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Author Topic: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work  (Read 72078 times)

Offline petersone

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2010, 11:50:58 PM »
Hi EM
I was waiting until someone mentioned that,I didn't like to say anything,for me Butch can do no wrong,but,normal Lenz's law applies,as I see it.
peter

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Offline LarryC

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2010, 12:30:52 AM »
[A author=EMdevices link=topic=8852.msg234740#msg234740 date=1269636362]
The concept presented here runs into trouble when a coil is placed and loaded on one or both arms of the "switcher".  When that happens, the magnetic path of these legs has changed it's apparent AC reluctance and the flux will not prefer to "flow" that way, once that happens the magnetic fields/flux  configures itself such that the rotor will experience a torque, and if you fight that torque in order to to rotate the rotor, you're imputing energy into the system.

[/quote]

So EM, I guess you didn't see the video where the input amps drops when the output is shorted.
 http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=LaFonteGroup#p/u/10/AXmcsDUyzeU

Regards, Larry

Offline 4Tesla

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2010, 12:42:41 AM »
I have to say it is a very cool discovery, but I agree with EM that I don't see how it can be used to get OU.

4Tesla

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2010, 12:42:41 AM »
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Offline petersone

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2010, 12:55:39 AM »
Hi 4Tesla
As I said,normal Lenz's law applies,as I see it,the amp draw when the coils are shorted needs to be compaired with the amp draw of the motor when it is free running,nothing on the shaft.It could be just canceling the iron loses,as I have found myself,and got excited over nothing!!Butch is still a hero.
peter

Butch LaFonte

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From Butch, there is no Lenz reaction on the rotor
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2010, 05:42:24 PM »
[A author=EMdevices link=topic=8852.msg234740#msg234740 date=1269636362]
A magnet or electromagnet can be turned ON AND OFF with pretty much no NET energy consumption.
However, if you try and extract energy from this changing magnetic field you will inevitably see it reflected on the input.
The concept presented here runs into trouble when a coil is placed and loaded on one or both arms of the "switcher".  When that happens, the magnetic path of these legs has changed it's apparent AC reluctance and the flux will not prefer to "flow" that way, once that happens the magnetic fields/flux  configures itself such that the rotor will experience a torque, and if you fight that torque in order to to rotate the rotor, you're imputing energy into the system.
The software used to simulate the "switcher" should be used to simulate the WHOLE problem including the output coils under a load, and then it will become apparent why it is unfortunately NOT overunity.
So remember, a MAGNETOSTATIC simulation will only get you excited and then into trouble and wasted time when you try and extrapolate the results to a dynamic problem.
EM
[/quote]
We attempted to create a torque on the rotor to simulate a lenz reaction or so called motor action. We did this by using an external DC power supply to run large amp rates through the coils in an attempt to get the generator to operate as a motor. The rotor was unaffected by the coils magnetic field and could be rotated with ease and with no cogging. It was so interesting to see the device unable to be operated as a motor, but when the rotor was rotated it operates as a generator. I defy you to find a generator that you can run current through the coils and not get a reaction to the coils magnetic field by the rotor. The air gap in this design remains constant and there is no torque effect on the rotor, but the rotation of the rotor causes a complete reversal of the magnetic field every rotation. Run current through this generator's coils and try to run it like a motor and you will get nothing, but run it light a generator by turning the rotor and you will get electrocuted.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

From Butch, there is no Lenz reaction on the rotor
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2010, 05:42:24 PM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2010, 06:47:42 PM »
Regarding your last video (LoadTest2.mov ) the fact that the magnets are so close to the shaft or inside the shaft itself gives this idea great potential simply because of minimal counter leverage under drag. The further the magnet would be from the shaft, the greater leverage you would have to counter under a drag condition. Now, with the magnet in the shaft, the drag would have to be soooo strong to stop the motor. So that is a very good idea.

About the amperage drop, I would have to say that the drop was really minimal compared to the 7 amps draw. Those DC motors are amp hogs to start with.

i did not see your coils in the video If you have one or more output coils, I recommend you find the positive output lead of each and put a diode on each coil, then put them all in parallel. But do not put them all in parallel, then on only one diode. You need to make sure each coil is not influenced by the others.

Bruce, I had the same idea to embed magnets in an alternator rotor on each one of the pie extensions that carry the north and south fields coming from the center rotor field coil. Also to modify the stator coils by cutting out the bridge rectifier and bringing out each stator coil individually, then dioding each one before they are paralleled.

Very good work and always good to see and learn from your videos. Thanks.

Online Paul-R

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2010, 01:45:30 PM »
I fully understand that this type of setup could never be looked at as a motor. (Who in looking at this could even think that way?)
Nobody.

We all see it as PART of a motor. Take the Yasunori Takahashi spiral motor, for instance. The first magents do a good job repelling and thereby give the shaft torque. But when the rotor comes round again, these first magnets need to be switched off to let the rotor fly past, and then switched on again to let them repel.

Applied to the correct design for the Adams motor (viz Patrick's Chapter 2), the result stands to be even more amazing. As the rotor magent is attracted to the stator core, work is made available; then instead of neutralising the stator core as the rotor magnet cruises past, it may instead be"switched off" with butch's device. (The Adams motor will need a bit of a re-design).

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2010, 01:45:30 PM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2010, 05:20:04 PM »
The main hold-back will be that of available RPM.

Let's say the shaft was 1.5 inches diameter. That would give a radius of .75 inches. At 3600 RPM, compare the speed of travel on the surface of the shaft, to the speed of a standard rotor of 4 inches, or 6 inches, or 8 inches. The larger the diameter of the turning rotor, the more speed you will have at the edge where the magnet is at the same working RPM.

But if there is any drag, it will be multiplied proportionally to the wider diameter rotor. So there is a very good give with this idea, but the take will be with the RPM. There is no other variable but RPM. Well there is another variable to play with. Shaft length. You would need a shaft loaded with magnets and I would say a good 1-2 feet long given at 3600 rpm the speed of the magnet on the outer coils will be relatively slow.

Offline mscoffman

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2010, 06:12:27 PM »

...

Butch, I am not trying to take anything away from your application, but
I have (Yesterday) learned that this is actually common knowledge in
the field of gauge clamps and even more in magnetic hold-down tables.
(If you can believe it, I told this to a manufacturer of the tables and he
quickly modified one to allow full rotation of the "Switch" handle.  It was
easy for him, as he makes them.  Just throwing ANYTHING on the table
makes no difference to the force required to turn the handle, but just
putting a coil on it with a open core touching on both sides does put
out a lot more current than I thought possible.  He was amazed too.)
...


Excellent input Loner.

Oh...so he's just getting around to trying this now huh?...Oh my electric bill.
What's taking Butch so long to test this.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2010, 06:12:27 PM »
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Offline 4Tesla

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Re: From Butch, there is no Lenz reaction on the rotor
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2010, 09:11:09 PM »
We attempted to create a torque on the rotor to simulate a lenz reaction or so called motor action. We did this by using an external DC power supply to run large amp rates through the coils in an attempt to get the generator to operate as a motor. The rotor was unaffected by the coils magnetic field and could be rotated with ease and with no cogging. It was so interesting to see the device unable to be operated as a motor, but when the rotor was rotated it operates as a generator. I defy you to find a generator that you can run current through the coils and not get a reaction to the coils magnetic field by the rotor. The air gap in this design remains constant and there is no torque effect on the rotor, but the rotation of the rotor causes a complete reversal of the magnetic field every rotation. Run current through this generator's coils and try to run it like a motor and you will get nothing, but run it light a generator by turning the rotor and you will get electrocuted.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

Hi Butch,

So this is a very efficient generator, that is so efficient that it may be able to achieve OU by using a small motor to run it?  Do you have a self runner?

4Tesla

Offline synchro1

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Frictionless rotor
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2010, 10:21:43 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Lidmotor#p/u/2/Otz-C-q_RwQ

@Butch,

            Here's a hyperlink to Lidmotor's ¨Mag Lev Bobin Motor¨; Levitating Reed Switch Pulse Motor. The motor consists merely of a Reed switch in series between the tiny copper wire air core coil and the double A battery. His unit has a power potentiometer in series as well. Simple as pie! Take notice of the levitation axle.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 04:11:50 AM by hartiberlin »

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Frictionless rotor
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2010, 10:21:43 PM »
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Offline LarryC

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2010, 11:27:24 PM »
The following scope shot is the test of the toroid, transformer design shown in reply #53. A 100 Ohm resistor is placed across the primary coil (10 Ohms). The rpm is 2,997 and the input wattage to the AC induction motor is 26. With just the rotor along, the input wattage is 20.

The trace is a little weird and could be due to the fact that the magnets are not centered on the toroid, only about 65 percent as the rotor is larger than the toroid. Also, the magnets should be larger as they do not cover 50 percent of the arc, only about 30 percent. I have a smaller rotor on order so that will improve.

As Butch said there is insignificant clogging and no effect on the input wattage or rpm when the load is open or closed. Lenz is in the system, but the rotor does not see it.

I see this as an improvement over Flynn's PPMT generator as it requires input to the coils to switch the flux flow.

The second picture shows magnets for a wind turbine. These plus Lafonte Group switcher technique, but using the design that I showed in reply #53 ;D

Regards, Larry   

Online gyulasun

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #87 on: March 29, 2010, 12:08:05 AM »
Hi Larry,

Thank you for this, very very interesting.

Could you measure the self inductance of your output coil and based on that could you connect a series capacitor of the same reactance the coil has at the above loaded RPM?  This cap would make the waveform much more sinusoidal, thus true effective value of the AC output could be had.

Alternatively, would you use a full wave bridge (if you agree) and then drive a load, the loss of the FWBR could be counted in.

What if you would use a 10 Ohm load resistor instead of the 100? It would be good match to the coil, together with a series  resonating capacitor at the loaded RPM?

Thanks and sorry for the several wishes...

Gyula

PS: IF the inductance of the coil changes as the rotor moves you could use an averaged L value of course.

Offline LarryC

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #88 on: March 29, 2010, 02:21:38 AM »
Could you measure the self inductance of your output coil and based on that could you connect a series capacitor of the same reactance the coil has at the above loaded RPM?  This cap would make the waveform much more sinusoidal, thus true effective value of the AC output could be had.

Alternatively, would you use a full wave bridge (if you agree) and then drive a load, the loss of the FWBR could be counted in.

What if you would use a 10 Ohm load resistor instead of the 100? It would be good match to the coil, together with a series  resonating capacitor at the loaded RPM?

PS: IF the inductance of the coil changes as the rotor moves you could use an averaged L value of course.

No inductance meter. Did do the FWBR test, and it showed steady voltage close to the V rms shown by the scope. About 1.5V lower due to diode loss. 

Really liked the 10 Ohm resistor test.

In the first pic you can see that with a Vmax of 2.40 and Vmin of 2.36 gave a Vrms of 1.55. This is a high percentage for rms. In my other test with the 100 Ohm resistor the rms was around 8 with a Vmax of 20 and Vmin of 20.

In the second pic you can see the full wave form showing the voltage staying high and low for a much longer period of time.

Regards, Larry   

Butch LaFonte

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