Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED (Read 755135 times)

LibreEnergia · « **Reply #2145 on:** April 15, 2014, 02:28:16 AM »

Quote from: webby1 on April 15, 2014, 12:16:29 AM

Battery charger === battery.

Battery flat

Charger charges battery

No external work is done???

You did kind of change things there.

The accumulator runs the assist rams, the ZED charges the depleted accumulator,, and if the ZED puts more fluid into the accumulator, then the ZED has charged the accumulator up.

No , EXTERNAL work is not done and I cannot believe why you would think it is. The system under consideration is '2 batteries + 1 generator'. The energy in the system oscillates back and forth between the two batteries. (in-fact a generator would only allow the charge to equalise in each battery but let us assume the conversion can be 100% efficient) just as it does in a pair of ZEDs

However , If you remove the energy contained in a charged battery to an external load it stops immediately, just as a ZED does.

LibreEnergia · « **Reply #2146 on:** April 15, 2014, 02:45:45 AM »

Quote from: webby1 on April 15, 2014, 02:39:15 AM

I get that,, but that is not the case *IF* the ZED moves more fluid into the accumulator than the assist rams use.

Then it is not 2 batteries it is 2 motors running with one generator and one battery,, the assist rams being a motor and the ZED being a motor and the production rams being the generator.

To test for that things would need to be monitored, as in fill height of the fluid in the accumulator and the reservoir, and then it would need to be run to see if the system keeps on keeping on while filling up the accumulator.

'IF' the zed behaves as you say then yes it would be producing net energy output that could be used to power a load.

However it doesn't and cannot ever function like that. Such a device runs headlong into the limitations of the First Law. Energy would be leaving the system but it is not being replenished. If it is replenished if can't just coming from 'nowhere' as this would imply it is being created within the device and as yet no plausible explanation has been offered for how it does that.

LibreEnergia · « **Reply #2147 on:** April 15, 2014, 04:58:11 AM »

Quote from: webby1 on April 15, 2014, 04:10:05 AM

Well,, as I have been told many times pressure is not energy,, and it is the pressure that leaves the system.

This is kind of the crux of the matter really,, the fluid must stay with the system, even if dumped into a reservoir,, but the pressure that went with it does not come back,, so *is* that energy leaving the system??

Think of it like a spring. As a spring is compressed it gains potential. If we then remove that spring from the system and allow it to expand it can power an external load. If we then place it back in the system, it has lost it's potential. The spring still exists, but something inside the system would need to recompress it.

We could replace the spring with another mechanism that extracts energy from the system but a spring is a convenient way to think about it.

Wayne's world seems to imply that the 'spring' would somehow magically recompress as it is placed back in.
This is his 're-use the input' fallacy which hopefully by now you are starting to see is completely false.

mrwayne · « **Reply #2148 on:** April 15, 2014, 05:33:12 AM »

Quote from: LibreEnergia on April 15, 2014, 04:58:11 AM

Think of it like a spring. As a spring is compressed it gains potential. If we then remove that spring from the system and allow it to expand it can power an external load. If we then place it back in the system, it has lost it's potential. The spring still exists, but something inside the system would need to recompress it.

We could replace the spring with another mechanism that extracts energy from the system but a spring is a convenient way to think about it.

Wayne's world seems to imply that the 'spring' would somehow magically recompress as it is placed back in.
This is his 're-use the input' fallacy which hopefully by now you are starting to see is completely false.

Interesting, and confusing... the output is Buoyancy that is immediately turned into stored hydraulic pressure - which we used to both run the Horizontal transfer and a hydraulic motor to power the generator......
What do you think I am talking about - MarkE's imaginary machine - or mine?
Ours ZED - you utilize the buoyant lift - for what ever you want...
Now the question is - can we turn the buoyancy on cheaply?

?
In fact - can we turn it on cheaper then the transfer cost......

Well - in fact we can - and did - even our old system gererated twice the production (from the Buoyancy - than the transfer consumed...
Watch the original video closely...
And as far as the accumulator being a battery - - yep you bet..... stored the fluid till we needed it and maintained pressure..
Now the kicker - how do you tell if you are using the accumulator to power the system - or if you are filling it?
Easy answer - the accumulator pressure increases as it is filled....yep.
Here is what anyone could see --- the head pressures went up and down - in both ZEDS, corresponding with which direction the Pv was being transferred..
Second during the stroke - the production pressure exceeded the Accumulator...
The accumulator dropped pressure as the assist began - and then climbed as the production began.
And here is the kicker - we did not want the pressure to climb too high - so we bled off the production to the reservoir - not much just enough to keep the resistance on the production cylinders form climbing out of range.
Librea... I guess you can go a head and conclude what you think is Magic, or fallacy.... I am sure it is my fault.
I do not know why understanding is limited to a Law...... what is the point of looking?
Take care.
Wayne

Take care...

mrwayne · « **Reply #2149 on:** April 15, 2014, 05:36:59 AM »

Quote from: powercat on April 14, 2014, 07:48:18 PM

Four days left for what ? before you leave the forum for ever,,, before you get arrested,,, before you discover you missed it - we will all be waiting your return hopefully sometime in October 2015. As according to your statements you can't released any relevant information until then

Quote from: mrwayne on March 10, 2014, 11:24:14 AM
This is my Final Farewell to O/U.comI am not legally able to show TK my "Suasages" again.It is clear MarkE has only one intention... I did have hope. Wayne

Yes Powercat, the sad day is coming......soon - now only three days left....

mrwayne · « **Reply #2150 on:** April 15, 2014, 05:40:41 AM »

Quote from: webby1 on April 14, 2014, 11:33:21 PM

unless the accumulator was storing more fluid inside itself,, then it is a store and not external work being done,, sure,, but to the ZED that would still be external work performed.

Webby,
If you ever get anything other than diversions and word games from these people - let me know.
Thanks
Wayne

MarkE · « **Reply #2151 on:** April 15, 2014, 05:46:50 AM »

Quote from: webby1 on April 14, 2014, 09:22:30 PM

What a load of garbage Mark.

You must be in a bad place to utter such trash.

LOL

Quote

So, lets apply this elsewhere so that we can understand the two POV's.

Is charging a battery doing work?

If the machine in question is a battery charger then charging an external battery amounts to doing external work. If the machine in question includes the battery, then charging that internal component does not amount to energy output.

Quote

I say yes.

If you do so without defining the boundaries of the machine then you present yourself as confused about what the word "output" means.

Quote

Is charging a battery doing external work.

I say yes.

Here, IIUC you are saying no.

See above about understanding the boundaries of a system.

Quote

What is Mark Dansie's job? is it not to evaluate such things? In the video I linked to you can even hear Mark asking about part of the hydrualic lines and stuff that he showed in the video. You are grasping there Mark E.

LOL. Mark Dansie has stated in no uncertain terms his position. You have invented fantasies.

Quote

I noticed that you BOLDED the lines you think are important,, read them again REAL slow,," my public stance as of interest but not supported by any data I have seen to date." No data,, why are you reading something more into that?

It means exactly what it says. No data.

Quote

I also looked at the video,, and the diagrams of the device,, and its hydraulic lines,, maybe that is outside your area of expertise,, that is to use your eyes.
It is people like you who destroy what this community is all about.

Great! So kindly point to the output. Show the external work that the device performs.

Quote

It is fine for people to disagree and or have different views and express them,, but then there are people like you who choose to twist and misrepresent things, and then all the name calling and other childish stuff.

You actively support an investment fraud.

mrwayne · « **Reply #2152 on:** April 15, 2014, 05:55:24 AM »

Quote from: LibreEnergia on April 15, 2014, 02:45:45 AM

'IF' the zed behaves as you say then yes it would be producing net energy output that could be used to power a load.

However it doesn't and cannot ever function like that. Such a device runs headlong into the limitations of the First Law. Energy would be leaving the system but it is not being replenished. If it is replenished if can't just coming from 'nowhere' as this would imply it is being created within the device and as yet no plausible explanation has been offered for how it does that.

Hello Librea.... - I thought you totally missed it - but you did not - you just don't believe it - and no plausible answer has been offered....
Well that is the hard part - I actually gave you the answer - but it apparently did not make sense.
Here it is in shortened version - the Series connection of the layers mechanically allows for the reduction of input required to create buoyancy - which simultaneously produces (hydraulic production) and stores the input in the form of head pressure.
The buoyancy can be generated more efficiently than a seal less hydraulic cylinder -
And after that generation - the head pressure can be used to offset and reduce the cost of the other ZED - additionally improving the performance of each stroke.
Our little ZED was 160% efficient....
Here is your problem and many others - the answer is so simple you ignore it.....
It is your assumption that breaking the laws of conservation in a process must exceed understanding...... and sadly - it is so simple.
..............................
Those two points is all you need - so the question about the Math should be - how efficient is the lift of the ZED?
How much of the Head can be reused?
You only need to know those two things to see "what was made harder by assuming difficulty".
If you can step outside what is assumed and see what is presented.... it is eye opening.
Thanks Good night

mrwayne · « **Reply #2153 on:** April 15, 2014, 06:03:47 AM »

Quote from: MarkE on April 15, 2014, 05:46:50 AM

LOLIf the machine in question is a battery charger then charging an external battery amounts to doing external work. If the machine in question includes the battery, then charging that internal component does not amount to energy output.If you do so without defining the boundaries of the machine then you present yourself as confused about what the word "output" means.See above about understanding the boundaries of a system.LOL. Mark Dansie has stated in no uncertain terms his position. You have invented fantasies.It means exactly what it says. No data.Great! So kindly point to the output. Show the external work that the device performs.You actively support an investment fraud.

Oh my slippery little friend... we collected plenty of DATA.... smile.....
Who we shared it with is our business - if you read what was - stop adding and subtracting to make it what you want to hear... you would have understood.... but then you would not be a Troll.
If Stefan deleted you for your continual attack, lies, and slander on members here - this would be a decent site.

mrwayne · « **Reply #2154 on:** April 15, 2014, 06:04:40 AM »

Three days left,
Good night!

orbut 3000 · « **Reply #2155 on:** April 15, 2014, 06:08:01 AM »

Quote from: mrwayne on April 15, 2014, 05:33:12 AM

Interesting, and confusing... the output is Buoyancy that is immediately turned into stored hydraulic pressure - which we used to both run the Horizontal transfer and a hydraulic motor to power the generator......
What do you think I am talking about - MarkE's imaginary machine - or mine?
Ours ZED - you utilize the buoyant lift - for what ever you want...
Now the question is - can we turn the buoyancy on cheaply? ?
In fact - can we turn it on cheaper then the transfer cost......
Well - in fact we can - and did - even our old system gererated twice the production (from the Buoyancy - than the transfer consumed...
Watch the original video closely...
And as far as the accumulator being a battery - - yep you bet..... stored the fluid till we needed it and maintained pressure..
Now the kicker - how do you tell if you are using the accumulator to power the system - or if you are filling it?
Easy answer - the accumulator pressure increases as it is filled....yep.
Here is what anyone could see --- the head pressures went up and down - in both ZEDS, corresponding with which direction the Pv was being transferred..
Second during the stroke - the production pressure exceeded the Accumulator...
The accumulator dropped pressure as the assist began - and then climbed as the production began.
And here is the kicker - we did not want the pressure to climb too high - so we bled off the production to the reservoir - not much just enough to keep the resistance on the production cylinders form climbing out of range.
Librea... I guess you can go a head and conclude what you think is Magic, or fallacy.... I am sure it is my fault.
I do not know why understanding is limited to a Law...... what is the point of looking?
Take care.
Wayne

Take care...

Oh, look! Wayne McFraud graces us with another unintelligible wall of text. Thank you, you great teacher and inventor of scientific terms of your own creation. The enlightenment must strike any minute now.

Or, perhaps, it's just the same old dullshit father wayne uses to emit.

MarkE · « **Reply #2156 on:** April 15, 2014, 06:10:08 AM »

Quote from: mrwayne on April 14, 2014, 05:54:28 PM

First - another of your lies - which you were called out on at Pesn - Tom called it the travis effect - as it was stated in the article above your lies on Pesn.

Even though there is no Travis Effect you routinely use the term yourself as part of your fraud promotion.

Quote

You were also called out for lying about MD words - which were also in the article, and you also lied claiming you spread sheet the wholething..and proved it could not work...

The fraud: Wayne Travis presents his revisionist history.

Quote

It cracks me up when you suddenly realize their is a load on the system.....

Really? You have yet to identify an external load that the supposed output drives.

Quote

Second - show where in history where buoyancy has been explained to exceed the mass displaced...

Once again you parade your ignorance. You confuse mass with weight and ignore Archimedes' Paradox even though it has been pointed out to you many times.

Quote

Is it jealousy..... oh my....or just having fun as a liar?

I enjoy letting frauds like you put themselves on full display for what you are.

Quote

You have no credibility what so ever...

And each time you insult good people. well you dig deeper.

So says the fraud: Wayne Travis.

MarkE · « **Reply #2157 on:** April 15, 2014, 06:23:32 AM »

Quote from: webby1 on April 15, 2014, 02:39:15 AM

I get that,, but that is not the case *IF* the ZED moves more fluid into the accumulator than the assist rams use.

There is no direct relationship between fluid volume and energy.

Quote

Then it is not 2 batteries it is 2 motors running with one generator and one battery,, the assist rams being a motor and the ZED being a motor and the production rams being the generator.

Shuffling energy within the confines of a system has nothing to do with delivering energy output.

Quote

To test for that things would need to be monitored, as in fill height of the fluid in the accumulator and the reservoir, and then it would need to be run to see if the system keeps on keeping on while filling up the accumulator.

No, in order to determine output, the actual energy that the system delivers is measured.

LibreEnergia · « **Reply #2158 on:** April 15, 2014, 06:27:25 AM »

Quote from: mrwayne on April 15, 2014, 05:33:12 AM

Librea... I guess you can go a head and conclude what you think is Magic, or fallacy.... I am sure it is my fault.
I do not know why understanding is limited to a Law...... what is the point of looking?

Your problem is that you are not smart enough to realise that our understanding IS limited to and defined by a 'law'. When I studied engineering I spent years sifting through the mathematics and realised that there are no exceptions to the law of conservation of energy, mass and momentum when considering the motion of objects within a gravitational field (or another conservative system)

It is comprehensively proven mathematically. So in effect no, to my mind there is no point in looking.

Unless you pose a new non-conservative theory of gravity and show it to be supported by observable facts then I'm not interested in analysing your device even one step further.

As a starting point you need to show how you can lift a mass in a way that requires less energy than the potential it gains.
Your buoyancy scheme does nothing of the sort. You only consider forces, not energy. forces are not conserved , energy is.

MarkE · « **Reply #2159 on:** April 15, 2014, 06:33:54 AM »

Quote from: webby1 on April 15, 2014, 04:10:05 AM

Well,, as I have been told many times pressure is not energy,, and it is the pressure that leaves the system.

Presure leaves the system? LOL

Quote

This is kind of the crux of the matter really,, the fluid must stay with the system, even if dumped into a reservoir,, but the pressure that went with it does not come back,, so *is* that energy leaving the system??

Pressure is not energy. A cinder block can deliver pressure all day long. How much energy do you think that is?

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