Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: Was Bessler for real?  (Read 132738 times)

christo4_99

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2011, 08:11:44 AM »
It is really sad that so many have chosen to hate on little ol' me . My design and Bessler's are one and the same . I understand every clue the man ever published and mine eyes have seen what you wish yours had. Bessler will be vindicated sirs simply because I say so and you guys will still be sitting here trying to act like someone you're not . if you only knew . I have a suggestion : Why don't you use that brain of yours for something other than a burden on your neck muscles and THINK of something that will rotate ? then you will be as smart as you think you are . So to answer the OPs question . Yes, definitely , Bessler was for real ! I dunno where these guys think the solution will come from when I've been trying to hammer it home for some time now . I can't really blame them though but don't I seem awfully persistent and awfully LOUD ?  ???

Dr

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2011, 03:48:54 PM »
Many people say that because bessler was a watchmaker, that his wheels were kept running via a spring. It is a fact , the wheel at kassle ran for 54 days nonstop. It has been estimated that the wheel weighed about 700 lbs. The spring mechanism would most likely hang below the axle, which was 8 inches thick. This would leave about 5 1/2 ft. of space for this mechanism. The spring would have been like the kind you would find in a pull out tape measure, only wider and thicker,,,,, and a great deal longer. I did some rough estimates, and to keep that wheel turning for 54 days nonstop, that spring would need to be 12 inches wide 3/16of aninchthick and over 300 ft. long. First of all it would not fit and second in 1716 they would not have been able to make it!!

christo4_99

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2011, 07:21:33 AM »
Many know the facts and have seen all the clues and read all of the books . Bessler has many believers all over the world . Only I am implying a direct connection to Bessler's work . It stands to reason that if Bessler wanted the world to know his secret then surely someone would come forth in what is now the future to make such claims as I . Whether they would be accepted or not is another matter altogether and actually one of little consequence . i will continue with what I am doing regardless of anyone's objection . What I do expect and am only occasionally getting is encouragement from those who know that sometimes it is want that leads people to greatness and that I, no matter how I'm perceived or received for that matter could possibly be speaking with authority and a knowledge and insight that others simply do not possess . I do not blame you in the least for believing in Bessler . But my challenge sir is for you to get beyond trying to convince people and believe it yourself ,apply your own brilliance to the problems with creating it . As soon as Bessler stepped down off the shoulders of the brilliant men who attempted PM in the past and applied his own brilliant mind,heart and soul to the problem he got his answers ,answers to the same questions you are asking . So carry on.

John Worton

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2011, 11:34:24 PM »
This thread caught my eye when I was looking for somewhere to weave-in my contribution and I note the comments it contains. 
I have ‘laid to rest’ once and for all the argument that Bessler was a fraud, and I have proven that he was ‘the real deal’.  It is not true to say that ‘only a running wheel will put to rest the story of Bessler’, nor is it true that ‘a working wheel will not be able to be proved as Bessler’s’, just as, it is untrue to say that his machine rediscovered ‘will not be able to perform any useful work’, and, I can assure you, he never worried once about being beheaded for being untruthful.
A simple drawing would suffice to disprove all of these erroneous claims, this is why Bessler ‘burned or hid all the woodcuts that prove the possibility’ as he says on the front cover of his unpublished manuscript; Further demonstrations regarding the possibility and impossibility of perpetual motion, or Maschinen Tractate by Johann Bessler, edited and published by John Collins (Leamington Spar: Permo Publications, 2007) as we now know it.
I have taken things several stages further than a simple drawing, and, having solved Bessler’s Clues (well enough of them anyway to solve the problem), have made and photographed The Armature: The Essential Element of The Bessler Wheel.
You can see The Bessler Wheel and how it works on my website, the link is; http://factumpoetica.org/

christo4_99

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2011, 12:10:00 AM »
JW, I don't mean to insult you but IMO that thing on your site will not run and furthermore I have some clues to Bessler's work that other's don't . I guess with people like JC and AP and now you,people like me who profess the truth and keep the device a secret will get lost in the shuffle . But that's okay . :-X

quantumtangles

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2011, 01:03:08 AM »
Many people say that because bessler was a watchmaker, that his wheels were kept running via a spring. It is a fact , the wheel at kassle ran for 54 days nonstop. It has been estimated that the wheel weighed about 700 lbs. The spring mechanism would most likely hang below the axle, which was 8 inches thick. This would leave about 5 1/2 ft. of space for this mechanism. The spring would have been like the kind you would find in a pull out tape measure, only wider and thicker,,,,, and a great deal longer. I did some rough estimates, and to keep that wheel turning for 54 days nonstop, that spring would need to be 12 inches wide 3/16of aninchthick and over 300 ft. long. First of all it would not fit and second in 1716 they would not have been able to make it!!

@ Dr

Your argument seems to be as follows:

"Bessler could not have invented and built a 300 foot spring in 1716.
Therefore Bessler invented and built a perpetual motion machine in 1716".

Interesting  ;D

I cannot decide (ad argumentum...) precisely what type of fallacy this is.

It reminds me of the fallacy 'Ad argumentum a priori', an example of which is as follows:

"The bible tells us of the existence of God, therefore God exists because the bible tells us so"

Dr

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2011, 01:18:00 AM »
Hi John Worton: Welcome to the forum, you have some very interesting drawings on your website, how much progress have you made towards a working gravity wheel?

Dr

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2011, 01:25:39 AM »
@quantumangles; there is no way you could have researched Bessler  completely, with a come back like that, i suggest you barely skimmed the surface and made a judgement call, and no those were not my words but yours!! :D

AB Hammer

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1253
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2011, 02:43:41 PM »
John Worton

 Welcome to the forum. Your drawing is very interesting, and the design is similar in some ways to several systems I have built. Is it a possible? could be. But Only a build will prove its true worth. Without a build there will still be doubt due to claims without proof have been way to often. But for sure it is worth a build and test. IMO

Alan

John Worton

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2011, 03:48:47 PM »
Hi Dr,

Thank you for your friendly welcome to the forum.

I know I have made very significant progress towards a working gravity wheel and so does John Collins with whom I have been corresponding for several months.   Please see John’s last posting dated 5th August at johncollinsnews.blogspot.com

I have for the time being stopped constructing wheels (or elements thereof) for reasons I hope I have made clear on my website.  I am happily standing aside for John to claim the prize of ‘the one that goes around’: a prize I feel he richly deserves after his many decades of work on The Bessler Wheel.  I am certain I would never have known anything about this subject if it were not for his publications.

I have progressed as far as a complete understanding of what The Bessler Wheel is and how it works.  The Bessler Wheel is simply a simple system of falling and rising levers and weights.  The essential element of the system is the armature: several identical armatures comprising a wheel.  The armatures are most profitably arranged back-to-back in pairs to form overbalancing beams.  Each armature folds up and in at the bottom and light side of the wheel, and up and out at the top and heavy side of the wheel, thus causing a permanent imbalance and thereby rotation.  Each armature has two weights on it: a large heavy weight close to the axle, sufficiently heavy to raise the armature, and a small weight at the end of the armature which is sufficiently heavy to raise the heavy weight over the axle.
The axle is the pivot point for the levering in and out of the armatures.  When a heavy weight is on the heavy side of the wheel it is ‘in freefall’ and pulls its armature in on the light side.  When a heavy weight is on the light side of the wheel it is a ‘dead weight’: the thing that the weight of the other extended armatures levers against to raise and extend each other in turn.

I have progressed as far as making the template for the armatures of a Bessler Wheel with a radius of 1.7m.  You can see this template on my website.  I have photographed this template in several positions and then combined the photographs to show how a working wheel works and what it will look like.  I would like to point out that because these images are composites of several static pictures they rather ‘underplay’ the extent of the overbalancing effect in a running wheel.  For example, in the picture of the eight-arm version, the small weight at approximately ’10 o’clock’ does not actually ever get out as far from the centre, and the small weight at approximately ’12 o’clock’ has already ‘fired’ further out and around.  Therefore, the overbalancing effect in a working wheel will be even better than my images suggest.

John

The link to my website is; http://factumpoetica.org/
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 05:15:24 PM by John Worton »

John Worton

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2011, 04:25:58 PM »
Hi Alan,

Thank you for your friendly welcome to the forum.

Yes, of course you are right, ultimately only a full build and test will prove the true worth of my design.  I am happy enough for now with your immediate response that my design is ‘a possible’ ‘a could be’ and ‘for sure worth a build’. I am used to so much more negativity from people!
Lets see what John Collins returns with from his mysterious disappearance.

John

The link to my website is; http://factumpoetica.org/
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 05:17:38 PM by John Worton »

Dr

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2011, 03:51:33 AM »
Hi John Worton: I was back looking at your website, and trying to figure out your leverage ratio. I mean how far away from the axle does the large weight travel, compared to the small weight? And does the large weight have maximum power below the axle? Thanks in advance John.

AB Hammer

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1253
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2011, 04:32:41 AM »
Hi John Worton: I was back looking at your website, and trying to figure out your leverage ratio. I mean how far away from the axle does the large weight travel, compared to the small weight? And does the large weight have maximum power below the axle? Thanks in advance John.

Dr / John and John Worton

 I have the action all mapped out, for a metal version and my test of it will be for adjustable weights due to possible effects in balancing. In regards to Dr's question. What is your suggestion of weights to start with. 1 to 4?

 I do most my work with metal due to I am a blacksmith, but due to the design Aluminum may be the best choice for now due to balancing. My goal is a single arm set for the first test. This will confirm actions and action timing. This is to see if it can go further for further test after all weight adjustments. I have built so many wheels I have learned what to look at. Since you have been in contact with John Collins, I will keep him posted as well.

Alan


AB Hammer

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1253
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2011, 05:03:19 AM »
John Worton

There is one other thing I forgot to mention. Negative leverage. There is a possibility that the longer arm may have this problem. Meaning that the small weight may control the larger weight.  It is the same with Scissor jacks when people try to get length with them. The design is simple enough and this is one of the test I put some types of design through. Just an early warning of one of the noted possible problems.

Alan

John Worton

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2011, 03:41:32 PM »
Hi Dr / John,

The leverage ratio is 1:7

I always considered 1717 to be one of Bessler’s Principle Clues.  When trying to work out what this number might refer to I could only ever think it was either an angle or a ratio.  In the end it turned out to be both.  Please see my drawing ‘A Slinking Cat’ on my website.

The large weight does not travel nearer to or further away from the axle: it always stays exactly the same distance from it.  This is because it is a short ‘fat’ pendulum swinging directly from the axle itself: rotating on a large bearing that the axle passes through.  Please see my drawing ‘A Heavy Pendula with Hook’.

It is the small weight that does all the travelling.  On my template for the armatures of a 1.7m radius wheel, when the armature is fully extended, the distance from the centre of the axle to the centre of the small weight is 1.65m, and, when the armature is fully closed the distance from the centre of the axle to the centre of the small weight is 0.6m.
The distance from the centre of the axle to the centre of the large weight is 0.24m.
The small weight weighs 0.5kg and the large weight weighs 6.5kg.

As far as maths and The Bessler Wheel is concerned, you or someone like you will have to tell me what is going on; I have no idea!  Apart from some very basic arithmetic I have no maths skills or knowledge.  Please remember that I am an Artist (a Fine Art Painter) and I have arrived at the solution to Bessler’s Clues via poetry and drawing, worked together with a very laborious process of ‘on the bench’ testing.  I am however sufficiently ‘with it’ maths-wise to realise that the figures I have given you mean my template has a leverage ratio of 1: 6.875 and not 1:7.  I do hope no one is going to respond to me saying pedantically that my figures are in error by 0.125!
Before they do they might like to look again at title page of Apologia Poetica and see how Bessler has very boldly placed 1716. - - 1717 on it.  (He does like to stick his clues right in your face!)  He wasn’t saying it took him a whole year to write the book!  He was saying that a leverage ratio of 1.6  - - up to 1.7 is good.

Does the large weight have maximum power below the axle?  Yes; it develops its power in freefall on the heavy side of the wheel (whilst at the same time pulling in its armature on the light side), and it delivers its (small) ‘push’ from approximately ‘6 o’clock’ to ‘8 ‘o’clock’ on the light side through its continued swinging.  Additionally it acts as a kind of ‘dead weight’ against which the other armatures ‘pull’ to open each other.

John


The link to my website is; http://factumpoetica.org/
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:32:57 PM by John Worton »