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Author Topic: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions  (Read 626124 times)

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #870 on: January 12, 2015, 11:25:02 PM »
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I have many times asked you questions to get you to clarify what you have attempted to say.  Where I have objected is where you have declared things that are not true.  A pertinent example is your repeated misapplication of magnetic lines of force in diagrams.


What i have been trying to do is show you the independant value of each field,insted of the unified field as depicted by most magnetic field diagrams. Quote Verpies- just like attraction force is related to magnetic flux density gradient.
So my figure 8 is showing the mapped flux density of each individual pole.

Now.as far as my diagram depicting a pump,pipes and gages.
You(as usual) were the first to comment.
Quote: post 841- Were the pressure actually zero at the middle of the upper pipe segment, there would not be any impetus for water to continue to flow past that point.

Other that this being incorrect,you have already made a statement in regards to how the system would opperate-->this was post 841.
Then in post -849 Quote: Negative differential pressure is common.  Negative gauge pressure which is negative differential pressure relative to the local atmosphere is common.  Negative absolute pressure requires that a volume contain less than zero matter.  There is no such known condition.

Where was absolute pressure show or mentioned in my diagram and post?.

Post 851 Quote: Tinman where did you say qualify pressure as gage or differential?  It is up to you to say what you mean.  I can go out and buy pressure sensors that are any of the three:  differential, gage, or absolute.

If i have have given no indication as to wether it is gage or differential pressure,then how did you make your decisions that your reply 841 was based around when you didnt know the value of the pressures?.
post 857 Quote:-It is not up to me to second guess you.  It is up to you to specify your proposed set-up.
But you have already taken a guess,as you posted what you think should be the case in post 841.

MH then says this-Quote: I think you need to check the attitude there Tinman.
Im guessing this is based around my three word's-oh-sorry Mark.
AC posted what i thought to ba a legitimate proposal-Quote: However if we were to add a slight restriction or boundary condition at the middle where the pressure gauge is located then everything works perfectly which is of course applied mechanics 101. In a closed system as velocity increases the pressure decreases and the energy is then not in the pressure but the momentum ie. mass velocity of the fluid.

Your reply Mark was to laugh in the face of another fellow experimentor Quote: LOL, place a differential pressure gauge across your restriction and tell me which side of the restriction it indicates has the higher pressure.
No word from MH saying that you need a attitude check.

We see this all to often,the big guns thinking that they are better than the rest of us,and what they do or say to others they concider below them is all ok from the other big guns,and nothing is said about any attitude check. There are of course exceptions amoungst those that have great knowledge in EE.

So my biggest beef was you making a formal conclusion about how and what my depicted diagram would actually result in before you knew what the pressure gauges were telling you,and then continue on later down the track to say that it is not you that needs second guess what my diagram is showing-after you have already told me how it was incorrect and wouldnt work the way i showed it.

The diagrem is not in any sort of scale MH,but it will do as i depicted.
@ Mark
If you look at the diagram,you can clearly work out what the gages are reading,which is gage pressure. Differential pressure is meassured between two individual sealed medium's-EG,you may have a hydrolic ram where you have a gauge on either side of the piston in the ram-but the medium must be sepperated,and as you can see in my diagram,the medium is not sepperated.

Hope that clears that up.

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #871 on: January 12, 2015, 11:53:21 PM »
MileHigh - There are two types of people in this world, talkers and doers!


Talkers can not come to any conclusions other than what they read!

Doers have Intuition, common-sense and a Native Intelligence. My experiments have led me to believe what I believe. No matter how much "Talk" you "Talk", simply, you have not provided a single bit of evidence to the contrary!

What sad and incomplete evidence you have come up with, I have proved, References, Video, supporting Documentation, that has shown you to be incorrect.

You asked for a debate, you failed to support your debate! Period!

Others here have shown enough to prove there is something going on at the Equator, their work also supports my experiments!

MileHigh, You have your opinion, I have mine, You think I am wrong, I think youre wrong.

I wonder if you can agree, to disagree?

1: In magnetism, a domain wall is an interface separating magnetic domains.
2: A magnetic domain is a region within a magnetic material which has uniform magnetization.
3: A Bloch wall is a narrow transition region at the boundary between magnetic domains, over which the magnetization changes from its value in one domain to that in the next, named after the physicist Felix Bloch.

I believe there is a polarisation difference between North and South. How about you be an adult and stop criticizing others for their Intuition and grow up!

Your Actions here have brought about definitions that fit with your Dogma! Don't like being defined, then here's an idea, live and let live! Be an Adult!

If you're afraid of sailing off the edge of the Earth because of the Flat Earth Theory? Then Don't go Sailing!


MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #872 on: January 13, 2015, 12:15:45 AM »
That's just a lot of hot air Chris.  I spent 10 years of my life in school and at work working on a bench.  I once made an estimate that I have about 4500 hours of experience on a bench.  It's not a huge amount of time nor is it a small amount of time.  I asked you if you would do experiments like measuring the amount of energy stored in the core of a transformer because I have done it myself.

You are just deluding yourself.  The "doers" crap falls flat.  If you are deluded and "doing" then all you end up doing is deluding yourself even more.

You were so technically out of it that you didn't even understand the architecture of a bar magnet and you were not capable of visualizing what is going on in a bar magnet.  Perhaps after this discussion on this thread you can, but clearly before the thread started discussing your issues you couldn't.

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I believe there is a polarisation difference between North and South.

North and south don't even exist, they are just a naming convention.  You entered this thread believing that they existed and that there was a Bloch wall between the "north half" and the "south half" of a magnet.  Are you any wiser now I wonder or are you just going to continue bluffing your way through?

The issues are with you, and for you to contemplate.  If you are true to yourself you will take your nonsensical YouTube clips down.  You want an example of how not to behave?   Take a look at Daniel Nunez and his bird's nest "Rodin" coils.  The guy is so clueless that he barely even knows what he is doing on a bench and he can't make measurements at all.  I know this from watching lots of his clips.  It's simply painful watching and listening to him.  Yet he is considered to be a luminary in the free energy cottage industry.  You absolutely do not want to be like Daniel Nunez.  It up to you if you want to continue educating yourself or if you are just going to continue bluffing your audience and bluffing yourself.

EMJunkie

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #873 on: January 13, 2015, 12:28:49 AM »
That's just a lot of hot air Chris.

Which is no different to your Piffle Milehigh.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #874 on: January 13, 2015, 12:39:46 AM »
 

What i have been trying to do is show you the independant value of each field,insted of the unified field as depicted by most magnetic field diagrams. Quote Verpies- just like attraction force is related to magnetic flux density gradient.
So my figure 8 is showing the mapped flux density of each individual pole.
So finally we get to an agreement:  You have been mapping flux density with representations the rest of the world uses to map flux.  Do you now withdraw your objections to the truth of the representations of flux as normally used?
Quote

Now.as far as my diagram depicting a pump,pipes and gages.
You(as usual) were the first to comment.
Quote: post 841- Were the pressure actually zero at the middle of the upper pipe segment, there would not be any impetus for water to continue to flow past that point.

Other that this being incorrect,you have already made a statement in regards to how the system would opperate-->this was post 841.
Then in post -849 Quote: Negative differential pressure is common.  Negative gauge pressure which is negative differential pressure relative to the local atmosphere is common.  Negative absolute pressure requires that a volume contain less than zero matter.  There is no such known condition.

Where was absolute pressure show or mentioned in my diagram and post?.

Post 851 Quote: Tinman where did you say qualify pressure as gage or differential?  It is up to you to say what you mean.  I can go out and buy pressure sensors that are any of the three:  differential, gage, or absolute.

If i have have given no indication as to wether it is gage or differential pressure,then how did you make your decisions that your reply 841 was based around when you didnt know the value of the pressures?.
post 857 Quote:-It is not up to me to second guess you.  It is up to you to specify your proposed set-up.
But you have already taken a guess,as you posted what you think should be the case in post 841.

MH then says this-Quote: I think you need to check the attitude there Tinman.
Im guessing this is based around my three word's-oh-sorry Mark.
AC posted what i thought to ba a legitimate proposal-Quote: However if we were to add a slight restriction or boundary condition at the middle where the pressure gauge is located then everything works perfectly which is of course applied mechanics 101. In a closed system as velocity increases the pressure decreases and the energy is then not in the pressure but the momentum ie. mass velocity of the fluid.

Your reply Mark was to laugh in the face of another fellow experimentor Quote: LOL, place a differential pressure gauge across your restriction and tell me which side of the restriction it indicates has the higher pressure.
No word from MH saying that you need a attitude check.
Fair or not, the statement that AC offered was to me so preposterous that I think it deserved the LOL.  I think that if you go back through even just this thread you will find that I have been very patient with you.  I believe that I have focused on the technical issues.  MH speaks for himself.  He is far more concerned with who calls who names than I am.  There are on these threads some posters who behave very poorly, and generally I simply don't bother with them.
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We see this all to often,the big guns thinking that they are better than the rest of us,and what they do or say to others they concider below them is all ok from the other big guns,and nothing is said about any attitude check. There are of course exceptions amoungst those that have great knowledge in EE.
That is something that I put effort into avoiding.  I try to help people who want to try things out, or understand science better.  I try to stay above the fray of name calling and feces flinging.  In dealing with you, a person I hold in respect, I take particular effort, whether that shows or not.
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So my biggest beef was you making a formal conclusion about how and what my depicted diagram would actually result in before you knew what the pressure gauges were telling you,and then continue on later down the track to say that it is not you that needs second guess what my diagram is showing-after you have already told me how it was incorrect and wouldnt work the way i showed it.
Fair enough. 
Quote

The diagrem is not in any sort of scale MH,but it will do as i depicted.
@ Mark
If you look at the diagram,you can clearly work out what the gages are reading,which is gage pressure. Differential pressure is meassured between two individual sealed medium's-EG,you may have a hydrolic ram where you have a gauge on either side of the piston in the ram-but the medium must be sepperated,and as you can see in my diagram,the medium is not sepperated.

Hope that clears that up.

MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #875 on: January 13, 2015, 12:41:19 AM »
Chris:

Well, I shot down your "doers" argument and you are the one that is on the flat Earth.

The majority of your references did NOT support your assertions and I call it "Orwellian madness" when you state that they do.  Here you are trying to "teach" on your YouTube channel and it's revealed that you don't know what you are talking about.  I don't go onto a sewing forum and talk a bunch of BS about sewing because I barely know anything about sewing!!!  You should follow suit.  Don't become another Daniel Nunez.

MileHigh

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #876 on: January 13, 2015, 12:59:18 AM »
That's just


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North and south don't even exist, they are just a naming convention.  You entered this thread believing that they existed and that there was a Bloch wall between the "north half" and the "south half" of a magnet.  Are you any wiser now I wonder or are you just going to continue bluffing your way through?

In all fairness MH,to use the terms north and south is just as correct as useing conventional current flow-even though it is the opposite to true current flow. Thing is,no one can tell us what the arrows show on the field lines that dont exist in everyday pictures of the magnetic field around a magnet-but every one is happy to except them. Some say the arrows drawn on the field lines are suppose to represent flow direction-->flow direction of what? Some say they represent the direction of force--> a magnetic field has no set direction of force.

It seems all well and good for the(so called) !know all! scientist to place lines around a magnet to represent the magnetic field,but when i draw my lines that sepperate the TWO different fields around a magnet ,and show where each individual field is strongest,every one of the guru's say thats crap. Well,to bad,my mapping of the two different fields dose form a figure 8 pattern relative to the magnetic field strength of each individual field-north and south.

Looking at the conventional magnetic field depiction below,it is clear that it is wrong. This crap about some flow of some thing that no one knows what the hell it is,is wrong. Something changes mid point in the field,and what ever that change is,it is opposite to that of the opposite side. So the arrows showing this continual unidirectional flow of some yet to be discovered matter-->are wrong. There are NO definitive explinations as to how or why a magnetic field dose what it dose-->as usual,there are only theories,and theories are only best guesses. The very same stands true for gravity--two masses atract each other ::). That's good,and is correct,but why?.  Us knowing all about magnetic fields because a CRT screen work's,or im on my computor because we know all about magnetic field's,is just pure rubbish. We know that 1 mass is attracted to another due to gravitational forces as well,and heavy shit stays on the ground because of this,but do we know how or why gravity dose what it dose-->no,but we still have stuff that works because of it.

So ,until some one can show(with actual proof) how and why a magnetic field dose what it dose,and what it actually is,then everyone has the right to put forth there argument,and no one has the right to say there wrong. Scientist make up shit all the time,only to find later that they got it all wrong-but it sticks anyway(conventional current flow).

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #877 on: January 13, 2015, 01:04:17 AM »
MileHigh - There are two types of people in this world, talkers and doers!


Talkers can not come to any conclusions other than what they read!

Doers have Intuition, common-sense and a Native Intelligence. My experiments have led me to believe what I believe. No matter how much "Talk" you "Talk", simply, you have not provided a single bit of evidence to the contrary!
"Doing" without understanding may provide hours of entertainment but not enlightenment.  When one performs an experiment and arrives at conclusions that are contrary to thousands, even millions of prior experiments have confirmed, the "doer" has a huge amount of evidence to overcome.  When a "doer" refuses to even listen to explanations of the understanding that those prior experiments have led to, then the "doer" is the proverbial ostrich with its head stuck firmly in the ground.  Why should anyone regard the "doer's" experiments superior to the experiments of the past?
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What sad and incomplete evidence you have come up with, I have proved, References, Video, supporting Documentation, that has shown you to be incorrect.
If you are still denying the reality that is indisputably in front of you then you are still doing a put on or worse.
Quote

You asked for a debate, you failed to support your debate! Period!

Others here have shown enough to prove there is something going on at the Equator, their work also supports my experiments!
No, you have been refuted at each turn, even by your own references.  All experimenters agree that when the Hall effect sensor is placed parallel to the dipole that the flux density smoothly changes from a maximum in one direction at one pole to an opposing maximum in the other direction at the opposite pole.  There is no boundary condition at the dipole midpoint.  There si therefore no evidence of a Bloch wall at the dipole midpoint.  There is no evidence of flux curling inward towards the dipole at the dipole midpoint.  Quite the opposite, the evidence all points to the conventional view that flux is most parallel to the dipole axis at the dipole midpoint.
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MileHigh, You have your opinion, I have mine, You think I am wrong, I think youre wrong.

I wonder if you can agree, to disagree?
With a mountain of evidence gained over 200 years running against you, you are simply and irrefutably in the wrong.
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1: In magnetism, a domain wall is an interface separating magnetic domains.
Yes
Quote
2: A magnetic domain is a region within a magnetic material which has uniform magnetization.
Yes
Quote
3: A Bloch wall is a narrow transition region at the boundary between magnetic domains, over which the magnetization changes from its value in one domain to that in the next, named after the physicist Felix Bloch.
Yes, and more usually between domains that are oriented at 90, 180, or 270 degrees to each other.
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I believe there is a polarisation difference between North and South. How about you be an adult and stop criticizing others for their Intuition and grow up!
What is that supposed to mean?  If we cut a magnet in half we just end up with a weaker magnet.  If we slice a magnet into three, we just end up with three weaker magnets.  We do not end up with a south monopole, a regular magnet, and a north monopole.
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Your Actions here have brought about definitions that fit with your Dogma! Don't like being defined, then here's an idea, live and let live! Be an Adult!
It is you who refuse to acknowledge the reality that you call dogma while hanging onto ideas that your own references refute.
Quote

If you're afraid of sailing off the edge of the Earth because of the Flat Earth Theory? Then Don't go Sailing!
But it is you who keep repeating things that goes against your own evidence.

MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #878 on: January 13, 2015, 01:17:32 AM »
Tinman:

Quote
n all fairness MH,to use the terms north and south is just as correct as useing conventional current flow-even though it is the opposite to true current flow. Thing is,no one can tell us what the arrows show on the field lines that dont exist in everyday pictures of the magnetic field around a magnet-but every one is happy to except them. Some say the arrows drawn on the field lines are suppose to represent flow direction-->flow direction of what? Some say they represent the direction of force--> a magnetic field has no set direction of force.

The analogy for north and south breaks down.  For example, when Mark showed two bar magnets with a small gap between them, you talked about the north and south fields in that gap.  The analogy breaks down, and sticking to the analogy was confusing you.  TK or Itsu followed the magnetic field from the north pole all the way to the south pole rotating the Hall sensor appropriately so it always showed the same "polarity" (really flux direction) and you objected to that.  You said the north can't go all the way to the south.  That's where the analogy broke down again again.  They were just following the direction of the flux, no north, no south, just the direction of the flux.  So the real thing to do is understand the convention for north and south and also understand magnetic flux and use the right terms appropriate to the situation.  Where is the "north" inside a toroid?  There is none, so you start out by talking about the flux inside a toroid and completely ignore the concepts of "north" and "south."  Talking about "north" and "south" in the context of a toroid would itself be confusing.

The magnetic field has direction, there is no "flow."   People see arrows and they start to think of flow.  The arrows only indicate direction.

You say "direction of what?"  If you are standing next to a hot stove, can you determine the direction of the infra-red heat if you are blindfolded?  You sure as hell can by moving around and noting the intensity of the radiation on your skin.  So the magnetic field has a definable direction at any point in space.

MileHigh

tinman

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #879 on: January 13, 2015, 01:27:00 AM »
Lets have a look at the picture below-for those that believe that there are not two different fields in a magnet.

We have two identical inductors with two long thin cores that protude into the magnetic field-at the same point either side of the center of the dipole(dipole-1.a pair of equal and oppositely charged or magnetized poles separated by a distance).The arrows on the magnetic field lines depict some sort of flow direction/or force direction of an unknown substance-yet to be discovered. Now these arrows pass through the core material in the same direction at the same point-BUT the sinewaves produced by the identical inductors are totally opposite-180 out of phase with each other. This clearly shows the arrow depiction/flow direction and force direction are not from one end of the dipole to the other. This shows us two opposite forces passing through the inductors cores. There IS two different fields around a magnet-not one,and these two fields/forces gradually cancel one another out as we get to the center of the magnets TWO pole ends-->the dipole.

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #880 on: January 13, 2015, 01:41:04 AM »
In all fairness MH,to use the terms north and south is just as correct as useing conventional current flow-even though it is the opposite to true current flow. Thing is,no one can tell us what the arrows show on the field lines that dont exist in everyday pictures of the magnetic field around a magnet-but every one is happy to except them. Some say the arrows drawn on the field lines are suppose to represent flow direction-->flow direction of what? Some say they represent the direction of force--> a magnetic field has no set direction of force.

It seems all well and good for the(so called) !know all! scientist to place lines around a magnet to represent the magnetic field,but when i draw my lines that sepperate the TWO different fields around a magnet ,and show where each individual field is strongest,every one of the guru's say thats crap.
What's crap Tinman is to conflate contours that show one thing with contours that show something else.  If you want to make diagrams using line contours of flux density that's all fine and well provided that you:

1) Identify that flux density is what you are mapping and the convention your drawings use to map it.
2) You do not attempt to represent that the same mapping represents flux.
3) You do not attempt to represent that lines ordinary magnetic contour maps that each represent a quanta of flux instead represent a quanta of flux density.
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Well,to bad,my mapping of the two different fields dose form a figure 8 pattern relative to the magnetic field strength of each individual field-north and south.

Looking at the conventional magnetic field depiction below,it is clear that it is wrong.
No it is correct.  You have interpreted that those maps mean or should represent flux density when the convention is that each line represents a quanta of flux. Since in your experiments you are often interested in how much force acts on something what you would like is a map of force on whatever it is you want to use:  a reed switch a plate another magnet etc.  Unfortunately because of the way that the flux of a magnetic field curves around, the force that you would like to know about depends not just on the magnet that you have but anything that you put near that magnet that has a permeability much greater than 1.  Consequently there is no way to generate a plot that would represent mechanical force acting on any object brought close to the magnet based on the magnet alone.  The situation may be dissatisfying or even frustrating to you, but that is a matter of nature, not man-made conventions.
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This crap about some flow of some thing that no one knows what the hell it is,is wrong.
Magnetic lines are said to "flow" as a matter of convenience because analogies have been made to fluid flows. A compass needle aligns to the direction of "flow of magnetic wind" the way that a flag aligns to the flow of wind.
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  Something changes mid point in the field,and what ever that change is,it is opposite to that of the opposite side.
There is no abrupt behavior at or near the middle of a dipole.  Look at all the experiments reported in this thread.  Whether you consider that a single magnet of say 5cm length is 500 0.1mm magnets stacked end to end, or just one magnet, the observable flux AND flux density behave as though it is one magnet where the flux curves smoothly from one pole to another.  The miracle of vector math is such that one gets the same behavior whether one stacks many thin magnets together or has one single magnet.  The lines one sees on a conventional diagram reflect the real observable flux.
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So the arrows showing this continual unidirectional flow of some yet to be discovered matter-->are wrong.
I'm sorry but the lines of flux really do fairly represent quanta of magnetic flux.  If one had the time and patience, one could take a conventional field map and derive a corresponding map of flux density.
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There are NO definitive explinations as to how or why a magnetic field dose what it dose-->as usual,there are only theories,and theories are only best guesses. The very same stands true for gravity--two masses atract each other ::). That's good,and is correct,but why?.  Us knowing all about magnetic fields because a CRT screen work's,or im on my computor because we know all about magnetic field's,is just pure rubbish. We know that 1 mass is attracted to another due to gravitational forces as well,and heavy shit stays on the ground because of this,but do we know how or why gravity dose what it dose-->no,but we still have stuff that works because of it.
Sure there is lots that we don't know.  That does not change in the least what we do know or how well we canuse what we know to make deadly accurate predictions as to what will happen when we use or manipulate things such as masses and magnets as we choose.
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So ,until some one can show(with actual proof) how and why a magnetic field dose what it dose,and what it actually is,then everyone has the right to put forth there argument,and no one has the right to say there wrong. Scientist make up shit all the time,only to find later that they got it all wrong-but it sticks anyway(conventional current flow).
If one wishes to put forth an idea, the idea stands to be criticized by what it can or cannot accurately predict.  Conventional electromagnetics predict with stunning accuracy. 

MileHigh

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #881 on: January 13, 2015, 01:51:22 AM »
Tinman:

The short answer is that it is the same flux but the flux direction is different.  It's a basic fundamental property of magnetism.   In your diagram if the flux is increasing and the direction is from top to bottom in the left coil, then it is increasing and the direction is from bottom to top in the right coil, then when one coil outputs say -4 volts, then the other coil will output +4 volts.

It's exactly the same changing flux.

MileHigh

MarkE

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #882 on: January 13, 2015, 01:56:59 AM »
Lets have a look at the picture below-for those that believe that there are not two different fields in a magnet.

We have two identical inductors with two long thin cores that protude into the magnetic field-at the same point either side of the center of the dipole(dipole-1.a pair of equal and oppositely charged or magnetized poles separated by a distance).The arrows on the magnetic field lines depict some sort of flow direction/or force direction of an unknown substance-yet to be discovered. Now these arrows pass through the core material in the same direction at the same point-BUT the sinewaves produced by the identical inductors are totally opposite-180 out of phase with each other. This clearly shows the arrow depiction/flow direction and force direction are not from one end of the dipole to the other. This shows us two opposite forces passing through the inductors cores. There IS two different fields around a magnet-not one,and these two fields/forces gradually cancel one another out as we get to the center of the magnets TWO pole ends-->the dipole.
And yet in an electromagnet formed by a single turn of wire neither North nor South can be found.

NoBull

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #883 on: January 13, 2015, 02:44:20 AM »
2) You do not attempt to represent that the same mapping represents flux.
...or magnetic flux density gradients.

ramset

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Re: Magnet Myths and Misconceptions
« Reply #884 on: January 13, 2015, 04:14:23 AM »