Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 921552 times)

downunder

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #375 on: June 20, 2011, 05:10:17 AM »
  <snip>
    JS:  Thanks for the test on your device running on a single AA,  I really appreciate that. A regular AA non-rechargeable is 600 mA not the 2700mA like Xee uses, as that one has more than 4 times the output current.

According to wikipedia, the weakest non-rechargeable AA battery is 1100 mAh and to get a 600 mAh AA you would need to go with a NiCd rechargeable. Perhaps you are thinking of non-rechargeable AAA batteries which can be as low as 250 mAh according to wikipedia. I realise that wikipedia is not always the most reliable source, so if anyone can prove it wrong then you can feel free to just ignore this post.  :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AA_battery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAA_battery

TEKTRON

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 300
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #376 on: June 20, 2011, 05:26:44 AM »
Nick -- right now, we're working on a STANDARD means of measuring the INPUT POWER, to compare various circuits reliably, repeatable by anyone with a voltmeter and a stop-watch.  Easy.
Does your circuit draw less power than mine?  we can soon know with a repeatable method.

I replaced my LED with a 1N4148 diode, from 2.55 to 1.5 V came out at 12.6 seconds -- still at 170 uW (OK, 169 by the calculator).

GAIN is of course the next question, and requires a method to measure the output POWER reliably.  Do you have a good way to measure Poutput so we can get the efficiency? 

 I'm proposing a Thermal Wattmeter, given the strong AC components in the output typically... Still working on that.

Dr. Jones. Do you think this watt meter circuit will help determine Pout? ...attached

JouleSeeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #377 on: June 20, 2011, 05:45:41 AM »
  Thanks for the schematic Xee2 -- very clear.  Will try to replicate tomorrow..

@Nick-- agreed, there are LOTs of circuits out there.  Xee2's is particularly straightforward and attractive.  Note:  One could use a larger-capacity cap if you are worried about missing the "sweet spot", or run over a shorter time --  so that the input voltage is nearly constant.

@dimbulb: 
Quote
I have seen that amatuer radio qrp contest clubs
have come up with a meter.
they seem to be
measuring OU also.

Both your statements are intriguing -- can you provide more detail or links?

@Tektron - thanks, will look at this tomorrow as its getting late here now.

xee2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1610
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #378 on: June 20, 2011, 05:54:59 PM »

Will try to replicate tomorrow..


The type of LED I used is the best I have found for very low power. Other LEDs will probably not be as bright. But you should be able to show that the circuit will work at 4 uA. You can lower the resistor value to make the LED brighter but this will also increase battery current.





NickZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5225
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #379 on: June 20, 2011, 06:10:53 PM »
   Downunder and All:
   Thank you for the info on the AAs. I was not aware that they can vary from about 1500 to 3000 mA.  And the current is not shown on the batteries themselves. 
So, I'm afraid that unless we all use the same exact battery this test would not be very accurate either.
  But still, supposing that we use the most common and available AA,  a relative run time can be obtained.  A higher farad cap would also help. 
   The idea is to see if there really is any self-running aspect to this circuit, which can recycles the energy within the device, similar to the Joule Ringer.  And if that is not the case then, what advantage there might be over a regular Jtc.
   I personally feel that the additional energy that can keep a device running for months on end, does not come from recycled energy, but instead is drawn from the ambient.  But, that all needs to be proven.

NickZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5225
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #380 on: June 20, 2011, 06:30:14 PM »
   @ Pirate:
    Three leds were connected in parallel on Koolers BwJt, I don't know if that has any relation to the diode plug (can't spell it) that you mentioned. 
  I think that there may be a point where a higher draw is better, so long as there is resonance.  His circuits are charging instead of discharging the battery. But the other device in the same video does not use three leds, just a single one, and he mentioned that it was brighter than the one with three leds.
  He also mentions that his device are constantly going from 1.2 volts down to 0.6 volts, and back up to 1.2v, and back down the 0,6 volts.
Has anyone else found this to be the case???

JouleSeeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #381 on: June 20, 2011, 06:52:11 PM »
   @ Pirate:
    Three leds were connected in parallel on Koolers BwJt, I don't know if that has any relation to the diode plug (can't spell it) that you mentioned. 
  I think that there may be a point where a higher draw is better, so long as there is resonance.  His circuits are charging instead of discharging the battery. But the other device in the same video does not use three leds, just a single one, and he mentioned that it was brighter than the one with three leds.
  He also mentions that his device are constantly going from 1.2 volts down to 0.6 volts, and back up to 1.2v, and back down the 0,6 volts.
Has anyone else found this to be the case???

Can you provide the link(s) for Kooler's DUT that you're talking about here?  sounds very interesting.

With the sj1 circuit, after 15 hours of running on a single AA battery, the measured voltage is:
Start: 1.623 V
15Hrs: 1.621 V

Hope that is useful to you.  I will keep it running this way a while longer.

fritz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #382 on: June 20, 2011, 06:55:46 PM »
I was not aware that they can vary from about 1500 to 3000 mA.

One reason why most of the primary (non-rechargeable) cells have no rated amp-hours is - that the discharge characteristic is quite flat. (you have to specify a final discharge voltage)
Another reason is - that the consumable energy totally depends on the way you load the cell.
For a high dc current load (few hundred milliamps) - the consumable amp-hours can be a fraction of what you get with pretty less load (microamps).
If you load the cell with a pulsed load - for example pulsed microamps - the entire consumable energy can be a multiple of what the cell is rated for DC.
Conclusion:
A primary cell is no (huge) capacitor. (we exclude here electrolytic or super-caps- because they are effected by chemistry either)
The energy is derived from an electrochemical process with internal losses.
You can consume energy until this electrochemical process is exhausted.

Attached an example of a primary cell datasheet - duracell "AA" ultra.
You can find lots of datasheets for primary cells on the net.

rgds.


JouleSeeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #383 on: June 20, 2011, 07:26:45 PM »
Very low power Joule thief. Video at >>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIQ2D1pqZNc

@Xee2-- a most fascinating circuit, Xee2.  I'm enjoying studying it on my bench.

I had one of the Goldmine toroids already wound with 14 turns of 22 gauge wire, so I used that.  (Good thing I bought ten of these toroids months ago, as they are out-of-supply now.)

R = 2.3 Mohms
MPSA06
Green LED and red LED that I have gave similar Pinputs, using the cap/time method.

Here is what I found exciting -- the operation changes dramatically with Vinput voltage:

2.8 V - 1.65 V, green LED is brightly lit at the start, dims then goes essentially out at ~ 1.65V.  Power consumption is quite high:

Einput = 1/2 C V**2

So Pinput = 1/2 C (Vstart**2 - Vend**2)/time

        = 1/2 10mF (2.8**2 - 1.7**2) / 3.4 seconds   = 7.3 mW = 7300 uW

Not too exciting so far, but I noticed that the LED came BACK ON at approx 1.63 Volts!  Not bright, but clearly glowing.  Note that Xee2 on his schematic specifies 1.366V as Vinput, so this would be in the range of much lower power consumption, Pinput.

Note that the power consumption is hundreds of times LESS:

 Pinput = 1/2 C (Vstart**2 - Vend**2)/time

        = 1/2 10mF (1.431**2 - 1.243**2) / 200 seconds   = 0.0126 mW  = 12.6 uW  !!

The input power has dropped by a factor of over 500.
This is what Nick was talking about, there seems to be a "sweet spot" for operation.

BTW, I noticed the same pattern for the sj1 circuit a while back, dimming, then the LED comes back on and glows for a lot longer thereafter.  I thought it was just a curiosity when I discussed this with smartscarecrow last week, but now I see this as an important effect -- and very dramatic with Xee2's circuit, a huge reduction in Pinput.

With a red LED instead of Green, the Pinput is roughly the same (11 uW from 1.291V to 1.117V in 200s).  The red LED goes out at about 1.44 Vin (from the cap) and back on at lower Pinput, at about 1.406 Vin.

Now this is exciting -- but why the huge drop in Pinput at a critical voltage?? I really don't know, but would like to understand.  Will some of you jump and let's see if we can figure this out?  My GUESS is that the lower Pinput range is the most interesting in terms of seeking OU.

 I checked with my DSO -- before and after the transition voltage to lower Pinput, the frequency of operation is about the same -- about 48 Hz for my build.  (21msec = Period)  But above 1.7Volts, we see that the pulses are large and pulsed DC, whereas below the critical voltage, the pulses are smaller but have a significant AC component. 

Thanks, Xee2! 


dimbulb

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #384 on: June 20, 2011, 07:29:27 PM »
   Downunder and All:
   Thank you for the info on the AAs. I was not aware that they can vary from about 1500 to 3000 mA.  And the current is not shown on the batteries themselves. 
So, I'm afraid that unless we all use the same exact battery this test would not be very accurate either.
  But still, supposing that we use the most common and available AA,  a relative run time can be obtained.  A higher farad cap would also help. 
   The idea is to see if there really is any self-running aspect to this circuit, which can recycles the energy within the device, similar to the Joule Ringer.  And if that is not the case then, what advantage there might be over a regular Jtc.
   I personally feel that the additional energy that can keep a device running for months on end, does not come from recycled energy, but instead is drawn from the ambient.  But, that all needs to be proven.

I agree that a constant voltage and constant current is much more accurate.

Since constant current is a function of constant
voltage a voltage IC such as the LM431 @ 1.223V followed by constant current clamp will enhance the
battery source.  Being in agreement on this would allow comparison between two joule thieves so
illuminating battery drift.

xee2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1610
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #385 on: June 20, 2011, 08:40:09 PM »
@ JouleSeeker

My LED stays on down to capacitor voltage of about 0.8 volts


NickZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5225
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #386 on: June 20, 2011, 08:41:48 PM »
   JouleSeeker and All:
   Thank you for your latest test.  That is some very useful information, to me.  In comparison the Docs regular Jt lasts 12 hours, so... 
 Please keep it going as long as possibly and register the voltage, instead of  the current, as time goes by.  The most important point is the sweet spot, other wise it will only show the battery further discharging, as in all the other tests.  This sweet spot is caused to happen by resonance, and is the source of the anomaly.  Very important to look into just how this all works.

   A couple of links that you requested.   The second video of his BwJt   lighting 70 leds.  I'll ask him how long it last, as soon as he makes it back to life.
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dplIIhCbMcE
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgX1gYlmVsk&feature=related
   

JouleSeeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #387 on: June 20, 2011, 09:00:47 PM »
  Thanks, gentlemen. 
@Nick -- i hope Kooler is OK! 

I added a 1ohm resistor in series with the green LED here, and measured the voltage drop across this resistor (I will attach some waveforms soon), so that V = IR = I since R=1.

Further interesting -- the Pinput did not change much, perhaps down a little with the added 1ohm R:

1.261V to 1.200 V (on 10mF cap) in 80 seconds => 9.4 uW (compared with 11uW without the 1ohm R)


forest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4076
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #388 on: June 20, 2011, 09:00:54 PM »
Xee,NickZ,JouleSeeker

Is it possible to disconnect that part of winding which goes to base of transistor completely from battery ? I see that there is capacitor placed there but it still is connected to plus of battery and by lenz rule drain amperage from it. I'm seeking the way to turn on/off transistor with minimal influence on transformer while still to sense the change to open transistor.

JouleSeeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #389 on: June 20, 2011, 09:03:23 PM »
@ JouleSeeker

My LED stays on down to capacitor voltage of about 0.8 volts

Mine also, but the question is -- what happens to the LED lighting if you START at  2 V or above?  Does your LED go "off (or VERY dim)" at roughly 1.67 V  then clearly back ON at approx 1.648V  --as mine does ?

I see the same off-back on effect with a red LED, but at around 1.45 V...  so your device will probably show Off-Back on at some other voltage than 1.67/1.64 -- but probably it will occur, and in the range between 1.35 V and 2.5V.  Would you check?