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Author Topic: Magnets, motion and measurement  (Read 92705 times)

Offline norman6538

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #495 on: March 16, 2020, 09:19:03 PM »
Thanks for the numbers Floor. But what is the distance traveled? Work has to include the distance. By the way Floor are you in the US?
Norman

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #495 on: March 16, 2020, 09:19:03 PM »

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #496 on: March 16, 2020, 09:50:56 PM »
@Norman6538

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg541917/#msg541917

0.27930 mm of weight bottle travel per degree on either the RO or the SL scale.

I will post the actual measurement set values. I don't have them (note book) with me
right now.

US yes.

Earlier in this topic you were referring to a "stick spot" in the twist drive interactions. 
Were you referring to, when the two magnets are at a right angle to one another ?

                regards
                          floor

Offline norman6538

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #497 on: March 17, 2020, 01:19:31 AM »
Floor asked "Were you referring to, when the two magnets are at a right angle to one another ?
   regards    floor "

When the magnets are at right angles moving toward or away from each other there is no resistance to movement but when close together they want to twist so  they  line up apposite poles attracted. And when they twist there is attraction. More twist gives more attraction. The Brute force/weight to separate them when they are twisted is very close to the work the twist lifted.  But I have enhancements to reduce that.

So pushing together when at right angles is almost nothing but then to undo that and separate there is attraction which I call the "sticky spot". 

So when it comes to measurement I need to know the weight and distance that it takes to push them together and to separate them and compare that with the work lifted.

I have made 10 different machines and they all measure over 200% out over in.\

Thanks again Floor for sharing this with us.


Norman

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #497 on: March 17, 2020, 01:19:31 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #498 on: March 17, 2020, 09:22:49 AM »
Norman, you evidently have never tried to measure overunity, or then show one case when you did.

Like your Lafonte scissors. This was just balancing forces, balancing forces is not overunity. And all your setup can be explained by the Coulomb model. Unless you measure that it needs less force to close the scissors in one way than in the other way. But you never tried to do that. And this is evidently also not what Lafonte tried to show.

I understand all the fascination of playing with magnets, and all the skill and knowledge it requires, but just playing with magnets no matter how complicated, has nothing to do with overunity, Unless overunity is what you want to show, but this is evidently not what you and Floor have ever tried to do.

I'm sorry, i understand all the resentment, and all your effort you put into this, But if i see that someone is just wrong, i feel that i have to say that. Why not instead try to really show overunity, then all your efforts are not in vain. If your aim really is overunity, i possibly cannot know.

One may think that i am here for some selfish goal, and i just try to convince others that my experiments are right and others are wrong. No this is not right at all, i'm an honest person. All i do is for overunity research, and as this forum is about overunity, then this is what i think is right to do. And i don't think that no one else is ever right, like what Naudin said that separating magnets side wise and front wise takes different energy, i think he was onto something, and this was really showing the difference from the Coulomb model.


Offline citfta

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #499 on: March 17, 2020, 02:32:26 PM »
Ayeaye,


You are correct that in my video where I measured forces by using a digital fish scale I did not show the whole picture because I did not compare those forces with the distance traveled.


However Floor and Norman have both shown measurements including force and distance traveled.  Yet for some reason you continue to deny what they have shown.  In both of their testing they have shown the forces involved and the distances traveled.  Why you continue to say they haven't is a mystery.


You have said that you would rather theorize than experiment.  And that is fine if that is what you want to do.  For me personally I have learned a lot more from my testing and experiments than any theorizing.


All your posts about the Coulomb theory mean nothing if you can't demonstrate your theory.  And not to demean what you are doing but I really have no interest in the Coulomb theory or any other theory if it can't be demonstrated.


So I will ask again to please keep your theories to your own thread so we can concentrate on real experiments and testing.


Respectfully,
Carroll

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #499 on: March 17, 2020, 02:32:26 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #500 on: March 17, 2020, 03:19:41 PM »
All your posts about the Coulomb theory mean nothing if you can't demonstrate your theory.  And not to demean what you are doing but I really have no interest in the Coulomb theory or any other theory if it can't be demonstrated.

That there is no overunity in the Coulomb model, should be clear by itself. What experiments to do to show that, i don't know, too easy to do a magnet experiment that corresponds to the Coulomb model, and has no overunity. See the V-gate experiments, there are plenty of such experiments done, no need for me to do one more. You can do the simplest experiment though, make an object to fall, you will see that it takes the same work that falling gives, to rise the object to the same height again. This is because the Earth's gravitational field is spherical.

I have seen their measurements yes. Like they show that it takes very little energy to move two magnets near each other, but when they are near each other, one magnet starts to turn, and this gives much more energy than the moving took. And they think that this is overunity. No it is not. The same as moving two attracting magnets closer to each other takes very little energy, but when they attract, this generates much more energy.

People don't understand what overunity is. There are five conditions. Initial speed, no initial force, accelerating when going through the field, exiting the field, the speed when exiting the field is greater than the speed when entering. And all have to be there, for there to be overunity. One is missing, and there is no overunity. Even when all other requirements are completely satisfied.


Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #501 on: March 17, 2020, 05:12:51 PM »
@ eye eye

Not every one is an experimenter, I accept that and have no judgment upon those who's
talent / skill is else where.

Funny how we some times see what we expect to see rather than what is in front of our eyes.

You must not have looked at the drawings "strange 1, 2 and three" closely, maybe glossed over them .

While it is obvious that the two magnets will end up parallel and in a N to S and S to N attraction.

Did you not see, that the magnet poles which are nearest to one another,  in each quadrant, seemingly should compel those two magnets to rotate the opposite direction from which they do?


https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg543594/#msg543594

         regards
                 floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #501 on: March 17, 2020, 05:12:51 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #502 on: March 17, 2020, 05:49:15 PM »
You must not have looked at the drawings "strange 1, 2 and three" closely, maybe glossed over them .

You draw a Coulomb model of that setup, and you see that the magnet should rotate exactly how it does. How it looks like when you draw the magnets, is not the same how the fields look like. What the most causes the rotation there, may be the centers of the magnets, as the fields are strongest there.

Anyway, this setup corresponds to the Coulomb model, and there thus cannot be overunity.

Unless you see how the fields of the poles differ from spherical, can explain how this can cause different energy when rotating in different directions, and measure that the energy when rotating in different directions, is different. I cannot say that it certainly isn't, it may be, but you have not measured it, neither showed the fields of the magnets and explained how they may cause different energy.

Also, when moving it counter-clockwise, and then clockwise, the forces are the same. So moving like this very unlikely has overunity, for overunity the forces on different paths have to be different.

May be, when moving counter-clockwise 90 degrees, and then counter-clockwise 90 degrees again. Then how you see it, the sides of the magnets should repel in the right direction. I'm not sure whether this results in any overunity when seeing the actual fields, maybe, maybe not. This should be shown and measured.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 12:15:04 AM by ayeaye »

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #503 on: March 17, 2020, 10:53:09 PM »
@ eye eye

I'm not going to take the time again, to individually rebut your misrepresentations of what other posters have said in this topic nor the time to correct the misinterpretations you constantly make of the magnet interactions represented here in the topic.

You have contributed nothing to the topic which is of sufficient value to merit toleration of the dis-information / miss- information you have presented and the disruption you represent.

Your responses to the other posters are evasive, misdirecting, distortions of their original context.   
In short, off topic, topic misdirecting, belligerent and nay saying. It is not welcomed in here.

All of this, I have already said to you.

         floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #503 on: March 17, 2020, 10:53:09 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #504 on: March 18, 2020, 12:11:09 AM »
@ eye eye

I'm not going to take the time again, to individually rebut your misrepresentations of what other posters have said in this topic nor the time to correct the misinterpretations you constantly make of the magnet interactions represented here in the topic.

You have contributed nothing to the topic which is of sufficient value to merit toleration of the dis-information / miss- information you have presented and the disruption you represent.

Your responses to the other posters are evasive, misdirecting, distortions of their original context.   
In short, off topic, topic misdirecting, belligerent and nay saying. It is not welcomed in here.

All of this, I have already said to you.

         floor

Well Floor, please, you really ridiculed yourself with that post.


Offline citfta

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #505 on: March 18, 2020, 12:54:34 AM »
@ eye eye

I'm not going to take the time again, to individually rebut your misrepresentations of what other posters have said in this topic nor the time to correct the misinterpretations you constantly make of the magnet interactions represented here in the topic.

You have contributed nothing to the topic which is of sufficient value to merit toleration of the dis-information / miss- information you have presented and the disruption you represent.

Your responses to the other posters are evasive, misdirecting, distortions of their original context.   
In short, off topic, topic misdirecting, belligerent and nay saying. It is not welcomed in here.

All of this, I have already said to you.

         floor


3 thumbs up 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #505 on: March 18, 2020, 12:54:34 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #506 on: March 18, 2020, 07:45:01 PM »
@Norman6538

Specifically... with the magnet, shapes, types and orientations I use....
ceramic, 3/8 by 7/8 by 1 7/8 inches, wafer magnets, poles on the broad faces,
both poles presented at the edges.

RO is the rotating magnet
SL is the sliding magnet

0 degrees RO is 90 degrees off from parallel to SL 

Other wise I will refer      not to degrees      but to   units of travel distance by the weight bottle,
whether RO  or SL.

When RO is at 0 deg. to SL ....  this what I generally would call neutral, in terms of either attracting or repelling force against the sliding motion of SL.

Because of magnetic domain reorientations, within the RO and SL magnets    both     there is an attraction of SL TOWARD RO.  Its is always there in magnet interactions and it effects the total amount of either attracting or repelling force present.  It is especially strong when the magnet are very near to one another. 

We normally don't know it's there because it is concealed within the larger forces of either attractions or repulsions that occur between magnets.   

When RO is at 0 degrees to SL  there is an overall neutralization of attracting and repelling forces upon SL (only in the sliding direction)..... but not upon RO in its ROtating direction.

Forces which WOULD cause SL  to rotate are present (Newton's laws still apply) but the sliding track does not allow that to happen to SL  (no SL motion = no energy spent upon SL). 

                   Along the sliding direction forces are equal and opposite / canceling. 
EXCEPT for the attracting force present due to the domain flipping.  Call it SP6538..

On my test bench, as set up,  when SL is at 5 /units of distance from RO   and   RO is at 13 deg.....

STICK SPOT 6538 will lift 130 grams on RO. as it causes  both the rotation of RO from 13 deg. to 0 deg. and.....  it will simultaneously cause the sliding of SL from 5 units of distance to 0 units of distance, without any input / weight on the SL unit.  Then it becomes SP6538 as you pull SL away from RO.

SP6538 can be either an input or an output.  This depends... our call.  IF.....

130 grams hangs upon the RO pulley while RO is at 18 deg. and SL is at 22 units of distance (22 deg. on the SL scale)... it takes an input on SL of 307 units of work, to bring SL to 0 units of distance.  This is accomplished by hanging a series of weights on the SL pulley.  Lighter and lighter weights as SL gets closer to RO.  At 5 units of distance (5 deg. SL scale) no weight is needed on the SL pulley.

We just did the lifting 130 grams times 18 deg. RO (18 units of distance times 130 grams = 2340
units of work) by applying 307 units of work on the SL.  But its no OU unless we can get every thing  back to the starting points. 

Both RO  and SL  are at zero....   RO  is at a right angle to SL (0 deg. RO).  SP6538 is in our face.
How many work units to pull SL  from 0 deg. back to 30 deg. while RO is at 0 deg RO ?
Answer...  around 404 units of work.

so.. that's 307 + 404 = 711... but there remains one other measurement to do.

Because... when the RO weight falls from 0 to 18 deg. while SL is at 22 units of distance from RO...
RO is still under some influence from the SL magnetic force..   

Therefore we must measure the work needed to rotate RO from 0 deg. to 18 deg. RO, while NO WEIGHT hangs upon the RO pulley and SL remains distant at 22 units of distance from RO.   This is equal to 1845 units of work.

307 SL input  22 to 0 deg.  SL
404 SL return input 0 to 22 deg SL (RO is at 0 deg.)
1845 RO pull down input (no 130 grams)
2556 total input

130 grams times 18 units of distance = 2340

2556 - 2340 = 216 Under Unity.... oh man bummer ... right ?

If we look at it as ...

just one input ... 130 grams times 18 deg. RO = 2340   and....
three separate outputs totaling to 2556 unit of work.... then its
216 Over Unity.  yep...

But that's not all folks.....  one can change every thing up and get 3 inputs that amount to less than the one single output instead.

I'll answer questions, but this is old news to me (5 or 6 years old now ?).

This all seems to deviate from the Coulomb model some what.

   best wishes
         floor

Offline norman6538

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #507 on: March 18, 2020, 10:30:51 PM »
Excellent post Floor. But one thing I question is the use of degrees. I measured the distance moved which for you would be the water bottles up or down. I don't think degrees will be equal to distance lifted or dropped.

FLOOR READ THIS. I will reveal to you how to reduce the input units.
Think of lifting a car 1 inch at a time with a lever but the car is not bound by gravity rules but magnetic rules. The first inch will be hardest and each inch thereafter will take less work.

  The input could easily be reduced by 30% and that is big.

This method becomes a "closer stronger compensator".

Norman
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 01:10:42 AM by norman6538 »

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #508 on: March 19, 2020, 02:27:09 AM »
Quote 1 from Norman

But one thing I question is the use of degrees. I measured the distance moved which for you would be the water bottles up or down. I don't think degrees will be equal to distance lifted or dropped.

As long as I use degrees in stead of the conversion to milli meters for   BOTH   the RO and the SL    the distance to force ratios between RO times distance    to    SL times distance will be the same.   

                      example

                      1 to 2 ratio

                      2g to 4g  also a 1 to 2 ratio

                      2g x 4mm  to 4g x 4mm =   8  to 16 ratio  also 1 to 2 ratio

                      if each degree = 1/2 mm  then

                      2g x 8 deg.   to  4g x 8 deg.   also a 1 to 2 ratio 

                               As long as ...
the conversion factor for SL scale degrees to the SL weight bottle's actual moments,
                             is the same as,

the conversion factor for the RO scale degrees to the RO weight bottle's actual  movements,
                            which it is....  then it does not change the ratio of the work in to the work out.

This is because the pulley on the SL dial / scale has the same diameter as the the RO pulley on the RO dial / scale.

             IF the conversion factor for mm of bottle travel were 1 mm per each 0.5 degree on the scale
                                        then it would work like this 1 degree x 2 = 1mm of bottle travel
                      2g x (8deg. x 2) to 4g x (4deg. x 2)     =    2 x  16 = 4  to 4 x 8 = 32  16 to 32 or  1 to 2

next ...........
Quote 2 from Norman

FLOOR READ THIS. I will reveal to you how to reduce the input units.
Think of lifting a car 1 inch at a time with a lever but the car is not bound by gravity rules but magnetic rules. The first inch will be hardest and each inch thereafter will take less work.

The input could easily be reduced by 30% and that is big.

This method becomes a "closer stronger compensator".


                                  A compensator of sorts yes .....      You're getting it
                                  but of course, this is not where the OU cpmes from   

          You and yours stay safe
                     regards
                            floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #509 on: March 19, 2020, 03:04:22 AM »
Sorry about the math / typo error

                           WRONG
             IF the conversion factor for mm of bottle travel were 1 mm per each 0.5 degree on the scale
                                        then it would work like this 1 degree x 2 = 1mm of bottle travel
                      2g x (8deg. x 2) to 4g x (4deg. x 2)     =    2 x  16 = 4  to 4 x 8 = 32  16 to 32 or  1 to 2

                           CORRECTION
             If the conversion factor for mm of bottle travel were 1 mm per each 0.5 degree on the scale
                                        then it would work like this 1 degree x 2 = 1mm of bottle travel
                      2g x (8deg. x 2) to 4g x (8deg. x 2)     =    2 x 16 = 32  to 4 x 8 = 64  32 to 64 or  1 to 2

            floor

 

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