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Author Topic: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex  (Read 150217 times)

Offline broli

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #105 on: May 17, 2008, 02:31:41 AM »
I also just noticed wm2d supports dxf files. This means you can make very precise models in some drawing tool, rather than hacking your way in wm2d.

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #105 on: May 17, 2008, 02:31:41 AM »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #106 on: May 17, 2008, 04:54:07 AM »
Okay,I did now the new simulation,
but this thing just hangs out and balances out.

Here are 2 pics and in the next message I will post the WM2D file.

I did it now very exactly, so all rods have the same length.
The Center of Mass falls a bit below the axis and then the whole
wheel acts like a pendulum going back and forth...

Maybe I have to change the rods length again.

All blue weights have  10 Kg and the wheel has 20 Kg.

I hope somebody will play also with myWM2D file
and can get it to work.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #107 on: May 17, 2008, 05:00:02 AM »
Okay, here is now the WM2D file:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get62

Have fun playing with it.
I will change and optimize now the rod lengths and will see,
if it will turn then...

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #107 on: May 17, 2008, 05:00:02 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #108 on: May 17, 2008, 05:40:34 AM »
Sorry Stefan, I don't seem to be able to access it.

Even though I am logged on it shows me on this page as a guest and if I press the login button on this page it puts me back to the starting page and the whole thing starts over.

Error message: you are not allowed to access this section

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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #109 on: May 17, 2008, 06:53:59 AM »
Hi Hans and all,
I have to recheck the permission.

Otherwise here are now all my latest files:

http://www.overunity.com/alexioco

I just made another movie,
which is also there.

http://www.overunity.com/alexioco/alex_harti02.avi

There you can see, that it is very important,
that the Center of Mass ( CoM) never goes down,
but stays at the same height and is shifted to the right side of the wheel.
Only this way via the shift and not going down, we can achieve the contineous
turn of the wheel.

SoI have to recheck all 4 parts of the wheel
now, how the CoM is behaving and then try to redesign it this way...
Regards, Stefan.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 07:21:49 AM by hartiberlin »

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #109 on: May 17, 2008, 06:53:59 AM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #110 on: May 17, 2008, 06:55:08 AM »
Thanks Stefan ..it keels when all the weights [driver & driven] are the same 10 kg's each - it keels when either the driver or the driven weights are changed to 5 kg's leaving the other 4 at 10 kg's - I suggest it will keel with any combination of weights ratio & rod lengths you care to try.

N.B.1. the rods in WM are massless for the purposes of the simulation - if the rods were replaced by rectangles with even a little mass it would still keel but would find a slightly different 'balanced' position i.e. where no torque is produced - if you can't be bothered adding pin friction to everything I suggest you select .... World>air resistance>low pressure    .... as an approximation of some ordinary system losses a real build would encounter [this will slow down & dampen the oscillations].

N.B.2. keeling is an analogy/metaphor for a yachts keel that lowers its CoG, in the process standing the yacht upright at the water line.

I guess its up to you to find a combination that works while Alex & Ralph independently build the thing to cross reference ?!

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #111 on: May 17, 2008, 07:19:15 AM »
Okay, here is a picture, of what I mean.
the inner weight is 30 Kg and the outer weight is just 10 Kg.
So via the rod levers you can pull up the 30 Kg weight via the
10Kg weight and the CoM ( Center of Mass) does not go down, but goes to the right side of the wheel,
making it there heavier.
Maybe we still find a solution, so the CoM goes up ?
But I think this will not be found, as when the weights move, their combined
CoM does always go down at least a bit first.
But here in my example movie
alex_harti02.avi
you see, that the CoM goes down and up again
and shifts to the right  side.

Well, I am again then now copying the first quarter weights setup to the other
quarters of the wheel and will study the CoM further...
We will see, if we get then the wheel to shift all of its CoM to the right side and thus make
it heavier there, so the wheel could rotate clockwise...

Stay tuned..

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #111 on: May 17, 2008, 07:19:15 AM »
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Offline rlortie

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #112 on: May 17, 2008, 07:29:02 AM »
Fletcher and forum members;

I guess its up to you to find a combination that works while Alex & Ralph independently build the thing to cross reference ?!

Due to the amount of interest and the number of members all working on this design,  I wish to set the record straight.

I am not nor will I soon start building this concept.  I will wait until everyone runs their simulations and perchance some real builds are explored.

If you recall, my policy is to build submissions that I deem viable or questionable for those that do not have the resources,  tooling or skills to do it themselves. In this case Alex claims he is capable of building it himself. Therefore I decline.  I am not in the position to be building wheels for those capable of doing their own.

 Alex  has publicly given me an OK to build and modify as  I see fit, which I did not have when first reviewing his design.
If a runner is not presented and the present excitement and enthusiasm dies, then I may be interested in seeing what my innovation may provide. For now I have other interests, and will watch this thread run its course.

Ralph

EDIT:  IMO the simulations displayed here is leading away from the original submitted drawings that I received.   

« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 07:54:04 AM by rlortie »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #113 on: May 17, 2008, 09:26:43 AM »
Okay, I uploaded another new movie over  here:

http://www.overunity.com/alexioco/alex_harti03.avi

and the simulation file to it:

http://www.overunity.com/alexioco/alex_new17.wm2d


As you can see in the movie the
CoM  ( the dotted ball below the axis) moves to the right,
then the wheel turns and then it just keels.

We have to find a way, that the weights will shift again before it keels
again...

But I think, this Alex MT combination can not work this way.
I tried various setups and this was still the best so far.

At least I do know now the WM2D programm much better and
will try now to solve the Milkovic puzzle with it.

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #113 on: May 17, 2008, 09:26:43 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #114 on: May 17, 2008, 09:40:05 AM »
Here is a picture for those who have not looked at the movies yet.
You see the CoM ( dotted ball) is below the axis and has shifted to the right
and then the wheel
is behaving like a pendulum
as the weights do not shift anymore inside the wheel
and it just keels.

I guess this only can be overcome if springs will be used, which
are fixed with one end OUTSIDE the wheel and with the other side
to a weight inside the wheel.
But then the syncing of all the spring actions will be very hard to do
purely mechanically...

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #115 on: May 17, 2008, 10:06:01 AM »
I will wait now for Alex to let us know,
if his build will behave differently than my simulations.
I believe it not.
It will also keel and will not run in my opinion.

First we have to find a way, that the CoM will alsways shift to
the right ( for clockwise rotation) and never move down inside the wheel,
even better have to move up.

Well Alex, now it is your turn with your build.

Regards, Stefan.

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #115 on: May 17, 2008, 10:06:01 AM »
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Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #116 on: May 17, 2008, 04:11:37 PM »
Greetings Stefan

 That avi is just what allot of us who have built wheels have seen all to often.  ???


Offline Alexioco

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #117 on: May 17, 2008, 09:09:56 PM »
Very nice wheels, shame they didnt work the same way mine does...
There are subtle differences when building wheels, the ones you have built wont work as the poles dont exeed the liftings weights, just leave me to do it now and we will soon see if the wheel runs, if not then im off for a big study...

edit: I just watched it again and in fact im sorry but they work nothing like mine, thanks for your hard work in simulating these wheel though, :) You must of worked hard on them, well done :)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 09:31:41 PM by Alexioco »

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #118 on: May 17, 2008, 09:59:16 PM »
Alex

 I looked at the photo again and then looked at the avi. No they are not quite alike, but the effects may be. Of course I hope not, but I see 3 weights in the kill zone before shift, and 2 weights in the upper negative zone above 9:00, and 3 in the positive power zone the descending side. It is not looking good in my eyes. Take the graphs I sent you and over lay on your design Remember that the best power is between 2 and 4 o'clock spinning clockwise. the kill zone is between 5:30 to 9:00 this is due to it's going up hill effect. Some would ask why 5:30 as the start, that is simple, you have lost all power and it is in the shift from positive to negative.

Offline Alexioco

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Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2008, 10:09:08 PM »
Alex

 I looked at the photo again and then looked at the avi. No they are not quite alike, but the effects may be. Of course I hope not, but I see 3 weights in the kill zone before shift, and 2 weights in the upper negative zone above 9:00, and 3 in the positive power zone the descending side. It is not looking good in my eyes. Take the graphs I sent you and over lay on your design Remember that the best power is between 2 and 4 o'clock spinning clockwise. the kill zone is between 5:30 to 9:00 this is due to it's going up hill effect. Some would ask why 5:30 as the start, that is simple, you have lost all power and it is in the shift from positive to negative.

That?s why I hope the weights that extend upwards will help; also, the weights that extend upwards are heavier.
I have learned with any perpetual wheel that there a re always two more weights on the ascending side than there is on the descending side, its always 2 more weights or if its a bad design then maybe more... if this stops my wheel even with the rods having heavier weights then I/we need to find out how to reduce the weights on the ascending side, if you can?t get any less than two then momentum, excess weight is very important and even centrifugal force...

I need to find out why two more weights are always on the ascending side, there as to be a way to beat this which in itself would be perpetual if achieved...
If my wheel does not work then I will have learnt that width cannot be used to achieve height, unless Bessler did it that way in a strange way, you see, really he must of as my wheels come purely from his MT's...

 

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