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Author Topic: Was Bessler for real?  (Read 132846 times)

Dr

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Was Bessler for real?
« on: July 31, 2011, 05:01:33 PM »
I would like to start this thread to once and for all lay to rest, whether or not Bessler was a fraud, or was he the real deal, and did he in fact have a working gravity wheel!! Please feel free to give your opinion, PRO or CON! Thanks to a man by the name of John Collins, who has given over thirty years of his life in research of Bessler, we have a large pool of information to look at!

AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2011, 05:13:32 PM »
I would like to start this thread to once and for all lay to rest, whether or not Bessler was a fraud, or was he the real deal, and did he in fact have a working gravity wheel!! Please feel free to give your opinion, PRO or CON! Thanks to a man by the name of John Collins, who has given over thirty years of his life in research of Bessler, we have a large pool of information to look at!

Dr

 Only a running wheel will ever put to rest the story of Bessler. Then and only then will Bessler be fully vindicated and a new understanding.

Alan

Dr

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2011, 06:07:27 PM »
Hi Alan, I know you think Bessler was for real, but can you give me your single most convincing argument as to why? ???

AB Hammer

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2011, 07:54:18 PM »
Hi Alan, I know you think Bessler was for real, but can you give me your single most convincing argument as to why? ???

Hi Dr
 
 At the time of transaction and review of how his device worked. Bessler offered his head and to have the axeman there, if it was not what he claimed. Since my life is dealing with history. You can get a good understanding of what is serious. In the time of Bessler, you didn't make such offers lightly. You would in deed loose your head for fraud. There are plenty of documented witnesses as well that give even more positive belief of his success.

 Even though a working wheel will not be able to be proved one way or the other as Bessler's. But a working wheel can and I believe will vindicate of the fraud name that modern science and some historians like to give him.

Alan 

Dr

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2011, 09:58:32 PM »
Yes Alan, I think they would have taken off his head if he was found out to be a fraud. He was asking for 100,000 Thalers ( how big a coin and what was it made of) in 1712, if a KIng paid that much and Bessler was indeed untruthful, he would be hunted to the ends of the earth, and wish all he got was a beheading!!!

christo4_99

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2011, 01:55:53 AM »
 This is my kind of topic ! Ok ,the evidence says that Bessler's wheel hands down was the most likely candidate in history to be authentic .
By the same standards even today the tests that the wheel was put through would convince  almost everyone that it was true Perpetual Motion . The problem as I see it is our imaginations can't quite put the same finger on the process that Bessler's did .Perhaps he had an advantage that we can't have . Perhaps his principle came from some place other than mere man . I have an idea that Bessler had more than one reason ... three to be exact for tying his principle to God .

 P.S. I have promised in the near past that if I can get this idea of mine to work it can be tied to Bessler , actually in more ways than two. So to me statements like ABhammer just made are still assumptions , although logical and likely or even probable ,assumptions nonetheless and should not be taken as fact .
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 07:27:44 AM by christo4_99 »

quantumtangles

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 02:12:53 PM »
A surprising number of people on this site are fans of Bessler. So I tread carefully when I say he had a background in watchmaking.

The problem I have with Bessler (leaving aside for the moment that his machine or something similiar has not been replicated) is that no-one has been able to demonstrate mathematically (theoretically) how such a machine is possible.

Ok. So they may be difficult to build. Fine. In that case show me a mathematical model indicating viability. A model showing anything other than net torques and forces adding up to zero.

When one considers powerful financial motivation and a background in watchmaking, fraud remains a real possibility.

When considering why an inventor would destroy their invention (for reasons of secrecy or because they were worried about being eviscerated and hung) all I can say is that 'evisceration' trumps 'patent infringement' every time.

Even if my view is wrong (it is after all only an opinion, based on the same facts available to everyone else), we have to ask ourselves what 'use' a perpetual motion machine would be...even if someone had managed to build one (sometime in the two most recent centuries of intense scientific progress).

Perpetual motion machines, even if they functioned as intended, would not in most cases be capable of performing useful work (I use 'work' not in the sense of moving something from one place to another, or the 'term of art' scientific sense, but in the sense of doing something useful for human beings aside from spinning aimlessly around).

That is why the United States Patent Office automatically rejects applications claiming perpetual motion. Because even if they worked and generations of nobel prize winning physicists were all fools, they would still be useless.

Perpetual motion machines attract scientific nutters like a powerful magnet (I include myself in this category as I find them fascinating). Accordingly, Bessler was one of us. For that, even though skeptical of his machine, I still love him.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 03:30:03 PM by quantumtangles »

WilbyInebriated

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2011, 02:20:07 PM »
Perpetual motion machines, even if they could be shown to work, would not be able to perform useful work.
what evidences do you have to support this?

Pirate88179

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2011, 03:01:49 PM »
The atom has electrons that orbit without slowing down.  Even your keyboard is made of them.  Are they not perpetual motion?  If not, why not?  Do they slow down over time?  If so, how much time?

I have no idea if Bessler was for real or not...from what I think I know, gravity is a closed system and therefore can't be made to do any OU work.  But, I am the first to admit I don't know everything and have an open mind.  But again, I ask about the atom.  I have argued this with my old college physics profs way back when and never received a decent answer.  Do electrons slow down?

Bill

fritznien

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2011, 07:19:01 PM »
Bill electrons are funny things, everything under quantum mechanics is.
first the electron dose not loose energy as it "orbits" so of course the orbit will not change.
more important its orbit is nothing like the orbit of a planet around a star.
your prof should have been able to explain some of this.
I know enough about QM to know i am not qualified to explain it.
may i suggest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics for a start.
the wave particle nature of sub atomic particles is a real mind blower.
fritznien

brian334

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2011, 11:27:06 PM »
a
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 12:08:01 AM by brian334 »

quantumtangles

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 12:14:14 AM »
Good point about electrons. But their motion depends on heat.

If absolute zero were possible, electrons would stop moving.

The closest anyone has come is the Bose Einstein condensate. Matter breaks down (a few millionths of a degree above absolute zero). It begins the transformation into 'no thing'.

Slightly off topic though.



 

The Eskimo Quinn

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2011, 04:50:34 AM »
I have explained thios many times however go to 1.15 on this video and it explains why newton was wrong even in his own math and explains how a 5 year old can prove fall is not equal to lift and the bicycle wheel is what bessler must have seen as i did and simply configured that extra energy into his machine, forget the magnetic drive afterwards, this comment relates to the bicycle wheel comments in the film as relating to bessler

 remember nothing you can say or do will change what the wheel does to defeat newtonian bullshit, in fact the wheel would have to stop suspended with the weight at 9 oclock falling back defying gravity for newton to be correct


  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEwzalCFdKw

christo4_99

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2011, 06:58:04 AM »
  I have not just been sitting around twiddling my thumbs all this time . I am almost to the point of  being able to take bets on this subject .  I have not made any friends but that was never my goal anyway . Some of you will be glad to hear that Bessler was for real , and the problem with accepting that lies in a lot of grey areas .  All the time I hear people talk about fraud and i realise how safe a bet it must seem to be from where they stand that Bessler was insane enough to pull this one off and deceive the whole world.But from where i stand it is very clear that he was exactly who he said he was and that probably was very honest in what he wrote and said.To begin with you have to realize that this was Bessler's CAREER and not just a hobby . Soon enough all this talk will come to an end and those who spoke out against Bessler and this possibility will have to shut their mouths and listen for a change...no matter who they might be . The time is now very short . PUT YOUR MONEY ON BESSLER and to a lesser extent,me.

overtaker

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Re: Was Bessler for real?
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2011, 06:21:23 PM »
I would love to place money on Bessler and considerably more against you!