forces between the two magnets at the two sides of the "shield magnet". When the magnetic fields of these magnets on two sides go through the magnetic field of the "shield  magnet".

                                                            You are simply incorrect in this statement. 

Both of  the outside magnets (output magnets) have a neutrality of force in specific vectors (illustrated in certain of the drawings / designs).

There is nothing controverial in that action. 

It only requires a fair degree of precision in matching of the shapes and strengths of the magnets to one another to accomplish this.

The shielding magnet is also neutralized in a desirable vector.   


And it is considered now in science that magnetic field goes through another magnetic field, one field doesn't shield another field. So i say, when you suggest something that differs from that, you claim something theoretically new. And you should then provide a theoretical reason why this happens, and how this happens, and also show experimentally that it happens. Neither of that has been done. This is just the scientific method and doesn't depend on me.

                                                     I do not and have NEVER contend that they do.
                                         As I have said You are not understanding the subject matter.

When it remains true that one field doesn't shield another, any effect of shielding is then for another reasons. The obvious reason is that magnets are made of magnetic material, that can act as shield when placed between two magnets. Similar to a piece of iron or other not magnetized magnetic material. This is what i call ordinary shielding.

                      Yes, once again.. I agree / do not contend otherwise, that IN THE MANNER / SENSE IN WHICH YOU ARE PROJECTING  "one field doesn't shield another"

                     But I do not agree that

"any effect of shielding"....  IS FOR ....  "the obvious reason is that magnets are made of magnetic material, that can act as shield when placed between two magnets. Similar to a piece of iron or other not magnetized magnetic material. This is what i call ordinary shielding."

                                                   There is another aspect / reason for the shielding.
                Although I have also described this aspect / property of magnet interactions ... YOU ... refer to, in parts of these topics.

                                                               
This thread is about "Magnets, motion and measurement", right? So anything that is about magnets, motion and measurement, about all these three, can be in this thread, no matter whether it attracts attention or not, is it so?

                   NO... there are thousnds of aspects to magnets motion and measurement that would be inappropriate at any point in the topic
and others that would be appropriate within the topic but only in the context of the current discussion.

So why are you trying to prevent a certain field of research from going on, by your sole discretion? I said it doesn't overcome friction, in ways it could been done by now. But i *did not* say that the research must be ended for that reason. To the opposite, i want this research to go on. Don't imply me saying that i have not said and that is the opposite to what i think and what i ever wanted to say, please.

                   I am not...  can not and do not intend to "prevent a certain field of research from going on"...

                                                   I CAN prevent it from going on in THIS topic.

             What I have said is a fact.... You have made repeated and incorrect statements and interpretations  of  / about the the interactions I have presented.

                           AND NO .... You are also mistaken if you think I have given you permission to  change this topic in to a discussion of your design / idea.

You bring relevant points to the topic,  but then again...   IF you  have read what I have just posted above, you should
also understand, that as I have said (4th time now)...

            You have been assuming incorrectly ... that you understand the mechanisms / operating principles
                           but also there fore, have been misrepresenting the interactions I have presented.

          Yes I get it, but do you get it that those aspects of / what you define as shielding are not the principle
          of operation here ?
         
                                                                        But also
                                I do hope that you  have / are coming closer to understanding the shielding.   

                                Let go of the idea that shielding is "blocking".  No kind of shielding, not even of a cannon ball
                                by a castle wall is any thing other than a redistribution of forces.


                                                  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 21, 2019, 03:23:15 AM
                                                            You are simply incorrect in this statement. 

Both of  the outside magnets (output magnets) have a neutrality of force in specific vectors (illustrated in certain of the drawings / designs).

There is nothing controverial in that action. 

It only requires a fair degree of precision in matching of the shapes and strengths of the magnets to one another to accomplish this.

The shielding magnet is also neutralized in a desirable vector.

No, i don't know what do you mean by that. See the drawing below, this shows your "shield magnet" between two magnets. As one can see, the forces between the left and right magnet there don't balance each other, as you yourself agreed that a magnetic field doesn't shield another magnetic field.

> NO... there are thousnds of aspects to magnets motion and measurement that would be inappropriate at any point in the topic
and others that would be appropriate within the topic but only in the context of the current discussion.

No, your thread is named "Magnets, motion and measurements", also in your starting post you said that this thread is about anything regarding magnets, motion and measurement. You alone cannot decide what is appropriate in this thread and what is not. This is a public forum. And i don't have to create my own thread, but you should create a separate thread about your papers, if you want only these to be discussed. And that too doesn't save you from defending your work, because this is a part of the scientific method.

> Ive done with all the magnet asymmetry  experiments for now, that I chose to explore, several years ago.
As you have said, not enough to over come friction / other problems.
     I wish you good luck and good hunting in your experiments.

I have been in this forum for many years, and i have not seen your experiments about asymmetry. I think you try to discredit me once every month, people better don't talk to me, avoid conflict and submit to tyrants.

I think my spring scales have arrived.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on December 21, 2019, 08:36:40 AM
Quote
With a powerful neodymium magnet you can i think. One taken from an old hard drive, maybe, or maybe it's not strong enough.
A whole bunch of that. no problems.
But, it seems to me there is no fundamental difference between a neodymium and a ferrite magnet.
the device on a powerful magnet will spin faster, but on a weak one it will slow down.
If at all will rotate ... :)
p.s. Why are there no avatars on this forum?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 25, 2019, 09:06:42 PM
My assesment of the design in the jpg file (below, yours)  is that it is a poor one.  It MIGHT result in some SMALL reduction of force between the outer magnets.  But also the drawing is a very incomplete comunication.  It leaves out too much needed description.
 
Here are those links again, to some videos of effective ahielding.
There are many other videos at that location "seethisvid" channel at daily motion. com


1. this video, titled "amazeing"  @
                          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

2. or this variation, watch this video, titled "RtAngSld"   @
                          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978                         

3. or to see a completely different method of neutralizing magnet force as in this video,
titled "TDForceDiagramed"

                            at 2 minutes and 50 seconds into the video
watch                  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d

4. or to see yet another, completely different method of neutralizing magnet actions (by brute force)
see this video @
                             https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

5. or to see a completely different method of neutralizing magnet force as in this video, titled "TDForceDiagramed"

6. or watch this video titled "direct approach"  @
                                                                        https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xgiez

7. or this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 1"  @
                                                                       https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0md2

8. or  this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 2"  @
                                                                       https://www.dailymotion.com/videox7f0o4w

                                   SEE THIS "Newton's magnets" PDF BELOW
                https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/dlattach/attach/171711/


     floor



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 26, 2019, 04:59:16 AM
But also the drawing is a very incomplete comunication.

You did not give an answer. Referring to all your videos and papers, saying that the answer is somewhere inside these, is not an answer.

The question is, what shields the forces between the left and right magnets. You in essence said balancing. I showed by drawing that these forces are not anyhow balanced. Unless there is some unknown way how they are, that you didn't explain. I concluded then by Occam's razor, that the shielding between the left and right magnets there should be ordinary shielding by the magnetic material. An ordinary shielding like a piece of iron shields.

The matter is, not the experiments, nor the theory shows that there may be any overunity. Make no mistake, i very much wanted to see the evidence of overunity, even if it's less than friction. But you have not shown that in your case there may be any overunity.

Thus unless you show any theoretical reason why there should be overunity in your case, or show experimentally that there is overunity, there is no importance of your work. One can show many fancy ways how magnets interact, and it may be interesting for some, but what is important in this forum is overunity research.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on December 26, 2019, 01:51:24 PM
You did not give an answer. Referring to all your videos and papers, saying that the answer is somewhere inside these, is not an answer.

The question is, what shields the forces between the left and right magnets. You in essence said balancing. I showed by drawing that these forces are not anyhow balanced. Unless there is some unknown way how they are, that you didn't explain. I concluded then by Occam's razor, that the shielding between the left and right magnets there should be ordinary shielding by the magnetic material. An ordinary shielding like a piece of iron shields.

The matter is, not the experiments, nor the theory shows that there may be any overunity. Make no mistake, i very much wanted to see the evidence of overunity, even if it's less than friction. But you have not shown that in your case there may be any overunity.

Thus unless you show any theoretical reason why there should be overunity in your case, or show experimentally that there is overunity, there is no importance of your work. One can show many fancy ways how magnets interact, and it may be interesting for some, but what is important in this forum is overunity research.




You are incorrect that the magnet shields like ordinary iron would shield.  If you replace the center magnet with a piece of iron or steel both magnets would be attracted strongly to the piece of iron.  There would be NO shielding.  In the video I posted measuring the forces with the fish scale that you object to I show that it takes almost no force to move the shield magnet into position.  If I had used iron for a "shield" the iron would have been pulled forcefully into the "shield" position.


Floor has spent countless hours doing his testing and experimenting.  I have learned a lot from studying his videos and PDFs.  If you would actually take the time to study them and try some of his experiments instead of bashing his efforts you might actually learn something.  And if you want to promote your ideas about asymmetry of magnetic fields PLEASE start your OWN thread about that.


Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 26, 2019, 02:27:55 PM
If you replace the center magnet with a piece of iron or steel both magnets would be attracted strongly to the piece of iron.

So you say, then there will be no balancing. Right but, the matter is, magnet can at the same time work as a magnet, and its magnetic material work as a shield. And this magnetic material in the magnet does the shielding, not the magnetic field. The way it shields is then in principle not different from a piece of iron, the only difference then is that it in addition to that woks as a magnet.

Also, in your experiment the left magnet attracted to the shield magnet, that it was not supposed to do. This also may show that the shield magnet worked as an ordinary shield, and the left magnet attracted to its magnetic material, as magnet attracts to shield.

> In the video I posted measuring the forces with the fish scale that you object to I show that it takes almost no force to move the shield magnet into position.

No, moving the shield magnet takes in fact a lot of force there. That is, the force is not great, but the distance moved is great, and thus the energy spent for that is very great. What takes energy in case of ordinary shield, is moving it out from between two magnets, because moving it in and out when there is one magnet, compensates each other, but that it has to be moved out with an additional magnet, is not compensated.

This is why there is no overunity when using an ordinary shielding, even not when disregarding friction. Neither could i see that the forces when moving the shield magnet in, and when moving it out, were equal.

> Floor has spent countless hours doing his testing and experimenting.  I have learned a lot from studying his videos and PDFs.  If you would actually take the time to study them and try some of his experiments instead of bashing his efforts you might actually learn something.

I'm not bashing his efforts. But i'm sorry, i'm not about learning everything that Floor has done, i'm talking about one thing. And this thing happens to be related to what Floor did.

But you are hindering my efforts, don't you see. And not only my efforts. Because then it may go, Floor already found a solution for overunity, thus any research of the asymmetry of the magnetic fields is useless. And then anything about magnets, motion, and measurement, will of course be about what Floor did. Not sure it were right even if it were the case, but in addition, it is also not certain at all that Floor has found any overunity, even a theoretical one.

It of course also depends on you. And if you show by measurements that there is overunity, even when disregarding friction, then i will very highly appreciate you. And one aim of this forum will be fulfilled, the first time overunity was shown, very important for everyone. But we are not there yet, and you yet have to show that there was any energy gain, i said you may disregard friction, or show that there was no energy gain, whatever is true in the reality, in the god's nature, as Faraday said.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: gyulasun on December 26, 2019, 09:01:16 PM
Hi ayeaye,

You wrote:
So you say, then there will be no balancing. Right but, the matter is, magnet can at the same time work as a magnet, and its magnetic material work as a shield. And this magnetic material in the magnet does the shielding, not the magnetic field. The way it shields is then in principle not different from a piece of iron, the only difference then is that it in addition to that woks as a magnet.   
Well, this is simply wrong!  Please consider how the magnetic permeability of the material of a permanent magnet changes when it is magnetized by a manufacturer to get a permanent magnet in the end of the manufacturing process.
Before the magnetization, the material surely has a permeability like the so called ferromagnetic materials (a normal iron or ferrite piece) have got i.e. a permanent magnet would attract to them. This is because their permeability is simply higher than 1 i.e. higher than that of the air. And the moment these materials are magnetized by a very strong current pulse, they become a permanent magnet but their magnetic permeability is reduced down very near to 1 ! They are said to be almost fully saturated magnetically.
This means that they as a magnetic material are "dead" and could be almost fully transparent to other magnetic fields as if they were not present at all i.e. they would behave to outside magnetic fields like air. Of course they function as a permanent magnet but they would not behave for instance as a shield like a soft iron plate normally behaves between two permanent magnets for instance. Understand? You cannot say the magnetic material of a permanent magnet can work as a "shield".   

 
Quote
Also, in your experiment the left magnet attracted to the shield magnet, that it was not supposed to do. This also may show that the shield magnet worked as an ordinary shield, and the left magnet attracted to its magnetic material, as magnet attracts to shield.

> In the video I posted measuring the forces with the fish scale that you object to I show that it takes almost no force to move the shield magnet into position.

No, moving the shield magnet takes in fact a lot of force there. That is, the force is not great, but the distance moved is great, and thus the energy spent for that is very great. What takes energy in case of ordinary shield, is moving it out from between two magnets, because moving it in and out when there is one magnet, compensates each other, but that it has to be moved out with an additional magnet, is not compensated.

This is why there is no overunity when using an ordinary shielding, even not when disregarding friction. Neither could i see that the forces when moving the shield magnet in, and when moving it out, were equal.   
   
What you noted for Citfta above is also wrong: the attraction was due to the slightly unbalanced attract - repel forces between the magnets. Member Floor demonstrated how well these attract and repel forces can be balanced so that in his precise setups the moving magnets (call them shields if you like) can be moved with very small outside force. This small force was demonstrated by Citfta too! even if his setup was not as precisely balanced as that of Floor.  Yet you deduce from his video that "moving the shield magnet takes in fact a lot of force, etc".  I understand that you refer to the long distance the "shield" magnets should cover and that this may involve "a lot of" input work but if the input force is very small, then the input work can also be small even though the displacement is long. And confront this with the strong repel force the two facing magnets exert on each other and one of them or both move out. Yes, the initial big repel force would be reduced by the square of the distance , yet the work done by the repel forces "feels" higher than the input work. If you build such setup, you would surely "feel" that... 

Dear ayeaye, have you built a setup Floor has been showing in his videos ? or Citfta has shown?  This is the only way to feel the forces by your fingers and then you can measure these forces by a suitable force meter if you wish to do so. But first a robust and magnetically well balanced setup should be built with as little friction for the moving magnets as possible. 
Quote
> Floor has spent countless hours doing his testing and experimenting.  I have learned a lot from studying his videos and PDFs.  If you would actually take the time to study them and try some of his experiments instead of bashing his efforts you might actually learn something.

I'm not bashing his efforts. But i'm sorry, i'm not about learning everything that Floor has done, i'm talking about one thing. And this thing happens to be related to what Floor did.

But you are hindering my efforts, don't you see. And not only my efforts. Because then it may go, Floor already found a solution for overunity, thus any research of the asymmetry of the magnetic fields is useless. And then anything about magnets, motion, and measurement, will of course be about what Floor did. Not sure it were right even if it were the case, but in addition, it is also not certain at all that Floor has found any overunity, even a theoretical one.

It of course also depends on you. And if you show by measurements that there is overunity, even when disregarding friction, then i will very highly appreciate you. And one aim of this forum will be fulfilled, the first time overunity was shown, very important for everyone. But we are not there yet, and you yet have to show that there was any energy gain, i said you may disregard friction, or show that there was no energy gain, whatever is true in the reality, in the god's nature, as Faraday said.
It is funny your saying: "you are not about learning everything that Floor has done".   If your circumstances are such that precise and robust mechanical construction is not readily possible or available for you, that is understandable.  But in this case you are not in a position to compare his setup to your research on the assymetry of magnetic fields.  Let me ask: what is your problem with "And then anything about magnets, motion, and measurement, will of course be about what Floor did." ?   If you do not wish to evalute Floor setup in practice, built as Floor did, then there is no comparison base between his and your research, hence no sense for worry. 

Sorry to chime in with this long post, hopefully this helps you, I am not against you or anyone else, just try to clarify mistakes, wrong interpretations.   

Merry Christmas to you all!
Gyula
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 27, 2019, 01:29:50 AM
Well, this is simply wrong!

How can you so simply say that? Magnetic permeability changes on different magnetic materials, and we don't even know what the magnetic permeability was on the magnets used in that experiment, also how strongly they were magnetized.

The matter is, Floor said, it is not about ordinary shielding. But gave no explanation whatsoever what the shielding there is caused by. Thus i conclude by Occam's razor that it may be caused by an ordinary shielding.

It's like you see that two people are against each other, and rushed to defend one of them. But it is not about people, we have to find out how it really is.

I didn't come to this forum because of my desire to subordinate to authorities, i came here for a very different reason. If one has a desire to subordinate to authorities, then there are much better places for that than this forum.

> the attraction was due to the slightly unbalanced attract - repel forces between the magnets

And they were very well balanced when moving the shield magnet out, you said it required very little force. Something doesn't add up there, or does?

> I understand that you refer to the long distance the "shield" magnets should cover and that this may involve "a lot of" input work but if the input force is very small, then the input work can also be small even though the displacement is long. And confront this with the strong repel force the two facing magnets exert on each other and one of them or both move out.

I calculated the input and output energies there, in this very thread, and found that the input energy was considerably greater, in most due to the energy of moving the shield magnet. Which may be because of friction, but may also be due to energy needed to move an ordinary shielding. I did these calculations in this same thread, you criticize me, but it seems that you don't even read what i write, even if it is relevant to the matter.

> If your circumstances are such that precise and robust mechanical construction is not readily possible or available for you, that is understandable.  But in this case you are not in a position to compare his setup to your research on the assymetry of magnetic fields.

This doesn't follow. I also don't think that Floor is ever going to replicate my experiment. But in my experiment i measured input and output energies, and output was greater. Also i provided an explanation what it is likely caused by, iron filings show asymmetry of the magnetic field, which i also showed. So my experiment was better in that respect, it provided a clear and consistent result, different from the Floor's experiment where is not clear what it does or does not show, or does it show anything relevant to overunity. Even in spite that i didn't measure the initial forces, but moved it as close to the peak as possible. All was not measured in the Citfta's experiment either, if it were properly measured, we could now say for sure whether the effect was caused by ordinary shielding or not, but it cannot be said by now.

What i appreciate about Citfta though, was that the first time i saw that the forces were really measured. This was a great step forward. And in spite it was difficult, i was able to do the energy calculations based on his video, capturing the experiment in video alone was enough to enable that.

> Let me ask: what is your problem with "And then anything about magnets, motion, and measurement, will of course be about what Floor did." ?   If you do not wish to evalute Floor setup in practice, built as Floor did, then there is no comparison base between his and your research, hence no sense for worry.

So i shouldn't worry, if all research would be ended but Floor's, i should think it's ok. Very weird conclusion and doesn't make no sense at all.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 27, 2019, 07:55:55 AM
Merry Christmas to you all!

I never got such messages during these holidays. But people have tried to discredit me before, then turned out to be wrong. This is like an experience of my life, this defending myself is what i used to do all my life.

But anyway, happy holidays to you all. And we will show that there is overunity one day, beyond doubt, the way that no one can no longer deny.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 27, 2019, 10:39:18 PM
Here are some good explanations of how and why these devices work.

see attachment below

 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: gyulasun on December 28, 2019, 12:42:42 AM
Hi ayeaye,

Quote
How can you so simply say that? Magnetic permeability changes on different magnetic materials, and we don't even know what the magnetic permeability was on the magnets used in that experiment, also how strongly they were magnetized. 

If you did not understand what I wrote on this as an explanation in my previous mail then why do not you say that?  Your answer clearly indicates you can only mention generalities in an attempt to argue with me. 
It does not matter what the permeability of the magnetic materials had before these materials got magnetized and became permanent magnets. After the magnetization, the permeability falls down to near 1 i.e. to that of the air. Ceramic magnets have a permeability of 1.2 to 1.6 or so, Neo magnets have 1.05 to 1.2 or so, etc. If you place say a ceramic (i.e. ferrite) magnet into an air cored solenoid coil and monitor the self inductance of the coil with an L meter, you would find the inductance value would increase very little with respect to the air core case (I tested this many years ago, with different types of permanent magnets).
What does this test tell you on the magnetic permeabilty of permanent magnets? Shielding is out of question in this sense due to the near 1 magnetic permeabilty. I did not simply say just out of thin air that you were wrong in this respect. 
Quote
I didn't come to this forum because of my desire to subordinate to authorities, i came here for a very different reason. If one has a desire to subordinate to authorities, then there are much better places for that than this forum.
 
The only 'authority' on a technical forum should be replications of empirical results the forum members demonstrate. But you do not wish to fully replicate Floor's or Citfta's setups as they demonstrated, you simply misunderstand and criticize their setups. So what? 
You say Floor would not replicate your setup. What if he is already at a more advanced experience level with magnets than you and he simply thinks in his head that his setups are better than yours? I just speculate this as a possibility, do not take this to your heart... 
 
I wrote I am not against you, I simply pointed out your misinterpretations with their setups. It is unfortunate and it is your choice if you consider this situation as you are being a subordinate here, nobody implied that. Floor kindly asked you at least twice to start your own thread and do not discuss your own setup and research on the assymetry of magnetic fields in this thread. 

Quote

> the attraction was due to the slightly unbalanced attract - repel forces between the magnets

And they were very well balanced when moving the shield magnet out, you said it required very little force. Something doesn't add up there, or does? 


I do not see controversy: in Citfta's setup the magnetic balancing was not much precise (like for instance it was in Floor's setups) but with that small unbalance of the attract - repel forces the input force needed for moving the magnets was still much lower than the output force gained from the strong facing like poles. 

Quote
> Let me ask: what is your problem with "And then anything about magnets, motion, and measurement, will of course be about what Floor did." ?   If you do not wish to evalute Floor setup in practice, built as Floor did, then there is no comparison base between his and your research, hence no sense for worry.

So i shouldn't worry, if all research would be ended but Floor's, i should think it's ok. Very weird conclusion and doesn't make no sense at all. 

I wrote you should not worry about what Floor did in this thread if you do not want to evalute his setups in practice: 
1) it is his thread and readers here may or may not agree with his findings in the end and 
2) you have written wrong interpretations on his setups what he objected and asked you to start your own thread.   
Quote

But anyway, happy holidays to you all. And we will show that there is overunity one day, beyond doubt, the way that no one can no longer deny.

 Amen! 

Gyula
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 28, 2019, 07:37:43 AM
It does not matter what the permeability of the magnetic materials had before these materials got magnetized and became permanent magnets. After the magnetization, the permeability falls down to near 1 i.e. to that of the air.

You try to make it look like that i meant something else than i said, that was wrong. Attack against strawman.

So you say the magnets are always magnetized up to the saturation. This is not always the case. I also have some weakly magnetized iron magnets, and they act as a shield, i tried it. So by you they couldn't, as you want to say that everything that gets magnetized, is saturated and can no more act as a shield. One cannot agree that this is always true.

But my argument was general, yes, i didn't exclude any other unknown ways of shielding, if there are any at all. I only said that because Floor did not explain at all how the shielding in his experiments happens, in spite that he was asked, then by Occam's razor it should be assumed that it was an ordinary shielding. But if there are any other ways of shielding, then also it is not known whether they act the same way as an ordinary shielding what concerns attraction to the shield, and then also likely these experiments provide no overunity.

> I do not see controversy: in Citfta's setup the magnetic balancing was not much precise (like for instance it was in Floor's setups) but with that small unbalance of the attract - repel forces the input force needed for moving the magnets was still much lower than the output force gained from the strong facing like poles.

It looks like that you don't understand what you say here. And no, i calculated that the input energy was much greater than the output energy, exactly because the energy of moving the shield magnet was too great.

> What if he is already at a more advanced experience level with magnets than you and he simply thinks in his head that his setups are better than yours?

This is exactly the way of thinking that shouldn't be in science. And this is exactly what causes the authority that can prevent others from doing research.

> I wrote I am not against you, I simply pointed out your misinterpretations with their setups.

No you didn't. And no, i cannot believe that you are not against me, you try to make it look like that i'm ignorant even when i didn't say anything ignorant. When one's aim is not finding the truth but something else, like authority, then when criticized, they feel like it is a situation of you or them, because when that is found, they are lost. So they see the only alternative to eliminate the opponent, trying for that to have as many people who support them as possible. And the best, also maintaining good relations with the one they try to attack, making them to agree with the attack against them. As you see you try to say that you are not against me.

But it is exactly that in the research, people shouldn't matter, but finding how it really is should matter. You are though talking much too much about me.

> it is his thread

No, this is a public forum and no one owns the threads. What can be talked in the thread is thus determined only by the topic. Like if Floor created a separate thread about his papers, like "Floor's papers on magnets", then sure i didn't talk there about anything else than his papers.

And yes i'm not against Floor talking about his work here, or anywhere, and if he does, i don't anyhow try to prevent it. Even if i don't agree with what he says, he has a right to say that.

> you have written wrong interpretations on his setups what he objected and asked you to start your own thread

I have not, and now you try to say that as you think that you succeeded to falsely discredit me, then this should take from me all my rights. That too is not true, even if i were wrong, this doesn't take from me all my rights.

> Amen!

Good that you agree with something, but what i said was not in the name of the Egyptian god.

But OK, this is what i propose. Try to measure overunity when disregarding friction. I think this is an achievable goal, and the goal i think there should be first.

This is not worth and should be disregarded, as Floor says. No, this is doing it wrong way around. First do this, so that we have a measured overunity, in spite useless, and then think how to go ahead. But then we at least know where the overunity is.

I found it is in the asymmetry (irregularity) of the magnetic field. Evidence like iron filings show that, and my experiment also likely shows that.

If there is also another way to get overunity, like Floor says, the better, but it should be measured first. And when measurements indeed show such overunity, then it should be found what it is caused by. But so far there is no evidence of the overunity that Floor suggests, and there is a question whether there is any. Floor should provide at least some evidence that there may be any overunity, either theoretically or by experiment, otherwise it is not worth considering. I don't reject all the other great work that Floor did, that all can be useful, but this forum is about overunity.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 28, 2019, 03:20:08 PM
Ayeaye,


How/why do you conclude overunity from field asymmetry?


1) upon close examination, there is no symmetrical field.
2) symmetry has nothing to do with field conservatism.
3) even though the field is not symmetrical, the two halves are balanced.
as one changes shape or intensity, the other changes inversely to counter it.
i.e. compress one side the other expands, expand one the other contracts.


When one side has a greater intensity the other has a larger ‘volume’
To visualize what happens inside the atoms, look back at your magnetic filings
But not at the end you are looking at.....  look at the ends that are away from the field.
the magnet forces one end to angle towards it
But the opposite end angles away, as if there were a virtual fulcrum in the center of the filing.
Atoms do basically the same thing. The atom is the fulcrum the electron field pivots on.
When you approach a magnet with another magnet the weaker one acts like the iron filings.


You can see this amplified if you set up layers of filings
and observe the induced field from the first layer of filings affect the filings in the next layer
Here you see the actual fields of each bundle of filings pivot with the motion of their group.
Groups of atoms similarly make up the parts of the macro field.


When you observe “field lines”, this is the spacing between rows of groups of atoms
like the lines formed by the mountain peaks of the iron filings.
the lines are actually areas of no field between the field. Like the gaps in Saturn’s rings.
As you move further away from the field, the gaps expand in size and distance between them.
As you compress or contract either side of the field you can see the spacing change
inversely on both sides.


They will never line up perfectly, in a non-superconducting magnet.
(and I have my suspicions that even those can’t be perfectly symmetrical)


the groups in the center are bound more tightly and
pivot less than the groups near the outer surface. Even the earth field can tilt them slightly.
any magnetic field  within miles can have an effect, tiny as it may be.
For this reason, when a magnet is made, one side is slightly stronger.
This is usually the north, as a convention of our winding direction.
Field is stronger on the end opposite from the direction of current flow.
If we wind left-handed the south side will have this defect.
if we magnetize with a static or permanent field, the defect will be a combination of
the defect in the original field and the effects of the earth field.


Also: below the saturation of the material, internal hysteresis will tilt the atom groups
out of alignment. causing further field defect.


The internal energy of the field is the combined effect of the atom groups interacting
with each other and with the outside world.
They are set like a spring. Unless you change the internal energy, they will always give
back what you put into them. Irregardless of symmetry.



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 28, 2019, 03:22:40 PM
Edit
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 28, 2019, 06:10:10 PM
How/why do you conclude overunity from field asymmetry?

By the asymmetry of the magnetic field i mean this. For the simplicity, look only at one pole, consider only attraction, consider only a small piece of magnetic material such as iron, that attracts to the magnet.

When the strength of the magnetic field is somewhat different in different directions near the pole, then do the following. Move the piece of iron towards the pole (radially) where the magnetic filed is stronger. Then near the pole of the magnet, move it to the position where the magnetic field is weaker. Then move it away from the pole. When doing so, we get additional energy, like the speed of the piece of iron increases from the moment when it started to approach the magnet, to the moment when it moved away from the magnet. Assuming that there is some way to move the piece of iron by that trajectory with a very small friction. Right?

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: gyulasun on December 28, 2019, 09:58:43 PM
ayeaye:

Now you try to whitewash yourself but nobody is your mindreader, what you wrote is what counts. And this is what you wrote:

So you say, then there will be no balancing. Right but, the matter is, magnet can at the same time work as a magnet, and its magnetic material work as a shield. And this magnetic material in the magnet does the shielding, not the magnetic field. The way it shields is then in principle not different from a piece of iron, the only difference then is that it in addition to that woks as a magnet. 

And I explained that permanent magnets have a permeability of near to one, which involves a negligibly small response to outside fields from the magnetic material point of view.
It is obvious that in case of a weak magnet the permeability will increase to way higher than 1  i.e. its magnetic material may start to show an increased response to outside magnetic fields. BUT you did not write about weak magnets above and now you come along with a weak magnet example!  LOL
How should a reader here know what else you may have had in your mind? 

I finish this topic with you, no sense to continue.

Gyula


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 29, 2019, 12:23:54 AM
By the asymmetry of the magnetic field i mean this. For the simplicity, look only at one pole, consider only attraction, consider only a small piece of magnetic material such as iron, that attracts to the magnet.

When the strength of the magnetic field is somewhat different in different directions near the pole, then do the following. Move the piece of iron towards the pole (radially) where the magnetic filed is stronger. Then near the pole of the magnet, move it to the position where the magnetic field is weaker. Then move it away from the pole. When doing so, we get additional energy, like the speed of the piece of iron increases from the moment when it started to approach the magnet, to the moment when it moved away from the magnet. Assuming that there is some way to move the piece of iron by that trajectory with a very small friction. Right?


What you are saying is you “feel” the iron being pushed away from the inducing field at certain
angles of departure?


Or that you “feel” less pull on the way out than on the way in?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 29, 2019, 09:25:56 AM
BUT you did not write about weak magnets above and now you come along with a weak magnet example!

End this meaningless verbal game please, this has no value for anyone. Not saying weak doesn't mean that i meant very strong, obviously it doesn't.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 29, 2019, 09:35:26 AM
Or that you “feel” less pull on the way out than on the way in?

Yes exactly. That the stronger pull on the way in gives it more energy than the weaker pull on the way out, opposite to its direction of movement, takes from it. Thus a net energy gain. Like a speed gain. What moves on the drawing below is just some iron object.

And it may even be possible in some straight path, as my experiment shows.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: shylo on December 29, 2019, 12:00:11 PM
Yes, the pull in is greater than the out but,
You use the gain to move from where you went in (2 o-clock)to where you exit(12 o-clock).
artv
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on December 29, 2019, 12:25:24 PM
You use the gain to move from where you went in (2 o-clock)to where you exit(12 o-clock).

No, when the force is radial, then moving near the pole takes no energy, as the force is then always perpendicular to the path.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on December 30, 2019, 10:58:03 PM
This is a conservative evaluation of the ratio of, the work in  to  the work out, of the magnet interaction set,
demonstrated in the "amazeing.mpg" video.         @ https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

                                OUTPUT

11 mm = the thickness of the shield magnet plus a small gap on each side.

Repelling force available between the output magnets at 11mm = 156g

Repelling force available at 40mm = 15g  (Max. distance at which the force between the output magnets was measured in this run).

Average force through the output stroke is very conservatively 40 g

I arrived at this 40 gram value by using a graph of the force to distance, which is from a previous measurement set,
of the ceramic magnets I use (orientated edge to edge).  The slope of that graph, actually gives a 75 gram average force
value for the magnets if  / when the force is 156 grams at an 11 mm distance between the output magnets and the force
is 29 g when they are at a 40 mm distance.  I underestimated from 75 grams average force because I didn't do a complete
set of measurements at this time.  This is an anti-fudge factor.  It is toward   non O.U.   results by 47 %  (40g is only 53 % of 75g).
................................................................
40g = 0.392N

40mm - 11mm  =  29mm = 0.029m  (output magnet's travel)

0.392N  X  0.029m = 0.011368  Joules of output
................................................................
                               INPUTS  (3)

5g force to motivate the shield magnet

5g = 0.049N
................................................................
1.  0.049N   X   0.048m = 0.002352 J as shield install (1 and 7/8 inch travel (this is the shield magnet's length)
................................................................
2.  0.049N   X   0.048m = 0.002352 J as shield removal (1 and 7/8 inch travel)
................................................................
5g force to motivate the output magnet's return from 40mm to 11mm  (40 - 11 = 29)

5g = 0.049N
................................................................
3.  0.049N   X   0.029m = 0.001421 J as return of the output magnet to start position.
................................................................
                            0.006125  Joules  = total input

                    INPUT TO OUTPUT

0.011368  J  /  0.006125  J = 1.856   output is 1.856 times greater than the input

Note... Using a shorter output stroke would also have decreased one of the input stroke lengths (this = less input energy).
A shorter output stroke, would also have kept a larger percentage of the output stroke force, within a higher force region
of the output force curve ? ? ?  There is an optimized output stroke distance, in terms of the ratio of those two displacements.
I'm not at all sure that I achieved that optimization here.

           P.S.
                  OK ayeaye, you have given some explanation of your meaning of asymmetry. Thanks / very good
               
              Not specifically or only about asymmetry of the field as in the overall shape of the field.
                     But rather.........
              about asymmetry in the magnitude of the pulling and or repelling force along a specific direction.
                 
                @ all reader, 

              (the magnitude (this is strength in this case) of a force and its direction, together,  are called a vector.
                        There are other kinds of vectors, not all vectors are force vectors.
                                    for example....  a different kind of vector would be .....
              The speed and direction of an airplane, given together are the vector of its travel.


             The maximum  "asymmetry"  in magnetic forces around permanent magnets, occurs at 90 degree
             relationships between two or more magnets.  0 degrees, 90 degrees, 180 degrees, 270 degrees

                  peace out
                         floor



Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 09, 2020, 09:28:03 PM
                  This is a design from 2017, Feb.

@  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5d7ip9

It uses only two magnets, is quite powerful and is also one of the earliest of the
designs presented by me (post "Twist Drive" experiments).

Probably over looked by most of the people who check in on /  follow this topic.

What it does is quite simple  (O.U.).   Why it works   is / would  be difficult to to understand,
without a knowledge of the whole trek of this topic under ones belt.

                   best wishes
                              floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on January 10, 2020, 01:47:16 AM
Yes Floor I remember the twist drive but as I remember about my experiments is resetting for a second cycle takes a good bit of power. I keep saying
 1. first we have the set/setup part which is often very easy but requires work in.
2. Then we have the second part which is the power release part. and
3. Last we have the work in to reset so that we can repeat step 1 again.

Am I right Floor about the reset?

After 5 months my doctor finally agreed that my medicine is causing a good bit of my health problems. A little slow on the draw I would say for 6 doctors in the heart group.
Still very busy nursing my wife and keeping up with things. So no time for experimenting yet.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on January 10, 2020, 09:16:35 AM
Am I right Floor about the reset?

What are you talking about, there is nothing. No measurements, nothing. Not to talk overunity. Certain people (Floor and Citfta, if they are not the same person) want to get rid of me, because i'm inconvenient. I really measured overunity. In another thread.

Norman6538, be silent, don't say anything. See here is a conflict. Overunity is not important, authority is.

Floor, if you have something real, you show by measurements that there is overunity. You have not done that. If you do, i agree. This is what matters. All the talk and writing, no matter how convincing, doesn't matter, when it doesn't provide any evidence of overunity at all. And all the talk that i don't understand, doesn't matter either, sure i can see when overunity is measured, there is no way how i can deny. But so far, i have done it, and you have not.

I asked you to measure that there is no ordinary shielding in your or Cifta's experiment. You did not, i conclude that you cannot show that, and thus hide it. If you really see that you failed, be positive, admit it, and replicate my experiment. Do something good, and all will be good. If good is what you want.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 10, 2020, 08:44:08 PM
@Norman6538

The "twist drive"  is a good study / self teaching device.   One can look at it as input by the rotating manet, or as input by the sliding magnet.
Either way it has 3 work  inputs for only one work output.  Except... that there is an attraction along the sliding vector when the two magnets are at right angles.

Do what you need to do.  You guys take care of your self, and don't stress over the topic.

       regards
                  floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on January 10, 2020, 09:13:55 PM
Thanks Floor. I think you are on to something so I keep trying but its the measurements that count. I have seen overunity with several permanent magnet setups but not over 200% which is required to have enough extra to do the work in in these 3 steps because everybody has to have a self runner.....they will not accept measurements alone.

1. set
2. take out power 
3. reset to repeat step 1.

Norman

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 13, 2020, 07:14:40 PM
Preparations for the next magnet interactions measurement set


                     floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 13, 2020, 07:20:45 PM
Latest revisions of  two PDF files.

They help to answer the questions ...

what magnitude of force increments to use
                      and
how many measurements to make

when measuring the work / energy present in magnet interactions.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on January 13, 2020, 09:07:01 PM
WOW Floor. Very impressed and very anxious for the resulting numbers.
Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on January 15, 2020, 02:07:33 PM
Floor,

Please add to your paper, if you measure force with a pulley and weight, there are two forces that can be measured at any point. One corresponds to the minimum weight with which the weight still doesn't go up, and the other to the maximum weight with which the weight still doesn't go down. The real force is the average of these two forces, and the static friction of everything, including the pulley, is the half of the difference between these forces.

This is not my idea, i think it is known already from ancient times. Like whenever one uses some balancing scales that are not perfect, and have some friction.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 15, 2020, 08:52:00 PM
Floor,

The real force is the average of these two forces, and the static friction of everything, including the pulley, is the half
of the difference between these forces.


Thank you eyeeye, good input.

This is already  my standard practice when doing measurements.  However, when measuring in the higher force area
of the curve I find it makes too minor of a difference to do so.   

1. I move the sliding unit BACKWARD (against the weight) a short distance from where it seems to have reached equilibrium between the weight and the magnetic force and then re-release it.

2. Then I move the sliding unit FORWARD (against the magnetic force) a short distance from where it seems to have reached  equilibrium between the weight and the magnetic force and then re-release it.

Although I find that if makes little or no measurable difference in the higher force range, it typically results in an average which is derived from +- 1 degree to as much as +- 2 degrees in the lower force ranges  ( "lower force range" is  <=  25 grams).

                 best wishes
                      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 21, 2020, 07:45:42 PM


                             https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWld721Wk-Q

                         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on January 21, 2020, 11:06:01 PM
Floor, the youtube is so out of character that I suspect that you got hacked.

I have recovered a bit but my wife was back in the hospital for 5 days and now things have settled down enough to get a few hours back at the bench. So if that keeps up I should have some test results in a few days. I am waiting for the shoe glue to dry because some times hot glue to metal lets go but shoe glue really holds well. I'm trying to get power from repelling magnets by extracting a piece of metal between them releasing the repel work out. Now its up to the measurements...

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on January 22, 2020, 12:48:49 PM
Hi Norman,


I am not familiar with shoe glue but I have found two glues that seem to work well for my projects.  The first is Locktite GO 2.  It is heat resistant and waterproof and very strong.  I have not been able to get anything apart I have glued with it.  Only use it if you are sure you don't want to ever take apart again whatever you glue.  I have destroyed several magnets I glued with it when I tried to take them apart to reuse them.


The second glue I use is Goop.  It makes a pretty strong glue joint for holding things in place.  It is hard to pull straight apart but a strong twisting action will allow it to come apart.  Also the residue is like rubber cement and can be rubbed off whatever it is on.  It also stays somewhat pliable after drying so is good for projects where you might need a little flexibility.


Glad to hear you are on the mend.  Hope your wife is soon back to normal also.


Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on January 22, 2020, 04:54:47 PM
The shoe glue is just rubber cement. There are many such glues, but they are basically all the same, it's rubber in a solvent. When the solvent dries, what is left is rubber. It is strong enough for almost all purposes. Because it's rubber, it can also be later removed, but removing it is not that simple.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on January 23, 2020, 10:11:18 PM
@Norman6538

Keep getting stronger.
Stay chill.

   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 12, 2020, 08:10:57 PM
My test bench is set up, level and calibrated.   AT this point all that I am doing, are rough measurement sets and playing around with it ( just to warm up).

I still need to clean up / test the triple beam balance I recently acquired.  Thanks


In the interim I make this challenge to all readers....



                                                                                                                      CHALLENGE
         
In the method which I demonstrate, the output (by falling) work  is undone during each cycle, but, the input (by lifting) work is also undone during each cycle.  The output "work" is more than twice the input "work".

The operation you present, must be indefinitely cyclically repeatable. The use of levers and springs is permissible.  In short, demonstrate the cyclical lifting of a greater weight upon the long side of a lever by using a lesser weight upon the short side of that same lever or...... some other mechanically equivalent device which uses mechanical springs.

Mechanical output must exceed mechanical input in each cycle, even if  that mechanical output may be undone during each cycle (sums to zero). A mechanical spring or springs may be used in the device.  Remember however, the input mechanical "work" in each cycle, must always be less that the output mechanical "work" during that cycle.

            Meet or exceed the below, or at least exceed 1 to 1.
Cause 115 grams to be lifted 40 units of distance against gravity, by the lowering lowering of 100.75 grams 22 units of distance by gravity.
          In the exemplary demonstration I provide.......
The force ratio is 100.25 grams input to 115 grams output.
The mechanical displacement ratio is 22 units input to 40 units output.
                        The work in to work out ratio is....
      100.75g x 22 = 2216.5 input.   115g x 40 = 4600 output.
As I said (in my exemplary device), the work done both as the lifting and the falling is undone in each cycle.


        HERE @      https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7b3x9a

   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on February 13, 2020, 10:15:20 AM
I must say that i used matchboxes in my experiment, to put a big magnet under an angle vertically. The key is that there has to be three points of support, in such a way that when trying to move the upper corner of the magnet horizontally, there is enough resistance in both directions.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on February 13, 2020, 01:52:51 PM
Excellent workmanship Floor but I don't get this point. You said

"As I said (in my exemplary device), the work done both as the lifting and the falling is undone in each cycle."

To me the basic cycle pattern is
1. set the device into potential work out which requires some work in.
2. that work out is released and can be seen and measured.
3. reset the device so that 1-3 can be repeated  which requires some work in.

Please help me understand this a little more.
Thanks for all of your diligent work.
Norman

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 14, 2020, 11:44:30 PM
@Norman6538

The device is sitting there..

          As in the video, starting position.

There is a 115 gram weight hanging from the rotating unit's pulley. 
That weight is in its HIGHEST POSITION (0 degrees of rotation on the rotating unit's scale).
Magnetic force between the two magnets, is holding it in that highest position.
This is because the force to cause the rotating magnet to rotate to the vertical and 0 degree position is is at its
maximum. 
This is because the rotating and the sliding magnets are nearly touching. 
The closer these two magnets are to one another the more force there is to cause that rotation.


!. INPUT .... Pushing upon the sliding action (with the finger) lifts the 105 grams 22 units of distance (via the pulley benieth the sliding unit).
Actually this is only 101.75 grams lifted, considering that there is a counter weight that pulls / keeps the thread
that connects the sliding unit to the sliding unit, scale dial pulley. 
The COUNTER WEIGHT thread wraps in the opposite direction on the sliding unit, scale dial pulley, and keeps the thread taught.
(opposite wrapping direction to the thread connecting the SLIDING UNIT to the sliding unit, scale dial pulley,
That counter weight is 4.25 grams  (105 g minus 4.25 grams =100.75 grams).

That pushing of the sliding unit, with the finger also separates the sliding magnet from the rotating magnet

2. Output # 1...  The weight upon the Rotating unit falls.
This is because the two magnets are now more distant from one another.
That weight is 115 grams and it falls 40 units of distance.
This output occurs at the SAME TIME as does the input from the finger push.

3. Output # 2 occurs as the force from the finger is released (the sliding unit weight falls to its original position).
This output occurs at the same time as does the lifting of the rotating magnet
(by magnetic force between the two magnets) as the falling of the weight benieth the
sliding unit draws the sliding unit magnet back toward the rotating unit magnet.

   best wishes
                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on February 15, 2020, 02:40:44 AM
Floor thanks for your explanation.
This is how I understand it now.

  UOW is units of work

1. push magnets together with 2216.5 UOW (100.75  grams 22 units distance)
    (105 g weight minus 4.25 grams =100.75 grams).

2. making  4200 UOW by twisting/rotating/lifting
    (105 grams lifted 40 units of distance)

3. release the sliding unit to reset itself (preloaded/balanced to pull back )
4. repeat step 1 using 2300 UOW from the jump start first step 1. above.

To make it a  self runner then lift 2 weights
1. 2300 UOW (57.5 g x 40 units) from the first step 1 above.
2. 1900 UOW (47.5 g x 40 units) totally extra for external use...

BUT  some of the 1900 UOW will have to be used for switching the weights
from lifted to using.....which I call switching.  That is the step that always snagged me.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on February 15, 2020, 07:53:17 PM
Floor I  quickly cobbled together your twist drive and got 11 units (1 washer) of work in to start the twisting/lifting giving 24 units of work out (2 washers) which gives 218% OU. Remember my work here is quick and dirty and between all of my nursing duties to my wife who has cancer but is progressing.
1. I used 2 stacks of RadioShack magnets with the hole in the center.
2. In the back of the photo are the 2 washers lifted.
3. To the right is the 1 washer that drops and activates the twisting/lifting work out.
4. I used a stainless steel bicycle spoke to make a crankshaft quick and dirty to rigidly hold the twisted magnet.
5. the box on the right limits the drop of the arm and washer at the point that max twist/lift is achieved.

I discovered that its best to start with the twisted magnet below level to get max twist/output because if it gets too high it will be stuck there. I don't think this is as well tuned as Floor's because if the magnets get closer than 1/8 in. they stick together so I put a spacer in between them as a stop. I think  I can tune this a little more but have limited time for that.

The the first photo is twisted/lifted up and you can see the 2 lifted washers in the back . And you can see the crankshaft that allows the twisting magnet to rotate. The second photo shows the 2 washers down and the untwisted magnet.
The magnet to the left that has the hole is pulled to the right  by the dropping single washer  twisting/lifting the 2 washers in the back. In the second photo you can see the magnet is tilted down. In the first photo that twisted/lifted magnet is tilted up in the back and you can see the 2 lifted washers in the back.

In summary as the magnet on the left moves right it twists the magnet on the right lifting the 2 washers hooked behind to the crankshaft.


Thank you so much Floor for all of your diligence and for sharing this with all of us. This makes me very excited. I can taste a self running machine in  my mouth.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on February 16, 2020, 02:14:05 AM
I cobbled together another Floor twist drive device and it measures 533% OU. That surely is enough extra to repeat the process and handle the losses in the switching.

details
The activating weight is a small washer 1/4 oz. and it moves up and down 6/8 in.

The lifted weight is 2 1/2 oz. washers that are lifted 8/8 in. So the activating units are .25 x 6 = 1.5 units in
 and the lifted units are 8/8 in. up x 2 washers x  .5 oz. washers giving 8 units out. giving 533% OU.  But for margin of error purposes I will count on 300% which is plenty.

And in this embodiment I used a stack of 4 RadioShack magnets that move to twist a stack of 2 of the same magnets. Since the mag field is much stronger with the extra magnets I did not let the magnets get closer than 3/16 in. to reduce the attraction when twisted causing more work to reset for another cycle.

So to make this self run with human switching replace 1 of the .5  oz washers with 2 1/4 oz washers and humanly place the lifted 14/ oz washers where they are needed to activate the twisting/lifting.

And to make it self run we need a good watchmaker of which I am not... But I'll try.

Floor you really have a winner.


Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on February 16, 2020, 11:10:38 AM
https://youtu.be/4LgEvwpmuwM (https://youtu.be/4LgEvwpmuwM)
Is it right?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on February 16, 2020, 01:44:19 PM
https://youtu.be/4LgEvwpmuwM (https://youtu.be/4LgEvwpmuwM)
Is it right?
  Many of these magnetic tracks abound but it takes a push to get it started before the magnetic track and therefore it will not jump from one track to another. He claims it goes up hill and that is good if it can be replicated by others.

Floor has the best thing going for now as far as I know but keep it simple like I did. Floor wanted to get good measurements and that he did very well.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 17, 2020, 03:04:42 AM
https://youtu.be/4LgEvwpmuwM (https://youtu.be/4LgEvwpmuwM)
Is it right?

!. Yes You can get them to go up hill.
2. Yes you can get them to release at the end, but only because they fall from the table
or at least lower than the starting height.
3. I don't know exactly how those magets are arranged, but he started of by saying
they are repelled at the start end the ramp.
4. He didn't sat it would self loop, and he knows it will not.

   best wishes
          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 17, 2020, 03:11:04 AM
                              CHALLANGE
In the method which I demonstrate, the output (by falling) work  is undone during each cycle, but, the input (by lifting) work is also undone during each cycle.  The output "work" is more than twice the input "work".

The operation you present, must be indefinitely cyclically repeatable. The use of levers and springs is permissible.  In short, demonstrate the cyclical lifting of a greater weight upon the long side of a lever by using a lesser weight upon the short side of that same lever or...... some other mechanically equivalent device which uses mechanical springs.

Mechanical output must exceed mechanical input in each cycle, even if that mechanical output may be undone during each cycle (sums to zero). A mechanical spring or springs may be used in the device.  Remember however, the input mechanical "work" in each cycle, must always be less that the output mechanical "work" during that cycle.

            Meet or exceed the below, or at least exceed 1 to 1.
Cause 115 grams to be lifted 40 units of distance against gravity, by the lowering lowering of 100.75 grams 22 units of distance by gravity.
          In the exemplary demonstration I provide.......
The force ratio is 100.75 grams input to 115 grams output.
The mechanical displacement ratio is 22 units input to 40 units output.
                        The work in to work out ratio is....
      100.75g x 22 = 2216.5 input.   115g x 40 = 4600 output.
As I said (in my exemplary device), the work done both as the lifting and the falling is undone in each cycle.

And what else ?

During the the lifting of the sliding unit weight, 101 grams of finger force, is only required at the initial point of lifting (while the sliding unit scale dial reads 22 degrees and the rotating scale dial reads 40 degrees).  The force that needs to be applied to cause the lifting of the sliding unit weight drops to ZERO GRAMS, once the rotating magnet is 90 degrees off from the sliding magnet and the sliding magnet is at zero distance from the rotating magnet. 

It requires no force (no weight upon the sliding unit pulley) to hold the 115 grams weight when the rotating magnet weight object is at its full height (zero degrees on the rotating scale dial), while the sliding magnet is at its nearest proximity to the rotating magnet (zero degrees upon the sliding unit scale dial).  Actually, it requires LESS THAN ZERO GRAMS of force (as the sliding unit weight), because there is a slight attraction of the sliding magnet to the rotating magnet along the line of its travel (at very near distance) and when at 90 degrees to the rotating magnet.

also......

The sliding unit input finger force curve (from 101 grams to 0 grams) results in an average applied finger force, in lifting the sliding unit weight during the course of the sliding magnet's travel away from the rotating magnet which, I estimate as between 70 and 80 grams average applied finger force over the 22 degrees of sliding magnet travel (curve based on 5, 20 gram weight decrease increments over the 22 degree travel).

This is at most, 80 x 22 = 1760 to the rotating magnet's 4600.   
2.6136...  x 1700 = 4600
4600 - 1700 =  2900
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on February 17, 2020, 03:30:17 AM
Hey Norman

I think you might be correct, in that before the full cycle is done
the work is about 5 to 1 or 500%.
....   .....  ..... .....
I have a VCR spindle and rotor that I have been contemplateing using
as a spindle for a replication of your pendulum deign. But the more i think about it
the more it seem that that design will sum to zero.  Although If well built, It might coast for a deceptively / tantalizingly long time.  But then again, one doesn't know some times till one tries.

  best wishes
       floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on February 17, 2020, 07:05:09 AM
https://youtu.be/4LgEvwpmuwM (https://youtu.be/4LgEvwpmuwM)
Is it right?

No. There is only one way to show overunity in such case without measurement. It is when there is no initial force to the magnet, and it is brought to the field by speed. If the speed is then increased after leaving the field, then there is a gain of energy. And on an even surface, making the surface uneven only makes calculations more complicated, and shouldn't be done at all if we want to do it without calculations.

In that case, the magnet was released when it had a force to it, somewhat further from the beginning of the magnets chain. Thus the condition of no initial force was not satisfied.

A chain of magnets against each other pole to pole, should make one long magnet, when all magnets are oriented in the direction of the chain. Then the moving magnet also accelerates when moving towards the end of the chain, but decelerates after reaching the end of the chain. Or when the magnets are at a greater distance from each other, then all propulsion comes from the first magnet of the chain, in the field of which the moving magnet was initially put.

Not certain whether the chain of magnets was such, different strength of magnets and their different orientation in some configuration may cause different effects, then also overunity may be possible. But this doesn't matter, as the experiment was not correctly done, and was not valid.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on February 17, 2020, 07:58:06 AM
https://youtu.be/7pxm3Edi8nM (https://youtu.be/7pxm3Edi8nM)
https://youtu.be/uvutLTdtaWY (https://youtu.be/uvutLTdtaWY)
Yes, you are all right. :)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on February 20, 2020, 02:02:08 PM
Since my health is better and my wife has less nursing requirements from me I have been able to make 4 other devices and each has taught me a lot.  I have to clean up some of my quick and dirty rapid prototype crap to refine my measurements and I have applied the Butch Lafonte attract ballanced with repel to compensate for the attraction when the magnet has twisted and lifted. I can unset that twist with a tiny unit of work when Butch Lafonte balanced well. I finally got that idea last night about dark and cobbled it together quickly.

More in a few days if all goes well.
Get on it guys its great fun.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on February 22, 2020, 10:39:26 PM
I am on version 6 and I made a variable lever with 3 different dowel diameters to be able to refine the power to set and reset the twist drive and this is what I measured today.
1. The device is self setting. ie meaning take my had off and it goes from unset to set and twist and lift a small washer 12.5 cm.
2.  then to unset and unlock from the twisted attraction it takes the same washer 2 cm of drop.
3. so that clearly gives 10 extra units of work for the switching necessary to make it self run.

The extra work out is more than enough.
Next I will begin my clock  work to make it switch from lifting to resetting mode making it a self runner with extra power out too.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on February 23, 2020, 12:07:50 PM
Quote
Since my health is better and my wife has less nursing requirements from me

I'm glad for you of course, but ..
Good to you there ... I envy.  In our country no one will hear you.Nobody needs anyone but himself. Either indifferently will pass by, or say even die, I don't care. :)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on February 23, 2020, 02:50:25 PM
In our country no one will hear you.Nobody needs anyone but himself. Either indifferently will pass by, or say even die, I don't care. :)

Yes i would add to that, expressing one's hostility whenever getting a chance, that's sad.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 05, 2020, 07:28:48 PM
@All readers

I posted this on another topic yesterday..
     But this is a slightly modified version   /  Typo corrected   /   re worded in a few spots



                                                              THE TWIST DRIVE

Twist Drive is the name I gave to a particular class of devices / magnet interactions, which embody specific sets of interactions between magnets. 

My own explorations of magnet interaction first began with a question.  It seems easier to separate two attracted magnets from each another by twisting them apart, rather than by pulling them directly away from each other.  Does it actually require less work to separate the magnets by twisting or is it that there is a kind of magnetic equivalent to leverage, which makes the separating easier, even though technically speaking, the amount of work done is the same either way ?  Pursuit of the answer to that question was a door way into a 7 years long exploration of magnets, their interactions and physics. 

I built my first two test benches, just to examine the differences between sliding, twisting and directly pulling magnets from each other.  The separation by twisting version I called the "twist drive".

I first considered the phrase "Torque Drive", which would have been a name with more  appeal.  I chose instead, to christen it with the some what dorky "Twist Drive".  This was specifically to turn off and / or discourage attention from specific types of viewers / readers.  I'm not trying to create or promote a fad and  my videos and internet time are not monetized.  It is interesting to note, an individual (unknown to me) produced a YouTube video with a diagram of the device, wherein that presenter termed the device as the "Torque Drive".  I'm guessing that presenter expected more views and attention from the sexier name.  Yet another presenter of the "Twist Drive" chose to refer to it as "floor's magnetic torque amplifier".  Note however this presenter chose to present his own and other variations of / on the device, while never actually presenting a replication of the Twist Drive itself.

As an aside.
During the course of these explorations, I arrived at something of an understanding of the Bloch wall model.  The Bloch wall is a molecular structure found in permanent magnets, which provides a kind of magnetic shielding between the magnetic domains within those magnets.  That shielding is not an over unity event in itself, but it does represent / is a form of  magnetic shielding, known to exist in nature.

Now returning to the Twist Drive as topic.
Until recently, I had not fully understood, nor did I have a very complete explanation of, or theory of  why the twist drive interactions could result in over unity.  I was very much so misinformed as to just how substantial the difference between the attracting force and repelling force available between a given two magnets can be under certain conditions.

Be all that as it may and in contrast to its simple appearance, the Twist Drive itself, embodies a complex and extremely difficult to understand set of magnet interactions.  In some specific configurations, the twist drive demonstrates magnet interactions (energy exchanges) which result in a NET energy gain of ZERO (possible using springs).  This is the common view of magnet interactions, and one which is held by scientific convention as the only possibility.  In other specific configurations, the Twist Drive demonstrates dramatic    UNDER UNITY    results, wherein, convention holds that this simply cannot be.  Under unity is just as anomalous as is over unity (if there is no explanation as to where the energy goes).  To my mind, under unity and over unity are equivalent in value as proof of over unity, in that, the one reveals the path to the other.  Other configurations demonstrate  OVER UNITY  (more mechanical work out than is input).


                                                       THE TWIST DRIVE

I have insisted that in order that the reader can know whether the device works as claimed, she or he should see for their self.  Also ... tunnel vision by an experimenter is generally the rule, rather than the exception.  Peer review is essential to the scientific process.  If the claims are exceptional, then exceptional proofs are also needed.  Not only this, but faking results is too easily done in a video format.  Believers only clog up the process.  But please also understand that I DO consider beliefs of a certain order to be of value in one's life, over all.
...
The Twist Drive is not a device which utilizes the kind of magnetic force redirection (magnetic force shielding) which most readers of the "Magnets Motion and Measurement" topic may be familiar with.  It is a "different kind of animal".  Its over unity functioning is dependent upon the fact that the attraction possible between a given two magnets, is typically greater than the repulsion possible between those same two magnets.
...
The shapes of magnets, have major effects upon the how they interact with one another.  The magnets / magnet shapes which I have been using (3/8 by 7/8 by 1 7/8 inch ceramic wafer magnets, poles on the broad faces), give specifically these results.   Edge to edge.
...
Magnetic forces, whether attracting or repelling ones, increase when the distance between a given two magnets is decreased.  Those changes in force magnitude to distance are not linear.

                                Note that RO stands for rotating while SL stands for sliding.

In regard to the forces which motivate the SLIDING of  the SL.........
                                   
In an attraction mode, the rate of change in force magnitude to the change in distance (specifically at VERY near) is nearly linear, (nearly vertical  / over a very small distance) and the rate APPROACHES an inverse square relationship as the magnets get nearer to one another ( from very near until touching).

In a repelling mode, the rate of change in force magnitude to change in distance (specifically at VERY near) is nearly linear, (nearly horizontal over a very small distance) and the rate APPROACHES an inverse square relationship as the magnets get nearer to one another (until touching).

In attraction or repelling mode,  the rate of change in force magnitude to change in distance (specifically at far distances) become nearly linear (nearly horizontal) , and the rate APPROACHES an inverse square relationship.
...
The attraction possible between a given two magnets, is almost always greater than the repulsion possible between those same two magnets.

The DIFFERENCE in the force magnitude between when in an attraction mode and when in a repulsion mode, of a given two magnet, at a given same distance, is greatest when the magnets, are at either a near or very near distance.

The differences in force available during attraction modes and repulsion modes are due to changes in the magnetic polar orientations, of the magnetic domain structures within the magnets  (molecular and atomic domain structures).

                                                       THE TWIST DRIVE

When in repulsion, a given two magnets tend to weaken (demagnetize) each other.  When in attraction the same two magnets tend to strengthen (magnetize) each other.

There is a threshold in coercive magnetic force magnitude which must be reached, before domain reorientation become a major factor.   That force threshold is reached when the ceramic magnets I use, are in near proximity to one another.  The use of differing magnet materials, and the proportion of the strengths of the magnets used (in relationship to each other) will affect the magnet proximity
at which domain reorientations figure prominently.

There are other major factors, such as magnet shape which I do not considered here.
...
                                Note that RO stands for rotating while SL stands for sliding.

In regard to the forces which motivate the ROTATION of  the RO.........

During the rotation of the RO magnet in relationship to the SL magnet, by the magnetic forces, 2 attraction forces and 2 repulsion forces are present and CONTRIBUTING TO the rotation, always. 
................................................
When the RO magnet is crossed at its middle by the SL magnet at 90 degrees ......

As the section of the RO magnet which is ABOVE SL rotates from 90 degrees off from parallel to
SL, toward parallel to SL, the balance between the attracting and repelling forces shifts. 

Simultaneously, as RO rotates, the balances in forces between the section of the RO magnet which is
BELOW SL also shift. 
................................................
Above SL, and during ONE direction of rotation over a 180 degree course from parallel to again parallel.... attraction increases as repulsion decreases, while below SL, attraction decreases as repulsion increases as. 

Above SL, and during the OPPOSITE direction of rotation over a 180 degree course from parallel to again parallel... attraction decreases as repulsion increases, while below SL,  attraction increases as repulsion decreases.

These interactions are very complex, and words alone become utterly insufficient to describe them.  Watch the videos first or you will likely never grasp it. 
................................................
During the course of the RO rotation there are attracting forces (N/S and S/N) which contribute to the RO rotation.  N/S magnet pole orientations support N/S/N/S domain orientations.  N/S/N/S domain orientation are there by increased.  This in turn STRENGTHENS the attracting element's contribution to the rotational forces. 

Simultaneously there are repelling forces (N/N and S/S) which contribute to the RO rotation.  N/N and S/S magnet orientations tend to reduce N/S/N/S domain polar orientations.  This in turn WEAKENS the repulsive element's contribution to the rotation of RO. 


                                                       THE TWIST DRIVE

Up to the point at which RO is parallel to SL,  ONLY SOME of the forces act to increase / maintain N/S/N/S domain orientations.  Other forces (although still contributing to the rotation of RO) act to reduce N/S/N/S domain orientations.

When the SL magnet is aligned parallel to the  RO magnet (the rotation is completed), and the magnets are in attraction as both a  N to S alignment and a S to N alignment.  Now there are ONLY attractions and ALL OF THE FORCES act to, increase / maintain N/S/N/S domain orientations.  Forces are optimized  in terms of  causing the attraction of  magnet SL to magnet RO (straight line in a plane 90 degrees to the plane of RO rotation).

Finally, when the RO to SL, parallel alignment, results in a N to N and a S to S alignment  (both poles repelling),  the FORCE OF REPULSION is considerably weaker over the course of  the SL magnets travel (straight line),      than would be     the FORCE OF ATTRACTION present over the course of the SL magnets travel (straight line), if the RO to SL parallel alignment,  was instead N to S and S to N (both poles attracting).
...

                                                  peace out
                                                             floor


@ all readers



Addemdum   


1. The sliding magnet (SL) is far from the Rotating magnet (RO).  RO is at a right angle to SL
    RO is practically free to rotate (because it is distant from SL)

2. RO is rotated 90 degrees against the very tiny magnetic forces.  (either a clock wise or counter clock wise direction,                (WORK IN)
depending upon magnet polar orientations).  What matter is that SL is now far from RO, but also parallel to and in ATTRACTION
to RO (SL barely wants to slide toward RO).

3. SL is pulled by attraction toward RO, almost touches RO.                                                                                                MAJOR  (WORKOUT)

4. RO is rotated back to 90 degrees off from SL against magnetic forces to  position # 1 again                                         MAJOR  (WORK IN).

5. SL is pulled to far from RO while SL is at 90 degrees off from RO.  This is against small attracting forces which are due to domain re-orientations.   (WORK IN)


           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 05, 2020, 07:31:20 PM
@ All readers

Video link  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d   

   best wishes
             floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on March 06, 2020, 08:20:17 AM
Quote
I built my first two test benches, just to examine the differences between sliding, twisting and directly pulling magnets from each other.
And does this difference exist?
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 06, 2020, 12:26:37 PM
When entering the field until the neutral position by one path, and exiting by another path, has different energy, then this is because of non-Coulomb irregularity, a kind of asymmetry. Twisting is also a part of the path of the poles.

But you saying that they are also Newton magnets makes it all void, because Newton model is the same as Coulomb model, the only difference is how one calls it.

And when in addition you are saying that you are not into research of asymmetry, well, then in effect it seems to mean that what you are doing has nothing to do with overunity.

One should understand what is the Coulomb model, one may also call it Newton model  https://web.archive.org/web/20100709205321/http://geophysics.ou.edu/solid_earth/notes/mag_basic/mag_basic.html . A rectangular magnet or magnet with any shape with two poles, is modeled by two point-shape poles, both having completely spherical field. Because the fields of all poles of all magnets are perfectly spherical, entering and exiting the field of any pole has always the same energy, no matter how many magnets there are, what is their shape or positions, or how they move. For that reason there cannot be overunity in the Coulomb model.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on March 06, 2020, 01:14:19 PM
And does this difference exist?
;D
Ideal body = sphere  to square body

Mono - versus dipol

Inside/outside versus N/S
Physics is based by geometrical and arithmetical thinking : RAUM/SPACE - ZEIT/TIME
Gauss "volume/area" x time to " Ampere law"


permanent/periodic : also our SUN ( die Sonne) hat ihre Periode(n) ( luna-/female menustration period)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: kolbacict on March 06, 2020, 02:50:34 PM
.Impossible to delete my own message?

p.s. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d
We have these videos blocked.  :'(
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 06, 2020, 03:42:30 PM
p.s. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d
We have these videos blocked.  :'(

Too bad, get a free VPN. I tried, it doesn't play through proxy, maybe someone succeeds to do that. I can watch it. Otherwise, dailymotion may not be a good place for these videos.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 07, 2020, 06:14:46 PM
It gets stranger


;D
Ideal body = sphere  to square body

Mono - versus dipol

Inside/outside versus N/S
Physics is based by geometrical and arithmetical thinking : RAUM/SPACE - ZEIT/TIME
Gauss "volume/area" x time to " Ampere law"


permanent/periodic : also our SUN ( die Sonne) hat ihre Periode(n) ( luna-/female menustration period)

Hi LankaTV

   Yes
   Shape matters
      very much

       But I'm not sure what shape is optimal.
                  maybe square ?

   Please find the attached PDF file

   4 FILES
   3 JPG
   1 PDF

               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 07, 2020, 07:18:28 PM
Why these magnets try to become parallel, this is perfectly explainable by the Coulomb model. Opposite poles attract. Nothing strange, no overunity.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on March 08, 2020, 11:38:16 AM
Why these magnets try to become parallel, this is perfectly explainable by the Coulomb model. Opposite poles attract. Nothing strange, no overunity.



JLNaudin Lab " push and pull" experiment and measure by a balance :
the difference between repulsion activity and attraction activity  !

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm)

You may notice that the tangential force is LESS THAN the axial repulsive force. This is confirmed by a computer simulation and calculation.




Is it on earth  same or more attractive to have the rotor vertical or horizontal  ? On Luna : 1/6 g  !

Permanent magnets have North + South polarisation  ( di-/bipolar) ! Electromagnets ? Dis-/advantage !?

From one rotor/stator on one shaft to multiple rotors/stators on one shaft  !
The poles a-/symetrical ratio on stator to rotor  ?

We can amplify each permanent magnet force by compression aerial  360° activity to 180° or 90° or less activity area :magnetic shielding
Dis-/advantage ?

Wrapping the permanent magnets ( to matnetic diode) with em coils/foils and neutralize or amplify the pm output ! Dis-/advantage ?!

Does your "Coulomb model" ayeaye in controled manner respect all the differences here  ?

Is the decay force from Cobalt,Neodymium,Samarium included in your resulta  ?

Sincerely
OCWL


p.s.:

Radiactivity was discovered past Monsieur Coulomb his life !

Magnetism and Curie-temperature relationship ?



 in german : https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb) universal or partial ? Only partial : electrostatics without magnetostatics ! Influenz as electrostatic induction !


                  to https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCoulombsches_Gesetz (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCoulombsches_Gesetz)




                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetostatics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetostatics)
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 08, 2020, 12:43:03 PM
JLNaudin Lab " push and pull" experiment and measure by a balance :
the difference between repulsion activity and attraction activity  !

No, i mean that the fact itself that the magnet rotates so that it becomes parallel to the other magnet, doesn't by itself mean a difference from the Coulomb model. And doesn't mean that there is any overunity, because there cannot be any overunity in the Coulomb model.

On the drawing below is that rotation modeled by the Coulomb model. As one can see, there is nothing strange, the opposite poles just attract to each other and cause the rotation.

The Coulomb model of that setup looks like that. All poles are modeled only as points, no matter what shape they have, or how flat or wide they are. This point is theoretically a point with the greatest force inside the pole, that can be roughly the same as the center of gravity of the pole area.

All of these poles in the Coulomb model have a perfectly spherical field that decreases inverse of square of distance, just as the force of an electrostatic charge, or the gravity in the Newton theory.

This doesn't mean that there cannot be overunity in that setup, as you say Naudin found. But only when there are differences from the Coulomb model, that is non-Coulomb irregularities.

It was not shown by measurements or anyhow, that in that setup there are differences from the Coulomb model. The claim that two magnets rotating becoming parallel, is anyhow unusual, or may indicate any overunity, is simply wrong and doesn't make sense. This is all what i wanted to say.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on March 08, 2020, 12:46:41 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_stress_tensor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_stress_tensor)


to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force)




to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence)  right side ; the Minkowski model
There is FM = Frequency Modulation and AM= Amplitude Modulation and SM=  Space Modulation and TM= Time Modulation included,Makro-and Mikro- mono-/poly- dimensional
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 08, 2020, 12:59:12 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_stress_tensor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_stress_tensor)

to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force)

This is all about the Maxwell equations, for magnetism these differ from the Coulomb model, and it thus may be possible that also Maxwell equations show overunity in some setup.

Again, this is not what i said, i said that when something is explainable by the Coulomb model, then the mere fact of that happening doesn't mean that there is any overunity, or any possibility of overunity.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on March 08, 2020, 01:09:48 PM
Okay,but Coulomb model + Leon Foucault pendulum external influence ?
Pendulum variable  length( and thickness)  ~ two magnets variable distance ( and specific  material Gauss per volume)

Domain-sphere nano-distances effect !

Aligning from a permanent magnets compared aligning from an electromagnet with core or without ( air-core) !
MHD tube/channel to linear motor to "magic ring"( US Army,Leupold)


We are living in a Meta-material era ! Impossibilities making possible !
And Meta-effect on/off switch : a(b)-/normal  ! a(b)-/conventional
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 08, 2020, 01:41:48 PM
Okay,but Coulomb model + Leon Foucault pendulum external influence ?

I don't think there would be any noticeable effect, But even if energy can be obtained from the Earth's rotation, that is not yet overunity.

But everything that differs from the Coulomb model, yes there is a possibility. As my experiment also shows, that is now replicated.

Coulomb was eating dinner. But he found that eating alone doesn't give him enough satisfaction. So he decided to create a model. The model he created is since then known as the Coulomb model.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on March 08, 2020, 02:01:03 PM
Royal Academie of Sciences,Paris/France : the members were often royal,part from the crown council ( Dukes,Earls,et cet.)
Beside Laplace,Ampere,Coulomb also an Biot and an Savart !
I mean you know about the academy decision related " ppm".
There has been a french thinker and "futurist",not-membered by this academy,whose claimed to have a water-motor concept,with an " impossible"- output result !
He got help by his final development of a real demontration-able prototype ,I do not know anymore by which : Biot or Savart  !?

There are virtual " ...... model"-s and there are physical "Think-Model"-Unikate/Prototypes !
And " Philologic House"- Haeretiker  !


Bon appetit  !

Salut
OCWL

p.s.: is there not a natural switch/spring-effect in action when you take a NS-Kompass/Bussola  ?
        How useable/transformable in/as pm-em motor  ?

       Heat pumps are now transformable to thermodynamic  cycle engines with PROCESS POWER OUTPUT ≥ 1
      But yes, it is an ambiental environment interchange and conversion process =      open cycle = steady flow converter


# 488 : Coulomb - scheme : with two springs ( Lord Kelvin !) altered ?
https://books.google.pt/books?id=pEYxDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT114&lpg=PT114&dq=lord+kelvin+spring&source=bl&ots=fNsDtOJn_0&sig=ACfU3U2C5U9n3TK76USjUKOEsbBO3U_jyw&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi9vPinoovoAhURdBQKHTx5A1gQ6AEwBHoECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=lord%20kelvin%20spring&f=false (https://books.google.pt/books?id=pEYxDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT114&lpg=PT114&dq=lord+kelvin+spring&source=bl&ots=fNsDtOJn_0&sig=ACfU3U2C5U9n3TK76USjUKOEsbBO3U_jyw&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi9vPinoovoAhURdBQKHTx5A1gQ6AEwBHoECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=lord%20kelvin%20spring&f=false)


             bimetalic !
             DE3047757 and DE3048277 usefull to incorporate  ? For laboratory experiments  = "model"

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=9&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19820715&CC=DE&NR=3048277A1&KC=A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=9&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19820715&CC=DE&NR=3048277A1&KC=A1)


https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=10&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19820715&CC=DE&NR=3047757A1&KC=A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=10&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19820715&CC=DE&NR=3047757A1&KC=A1)



Internal cw or ccw angle velocity/ angle momentum versus external cw or ccw angle velocity/momentum :

           a-/ synchron  = syntonization = in Resonanz-Stadium erbringen,Risc : Resonanz-Catastrophe
         ~ " gold melts in roomtemperature" Selbst-Zertruemmerung/material-volume-implosion

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 16, 2020, 08:53:55 PM
The TD interactions when......

1. SL (sliding) is limited to from 0 to 22 deg. SL indicator scale.
2. RO  is limited to from 0 deg RO scale (a right angle to SL) to 30 deg
(off from Right angle).    Note SL is repelled from RO at 30 deg. RO.

cycle is
1. RO is at 30 deg. RO scale    while     SL is at 22 deg. SL scale.
2. weight is applied to SL pulley string in decreasing increments of weight.
3. simultaneously, 135 grams is lifted on the RO weight Pulley, from 30 to 0 deg.
RO scale.
4. RO and the 135 grams are latched at 0 deg. RO (right angle to SL.
5. SL is pulled back to 22 deg. SL while RO  remains at 0 deg. RO.
6. RO weight object falls 30 deg. RO. while SL remains at 22 deg. (SL scale).
This returns the RO  magnet to 30 deg (RO  scale).

yield around 40 % more work out than in.

               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on March 16, 2020, 09:19:03 PM
Thanks for the numbers Floor. But what is the distance traveled? Work has to include the distance. By the way Floor are you in the US?
Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 16, 2020, 09:50:56 PM
@Norman6538

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg541917/#msg541917

0.27930 mm of weight bottle travel per degree on either the RO or the SL scale.

I will post the actual measurement set values. I don't have them (note book) with me
right now.

US yes.

Earlier in this topic you were referring to a "stick spot" in the twist drive interactions. 
Were you referring to, when the two magnets are at a right angle to one another ?

                regards
                          floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on March 17, 2020, 01:19:31 AM
Floor asked "Were you referring to, when the two magnets are at a right angle to one another ?
   regards    floor "

When the magnets are at right angles moving toward or away from each other there is no resistance to movement but when close together they want to twist so  they  line up apposite poles attracted. And when they twist there is attraction. More twist gives more attraction. The Brute force/weight to separate them when they are twisted is very close to the work the twist lifted.  But I have enhancements to reduce that.

So pushing together when at right angles is almost nothing but then to undo that and separate there is attraction which I call the "sticky spot". 

So when it comes to measurement I need to know the weight and distance that it takes to push them together and to separate them and compare that with the work lifted.

I have made 10 different machines and they all measure over 200% out over in.\

Thanks again Floor for sharing this with us.


Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 17, 2020, 09:22:49 AM
Norman, you evidently have never tried to measure overunity, or then show one case when you did.

Like your Lafonte scissors. This was just balancing forces, balancing forces is not overunity. And all your setup can be explained by the Coulomb model. Unless you measure that it needs less force to close the scissors in one way than in the other way. But you never tried to do that. And this is evidently also not what Lafonte tried to show.

I understand all the fascination of playing with magnets, and all the skill and knowledge it requires, but just playing with magnets no matter how complicated, has nothing to do with overunity, Unless overunity is what you want to show, but this is evidently not what you and Floor have ever tried to do.

I'm sorry, i understand all the resentment, and all your effort you put into this, But if i see that someone is just wrong, i feel that i have to say that. Why not instead try to really show overunity, then all your efforts are not in vain. If your aim really is overunity, i possibly cannot know.

One may think that i am here for some selfish goal, and i just try to convince others that my experiments are right and others are wrong. No this is not right at all, i'm an honest person. All i do is for overunity research, and as this forum is about overunity, then this is what i think is right to do. And i don't think that no one else is ever right, like what Naudin said that separating magnets side wise and front wise takes different energy, i think he was onto something, and this was really showing the difference from the Coulomb model.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on March 17, 2020, 02:32:26 PM
Ayeaye,


You are correct that in my video where I measured forces by using a digital fish scale I did not show the whole picture because I did not compare those forces with the distance traveled.


However Floor and Norman have both shown measurements including force and distance traveled.  Yet for some reason you continue to deny what they have shown.  In both of their testing they have shown the forces involved and the distances traveled.  Why you continue to say they haven't is a mystery.


You have said that you would rather theorize than experiment.  And that is fine if that is what you want to do.  For me personally I have learned a lot more from my testing and experiments than any theorizing.


All your posts about the Coulomb theory mean nothing if you can't demonstrate your theory.  And not to demean what you are doing but I really have no interest in the Coulomb theory or any other theory if it can't be demonstrated.


So I will ask again to please keep your theories to your own thread so we can concentrate on real experiments and testing.


Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 17, 2020, 03:19:41 PM
All your posts about the Coulomb theory mean nothing if you can't demonstrate your theory.  And not to demean what you are doing but I really have no interest in the Coulomb theory or any other theory if it can't be demonstrated.

That there is no overunity in the Coulomb model, should be clear by itself. What experiments to do to show that, i don't know, too easy to do a magnet experiment that corresponds to the Coulomb model, and has no overunity. See the V-gate experiments, there are plenty of such experiments done, no need for me to do one more. You can do the simplest experiment though, make an object to fall, you will see that it takes the same work that falling gives, to rise the object to the same height again. This is because the Earth's gravitational field is spherical.

I have seen their measurements yes. Like they show that it takes very little energy to move two magnets near each other, but when they are near each other, one magnet starts to turn, and this gives much more energy than the moving took. And they think that this is overunity. No it is not. The same as moving two attracting magnets closer to each other takes very little energy, but when they attract, this generates much more energy.

People don't understand what overunity is. There are five conditions. Initial speed, no initial force, accelerating when going through the field, exiting the field, the speed when exiting the field is greater than the speed when entering. And all have to be there, for there to be overunity. One is missing, and there is no overunity. Even when all other requirements are completely satisfied.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 17, 2020, 05:12:51 PM
@ eye eye

Not every one is an experimenter, I accept that and have no judgment upon those who's
talent / skill is else where.

Funny how we some times see what we expect to see rather than what is in front of our eyes.

You must not have looked at the drawings "strange 1, 2 and three" closely, maybe glossed over them .

While it is obvious that the two magnets will end up parallel and in a N to S and S to N attraction.

Did you not see, that the magnet poles which are nearest to one another,  in each quadrant, seemingly should compel those two magnets to rotate the opposite direction from which they do?


https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg543594/#msg543594

         regards
                 floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 17, 2020, 05:49:15 PM
You must not have looked at the drawings "strange 1, 2 and three" closely, maybe glossed over them .

You draw a Coulomb model of that setup, and you see that the magnet should rotate exactly how it does. How it looks like when you draw the magnets, is not the same how the fields look like. What the most causes the rotation there, may be the centers of the magnets, as the fields are strongest there.

Anyway, this setup corresponds to the Coulomb model, and there thus cannot be overunity.

Unless you see how the fields of the poles differ from spherical, can explain how this can cause different energy when rotating in different directions, and measure that the energy when rotating in different directions, is different. I cannot say that it certainly isn't, it may be, but you have not measured it, neither showed the fields of the magnets and explained how they may cause different energy.

Also, when moving it counter-clockwise, and then clockwise, the forces are the same. So moving like this very unlikely has overunity, for overunity the forces on different paths have to be different.

May be, when moving counter-clockwise 90 degrees, and then counter-clockwise 90 degrees again. Then how you see it, the sides of the magnets should repel in the right direction. I'm not sure whether this results in any overunity when seeing the actual fields, maybe, maybe not. This should be shown and measured.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 17, 2020, 10:53:09 PM
@ eye eye

I'm not going to take the time again, to individually rebut your misrepresentations of what other posters have said in this topic nor the time to correct the misinterpretations you constantly make of the magnet interactions represented here in the topic.

You have contributed nothing to the topic which is of sufficient value to merit toleration of the dis-information / miss- information you have presented and the disruption you represent.

Your responses to the other posters are evasive, misdirecting, distortions of their original context.   
In short, off topic, topic misdirecting, belligerent and nay saying. It is not welcomed in here.

All of this, I have already said to you.

         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 18, 2020, 12:11:09 AM
@ eye eye

I'm not going to take the time again, to individually rebut your misrepresentations of what other posters have said in this topic nor the time to correct the misinterpretations you constantly make of the magnet interactions represented here in the topic.

You have contributed nothing to the topic which is of sufficient value to merit toleration of the dis-information / miss- information you have presented and the disruption you represent.

Your responses to the other posters are evasive, misdirecting, distortions of their original context.   
In short, off topic, topic misdirecting, belligerent and nay saying. It is not welcomed in here.

All of this, I have already said to you.

         floor

Well Floor, please, you really ridiculed yourself with that post.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on March 18, 2020, 12:54:34 AM
@ eye eye

I'm not going to take the time again, to individually rebut your misrepresentations of what other posters have said in this topic nor the time to correct the misinterpretations you constantly make of the magnet interactions represented here in the topic.

You have contributed nothing to the topic which is of sufficient value to merit toleration of the dis-information / miss- information you have presented and the disruption you represent.

Your responses to the other posters are evasive, misdirecting, distortions of their original context.   
In short, off topic, topic misdirecting, belligerent and nay saying. It is not welcomed in here.

All of this, I have already said to you.

         floor


3 thumbs up 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 18, 2020, 07:45:01 PM
@Norman6538

Specifically... with the magnet, shapes, types and orientations I use....
ceramic, 3/8 by 7/8 by 1 7/8 inches, wafer magnets, poles on the broad faces,
both poles presented at the edges.

RO is the rotating magnet
SL is the sliding magnet

0 degrees RO is 90 degrees off from parallel to SL 

Other wise I will refer      not to degrees      but to   units of travel distance by the weight bottle,
whether RO  or SL.

When RO is at 0 deg. to SL ....  this what I generally would call neutral, in terms of either attracting or repelling force against the sliding motion of SL.

Because of magnetic domain reorientations, within the RO and SL magnets    both     there is an attraction of SL TOWARD RO.  Its is always there in magnet interactions and it effects the total amount of either attracting or repelling force present.  It is especially strong when the magnet are very near to one another. 

We normally don't know it's there because it is concealed within the larger forces of either attractions or repulsions that occur between magnets.   

When RO is at 0 degrees to SL  there is an overall neutralization of attracting and repelling forces upon SL (only in the sliding direction)..... but not upon RO in its ROtating direction.

Forces which WOULD cause SL  to rotate are present (Newton's laws still apply) but the sliding track does not allow that to happen to SL  (no SL motion = no energy spent upon SL). 

                   Along the sliding direction forces are equal and opposite / canceling. 
EXCEPT for the attracting force present due to the domain flipping.  Call it SP6538..

On my test bench, as set up,  when SL is at 5 /units of distance from RO   and   RO is at 13 deg.....

STICK SPOT 6538 will lift 130 grams on RO. as it causes  both the rotation of RO from 13 deg. to 0 deg. and.....  it will simultaneously cause the sliding of SL from 5 units of distance to 0 units of distance, without any input / weight on the SL unit.  Then it becomes SP6538 as you pull SL away from RO.

SP6538 can be either an input or an output.  This depends... our call.  IF.....

130 grams hangs upon the RO pulley while RO is at 18 deg. and SL is at 22 units of distance (22 deg. on the SL scale)... it takes an input on SL of 307 units of work, to bring SL to 0 units of distance.  This is accomplished by hanging a series of weights on the SL pulley.  Lighter and lighter weights as SL gets closer to RO.  At 5 units of distance (5 deg. SL scale) no weight is needed on the SL pulley.

We just did the lifting 130 grams times 18 deg. RO (18 units of distance times 130 grams = 2340
units of work) by applying 307 units of work on the SL.  But its no OU unless we can get every thing  back to the starting points. 

Both RO  and SL  are at zero....   RO  is at a right angle to SL (0 deg. RO).  SP6538 is in our face.
How many work units to pull SL  from 0 deg. back to 30 deg. while RO is at 0 deg RO ?
Answer...  around 404 units of work.

so.. that's 307 + 404 = 711... but there remains one other measurement to do.

Because... when the RO weight falls from 0 to 18 deg. while SL is at 22 units of distance from RO...
RO is still under some influence from the SL magnetic force..   

Therefore we must measure the work needed to rotate RO from 0 deg. to 18 deg. RO, while NO WEIGHT hangs upon the RO pulley and SL remains distant at 22 units of distance from RO.   This is equal to 1845 units of work.

307 SL input  22 to 0 deg.  SL
404 SL return input 0 to 22 deg SL (RO is at 0 deg.)
1845 RO pull down input (no 130 grams)
2556 total input

130 grams times 18 units of distance = 2340

2556 - 2340 = 216 Under Unity.... oh man bummer ... right ?

If we look at it as ...

just one input ... 130 grams times 18 deg. RO = 2340   and....
three separate outputs totaling to 2556 unit of work.... then its
216 Over Unity.  yep...

But that's not all folks.....  one can change every thing up and get 3 inputs that amount to less than the one single output instead.

I'll answer questions, but this is old news to me (5 or 6 years old now ?).

This all seems to deviate from the Coulomb model some what.

   best wishes
         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on March 18, 2020, 10:30:51 PM
Excellent post Floor. But one thing I question is the use of degrees. I measured the distance moved which for you would be the water bottles up or down. I don't think degrees will be equal to distance lifted or dropped.

FLOOR READ THIS. I will reveal to you how to reduce the input units.
Think of lifting a car 1 inch at a time with a lever but the car is not bound by gravity rules but magnetic rules. The first inch will be hardest and each inch thereafter will take less work.

  The input could easily be reduced by 30% and that is big.

This method becomes a "closer stronger compensator".

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 19, 2020, 02:27:09 AM
Quote 1 from Norman

But one thing I question is the use of degrees. I measured the distance moved which for you would be the water bottles up or down. I don't think degrees will be equal to distance lifted or dropped.

As long as I use degrees in stead of the conversion to milli meters for   BOTH   the RO and the SL    the distance to force ratios between RO times distance    to    SL times distance will be the same.   

                      example

                      1 to 2 ratio

                      2g to 4g  also a 1 to 2 ratio

                      2g x 4mm  to 4g x 4mm =   8  to 16 ratio  also 1 to 2 ratio

                      if each degree = 1/2 mm  then

                      2g x 8 deg.   to  4g x 8 deg.   also a 1 to 2 ratio 

                               As long as ...
the conversion factor for SL scale degrees to the SL weight bottle's actual moments,
                             is the same as,

the conversion factor for the RO scale degrees to the RO weight bottle's actual  movements,
                            which it is....  then it does not change the ratio of the work in to the work out.

This is because the pulley on the SL dial / scale has the same diameter as the the RO pulley on the RO dial / scale.

             IF the conversion factor for mm of bottle travel were 1 mm per each 0.5 degree on the scale
                                        then it would work like this 1 degree x 2 = 1mm of bottle travel
                      2g x (8deg. x 2) to 4g x (4deg. x 2)     =    2 x  16 = 4  to 4 x 8 = 32  16 to 32 or  1 to 2

next ...........
Quote 2 from Norman

FLOOR READ THIS. I will reveal to you how to reduce the input units.
Think of lifting a car 1 inch at a time with a lever but the car is not bound by gravity rules but magnetic rules. The first inch will be hardest and each inch thereafter will take less work.

The input could easily be reduced by 30% and that is big.

This method becomes a "closer stronger compensator".


                                  A compensator of sorts yes .....      You're getting it
                                  but of course, this is not where the OU cpmes from   

          You and yours stay safe
                     regards
                            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 19, 2020, 03:04:22 AM
Sorry about the math / typo error

                           WRONG
             IF the conversion factor for mm of bottle travel were 1 mm per each 0.5 degree on the scale
                                        then it would work like this 1 degree x 2 = 1mm of bottle travel
                      2g x (8deg. x 2) to 4g x (4deg. x 2)     =    2 x  16 = 4  to 4 x 8 = 32  16 to 32 or  1 to 2

                           CORRECTION
             If the conversion factor for mm of bottle travel were 1 mm per each 0.5 degree on the scale
                                        then it would work like this 1 degree x 2 = 1mm of bottle travel
                      2g x (8deg. x 2) to 4g x (8deg. x 2)     =    2 x 16 = 32  to 4 x 8 = 64  32 to 64 or  1 to 2

            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 19, 2020, 11:39:06 AM
3 thumbs up

Citfta,

You can of course express your hostility towards me. I have been called names and whatever, much worse than that, because of science, and programming. Finally it appeared that they all were wrong, but it seems to be a human behavior towards all new and yet unknown to them. It looks like that this is what all should go through, who want to find something new. You find out about the people who did, they tell that this was the case, i last heard that Robbert Schoch told that, you name it. This continues until all are tired of this, and finally realize that it makes no sense.

Your statement makes no sense, btw, human has two thumbs, where do you take the third? Ayeaye has no thumbs, btw, and god also has only fingers and not thumbs, by scriptures at least.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on March 19, 2020, 01:09:12 PM
Ayeaye,


I have NO hostility towards you.  Just because I do not agree with your actions does not mean I am your enemy.  In fact I have tried to be very respectful in my requests for you to stop polluting this thread with your posts.  I am having a hard time understanding why you can't see that continually posting your objections to this thread is not only rude but also disrespectful to those that are trying to experiment and possibly learn something.


I think we all understand you do not agree with the conclusions that Floor, Norman and myself are coming to.  You have made that very clear multiple times.  WE GET IT!  But we are tired of hearing it over and over again.


Three thumbs up is an expression in my part of the country that just means we agree with someone or something.


Again, respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 19, 2020, 01:19:11 PM
I have NO hostility towards you.  Just because I do not agree with your actions does not mean I am your enemy.  In fact I have tried to be very respectful in my requests for you to stop polluting this thread with your posts.  I am having a hard time understanding why you can't see that continually posting your objections to this thread is not only rude but also disrespectful to those that are trying to experiment and possibly learn something.

You are expressing the weird behavior like some people do, they shake their head when they are supposed to nod. Or your logic is broken. Yes you assured me again that you are hostile towards me, i knew that already, no need to do that again and again.

I have not seen any respect from you, sorry. Except you saying that you have it, but the rest that you say tells the direct opposite.

I have expressed respect towards you, where i have seen it proper. That you were the first who measured magnets with scales, that your bench was very well made. And that you are trying to research overunity, i'm certainly one who knows that it's not easy. But you disregard all that and try to discredit me in every possible way.

I don't want to hear more broken logic from you, sorry. It is not possible to argue against broken logic.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on March 19, 2020, 03:38:44 PM
Floor's numbers very much agree with mine. It is very clear that it takes very little to elicit the magnetic twist which will lift a weight but when the magnets are twisted they attract and that is the sticky spot. In order to repeat the cycle the magnets have to be separated and back to 90 degrees and that takes a good bit of work. But that work can be reduced greatly with several tricks. If you try to brute force pull them apart it will take almost the same amount of work as the first step in the cycle generated. So you need a "closer stronger compensator". For those skilled in the art there are numerous ways to make the "closer stronger compensator". But since I have had to work entirely alone with almost no encouragement I will keep those ways to myself for now. That statement makes me very sad.

For example I have an engineer neighbor who I described the magnetic twist to and he said he'd come and see it tomorrow. As you can guess tomorrow was over a week ago and he never came.

Folks Floor is on to something and no one has even tried my simple coffee cup machine and reported back. 
 
 Norman, a very sad day it is.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 19, 2020, 04:03:48 PM
It is very clear that it takes very little to elicit the magnetic twist which will lift a weight but when the magnets are twisted they attract and that is the sticky spot. In order to repeat the cycle the magnets have to be separated and back to 90 degrees and that takes a good bit of work.

If you mean, approach, twist, then separate, and twist back, in the Coulomb model there is no overunity in all that operation. Thus it has to be shown how it differs from the Coulomb model, and how this difference provides overunity, and then measure that there is a gain of energy. If this is not done, then i don't know how this setup can be good. I don't say that there cannot be overunity though, as can be in so many things.

But i have a setup where i measured that it has a gain of energy, this is replicated, the results are confirmed, and it is also explained what is the difference from the Coulomb model there, and how it causes a gain of energy. Thus there is a reason to use my setup.

I though wish success to Floor and you, to succeed in getting overunity the way you try. But i recommend to think it through, how differences from the Coulomb model may cause overunity there, and change the setup if necessary, so that they do.

Maybe it works better in the opposite way, approach when magnets are straight and opposite, then twist and separate?

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 21, 2020, 06:17:39 PM
@ all readers

Electronics was an elective subject  I took in school.  Back then they still began such courses with teaching about static electric charge interactions (It's been a while). I don't think there is such a thing, at least not formally, as the "Coulomb model".  I didn't  Wiki Pedia it though.   With out looking it up, and while omitting the specifics.

The Coulomb is a unit of measurement.  1 Coulomb = a very very large number of electrons. 
1 Coulomb of electrons moving past a given point  in a conductor, in 1 second of time = 1 Ampere of electrical current.

Without being goaded into making some kind of denial as to what that definition is,  nor
that electric charges of opposite polarities attract and so on, nor the concept that from a THEORETICAL POINT SOURCE,  Coulomb force diminishes with distance as the inverse of the square of that distance  I just have to say.

Look at this PDF files if you wish...
     Note that these are parts of a work in progress and please do not redistribute them at this time.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 21, 2020, 06:54:53 PM
Coulomb force diminishes with distance as the inverse of the square of that distance  I just have to say.

Yes. Read the Wikipedia article about Charles-Augustin de Coulomb  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-Augustin_de_Coulomb

Quote
He discovered first an inverse relationship of the force between electric charges and the square of its distance and then the same relationship between magnetic poles. Later these relationships were named after him as Coulomb's law.

This about the magnetic poles is the Coulomb model for magnets. Later it was found that the magnetic poles don't always have exactly such relationship between the force and distance (Gauss equation). That provides a perfectly spherical field. Nevertheless, this model has been used also after that for magnets, in the simplified cases.

The importance of that model for overunity, is that there cannot be overunity in the magnets setup that works exactly by the Coulomb model. Because no matter how many poles there are or how they move, exiting a spherical field by whatever path from a certain point, requires exactly the same energy that was created by entering the field up to that point by whatever path. And this is  true for all interacting pairs of poles separately, thus there also cannot be overunity in the setup as a whole, no matter how magnets move or rotate.

Thus, for there to be overunity, there have to be differences in the setup from the Coulomb model for magnets. Finding these differences enables to find how and in what direction they may provide overunity, and thus make a setup that has overunity as a whole.

PS Floor, i'm sorry but i cannot read your pdf files, as on my computer they appear as some kind of bin files, and there is no way to open them in any way.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on March 21, 2020, 06:59:22 PM
Coulombs electrostatic force law and model(ling)


https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/Oregon_Institute_of_Technology/OIT%3A_CHE_202_-_General_Chemistry_II/Unit_2%3A_Electrons_in_Atoms/2.1%3A_Coulomb's_Law_and_the_Electrostatic_Potential (https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/Oregon_Institute_of_Technology/OIT%3A_CHE_202_-_General_Chemistry_II/Unit_2%3A_Electrons_in_Atoms/2.1%3A_Coulomb's_Law_and_the_Electrostatic_Potential)


Force scalar and vector freedom degree ? linear,rotatory,translatory geral freedom
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on March 21, 2020, 08:02:27 PM
Thanks Floor for your clearly presented documents.  The illustrations are clear and very helpful.  I appreciate the effort it takes to create documents that nicely presented.


Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: gyulasun on March 21, 2020, 09:18:27 PM

PS Floor, i'm sorry but i cannot read your pdf files, as on my computer they appear as some kind of bin files, and there is no way to open them in any way.
For some unknown reason, the Admin of this forum has changed something in the software settings and the attachments can be downloaded only by Chrome or Explorer (these two are the ones I tested)  but when someone has Firefox browser for instance, the attachments download without any file extension and with a much different file name, as you mentioned them as some kind of bin files. The number of the bytes (file size) remain unchanged, only the name changes and the original file extension is cut.

You can do the followings:
Simply copy the original file name and Rename your downloaded bin_file_looking file to the original one, then you can open it as a normal pdf file.

Or use one of the above mentioned two web browsers, both downloaded the two pdf files correctly for me.

This happens not only with pdf but picture files too, but using one of the two methods mentioned above, they can be downloaded.

Gyula
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: citfta on March 21, 2020, 09:55:46 PM
Hi Gyula,


I don't think it was the admin that changed things.  After Firefox did an "upgrade" last year I found several things no longer worked right not only with this forum but also some of the weather sites I go to.  I don't like Chrome because they are part of Google and want to track everything you do.  I found a browser called "Brave" that seems to work really well and they insist they do not track anything and have settings you can change to protect your privacy in other ways also.  All extensions and plug-ins that work with Chrome also work with Brave.  I have been using it for several months now and am pretty pleased with it.


Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: gyulasun on March 21, 2020, 10:01:39 PM
Okay Carroll, your observations are surely correct and then it is the Firefox to blame.  I heard about the Google Chrome as being too 'nosy'.
Thanks mentioning the "Brave" browser. 

Greetings 
Gyula
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on March 22, 2020, 01:01:57 AM
Ayeaye  said

PS Floor, i'm sorry but i cannot read your pdf files, as on my computer they appear as some kind of bin files, and there is no way to open them in any way.

   I saved them adding .pdf and then they work.

I made some concept teaching devices today. Do you think it would be worthwhile to upload them or will  they just fall on deaf ears? - photos and short videos.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 23, 2020, 12:22:46 AM
Adoby Reader is my computer's default for PDF files.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 23, 2020, 12:26:49 AM
@Norman 6538

Your observations / opinions have been / are  welcome.

              floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on March 23, 2020, 12:28:26 PM
Floor, thanks for your comment and sharing your ideas and drawings. That is what this forum is for.

 I have made 10 machines. One small one is just for carry around demonstrations to people. But there are few people who even have a novel curiosity. Our world wants green energy but they did not want Bessler and his wheel and they do not want your Twist Drive power either.
I have a few neighbor kids that are more interested than any adults. They are not poisoned yet by their education.

Latest re-tuned performance is 82 units of work from 22 units of work and 35 units to reset giving 25 units left. I'm working on the self switching clockwork.

I am very happy with the progress I have made during such extreme times.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 23, 2020, 12:57:52 PM
Floor, thanks for your comment and sharing your ideas and drawings. That is what this forum is for.

I thought so too.

Life is though, one people do everything that other people want, and this is all content. I wouldn't quite say it's interesting for me, but may be for some others.

"Latest re-tuned performance is 82 units of work from 22 units"

What is that, a magnet approaching another magnet, then getting 82 units out?

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 24, 2020, 12:32:32 PM
Please understand, overunity, likely energy always comes from the zero point, when field does work, and goes to the zero point, when one works against the field. So there is always overunity, it is a common thing and happens all the time. Like we drive with the car downhill, energy comes from the zero point. We drive with the car uphill, energy goes to the zero point.

What we really need is to break the symmetry, achieve asymmetry, so that more energy comes from the zero point, than goes there. This is what should be called overunity in the sense of overunity research, as finding that is the aim of that research.

Because when everything in the field is symmetric, there cannot be asymmetry, this asymmetry should come from the asymmery of the field. In the magnetic field this asymmetry comes from the non-Coulomb irregularity, that is difference of the setup from the Coulomb model for magnetic field. Because in the Coulomb model the fields of the poles are spherical, and there is thus a complete symmetry.

Coulomb model is thus important in spite that there cannot be overunity in that model. Because knowing how it is in the Coulomb model, enables to find the difference of the setup from the Coulomb model, and it is in that difference where overunity can be found. Every such difference provides at least some kind of asymmetry, the question is only whether such asymmetry can be used to provide asymmetry in the whole setup, and whether this asymmetry works in the right direction, like so that different asymmetries don't work against each other.

The way to show that asymmetry in the setup, is to show that the energy of moving from outside the field to the state with the lowest energy potential, and the energy of moving from that state to the outside of the field, are not equal.

Fancy tricks with magnets may indeed interest only kids. But showing by experiments that there is such asymmetry, should interest adults, because it says something important about the universe.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 24, 2020, 07:03:57 PM
A good critic is an asset.
A good critic is hard to find / rare. 
Bad critics abound, are worthless, even less than worthless. 
A good critic is an asset.
A good critic is very hard to find / rare. 
Bad critics abound, are worthless, even less than worthless. 

The reason good critics are hard to come by ?   
It requires self honesty.  It is a hard job.

The reason poor critics abound ? 
The internet has (in its own monetary interest) supported it..

The bad critics primary motivations for speaking....

0. just want attention.
1. a fascination with the sound of their own head rattling.
2. embrace the eye for an eye model / out to punish the world.
3. believe every thing they think, is true.
4. don't understand that the protection of freedom of speech has to do with
GOVERNMENTS not suppressing  information.
5. don't understand that freedom of speech also implies a responsibility to weigh the MERITS
and EFFECTS of what one says.
6. think that the phrase "every one has some thing of value to say"................... 
means .......................    every thing .....  anyone says has value.

I embrace the model that no material is useless.  This does mean that we should confuse garbage
with ice cream.

           floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 24, 2020, 07:05:30 PM
@ eye eye

I'm not going to take the time again, to individually rebut your misrepresentations of what other posters have said in this topic nor the time to correct the misinterpretations you constantly make of the magnet interactions represented here in the topic.

You have contributed nothing to the topic which is of sufficient value to merit toleration of the dis-information / miss- information you have presented and the disruption you represent.

Your responses to the other posters are evasive, misdirecting, distortions of their original context.   
In short, off topic, topic misdirecting, belligerent and nay saying. It is not welcomed in here.

All of this, I have already said to you.

         floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 24, 2020, 07:18:45 PM
Here is a funny video..

Topic is internet critics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8S4oltZTtc

               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 24, 2020, 08:57:33 PM
You have contributed nothing to the topic which is of sufficient value to merit toleration of the dis-information / miss- information you have presented and the disruption you represent.

This is not true, why are you saying that?

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 24, 2020, 09:11:16 PM
  @ all readers

The magnet interactions and the best results in / differences between the work in to work out
are due to the creation of near balances between attracting and repelling forces between magnets.

To see demonstrations of some of these interactions watch the videos

 @   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

There are maybe 20 videos on my channel.   They are not monetized. I receive no income from the hits.

        floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 24, 2020, 09:18:53 PM
The magnet interactions and the best results in / differences between the work in to work out
are due to the creation of near balances between attracting and repelling forces between magnets.

Balancing forces alone does not provide overunity, imho.

Title: Floor 101 for any school child
Post by: norman6538 on March 25, 2020, 01:50:00 AM
Floor 101 for any school child who has even a little curiosity. see attached video.


White is south in the video and they want to twist and align where they will be stuck together but the two vertical posts/wires on the left are stops to prevent full alignment. They are made from paperclips  and notice that the magnet coming down makes the twist and does not touch the twisting magnet.

This is so much more revealing than playing with the two magnetic dogs we played with as kids.

I leave the measurements up to "those skilled in the arts." Which is those who leave the keyboard and play with magnets and a hot glue gun.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 25, 2020, 07:31:37 AM
Norman, you may guess, writing here, is not a fun part of my life.

I'm talking to people elsewhere who have made real working overunity devices. But it is impossible to explain even trivial things here about overunity, then how to go further.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 26, 2020, 05:53:21 AM
Hi Norman

Your video, is more like a snapshot (short length).

Would you explain the magnet motions and their polar orientations for us.
I don't know what it demonstrates ?

        regards
               floor

 PS @ all readers
   My "WARNING POSTER" is just a statement / humor about what is considered the impossible..

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 26, 2020, 06:38:52 AM
@ all readers

There exists a wide variety of ATTEMPTS at O.U. with magnets,  through what is often refered to
as asymetry of the fields.  You tube is full of them.

The classic example of this sort of device is called the "V gate" design.

Some V gate designs are rotary, others are linear.  There are many variatioms.  Some old, some
newer ones. 

Nearly all of the "magnet motor" designs I have seen over the years are some variation of that idea. 

Newtons laws of motion are valid and ever present in those designs. Those designs only continue
to move due some amount of momentum and then they stop.  No O.U. there.

The magnet itnteractions I have focused upon in this topic are of a fundamentally defferent methodology.  Newtons laws of motion are just as present in their operation as in any other
design.   

However Newtons laws are to a lerge extent, the basis of the functioning of the magnetic force shunting / redirecting /shielding designs, although there is more to it / it's more complex than simply that.

IT THIS TOPIC the phrase "magnetic field" referres only to that three dimensional region around
a magnet in which a magnetic force is measured.  The topic coes not fundamentally concern itself
with field theory.

I have never seen / heard of a truly sphereical field around a permanent magnet.  The field is
torroidal.  Basically  dougnut shaped.  Long and thin if surrounding a long thin bar magnet.
Flattened out if surrounding a wafer magnet.  Then there are ring magnets horse shoe magnets
and so on.   Magnetic fields as they are generally found in our world anr thing but sphereical. 

Force from a permanent magnet does not deminish in accord with  the inverse square law. NEVER !

This is some of what has concerend me in the topic of late.

             Much more to say.

                 But later
            best wishes
           stay well
        l
              floor
Title: Floor 101 video
Post by: norman6538 on March 26, 2020, 10:05:37 AM
The Floor Twist Drive/magnetic power is clearly demonstrated when the magnet comes down close to the twistable magnet below making it turn. And the magnets do not smack together and get stuck.
The best way to see this is to make this simple device and see for yourself but use small rectangular ceramic magnets. At first I glued 2 magnets to flat tongue depressor/craft sticks - 1. up vertical and 2. at 45 degrees then place them flat on a table and slide the edges next to each other. In one polarity they will repel and in another polarity they will attract. Then I glued a dowel to one magnet to allow the one stick/magnet to rotate and made the Floor 101 video showing the twisting.
At the end of the video the white paint on the magnets is magnetic south.

This video shows  the second part  of the Floor principle. It only shows undoing that small attraction that results after the twist
But it also shows the balance scale that is heavy on the right which then drops as the magnetic attraction on the left is reduced when the magnets are untwisted.

 Make this simple Floor machine and you will become a believer.

When Floor 101 is understood I'll proceed to Floor 102.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 26, 2020, 11:41:32 AM
There exists a wide variety of ATTEMPTS at O.U. with magnets,  through what is often refered to
as asymetry of the fields.  You tube is full of them.

The classic example of this sort of device is called the "V gate" design.

No. V-gate can fully be modeled by the Coulomb model, and has no overunity whatsoever. That is, the concept can be modeled by the Coulomb model. And it thus doesn't use asymmetry of the field at all. Whether in the reality there is overunity, is another question, but this principle is not right for making overunity setups.

Internet is full of all kind of V-gate devices yes. But i have not seen not a single one that uses asymmetry of the field. My experiments and the replication of it by Telecom that show gain of energy, are based on asymmetry of the field.

They have nothing whatsoever to do with any variety of V-gate, tri-gate or anything such.

The Newton law is an inverse square law, the same as the Coulomb law. In some cases and to some extent it applies to magnets, but if the fields of the poles differ from spherical, then such magnets also differ from the Newton law, and from the Coulomb model for magnetic fields. I have not heard anyone talking about Newton law regarding the magnets, Newton did not propose his law for magnets, Coulomb did. Thus it is correct to talk about the Coulomb law and the Coulomb model.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on March 26, 2020, 02:50:14 PM
ayeaye,I will question you related "magnet : permanent and electro" and "force: positive and negative"

Where/what  is the difference by same dimension 1 inch x 1 inch x 1 inch permanent magnet

C5 ceramic magnet
C8 ceramic magnet

AlNiCo magnet
Samarium XY magnet
Neodymium XY magnet
( later Ferrit-Nitrite)
to give the measureable + or - force  ?  Source ?



When these forces are convertable to electromagnetic forces by F=BIL,attention with the conditionizing
and we know :

The permanent magnets "emitts" forces permanent, N-forces and S-forces

The electro-magnets ( by DC,AC or pulsed DC) "emitts" a.permanent b. periodically N-forces and/or S-forces

and 1 W( for unit Watt !) h DC is not 1 Wh AC ; 1 Wh DC/ 1 Wh pulsed DC ?
IMPORTANT ? W( for physical Work !)= Fs , yes !

in motion we have speed and velocity
with tangential velocity and angular velocity parallel

and the pm/em-forces combination advantage f.e. 70 units pm mmf  + 70 units emf ~ 280 units mmf( Flynn : magnetic actuator Hilden-Brand : magnetic valve)
and extra the emf on/off-switch = zero consume

and the resonant circuit gains

and the double rotor- one cw and the other ccw- on the same shaft principle

and do all this into a virtual protoype/model : soft

Is this experimental stage by your "Coulomb model" ?
With which Coulomb friction kinds and numbers do you work your statements out ?



When yes and you can measure output ≥ input you have overunity result and this means :by actual physical and technical standart commercial :


        NOTHING !
Your recognition worth is to compare with 1 Wp TV cell value : +- 10 cents
But this is NOT only you/the experimenter related,for all un-/professionals global up to I.S.S.-orbital
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 26, 2020, 03:06:49 PM
Is this experimental stage by your "Coulomb model" ?
With which Coulomb friction kinds and numbers do you work your statements out ?

No, difference from the Coulomb model for magnetic fields, asymmetry. The experiment and its replication did show gain of energy. In addiition there is vertical energy, not measured, can be utilized like electromechanically, like allow the stator magnet to move a bit, and put coil around it.

It shows that it is possible to get energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field, yes.

Nothing goes ahead with that though, as no one is no more willing to do any experiments, the reason is lack of motivation. But what there is, is enough to show a gain of energy.

 
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 26, 2020, 07:59:49 PM
@ Norman 6538

Thanks.

I have a request of you, (which I sometimes find, that I myself have not followed follow).

Often I find my self unable to grasp what you are showing.

Please be extremely diligent in explaining your drawings, vids, observations and so on. 

    PS
          Please dont blow up my persona into some kind of bigger than it really is thing.
          For example  floor 101 or so on.  I would appreciate this.  These topics are the result
          of the participation and cooperation of many and from many views and stances in life.

                    stay safe
                           floor
              keep up the good work
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 26, 2020, 11:35:27 PM
@ all readers

There exist a wide variety of ATTEMPTS at O.U. with magnets, through what is often refereed to
as asymmetry of the fields. You tube is full of them.

The classic example of this sort of device is called the "V gate" design.

Some V gate designs are rotary, others are linear. There are many variations. Some old, some
newer ones.

Nearly all of the "magnet motor" designs I have seen over the years are some variation of that idea.

Newtons laws of motion are valid and ever present in those designs. Those designs only continue
to move due some amount of momentum and then they stop.  No O.U. there.

The magnet interactions I have focused upon in this topic are of a fundamentally efferent methodology.   Newtons laws of motion are just as present in their operation as in any other
design.

However Newtons laws are to a large extent, the basis of the functioning of the magnetic force shunting / redirecting /shielding designs, although there is more to it / it's more complex than simply that.

IT THIS TOPIC the phrase "magnetic field" referrers only to that three dimensional region around
a magnet in which a magnetic force is measured. The topic does not fundamentally concern itself with field theory.

I have never seen / heard of a truly spherical field around a permanent magnet. The field is
toroid. Basically doughnut shaped. Long and thin if surrounding a long thin bar magnet.
Flattened out if surrounding a wafer magnet. Then there are ring magnets horse shoe magnets
and so on.  Magnetic fields as they are generally found in our world any thing but spherical.

Force from a permanent magnet does not diminish in accord with the inverse square law. NEVER !
The farther from a magnet the force measured is, the more it comes NEAR TO FALLING INTO inverse square law. But both the mathematics and the measurements say that it never actually reaches inverse square.  The force from a magnet is small and unusable way before, it is far enough away to be very near to indistinguishable from diminishing by the inverse of the square of the distance.

The Coulomb model is essentially the same as to say... science has labeled electrostatic charge as a plus and a minus charge and that opposites attract, likes repel.   O.U. with magnets, does not violate the Coulomb model, it is dependent upon it.

Symmetry is defined by a certain sameness.  For example... the left and  right halves of a vase may be
mirror images of one another.  But that same vase may not be symmetrical in terms of a comparison of is upper and lower halves.  The only three dimensional shape which is symmetrical from all 3D points
of view is the sphere. No permanent magnet field is symmetrical from all point of view.

The field of force around a permanent magnet is not a sphere.  But it is common to many magnet shapes that there is a symmetry present... from one or more view points.


On might as well drop discussion of the forces measured within a 3d field as being symmetrical or not, as this is not a cause of O.U. in itself.  It's not a case to argue either for or against. It's a WAST OF TIME in that context.

  peace out
      floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 27, 2020, 12:24:54 PM
@ all readers

There exist a wide variety of ATTEMPTS at O.U. with magnets, through what is often refereed to
as asymmetry of the fields. You tube is full of them.

The classic example of this sort of device is called the "V gate" design.

You already said that once. I explained and you ignore. Why do you try to make it look like that my experiment was V-gate? Why do you try to mislead people?

"Newtons laws of motion are valid and ever present in those designs. Those designs only continue
to move due some amount of momentum and then they stop.  No O.U. there.
"

Correct for V-gate and all its varieties. All setups don't exactly correspond to the Coulomb model, but the way how this design is assumed to work, assumes a Coulomb model.

"However Newtons laws are to a large extent, the basis of the functioning of the magnetic force shunting / redirecting /shielding designs, although there is more to it / it's more complex than simply that."

FALSE. This doesn't provide overunity. If all the design works only by the Newton laws, then there cannot be overunity no matter how many magnets, how they are positioned, or how they move or rotate.

"Force from a permanent magnet does not diminish in accord with the inverse square law. NEVER !
The farther from a magnet the force measured is, the more it comes NEAR TO FALLING INTO inverse square law."

Yes and this means that near the magnetic poles the Newton law and the Coulomb model then doesn't apply. Not always true and not always this difference from the Coulomb model is utilized, but it's true that the real magnets often at least somewhat differ from the Coulomb model.

"The Coulomb model is essentially the same as to say... science has labeled electrostatic charge as a plus and a minus charge and that opposites attract, likes repel.   O.U. with magnets, does not violate the Coulomb model, it is dependent upon it."

FALSE. A difference from the Coulomb model is necessary for overunity, as with poles with spherical fields there cannot be overunity no matter what is the setup. At that the Coulomb model may to some extent apply to some parts of the setup, but this is not the cause of the overunity.

"The field of force around a permanent magnet is not a sphere.  But it is common to many magnet shapes that there is a symmetry present... from one or more view points."

Yes, but important f is not where the symmetry is present, but where it is not present. And important for overunity is the difference from the Coulomb model, not the setup corresponding to the Coulomb model.

"On might as well drop discussion of the forces measured within a 3d field as being symmetrical or not, as this is not a cause of O.U. in itself.  It's not a case to argue either for or against. It's a WAST OF TIME in that context."

FALSE. Read the above, a complete lie and misleading.

"Tilting the magnet does not change the basic facts"

FALSE.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 27, 2020, 03:22:33 PM
Citfta, you? Maybe Floor indeed tried to get overunity, but didn't understand something. But what makes it worse, is that he refuses to understand, when explained. If my suspicion is true, these people usually come in two.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on March 27, 2020, 03:35:19 PM
Floor said "Often I find my self unable to grasp what you are showing.
Please be extremely diligent in explaining your drawings, vids, observations and so on. "
 Other folks have commented to me that these videos make the Floor principle clear bt most have said nothing at all which dumbfounds me. So I take breaks once in awhile and look to see who get the importance of the principle.

I tried to show precise parts of the Floor twist concept. We all know that magnets either attract or repel depending on their polarities nearest. But what Floor showed us is they have a 3rd property. When the edges are easily pushed together at 90 degrees they want to twist and either attract or repel when twisted. And the best way to understand that is to take two rectangular magnets in your hands and experience that for your self. Until you do that you are waisting your time at the keyboard. Then make for yourself the very very simple devices  that I showed. Then after you get that inside your head I can take you further.

The first video posted shows how the twist works as the magnets approach each other  and the second shows that resulting attraction being untwisted. That attraction is the "stick spot" that must be  conquered. But in general the resulting twist makes more work than the work required to push the magnets together and then separate them for another cycle.

As I understand Floor was trying to use the twisting to drive reciprocation but I do the opposite because that is what your fingers feel when playing with 2 rectangular magnets.

I am working on my 13th and 14th version of these machines.

Norman
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 27, 2020, 03:44:00 PM
Floor said "Often I find my self unable to grasp what you are showing.

Please be extremely diligent in explaining your drawings, vids, observations and so on. "

I understand why you think in that way, but he evidently willfully ignores my explanations. I understand that you don't want to see it in that way, and neither did i, but as unfortunate as it is to say, i can clearly see the difference.

Good luck with your experiments. See in what direction the twist takes less energy. Measure the energy of approaching both when the magnets are straight and attracting, and when they are twisted. In that way you can find what trajectory and sequence has less energy, and which has more. Whatever sequences they may be. In that way you can find how to approach the lowest energy potential state with more energy, and leave it with less energy, or vice versa. Because as the magnets differ from the Coulomb model, as the result there may be different energy when twisting in one direction, and twisting in another, and difference of energy in different movements. Again, good luck.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: norman6538 on March 27, 2020, 04:31:06 PM
Ayeaye you are getting it finally. I could take about 40 photos of various devices I have made in my basement and by experimenting I have learned a lot. Butch Lafonte woke me up and Leedskalnin and Flynn parallel path etc.

And you are right. I can demonstrate magnetic spin in my pendulum that drops from 2 oclock and swings past 10 oclock to noon and then slowly drops back down is affected by that magnetic spin otherwise why would it swing up normally and back down slowly like a feather and stop at 6 oclock.

Once you get the basic principle down you go on to measurements.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 28, 2020, 01:04:53 AM
eye eye quote

"Why do you try to make it look like that my experiment was V-gate?" 

1. I did not say your experiment was V gate.

2. I did not reference your experiment at all / had no intentions to reference it at all.

3. True this ....  what I illustrate in the most recent drawings, is V gate in principle although not precisely / actually V gate 

4. I truly had NO intentions that my posts be any reflection upon or comment upon your design.

5. The explanations are given to make it clear
                                                                   THAT
                                THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT V GATE VARIATIONS.



  please understand this .............

Within the internet environment and vernacular of the pop culture of generally bogus / misunderstood magnet mania.....

The phrase "asymmetry of the field" is / was the classic "explanation" of why V gates could, might or did give O.U. .   

I'm assuming that you are already aware of the fact that V gates don't work and actually ARE attempts to get O.U. from asymmetry or bumps in the magnetic field.

For a more informed group of people who might stumble across this O.U forum and /or more specifically this topic.....

YOUR insistence upon referring to the methods and devices in THIS topic as functioning due to asymmetry of the fields will be an instant turn off /  reason to immediately disregard the topic / assume that it is just another V gate variation.   
                                             Not good.

                                              Now

Do I wish to engage in some infantile and fruitless debate as to whether or not symmetry and asymmetry exist in magnetic fields ?  Since OBVIOUSLY / undeniably THEY BOTH DO.  NO !
                   
It then also follows, that this is at least IN PART / one reason,  why ANY MAGNET WHAT SO EVER, does      WHAT SO EVER IT DOES    to some other magnet.  There fore it has some thing to do with the designs in this topic.



eye eye quote  /  same quote
             "Why do you try to make it look like that my experiment was V-gate?"  end of quote

   You now understand that....  what     I     have said
1. could imply
2. probably does imply to some
3. did definitely imply to YOU
                        that your experiment  was a V gate design variation.

BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME, THAT THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE JUST  EXPERIENCED YOUR SELF, is it not ?

                                         CONGRATULATIONS !

I just put you through what YOU have, (I hope unwittingly) been putting me through.
                                                         GET IT

4. EVEN THOUGH my motivations for the illustrations were completely without ANY intention on my part to be reflection upon the designs on your topic.
                           NEXT
                                                       
2. how many times have you accused me or some other, of some sort of corrupt behavior ?
                   example  quote from eye eye     "Why do you try to mislead people?"

                    It's couched in a question... but it is in fact a statement 
                                      Not a good behavior on your part.
I could go back and count them, but I think it is you who should go back and do the counting.

eye eye quoting FLOOR
"However Newtons laws are to a large extent, the basis of the functioning of the magnetic force shunting / redirecting /shielding designs, although there is more to it / it's more complex than simply that."                                 an end of that quote

eye eye quote
"This doesn't provide over unity If all the design works only by the Newton laws, then there cannot be over unity no matter how many magnets, how they are positioned, or how they move or rotate."
an and of eye eye quote.

GOT IT / ALREADY HAD IT / SO DOES EVERY BODY ELSE !  The operative word in the above quote "ALL"  Hence my O. U. poster / joke / acknowledgment that O.U. is very officially not possible.  Not a revelation to users who frequent this forum. It does not need repeated.

eye eye quoting FLOOR
"Force from a permanent magnet does not diminish in accord with the inverse square law. NEVER !
The farther from a magnet the force measured is, the more it comes NEAR TO FALLING INTO inverse square law."  an end of quote




eye eye quote
Yes and this means that near the magnetic poles the Newton law and the Coulomb model then doesn't apply. Not always true and not always this difference from the Coulomb model is utilized, but it's true that the real magnets often at least somewhat differ from the Coulomb model.
                       an end of eye eye quote.

                                             You have a talent for stating the obvious,
                                              but also in a way that tends to invalidate other
                                              poster's statements.  Not good.

                                I think that Newtons laws do apply.  The case is rather that
                               Newtons observations commonly lead to conclusions which,
                               while actually not part of his observations are easily implied.
                                     Those implications are not in their self Newtons laws.                                                         


eye eye quoting FLOOR
"The Coulomb model is essentially the same as to say... science has labeled electrostatic charge as a plus and a minus charge and that opposites attract, likes repel.   O.U. with magnets, does not violate the Coulomb model, it is dependent upon it."
                                an and of eye eye quote of floor.

A quote from eye eye
"A difference from the Coulomb model is necessary for over unity,
                       an end of eye eye quote

                                     Again I disagree.  And / or some other factor / factors.

A quote from eye eye
as with poles with spherical fields there cannot be over unity no matter what is the setup."
              an end of eye eye quote

                                     Again I disagree.  And / or  some other factor / factors.

A quote from eye eye
" At that the Coulomb model may to some extent apply to some parts of the setup, but this is not the cause of the over unity."      The end of quote

                                     No comment.









A quote from eye eye
Yes, but important f is not where the symmetry is present, but where it is not present. And important for over unity is the difference from the Coulomb model, not the setup corresponding to the Coulomb model.  The end of quote
                                                           Wrong
                                   in these designs both must be present.

Early on, I suggested / insisted that you make yourself more familiar with this topic before making
assumptions.   

Your response was a tit for tat of, why should I watch floor videos, floor should rather watch eye eye's videos.   


An example of why I said that you should read the topic......

The subject matter I just posted of (inverse square and Coulomb force).
               @
https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg525821/#msg525821

 which you just gave a response to              was       first     posted    on    09/21/18     HELLO !

that response was 
              @   
https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg543986/#msg543986

The discussion leads to the theoretical.  While such is acceptable as an occasional / inevitable
part of discussion, there are numerous other topics on the forum for such.   

                                          This is not a theory topic here.

Also, and since you bring it up,  yes,  your design / experiment is a V gate variation.

Please do a better job or else stop posting here.
            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 28, 2020, 03:51:30 AM

1. I did not say your experiment was V gate.

"Also, and since you bring it up,  yes,  your design / experiment is a V gate variation."

Oh please.

Citfta, do you also agree with both of these statements?

I have never seen V-gate referenced as asymmetry of the field. If it works with attraction, It is just a row of magnets, where every next pole is nearer to the stator magnet. It can be V-shape or a spiral on a disk. Because the next magnet is nearer, then certainly it moves towards the stator magnet. This design can be completely modeled by the Coulomb model, and thus cannot have overunity.

I don't know whether your ideas are your own, or taken from somewhere. But even if some of your ideas are your own, ok that you write about them, but please don't mislead people.

Norman, thank you.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 28, 2020, 01:32:28 PM
PS Floor, you say that i'm stating the obvious. If i state something that is really true, even when i found it, then it is certainly also obvious. The problem is that you willingly deny the obvious.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on March 28, 2020, 02:23:39 PM
ayeaye,probably anybody asked you so I will do it :
What and which is the " ayeaye Coulomb model" ?
Can you give detailed structure and formulation that by this " ayeaye hypothesis model by Coulomb " simulation would be configureable ?

Approvements are ever wellcomed

wmbr
OCWL
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 28, 2020, 03:22:11 PM
What and which is the " ayeaye Coulomb model" ?

There is no "ayeaye Coulomb model". There is Coulomb model for magnets. In the very essence my view is that overunity in permanent magnets is only where are differences from the Coulomb model, and it is caused by the differences from the Coulomb model. May be obvious, but some still willingly ignore it, or confuse or mislead.

Coulomb model for magnets is the model proposed by Coulomb, where all poles have a perfectly spherical field, with inverse square law always applying, even when poles are close to each other. For such model, every pole is considered to be a point, which is usually the center of the pole area. Consider like magnets with poles on large flat sides, think how much the field of a pole by that model there differs from the real field of the pole.

This difference of the field of a pole from the Coulomb model, provides a certain asymmetry of the field. How this asymmetry can cause a gain of energy, can be estimated by knowing the shape of the field. Like, when there is a pole with more field lines on one side than the other, then obviously one gains energy when entering the field with a pole of another magnet, at the side where are more field lines, and exiting the field at the side where are less field lines.

This asymmetry can be called a non-Coulomb irregularity, because in the Coulomb model of the same magnet there is no such asymmetry, and thus there is a difference from the Coulomb model. In spite this is not a very sophisticated approach, it nevertheless enables to estimate the possible overunity in a setup, and makes the research and experimenting much more methodical, instead of just randomly trying and seeing whether there maybe is overunity, like searching a needle in the haystack.

But Floor tries to knock off any such approach in the bud. Instead wanting people to do experiments of his fancy tricks with magnets, where he does not provide a sole real reason why there should be overunity, and leave the experimenters then to blindly try, maybe some overunity sometimes occurs in some of his setups.

That is, the only reason for overunity in Floor's designs he is known to say, is balancing the forces between different poles of the magnets. But this balancing forces can all be modeled by the Coulomb model, thus there is no overunity in such designs. The reason he gives is thus false. He also continuously emphasizes that magnets in his designs are always supposed to correspond to the Newton's law, which is the same as the Coulomb model, in spite incorrect, as Newton did not propose his law for magnets, Coulomb did.

In addition, Floor tries to disregard my experiment, that is in another thread here. Where i measured a gain of energy from asymmetry of the field, and this was replicated by Telecom, confirming the results. Calling it a "V-gate". That is, sometimes saying that it is "V-gate" and sometimes saying that he never said that, confusing the minds of the readers to the extreme.

Trying to explain things to Floor, he willingly ignores all explanations, so explaining to him doesn't help. Not to talk several rude personal attacks by Floor and Citfta against me, for the only reason that i'm critical of their work. Ok, i have been attacked before, and called all names, important is not me as an individual, but the objectivity of the research.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 28, 2020, 06:21:55 PM
@norman6538

Nice work / thanks for time spent,

It has become a pleasent task to read your observations / ideas so on.

Thanks for bumping up the clairity a notch.

   best wishes
            floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on March 28, 2020, 06:23:31 PM
Thank you all

Hey, I hope smOKY is doing well.

           peace out
               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 28, 2020, 06:33:15 PM
Now these two people, Floor and Citfta, secretly complained about me, want to remove me from this forum. No real reason said. Why these two people, because no one else in this forum is against me. If someone is, or anyone has anything against me, please write it here.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ramset on March 28, 2020, 07:24:21 PM
aye aye  For clarity... no one I am aware of has asked for your removal from the forum ?
I have not followed these topics myself due to constant distractions here .so If this has been written here I am unaware.
However I do know most Builders find these distractions offensive and a tremendous waste of time.
so they go elsewhere ??
NOT GOOD IMO
Moderation is a last effort prior to builders departing forum,and no it just does what Bruce and a few others do ..read only or whatever that Moderator/builder wishes in his board/topic   no removal of aye aye from forum.....
unless harassment can be shown [TOS agreement]
.
sorry for interruption here.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 28, 2020, 07:44:59 PM
aye aye  For clarity... no one I am aware of has asked for your removal from the forum ?

I feel that this is the ultimate aim of these two people, i think that they will not satisfy with less. If i will not be allowed to post in threads where anything happens, then i will be confined to threads where nothing happens. And i will ask to remove my account from this forum. And it's achieved, right?

"However I do know most Builders find these distractions offensive and a tremendous waste of time.
so they go elsewhere ??
NOT GOOD IMO"

If i were so annoying person as these two people claim, then at least someone wrote here that one has something against me. No one has said anything. So can it from that be concluded that i'm not distractive to builders, no?

Any preventive action i also consider a condemnation of me, and i see no evidence of distractive action or annoying behavior by me. Nudging is not so harmless, as one can be nudged out of the cliff. By that one may conclude that i'm a kind of troll or extremely bad person, but all i have written in this forum, has been only overunity research, i really see nothing sinister in that.

And i have contributed to that, i have done experiments, measuring gain of energy, that is replicated and confirmed, which as much as i know no one has done any time before. So i, and the one who replicated my experiment, are too one of these builders, right?

I think most people here want this forum to be free, and not moderated, and many will go away if it's no longer free. Because people come here by their free will, they don't come here to again subordinate and comply to many rules, as there are too many other places for that.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ramset on March 28, 2020, 08:11:43 PM
No one has time to waste on arguments and fighting ...here you aye aye have all the tools
that original poster [OP] thread starter has ,he is a builder who shares his hard workFOR YEARS ..such a person should never be abused by persons who can move next door and start their own topic in the same forum.
ONE such builder IMO is worth his weight in Platinum ...[or Hydroxychloroquine ]
and need no other to get his wishes ...[moderation of his topic]
this is not my forum or Builders like Floor would all have their own board...
here builders are like Hens teeth [beyond rare]...and here you tantrum your rights to deny him..

Yeesh....


Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 28, 2020, 08:24:00 PM
he is a builder who shares his hard workFOR YEARS ..such a person should never be abused by persons who can move next door and start their own topic in the same forum.

I don't want to argue, and i have not started any arguments. In that thread, all i last said was that in my opinion the setup is a kind of V-gate, and i said reasons for that. I don't see that this criticism is so bad as one may see it.

I have WORKED FOR MANY YEARS and SHARED MY WORK HERE FOR FREE. Why my work is not considered worth a half cent, and someone's else work is? Why i am considered worth to be thrown to the dust bin, just to make it somewhat easier for someone else? Why, sorry. I don't understand that, no matter how much i think about it, i really don't understand that.

And still no one has said anything.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ramset on March 28, 2020, 08:40:44 PM
IMO
The only persons who need to say anything are the persons
Building !


You make this all about you ?
In Floors topic?


As already stated plenty of builders have expressed regret
As it applies to your contributions in Floor’s build topics !


For a long time now!


No more from me,sorry for interruption.
Hopefully agreements with OP/builder can be reached ?


Chet K







Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 28, 2020, 08:59:45 PM
IMO
The only persons who need to say anything are the persons
Building !

All these builders are here, why no one says anything?

All these threads are for everyone, i have not heard that anyone owns any threads, neither read any such rules. What matters is the topic, no matter who created the thread, and the topic was not like "Floor's papers on permanent mgnets". And even if it were, one had a right to criticize the papers, but only these papers. Or any criticism shouldn't be allowed?

Please give me peace, peace to my soul, maybe at least for a day, this violence against me is too great. Please leave me alone.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ramset on March 28, 2020, 09:13:41 PM

IMO


Harassment is not a privilege on a job-site / builders board...EDIT : I know I had read multiple times request by builders here for you to cease and desist
pleading for you to start your own topic ...
for clarity nobody is asking for your removal from forum ..only respect for builderswishes ...


You want peace start your own discussion in another
Thread.


Feeling entitled to disrupt a builders topic is beyond my
Comprehension and attaching “peace of mind “to this
Entitlement?


Yikes...


No more from me!!






Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on March 28, 2020, 09:19:36 PM
Harassment is not a privilege on a job-site / builders board...

I HAVE NOT HARASSED ANYONE.

As i have not harassed anyone, then i have nothing more to say.

This is a false accusation and violence against me.

Some may laugh now, i know, but i don't, and no good people do.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 19, 2020, 01:56:03 AM
@ All readers

Reboot  :)

 I recommend Adobe Reader 8

 See the attached PDF files below
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 19, 2020, 02:02:54 AM
How to measure the work done by magnets.

See the attached PDF files below.
I recommend Adoby reader 8, its free on line.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 19, 2020, 02:06:31 AM
Inverse square force diminishment.

See the attached PDF files below.
I recommend Adoby Reader 8, its free on line
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 19, 2020, 02:08:11 AM
Magnet how and why.

See the attached PDF files below.
I recommend Adoby Reader 8, its free on line
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 19, 2020, 02:19:34 AM

See the attached PDF files below.
I recommend Adoby Reader 8, its free on line


Over unity from magnets.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 19, 2020, 02:27:50 AM
@ all readers

More videos of principles involved in O. U. from magnets.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5an8hd

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0i61
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7ffco0

27 videos on magnet interaction that demonstrate methods of O.U. from magnet interactions.
https://www.dailymotion.com/search/seethisvid

   best wishes

                floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 19, 2020, 02:48:12 AM
@ All readers

O.U. magnet method 1

           Brief video demonstration @

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on April 19, 2020, 12:27:19 PM
Again, IMHO, magnet shields only when it works as a shield. And all this balancing is then unneccessary. You may have another opinion, i don't see how it's substantiated and i don't agree with you that balancing magnets forces provide overunity.

But you can have your view, and others who believe you can too. I don't want to prevent you from talking about your work, who wants can feel free to ignore my messages. I only want my opinions to be known, and not to be flooded under a lot of stuff. Thanks for the understanding.

Floor, I'm also not against your invention, but then i don't know what your invention is.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 20, 2020, 02:03:49 AM
@ eye eye

Perhaps you truly feel as though you are entitled to courtesies, which you do not /
are perhaps not capable of extending to others.  I suspect that you are already
aware of the maladies / conditions from which you suffer.  I do not see it as of
any benefit to you, that I simply pretend that your behaviors are not unpleasant
for and harmful to others.  I offer neither sympathy for you, nor do I have any pity
for you, because the one implies agreement with you perspective, while the other
would be a pretension on my part that I am some how above you.  Neither stance do
I see as being a basis of / for my being in touch with reality.


You waste other peoples as well as my time, and clutter the topic with these
nonsense statements. 
                                 Example of your last nonsense statement.

Again, IMHO, magnet shields only when it works as a shield.

Your Opinion is received. 

Problems I have with your (above) opinion.

1. You are certain that you understand what shielding is.
2. You do not not understand what shielding is.
3. You do not realize that you do not understand what shielding is.
4. The basis for that opinion, is little more than hear say.

Problems I have with your participation in my topics in general.

1. Your opinion is nonsensical.
2. My topics are not "for the expert only". You  however typically state opinions
authoritatively, as if they were facts, when in fact it is readily apparent that you
posses exceptionally little knowledge of the subjects either in general or in
specific.
3. You are not qualified to participate in the topics. This is not because you are
blind, but rather it is because you are blind and yet you claim to see. 
4. You have complained that you are being unfairly treated when I or some else
cries b. s. on your pretentious and fallacious interjections and interruptions.
5. It is for the reasons of the dishonesty / lack of integrity / lack of consideration for
others etc., which you consistently embody that I do not want you to post in any
of my topics ever.... Period.

               floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 20, 2020, 03:25:59 AM
I have been "informed" on very numerous occasions that "there is no such thing as a magnetic shield".

Please tell this to the Magnetic Shield Corporation, as they have been (apparently erroneously)
in the business of manufacturing and selling magnetic shielding for about 80 years.  Look em up !

What is shielding in general, and in specific what are some of the kinds of, and ways in which various kind of shielding perform their function ?

Lets look.

For many centuries, in some parts of the world, individuals have demonstrated a kind of shielding as performance art, it is as follows.  Performer #1 (typically of large stature and physical strength) lies on his back upon the ground.  A large / thick / broad / flat stone is placed upon his chest.  The stone typically has a weight of  some where around 80 or 100 pounds. 

While performer #1 holds the stone from rocking and / or sliding from its place, a second performer (performer #2) strikes the stone fiercely and repeatedly with a 6 or 8 pound sledge hammer, until the stone is split into two or more pieces.  Performer #1 is unharmed.

What is happening. 

1. We commonly say the stone has absorbed most of the impact, but this is a vagary. It gives no understanding of the how and why this works. 

The stone has a large mass as compared to the sledge hammer.  The kinetic energy of the lighter and fast moving sledge hammer is transformed into a slow moving / short distance travel, of the stone.

   In other words high speed / low mass, is traded for large mass slower speed / less travel distance.

Upon the hammers striking of the stone, the kinetic energy in the hammer is transferred to the stone. The same kinetic energy that was present in the hammer is then present in the stone.  But that kinetic energy is also transformed in its ratio of mass to speed.  Greater mass with a lesser speed.  Same amount of energy though.  Lesser speed over a given duration of the event, results in a lesser distance traveled by the stone, than would have been traveled by a stone of a mass equal to that of the sledge hammer.

2.  The energy present as the momentum of the sledge hammer is spread over the large surface area
of contact, between performer #1's chest and the stone.
                                           In other words the force is redistributed.
Is this magic or over unity ? No.

There are aspects to and / or kinds of shielding, for example padding, or, stretch / elasticity, when an object's fall is arrested by a rope and so on.
..............................................

To be continued....
    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on April 20, 2020, 02:35:50 PM
,
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 20, 2020, 05:58:19 PM
@ all readers

I have been "informed" on very numerous occasions that "there is no such thing as a magnetic shield".

Please tell this to the Magnetic Shield Corporation, as they have been (apparently erroneously)
in the business of manufacturing and selling magnetic shielding for about 80 years.  Look em up !

What is shielding in general, and in specific what are some of the kinds of, and ways in which various kind of shielding perform their function ?

Lets look at one type.

For many centuries, in some parts of the world, individuals have demonstrated a kind of shielding as performance art. It is as follows.  Performer #1 (typically of large stature and physical strength) lies on his back upon the ground.  A large / thick / broad / flat stone is placed upon his chest.  The stone typically has a weight of  some where around 80 or 100 pounds. 

While performer #1 holds the stone from rocking and / or sliding from its place, a second performer (performer #2) strikes the stone fiercely and repeatedly with a 6 or 8 pound sledge hammer, until the stone is split into two or more pieces.  Performer #1 is unharmed.

What is happening. 

1. We commonly say the stone has absorbed most of the impact, but this is a vagary. It gives no understanding of the how and why this works. 

The stone has a large mass as compared to the sledge hammer.  The kinetic energy of the lighter and fast moving sledge hammer is transformed into a slow moving / short distance travel, of the stone.

   In other words high speed / low mass, is traded for large mass slower speed / less travel distance.

Upon the hammers striking of the stone, the kinetic energy in the hammer is transferred to the stone. The same kinetic energy that was present in the hammer is then present in the stone.  But that kinetic energy is also transformed in its ratio of mass to speed.  Greater mass with a lesser speed.  Lesser speed over a given duration of the event, results in a lesser distance traveled by the stone, than would have been traveled by a stone of a mass equal to that of the sledge hammer.

2.  The energy present as the momentum of the sledge hammer is spread over the large surface area of contact, between performer #1's chest and the stone.
                                           In other words the force is redistributed.
Is this over unity ?   No.

There are aspects to and / or kinds of shielding, for example padding lengthens the time duration of an impact while also decreasing peak force.  Stretch / elasticity, when an object's fall is arrested by a rope  lengthens the time duration of an impact while also decreasing peak force and so on.
..............................................



continued

The magnetic force shielding methods presented have some characteristics in common with the sledge hammer and stone slab example.

The stone slab has a broad surface area against performer #1's chest, and a large amount of inertia due to its mass.  The force is DISTRIBUTED over a large area.

A force shielding magnet redirects various of the magnetic forces to act at right angles,  causing those force to be against the track or rail elements of the devices rather than against input energy / forces. 

The force is placed upon the sliding tracks.  It is DISTRIBUTED in such a manner that it cannot cause motion of the magnets.  No motion equals no kinetic energy transfer / expenditure.  But also the magnets can be moved along their tracks with out work against magnetic forces because those motions are at right angles to those magnetic forces.

The magnet force shielding differs in many and considerable ways from the stone and hammer example.  Rather than inertia acting in a major way, in the magnet interactions.  It is the interconnections of the magnets via the track elements of the devices which transform and limit the transfer of the kinetic energy in terms of  direction, distance and ratio of force to displacement.

In other words the magnet are bound / limited in their motions to specific directions by the tracks, but also, the tracks are rigidly connected to each other. This rigid contentedness, in a manner of speaking, takes the place of  the inertia aspect of the stone slab / hammer example.

There is then also that aspect present in magnet interactions which is not at all present in the hammer / stone example.  Near balance of magnetic attraction with magnetic repulsion.  This aspect in combination with the force per distance transformations and force redirecting allows for a variety of very effective magnetic force neutralizations and shieldings. The results of which can be dramatic Over  Unity.

For a greater understanding of the subjects and if you wish, watch the videos or study the drawings.

             best wishes
                  floor
 
            P.S.
             There are no violations of physic's laws presented here.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on April 20, 2020, 06:03:08 PM
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLukas_%28Jahrmarktattraktion%29 (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLukas_%28Jahrmarktattraktion%29) ?




Sincerely


OCWL
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 20, 2020, 06:03:47 PM
Nice links Lanca IV
  thanks
   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: lancaIV on April 20, 2020, 06:07:05 PM
.
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 20, 2020, 06:18:43 PM
Videos of some of these magnet interactions.



https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/msg544070/#msg544070

    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 20, 2020, 06:23:36 PM
@ all readers

I have been "informed" on very numerous occasions that "there is no such thing as a magnetic shield".

Please tell this to the Magnetic Shield Corporation, as they have been (apparently erroneously)
in the business of manufacturing and selling magnetic shielding for about 80 years.  Look em up !

What is shielding in general, and in specific what are some of the kinds of, and ways in which various kind of shielding perform their function ?

Lets look at one type.

For many centuries, in some parts of the world, individuals have demonstrated a kind of shielding as performance art. It is as follows.  Performer #1 (typically of large stature and physical strength) lies on his back upon the ground.  A large / thick / broad / flat stone is placed upon his chest.  The stone typically has a weight of  some where around 80 or 100 pounds.

While performer #1 holds the stone from rocking and / or sliding from its place, a second performer (performer #2) strikes the stone fiercely and repeatedly with a 6 or 8 pound sledge hammer, until the stone is split into two or more pieces.  Performer #1 is unharmed.

What is happening.

1. We commonly say the stone has absorbed most of the impact, but this is a vagary. It gives no understanding of the how and why this works.

The stone has a large mass as compared to the sledge hammer.  The kinetic energy of the lighter and fast moving sledge hammer is transformed into a slow moving / short distance travel, of the stone.

   In other words high speed / low mass, is traded for large mass slower speed / less travel distance.

Upon the hammers striking of the stone, the kinetic energy in the hammer is transferred to the stone. The same kinetic energy that was present in the hammer is then present in the stone.  But that kinetic energy is also transformed in its ratio of mass to speed.  Greater mass with a lesser speed.  Lesser speed over a given duration of the event, results in a lesser distance traveled by the stone, than would have been traveled by a stone of a mass equal to that of the sledge hammer.

2.  The energy present as the momentum of the sledge hammer is spread over the large surface area of contact, between performer #1's chest and the stone.
                                           In other words the force is redistributed.
Is this over unity ?   No.

There are aspects to and / or kinds of shielding, for example padding lengthens the time duration of an impact while also decreasing peak force.  Stretch / elasticity, when an object's fall is arrested by a rope  lengthens the time duration of an impact while also decreasing peak force and so on.
..............................................



continued

The magnetic force shielding methods presented have some characteristics in common with the sledge hammer and stone slab example.

The stone slab has a broad surface area against performer #1's chest, and a large amount of inertia due to its mass.  The force is DISTRIBUTED over a large area.

A force shielding magnet redirects various of the magnetic forces to act at right angles,  causing those force to be against the track or rail elements of the devices rather than against input energy / forces.

The force is placed upon the sliding tracks.  It is DISTRIBUTED in such a manner that it cannot cause motion of the magnets.  No motion equals no kinetic energy transfer / expenditure.  But also the magnets can be moved along their tracks with out work against magnetic forces because those motions are at right angles to those magnetic forces.

The magnet force shielding differs in many and considerable ways from the stone and hammer example.  Rather than inertia acting in a major way, in the magnet interactions.  It is the interconnections of the magnets via the track elements of the devices which transform and limit the transfer of the kinetic energy in terms of  direction, distance and ratio of force to displacement.

In other words the magnet are bound / limited in their motions to specific directions by the tracks, but also, the tracks are rigidly connected to each other. This rigid contentedness, in a manner of speaking, takes the place of  the inertia aspect of the stone slab / hammer example.

There is then also that aspect present in magnet interactions which is not at all present in the hammer / stone example.  Near balance of magnetic attraction with magnetic repulsion.  This aspect in combination with the force per distance transformations and force redirecting allows for a variety of very effective magnetic force neutralizations and shieldings. The results of which can be dramatic Over  Unity.

For a greater understanding of the subjects and if you wish, watch the videos or study the drawings.

             best wishes
                  floor
 Videos of some of these magnet interactions.



https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/msg544070/#msg544070

    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on April 21, 2020, 08:43:36 AM
What is shielding in general, and in specific what are some of the kinds of, and ways in which various kind of shielding perform their function ?

Oh, you think that you push all into obscurity by asking what shielding is. No. Shielding is making magnetic field more asymmetric in a certain way, using the asymmetry (non-Coulomb irregularity) in the magnetic materials that there already is.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on April 30, 2020, 01:35:50 AM
Oh that's it eye eye. I'm telling my mom !
You're in big trouble now !

    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: ayeaye on April 30, 2020, 04:56:10 AM
Oh that's it eye eye. I'm telling my mom !

If you want, but don't talk to Stefan, he has difficult times now.

Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 04, 2020, 08:02:54 AM
@ all readers

I've been looking at a dual oscillation mechanical / gravity based device as a study.

@ https://overunity.com/18454/archimedes-moms-inovation/msg545315/#new

The Twist Drive is (at least in some of its embodiment ) a dual oscillating system.   Tuning is critical in these types of systems.  In the Twist drive, tuning is essentially ...

1. Limiting magnet travel to specific ranges
2. completion of the magnet motions
3. reversal of the magnet motions
4. ? whatever

In the Twist Drive its almost as if one has taken a duel oscillating system and slowed it down to almost a snap shot.  This is very cool, as analogous (in some ways) to some of the duel oscillating electric circuits on the forum, (also that gravity system).

   floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 10, 2020, 01:49:22 AM
I myself, find /conclude that there is no O.U. in this gravity based device @

https://overunity.com/18454/archimedes-moms-inovation/msg545315/#new

but it was an interesting study..

Returning to this topic...

Videos of some of these magnet interactions.

https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/msg544070/#msg544070

    floor
Title: Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
Post by: Floor on May 16, 2020, 03:36:28 AM
Getting back on topic ....

One would expect the magnets to eventually align as N to S.