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### Author Topic: TD replications  (Read 147610 times)

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #270 on: February 27, 2020, 11:06:09 AM »
By overunity i mean continuous overunity. Like when a magnet enters a magnetic field of another magnet by speed with no initial force, and then leaves the magnetic field with increased speed. At that all these conditions have to be met. Like when it enters into the magnetic field by speed, accelerates, but then stops by colliding with another magnet, it gains energy, sure, but it doesn't leave the magnetic field with increased speed.

As i understand it by now, is on the drawing below. When moving the right magnet towards the left magnet, the right magnet indeed turns. Moving it closer to the left magnet takes very little energy, because the horizontal forces are balanced. Turning provides of course much more energy than moving requires, because both poles attract to the opposite poles of the left magnet.

So i guess you think that turning providing much more energy than moving requires, is overunity. It is not. Because it can all be explained by the Coulomb model, and there cannot be any overunity in the Coulomb model. Why, because the poles there have completely spherical fields, and in a spherical field, decreasing the force needs exactly the same energy as increasing the force provides.

Thus it is in principle not different from like dropping one magnet on another, when they attract. It takes no energy at all to drop, and the dropped magnet accelerates, getting a lot of energy. Yet it is not overunity, that is not a continuous overunity, as the dropped magnet stays on the magnet that it were dropped to, and moving it away from there takes the same amount of energy, as the dropping gave.

I'm sorry but, it seems to me by now like just some gimmick, maybe made a bit more complicated, so it is more difficult to understand, but coming from not understanding what overunity is.

#### lancaIV

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5233
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #271 on: February 27, 2020, 01:08:52 PM »
I would recommend to take a physics handbook - section mechanics : force : lever/-arm and to understand the difference in work units between Zugkraft ~ traction(force) and Hubkraft ~ lifting force and the importance of the Reibung/-Zahl ~ friction/- number .
What I see is something like a " magnetic gear".
And I do not see that anybody declared here " overunity power" in a closed cycle system !
This seems more to be like a " magnetic spring effect",catapult

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 587
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #272 on: February 27, 2020, 02:02:54 PM »
Overunity to me is more work out than in. But in context remember that permanent magnets can do work by attracting something and lifting it but then you are stuck at the sticky spot and undoing that probably requires equal work so there is no net.

Then when extra power is demonstrated that extra power can be used to make the device run itself if there is enough. By that definition I have presented 3 devices but none would self run because they need at least 300-400% extra to switch the magnetic power on and off and collect it to be used.

Here is a quick and dirty photo of how to measure the coffee cup demonstrator work out.
I bent the paper clip and hot glued a straight pin with a hook so I could hang a coffee cup creamer bucket with BBs to test the max out. You can see that the stick was lifted to horizontal but the BBs position is not clear because the axle was not bent to 90 degrees.

I'll let the input measurements to you in a similar fashion. Along the way if you experiment enough you should discover some serious work out enhancers.

Norman

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #273 on: February 27, 2020, 02:15:35 PM »
Overunity to me is more work out than in.

No, more energy out than in is not enough for continuous overunity. Like if you drop an object and it falls to the ground, this is more energy out than in. But to lift the object to the same height again takes the same energy as the dropping gave.

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 587
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #274 on: February 28, 2020, 01:11:29 PM »
When you have constructed and fine tuned the coffee cup Floor Twist Drive this drawing shows what you will see but probably not the 1:20 ratio.

We all understand the drawing on the left but you have to build to see and understand and believe the drawing on the right. Then you will believe it. Then you will know what it is really like to ride a roller coaster - then you will believe that the power in permanent magnets can be exploited and utilized.
Make the Floor coffee cup TD and you will see and understand and believe. But the keyboarders will never know what it is really like to ride a roller coaster.

Norman

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #275 on: February 28, 2020, 04:54:02 PM »
But the keyboarders will never know what it is really like to ride a roller coaster.

I'm more into theory. What i think out that's the output. Sometimes it finds a way into physical, but the thing i do is thinking.

#### telecom

• Hero Member
• Posts: 560
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #276 on: February 29, 2020, 09:04:09 PM »
I think the main problem with TD is that its using weight which it lifts
for the resetting itself.
So, if you use part of the weight going down for the external work, the resetting will be affected.

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #277 on: March 04, 2020, 07:23:48 PM »

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d

THE TWIST DRIVE

Twist Drive is the name I gave to a particular class of devices / magnet interactions, which embody specific sets of interactions between magnets.

My own explorations of magnet interaction first began with a question.  It seems easier to separate to attracted magnets from each another by twisting them apart, rather than by pulling them directly away from each other.  Does it actually require less work to separate the magnets by twisting or is it that there is a kind of magnetic equivalent to leverage, which makes the separating easier, even though technically speaking, the amount of work done is the same either way ?  Pursuit of the answer to that question was a door way into a 7 years long exploration of magnets, their interactions and physics.

I built my first two test benches, just to examine the differences between sliding, twisting and directly pulling magnets from each other.  The separation by twisting version I called the "twist drive".

I first considered the phrase "Torque Drive", which would have been a name with more  appeal.  I chose instead, to christen it with the some what dorky "Twist Drive".  This was specifically to turn off and / or discourage attention from specific types of viewers / readers.  I'm not trying to create or promote a fad and  my videos and internet time are not monetized.  It is interesting to note, an individual (unknown to me) produced a YouTube video with a diagram of the device, wherein that presenter termed the device as the "Torque Drive".  I'm guessing that presenter expected more views and attention from the sexier name.  Yet another presenter of the "Twist Drive" chose to refer to it as "floor's magnetic torque amplifier".  Note however this presenter chose to present his own and other variations of / on the device, while never actually presenting a replication of the Twist Drive itself.

As an aside.
During the course of these explorations, I arrived at something of an understanding of the Bloch wall model.  The Bloch wall is a molecular structure found in permanent magnets, which provides a kind of magnetic shielding between the magnetic domains within those magnets.  That shielding is not an over unity event in itself, but it does represent / is a form of  magnetic shielding, known to exist in nature.

Now returning to the Twist Drive as topic.
Until recently, I had not fully understood, nor did I have a very complete explanation of, or theory of  why the twist drive interactions could result in over unity.  I was very much so misinformed as to just how substantial the difference between the attracting force and repelling force available between a given two magnets can be under certain conditions.

Be all that as it may and in contrast to its simple appearance, the Twist Drive itself, embodies a complex and extremely difficult to understand set of magnet interactions.  In some specific configurations, the twist drive demonstrates magnet interactions (energy exchanges) which result in a NET energy gain of ZERO (possible using springs).  This is the common view of magnet interactions, and one which is held by scientific convention as the only possibility.  In other specific configurations, the Twist Drive demonstrates dramatic    UNDER UNITY    results, wherein, convention holds that this simply cannot be.  Under unity is just as anomalous as is over unity (if there is no explanation as to where the energy goes).  To my mind, under unity and over unity are equivalent in value as proof of over unity, in that, the one reveals the path to the other.  Other configurations demonstrate  OVER UNITY  (more mechanical work out than is input).

THE TWIST DRIVE

I have insisted that in order that the reader can know whether the device works as claimed, she or he should see for their self.  Also ... tunnel vision by an experimenter is generally the rule, rather than the exception.  Peer review is essential to the scientific process.  If the claims are exceptional, then exceptional proofs are also needed.  Not only this, but faking results is too easily done in a video format.  Believers only clog up the process.  But please also understand that I DO consider beliefs of a certain order to be of value in one's life, over all.
...
The Twist Drive is not a device which utilizes the kind of magnetic force redirection (magnetic force shielding) which most readers of the "Magnets Motion and Measurement" topic may be familiar with.  It is a "different kind of animal".  Its over unity functioning is dependent upon the fact that the attraction possible between a given two magnets, is typically greater than the repulsion possible between those same two magnets.
...
Magnetic forces, whether attracting or repelling ones, increase when the distance between a given two magnets is decreased.  Those changes in force magnitude to distance are not linear.

The shapes of magnets, have major effects upon the how they interact with one another.  The magnets / magnet shapes which I have been using (3/8 by 7/8 by 1 7/8 inch ceramic wafer magnets, poles on the broad faces), give specifically these results.

In an attraction mode, the rate of change in force magnitude to the change in distance (specifically at VERY near) is nearly linear, (nearly vertical  / over a very small distance) and the rate APPROACHES an inverse square relationship as the magnets get nearer to one another ( from very near until touching).

In a repelling mode, the rate of change in force magnitude to change in distance (specifically at VERY near) is nearly linear, (nearly horizontal over a very small distance) and the rate APPROACHES an inverse square relationship as the magnets get nearer to one another (until touching).

In attraction or repelling mode,  the rate of change in force magnitude to change in distance (specifically at far distances) become nearly linear (nearly horizontal) , and the rate APPROACHES an inverse square relationship.
...
The attraction possible between a given two magnets, is almost always greater than the repulsion possible between those same two magnets.

The DIFFERENCE in the force magnitude between when in an attraction mode and when in a repulsion mode, of a given two magnet, at a given same distance, is greatest when the magnets, are at either a near or very near distance.

The differences in force available during attraction modes and repulsion modes are due to changes in the magnetic polar orientations, of the magnetic domain structures within the magnets  (molecular and atomic domain structures).

When in repulsion, a given two magnets tend to weaken (demagnetize) each other.  When in attraction the same two magnets tend to strengthen (magnetize) each other.

THE TWIST DRIVE

There is a threshold in coercive magnetic force magnitude which must be reached, before domain reorientation become a major factor.   That force threshold is reached when the ceramic magnets I use, are in near proximity to one another.  The use of differing magnet materials, and the proportion of the strengths of the magnets used (in relationship to each other) will affect the magnet proximity
at which domain reorientations figure prominently.

There are other major factors, such as magnet shape which I do not considered here.
...
Note that RO stands for rotating while SL stands for sliding.

In regard to the forces which motivate the ROTATION of  the RO.........

During the rotation of the RO magnet in relationship to the SL magnet, 2 attraction forces and 2 repulsion forces are present, always.
................................................
When the RO magnet is crossed at its middle by the SL magnet at 90 degrees ......

As the section of the RO magnet which is ABOVE SL rotates from 90 degrees off from parallel to
SL, toward parallel to SL, the balance between the attracting and repelling forces shifts.

Simultaneously, as RO rotates, the balances in forces between the section of the RO magnet which is
BELOW SL also shift.
................................................
Above SL, and during ONE direction of rotation over a 180 degree course from parallel to again parallel.... attraction increases as repulsion decreases, while below SL, repulsion increases as attraction decreases.

Above SL, and during the OPPOSITE direction of rotation over a 180 degree course from parallel to again parallel... attraction decreases as repulsion increases, while below SL,  attraction increases as repulsion decreases.

These interactions are very complex, and words alone become utterly insufficient to describe them.  Watch the videos first or you will likely never grasp it.
................................................
During the course of the RO rotation there are attracting forces (N/S and S/N) which contribute to the RO rotation.  N/S magnet pole orientations support N/S/N/S domain orientations.  N/S/N/S domain orientation are there by increased.  This in turn STRENGTHENS to the attracting element's contribution to the rotational forces.

Simultaneously there are repelling forces (N/N and S/S) which contribute to the RO rotation.  N/N and S/S magnet orientations tend to reduce N/S/N/S domain polar orientations.  This in turn WEAKENS the repulsive element's contribution to the rotation of RO.

Up to the point at which RO is parallel to SL,  ONLY SOME of the forces act to increase / maintain N/S/N/S domain orientations.  Other forces (although still contributing to the rotation of RO) act to reduce N/S/N/S domain orientations.

THE TWIST DRIVE

When the SL magnet is aligned parallel to the  RO magnet (the rotation is completed), the magnets are in attraction as both a  N to S alignment and a S to N alignment.  Now there are ONLY attractions and ALL OF THE FORCES act to, increase / maintain N/S/N/S domain orientations.  Forces are optimized  in terms of  causing the attraction of  magnet SL to magnet RO (straight line in a plane 90 degrees to the plane of RO rotation).
FINALLY
When the RO to SL, parallel alignment, results in a N to N and a S to S alignment  (both poles repelling),  the FORCE OF REPULSION is considerably weaker over the course of  the SL magnets travel (straight line),      than would be     the FORCE OF ATTRACTION present over the course of the SL magnets travel (straight line), if the RO to SL parallel alignment,  was instead N to S and S to N (both poles attracting).
...

peace out
floor
...............................

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #278 on: March 04, 2020, 07:56:47 PM »

1. The sliding magnet (SL) is far from the Rotating magnet (RO).  RO is at a right angle to SL
RO is practically free to rotate (because it is distant from SL)

2. RO is rotated 180 degrees against the very tiny magnetic forces.  (either a clock wise or counter clock wise direction,                (WORK IN)
depending upon magnet polar orientations).  What matter is that SL is now far from RO, but also parallel to and in ATTRACTION
to RO (SL barely wants to slide toward RO).

3. SL is pulled by attraction toward RO, almost touches RO.                                                                                                                (WORKOUT)

4. RO is rotated back to 90 degrees off from SL against magnetic forces to  position # 1 again                                         MAJOR  (WORK IN).

5. SL is pulled to far from RO while SL is at 90 degrees off from RO.  This is against small attracting forces which are due to domain re-orientations.   (WORK IN)

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #279 on: March 04, 2020, 09:29:16 PM »

Typo error

1. The sliding magnet (SL) is far from the Rotating magnet (RO).  RO is at a right angle to SL
RO is practically free to rotate (because it is distant from SL)

2. RO is rotated 90 degrees against the very tiny magnetic forces.  (either a clock wise or counter clock wise direction,                (WORK IN)      CORRECTION   RO is rotated  by 90 degrees  not 180
depending upon magnet polar orientations).  What matter is that SL is now far from RO, but also parallel to and in ATTRACTION
to RO (SL barely wants to slide toward RO).

3. SL is pulled by attraction toward RO, almost touches RO.                                                                                                MAJOR  (WORKOUT)

4. RO is rotated back to 90 degrees off from SL against magnetic forces to  position # 1 again                                         MAJOR  (WORK IN).

5. SL is pulled to far from RO while SL is at 90 degrees off from RO.  This is against small attracting forces which are due to domain re-orientations.   (WORK IN)

floor

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 587
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #280 on: March 12, 2020, 03:48:31 PM »
Today by changing some more geometry I got
closing the mags = 8 units
lift from twist power = 60 units (750%
and 9 units to open mags giving 28% switching/loss 72% extra power.

The twist power is real if you maximize the closer stronger and further weaker characteristic of magnets with a geometry/leverage compensator to save wasted units.

Now that I have the concept down solid I will scale this up.
I define a unit to be a. cm moved x  b. BBs moved. ie 1 BB lifted 1 cm is 1 unit of work.

Norman

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #281 on: March 15, 2020, 11:14:45 AM »
Floor, i appreciate your effort, you know a lot about magnets, can do a lot and have done a lot. You can make many fascinating things, where magnets move in the most incredible ways. But think what wonders one can do with simple dominoes, think then how much more the magnets enable to do.

But most unfortunately, no matter how fascinating your setups are, if they can be explained by the Coulomb model, they are not overunity. You and Citfta said that i shouldn't post in your threads. But, when your setups are not overunity, and you cannot show that they are, that you have not done, then strictly speaking you shouldn't post in the overunity forum at all. Find a forum that has nothing to do with overunity, and write about your work there.

#### citfta

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1050
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #282 on: March 27, 2020, 03:02:39 PM »
Many thanks to Floor for his excellent write ups about the TD principle.  And also may thanks to Norman for his demos and testing of Floor's ideas.  Because of their efforts I have decided to get back to work on applying some of the things I have learned from both of them.  I am in the process of building a device that will utilize the TD principle in a slightly different way.  When I get it done I will post a video of the results whether they are good or bad.  Even if things don't work like I think they will maybe someone else watching the video will see a way to improve what I have.  Some preliminary tests seem to show that what I am trying to do MIGHT possibly work.  But I have been fooled before.

It will probably be tomorrow or even the next day before I get it finished and have time to video the results.

Carroll

#### citfta

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1050
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #283 on: March 28, 2020, 04:04:18 AM »
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 01:07:48 PM by citfta »

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: TD replications
« Reply #284 on: March 28, 2020, 04:22:14 AM »
https://vimeo.com/user110993378/review/401541033/fa97184c2d

Let me know if this link doesn't work.  This is my first time using Vimeo.

At least for me Vimeo says "Sorry, we couldn’t find that page", when using the Chromium browser.