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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 502387 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #945 on: January 13, 2015, 10:08:00 PM »
No, when one wishes to argue against established understanding it is up to the challenger to provide convincing evidence.

As human beings we do not have any absolute knowledge.  Philosphers get to argue about such matters while never attaining absolute knowledge anymore than anyone else.   We can absolutely predict with deadly accuracy: static electric, static magnetic, and electrodynamic behaviors to incredibly high accuracies.   That we are able to do so, very strongly suggests that we have a very strong grasp of how the elements interact.  If someone wants to make a dent in the set of beliefs that allow us to do this, then they need to find at least one situation where their new idea makes better predictions, while making equally accurate predictions as established beliefs in all other cases.  It is a very tall order.  So no, I reject the idea that one has to have a fundamental answer to the theory of everything in order to adhere to established scientific beliefs: IE physical laws.  To paraphrase Dr. Sheehan:  "Laws are laws until they aren't."  Come up with a case of where the laws fail.  Then come up with a better answer.

Well that didnt get us very far,so im guessing were sticking to theories ATM.

It is great that you believe we have a good grasp on whats going on with magnetic field's,so i will take the time to ask you another question.

Im sure you have seen some guys around here(including myself) make those induction water heater's-the one's with a looped coil of copper pipe filled with water,and in the center of this looped copper pipe is a rotor with PM's in it. They spin the rotor up,eddy currents heat the copper pipe,and thus the water in side the pipe. So we know an equal and opposite force is created between the rotor and copper-the drag on the rotor is the same as the drag on the copper pipe. But my question is this-the copper pipe and water gets hot,but do the magnets on the rotor also get hot?-we are assuming that the copper pipe is insulated,and radiant heat from the copper pipe dose not heat the rotating magnets.

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #946 on: January 13, 2015, 10:10:21 PM »
@Mark
DWFTTW
Quote
A lot of well educated people did not think that it could work.  But there
were no laws that it broke.
I would agree and that was my point,  hovever we should be perfectly clear that almost all the experts claimed the Down Wind Faster than the Wind technology must violate the laws of physics and be a perpetual motion machine... Period... no futher debate required. They used the laws to justify their misguided opinions simply because they didn't understand what was happening, that is what I'm talking about. Let's not sugar coat this because they made themselves look absolutely stupid and it is still archived all over the net for all to see.
If they actually had any real integrity they would have given the proper response which is -- "I do not know we will have to wait for more facts" --because those are the facts but saying it must violate the laws of physics is obviously a lie.

AC

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #947 on: January 13, 2015, 10:17:39 PM »
@Mark
DWFTTWI would agree and that was my point,  hovever we should be perfectly clear that almost all the experts claimed the Down Wind Faster than the Wind technology must violate the laws of physics and be a perpetual motion machine... Period... no futher debate required. They used the laws to justify their misguided opinions simply because they didn't understand what was happening, that is what I'm talking about. Let's not sugar coat this because they made themselves look absolutely stupid and it is still archived all over the net for all to see.
If they actually had any real integrity they would have given the proper response which is -- "I do not know we will have to wait for more facts" --because those are the facts but saying it must violate the laws of physics is obviously a lie.

AC
There's the money shot right there AC-well done.

They had a good handle on there laws-->until the back yard boys blew them out of the water. But as always,it was just an oversite--it's all fixed now ;)

Floor

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #948 on: January 13, 2015, 10:20:37 PM »
This one really is for the questioning.

Please find below the PDF file ”resurrection” .


               Cheers
                      floor

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #949 on: January 13, 2015, 10:27:46 PM »
This one really is for the questioning.

Please find below the PDF file ”resurrection” .


               Cheers
                      floor
You know that SMOTs don't work don't you?

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #950 on: January 13, 2015, 10:33:43 PM »
@Tinman
Quote
There's the money shot right there AC-well done.
They had a good handle on
there laws-->until the back yard boys blew them out of the water. But as
always,it was just an oversite--it's all fixed now
It really irritates me that this same juvenile behavior still continues today and that so many people are claiming that something is impossible or must violate the laws of physics without having any knowledge of what is actually happening. The fact remains that the scientific community called the DWFTTW engineers liers to their face and prostituted their laws to justify their own misguided opinions. They lied outright to everyone then when proven wrong they tried to sugar coat the whole scenario so they wouldn't look like the fools they obviously are, it was embarrassing for everyone involved.
So the lesson here is we should not be so quick to judge anyone until we have all the facts regardless of who we are or what we think we know. Context Matters
AC
 

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #951 on: January 13, 2015, 10:55:25 PM »
This is the truth EMJ,and i was here for the Ainslie saga from the start-->that was a hoot for sure.

Although we may not agree on all things all the time,the 3 above mentioned have my upmost respect. As far as disagreeing some times with what one another may think is right or wrong,well the world would be a pretty boaring stale place to be in if we all thought the same.

We all have our win's every now and then,but you will find MH,poynt and TK nail it 99.99% of the time-->hell,TK even had to correct MarkE there once not to far back in this thread,and i even got to correct MH once(i believe was also in this thread?),and that came about from experiments and bench time-->i think thats the only one for me but with these 3 guy's lol.

@Tinman - Yes, sometimes it is down to interpretation, How one Understands something can be quite different sometimes!

Still, key word research is the best way I have found to look for information!

There are some very smart guys here, this is not in doubt!

Ed Skilling had the following to say about Lester J Hendershot:

"His native intelligence was extremely high."

and also

"When compared to T. Henry Moray, Hendershot in my opinion was a giant."

Hendershot had been educated to high school level and had only the most basic understanding of conventional electrical theory!

Kind Regards

  Chris

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #952 on: January 13, 2015, 11:32:19 PM »
@TinmanIt really irritates me that this same juvenile behavior still continues today and that so many people are claiming that something is impossible or must violate the laws of physics without having any knowledge of what is actually happening. The fact remains that the scientific community called the DWFTTW engineers liers to their face and prostituted their laws to justify their own misguided opinions. They lied outright to everyone then when proven wrong they tried to sugar coat the whole scenario so they wouldn't look like the fools they obviously are, it was embarrassing for everyone involved.
So the lesson here is we should not be so quick to judge anyone until we have all the facts regardless of who we are or what we think we know. Context Matters
AC

@AC and ALL - DWFTTW

DWFTTW URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHsXcHoJu-A

For some 300 years, a device has been built and no dispute about weather it works has been presented!

It works, Simple, it works!, no dispute, its used everyday by many thousands and thousands of people.

The Hydraulic Ram Pump

This pump is an Un-Stable System - Earnshaw's Theorem permits this due to the Inverse Square Law of Gravity! One could call this a Gravitic Oscillator!

The Hydraulic Ram Pump URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlkuZjd2Frc

and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqDkd7KdPg

I wasn't going to reply to this post and see if people were going to take it up! This is a very relevant and essential topic!

To say SMOT's (Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy) don't work is, in my opinion foolish.

It works if the right conditions are met!

SMOT URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5mYm5nO5Fw&index=2&list=PL18F92E8FE71E9FBA

Howard Johnson also built a similar thing. It also worked!

Kind Regards

  Chris

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #953 on: January 14, 2015, 12:04:20 AM »
Well that didnt get us very far,so im guessing were sticking to theories ATM.

It is great that you believe we have a good grasp on whats going on with magnetic field's,so i will take the time to ask you another question.

Im sure you have seen some guys around here(including myself) make those induction water heater's-the one's with a looped coil of copper pipe filled with water,and in the center of this looped copper pipe is a rotor with PM's in it. They spin the rotor up,eddy currents heat the copper pipe,and thus the water in side the pipe. So we know an equal and opposite force is created between the rotor and copper-the drag on the rotor is the same as the drag on the copper pipe. But my question is this-the copper pipe and water gets hot,but do the magnets on the rotor also get hot?-we are assuming that the copper pipe is insulated,and radiant heat from the copper pipe dose not heat the rotating magnets.
Do we agree that it is the eddy currents induced in the copper pipe that do the heating?  Do we agree that if we accelerate a mass in a frictionless environment that neither the acceleration nor the resultant velocity heat the mass? Do we agree that the power induced in a coil is:  VINDUCED2/R?  Do we agree that where R is small as in a chunk of copper that the resulting power is much greater than where R is much larger as in a magnet?

If we agree on all these points, do you still have a question?

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #954 on: January 14, 2015, 12:53:46 AM »
You know that SMOTs don't work don't you?

Clearly he does NOT know, or believe, that SMOTs don't work! Just look at what he's posted! 

Go ahead, EMJunkie. Please go to work and make a self-looping SMOT! I don't think you should post anything else until you get one working, running by itself. After all, your posted .pdf says "can this be looped? Yes!" and you claim that the video shows a "working" SMOT! So go to it! Put those wonderful critical thinking and building skills to work and PROVE ME WRONG. Make a self-looped SMOT! Simple, right? I laugh at you!
You cannot do it!

And how about a hydraulic ram pump? Make one that pumps water back up into its reservoir and just keeps on pumping the same water around and around, without you helping it by supplying _excess water_ from an upper reservoir. Hundreds and hundreds of years! Go ahead, make one that works in a closed loop!
You cannot!

And it is clear that you are unaware of the _real_ scientific discussion that has happened concerning the DWFTTW efforts. Some people didn't believe it at first glance, that is true. It is also true that many of those openminded disbelievers carried out a rational discussion, built models and finally convinced themselves that it was possible, before the definitive demonstrations that we have all seen on YT. This issue is +unrelated+, except in your mind.

Why don't you drag out the old canard about the Wright Brothers, next, where you claim that they did what "every scientist" believed was impossible, while you ignore the fact that they had examples from nature, examples from models, man-carrying kites, soaring gliders, the work of other people, and years of their own _scientific_ research to build upon before they flew their first _powered_ airplane.

You're a real hoot EMJunkie. Produce a self-looped SMOT to back up your silly claims, or everyone will know that you are just another blowhard false claimant like so many we have seen here, claiming something that is not true.  YOU CANNOT !!  You've really stuck your foot in your mouth now, with your support of SMOT claims. Get to work! SIMPLE magnetic overunity toy. Howard Johnson! Your pdf! The video you linked! Where is your PROOF of OU, your self looped SMOT? You cannot do it!!!

Quote
It works if the right conditions are met!
Yes... if you supply power from the outside! By Mister Hand!

You get a ROFL for that one!

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #955 on: January 14, 2015, 01:13:32 AM »
Clearly he does NOT know, or believe, that SMOTs don't work! Just look at what he's posted! 

Go ahead, EMJunkie. Please go to work and make a self-looping SMOT! I don't think you should post anything else until you get one working, running by itself. After all, your posted .pdf says "can this be looped? Yes!" and you claim that the video shows a "working" SMOT! So go to it! Put those wonderful critical thinking and building skills to work and PROVE ME WRONG. Make a self-looped SMOT! Simple, right? I laugh at you!
You cannot do it!

And how about a hydraulic ram pump? Make one that pumps water back up into its reservoir and just keeps on pumping the same water around and around, without you helping it by supplying _excess water_ from an upper reservoir. Hundreds and hundreds of years! Go ahead, make one that works in a closed loop!
You cannot!

And it is clear that you are unaware of the _real_ scientific discussion that has happened concerning the DWFTTW efforts. Some people didn't believe it at first glance, that is true. It is also true that many of those openminded disbelievers carried out a rational discussion, built models and finally convinced themselves that it was possible, before the definitive demonstrations that we have all seen on YT. This issue is +unrelated+, except in your mind.

Why don't you drag out the old canard about the Wright Brothers, next, where you claim that they did what "every scientist" believed was impossible, while you ignore the fact that they had examples from nature, examples from models, man-carrying kites, soaring gliders, the work of other people, and years of their own _scientific_ research to build upon before they flew their first _powered_ airplane.

You're a real hoot EMJunkie. Produce a self-looped SMOT to back up your silly claims, or everyone will know that you are just another blowhard false claimant like so many we have seen here, claiming something that is not true.  YOU CANNOT !!  You've really stuck your foot in your mouth now, with your support of SMOT claims. Get to work! SIMPLE magnetic overunity toy. Howard Johnson! Your pdf! The video you linked! Where is your PROOF of OU, your self looped SMOT? You cannot do it!!!
Yes... if you supply power from the outside! By Mister Hand!

You get a ROFL for that one!

TinselKoala - Youre a FOOL! Blind and Intellectually Handicaped! Oil Company Troll!

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #956 on: January 14, 2015, 01:16:54 AM »
Clearly he does NOT know, or believe, that SMOTs don't work! Just look at what he's posted! 

Go ahead, EMJunkie. Please go to work and make a self-looping SMOT! I don't think you should post anything else until you get one working, running by itself. After all, your posted .pdf says "can this be looped? Yes!" and you claim that the video shows a "working" SMOT! So go to it! Put those wonderful critical thinking and building skills to work and PROVE ME WRONG. Make a self-looped SMOT! Simple, right? I laugh at you!
You cannot do it!

And how about a hydraulic ram pump? Make one that pumps water back up into its reservoir and just keeps on pumping the same water around and around, without you helping it by supplying _excess water_ from an upper reservoir. Hundreds and hundreds of years! Go ahead, make one that works in a closed loop!
You cannot!

And it is clear that you are unaware of the _real_ scientific discussion that has happened concerning the DWFTTW efforts. Some people didn't believe it at first glance, that is true. It is also true that many of those openminded disbelievers carried out a rational discussion, built models and finally convinced themselves that it was possible, before the definitive demonstrations that we have all seen on YT. This issue is +unrelated+, except in your mind.

Why don't you drag out the old canard about the Wright Brothers, next, where you claim that they did what "every scientist" believed was impossible, while you ignore the fact that they had examples from nature, examples from models, man-carrying kites, soaring gliders, the work of other people, and years of their own _scientific_ research to build upon before they flew their first _powered_ airplane.

You're a real hoot EMJunkie. Produce a self-looped SMOT to back up your silly claims, or everyone will know that you are just another blowhard false claimant like so many we have seen here, claiming something that is not true.  YOU CANNOT !!  You've really stuck your foot in your mouth now, with your support of SMOT claims. Get to work! SIMPLE magnetic overunity toy. Howard Johnson! Your pdf! The video you linked! Where is your PROOF of OU, your self looped SMOT? You cannot do it!!!
Yes... if you supply power from the outside! By Mister Hand!

You get a ROFL for that one!

Does one PAY for the Water running down the stream? No Fool!
Does one PAY for the Flux that extrudes from the Pole of a Permanent Magnet? No Fool!
Does one PAY for the Wind to keep the Wind Turbine going? No Fool!
Does one PAY for the Gravitational Forces that hold your feet on the Earths Surface? No Fool!

See what I mean - Intellectually Handicapped!

Blind and Ignorant you stupid Oil Company Fool!

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #957 on: January 14, 2015, 01:17:51 AM »
There's the money shot right there AC-well done.

They had a good handle on there laws-->until the back yard boys blew them out of the water. But as always,it was just an oversite--it's all fixed now ;)
You can call aeronautical SME's "back yard boys" if you like.  In any event, they knew their subject matter backwards and forwards.  They: came up with the concept, proved it on paper (simulations), and then went and built a working proof of concept.  Analysis, simulation, and experiment all correlated.  A lot of smart people were deceived by their own intuition.  That happens.  That's why reliable data always tells the real story.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #958 on: January 14, 2015, 01:28:37 AM »
@Mark
DWFTTWI would agree and that was my point,  hovever we should be perfectly clear that almost all the experts claimed the Down Wind Faster than the Wind technology must violate the laws of physics and be a perpetual motion machine... Period... no futher debate required.
You must have seen different debates than I did.  The debates I saw, many engineers and scientists said that the land yacht would lose all further thrust once its air speed reached zero.  I don't recall anyone calling it perpetual motion.
Quote
They used the laws to justify their misguided opinions simply because they didn't understand what was happening, that is what I'm talking about.
They misanalyzed the device.  Those who behaved badly got a big serving of well deserved crow.
Quote
Let's not sugar coat this because they made themselves look absolutely stupid and it is still archived all over the net for all to see.
With respect to those who behaved badly I agree they hurt their own reputations.  Those who got it wrong but behaved honorably can shrug off the fact that they are human and everyone makes mistakes.
Quote
If they actually had any real integrity they would have given the proper response which is -- "I do not know we will have to wait for more facts" --because those are the facts but saying it must violate the laws of physics is obviously a lie.
Those who stated "It would violate the laws of physics"were genuine in their opinions and did have a logical albeit incorrect basis in fact for those beliefs.  The people behind the claim did what anyone who makes an extraordinary (or in this case only seemingly extraordinary) claim need to do:  They gathered irrefutable evidence that backed their correct DWFTTW claim.
Quote

AC

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #959 on: January 14, 2015, 01:37:41 AM »
And how about a hydraulic ram pump? Make one that pumps water back up into its reservoir and just keeps on pumping the same water around and around, without you helping it by supplying _excess water_ from an upper reservoir. Hundreds and hundreds of years! Go ahead, make one that works in a closed loop!
You cannot!

TinselKoala - This is the most FOOLISH Stupid, IDIOT sentence I have ever read in my entire life!

Clearly your Intellectual Handicap does not allow you to use Comprehensive Fundamental Rational reason to advance anyone or anything!

Youre a defeatist! In your heart you believe that nothing can be done!

I was 14 years old when I built my first Ram Pump, and Yes it worked. As do All Ram Pumps once constructed correctly!

The most simple thing in the world, 2 moving parts and it defeats your pathetic inability too see past your very own Ignorance!

Wow you are now the most silly person on ou.com! I am totally gob smacked at your stupidity!