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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 529203 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #960 on: January 14, 2015, 01:46:08 AM »
The ram pump is just a form of transformer.  Large amounts of low-pressure water can be converted into smaller amounts of high-pressure water.  Big deal.

It's a phenomenon observed on the forums all the time.  Simple ordinary things are believed to be over unity devices by ignorant or misinformed people.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #961 on: January 14, 2015, 01:47:45 AM »
Quote
Wow you are now the most silly person on ou.com! I am totally gob smacked at your stupidity!

Look in the mirror.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #962 on: January 14, 2015, 02:02:21 AM »
The server is totally flaky, I am assuming that other people are experiencing the blackouts.  I have lost a handful of postings because I forget to put them in my copy/paste buffer before clicking the button.

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #963 on: January 14, 2015, 02:06:38 AM »
@EMJ
A few thoughts concerning the DWFTTW and the SMOT concepts.
In both cases the critics stuck in their own personal flavor of mediocrity have said something cannot work because of certain laws however these laws were always applied in there most basic sense to justify an opinion. That is the DWFTTW concept cannot work because the force on an object from the wind decreases as the velocity of the object increases thus if the object reaches the same speed as the wind there can be no applied force. It is all common sense that it cannot go faster than the wind and must be a perpetual mobile in violation of natural law. Now did you see what just happened here?, they applied the most basic form of the law to a rather complex concept they did not understand to justify their opinion.

The SMOT is really no different because according to the critics it is just like a metal spring and we all know how springs act don't we?. Why it is all common sense and the same laws which apply to a simple spring must also apply to the SMOT and if it could work then it must also be a perpetual mobile in violation of natural law. Again we have a very strange scenario whereby the critics have applied the most basic form of the law to a complex system they may not fully understand.

What is not always apparent, the good part, is that if we actually listen to the critics sometimes their misguided thoughts to justify their own opinion can offer real insight. For instance they believe the SMOT is just like a simple spring and nothing more or it may magically morph into a mythical perpetual mobile. However the inverse to their thoughts is that we want a system which can never act like a spring. You see they have just given us an answer to the single biggest problem we may encounter and under no circumstances can the system act like a simple spring or it cannot work.

Which raises the question how do we build a magnetic system which can never act like a simple spring?. Why if it were me I would look for non-linear relationships such as a spring which becomes weaker with one polarity (incoming magnet) and stronger with another polarity (outgoing magnet). Or a material which changes it's magnetic properties but only under certain specific conditions which we might control or a material which causes the field to move abruptly from one area to the next under certain conditions. I mean the critics have opened up endless possibilities due to their own indifference to the problem which they obviously have no idea how to solve... thanks critics.
It's really quite simple and in many cases we should simply do the opposite of what they are telling us.

AC

Offline NoBull

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #964 on: January 14, 2015, 02:14:36 AM »
And would be irreversible without remagnetizing the magnet,
Yes

and would require an _input_ of energy to heat the magnet.
In the case of using the heat to free the domains - yes.  Let's neglect the magnetocaloric effect and heat recovery for now*
...but in case of fragmenting the magnet - no.

So you have a situation where energy is input to magnetize the PM, then energy is input to heat it past the Curie point to demagnetize it....  does this sound like an efficient process to you? 
No.
This example was not to illustrate the efficiency of heating up the magnet to release its magnetic energy.
...but rather to illustrate that the forces of chaos will release it if given a chance to act.

Don't forget that the induced voltage is proportional to the time rate of change of the change in magnetization.
...but in an ideal coil the induced current does not depend on this rate of change and neither does the induced electric energy.
Indeed, the induced voltage does depend on the rate of change of flux, but that is useful only for non-shorted coils where this voltage is accessible for measurement.

So to get anything much out of the solenoid you have to have all your domains flipping within a short period of time.
Well, it would be more precise to write that the domains would have to release their energy faster than the resistance would dissipate it away.  In a superconducting coil that time would be infinite and in a resistive coil that time would have to shorter that a quarter of the L/R time constant.

In the situation you describe I doubt if you could reverse the orientation of the two magnets, or half-magnets, by pulsing the external solenoid.
I assume that you are referring to the macro mechanical system that I posted.
Well we would need an experiment to confirm that.

As you said, once the magnet-halves have flipped so they are in mutual attraction, very little of their fields "leak" out, so what will the pulsed solenoid's field be acting upon?
I would think that unless multiple pairs of magnets formed a circle (like a toroid) then there would be still some fringing fields in one pair of magnets for an energized coil to grab onto.  Another arguments for this possibility is that ferrimagnetic materials also are composed of many antiparallel magnetic dipoles yet an external H field is able to grab them and rotate them somehow.  Yes, these domains are much smaller than those two macro magnets, but why should that matter?

So you have to put energy in to "c o c k" the system, then when you release whatever is holding it in the cocked state, the solenoid recovers the energy that you put in in the first place.
Yes, the "cocked" magnet pair could be released effortlessly by e.g. pulling a locking pin ;)

This may be relatively efficient except for the inevitable electrical losses, just as the ordinary "cogging" of a rotor magnet passing a core is relatively energy-neutral except for eddy current losses and bearing wobble, etc.
Yes the electrical losses would be inversely proportional to the speed of the process.
I think 80% efficiency would be a good result.

It also has nothing to do with storing and recovering energy by magnetizing and demagnetizing permanent magnets!
It does a little, but I admit the process is much closer to magnetizing and demagnetizing soft ferrimagnetic materials.
Note that this demagnetization occurs spontaneously in soft ferrites. Here is what Sparks thinks about it:

I see the destruction of a magnetic field as an input in energy from whatever is driving the entropy of the Universe. 


Your comparison of this process to the alignment and de-alignment of domains is a real stretch, I think.
Why?  Don't the magnetization directions of these little domains change similarly to a bunch of pivoting magnets?
The biggest difference seems to be the scale of these magnetic dipoles.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* The Carnot cycle is not my favorite subject for a conversation.

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #965 on: January 14, 2015, 02:14:44 AM »
@MH
Quote
The server is totally flaky, I am assuming that other people are experiencing
the blackouts.  I have lost a handful of postings because I forget to put them
in my copy/paste buffer before clicking the button.
I feel your pain-- cannot find server Doh..
AC

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #966 on: January 14, 2015, 02:32:24 AM »
Go ahead, EMJunkie. Please go to work and make a self-looping SMOT! I don't think you should post anything else until you get one working, running by itself. After all, your posted .pdf says "can this be looped? Yes!" and you claim that the video shows a "working" SMOT! So go to it! Put those wonderful critical thinking and building skills to work and PROVE ME WRONG. Make a self-looped SMOT! Simple, right? I laugh at you!
You cannot do it!

TinselKoala - Just ONE Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bssBAb6EzM4

Robert is just one of many genuine real devices!

What a FOOL You have proven yourself to be!

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #967 on: January 14, 2015, 02:34:53 AM »
Look in the mirror.

MileHigh - You are just as stupid! Oil Company Troll!

P.S: Your previous comment distorts your previous debated topics!

Ram Pump runs all by itself, NO BATTERY REQUIRED!!!!

Oil Company Troll! or Trolls, all three of you! You know what I mean by this too!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #968 on: January 14, 2015, 02:35:10 AM »
TinselKoala - Just ONE Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bssBAb6EzM4

Robert is just one of many genuine real devices!

What a FOOL You have proven yourself to be!

That is so hilarious because I was the very first person to bust that clip!

You must put on your critical thinking skills cap EMJ.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #969 on: January 14, 2015, 02:36:59 AM »
MileHigh - You are just as stupid! Oil Company Troll!

P.S: Your previous comment distorts your previous debated topics!

Ram Pump runs all by itself, NO BATTERY REQUIRED!!!!

Oil Company Troll! or Trolls, all three of you! You know what I mean by this too!

That's all fine and dandy until the nutcase guns you down in the street like a dog.  Like it happened in France just a few days ago.

Shame on you.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #970 on: January 14, 2015, 02:51:01 AM »
I scrolled though the comments and there I was!   Has it already been four years?

Read it and weep Chris.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #971 on: January 14, 2015, 02:51:40 AM »
@AC and ALL - DWFTTW

DWFTTW URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHsXcHoJu-A

For some 300 years, a device has been built and no dispute about weather it works has been presented!

It works, Simple, it works!, no dispute, its used everyday by many thousands and thousands of people.

The Hydraulic Ram Pump

This pump is an Un-Stable System - Earnshaw's Theorem permits this due to the Inverse Square Law of Gravity! One could call this a Gravitic Oscillator!

The Hydraulic Ram Pump URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlkuZjd2Frc

and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqDkd7KdPg

I wasn't going to reply to this post and see if people were going to take it up! This is a very relevant and essential topic!

To say SMOT's (Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy) don't work is, in my opinion foolish.

It works if the right conditions are met!

SMOT URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5mYm5nO5Fw&index=2&list=PL18F92E8FE71E9FBA

Howard Johnson also built a similar thing. It also worked!

Kind Regards

  Chris
The SMOT demonstration you linked, like all other SMOTs and like every one of Howard Johnson's devices fails to complete even a single circuit.  Is that something you didn't notice?

Offline Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #972 on: January 14, 2015, 02:54:07 AM »
@MHI feel your pain-- cannot find server Doh..
AC

On firefox, if you click post and it comes up try again, just click your back button, and you have your post back.

Wait a few minutes and stir occasionally...no, wait, thats my mac and cheese directions...*puts box outta sight*.

If nothing else werks, just open up word and construct your posts there.

Regards...


Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #973 on: January 14, 2015, 02:54:44 AM »
TinselKoala - Youre a FOOL! Blind and Intellectually Handicaped! Oil Company Troll!
You do realize that it is your character that you assail when you assert false disparaging claims against others don't you?  Why do you keep doing this to yourself?

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #974 on: January 14, 2015, 03:04:17 AM »
@EMJ
A few thoughts concerning the DWFTTW and the SMOT concepts.
Are you claiming that a SMOT has ever worked?  If you are then kindly point to one that has or does.  Are you claiming that a SMOT could work?  If you are then kindly point to some source of reliable evidence that supports that idea.
Quote

In both cases the critics stuck in their own personal flavor of mediocrity have said something cannot work because of certain laws however these laws were always applied in there most basic sense to justify an opinion. That is the DWFTTW concept cannot work because the force on an object from the wind decreases as the velocity of the object increases thus if the object reaches the same speed as the wind there can be no applied force. It is all common sense that it cannot go faster than the wind and must be a perpetual mobile in violation of natural law. Now did you see what just happened here?, they applied the most basic form of the law to a rather complex concept they did not understand to justify their opinion.
So, let's see:  Someone overgeneralizes a principle and applies it where it doesn't belong.  Is that it?  Now, what can we observe about what you are doing by generalizing an entire class of people?
Quote

The SMOT is really no different because according to the critics it is just like a metal spring and we all know how springs act don't we?. Why it is all common sense and the same laws which apply to a simple spring must also apply to the SMOT and if it could work then it must also be a perpetual mobile in violation of natural law. Again we have a very strange scenario whereby the critics have applied the most basic form of the law to a complex system they may not fully understand.
Well, let me help you out with finding a few differences here: 

SME's who have articulated any hypothesis on which a SMOT could work that has passed peer review:  My count is zero.  What's yours?  The DWFTTW had many SMEs who validated the theory prior to actual runs. 

Number of SMOTs attempted:  Many.  Number of SMOTs that have ever worked:  My count is again zero.  What's yours?  The DWFTTW land yachts that have been built and worked:  At least several.
Quote

What is not always apparent, the good part, is that if we actually listen to the critics sometimes their misguided thoughts to justify their own opinion can offer real insight. For instance they believe the SMOT is just like a simple spring and nothing more or it may magically morph into a mythical perpetual mobile. However the inverse to their thoughts is that we want a system which can never act like a spring. You see they have just given us an answer to the single biggest problem we may encounter and under no circumstances can the system act like a simple spring or it cannot work.

Which raises the question how do we build a magnetic system which can never act like a simple spring?. Why if it were me I would look for non-linear relationships such as a spring which becomes weaker with one polarity (incoming magnet) and stronger with another polarity (outgoing magnet). Or a material which changes it's magnetic properties but only under certain specific conditions which we might control or a material which causes the field to move abruptly from one area to the next under certain conditions. I mean the critics have opened up endless possibilities due to their own indifference to the problem which they obviously have no idea how to solve... thanks critics.
It's really quite simple and in many cases we should simply do the opposite of what they are telling us.

AC
So do you have a hypothesis on which you believe a SMOT can work?  Who has ever attempted to implement your hypothesis?  Again:  Reliable data carries the day.