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Author Topic: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work  (Read 72075 times)

Offline penno64

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2010, 10:44:25 PM »
Hi Paul,

From those extra pics and videos, can you possibly explain what is the importance of the 7 or so amps coming back slightly to 6.9?? something. (I viewed these early this year as well).

The final avi, showing 220 ac with the thumbs up as well. I am obviously missing the point.

Regards, Penno

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Offline Paul-R

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2010, 12:52:38 AM »
I think it could work as a motor with commutator and brushes or optical and such to cause ac to the coils in sync with the rotor...
As a second invention, anythng is possibe but Butch is adamant:
"The switcher is a AC generator not a motor. The only moving
part is the rotor magnet and it has a constant air gap. They
are going in the wrong direction".

"When a load was put on the generator coils by closing the circuit of the coils, the current going through the drive motor went down instead of up. That is just the opposite of what it does with a conventional generator. The greater the load on a conventional generator the greater the amp draw on the drive motor. We were shocked to see the drive motor amps go down. We were hoping that at best they would just stay the same.
The 220 AC was just a test to see the output voltage of the generator. We were pleased to see it so high."

Offline X00013

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2010, 01:01:30 AM »
When bare naked mags are used with ceramic structure yadyada i can only

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2010, 01:01:30 AM »
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Offline Paul-R

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2010, 01:18:22 AM »
Hi Paul,

From those extra pics and videos, can you possibly explain what is the importance of the 7 or so amps coming back slightly to 6.9?? something. (I viewed these early this year as well).

The final avi, showing 220 ac with the thumbs up as well. I am obviously missing the point.

Regards, Penno
The point is that when a load was applied, you would expect
the current to increase. It didn't. It went down instead.

Butch said: "It dropped from 7 to 6.9 amps. It should have gone up,
but it went down. That's never been see before with a generator drive motor".

Offline penno64

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2010, 09:17:11 AM »
Hi Paul,

Thanks for that.

I have an idea in mind that I would like to test for a magnet only motor using Butch's switcher. I am still uncertain whether the first ring with the slits is simply a metal ring or as someone earlier mentioned, it was a ferrite toroid core.


Kind Regards,  Pennno
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 08:31:51 PM by penno64 »

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2010, 09:17:11 AM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2010, 04:47:12 PM »

@Penno,

Butch Lafont seems a very reasonable fellow, So maybe just e-mail and ask.
I say it is ferrite because you can't create Lenz eddy loss currents in the
appropriate ferrite. In the arms of device, you would not need those iron
layers with ferrite, because each particle is electrically insulated from
it's neighbors. That means no lenz loss current in any flux direction.

You can use this BLF concept to create more efficient motors, it is just that
they would probably require electronics controls and some of their total
flux path would have to be devoted to running themselves. So economics
would be a problem. A motor can't buffer energy when it's lightly loaded
to play it out when it's heavily loaded (much) without additional externals.
Energy saved would have to be in input cycles skipped. - Having the drive
coils turned completely off during various AC input cycles would work.

Very large generators would be a problem, because once they are synchronized
to the utility grid, they switch between running as motor or generators
based on how much thermal energy is gated into their turbines. So utilities
"overdrive" them - overrun their rotors - to send out power. This is called an
AC synchronous alternator. With this the BLF solution one would halve their
output and have them run without any input.  8)

:S:MarkSCoffman


Offline TechStuf

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2010, 08:59:55 PM »

Howard Johnson's 90 degree principle is not far from a working solution.  Although it proved to be of marginal output, it was quite close to overcoming the problem.  One may build a rudimentary arrangement similar to Johnson's and see for one's self, quite readily, that there are many field changes with astonishingly little friction in the system.

It is my guess that any system with magnets in such close proximity, that can be made to turn with such little resistance, is ripe for copious energy production with a little creativity in coil shape and placement. 

Johnson was, perhaps, so focused on getting his PM system to turn of itself, that he may have underappreciated the fact that it turned so freely at all....


This same condition exists in many of his would be succesors. 


Why seek to 'turn magnets off'.  The stronger the better.



Blessings in Christ Yeshua

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2010, 08:59:55 PM »
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Offline penno64

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2010, 08:16:17 AM »
Hi all,

Well bugger me -

I walk into the Fitting & Machining section of the college I teach at and begin to describe the magnet switch I wish to replicate, hoping to have a student or someone bore the 19mm hole needed to house the neo magnet - the store man looks at me and says, we have those here already.

He proceeds to show me a MAGNET BASE as used in the trade to lock down work pieces or hold precision gauges while marking or while using the lathes.

He was even kind enough to give me an old one that had the post broken off.

Sure enough, turn the knob, and the base grips with a very strong force. return the knob to off and it releases with ease.

I must admit, it takes a bit of effort to turn the knob the 90 degress from off to on, though it easily springs back to the off position. This appears more force than Butch is using to turn his switch.

I am keen to pull this unit apart and see just how it is working.

Anyway, I will get the shaft I have drilled and continue with a replica of Butch's unit, cause I want to try the switch to power a magnet only motor.

Kind Regards, Penno


Offline Paul-R

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2010, 10:33:09 AM »
I must admit, it takes a bit of effort to turn the knob the 90 degress from off to on.
I've heard of these devices.

This could be poor mass production machining. Try taking it to
bits, clean up the mating surfaces with emery cloth, and put it
back together with light machine oil.

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2010, 10:33:09 AM »
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Offline penno64

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2010, 12:37:00 PM »
Hi guys,

I haven't had a chance to pull the MAGNETBASE apart, but I can tell you that what I was going to try was on my rotor, place just washers or blocks of metal and drive Butch's switcher with a cam. No having enought time to check this out tonight, I simply placed this BASE next to my rotor with 19x28mm neo and with a very small movement of the dial, I was able to manually get the rotor to turn.

What caught my eye with Butch's design was, as soon as you moved the slotted ring just a few degress, the magnet would attract. That is what I was hoping to setup.

Anyway, this gives me hope, and I will post a pic soon.

Kind Regards, Penno

Offline mscoffman

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2010, 01:34:42 PM »
Hi all,

...
He proceeds to show me a MAGNET BASE as used in the trade to lock down work pieces or hold precision gauges while marking or while using the lathes.
...

Regards, Penno

My father had one of these device in his workshop...I estimate they
were first used during WWII when folks needed machining done, asap.

And yes, the knob was somewhat hard to turn. But if we use
blf's idea...we would insert a ferrite ferrule inside where the knob is
and use a smaller magnet. This should eliminate the back force
and make it easier...The ferrite ferrule wouldn't turn with the magnet,
plus it would be sized using a magnetic simulator software to create
the "lighthouse" effect of field lines when it is turned. The backforce
is then stress inside the ferrite, and not felt by the knob. I guess I'm
forgetting the small gaps. Neo magnets can approach 1.0T Tesla in
strength. Even if the magnetic field disrupted the ferrite eventually
in this application it should be ok.

Anyhow that would be an interesting first test.

:S:MarkSCoffman

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2010, 01:34:42 PM »
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Offline Paul-R

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2010, 02:29:18 PM »
Here's a new variant from Butch's stable. It is a two magnet version:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LaFonteGroup

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2010, 08:30:51 PM »
This is really a great new design.
I guess it will be a winner
and it is a real good dragless generator.

Looking forward to see it realized in real hardware.
Don´t build it too small, so the magnetic losses
and hysteresis losses will not kill all the output.

Maybe one could use an old bigger motor
to modify it and see, how it works then ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline mscoffman

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Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2010, 09:51:00 PM »
But look at this one; This *is* real hardware.

http://www.youtube.com/user/LaFonteGroup#p/u/1/LNoVe4U9Bj8

This is by far easier to turn then previous magnetic
machining mounts. I detect a conspiracy. They
would of had to have known about this! This is
the apparent beginnings of a true back emf free
generator-alternator.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Butch LaFonte

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Re: To Stefan from Butch
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2010, 03:17:24 AM »
Quote
This is really a great new design.
I guess it will be a winner
and it is a real good dragless generator.

Looking forward to see it realized in real hardware.
Don´t build it too small, so the magnetic losses
and hysteresis losses will not kill all the output.

Maybe one could use an old bigger motor
to modify it and see, how it works then ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan,
The most amazing thing about this machine is that you can power the coils up with an external power supply and run large amp rates through them and the magnetic field that developes in the stator does not effect the rotor with respect to cogging. It turns as though there were no power be supplied to the coils. We used this method of testing early on to make sure that no motor action could effect the rotor during operation.
Mark is building the 8 magnet rotor (4 stacks of 2 magnets) at this time. We are looking for soft Ferrite powder for the stator, but having a very hard time finding it.
We have to have near zero eddy current in the stator to assure self running.
Regards,
Butch
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 06:11:52 AM by hartiberlin »

 

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