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Author Topic: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex  (Read 256474 times)

Alexioco

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 579
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #210 on: May 29, 2008, 07:56:54 PM »
The footage is done, you might not be able to hear me all of the time, when you have seen the footage, I will answer requests if you have any...

Alexioco

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 579
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #211 on: June 03, 2008, 10:23:19 PM »
Ok I want to announce to you all that my wheel sadly does not work, here are the reasons why...

When the weights drop, they lift the other weights up which is supposed to cause rotation, but because the weights drop, it results in two extra weights collecting on the ascending side meaning that one cannot trade width for height...

Also a weight must travel straight from the axle to the rim of the wheel, a weight that travels half way up from the axle is not enough to sustain motion, a weight must travel the full distance in order to move the wheel enough for the next movement to happen...

In other words, the weights in my wheel do not move out and in far enough to sustain motion...

rlortie

• Full Member
• Posts: 178
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #212 on: June 04, 2008, 02:37:39 AM »
Kudos Alex,

You may have got a little presumptuous with your original concept of  merging two or more MT designs. But like a man of integrity you followed through and lived up to the end result. Only in my opinion it is not the end results, unless you deem it as such!

Note; I do not specify the actual MT drawings by number, that is because your original private post contains reference to a drawing not mentioned on this thread. I told you that there was something wrong and you posted that I was right and was the only one to notice. You did not pick up on that which I was pointing out, and in my opinion your original concept is a long way from being dead!

Alex you are I believe a young man easily influenced.  I have stayed out of the picture as you wanted to proceed on your own.  I hold you in great respect for your innovation and your tenacity to build with limited resources.  It is not many of us who would use cardboard and the backs of two chairs for an axle support.

Your concept, IMO still shows viable reasoning for farther research. By your choice I am not at liberty to divulge the discussion here.  I give you an "A" for innovation, an "E" for effort and a "C" for letting yourself fall into "tunnel vision"...

Ralph

Alexioco

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 579
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #213 on: June 04, 2008, 01:45:58 PM »
Kudos Alex,

You may have got a little presumptuous with your original concept of  merging two or more MT designs. But like a man of integrity you followed through and lived up to the end result. Only in my opinion it is not the end results, unless you deem it as such!

Note; I do not specify the actual MT drawings by number, that is because your original private post contains reference to a drawing not mentioned on this thread. I told you that there was something wrong and you posted that I was right and was the only one to notice. You did not pick up on that which I was pointing out, and in my opinion your original concept is a long way from being dead!

Alex you are I believe a young man easily influenced.  I have stayed out of the picture as you wanted to proceed on your own.  I hold you in great respect for your innovation and your tenacity to build with limited resources.  It is not many of us who would use cardboard and the backs of two chairs for an axle support.

Your concept, IMO still shows viable reasoning for farther research. By your choice I am not at liberty to divulge the discussion here.  I give you an "A" for innovation, an "E" for effort and a "C" for letting yourself fall into "tunnel vision"...

Ralph

Lol I don't think its a different wheel Ralph? Also my wheel can be changed so it can have a better chance, MT 27 NEEDS to be added, I knew from the beginning that MT 27 was important but was unsure how to do it and thought my wheel already worked...

I will talk to you by email and me and you can work this wheel out because over the last few days I have made some very interesting discoveries about combinding those MTs...

Thanks for the A

Dgraphic911

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 75
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #214 on: June 04, 2008, 03:32:17 PM »
"In other words, the weights in my wheel do not move out and in far enough to sustain motion..."
alex

HMMM, i'll give you an A for building a wheel and trying to stay on task. But unfortunately F's all around for the rest of your behaviour. (i get lots of F's to so don't worry)

You were doing so well in the begining with myself and alen and working through thought process's on your own with new eyes which is great. But when you decided you alomost had it and began this campaign of disjointed threads shifting your ides every other day i became very much disinterested. And then the i know something but i'll show you later. C'mon i do that so it drove me crazy.

But Now that you see what happened, hopefully you will change your stategy on how you announce sucess's. Because you are one of the very few who are actually building and learning from models you still have a very good chance of learning and bringing yourself closer to a wheel that spontaneousl begins to rotate. Youv'e seen what doesn't feel right.

You can reread my MT's thoughts page, it will tell you EXACTLY why.
"In other words, the weights in my wheel do not move out and in far enough to sustain motion..."

I am not a wheel expert, but the Mt's were designed to teach, I know your discussing them with other people, and i don't want to get involved with that, I have my opinions which is why i kept them separate in my own thread. But its not about combining the Mt's but learning form them each one will teach you a valuable lesson in the forces that will need to act together in the final working wheel. Its then up to you to be able to put all the pieces together (not literally). I repeat NOT Literally.

Alexioco

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 579
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #215 on: June 04, 2008, 09:00:18 PM »
"In other words, the weights in my wheel do not move out and in far enough to sustain motion..."
alex

HMMM, i'll give you an A for building a wheel and trying to stay on task. But unfortunately F's all around for the rest of your behaviour. (i get lots of F's to so don't worry)

You were doing so well in the begining with myself and alen and working through thought process's on your own with new eyes which is great. But when you decided you alomost had it and began this campaign of disjointed threads shifting your ides every other day i became very much disinterested. And then the i know something but i'll show you later. C'mon i do that so it drove me crazy.

But Now that you see what happened, hopefully you will change your stategy on how you announce sucess's. Because you are one of the very few who are actually building and learning from models you still have a very good chance of learning and bringing yourself closer to a wheel that spontaneousl begins to rotate. Youv'e seen what doesn't feel right.

You can reread my MT's thoughts page, it will tell you EXACTLY why.
"In other words, the weights in my wheel do not move out and in far enough to sustain motion..."

I am not a wheel expert, but the Mt's were designed to teach, I know your discussing them with other people, and i don't want to get involved with that, I have my opinions which is why i kept them separate in my own thread. But its not about combining the Mt's but learning form them each one will teach you a valuable lesson in the forces that will need to act together in the final working wheel. Its then up to you to be able to put all the pieces together (not literally). I repeat NOT Literally.

I agree, I will not again post anything of success until I have built my wheels...

Sprocket

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 410
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #216 on: June 26, 2008, 04:01:41 AM »
@Alexioco - what happened to your website...?

http://z11.invisionfree.com/Bessler_Quest/index.php?showforum=1

markh

• Newbie
• Posts: 19
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #217 on: July 30, 2008, 06:01:59 AM »
Hey Alex

Have you looked at mt 136 much?

I have been looking at all of them, and this one just stands out to me, to have something a little unique.   the levers labeled D on the outside of the wheel strike me as something that could be quite usefully implimented in a wheel.

Imagine that one side of each lever had a weight that was much larger than the other.  The actual weight on each side would be the same.  (ie a 1 pound and a 10 pound weight on each side)  I don't think it would necessarily help the wheel turn, but what it would do is  always want to have the heavy side of the lever down.

If the wheel were turning clockwise, the lever on the right would have the heavy weight on the bottom, and the light weight on the top.  As it passed the bottom of the wheel, it would rotate 180 degrees to have the heavy weight at the bottom.  It would do the same thing at the top.

I don't see the weights themselves adding rotation, (maybe they would...I haven't built it yet)  but I don't think those rotating weights would take away anything either.   It's like a way of pulling energy from the rotating wheel.   I would think that those rotating levers could be used to help overbalance the wheel elsewhere.

I don't mean to change the topic of the thread, I just thought I would throw that out there.

peace
mark

markh

• Newbie
• Posts: 19
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #218 on: July 30, 2008, 06:46:55 AM »
Here's another thought on that same one.  It looks like there are springs near the axel of the design, or threads of a screw.  Both of which could be used.  Either the spring to help with the rotation at the top and bottom (which would be the easiest place for the rotation)

If they are screw threads, I think it's even more interesting.   The rotation of the weights could be used to change the center point of the wheel, thus overbalancing it.

By the way, I wrote these to Alex, but if anyone else has any kernels of wizdom, I would really love to hear them.

peace
mark

Alexioco

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 579
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #219 on: July 30, 2008, 10:43:29 PM »
Here's another thought on that same one.  It looks like there are springs near the axel of the design, or threads of a screw.  Both of which could be used.  Either the spring to help with the rotation at the top and bottom (which would be the easiest place for the rotation)

If they are screw threads, I think it's even more interesting.   The rotation of the weights could be used to change the center point of the wheel, thus overbalancing it.

By the way, I wrote these to Alex, but if anyone else has any kernels of wizdom, I would really love to hear them.

peace
mark

Hello Mark, glad to see you are interested and trying, I invite more ideas still

Yes this is a wheel I have not looked at but now that you mention it, it seems something of an importance...

About the large and small lever idea, that seems great and like you said, its getting power from the wheel itself, very good...

The those levers that flip just like "jacobs ladder" could be used to litt other weights, infact, they act just like jacobs ladder, on the descending side one flips to the right and on the ascending side one flips to the left, then this can be used for other things, WOW you have got me thinking now

Alex

Edit: If you look at that wheel and the position of the D's, they all face downward like thats the heavy end, when they flip to the right, they may release a spring and when they flip to the left they may pull them back in...

markh

• Newbie
• Posts: 19
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #220 on: July 31, 2008, 06:06:09 AM »
I agree, it seems like a viable way to move things.    The more I think about it ,the weights themselves would also affect rotation.  (I think)  If the top and bottom one are both facing to the right (their heavy side on the right) , It seems that it would push the wheel clockwise.  I am more than willing to be wrong on this one, but if you could have a spring to assist in the rotation at the most efficient spot (directly up and down) that it seems like the wheel would move.   It seems almost too simple to be the answer.  Thus I'm not holding my breath, but as soon as I can, I think this is going to be my first actual build.    Unfortunately I probably won't be able to start my wheel build for another month or so, but I'm looking forward to it.

I always look at these MT drawings, and think of them too often as 2 dimensional wheels.  I think we have to always think about how these wheels may interact in 3-d space, like that lever rotating toward us.    Due to his clues about it being so simple that a carptener's apprentice could do it, i think it's got to be something that is right in front of us, but none of us are seeing it, our brains aren't putting together the clues in the right order.

I know, I know, it can't be done, and it's impossible.   I look at this more like the ultimate brain teaser.  It's about seeing if you can figure it out.  You never know, we just may figure it out.

peace
mark

Dr

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 85
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #221 on: July 31, 2008, 03:32:33 PM »
HI Alex and Mark H: Here is an Idea I have about the above drawing #136, What if the levers at "D" were not levers at all but leaf springs and attached to the springs are those half round weights, now instead of this whole apparattus being outside the wheel, it fits inside so that the combined weight of both crossbars pushes the bottom leaf spring flat to the inside curve of the wheel. But at the top that leaf spring would be straight so that the weights could just make contact with the inside rim of the wheel. Now all the weight of the crossbars is stored as energy in the bottom leaf spring and lets say we turn the wheel clockwise as the 6 O clock position heads towards 9 O clock CF and gravity release some of their hold  and the springs force the entire inner mechanism towards 3O clock. Just a theory what say you?

markh

• Newbie
• Posts: 19
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #222 on: August 01, 2008, 02:54:25 AM »
Hey Dr

That's interesting, its like you are separating the inside from the wheel,    I must admit my math on this whole concept is limited, so I'm going to have to rely on my build coming up (hopefully soon)  but it seems like a very interesting idea.

peace
mark

Bessler007

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 302
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #223 on: August 23, 2008, 08:05:30 PM »
The whole is the sum of its parts.

Any combination of the MT's should produce a more complex machine resulting in an average of its parts.

No where in the MT's can a solution disproving the conservative nature of gravity be found.  Those graphics might better be viewed as an historical overview of attempts.

Most looking for an answer to this perplexing riddle either review historical efforts seeing the beauty of Da Vinci's D curves or happen on them independently.  In either case it's mathematically provable to be a dead end.

Some of the greatest mechanical geniuses God has blessed humanity with have attempted this riddle.  Some become bitter heaps complaining when people talk too much then when people don't talk enough.

Now if you can do the math disproving the conservative nature of gravity you might have a sound idea to build.  An alternative to working the equations is to build and let reality do the math.  Either way the math will be done.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 08:46:14 PM by Bessler007 »

unbalanced

• Newbie
• Posts: 15
Re: Bessler Wheel Theory by Alex
« Reply #224 on: November 11, 2008, 12:21:49 PM »
I have posted this theory over at Re: New accelerating gravity wheel ! Converted video from  but I feel that this is a better home for it and so will repost it here modified:

Hello everyone: I am new here but I feel as though I know many of you well, having read till my eyes blurred. Bessler said something to the effect; "...taking various illustrations together and combining them with a discerning mind, it will be possible to find a valid description of motion." but motion may not be the best translation, perhaps movement as in the movement of a clock.

I believe that Bessler's movement has been right in front of our eyes for 300 years and no one until perhaps me, saw it for what it was. What I have to say will give credence to Bob's design and lend a great deal of insight into what I preceive to be the most logical explanation. I like the idea of open source but remember where this comes from... Bessler himself.

In the following illustration of Bessler's, note the stampmill on the extreme left. I do not believe that this was placed in this illustration to denote that his wheel was capable of doing work. This is the internal mechanism of the machine. In other words this is a rendering of what is actually inside Besslers wheel.

That the rods were moved from 5:00 to 12:00 by means of the very similar workings of a stamp mill cams and collars were used. The cams in Bessler's wheel were connected to an inner shaft that was independant of the wheel but connected to the pendulum. In this manner the pendulum not only regulated the the speed of the wheel by determining at what angle or time each rod would be lifted (if the wheel is going too fast the rod would meet the cam at 4:00 instead of 5:00 etc) but I surmise that the pendulum initially added the extra power needed to lift a rod ( at lower rpm) by turning the cam in the opposite direction of the on-coming rod. This again lends more credence to Bob's design which uses a lifting cam. In Bessler's wheel the collar on the lifting rod rode up the cam as the wheel turned but at the same time the cam was being turned or forced under the collar by the pendulum. Once the wheel had gained inertia the pendulum could be haulted in the virtical.

When Bessler wanted to slow or stop his wheel he needed only to rotate this cam so that the weights began ascending while outboard. Bob's device would benefit by this moving cam arrangement rather than using a disk brake to regulate speed.

If nothing else this theory of mine would add the additional inertia (that of the independant pendulum helping to lift the rods) which is wanting to bring Bessler's wheel into line with the laws of physics.

In the following illustration it seems clear that these push rods or shafts went through drum/axel. I feel certain that the cam shaft that was connected to the pendulum went through all of the rods that were cut out (with long ovals) so as to move around the shaft and still be able to travel up and down.

Though it flies in the face of what has been said about the gentle starting of Bessler's wheel, it occurs to me that the rope around the axel going out the window to the palat of bricks was not a demonstration of potential work either but rather the only means Bessler had of getting his wheel up to sufficient speed to have adequate centrifugal force to carry the shaft from where it was thrown to just past neutral to where it could be flung to it's outer stops on the opposing side. In short it is possible that the rope was a starter cord. I'm sticking to the stamp mill mechanism but I'm not married to the starting cord.

My hypothesis is further based on Bessler's four and six rod drawings in which two opposing weights were placed on the ends of push rods or shafts that went through or just beside the axis. I believe Bessler's shafts were square though the weights may have been cylendrical.

Bessler's wheel was unique from all the previous designs of mass shifting over-balance wheels in that his wheel alone utilized the potential created by five decending weights to lift only one weight at a time vs several or half of them and (2) he utilized, at least in starting up his wheel, a pendulum that provided external force to aid in the lifting of the individual weights. (3) Bessler's design only needed to lift each weight a small distance beyond the neautral point where in centrifugal force carried the weight the remainder of the distance.

If there exists, even the remostest possibility that Bessler's was a workable design then it would be incredibly remiss of all who take an interest in such folly not to pursue this endeavor to its extremes. A successful wheel of this nature is exactly what the world needs right now on just about every level I can think of.