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Author Topic: Was Bessler for real?  (Read 122863 times)

johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #105 on: December 26, 2011, 04:40:46 PM »
Tom,
The drawing I did shows a single oscillation pendulum.
When the pendulum starts to swing, it lifts the scissors on
it's 2 outer points. The fulcrum acts as a hoist lifting the
scissors closed.When the fulcrum releases the weight, it
rotates the drum which also causes the fulcrum to rotate
quicker.
In theory, if the scissor is lifted 5 cm's (2 inches), it will
close twice that height. Since it is mechanical, even a 1.5:1
ratio should keep it swinging.
Where the 2 lines curve to the right from the scissor would be pulleys.
And also when the line turns up to the fulcrum. And by knowing when
something needs to engage and disengage, it will help to fill in the details.
Also, a stopping block may be needed. The pendulum will only need to
swing so much to work. And what might be missed is that acceleration is
caused by the vertical drop. That's gravity for you. And with it's path from one
side to the other is time. And when both are used together, then an idea can be
had how long it will take for the weight to drop and accelerate the pendulum to
it's velocity. Classical Newton if ever I saw it. His Laws of Motion do come in
handy.
As it is, if anything, because the lift of the scissored weight is greater than the
lift of the 2 points on the scissor, the pendulum might be slowed relative to real time
as well. But this would be okay because the resulting acceleration would hopefully
be more.

Jim

edited to add; if the pendulum is 1 meter, then at 30 degres, it would have a 13.4 cm drop
and a 50 cm horizontal movement to reach bottom center. This is important as in lifting
the scissors would need to be factored into or subtracted from this in determining the over
all motion.   Jim

johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #106 on: December 27, 2011, 06:10:07 PM »
Tom,
I think this might be our own invention. One thing about scissors is
that they are made up by a group of levers. And Bessler said that when
he saw his wheel rotated some, he built more pulleys and levers. There
might be a way that when one lever in a scissor is rotated up or down, all
the other levers move upwards or downwards with it.
It's possible we realized a slightly different way of doing what he did. If so,
then yes, it is our invention because it is different than the way he did it.
I'll try to explain how pulleys can be used as gears to work levers in a
scissor type fashion. Give me a day or 2.

Jim

johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #107 on: December 28, 2011, 12:53:34 AM »
@All,
With what I was working on and with what Tom was discussing, together they work quite well.
Mt 26 is the drawing that came to mind yesterday. If you follow the link, Bessler tells us there
is something missing. Levers and pulleys. I was talking to a gal I know at work. I was surprised when she remebered I was working on Bessler. I had to tell her I've had to stop working on it until I can get back to normal health.
What I am going to do is detail how Bessler's wheel would have worked. And who knows, maybe Tom, gdez or Neptune might give it a go.
The secret behind would be that when the pendulum swings, it rotates a pulley. This in turn rotates a lot of other pulleys that go from the outside of the scissor, to the middle, back to the outside, back to the middle. Basically. like a serpentine belt on a newer motor.
What happens is that the pulleys in the middle of the scissors alternate the direction they rotate. This causes them to wind in another line that goes down the middle of the scissors. They open as one and close as one. And with the line powering the pulleys going from outside to middle, etc., when the scissors close, the line stays the same length, so that is not a problem.
I'll post a drawing tomorrow. I think everyone should have a good idea of it. And if not, by all means, ask questions. This way everybody can have the same level of understanding. After all, we are talking about Bessler

Jim
p.s., if you want, go out to your car or someone elses and look at the pulleys and belts.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_21-40#MT_026

edited to add; I decided to add a drawing of Mt 26 rotated 90 degrees. If a pulley is at A and rotates clockwise and a pulley is at C rotating counter clockwise, then the red line would be reeled in by both pulleys. The tan line that goes from a to b to c would be the line that converts the swing of the lever into the power that operates the pulleys. The rotation of the pulley would depend on how the line approachs it.
Something to think about and hopefully someone might give it a try.  Jim

johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #108 on: December 28, 2011, 06:42:03 PM »
@All,
This drawing shows more levers. There are a couple things I am mindful of.
One of them is that Bessler built a wheel 4 inches thick. That's not much room
to work with. This concept could fit in such a small space. The weight on the
pendulum could swing underneath the weight that hangs from the drum.
This just means the connecting rod would be on both sides of the scissors.
It is possible to use an off set pulley on top. This means that the axle would not
be in the center of the pulley, but lower down. This would allow the swinging
pendulum to rotate the drum counter clockwise, lifting it's weight. When the
pendulum releases the drum, then it's weight would start dropping putting it's
enerhy back into the system.
One thing I have wondered is if the drum's rotation could be slowed to allow
the pendulum to swing back to it's starting position. If so, then the wheel would
be under almost constant power. And one last thought, the drop of the pendulum
and it's distance from the center line would be how it's potential for leveraging the
lift of the drum weight would be considered. It might be lighter than what it would
seem to need to be.
As time goes by, I'll get into the math. Then it could be better understood what it
would take to build a working model.

Jim

edited to add; the basic numbers for what I drew is the CoG of the pendulum's weight
is 13.5cm from center. The scissors are 1 cm from center. That's an amazing 13.5:1 ratio.
I think I have the pendulum at a 30 degree angle. And FYI, because metric can work well
with trig, the math I will be showing will be in metric. An example of this is 1 meter @ 30 degrees
puts a weight 50 cm from center with a drop of 13.4 cm's (1m - 86.6 = 13.4). From this, we can figure
out how quickly the pendulum needs to lift the drum weight (degrees of rotation).
for SAE, 2.5cm = 1 inch (close enough  )

johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #109 on: January 02, 2012, 03:44:05 PM »
Hey Jim,

Strange thought I have been having, now do not read anything into this it is just a thought thing I am playing with.

So, you have two identical masses connected together by an ideal string, aka no mass no resistance and it will not stretch, and this string is hooked over an ideal pulley, no mass no resistance, alright, now if you come from underneath one of the masses and apply an impulse hit upwards the mass accelerates is if there is no gravity and turns the impulse hit into inertia, right? anyway so now when you stop *that* mass from moving you should be able to recover the input force, so what about the other mass.

Like I said it is just a strange thought, I am not sure if the input would be applied to just the one mass or if it is split between the two,, but the string can not transfer that force,,,

This came from asking myself what if I had a 2:1 lever but I only wanted to lift the heavy mass 1\2 the distance I could, say a 1 pound mass lifting a 2 pound mass, the one pound mass moving 2 feet and the 2 pound mass only moving 1\2 foot?

Tom,
What you're describing is Newton's Cradle. They sell those. One bearing drops down at strokes one at rest.
The inertia travels through a few bearings and the last one swings upward. When it swings down, it repeats the process.
What you've thought of is better than that. I've been trying to think of a simple test to help demonstrate it's potential. Basically, how fast it could cause a wheel to spin.

Jim

johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #110 on: January 04, 2012, 12:38:18 AM »
I actually was running with many variants of this in my head and remembered an older setup I was playing with for something completely different but it had two masses a string a pulley and a spring holding the pulley up in the air and I remember taping on one of the masses with the end of a pencil and watching all of the movement the little pencil hit could create.

inertia is something, isn't it ? there are probably a lot of ways this can be tried.
I think what you posted was one of the better ways.

Jim

johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2012, 04:21:33 PM »
Tesla found out what a little bit of resonant inirtia can do

If it wasn't for working on gravity power, I'd probably build something he did just to see sparks fly.

Jim

johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #112 on: January 05, 2012, 12:59:43 AM »
no videos, I have only recently started posting pictures of some of the stuff I have been playing with, well the stuff I have enough left of to take a picture, I tend to use my old test beds as a parts store for new ideas.

Simple things has some stuff and some thoughts.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11149.new;topicseen#new

Tom,
I read some on your work. I had a friend years ago who went to school for computers. I never understood how he understood how gates worked so easily. I think for me, could be why I do what I do.
I am going to read some more of what you've done. I'm not sure if I'll understand it as well as you, but even if I don't learn something because it's beyond my grasp, it will help me to appreciate more what I can do even if I'm only a grease monkey

Jim

johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #113 on: January 05, 2012, 03:43:43 PM »
Don't  know how much stuff I "know".  I have been playing with different ways of looking at things for decades, some worked most didn't but they all showed me "things" of sorts.  I have been playing with Bloch wall gates for so long it never occurs to me that some people may not know how to turn off the local area field effect as such, it is not anything new and nothing I do with it is new, well as far as I am concerned.

I do it all for the fun of it, I get a thought and I try and find a way to see if it is valid or not then take the info I get and incorporate it into my daily view on how things work and come up with something else.

I was a "papered" mechanic, spent a lot of time fixing computers, building houses and buildings, making cabinets,,,, a lot of things so don't cut yourself short, you may understand my stuff better than me.

I have a varied background as well. I've have built a few wheels over the last 5 years or so. They're what helps me with mechanics. With your idea, I'll probably build it. I have considered a couple of different ways to build it. It'll most likely be the end of the month before I could start working on it. But I really do think it could work. Could try explaining it all, but as they say, the devil is in the details.

Jim

johnny874

• Hero Member
• Posts: 958
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #114 on: January 06, 2012, 03:45:06 PM »
Jim,

I have an observation that I will share but it will be left vague, if the observation holds true for many things it would be a shame to hide it with a single value.

Sometimes and in some conditions an interactive system that becomes a net zero interaction will allow for a change within the interactive potential without reacting to the change.

I think this is the observation Bessler made but it does not stay with just masses and gravity, it should be able to used in many systems.

This is the thing I need to play with more to see if it works, if it only works on paper and in my head it is useless, but I have a strong feeling that it is valid.

Tom,
I think one thing Bessler did was to not over analyze what he realized.
I think this is a common mistake everyone makes. I used to do this as well.
The different ideas I have posted all have a common theme, something performs
work more efficient than previously thought possible.
With what I will be demonstrating, it is a simple design. And this allows it to realize it's potential.
And who knows, maybe those in the 12X's thread might consider5 approaching math from a little different perspective. Until I get it built, really isn't much to discuss.

Jim

christo4_99

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 387
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #115 on: January 09, 2012, 06:12:31 AM »
Looks like the admin here has removed the restriction from my posts ! Thanks for that .

christo4_99

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 387
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #116 on: January 12, 2012, 06:38:46 AM »
I talked to Ralph about building my design and the conversation did not end well . It doesn't matter why ... nothing against Ralph , btw . Although he is fond of insulting people I am not . Also , from my point of view and what I'm looking at lately most people could not intuitively grasp how this thing works . Only after looking at it for days and days in an animation/simulation did I grasp the secret ( spare me your opinions about animations because they are great for learning and "feel" ) . So , that being said I am confident enough in my design to actually spend the money and build it myself . Bessler was so much more clever than a lot of people give him credit for . Everyone wants to think that he some how came up with this thing by accident . I beg to differ !

P.S. I know this is a free energy forum and all but some of you guys actually seems to be very imaginative with your ideas and frankly you may some day lose something of yours that's valuable all in the name of impressing people you don't even really know and have never met. I'm all for free energy but free in a sense that it's cheap or minimal cost , not " toss my accomplishments and ideas in you lap" kind of free . Just words of advice .

overtaker

• Full Member
• Posts: 111
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #117 on: January 13, 2012, 02:53:09 AM »
WOLF!!!

christo4_99

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 387
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #118 on: January 13, 2012, 05:55:14 AM »
WOLF!!!

Crying a little louder these days . But as of late not really bothered at all by snide comments and such , not really bothered by much at all .

christo4_99

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 387
Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #119 on: January 20, 2012, 06:36:25 AM »
Since this topic has slowed I would now like to take the opportunity to let some of my thoughts be known . Bessler was a Christian who succeeded because of his belief in God and the ideas that inspired his device came from the Bible . He is known by history to be ill tempered among other things , but we must all admit at some point that as far as history is concerned we make men what they are . So Bessler had enough information printed to insure the preservation of his honor and his mobile . All of this speculation and endless sharing of ideas and/or bickering may or may not contribute to the eventual solution . To me , in the event that someone (including myself ) is successful in building a mobile the first person who must be honored is Bessler because without his example,well let's just say that the P.M. argument would be somewhat one sided . It would simply be seen as an impossibility with no real explanation required ...pretty much what we already have . So at this point I would like to say that the device which I am presently building is in honor to Firstly : God in whatever form he reveals himself to men and Secondly : Johann Ernst Elias Bessler (Orffyreus) who I think should be considered a prophet or at the least very close to God . I urge all of you to hold your tongue like the good people I know you are and have just a little more patience awaiting the very drawn out (as it were ) conclusion to this most interesting story .