Author Topic: Muller Dynamo (Read 4348844 times)

duff · « **Reply #3885 on:** July 01, 2011, 02:53:11 AM »

Quote from: itsu on July 01, 2011, 01:11:27 AM

New video to be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNtnLAVk9Og

New puzzle for me: according to the theory, when in resonance, we should have NO phase shift!!

Regards Itsu

Itsu,

The magnitude and phase of the circulating current in a parallel resonant circuit is different inside the tank vs outside the tank.

I think you were actually looking at the correct point when you had the 1 ohm resistor outside the tank .

To test this you can return the resistor to the previous position and change the capacitance while keeping everything else constant. You should see a phase shift.

Jdo300 · « **Reply #3886 on:** July 01, 2011, 04:20:03 AM »

Hello Bolt and All,

Me and my research group today started doing some tests and measurements on our pulse motor. Since we were interested in observing the effects of adding a series vs. parallel capacitance to the output coil, we tried both configurations to compare the performance difference. The results we obtained were very interesting and we posted a couple of YouTube videos demoing the motor's behavior in both parallel and series modes:

Parallel Mode Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRPrCIA-IU

Series Mode Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qqcq-lbP8A

NOTE: The videos contain a lot of raw footage so apologies for the bad camera handling at times

.

In both videos, our generator coils are wired in series canceling (bucking) configuration and we short the output of the circuit through the DC bridge rectifier white monitoring the tank circuit voltage and current using a scope and DC-50MHz magnetic current probe.

For specs on our generator coils, see my previous post here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3842.msg293269#msg293269. All other details including the circuit schematic and scope measurements are included in the videos.

Executive summary of tests:

What we observed was that when the capacitor was in parallel with the motor (speed tuned to resonant frequency), the motor sped up about 100 RPMs when the output was dead shorted through the DC bridge rectifier; but the tank current and voltage waveforms collapsed (same results and waveforms as Itsu). When the short is removed, the motor slows back down. If the parallel capacitor is removed completely, the motor accelerates faster that it does when the output is shorted (so the presence of the capacitor in the circuit is itself seen as a load). However, when observing the current and voltage waveforms, they are 90 degrees out of phase with each other.

When the system is setup for series resonance, the motor runs freely without any lugging from the presence of the capacitor. The induced voltage from the coil produces a distorted sine wave. Once the output is, again, shorted, this time the AC voltage across the coil increases substantially along with current through the coil (which again are at 90 degrees to each other), however, in this case, the motor slows down rather than speeding up. It is interesting to note that in the series case, the voltage and current waveforms look like almost perfect sine waves except for some steps in the top of the voltage waveform (I believe Bolt showed similar waveforms in one of his simulations).

After performing these tests, the following thoughts and questions come to mind:

1. It seems that the acceleration that occurs when in parallel resonance happens because the current waveform collapses as seen from the coil when the output is shorted, thus reducing the apparent current load on the system. However, in series, the current increases at resonance. In our case, the motor still slowed down despite the 90-degree phase shift between the voltage across the coil and the current through the coil.

2. (@ Bolt), in your posts, you definitely emphasized the importance of having the tank circuit operating in series resonance, with the current and voltage waveforms 90 degrees out of phase. I did observe a substantial increase in voltage and current once the circuit was shorted out at the resonant frequency, and from the points in the circuit that I measured, the voltage and current waveforms were 90 degrees out of phase with each other, yet the system still decelerated. One thing I want to ask is if there is a specific point in the circuit where the current needs to be measured? (I know in the circuit diagram you approved in this post here, a 1Ohm resistor was placed at the spot where the current was to be measured. This is the spot where I clamped the current probe). Is there something that I am still missing here?

3. For all the tests we have performed so far, the coils were wired in the series bucking configuration. I need to clarify one point here. Does the speedup effect (with coils in series resonance) require that the coils be in the series canceling configuration or should the coils be in the series adding mode if using a tuning capacitor?

4. If going the bifilar coil route, would one consider the coil to be in series or parallel resonance when tuning the system to the bifilar coils' natural resonant frequency?

Any help/advice is greatly appreciated as I want to make sure I have the correct understanding to properly tune the system.

- Jason O

Magluvin · « **Reply #3887 on:** July 01, 2011, 04:41:14 AM »

Hey JDO

I will venture to say the bifi capacitance is similar to parallel. ;]

The difference between series and parallel is that the capacitance is spread across the bifi coil as if it is parallel.

And since Romero says they were bifi, or lets say multifilar, and he and you show speed up, I feel confident in what I say. ;]

But if you are going to try a multifilar, highly recommended, I would love to see what you come up with.

Have you tried using both with the coils you show in the vids? Might be interesting.

Nice work. ;]

Mags

Magluvin · « **Reply #3888 on:** July 01, 2011, 04:49:17 AM »

hey Jay

What I wanted to say was,, have you tried both at the same time, parallel and series. ;]

Mags

Jdo300 · « **Reply #3889 on:** July 01, 2011, 06:54:26 AM »

Hi Magluvin,

I agree with you that if interpreting the distributed capacitance of the coil as parallel capacitance, then it must mean parallel resonance also.

BY the way, I just did another series of tests tonight with the coils connected in series adding rather than canceling and got much much better results when getting past the resonant frequency. I'm uploading a new video now and will post the link the morning once it finishes processing.

As for connecting series and parallel at the same time, I could try that though I don't have two 6 uF capacitors. I'll have to look through my stash and see what I've got.

Lastly, one of the experiments I plan to try tomorrow is to swap the drive and generator coils so I can see what the output looks like on low impedance output coils. More to come soon

.

- Jason O

Magluvin · « **Reply #3890 on:** July 01, 2011, 07:35:06 AM »

Hey Jay

Hmm, never thought to put the top and bottom coils in series. That would lower the freq of resonance. For some here, it may help. Maybe the rotors in some cases dont reach coil resonant speeds. maybe.

I dont have a Muller style setup yet. Money is shorter than it has been. I was moving my Fiero from 1 parking spot to the next and the throttle stuck, and I ran into 2 big square metal doors on the storage facility, that I gotta dish out $1100 for. AND my car, well, needs new front bumper, 2 fenders and my wheels are aiming outward. uggg.

Been working with a single bifi Ive had for some time, using a rotor driven by other coils. But im not hitting high enough rpms with just N pole mags on the rotor. i gota make a new rotor, as this one is set up for 16 mags alternating N S. And some other issues. But this weekend is 3 days and they are all mine. ;]

Yea, the series and parallel might be interesting as we might get the best of both worlds. Or maybe not, but its worth the try. ;]

Mags

baroutologos · « **Reply #3891 on:** July 01, 2011, 10:31:47 AM »

Quote

baroutologos,

Have you seen the 2 Thane videos posted here in the last couple pages? Are you familiar with Thane? IMO he is a top researcher and knows what he is doing. In the second video I posted it appears he is showing this to potential investors as he is talking about intellectual property rights and patents IIRC.
He explains and shows how a standard wound generator brings a motor to a complete stop when loaded. He then shows how his special wound generator actually speeds up when loaded and the more load the more speed and less motor lugging. His explanation appears to involve having higher voltage and lower current on the generator coils (and I assume some fine tuning and possible other factors).

e2matrix

Hey E2matrix,

of course i am familiar with Hein's work. In matter of fact, i start up my ou experimentation with Perepiteia setup.
Thane IMO, has stubled upon an oddity indeed. He has a coil past a rotor and when shorted rotor speeds up! Thats OU? Do not think, so far. I have tested the cocnept since it captured my imagination.

many hours of experimenting you are starting to realize a relationship between magnetic cogging, energy lost to that cogging, cogging "release" after having the coil shorted or just about any coil (accelarating or not), energy lost to shorted coil (due to internal resistance), how an added resistance (hence a load) limits the accelaration effect, and look also for relations of frequency - impedance - resistance.

I have mapped those figures according my understanding and have seen that there is a always a trade off upon this effect and no energy gain. I openly seek an experimenter here to post his experience that a shorted and accelarating coil will make a net possitive effect. No luck so far. Romero himself told that someone should demonstrate that effect. It would be a milestone. Yet, despite several accelarating setups, do not think anyone has a net energy gain. (mariuscivic have the most promising ?)

Anyway, back to Thane, i bet he has realized that fact by now and his countless experimentations hours but so far failed to come up with any reallife working device. (oil black ops?)

In terms of current, if you have followed my posts some pages ago, a shorted (and accelarating coil) creates a delayed current thanks to huge inductance to resistance ratio making effectively a phase swift (far less than a perfect 90 degrees due to relatively high resistance). This phase swift i have found so far that its not aiding (as it should?) rotor accelaration, rather than follows the general power factor rules.

Bottom line, my overall impression regarding rotor accelaration is that by enabling a coil to magnetically interact with rotor diminishes magnetic cogging or "friction". Of course i would be more happy to be wrong my friend.

rogla · « **Reply #3892 on:** July 01, 2011, 10:58:19 AM »

I would like to add following observations to my previous posting about the calculation of the phase angle between voltage and current.

The system can be designed in two ways:

1) High capacitance relative inductance (low resonance frequency)
Operating above resonance, phase angle decreases if speed decreases.

2) Low capacitance relative inductance (high resonance frequency)
Operating below resonance, phase angle increases if speed decreases.
This design can newer be a "run away" because when the speed increases to much, the phase angle will decrease and lower output (provided the resonance freq is not to high).

So, how do I wind a coil with as little capacitance as possible and as large inductance as possible? Anyone with good advice?

itsu · « **Reply #3893 on:** July 01, 2011, 11:06:22 AM »

Thanks for the responses all.

@ Xeno, i did try series resonance as well, but was a the "wrong" measuring point for the current.
I remember it did not had any effect which is strange, so need to redo that test also.
Remember that in parallel resonance, the impedance is (theoretical) infinite (like an open circuit) causing
max voltage and minimum current (this minimum current is what we want as that current causes drag (lenz)).

@ Duff, in my first video you can see that i had NO phase shift between the current pulses and the voltage when measuring the current "outside" the tank, which is what i expect in a parallel resonance circuit as Xc and Xl should cancel each other out, leaving us with the DC resistance of the coil only (no phase shift then).
I will retest and check the phase in both inside and outside the tank, both with and without the parallel cap.

@ jdo300, nice to see similar results, remember that in parallel resonance the impedance is (theoretically) infinite, so no current will/can run, therefor causing no drag (lenz).
In series resonance however, the impedance is at its lowest, causing maximum current (drag).
I too found out that with the cap in series, there is almost no impact seen (as if no cap was there), but as i was measuring the current on the wrong place i need to retest this.
I think you should go for the both generator coils in series, not series canceling.

Next steps besides the retesting is:
# create a generator coil pair with more windings (multi filar) each (HV coil) running in parallel resonance.
# find a way to "impedance match" this HV output and reduce the voltage to "match" the input voltage (transformer?)
# get a more stable drive circuit to "force" the RPM's in a fixed (resonating frequency) band as now under load/short
the RPM's increase to much forcing the circuit out of resonance (is that the reason of Romero's special hall sensor positions?)
# try to compensate the "running away" under load/short by adding a "normal" not resonating coil pair which introduce drag, but
along the way also generates extra energy (4 pairs in parallel resonance, 3 in normal?).
# try to understand why i still see 90 degrees phase shift while in resonance.

Regards Itsu

yssuraxu_697 · « **Reply #3894 on:** July 01, 2011, 11:08:26 AM »

Quote from: baroutologos on July 01, 2011, 10:31:47 AM

/.../ This phase swift i have found so far that its not aiding (as it should?) rotor accelaration, rather than follows the general power factor rules.

Bottom line, my overall impression regarding rotor accelaration is that by enabling a coil to magnetically interact with rotor diminishes magnetic cogging or "friction". Of course i would be more happy to be wrong my friend.

Have to agree, we need some sanity here. Guys reporting "acceleration under load" in RLC often miss the fact that cap-coil tank in resonance loads the motor the most! And if they connect something additional to form "cap in parallel" etc it usually gets detuned and thus "acceleration". Reference point should be speed w coil ends open! Just realizing that would skip additional 100 pages or so

There is no fish whatsoever in trying to go OU with just simple RLC!!! At best it is a way to get more out of gen with otherwise lousy output, but at underunity cost.

If anyone has system accelerating under load compared to coil(s) disconnected from everything - thats whole another story and would be very interesting to hear about it more

TEKTRON · « **Reply #3895 on:** July 01, 2011, 11:19:59 AM »

Quote from: tanakat on June 30, 2011, 05:53:56 PM

Last one from ZFossil :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoXZHdiMCKE

@Zerofossilfuel: LOL "At 88 MPH your gonna see some serious $hit!"
Z, If you have built your rig as per Romero at 200mm diam...20mm mags..4mm from edge..4875rpm=114.2mph edge speed! Centerline of mags 98.2 mph! You're 10.2 mph over your speed objective! LOL. if you want 88 mph edge speed..you want 3757rpm..centerline 88 mph of magnets, you want 4368 rpm.
SORRY. This was just for $hitz and giggles. John

PS. (Very important...) DO NOT FORGET THE 25uf FLUX CAPACITORS

MasterPlaster · « **Reply #3896 on:** July 01, 2011, 12:33:22 PM »

A fantastic book on magnetism ( hard core )

http://ia700502.us.archive.org/1/items/mathematicalphys00peir/mathematicalphys00peir.pdf see section XIX starting from page 323

THE EFFECTS OF SUDDEN CHANGES IN THE INDUCTANCES
OF ELECTRIC CIRCUITS AS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE ABSENCE
OF MAGNETIC LAG AND OF THE VON WALTENHOFEN
PHENOMENON IN FINELY DIVIDED CORES. CERTAIN
MECHANICAL ANALOGIES OF THE ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS

What is he talking about? Absence of magnetic lag?

Nonlinear electromagnetic systems:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ezITSwv0nVwC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=magnetic+lag&source=bl&ots=B-CV5XD-MH&sig=y8TdoAVsQDXhnSIZ4ZyIcubVC-w&hl=en&ei=NqANToi6N8qAhQf6p4nEDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAjgK

neptune · « **Reply #3897 on:** July 01, 2011, 05:28:16 PM »

I did a small experiment today involving bifilar windings . Someone else posted a link to a website about this . I made 3 electromagnets using 3 similar iron cores . Each magnet used the same length of wire . One was wound normally , one bifilar and one quadrifilar .The same power supply was used to test each electromagnet in turn . The strength of each was tested by seeing how many small nails it would lift . The results were as follows .
Normall wind- 4nails .
Bifilar wound - 12 nails .
Quadrifilar ,12 nails .
Note that each electromagnet had the same core and the same Amp-turns .I was surprised that quadrifilar was no better than bifilar . This experiment seems ridiculous , but you MUST do it yourself . The implication is that by using a bifilar motor coil , you could create the same input torque for a much lower electrical input , maybe as low as one third . Got to be worth a try? But do the simple experiment first .

i_ron · « **Reply #3898 on:** July 01, 2011, 05:42:54 PM »

Quote from: baroutologos on July 01, 2011, 10:31:47 AM

I have mapped those figures according my understanding and have seen that there is a always a trade off upon this effect and no energy gain. I openly seek an experimenter here to post his experience that a shorted and accelarating coil will make a net possitive effect. No luck so far. Romero himself told that someone should demonstrate that effect. It would be a milestone. Yet, despite several accelarating setups, do not think anyone has a net energy gain.

I can confirm your results exactly.

I joined Thane at about the time gotoluc was winding the multi strand coils and as you know, built several rotors for Thane. I could never get him to establish a base line measurement which showed that all coil shorting was doing was to reduce core drag. Shorting a coil collapses the flux field, pure and simple. Ergo, reduced drag can be the cause of acceleration. Thane has grown smarter over the years, moved away from having the flux flow down the broom handle across the table and into the motor (humor) but you must remember he thought and based all his theories at one time on peak voltage at TDC. And refused to budge from this for the longest time, even after I posted a single magnet coil/core scope shot showing the resultant sine wave in such a situation. I have not followed his latest work so have no explanation for his "self runner" vid etc.

Ron

nul-points · « **Reply #3899 on:** July 01, 2011, 05:44:33 PM »

Quote from: neptune on July 01, 2011, 05:28:16 PM

I did a small experiment today involving bifilar windings . Someone else posted a link to a website about this . I made 3 electromagnets using 3 similar iron cores . Each magnet used the same length of wire . One was wound normally , one bifilar and one quadrifilar
[...]

thanks, neptune - interesting

approx how many layers & how many turns per layer on the normal e/m?

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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo (Read 4348844 times)

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