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Author Topic: Was Bessler for real?  (Read 134612 times)

AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2011, 12:42:54 AM »
Jim

 Why do you keep talking to me or about me? Not to mention that the idea you are proposing was suggested to me by Pese back in early 2008 but we where talking about quick silver. But I will pass on a little advice that came from Pese. If you can't find quick silver/mercury? You can use alcohol for it moves faster. Oh yes! In you color drawings you have a mechanical problem. You may have addressed it in your build in process but for others reading. You are going to need a slide to get your lever to compress.

But good luck

Alan

overtaker

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2011, 04:16:29 PM »
Quote from Cristo:

Nobody in my family nor my friends  have disowned me for claiming that I have discovered Bessler's principle at least 100 times ! but these online communities have .



Wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf......

johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2011, 04:38:46 PM »
Jim

 Why do you keep talking to me or about me? Not to mention that the idea you are proposing was suggested to me by Pese back in early 2008 but we where talking about quick silver. But I will pass on a little advice that came from Pese. If you can't find quick silver/mercury? You can use alcohol for it moves faster. Oh yes! In you color drawings you have a mechanical problem. You may have addressed it in your build in process but for others reading. You are going to need a slide to get your lever to compress.

But good luck

Alan

  Alan,
 please show the link as you are claiming you originated this idea. In essence, you are accusing me of plagiarism.
 Quicksilver is not necessary. If you knew anything of history, you would know that Bessler would have most likely used suede for his tubes. This means that water and / or oil could help maintain the seal and the conditioning of the leather.
 as for a slide, not needed. It would create unecessary restence as you know, or don't know. Merely allowing allowing a link to rotate by pins is a much better answer. and it also allows the warped board to be locked into position on one end.
 I wish at some point you would learn more than armoring. And no, I'm not building. As much as you claimed my medical problem was not a problem, I am off work because of surgery you did not think I needed. Your self importance is tiresome. Why not show something ? I would find that more credible.
 
                                                                        Jim
 
edited to add; Alan, bluestiger44 @ besslerwheel.com also discussed using mercury. But like you and Pese, he probably had no idea how it was used. And in considering engineering, something like mercury would not be able to displace it's mass over a distance as well as oil or water. By having pockets of it, it could have the strength (density) to damage the engineering. It seems the structures durability was never seriously considered.
 Could be why your refrain of Build Jim, build. You wish to say you are the man behind my ability. you have said as much before. And as I said then, I am not your employee. If I wish to talk wheel with others, not sure why it would bother you when there is no proof of your building anything. Only claims. But thanks for wishing me well on my recovery.

johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2011, 04:57:39 PM »
Quote from Cristo:

Nobody in my family nor my friends  have disowned me for claiming that I have discovered Bessler's principle at least 100 times ! but these online communities have .



Wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf,  wolf......

  overtaker,
 Your part of the infamous Arrache build group, right ? I wonder, when is your group going to do more than taunt others for what your group does ?
 
                                                                          Jim
 
edited to add; this is an idea that rlortie posted in this froum with permission from Dr. Lindemann.
 I'm not sure, but I do believe Mt 20 was better engineered. When the over balanced weight moved outward, it stayed there until the wheels rotation allowed it to reset itself.
The video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEsqipy5ik0
The thread
http://www.overunity.com/6735/peter-lindemann-the-mechanical-engine-a-re-evolution-of-besslers-wheel/msg155847/#msg155847
 
 @AB Hammer, when referencing something, this is the proper way to do it.

overtaker

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2011, 05:00:42 PM »
Jim,  No I am not part of Arrache .  I am not even part of their private forum.


AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2011, 06:23:10 PM »
Jim

 What I was referring to, was in private mail with Pese and it was about fluid and tubes. I never claimed what you have drawn was my idea either, as you are so quick to accuse. Flexible tubes was a suggestion from Pese. The basic concept but not the exact same design as in every little detail, as you have been pushing for a couple of years now. Since you keep bringing me up, I  posted to let you know that I am very familiar with the basics of your wheel.  The problems you have is reaction of weight placement counter acting, and fluid retention to keep from flow back. One of my very first ideas I had was fluid movement as well but it was hard tubes and pistons.

I am not here to fight with you or anybody, so lighten up. Here is my original from Aug. 2007.  Another thing is I am no longer a direct part of Arrache either but am ready to work with, if the need is there.

PS When are you ever going to finish it so you can learn and move on? Talking don't build wheels. It's been 2 years on the same idea.

johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2011, 06:59:30 PM »
Jim

 What I was referring to, was in private mail with Pese and it was about fluid and tubes. I never claimed what you have drawn was my idea either, as you are so quick to accuse. Flexible tubes was a suggestion from Pese. The basic concept but not the exact same design as in every little detail, as you have been pushing for a couple of years now. Since you keep bringing me up, I  posted to let you know that I am very familiar with the basics of your wheel.  The problems you have is reaction of weight placement counter acting, and fluid retention to keep from flow back. One of my very first ideas I had was fluid movement as well but it was hard tubes and pistons.

I am not here to fight with you or anybody, so lighten up. Here is my original from Aug. 2007.  Another thing is I am no longer a direct part of Arrache either but am ready to work with, if the need is there.

PS When are you ever going to finish it so you can learn and move on? Talking don't build wheels. It's been 2 years on the same idea.

  Alan,
 When you posted that you and Pese had already discussed it, what can I say it sounds like ?
Also, why not call mercury by it's common name ?
 And you are right, talking doesn't build wheels, visit Besslerwheel.com where you are a highly respected member. Yet no one is discussing a build. Except for myself, and I was banned for it.
 You should remember Alan, if I am not capable of working to earn money to build with, then how can you expect me to build ? I think it is your reluctance to allow me to discuss engineering with other opend minded people that has been the failure.
 After all, it is by open discussion that has helped me to learn and better understand how Bessler's wheels might have worked. I can only believe this bothers you because you have not taken the time nor had the interest to learn as myself and others have done.
 And if I wanted, I could take the time to find the thread at besslerwheel.com where you discredited this very idea I am working. Haven't you tired of calling me a fraud ? After all, there might be a family in this for me. And if not, don't need it.
 
                                                                                   Jim
 

rlortie

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2011, 07:10:00 PM »
Oil, water and Mercury cannot be compressed and seeks it own level. Air can be compressed and seeks equalization of density, and yet you believe this will work.  It did not work 300 years ago and it will not work now.

I confirm that ABhammer is no longer affiliated with 'Arrache' and I refute in its behalf as being called 'infamous'... 'Arrache's track record is free of any blemishes and integrity stands tall.

I consider the 'infamous' claim as slander and is legally worthy of a civil tort for deformation of character.  That is unless you can prove otherwise backing up your claim.

Ralph Lortie
CEO 'Arrache'   

johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2011, 07:26:00 PM »
Oil, water and Mercury cannot be compressed and seeks it own level. Air can be compressed and seeks equalization of density, and yet you believe this will work.  It did not work 300 years ago and it will not work now.

I confirm that ABhammer is no longer affiliated with 'Arrache' and I refute in its behalf as being called 'infamous'... 'Arrache's track record is free of any blemishes and integrity stands tall.

I consider the 'infamous' claim as slander and is legally worthy of a civil tort for deformation of character.  That is unless you can prove otherwise backing up your claim.

Ralph Lortie
CEO 'Arrache'   

   Ralph,
 Sometimes with your temper and attitude, you and Alan seem so much alike.
 What can you sue me for, stating my opinion ? The 1st Amendement gaurantees my right to freedome of speech.
 It is not like when you ask Scott Ellis to ban someone who is building for having 3 red dots.
And this because you are asking to to show who donates the most money to his forum.
 What does donating money have to do with banning someone who is putting out obvious effort ?
 And as you just posted, the idea I am proposing did not work 300 years ago. I disagree with you as engineering supports it rather easily.
 If the lever is longer than the pump, then a mass equal to the weight can be displaced for the distance of the pump. Bessler realised this but no one you've been associated with has. That is why in my opinion, your group is infamous. Other wise you would not have bothered with an open source builder as myself. But you have. It can only be because you are afraid that I am right. This would make your efforts worthless or come to naught.
 And as a businessman such as AB Hammer is, you like a return on your investment.
 It seems if anyone is entitled to a return on their investment, it would be Stefan for giving people the opportunity to discuss ideas in an open format.
 Ralph, can I say Hi to Ken ? He's okay   ;D
 
                                                                             Jim

overtaker

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2011, 08:33:39 PM »
Jim,  How fast would you have to pump the water in an wheel turning at 40 - 50 rpms in your design?  I challenge you to set up an experiment and show how long it would take to pump the water in your design. 

johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2011, 11:25:03 PM »
Jim,  How fast would you have to pump the water in an wheel turning at 40 - 50 rpms in your design?  I challenge you to set up an experiment and show how long it would take to pump the water in your design.

  overtaker,
 First I need to retrun to work. That might not be until the middle of January.
If my surgeon says I am not able to work, then all I can do is talk wheel.
 Secondly, the first wheel using this concept would probably rotate slowly.
That would be okay as any idea would need to be developed. Even the build
design I have been working on for the last couple of years has been reviewed by myself many times. I have also done partial builds to learn what it does take to make a build like this work. And when I say work, I mean to do a quality build. Maybe something Bessler would be proud of.
 I also know there are people other than AB Hammer and his friends and rlortie and his associates who might be interested in working with me on this. You see, the third things is I have found no place to work.
 It seems credible builders would understand these things but both Ralph and Alan seem to have little understanding of them.
 Until then, who knows, maybe they will leave me alone. Other wise, they would be preventing someone from being willing to work with me.
 By the way, something they both missed, if mercury is used, because of it's density, it could be low in the pump. This would create a weak point which could cause the pump to break. If the force of the pump is spread over a greater area which light oil or water would require, then the stress on the pump itself would be over a greater area resulting in a better chance of it performing it's job over a long period of time.
 
                                                                              Jim
 
forgot the word area, oops. It's just that the surface pressure on a warped board needs to be considered.
                                                                               

AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2011, 12:19:28 AM »
Jim

  How many times do I have to say that I don't want anything you are talking about. But you still keep bringing up my name and if I reply, you misrepresent what I say. All the information I have given you, is old well known information because that is what you are working with. I do not support that you have anything that can or will work for most of what you have come up with has all been tried before. Just slightly different in the details.

 I remember about a year or so ago, I offered to build it for you, so you would see it won't work and shut up and try to move on to better ideas. But you rather attack me and claim I am trying to take it from you, or take some credit. You sometimes remind me of a drunk who won't let go his bottle for he thinks there is one last drop in it, thinking that someone else wants to take it from him. 

I don't care what you talk about as long as it is not about me. But I doubt you ever will be able to do that, for you seem to be so fixated on me.  I don't like it, but that is most likely the reason you do it.

I still wish you the best and if you really going to get operated on I wish you good heath.

Alan

PS I don't recommend anybody to build my #2 fluid design for I don't believe it will work.

johnny874

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2011, 05:30:30 PM »
   Alan,
 You have never offered to build this for me. And no, it has not been tried before.
What you and Ralph can not accept is that Bessler knew something that you two do not know.
 It is as Bessler said, he wished to start a school. As for, you have offered to teach me but I refused.
I told you that I would let Bessler teach me. Both you and Ralph claim there is not a running wheel in his drawings. Yet Bessler said there was. You and Ralph both support the Keel Effect. Count the weights above and below the axle.
 With Besslers Mt 67, http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Mt_067.gif
If a person considers that water or oil is being used, then most would consider it would rotate clockwise, even if the top and bottom postions were reversed. You know, the top empty. This is because there would be a volume of water or oil on one side of the wheel and none on the other. I am not sure how you and Ralph missed this. Would either of you care to explain ?
 Also, Mt 66 shows pistons. They are usually known for pumping and have what is called positive displacement. This is if either of you have any experience working with pumps. Doubt either of you do.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Mt_066.gif
 And did either of you notice those long levers ? If the pump is linked in the middle of the lever, then it is a 2:1 ratio. Pretty simple if you ask me. And theoretically, this could work. Actually, as crude as it is, if it rotated slow enough to allow the pumping of water or oil from bottom to top in succession, it would work. But Alan and Ralph, as the 2 of you have often stated, there is not a working wheel in Bessler's drawings.
 I disagree with both of you. I believe there is much to learn from his drawings. This is why I have continued working while you 2 try to discredit me.
 But since I am in opposition to the both of you, you 2 can discredit what I just posted about 2 of Bessler's drawings that are next to each other. There are other drawings which demonstrate a more efficient approach. But what Bessler wanted was someone willing to learn from his work. After all, if someone learned from him, then they would understand how his directions lead to his working wheel.
 But I believe to learn from someone else requires patience. and while I thought I have been impatient, I haven't been. I have been willing to take the time necessary to understand his work.
 
                                                                                                                                                     Jim
                             
 

AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2011, 07:49:05 PM »


Jim

 I am not going to try to show where I said that, for you had your P-Motion strings deleted.

I never said I would be your teacher but I did say I teach armoring.

The rest is just your imagination of the meaning of what you read.

What is funny is, you keep saying I don't believe in Bessler. You must be out of your mind for I wouldn't be doing this as long as I have if I didn't.

I believe Bessler did it. I don't believe you have any idea, but you seem to be trying to be the teacher. 

My lunch is over and I have to get back to work.

christo4_99

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2011, 08:10:39 PM »
It has been said something like : The main mechanism was so simple that a carpenter's apprentice could build it after studying the inside of the wheel . It has also been stated something like : all this fuss over a simple tool that scholars of the day have seen but not in it's complete form . Taking these notes together it is apparent to me that they are related and describe a simple mechanism but not necessarily a simple construction .

P.S. I actually built something similar to the above drawing ... the problem is the weight of the water columns , it keeps the cylinders/bladders full at the bottom , you are better off trying to pump the fluid up the descending side of the wheel than you are expecting it to go straight up . If you are going to build a pump/wheel try putting your reserve fluid at the axle and pump it sideways to the overbalance whereby you will still have to pump up the fluid from the bottom . You see , I am not an empty husk as some would have you think . Most times , in our designs we create an abundance of problems for ourselves in addition to the PM problem .