I haven't read this entire thread, but does anyone have any ideas on how to close the loop MECHANICALLY for proof of concept?

Closing the loop mechanically would not be what we are looking for - it seems it is not easy task or maybe impossible. Since you are not familiar with the whole discussion, I will recommend you to read this paper where author has nicely described what were the obstacles to close the loop in that way...

Jovan Marjanovic - Mechanical Feedback Loop Problems and Possible Solutions for the Two-Stage Oscillator of Veljko Milkovic
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Jovan_Marjanovic_Mechanical_Feedback_Loop.pdf

http://naboo.ws.googlepages.com/thedualhydraulicoscillator

http://naboo.ws.googlepages.com/2-stagehydraulicoscillator1.jpg/2-stagehydraulicoscillator1-full;init:.jpg

Merg, as I told Techstuf, I believe I have found an extremely simple and efficient way to close the loop mechanically, but you have to be able to open your mind a bit for new versions of the classical design.


Primarily, I want to do it with water! Yes that's right, or of course it could be oil, as long as it is thin.
I am using the same forces as in the pendulum: Input power goes into angular acceleration, while output power comes from the centrifugal force it creates. In this setup the centrifugally pressurized water is used to directly accelerate the rotor by functioning as jets. This will point in opposite direction of the rotation, and thus push it faster.  The whole idea really came to me when I was reading a post on the energetic forum by Ted Evert, so it is primarily his design.

Start power can either by supplied by rotating it around fast enough by a motor, or if it is a small prototype, the power of water-pressure should be enough.

Julian

This idea is really interesting I'll tell you that

But first of all (and I got the same question from Ted Evert btw) it is in every way related to the 2-stage oscillator. What is the biggest characteristic of the 2-stage oscillator? The more you load it, the less you drain its stored kinetic energy. If there is no load what-so-ever it will loose all the energy instantly, try to imagine that with pendulum and you'll see. Also if there is infinite resistance (full load) then there will be no loss what-so-ever (if we look away from minor friction and such).

Now that same thing will happen with the 2-stage hydraulic oscillator 
If no water is let out at all, it will be just as if there was no movement of the pendulum pivot at all, and thus only minor losses. If you allow more and more water out however, there will be more water sucked in which needs to be angularly accelerated, and this is what drains its kinetic energy.
And again it is only displacement and not force that drains it, so you could say that there is two separate systems which by changing both's parameters are powering and draining each other.

But the "secret" is that it is done in the 2-stage fashion, which opens for the possibility of changing the amount of work needed to drive one system, which then indirectly powers the second one.


About the pumping. Since this will be spinning, or when it eventually is rotated around, centrifugal force will both force the water out at its periphery, and because this water is forced out a huge under-pressure will be created in the center, and this will suck water with great power, depending of the speed of course.

Also one last thing. It is not the speed against its surrounding environment which is important to the water jets, but only their relative speed against the speed of the rotating rotor. Even if it may seem slow from our perspective it will have great speed away from the rotor 


But best of all the whole thing is very easy to put together, and epoxy is great because it is superhuman strong, but doesn't require to be welded (and could thus rust).

Julian

Hmm, greater diameter should give more centrifugal force, and then again also less, you should check wikipedia's article on centripetal force: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal_force
And height will just increase the total volume of water accelerated.

Well I can't say for certain all the other stuff about jet's, but what I find logical is that even if the rotation of the rotor is huge, and that the resulting pressure therefore pushes out water with great strength, and even if it seems slow to us, it should aid the rotors speed and accelerate it.

It is only from our perspective that the water seem relative slow, but not for the rotor.
So centrifugally pressurized water should be able to give a positive extra spin on the rotor, and because it doesn't drain the rotor directly by doing so, it ends up (like the milkovic pendulum) giving more work away than what was needed to supply it (from our part that is).

Julian

Why do people make videos with music like that?  Techno is the most unmanly music haha.

Mechanical energy is going to become extinct. do you want to hang around an area that is going to be wiped out?

No moving parts!

Jerry

Jerry, I know what you're talking about, but that is far into the future.
Just think about this, how is an electric saw supposed to cut wood if the it cannot move?
Also what about hydraulic pressing? Point is as long as we need to move things physically we need motors that can do it, be it electrical or not.

Cars for example is one of those things that could eventually go over into solid state, when the technology is there. The only thing moving would then only be the car itself , while everything inside was controlled by some kind of field.


But there is also something else you should be aware of; there exists no real solid state system anywhere! What creates electricity and magnetism? Motion of nano-sized particles.
Spin is the thing    It makes every structure and reaction we know of stable, but it will never be solid state.

Julian

Ah okey. Well they can always be made more durable and stronger. When I think about it, a hydro electric dam would probably be a lot more powerful if it used tesla turbine instead of the normal turbine. Wear and tear should be practically eliminated, efficiency should be better and practically all of the kinetic energy stored in the water should be possible to be converted. But were you maybe talking about something different when you mentioned macro mechanics?

Julian

IMPORTANT ADDITION ON MILKOVIC'S WEB-SITE:

http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/OscilacijeEng.html

Energy Measuring

It is important to note that we are not supporting over unity claim for the oscillator where its pendulum was initially raised to some height and then left to swing until it stops.

Our idea is that after initial raising of a pendulum it is necessary to keep adding a little energy to a pendulum to keep it swinging. Because two stage oscillator is supposed to be used for long period of the time, energy spent for initial raising can be disregarded. The same logic is for Diesel engines where it is necessary for them to achieve working temperature before measuring its efficiency. Nobody would also include energy spent for magnetization of permanent magnets in an electric motor for calculation of efficiency ratio of his electric motor.

It is necessary to measure small energy continuously added to maintain pendulum swinging. Note also that output force on the lever side is variable and change from zero to a maximum defined by its mass. The reason for it is variable force of the pendulum which exert pulling the lever on opposite side. This makes mathematics complex and precise tools for measuring variable force are necessary for calculation of efficiency ratio of a two stage oscillator.

The well known fact is that pendulum with fixed pivot point can keep swinging for several hours. Two-stage oscillator has movable pivot point. It moves in rhythm of the lever which frequency is double higher than frequency of the pendulum. The movement of the pivot point, or better to say its acceleration, keeps spending energy of the pendulum which decelerates its swinging fast. Friction in pendulum pivot point is very small in comparison with losses due to movement and acceleration of the pivot point and can be disregarded. Oscillators with small and harmonic movement of the pivot point have better performances and that is the reason why special attention should be given to that problem.