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Author Topic: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex  (Read 137336 times)

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #135 on: May 18, 2008, 04:54:50 AM »
It's in the second one.

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #135 on: May 18, 2008, 04:54:50 AM »

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #136 on: May 18, 2008, 05:03:14 AM »
It's in the second one.

still can't see it

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #137 on: May 18, 2008, 05:12:19 AM »
it is the one that starts as OOPS I forgot the avi

due to its size it may take a little while.

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #137 on: May 18, 2008, 05:12:19 AM »
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Offline Alexioco

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #138 on: May 18, 2008, 05:15:33 AM »
Strange, I cannot see the file anywhere on the messages you send me, they are usaly at the bottom

Offline Gustav22

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #139 on: May 18, 2008, 07:31:42 AM »
Hi Harti and everybody,
I agree to Harti's thoughts about the manipulation of the centre of mass (centre of graity)
I also want to draw your attention to several points:

....
When a weight has gone down in the gravity field without being attached to a spring,
its potential energy has been converted totally to kinetic energy and its energy has been "lost".
....

Harti, in the quoted text you say, the potential energy has been converted.
I agree.
In the next half sentence you suddenly say the energy is lost.
How can it be lost, when you said it was converted? It is still there as kinetic energy ( = speed).
It must now be converted back to potential energy.

....
But again I miss my own principle, how I understand a gravity wheel
can only work is that there are no springs which store the movement
( that means store the potential energy) of the weights.
....

I understand that you want to use springs more or less as storage batteries for the potential energy.
But I think you don't need them. Please try to see the whole wheel as a battery, which stores the energy as speed (= angular momentum, kinetic energy). The amount of stored energy will accumulate (= get bigger and bigger), as more gravitational force impacts the wheel over time.
The wheel will speed up (= run away).
Bessler needed the external pendulums to restrict the speeding up.

I think Alexioco is very close in his latest diagrams, especially the one I attached here.
Please also compare this to my drawing here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4514.msg96275.html#msg96275

Maybe you can simulate this latest simple mechanism by Alexioco, Harti !?

PS I think there will be several embodiments which will work, as long as the shifted weights B and D are shifted directly  through the central hub of the wheel as in  Alexioco's drawing, to avoid keeling.

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #139 on: May 18, 2008, 07:31:42 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #140 on: May 18, 2008, 02:15:14 PM »
I  did now a few more new simulations and all have the problem,
that the CoG ( Center of Gravity) of the wheel
shifts just down and then the wheel
just keels.
Also the same with using springs.

Also these drawings Alex and Gustav put up from the MT combination are pretty
flawed, cause the folding rods in the lower part are longer than in the upper part of the wheel,
so it does not work like this...
It can not fold together like this.
These drawings are overexagerated, so to say..

So I think, the only way to get a perpetual wheel
is using the centrifugal forces somehow.

Just the weight forces alone do not work.

One must convert the centrifugal and centripetal forces somehow
to unidirectional forces and use these to lift the weights up again.
Remember Bessler?s wheel was said to have made a lot of noise,
so the weights must have been pretty fast inside the machine,
so he probably also used centrifugal forces.

Just moving weight forces alone would not have made such a noise.

I will post this evening a few of my simulations, so you can see, how they
all keel out.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #141 on: May 18, 2008, 02:47:11 PM »
Ok then

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #141 on: May 18, 2008, 02:47:11 PM »
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Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #142 on: May 18, 2008, 03:38:43 PM »
Besslers wheel was said to have 8 hits per round and scratching sounds like wood rubbing together.

 CF is the enemy it has caused more wheel designs not to work or if they even could, they would not work very well due to the CF effect. You have to overcome CF effects and still make it heavier on the descending side and keep the shifting that way.

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #143 on: May 18, 2008, 03:40:25 PM »
I wander how the answer is so simple yet we cannot get it...

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #143 on: May 18, 2008, 03:40:25 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #144 on: May 18, 2008, 05:19:17 PM »
I think I have found a first solution !

Remember it was said as ABHammer also repeated that there were scratching sounds.

In my view this can only be done by ramps.

Here I have come up with a 2 weight and pulley system and a ramp.
Very simple indeed !

The green weight has 40 Kgs.
The blue weight has 20 Kgs.
As the green weight is on the ramp,
it is getting much lighter and climbs the ramp
to the top and leaves it and falls down, as he green weight  is double the weight of the blue weight.

This could be incorporated into a wheel to lift heavier weights with lighter weights.
If you make both weights the same weight and let the blue weight also rise on a ramp
you can make a kind of see-saw effect.

So Bessler probably used pendulum weights and did put them on tilted ramps to move them up
and then let them fall again propelling the wheel.

I will further work on this and present some animations, when I have got a bit sleep for now..

Regards, Stefan.

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #145 on: May 18, 2008, 06:03:30 PM »
Well about the scratching noises, I think it comes from poles sliding over eachother just like in MT14/15 thats a good idea...

IMHO I think that its best to stay with just the MT's and work on them from there...

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #145 on: May 18, 2008, 06:03:30 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #146 on: May 18, 2008, 07:02:44 PM »
Sorry Stefan,

Nice thought but there is no extra energy here. The vertical height traveled by the heavier weight is exactly half the vertical height traveled by the lighter weight if we leave things like friction out for the moment. (In fact it is a little less otherwise we would have equilibrium.) You need ALL of that energy to bring the lighter weight back to the starting position. It acts similar to a lever.

Hans von Lieven

Offline broli

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #147 on: May 18, 2008, 10:53:23 PM »
I was thinking about the wheights that are dropping. When they drop they pretty much transfer their kinetic energy on to the rods or just back on the wheel giving it a "push" in the oppesite direction of motion. I was wondering if we couldn't flip this "push" so that it somehow "pushes" in the same direction as the wheel is spinning in. This is a wild idea but can't we stick a gear in there somewhere hooked to one of this weights, when it drops it turns the gear which is then connected to the axel and thus contributes to the main motion being clockwise in this case.

Offline Gustav22

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #148 on: May 19, 2008, 06:18:40 AM »
Hi harti and all
...
I will post this evening a few of my simulations, so you can see, how they
all keel out.

Regards, Stefan.

I guess you did not do that, Harti.

By the way: How would you identify a self-runner in your simulation program?
Would you be able to recognize it?

Regarding 'keeling':
For a clockwise running wheel, the center of mass or of gravity is allowed to move in qadrant I and quadrant II (see attached drawing).
As long as the COM remains in these two quadrants there would be clockwise torque (which is good).
That is to say, that the COM is allowed to move into the lower half of the wheel, as long as it stays in the right half.

How must the COM move back up again?

It has to be moved up on the blue line (vertical middle line). In this way it will not create anti-clockwise torque and the wheel will keep moving along as it should.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #149 on: May 19, 2008, 06:34:27 AM »
Hi Gustav,
sorry, yes, I did not post it yes, cause I first have to export still the movies
and convert them.

Well, also I am stillworking on the ramp design and stillhave first to
try a few other things out with this.

I just made the ads ready now for the Dieter Merfurt Osmosis Water motor which
you can see at the left border.
It is also a working gravity motor, as there are weights shifted via the Osmosis effect.

For 10 US$ it is a nice kit and an excellent toy and present
for your kids...

Regards, Stefan.

 

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