Since there seems to be a "high level discussion" instead of "building motors" I want to ask a question about the high back electromotive force or counter electromotive force I see in my rig (see for instance http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/electricmotors.html#back or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-electromotive_force):

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Back electromotive force is a voltage that occurs in electric motors where there is relative motion between the armature of the motor and the external magnetic field.
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I built the rig as shown in the photo using coils from relays having a rather high DC resistance of 265 Ohms. (I am still in the phase of studying basic principles instead of building an exact replication of Romeos's motor).

When I drive the motor in a "pulse fashion" (e.g. with circuit as used in Romero's set up or a similar circuit) I observe a very high back-emf which is four to five times higher than the supply voltage (e.g. with a 10 Volt supply I measure up to 50 Volt back-emf over a pair of coils).

I wounder whether we should try to feed this back-emf back into the power supply (accumulator or capacitor) in order to get a self runner? No "generator coil pairs", just "drive coil pairs" the back-emf of which is "fed back"?

I recall vaguely that I saw some "invention" on YouTube that did this with a "piston like rig" where a coil was moving towards and away from a strong permanent magnet (the coil moved like the piston in a steam engine). But there are other "turning motors" where a recovery of the back-emf is claimed to "enhance their efficiency". But that would be something like a Bedini-motor?

Greetings, Conrad

author=Tudi link=topic=3842.msg293388#msg293388 date=1309427536]
Images show more then 100 words.
Tried to show what a coil ringing is and how important it is to be in resonance with your RPM.
ringing_and_induction.jpg

Wrong in ZPE systems this decay becomes a gain and is exactly inverse of entropy. So this chart needs reversing.

- upper wave is your coil (+ other components) that WANT to resonate at specific frequency
- lower wave is how your SPECIFIC RPM will try to induce voltage in your coil

Resonance its not how one understands  it to be those that followed SM and the TPU he said quote "its a type of resonance but it depends on your understanding of what resonance actually is when applied in this application" What he means is TOTAL REACTIVE resonance.


If you do not match up the 2 waves then they will try to cancel out each other. If you match the 2 waves perfectly then they will add up. You could use a diode to just pinch off some part of the wave and leave some ringing in the coil also. Some say that if electron movement have some inertia then leaving some ringing might be more beneficial then extracting it all.

There is no ringing in your understanding as ringing is decay in entropy. We are dealing with longitudinal Tensor moment.

standing_wave.jpg
- This is about "bolt theory". Where you have 2 waves that should cancel each other out as sum.

Not my theory from people that know how to build ZPE devices. But its my interpretation.

Only the current is cancelled out by forcing it out of phase.

 BUT as information there is a lot of things going on and they are not NULL !.

This is true when the voltage and current is shifted 90 degrees there is a static wave tensor which interfaces to the ambient.

 With this technique in theory you can avoid generating Lenz

Correct as there is NO in phase current.

 BUT at the output with the correct approach to separate the 2 waves and use them as you wish. I hope this image helps some people imagine a how a different out of the box approach could be made. Pls note that this is not exactly how ZPE was explained in some of the documents.

Hi Mags,

Thane's coils are a single strand of well over 1000 turns each. He winds them by hand and in a random order (not making the turns tight one next to each other) which give the coil air space. This adds capacitance.

Luc

I have mentioned Thane many times.  This is a different approach to Romero. Thane HV coil has a large inductance L and  inherent capacitance C and coil resistance R. As his motor speed increases the phase becomes skewed till it reaches a point where it has become reactive and the inductance matches the capacitance of the coil versus the frequency of the pulses eventually phase is 90 degrees shifted between the volts and amps induced from the magnet. Now there is no lenz! Motor gets faster in fact you get a ZPE hysteresis  latching where he has to turn down the i/p drive power very very low to maintain a sensible speed till a point it SNAPS out of hysteresis and then effect dies. Now requires a lot of i/p motor power to get the RPM back up as phase has become locked near zero and lenz is back.  BUT very important aspect Thane uses  MOT to down convert voltage to 12v and this acts as impedance matching to keep high impedance as a load converts to low impedance lamp load alike 1000 ohm to 50 ohm RF transformer.

If you can not get Romero coils to work just wind a 2000 turn HV coil and you get the same effect.

Last one from ZFossil :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoXZHdiMCKE

(delete if already posted, I don't think so).

Cheers

here is the vid from Zeropoint132(corrected from 321 ;])

of the self running sphere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwBtBEaZ7B4

And the multifilar tests..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbFqVh7GdGk


At lunch and wide awakee.  ;]

Mags

Hey Dave

Thanks. Its gunna be a busy busy weekend.  ;]

Thanks Luc.   ;]

Im just full of energy today, dunno why.  ;]   Tonight im going to wrap 20 wires around me and see what output I get.  lol  ;]

Ok  back to worky   be back later.

Magfi   ;]

Hi Coradelelecktro

depends on cap uf value hwo many volts you will have in it from the backemf/recoil of the motor/drive coils - in say 5uf cap I will get near instanlty 200V from 12V input to my drieve coils and wait awhile and it climbs and climbs up too 300V or higher - those recoil spikes strech way off scope...
go with say 2000uf for you collector/recovery cap then at 12V you might only get instantly 15V or 20V somethign like that....
also if it lurches draw of motor up a bit when it fills cap is somethign to consider - you can only go with "so big" of a cap, and it will lurch draw up...smaller sizes dont do anything so find best cap size...

alternative is to "switch-out" backemf/recoil...put a swtihc on the AC leg of a FWBR or one side of single diode if you want, then you time the switch to turn ON during the period when the recoil spikes shoot out backwards - whihc would be at motor-coil's input switch turn-off...this makes thingks way different  - now "active" rather than "static" recovery....sometimes I can get dramatic speed-up of motor when backemf comes out doing a swtihc out circuit with the backemf.
Look for about a 5 degree delay to the backemf/recoil switch as compared to the motor coil swithcing itself...probalby a bit of "overlap" too - ther will be sweet spot according to rpms and load etc... its very precise when you do a swtich-out of backemf to get a speed up.

check out powering your motor coils with mosfets that are hooked bidirectional in that their gates and source leads connect and the swtihcing happens between the two drains now.
Put FWBR AC legs across the tow drains and DC into cap and you will get huge backemf power happenieng....mosfets only go "one way" you might be missing half of the power to be had.

Big thing about the bakcemf/recoil inot caps, is when you hit load with it you better have that cap DISCONNECTED from the coils they are collecing from or it all backs up makes big amps surge to the input, but if it is disconnected you get nothing at all and output to load is invisible to input.

Can anyone tell me the best glue to use for coils of Litz wire?   I was thinking of using my hot glue gun but remembered that heat may melt the coating on the wire, although not as hot as soldering iron?  Hot glue is fast but not sure it will even hold the wires.      Or is it best to just use tape? 

Thanks

Bill

Hi Bill

90 degrees C is the max I have found for hot glue guns

Polyurethane varnish is what I have used to make permanent coils. Tape is ok for temporary.