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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 757076 times)

MileHigh

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2070 on: April 14, 2014, 03:00:00 AM »
I told you that I might answer the question if you actually posed it so that it was comprehensible.  So who is the real troll I wonder?

This is where you fall flat on your face Wayne.  There is the nonsensical "selective memory" when the discussion is only 20 minutes old.  Likewise, you may be able to razzle-dazze a bunch of retired farmers and their wives out of their retirement savings with your ridiculous nonsensical "Wayne's vocabulary" but not me and not here.

Between the selective memory that only lasts 10 minutes and the nonsensical baby talk it's a wonder that you managed to get this far with your prancing fluids fantasies.

MileHigh

mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2071 on: April 14, 2014, 03:00:58 AM »
Such re-use would be a clear violation of the first law. You know the one that says 'Energy cannot be created or destroyed'.

To power an external load, energy is leaving the system, It's up to you to show where energy enters the system to account for this output.

Not Bad, ... my respects.
I will post separately for topic's you said a bunch in one answer.
 
 

mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2072 on: April 14, 2014, 03:12:15 AM »
Such re-use would be a clear violation of the first law. You know the one that says 'Energy cannot be created or destroyed'.

I am not sure you are talking about the same thing ...... how is reuse - creating or destroying energy?
I know what you intended - If the reuse results in more energy than the original - it must be created energy....
I want you to think on that a bit - reused energy ... assumes it was used in the first place correct?
But it does not say that it was consumed....If we consumed the internal pressure - The law of creation / destruction would apply.
As with our first ZED system - we transferred the same displacement left and right - between two ZEDs as many times as we liked - it was never consumed.
 

mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2073 on: April 14, 2014, 03:21:33 AM »

To power an external load, energy is leaving the system, It's up to you to show where energy enters the system to account for this output.

Does the law say that a "external energy" must be accounted for by energy input into a separate system?
I know this is tricky - not meant to be... but if a boat is floating in the pool - does it take more or less energy to add water to the pool?
To jump you ahead a bit - the ratio of water put in to the value of the buoyancy/ mass of the boat make a huge difference to the results of the next proper question:
Does it take more energy in the water to lift the boat and then extract the energy when the pool is drained.....
Depends --- how much energy went into raising the water versus the mass value of the boat....
The discovery of the layered system spanks that answer pretty well.
The ZED layers hooked in series invented a method to raise the water level extremely cheap..
And hooking two together - meant we could reused that water head from one pool to another...
If this is too much... let me know.
Another point - the ratio - that is so important is improved by not dropping the boat/mass to far.

mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2074 on: April 14, 2014, 03:27:08 AM »
If you try to argue no energy enters the system then you are creating that energy out of nothing. That does not happen.


Actually the question shows you do not understand the ZED.
When we put pressure and volume into the ZED - at a extremely reduced volume for the Buoyancy created - No energy is created - a mechanical way to capture gravity - in the form of an elevated mass.... produces energy.
Now if you think Gravity doe not do work - that's a problem..
If you think that it is impossible to float a weight cheaply - you should look into the ZED.
If you think that PV transferred left and right consumes the value... it does cost additional energy to move it left and right - but not the value in the PV.
Thanks

mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2075 on: April 14, 2014, 03:32:22 AM »

If you claim the energy is some how 'coming from gravity' then show exactly how and where a mass is being lifted that requires less energy input than the potential it gains.
I think you should understand this by now...but if you don't..
You just have to lift cheaper than the output..... Hint "Ratio" input volume and pressure to lift....reduces as you add layers.....
I know - that goes against the belief that hooking systems together only adds input --- but not when the serpentine effect reduces the volume of displacement and increases the pressure faster.....
Catch that "layers of buoyancy" as in the ZED reduce Volume and increase the speed to pressure exponentially....
Which means the ratio of pressure times surface area is spanked
When you can do an up cheaper than the value Down----- the conservative idea needs adjusted..
Just saying.....Super conservative....

mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2076 on: April 14, 2014, 03:36:35 AM »

Another source might be expansion in the air it contains. This is perhaps more likely.. the amount of verbiage you produce is more than enough to generate the hot air this would require.
No expansion happens in a ZED to lift - we do not pop up like MarkE insisted.
As I have clearly stated so many times - incompressible fluids reduce the need to pa for the expansion losses...
 
What are the expansion losses - the compression required when raising head inside the ZED?
No. the losses using air are the input volume increase required to reach the proper psi.
Put water and mercury into Mikes spread sheet - and adjust the Load to match.....
SHAZAM!

mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2077 on: April 14, 2014, 03:38:25 AM »
I told you that I might answer the question if you actually posed it so that it was comprehensible.  So who is the real troll I wonder?

This is where you fall flat on your face Wayne.  There is the nonsensical "selective memory" when the discussion is only 20 minutes old.  Likewise, you may be able to razzle-dazze a bunch of retired farmers and their wives out of their retirement savings with your ridiculous nonsensical "Wayne's vocabulary" but not me and not here.

Between the selective memory that only lasts 10 minutes and the nonsensical baby talk it's a wonder that you managed to get this far with your prancing fluids fantasies.

MileHigh
Gee would you repost the question I asked?
 

mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2078 on: April 14, 2014, 03:42:07 AM »
Look Everyone,
I only have five days left before I get too busy to answer questions regarding the technology.
I will check in the morning...
p.s. Hey Liberia.. You think well... I have not seen that in a while - no diversion - just straight thinking...
It is fine you do not "believe" our system is possible - if you dig - you will find the answer.
Wayne
 

MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2079 on: April 14, 2014, 05:02:57 AM »
Diversion Troll
You can't name a one can you, Mr. Fraud?

MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2080 on: April 14, 2014, 05:05:57 AM »
Yep.  You are correct. 

Regarding your comment : "For the dimensions you specify..."

You do remember the reason why those dimensions were selected, right?  To be clear:  the selection of the dimensions of the "Ideal ZED" model were mostly random.  I will concede that I chose one ratio (of height to width) that was recommended by Mr. Travis.

The important point for all to understand about this Analysis of an Ideal ZED is this (IMHO):  If the ZED does NOT react as expected by the currently understood laws of Physics, then could some configuration (Engineering) be capable of providing some benefit from how it does react?
Yet, it has been shown to completely conform to understood laws of physics.  The exceptional behavior that you thought you calculated was all a result of errors on your part.    Make a rock bigger or make a rock smaller and it is still a rock.

LibreEnergia

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2081 on: April 14, 2014, 05:35:47 AM »
I am not sure you are talking about the same thing ...... how is reuse - creating or destroying energy?
I know what you intended - If the reuse results in more energy than the original - it must be created energy....
I want you to think on that a bit - reused energy ... assumes it was used in the first place correct?
But it does not say that it was consumed....If we consumed the internal pressure - The law of creation / destruction would apply.
As with our first ZED system - we transferred the same displacement left and right - between two ZEDs as many times as we liked - it was never consumed.

Correct, 'Reuse' does not create or destroy energy, as energy can only be transformed from one form to another (First law applies).

However you cannot 'have your cake and eat it too'... If the system is powering an EXTERNAL load , then by definition that energy is LEAVING the system. Once it has left, it is not available to the system again. (unless the system replenishes it somehow.)

Consider a spring. A 'perfect' spring will alternate between stored potential and kinetic energy and would oscillate between the those states forever. However if you were to capture the kinetic energy of the oscillation and divert it to an external load then the amount of energy inside the system would diminish.

So, what is the process that is replenishing the potential in a Zed as it oscillates back and forth? You cannot count any part of the oscillation energy as output as you are mistakenly doing.

You seem to believe your system is conceptually different from a spring. It is not, for you cannot explain where the energy comes from that keeps it oscillating while it powers an external load. Your explanations so far fail the 'having and eating cake' problem.

Given you have only be able to demonstrate this device working for a short period of time it should be apparent to you that your apparent 'output' is merely the initial energy it contains (the pre-charge) winding down, perhaps assisted by the 'flow-assist' you speak about.  (I'm assuming by now you've tracked down the last of the leaks)...




bw100007

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2082 on: April 14, 2014, 05:42:30 AM »
Wayne,
Have you been able to connect both left and right ZED's together and keep it running yet  transferring the PV back and forth?  If so for how long?  I have lost touch with the team since posting on the other forum you created has all but stopped. I was the one playing with the closed loop back to back idea.
 

LibreEnergia

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2083 on: April 14, 2014, 05:58:12 AM »
Does the law say that a "external energy" must be accounted for by energy input into a separate system?
I know this is tricky - not meant to be... but if a boat is floating in the pool - does it take more or less energy to add water to the pool?

To jump you ahead a bit - the ratio of water put in to the value of the buoyancy/ mass of the boat make a huge difference to the results of the next proper question:Does it take more energy in the water to lift the boat and then extract the energy when the pool is drained.....
Depends --- how much energy went into raising the water versus the mass value of the boat....
The discovery of the layered system spanks that answer pretty well.
The ZED layers hooked in series invented a method to raise the water level extremely cheap..
And hooking two together - meant we could reused that water head from one pool to another...
If this is too much... let me know.
Another point - the ratio - that is so important is improved by not dropping the boat/mass to far.

You are completely fooling yourself here.  The amount of energy put in to the system is not somehow magically multiplied by the geometry of the masses ,  boat or container.  If you think otherwise then you are absolutely mistaken.

Some geometries may amplify the FORCES involved but the distances those forces can act over is correspondingly reduced as it is simply a lever)

Now, it is true that the layered ZED system when considering forces only does give rise to a 'non linear' lever.

However when considering ENERGY this no longer applies. As the effective leverage of the system changes so to does the distance over which those forces can act change.

Energy is still conserved and no amount of manipulation of the geometry will change that.

 




MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2084 on: April 14, 2014, 06:43:11 AM »
To All,
I am very sorry for the constant interruptions... It is time for the skeptics to become skeptics.
Attacking people and their ideas is not helping anyone - it is just a game to TK, MarkE, Mh, and powercatt.....(got it right this time Pirate-- so sorry)...
I tried very hard for over two years to discuss our discovery only to have every page filled with garbage -
Those men need to work for Jerry Springer.... because as TK said - I look for holes to exploit...(his choice of words)..
 
Well inventors look for problems to solve - not ways to shut thinking down.... Big difference.
Which purpose is this web site here for???
To compete with Jerry Springer - or solve the energy needs?
.......................
I want to thank those of you who have called for proof of claims - and stopped the diversions..
Most of all - Those of you who support research, put your hands on tests, and due diligence!
Take care
The fraud Wayne Travis speaks.  The fraud bemoans his critics for pointing out that his false claims are belied by math physics and his own actions.  He tlls fanciful tales of being interested in evidence and proof.  Yet, he consistently offers none, and he never will.