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Author Topic: Magnets, motion and measurement  (Read 86434 times)

Offline norman6538

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #465 on: February 15, 2020, 07:53:17 PM »
Floor I  quickly cobbled together your twist drive and got 11 units (1 washer) of work in to start the twisting/lifting giving 24 units of work out (2 washers) which gives 218% OU. Remember my work here is quick and dirty and between all of my nursing duties to my wife who has cancer but is progressing.
1. I used 2 stacks of RadioShack magnets with the hole in the center.
2. In the back of the photo are the 2 washers lifted.
3. To the right is the 1 washer that drops and activates the twisting/lifting work out.
4. I used a stainless steel bicycle spoke to make a crankshaft quick and dirty to rigidly hold the twisted magnet.
5. the box on the right limits the drop of the arm and washer at the point that max twist/lift is achieved.

I discovered that its best to start with the twisted magnet below level to get max twist/output because if it gets too high it will be stuck there. I don't think this is as well tuned as Floor's because if the magnets get closer than 1/8 in. they stick together so I put a spacer in between them as a stop. I think  I can tune this a little more but have limited time for that.

The the first photo is twisted/lifted up and you can see the 2 lifted washers in the back . And you can see the crankshaft that allows the twisting magnet to rotate. The second photo shows the 2 washers down and the untwisted magnet.
The magnet to the left that has the hole is pulled to the right  by the dropping single washer  twisting/lifting the 2 washers in the back. In the second photo you can see the magnet is tilted down. In the first photo that twisted/lifted magnet is tilted up in the back and you can see the 2 lifted washers in the back.

In summary as the magnet on the left moves right it twists the magnet on the right lifting the 2 washers hooked behind to the crankshaft.


Thank you so much Floor for all of your diligence and for sharing this with all of us. This makes me very excited. I can taste a self running machine in  my mouth.

Norman

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #465 on: February 15, 2020, 07:53:17 PM »

Offline norman6538

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #466 on: February 16, 2020, 02:14:05 AM »
I cobbled together another Floor twist drive device and it measures 533% OU. That surely is enough extra to repeat the process and handle the losses in the switching.

details
The activating weight is a small washer 1/4 oz. and it moves up and down 6/8 in.

The lifted weight is 2 1/2 oz. washers that are lifted 8/8 in. So the activating units are .25 x 6 = 1.5 units in
 and the lifted units are 8/8 in. up x 2 washers x  .5 oz. washers giving 8 units out. giving 533% OU.  But for margin of error purposes I will count on 300% which is plenty.

And in this embodiment I used a stack of 4 RadioShack magnets that move to twist a stack of 2 of the same magnets. Since the mag field is much stronger with the extra magnets I did not let the magnets get closer than 3/16 in. to reduce the attraction when twisted causing more work to reset for another cycle.

So to make this self run with human switching replace 1 of the .5  oz washers with 2 1/4 oz washers and humanly place the lifted 14/ oz washers where they are needed to activate the twisting/lifting.

And to make it self run we need a good watchmaker of which I am not... But I'll try.

Floor you really have a winner.


Norman
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 01:46:22 PM by norman6538 »

Offline kolbacict

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #467 on: February 16, 2020, 11:10:38 AM »

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #467 on: February 16, 2020, 11:10:38 AM »
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Offline norman6538

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #468 on: February 16, 2020, 01:44:19 PM »
https://youtu.be/4LgEvwpmuwM
Is it right?
  Many of these magnetic tracks abound but it takes a push to get it started before the magnetic track and therefore it will not jump from one track to another. He claims it goes up hill and that is good if it can be replicated by others.

Floor has the best thing going for now as far as I know but keep it simple like I did. Floor wanted to get good measurements and that he did very well.

Norman

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #469 on: February 17, 2020, 03:04:42 AM »
https://youtu.be/4LgEvwpmuwM
Is it right?

!. Yes You can get them to go up hill.
2. Yes you can get them to release at the end, but only because they fall from the table
or at least lower than the starting height.
3. I don't know exactly how those magets are arranged, but he started of by saying
they are repelled at the start end the ramp.
4. He didn't sat it would self loop, and he knows it will not.

   best wishes
          floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #469 on: February 17, 2020, 03:04:42 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #470 on: February 17, 2020, 03:11:04 AM »
                              CHALLANGE
In the method which I demonstrate, the output (by falling) work  is undone during each cycle, but, the input (by lifting) work is also undone during each cycle.  The output "work" is more than twice the input "work".

The operation you present, must be indefinitely cyclically repeatable. The use of levers and springs is permissible.  In short, demonstrate the cyclical lifting of a greater weight upon the long side of a lever by using a lesser weight upon the short side of that same lever or...... some other mechanically equivalent device which uses mechanical springs.

Mechanical output must exceed mechanical input in each cycle, even if that mechanical output may be undone during each cycle (sums to zero). A mechanical spring or springs may be used in the device.  Remember however, the input mechanical "work" in each cycle, must always be less that the output mechanical "work" during that cycle.

            Meet or exceed the below, or at least exceed 1 to 1.
Cause 115 grams to be lifted 40 units of distance against gravity, by the lowering lowering of 100.75 grams 22 units of distance by gravity.
          In the exemplary demonstration I provide.......
The force ratio is 100.75 grams input to 115 grams output.
The mechanical displacement ratio is 22 units input to 40 units output.
                        The work in to work out ratio is....
      100.75g x 22 = 2216.5 input.   115g x 40 = 4600 output.
As I said (in my exemplary device), the work done both as the lifting and the falling is undone in each cycle.

And what else ?

During the the lifting of the sliding unit weight, 101 grams of finger force, is only required at the initial point of lifting (while the sliding unit scale dial reads 22 degrees and the rotating scale dial reads 40 degrees).  The force that needs to be applied to cause the lifting of the sliding unit weight drops to ZERO GRAMS, once the rotating magnet is 90 degrees off from the sliding magnet and the sliding magnet is at zero distance from the rotating magnet. 

It requires no force (no weight upon the sliding unit pulley) to hold the 115 grams weight when the rotating magnet weight object is at its full height (zero degrees on the rotating scale dial), while the sliding magnet is at its nearest proximity to the rotating magnet (zero degrees upon the sliding unit scale dial).  Actually, it requires LESS THAN ZERO GRAMS of force (as the sliding unit weight), because there is a slight attraction of the sliding magnet to the rotating magnet along the line of its travel (at very near distance) and when at 90 degrees to the rotating magnet.

also......

The sliding unit input finger force curve (from 101 grams to 0 grams) results in an average applied finger force, in lifting the sliding unit weight during the course of the sliding magnet's travel away from the rotating magnet which, I estimate as between 70 and 80 grams average applied finger force over the 22 degrees of sliding magnet travel (curve based on 5, 20 gram weight decrease increments over the 22 degree travel).

This is at most, 80 x 22 = 1760 to the rotating magnet's 4600.   
2.6136...  x 1700 = 4600
4600 - 1700 =  2900

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #471 on: February 17, 2020, 03:30:17 AM »
Hey Norman

I think you might be correct, in that before the full cycle is done
the work is about 5 to 1 or 500%.
....   .....  ..... .....
I have a VCR spindle and rotor that I have been contemplateing using
as a spindle for a replication of your pendulum deign. But the more i think about it
the more it seem that that design will sum to zero.  Although If well built, It might coast for a deceptively / tantalizingly long time.  But then again, one doesn't know some times till one tries.

  best wishes
       floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #471 on: February 17, 2020, 03:30:17 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #472 on: February 17, 2020, 07:05:09 AM »
https://youtu.be/4LgEvwpmuwM
Is it right?

No. There is only one way to show overunity in such case without measurement. It is when there is no initial force to the magnet, and it is brought to the field by speed. If the speed is then increased after leaving the field, then there is a gain of energy. And on an even surface, making the surface uneven only makes calculations more complicated, and shouldn't be done at all if we want to do it without calculations.

In that case, the magnet was released when it had a force to it, somewhat further from the beginning of the magnets chain. Thus the condition of no initial force was not satisfied.

A chain of magnets against each other pole to pole, should make one long magnet, when all magnets are oriented in the direction of the chain. Then the moving magnet also accelerates when moving towards the end of the chain, but decelerates after reaching the end of the chain. Or when the magnets are at a greater distance from each other, then all propulsion comes from the first magnet of the chain, in the field of which the moving magnet was initially put.

Not certain whether the chain of magnets was such, different strength of magnets and their different orientation in some configuration may cause different effects, then also overunity may be possible. But this doesn't matter, as the experiment was not correctly done, and was not valid.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 09:46:34 AM by ayeaye »

Offline kolbacict

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #473 on: February 17, 2020, 07:58:06 AM »

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #473 on: February 17, 2020, 07:58:06 AM »
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Offline norman6538

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #474 on: February 20, 2020, 02:02:08 PM »
Since my health is better and my wife has less nursing requirements from me I have been able to make 4 other devices and each has taught me a lot.  I have to clean up some of my quick and dirty rapid prototype crap to refine my measurements and I have applied the Butch Lafonte attract ballanced with repel to compensate for the attraction when the magnet has twisted and lifted. I can unset that twist with a tiny unit of work when Butch Lafonte balanced well. I finally got that idea last night about dark and cobbled it together quickly.

More in a few days if all goes well.
Get on it guys its great fun.

Norman

Offline norman6538

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #475 on: February 22, 2020, 10:39:26 PM »
I am on version 6 and I made a variable lever with 3 different dowel diameters to be able to refine the power to set and reset the twist drive and this is what I measured today.
1. The device is self setting. ie meaning take my had off and it goes from unset to set and twist and lift a small washer 12.5 cm.
2.  then to unset and unlock from the twisted attraction it takes the same washer 2 cm of drop.
3. so that clearly gives 10 extra units of work for the switching necessary to make it self run.

The extra work out is more than enough.
Next I will begin my clock  work to make it switch from lifting to resetting mode making it a self runner with extra power out too.

Norman
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 01:02:52 AM by norman6538 »

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #475 on: February 22, 2020, 10:39:26 PM »
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Offline kolbacict

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #476 on: February 23, 2020, 12:07:50 PM »
Quote
Since my health is better and my wife has less nursing requirements from me

I'm glad for you of course, but ..
Good to you there ... I envy.  In our country no one will hear you.Nobody needs anyone but himself. Either indifferently will pass by, or say even die, I don't care. :)

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #477 on: February 23, 2020, 02:50:25 PM »
In our country no one will hear you.Nobody needs anyone but himself. Either indifferently will pass by, or say even die, I don't care. :)

Yes i would add to that, expressing one's hostility whenever getting a chance, that's sad.


Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #478 on: March 05, 2020, 07:28:48 PM »
@All readers

I posted this on another topic yesterday..
     But this is a slightly modified version   /  Typo corrected   /   re worded in a few spots



                                                              THE TWIST DRIVE

Twist Drive is the name I gave to a particular class of devices / magnet interactions, which embody specific sets of interactions between magnets. 

My own explorations of magnet interaction first began with a question.  It seems easier to separate two attracted magnets from each another by twisting them apart, rather than by pulling them directly away from each other.  Does it actually require less work to separate the magnets by twisting or is it that there is a kind of magnetic equivalent to leverage, which makes the separating easier, even though technically speaking, the amount of work done is the same either way ?  Pursuit of the answer to that question was a door way into a 7 years long exploration of magnets, their interactions and physics. 

I built my first two test benches, just to examine the differences between sliding, twisting and directly pulling magnets from each other.  The separation by twisting version I called the "twist drive".

I first considered the phrase "Torque Drive", which would have been a name with more  appeal.  I chose instead, to christen it with the some what dorky "Twist Drive".  This was specifically to turn off and / or discourage attention from specific types of viewers / readers.  I'm not trying to create or promote a fad and  my videos and internet time are not monetized.  It is interesting to note, an individual (unknown to me) produced a YouTube video with a diagram of the device, wherein that presenter termed the device as the "Torque Drive".  I'm guessing that presenter expected more views and attention from the sexier name.  Yet another presenter of the "Twist Drive" chose to refer to it as "floor's magnetic torque amplifier".  Note however this presenter chose to present his own and other variations of / on the device, while never actually presenting a replication of the Twist Drive itself.

As an aside.
During the course of these explorations, I arrived at something of an understanding of the Bloch wall model.  The Bloch wall is a molecular structure found in permanent magnets, which provides a kind of magnetic shielding between the magnetic domains within those magnets.  That shielding is not an over unity event in itself, but it does represent / is a form of  magnetic shielding, known to exist in nature.

Now returning to the Twist Drive as topic.
Until recently, I had not fully understood, nor did I have a very complete explanation of, or theory of  why the twist drive interactions could result in over unity.  I was very much so misinformed as to just how substantial the difference between the attracting force and repelling force available between a given two magnets can be under certain conditions.

Be all that as it may and in contrast to its simple appearance, the Twist Drive itself, embodies a complex and extremely difficult to understand set of magnet interactions.  In some specific configurations, the twist drive demonstrates magnet interactions (energy exchanges) which result in a NET energy gain of ZERO (possible using springs).  This is the common view of magnet interactions, and one which is held by scientific convention as the only possibility.  In other specific configurations, the Twist Drive demonstrates dramatic    UNDER UNITY    results, wherein, convention holds that this simply cannot be.  Under unity is just as anomalous as is over unity (if there is no explanation as to where the energy goes).  To my mind, under unity and over unity are equivalent in value as proof of over unity, in that, the one reveals the path to the other.  Other configurations demonstrate  OVER UNITY  (more mechanical work out than is input).


                                                       THE TWIST DRIVE

I have insisted that in order that the reader can know whether the device works as claimed, she or he should see for their self.  Also ... tunnel vision by an experimenter is generally the rule, rather than the exception.  Peer review is essential to the scientific process.  If the claims are exceptional, then exceptional proofs are also needed.  Not only this, but faking results is too easily done in a video format.  Believers only clog up the process.  But please also understand that I DO consider beliefs of a certain order to be of value in one's life, over all.
...
The Twist Drive is not a device which utilizes the kind of magnetic force redirection (magnetic force shielding) which most readers of the "Magnets Motion and Measurement" topic may be familiar with.  It is a "different kind of animal".  Its over unity functioning is dependent upon the fact that the attraction possible between a given two magnets, is typically greater than the repulsion possible between those same two magnets.
...
The shapes of magnets, have major effects upon the how they interact with one another.  The magnets / magnet shapes which I have been using (3/8 by 7/8 by 1 7/8 inch ceramic wafer magnets, poles on the broad faces), give specifically these results.   Edge to edge.
...
Magnetic forces, whether attracting or repelling ones, increase when the distance between a given two magnets is decreased.  Those changes in force magnitude to distance are not linear.

                                Note that RO stands for rotating while SL stands for sliding.

In regard to the forces which motivate the SLIDING of  the SL.........
                                   
In an attraction mode, the rate of change in force magnitude to the change in distance (specifically at VERY near) is nearly linear, (nearly vertical  / over a very small distance) and the rate APPROACHES an inverse square relationship as the magnets get nearer to one another ( from very near until touching).

In a repelling mode, the rate of change in force magnitude to change in distance (specifically at VERY near) is nearly linear, (nearly horizontal over a very small distance) and the rate APPROACHES an inverse square relationship as the magnets get nearer to one another (until touching).

In attraction or repelling mode,  the rate of change in force magnitude to change in distance (specifically at far distances) become nearly linear (nearly horizontal) , and the rate APPROACHES an inverse square relationship.
...
The attraction possible between a given two magnets, is almost always greater than the repulsion possible between those same two magnets.

The DIFFERENCE in the force magnitude between when in an attraction mode and when in a repulsion mode, of a given two magnet, at a given same distance, is greatest when the magnets, are at either a near or very near distance.

The differences in force available during attraction modes and repulsion modes are due to changes in the magnetic polar orientations, of the magnetic domain structures within the magnets  (molecular and atomic domain structures).

                                                       THE TWIST DRIVE

When in repulsion, a given two magnets tend to weaken (demagnetize) each other.  When in attraction the same two magnets tend to strengthen (magnetize) each other.

There is a threshold in coercive magnetic force magnitude which must be reached, before domain reorientation become a major factor.   That force threshold is reached when the ceramic magnets I use, are in near proximity to one another.  The use of differing magnet materials, and the proportion of the strengths of the magnets used (in relationship to each other) will affect the magnet proximity
at which domain reorientations figure prominently.

There are other major factors, such as magnet shape which I do not considered here.
...
                                Note that RO stands for rotating while SL stands for sliding.

In regard to the forces which motivate the ROTATION of  the RO.........

During the rotation of the RO magnet in relationship to the SL magnet, by the magnetic forces, 2 attraction forces and 2 repulsion forces are present and CONTRIBUTING TO the rotation, always. 
................................................
When the RO magnet is crossed at its middle by the SL magnet at 90 degrees ......

As the section of the RO magnet which is ABOVE SL rotates from 90 degrees off from parallel to
SL, toward parallel to SL, the balance between the attracting and repelling forces shifts. 

Simultaneously, as RO rotates, the balances in forces between the section of the RO magnet which is
BELOW SL also shift. 
................................................
Above SL, and during ONE direction of rotation over a 180 degree course from parallel to again parallel.... attraction increases as repulsion decreases, while below SL, attraction decreases as repulsion increases as. 

Above SL, and during the OPPOSITE direction of rotation over a 180 degree course from parallel to again parallel... attraction decreases as repulsion increases, while below SL,  attraction increases as repulsion decreases.

These interactions are very complex, and words alone become utterly insufficient to describe them.  Watch the videos first or you will likely never grasp it. 
................................................
During the course of the RO rotation there are attracting forces (N/S and S/N) which contribute to the RO rotation.  N/S magnet pole orientations support N/S/N/S domain orientations.  N/S/N/S domain orientation are there by increased.  This in turn STRENGTHENS the attracting element's contribution to the rotational forces. 

Simultaneously there are repelling forces (N/N and S/S) which contribute to the RO rotation.  N/N and S/S magnet orientations tend to reduce N/S/N/S domain polar orientations.  This in turn WEAKENS the repulsive element's contribution to the rotation of RO. 


                                                       THE TWIST DRIVE

Up to the point at which RO is parallel to SL,  ONLY SOME of the forces act to increase / maintain N/S/N/S domain orientations.  Other forces (although still contributing to the rotation of RO) act to reduce N/S/N/S domain orientations.

When the SL magnet is aligned parallel to the  RO magnet (the rotation is completed), and the magnets are in attraction as both a  N to S alignment and a S to N alignment.  Now there are ONLY attractions and ALL OF THE FORCES act to, increase / maintain N/S/N/S domain orientations.  Forces are optimized  in terms of  causing the attraction of  magnet SL to magnet RO (straight line in a plane 90 degrees to the plane of RO rotation).

Finally, when the RO to SL, parallel alignment, results in a N to N and a S to S alignment  (both poles repelling),  the FORCE OF REPULSION is considerably weaker over the course of  the SL magnets travel (straight line),      than would be     the FORCE OF ATTRACTION present over the course of the SL magnets travel (straight line), if the RO to SL parallel alignment,  was instead N to S and S to N (both poles attracting).
...

                                                  peace out
                                                             floor


@ all readers



Addemdum   


1. The sliding magnet (SL) is far from the Rotating magnet (RO).  RO is at a right angle to SL
    RO is practically free to rotate (because it is distant from SL)

2. RO is rotated 90 degrees against the very tiny magnetic forces.  (either a clock wise or counter clock wise direction,                (WORK IN)
depending upon magnet polar orientations).  What matter is that SL is now far from RO, but also parallel to and in ATTRACTION
to RO (SL barely wants to slide toward RO).

3. SL is pulled by attraction toward RO, almost touches RO.                                                                                                MAJOR  (WORKOUT)

4. RO is rotated back to 90 degrees off from SL against magnetic forces to  position # 1 again                                         MAJOR  (WORK IN).

5. SL is pulled to far from RO while SL is at 90 degrees off from RO.  This is against small attracting forces which are due to domain re-orientations.   (WORK IN)


           floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Magnets, motion and measurement
« Reply #479 on: March 05, 2020, 07:31:20 PM »
@ All readers

Video link  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d   

   best wishes
             floor

 

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