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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 331333 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« on: September 27, 2014, 11:54:29 PM »
New topic for some members who want to contribute to this topic.

Regards, Stefan.

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Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« on: September 27, 2014, 11:54:29 PM »

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2014, 12:20:55 AM »
Great topic title. Much more titillating than, say....

 "Come put on a show of personality conflicts, squabbling, bickering, and other reality show style drama to increase site traffic and keep the forum chugging along!"

Where there is conflict, hey, at least there's energy. 


TS

Offline poynt99

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2014, 06:08:52 PM »
I asked Stefan to create this topic because on this forum there is an underlying deficiency in basic knowledge about how magnets and electromagnets work.

Many people here are working with and measuring magnets and electromagnets and are misinterpreting the information they are gathering about them. In order to interpret that data correctly, you first need to have a good understanding of the fundamentals about magnetic fields. The aim of this thread will be to present the fundamentals and have an open forum discussion about them.

A number of myths and misconceptions will also be listed and an attempt made to properly address each as they are presented.

Here are a number of myths and misconceptions to start:

1. Conventional permanent magnets and coils/inductors (cored or not cored) inherently exhibit a Bloch wall as part of their existence, usually as either a dead or transition zone in the middle of the magnet or coil.

2. Permanent magnets exhibit a neutral zone in the middle where there is either a very weak or no field at all.

3.
When I move my Hall probe around my magnet or coil, I see null zones in my readings as they go from +'ve to -'Ve on the scale, therefore this proves that there are Bloch walls and neutral zones in magnets and coils.

4.
The field of a magnet is stronger at its "poles" compared to the field strength at the magnet's center.

5.
The traditional depiction of a magnet with half of it shaded blue (north pole) and the other half shaded red (south pole) is an accurate representation of how a magnet really works and how the field lines run through and around it.

Points 1. - 5. above are all false and incorrect.

The first 4 myths and misconceptions could easily be cleared up if one were to first clear up myth number 5. But let's deal with the "Bloch wall" misunderstanding first.

First and foremost, Bloch walls can only exist inside ferromagnetic material, so that immediately eliminates air and copper.

Bloch walls CAN exist inside ferromagnetic materials such as iron and strontium ferrite (ceramic magnets) for example. They exist when inside the ferromagnetic material, there are adjacent magnetic domains that are oriented in different directions. This happens in an unmagnetized piece of iron for example (the domains are random), or when a contiguous piece of ferromagnetic material has purposely been magnetized in more than one direction in different sections of the material.

Note that Bloch walls typically do not exist inside the ferromagnetic core of a coil. The core is typically situated "inside" the coil winding, so the core's magnetic domains are all polarized in the same direction. See second picture of coil field orientation.

Let's now look at myth number 5.

This simplistic depiction of a magnet leads us to believe that there is no field (or that there is a "Bloch wall") right in the middle where the color changes from red to blue. It also makes us believe that there are two polarities of magnetism. This is simply incorrect. Magnets really should be illustrated with one solid color and a single arrow from one end to the other (See attachments and link to Hyperphysics). Why? Because this is actually how they work.

There is no discontinuity of field in the center of a magnet, or solenoid for that matter. A simple test if you have a Hall probe is to take two cylindrical magnets and stack them together. Insert the Hall probe between the two magnets right in the center and measure the field strength. Is it zero? Is it as strong if not stronger than what you measure at either end of the magnet?

I highly recommend this Hyperphysics page be studied until clearly understood.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2014, 06:08:52 PM »
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Offline TechStuf

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2014, 10:08:39 PM »
You couldn't have started this topic yourself, Poynt99?

Just a head's up...

The archaic field model you have displayed fails even a 5th grade level examination.  One has only to bring two N poles and two S poles into close proximity to dispel the notion of quanta flow in one direction.  We are to believe, with as yet ZERO plausible explanation anywhere to be offered from the "halls of science" that two N poles brought to close proximity would not exhibit greater opposing force than two S poles brought to the same opposing positions?  What with all those "virtual photons" being ejected at relativistic speeds from only one end of a magnet, one should think that some appreciable differences could be observed!

Yet, what do we find upon close examination with simple tests?  Such a curious incongruity should have been properly explained long ago, one would imagine.  Yet, I have seen no published data that sufficiently accounts for such disrepancy. 

Try it yourself, bring two S poles into contact with one another.  Once contact is made and opposition force is retained, the doorway to the old thinking is slammed shut.  How does one compare the data obtained with the results one finds from flipping the magnets and doing the same with the N poles?

Even simply levitating two ring magnets on a pencil N to N and S to S disproves the old field model.

I have done tests on numerous occasions and find the old field model to be incorrect for various reasons.


TS




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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2014, 10:31:31 PM »
TS:

That's called leading yourself down a garden path.  Your posting is hard to decipher but you seem to be implying that there will be a difference in force between a N-N opposition as compared to a S-S opposition.  That's not true.

Who said anything about "virtual photons being ejected at relativistic speeds?"  Who said anything about a "quanta flow in one direction?"  There is no flow of anything!  It's just more garden-pathing on your part.

You can see how problematic it can be for an experimenter to "half learn" something and then tack on the crazy myths and beliefs that you see on the forums.

You have it set in your mind that "the field model is incorrect."  Then with this belief fixated in your mind, you do some experiments to "confirm" what you want to believe.  Hence the name of this thread, "Magnet Myths and Misconceptions."

Remember, there is no such thing as "North" and "South" so your discussion about differences between the two is moot.  Those are just artificial constructs that we have created to make it easier to talk about magnetic fields in practical applications.

The solution for you is to keep climbing up the learning curve and Poynt is a great communicator and teacher.  To do that effectively you have to get rid of that "garden pathing" crutch that is hampering you.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2014, 10:31:31 PM »
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Offline TechStuf

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2014, 10:45:22 PM »
Ah, MH and right on cue.  And as predictably neophytic as ever.


And so it begins....


I'll leave you to it then.


 :D


P.S.  If you guys can muster up even half the excitement as the TA vortex extravaganza, then I and my popcorn supply will hold out nicely.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2014, 10:57:33 PM »
Sorry there TS but I am sensing that you are backing out.

Who says mass produced magnets have perfect symmetry in their polarization when they are manufactured?  Does the magnet manufacturer actually go to all of the trouble and expense to do that?  What about all of the experimentation done on the forums with magnets?  For example, one end of a magnet wrapped in a coil that pulses?  Can't external disturbances like that knock some of the magnetic domains in different directions if the disturbances are strong enough?

There is your explanation for your asymmetry when you compare N-N opposition vs. S-S opposition.  Ah, but I am assuming that never occurred to you.  I have never seen that posted anywhere.  Likewise, for all these years you have probably looked at "North" and "South" as separate and distinct entities, when in fact they don't even exist.

Thought experiment:  You walk into a large empty room and there is a single vertical wire in the center of the room going from the floor to the ceiling.  There is one amp of current flowing through the wire.  You have your trusty compass in your hand.  Where is the "North" pole in this setup?  Where is the "South" pole in this setup?

That's an example of you being a neophyte.  So my advice to you is to listen to what Poynt has to say and do some follow-up research on your own.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2014, 10:57:33 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2014, 12:34:21 AM »
You couldn't have started this topic yourself, Poynt99?
I did indeed ask Stefan to create this topic for me, well for everyone actually.  ;)

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2014, 01:56:18 AM »
I did indeed ask Stefan to create this topic for me, well for everyone actually.  ;)

Darren:

Great topic and, I have a question.  About 8 years ago, for reasons unknown to me, I decided to superglue two neo mag disks together with their opposing poles facing each other.  (I can't recall if it was NN or SS, or if I even checked)  These were very strong magnets and resisted my attempts force them to do this.  I finally put the glue on the surfaces and worked them together and placed them into a vice until the glue cured.  The following day, I checked out the "new" magnet I created and was shocked to learn that all I had was a thicker neo with a north and south pole.  Nothing else was different about it at all.  I don't really remember what I was hoping to see but, this was not it.  I was probably trying to make a magnet with 2 poles that were the same. To make matters worse, a few days later I dropped it on the floor and the disks separated.  Each disk had a normal north and south pole.  I just assumed that when glued together over night, somehow the poles realigned or something.  But this did not seem to be the case.

I have always wondered why this was over the years so, I just thought I might ask over here.  If I did not explain what I did clear enough, let me know and I will try again.

Thanks,

Bill

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2014, 01:56:18 AM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2014, 03:15:39 AM »
Bill,

My first question would be, when the magnets separated are you quite sure both were at their original orientation of N to S? Or did one flip polarities?

I've glued two of those radio shack flexible magnets (about 1/8" thick) back to back and eventually, one had a magnetic "bubble" (a round zone of opposite polarity to the rest of the magnet) in it when I separated them later.

I have worked with magnetizing guitar pickup magnets (Alnico) and also slightly demagnetizing them by bringing a neodymium close to them. If you are not careful and get too close, the alnico magnet will suddenly flip poles and be fully magnetized in the opposite direction.

Offline Newton II

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2014, 04:06:47 AM »
What about origin of magnetic field?

An idle electron produces only electric field but when it starts moving it produces magnetic field.  What makes a moving electron to produce magnetic field? Does a moving electron produce both elctric field and magnetic field or only magnetic field?

A permanent magnet creates magnetic field around it for infinite time without losing energy of its electrons. Does it mean that magnetic field is created out of nothing?  Does a moving electron dig out energy from vaccuum (ether) to create magnetic field around it?

Why should a moving electron produce magnetic field?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2014, 04:06:47 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2014, 04:34:12 AM »
Bill,

My first question would be, when the magnets separated are you quite sure both were at their original orientation of N to S? Or did one flip polarities?

I've glued two of those radio shack flexible magnets (about 1/8" thick) back to back and eventually, one had a magnetic "bubble" (a round zone of opposite polarity to the rest of the magnet) in it when I separated them later.

I have worked with magnetizing guitar pickup magnets (Alnico) and also slightly demagnetizing them by bringing a neodymium close to them. If you are not careful and get too close, the alnico magnet will suddenly flip poles and be fully magnetized in the opposite direction.

Good question.  I have no idea as I never thought to mark them n/s either before, or after my little experiment.  When I said that they had their "normal" N/S poles once they came apart, it is easily possible that one of them switched polarity.  I have tons of neos around here now, I could try it once again and, this time, keep track of the poles.  It would be interesting to see if that is what happened.

Thanks,

Bill

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2014, 05:07:06 AM »
Poynt99, MH.... Bravo!

Let me put in a couple of cents worth here as well.

Magnetic field lines have no real existence. They are like contour lines on a terrain topographical map, or isobars on a weather map. That is, they are mathematical fictions that we use to focus upon details of the underlying phenomenon: elevation in the case of the topo map, pressure and wind with isobars, and the _direction and strength of the field gradient_ for magnetism and electrism. (I just made that word up to denote the electric field phenomenon.)

The concept of the "field line" has a rigorous mathematical description that permits us to talk coherently about features of the underlying phenomenon. Calling that underlying phenomenon a "field" simply describes the fact that there is a region in space where test particles tend to move in certain ways. The magnetic field lines are a map of this tendency of probe particles to move and are a rigorous mathematical statement of how they move, that can be used in calculations. And since we can't explain these motions without the concept of force, we can talk about, define, calculate and use the force that is moving these test particles, using the concept of "lines of force" or "field lines".

You can even use a primitive analog indicator to approximate the results of these calculations: mix some iron filings in glycerine to make a ferrofluid, or sprinkle some on a piece of paper over a magnet. Or use the same system in a solid state: the green magnet-field-viewing film.

Just as there are no isobars, but there is a wind... just as there are no contour lines, but there are mountains... there are no field lines in reality, even though the "field" itself exists.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2014, 05:27:28 AM »
TK:

Yes indeed that's a great point about the myth of "field lines."  Many times I have read postings making references to "breaking field lines" where the poster was talking about literal magnetic field lines.  There is even a "paper" that is floating out there that is all written around the concept of breaking literal "field lines."

Another myth that should bite the dust!  <thump> <thump> <thump>

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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