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### Author Topic: Was Bessler for real?  (Read 122862 times)

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #90 on: December 19, 2011, 05:36:40 PM »
I am not up on all the gravity stuff that is being tried, and well I probably never will be but I have not heard of any person making a very simple observation about mass falling under the influence of gravity, never making the observation that even when the mass is moving up it is applying a force down that can be used while you are lifting the mass back up, pulling it up by it's own bootstraps if you will.

Lets say you have a chain loop running over a sprocket, on this chain you hang a mass, as gravity pulls down on the mass it also pulls the chain turning the sprocket, now if you have a lifting device on the mass which reaches up the chain and grabs hold and lifts the mass back up you have allowed for two things to happen, first is that the input value from the mass is continuous, no stop in applied force, and second you have opened the system up to allow for an outside force to enter the system.  So the lifting mechanism is something like a spring loaded arm that is stretched up and the spring pulls the mass up, the force the spring needs to apply is the same force that the mass gives while it is falling, an even trade but the mass is still pulling and falling while you are lifting it back up, maybe something extra can be had there?

If this has been talked about then excuse my interuption and ignorance.

Tom Webb

Hi Tom,
Could you post a drawing ? I think it would help to understand what your thinking a little better.
You know, in Besslerwheel, someone actaully took the time to build something similar to what I think you are describing. What surprised me was when someone who hadn't built criticized it, he quit discussing his work.
There actually might be a way to use a secondary system to allow a chain lift to work. If I understand correctly, the weights dropping need to act as a whole, seperate from the rest of the system while still being the motive force.
What the undeserved criticism was is this, that the basic premise of the math will show all things to be equal and they will. The argument against perpetual motion is that if a weight drops one meter, it can only lift another weight one meter. This is all that needs to happen.
What I understood by considering math is that if 1/2 of the weights move 1/3 the distance, then the other 1/2 of the weights will move 2/3's the distance.
Where extra energy is gained is the point above and below the 1/2 that is the motive force.
The weights on the left and right side would cancel each other out. This means that about 1/4 of the weights would actually be creating resistence. And 1/4 is less than 1/2.
The orange weights would be the motive force. If you notice, there 7 of them and 5 on the other side of the chain. all the other weights would cancel themselves out. It would need a secondary system that supports the 7 weights and then drives the primary chain belt.

Jim

edited to add; Tom, the journey's end can be much better. This is what has kept me motivated and it is why I build.

#### AB Hammer

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1253
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #91 on: December 19, 2011, 11:35:26 PM »

Alan,
>> But now your change needs a roller on the short end to lessen the friction. But a good change <<

Read what I posted. I said it did.

>> What little early friendship died a long time ago when you couldn't follow reasoning and got nasty on Bessler wheel forum. <<

I think when you post I am the ultimate fraud would show I was never your friend.
http://besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4656

>> There are few individuals that get me irate on this site when they abuse my husband's intelligence for those people your not allow to do that, only I am, it is in my marriage contract so unless you want to marry my hubby back off. <<

I mean really, you will openly call someone who has openly built a fraud.
Using staionary arms;
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae278/bessler_supporter/Picture0121.jpg)
Using moveable levers/arms
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae278/bessler_supporter/23levers.gif)
Bessler's clue of the child's toy
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Mt_138-141.gif
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae278/bessler_supporter/Mt24mod1.jpg)

As you just mentioned, a real builder would put a roller at the end of the lever.
What I posted, lines 6 & 7.
>> The short lever or scissor would have a pulley at the end of it. This would allow it
to roll on the back side of a warped board. <<
I think this is why I do not like you.
Be it as it may Alan, I have never seen you build anything. NEVER.
Yet you criticize my efforts because openly building gives me something to talk about with other people. And as you told me and whorton both, you will build our ideas, but you will also show they won't work. You always have that caveat in it for yourself.
Don't need your help Alan as you do not recognize my education and work experience.

Jim

edited to add; Alan, when I was being treated for cancer, you would not allow me to discuss the build I was working on. Why we will never be friends.

Jim

Do you have a problem telling the difference between a roller and a pulley?

A roller is more of a wheel with no rims.

A pulley is with rim like sides to allow a rope in place, but can be used as a track roller. But having your arms fall from the device to pump it could cause it to catch on the edge and give you trouble. This is my point of only a roller. Your drawing didn't show either.

The fraud string is of how you play on forums in a fraudulent fashion. Your actions earned you this title as you are starting to show again. Please stop the lies and play nice.

To all

Now the Fraud strings was posted. Please read it through so you can see for yourselves. But note how many names Jim has posted under and the links I posted of his different names. The evidence is clear. Case closed. Jim was banned again, and again, and again, ....

Also Jim said I was posting as my wife. FDROLMAO  I treasure my nuts. My wife speaks for herself.

What Jim said that I highlighted in red is a big Lie. But he wants me to post more everything I have done, and He is the biggest reason I don't. As much as he attacks me I wonder if he is getting paid to antagonize.  Or it is just his obsession to try to destroy my name if at all possible, IMO.

PS It is simple Jim. Don't use my name and I will never post directly to you. Is this so hard for you to understand. It sure seems so. So what are we come up on now? 3 years plus of dealing with your slander.

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #92 on: December 19, 2011, 11:38:21 PM »
I have attached a bad drawing of what I am talking about.

So we have 2 sprockets, one up and the other down, we have a scissor lift mechanism that is spring loaded so that it has just enough force to lift the mass and finally we have the mass.

When the mass has fallen to a predetermined point the scissor lift mechanism is operated lifting its end up above the start point of the mass holding onto the chain and lifting the mass back up.

I understand that this system as described is a net zero system, meaning that the force to lift still equals the force from the fall but what I am allowing for is the introduction of an outside force that the system may be able to amplify, a constant force being applied to the chain and a means to allow for different rates of applied force.

For some reason when I see some of the drawings of Bessler's device I do not see a Gravity wheel per say, but rather a gravity powered mechanical amplifier, so I think that a small force is being added to the system at the appropriate time and the system is adding that input to the force of gravity changing the static start conditions of the system and maybe allowing for a change of velocity during certain phases of operation and that higher rate of applied force is where the gain comes from.

One of the things that popped out when viewing it as an amplifier is that the mass should not be pulled up the other side, when the mass is moving up the other side it is a total loss to the system but when you have itself lifted up by the chain it is still a loss but at the same time the loss is occurring the mass is still applying a positive force into the system.

Hi Tom,
Just going off the top of my head here, but if you had a swinging pendulum, then you would have an efficient force that could be recgarged to keep your wheel spinning.
What I'm thinking is the pendulum could lift your scissors which lifts your weight. And when the weight's allowed to drop again, it creates more force. The difference between a straight line and a curve. Or simply put, when you close one scissor, they all close. This would use less energy lifting the weight than the energy being generated when the weight drops  causing your wheel to spin.
Like I said, just a quick thought but what you're showing is something new I believe. But I like it.

Jim

edited to add; Tom etal, this link is for how grandfather clocks work. They are not as simple as some would believe. And in knowing that Bessler built them would help to demonstrate some of his knowledge.

#### AB Hammer

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1253
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #93 on: December 19, 2011, 11:47:11 PM »
I have attached a bad drawing of what I am talking about.

So we have 2 sprockets, one up and the other down, we have a scissor lift mechanism that is spring loaded so that it has just enough force to lift the mass and finally we have the mass.

When the mass has fallen to a predetermined point the scissor lift mechanism is operated lifting its end up above the start point of the mass holding onto the chain and lifting the mass back up.

I understand that this system as described is a net zero system, meaning that the force to lift still equals the force from the fall but what I am allowing for is the introduction of an outside force that the system may be able to amplify, a constant force being applied to the chain and a means to allow for different rates of applied force.

For some reason when I see some of the drawings of Bessler's device I do not see a Gravity wheel per say, but rather a gravity powered mechanical amplifier, so I think that a small force is being added to the system at the appropriate time and the system is adding that input to the force of gravity changing the static start conditions of the system and maybe allowing for a change of velocity during certain phases of operation and that higher rate of applied force is where the gain comes from.

One of the things that popped out when viewing it as an amplifier is that the mass should not be pulled up the other side, when the mass is moving up the other side it is a total loss to the system but when you have itself lifted up by the chain it is still a loss but at the same time the loss is occurring the mass is still applying a positive force into the system.

I will look up some of my videos where I tested for another member where a weight and a spring was use. This should help you out to see what action you most likely will get. Resiting springs tend to be problematic. But what you have posted need something else to be evaluated correctly.  I will send you some links in private messages for these test in a few days.

Alan

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #94 on: December 20, 2011, 12:02:00 AM »
Alan,
Why don't you just post the videos ? Maybe someone might spot something you're missing.
Just a thought you know, this being an open forum and all.

Jim

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #95 on: December 20, 2011, 05:20:15 PM »
The mechanism for lifting the mass back up can be done in many different ways, how that is done is not the observation I have attempted to convey, what is is that if the mass is lifted from the "chain" by something attached to the "chain" then the mass is always giving input to the system whereas  when you allow the mass to go over to the other side of the system it can no longer add to the system while it is being lifted, the mass can multitask if you allow it to.

Hi Tom,
In the thread "Bessler's Other Wheel ?", the idea of 2 levers at 90 degrees is something that can gain extra force with the use of a spring by it pulling laterally.
With 2 pendulums, one could be lifting one weight while the other weight is powering your wheel. How ever you consider it, it does need to start as a closed loop system that feeds itself.

Jim

#### christo4_99

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 387
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2011, 04:14:11 AM »
Most people have "reason" to believe that Bessler was a fraud . You are on the well beaten path . If you can achieve little in addition to making a turd from your regular meals you have"reason" to believe that Bessler was a fraud . If you hope to achieve something rare you must yourself have something rarely seen in these circles . It is obvious to anyone following Bessler that one aspect in which he could be considered a rare type of person is his articulation of written word . This points me toward his authenticity , that is , among many other things . The reason you are not willing to accept what the man has claimed and written about is you know very little of the subject which you are so opinionated about .

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #97 on: December 21, 2011, 07:44:50 PM »
I love playing with mechanical devices and setups.

I have reason to believe that Bessler was a fraud, not in that his device did not work but rather in the actual wheel and what it did.  I am feeling that the wheel itself was deliberately over hyped to help hide what he was doing.

I need to play more with what I think might be the trick before I say much, usually when I get like this I am wrong due to missing something really stupid, but I am thinking what I have already said might lead to the answer.

Tom,
I hope you don't mind if I took some liberties with your concept.
It is well known that Bessler built clocks as well as mills. What you
might find interesting is how your idea could fit in with what is
known about Bessler and his work.
Pendulum clocks have a line wrapped around a drum. The line
supports the weight that powers the clock. If the bottom point
of scissors were attached to the line, then if a point on the scissors
were lifted 5cm's, the total lifted with 2 sections would be 20 cm's.
By having a spring help to reset the drum, the counter weight would
weigh less. This would allow for more net force. I am not sure if a
second pendulum would be necessary. But just as a falling weight
powers the movement of the clock, like wise it could power a wheel.

Jim

p.s. usually when someone makes a stupid statement like "I think my idea will lead to a Bessler Wheel", it is stupid. In your case, you might be right.
And no, I don't think you missed anythng. Idea's take time to get them right.

edited to add; the hoist might be able to be located next to the drum. The drawing is just
a basic concept trying to advance Tom's work a little bit.  Jim

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2011, 01:14:18 AM »
Please feel free to modify anything I may posit for consideration, things are often better with more eyes and thoughts working together.

the hoist could be located anywhere except inside the wheel.

I am the first one to admit that 90% of what I come up with is flawed or incorrect, but then those missteps lead to another observation that I might not of made without them

Ya know, with what I'm working on, I'm still learning how to build it. Then again, when's the last time someone did something like this ? Bessler would be it.
I figured out what the spring is for, it's for tension. This way, when the weight is allowed to drop, the line is already under load.
Other wise, when the weight drops, it might fall some before the line becomes taught.

Jim

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #99 on: December 22, 2011, 03:41:51 PM »
For me the idea is the easier part, I mean coming up with something to try is not so hard but then I have to think not just *how* to build it, but how *I* can build it with the things I have available.

Here is a trick I learned decades ago for when you take the belt off of the water pump before you undo the bolts that hold the pulley to the water pump, it is simple but only works within a discrete angle:

Put your wrench or socket on the bolt and bring the handle across the center shaft now the force you are going to apply is at 90 degrees to the handle, not in an arc as in trying to apply the torque to the bolt.  The applied force from you attempts to rotate the center shaft in the opposite direction and that creates the torque in the correct direction to deal with the bolt, you can also use this to undo lug nuts when you have already jacked the car up and taken the tire off of the ground.  You will need to play with the exact offset angle relative to the center shaft to make it work best, I do it without thinking about it and so when I do try and think about I just confuse myself

Tom,
That's kind of why I'm glad we have serpentine belts now. And they use a spring loaded tensioner.
Right now, I am working on a board warping fixture. I think it could take me a couple of months to warp boards so will start with that.
With your idea, I have thought of something. I call them half moon gears but they might have a proper name. It's gears that are not a full 360 degrees. This could allow them to engage another gear and when desired, move free of it. This could be the trick to lifting a scissor and then releasing it.
The idea would be to lift the scissors/weight at the start of the downward swing. Then the pendulum could swing free. And of course, since the weight is rotating the drum, it could be seen how much extra force it can generate.
And what works in one direction should work in the other direction as well.
Jim

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #100 on: December 22, 2011, 10:09:24 PM »
A lot of new cars still have the water pump pulley bolted on

Maybe I was being too cryptic, what the trick shows is that there is a small angle of interaction between a lever a force and a pivot with resistance where the reactionary force is in the opposite direction to what you would call normal, so push down on the lever and turn the pulley in the opposite direction to where you are applying the force from, aka push down on the left side and the left side of the pulley goes up, now when this angle is not correct then the force will move the pulley in the same direction aka push down on the left side and the left side of the pulley goes down.  With this setup it is possible to have a spring resistance at the pivot so that when you push down on the lever on the left side the pulley moves up and you load the spring resistance, then with a change in the included angles relative to the force the spring will unload and pick up the lever and apply a force that turns the pulley in the same direction as when the force was first applied, kind of like a rectifier.

This setup so far as I have played with it is not overly efficient, but I have only tinkered with it and have not tried very many ways of going about it so it may be of use or it may just be an useless curiosity.

Lmao  . between that and Mt 20, it kind of opened my eyes to what I'm doing now.
it's something everybody has missed. With Mt 20,
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Mt_020.gif
if the short lever rotated counter clockwise, that is essentially what it would be doing.
What they have failed to consider is that as it rotates counter clockwise, the upward or outward force it exerts is equal to the force being applied to the lever.

Jim

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #101 on: December 22, 2011, 11:59:44 PM »
Got sidetracked looking at 140 pictures.  So many of those devices actually seem to use the same force functions in the same way that they have always been used, if that worked it would of been done long before the time of Bessler.

One of the things I look at is direction of applied forces and what the actual reaction from the system is and I mean all of them including the systems reaction from an outside refrance frame view.

I know my little trick works, how well ?? but as I see things if *I* can find it, some other person smarter than me already has so the things I play with I always assume have already been done.

Tom,
Bessler wanted to start a school, didn't happen.
One of the difficult things to say is what Bessler actually did. In the thread, Bessler's other wheel is one way swinging weights can work. And with what we've been discussing is another way. So did he only do it one, more than 2 ways ? He was never really clear on this.
I also thought of another way scissors could be used. It's using levers that cancel each other out while performing work. Might not work though because with scissors, the more sections you have, the more resistence, etc.
What you described is a part of a system. It's getting the whole system to work is what matters.

Jim

Jim

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #102 on: December 23, 2011, 04:12:22 PM »
Indeed, something that works has value.

My gut feeling is that what Bessler understood could be transormed into using whatever was available, it was not so much a specific thing but a relationship of forces in motion, like the bootstrap idea, the methodology can vary but the goal has to be the same ie: reset the mass with the needed force by applying that force between the mass and the thing the mass is moving.

Tom,
You know I got to thinking about something funny last night. Over at besslerwheel.com, one member did say they are their own sect and even have some of their own words.
That is one thing about Bessler, because he didn't prove his work himself, there will always be different opinions about what he did or did not do. And with engineering, levers and wheels have been around for a long time. It's the unique ways of using them that allows for people to be ingenious.

Hope you have a nice Christmas.

Jim

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #103 on: December 23, 2011, 10:13:54 PM »
Hey Jim,

I hope you have a good christmas and new years.

A commercial comes to mind where, I think it was Dow, said, that invention is important but it is innovation that makes changes

Tom,
So true. I'm going to have to remember that
See ya'all Monday

Jim

Tom, Thanx     I have promoted your idea in 12x's thread. Had a thought. If it works, then with what Vjelko has been working on could help those who need it the most. Running water that is. Not everyone has it but it is the first step in fighting disease.
Jim
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 11:50:23 PM by johnny874 »

#### johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
##### Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #104 on: December 26, 2011, 01:15:04 PM »
Tom,
I'll post a simple diagram showing how a pendulum develops power.
What might be a thought is to let the weight drop right after it's lifted.
Then because the pendulum would swing further than it should, a
block could stop it and then let it swing back the other way. Something
like this would only need one ratchet type movement to work.

Jim