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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 743966 times)

Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #345 on: June 18, 2011, 03:30:33 PM »
 
good morning Steven


i've been running my SJ1 variant tests from a single  (depleted) AAA NiMH, and the voltage has been around the 1.12-1.15V range

just for fun i constructed another unit to add to the comparative results you're getting back from folks

the circuit is a minor mod to one of my earlier tests with a variant of your SJ1 circuit (see schematic below for this test circuit)

C1 0.022uF
D1 1N5817 (schottky)
Q1 2N3906
T1 approx 50:50:100; 0.45mm wire; tri-toroid (ferrite)
C2 1000uF (nominal)
L1 approx 0.5mH
LED1 6mm(?) HiBrite (visible, but not bright)

i'm using a tertiary winding to decouple the AC o/p from the DC operating conditions of the oscillator


this circuit takes 433 seconds (7min 13sec) to discharge a nominal 1000uF cap from 2.24V to 1.5V

C2 1000uF (nominal)
2.24V => 2.509mJ
1.50V => 1.125mJ
         -------
    Ein: 1.384mJ

Pav: 1.384/433 = 3.2uW


this is all just ballpark at the moment, obviously - to be more accurate, the 1000uF cap would need measuring

also, the pulse repetition frequency is outside your stated conditions, so this circuit doesn't qualify for your competition

it starts at approx 28Hz, with no visible flicker, and the frequency increases as the supply voltage falls

the pulse 'burst' is approx 15uS long


since i have the o/p DC decoupled with the tertiary wind, i can now revert back to the NPN config of your original SJ1, so i'll be able compare efficiency between the two

[EDIT:  i'll also try with a 1N4148 (& then a schottky) replacing the LED, to see the effect on discharge time]


on the subject of the lower frequency limit for your stated conditions, i feel that in general, any frequency of LED drive which the eye perceives as 'continuous' should be counted in - this would be one of the 'design limits' for a commercial lighting product

i agree that care would be needed, in these tests, to ensure isolation from utility & broadcast sources of 'ambient' energy,  but it's not difficult to discount these other sources of input by using a metal case, or taking measurements with the device in a microwave oven

in fact, with wi-fi, bluetooth and cordless phone signals around the home this sort of shielding will likely be advisable anyway, in which case the lower frequency limit does not need to start at 200Hz

just my 2c


good idea to start a competition, looking forward to seeing how this develops!


greetings
np

[EDIT: corrected D1 partnum.]


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 
 
 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 07:19:51 PM by nul-points »

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Offline poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #346 on: June 18, 2011, 03:37:04 PM »
BTW, .99, the sentence you quoted was from a separate discussion on a different forum altogether!  which you neglected to link or even mention....  isn't that a bit odd?
It was laziness. Don't read too much else into it.

Quote
I think the criteria for the contest -- discussed ONLY in this forum -- have been clear all along, including the provision for an observable LED in the circuit, replaced by a 1N4148 diode for a final test using the cap/time method (for the contest).
imho, you will not be able to accurately make comparisons this way, and jmmac has not only reiterated this, but shown this with his post.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10773.msg291482#msg291482

In order to make fair comparisons, the Vbat and Pout must be the same in each case, then you measure Pin with your method and compare. LED intensity will not enable proper comparisons, even if substituted with a diode afterward.

.99

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #347 on: June 18, 2011, 03:38:39 PM »
Hi Professor,

I bought some components i was missing and was able to replicate your circuit. It now shows waveforms similar to yours - input current and power oscillating around zero.

Using a 10mF capacitor instead of a battery, i let the circuit run and the capacitor discharged from 2.48V to 1.50V in 104s which i believe gives an average input power of 37uW.
For this setup i used a 2N2222 transistor, Cb = 151pF, Rb = 1MOhm, Ro = 0. The led is red, very bright and needs very little current to light up. It was very visible as shown in the picture. The other picture shows part of a cycle of the input current. The frequency is around 10.6Khz made of very short pulses. I didn't measure the real capacitance of the 10mF capacitor which may have a higher value.

If i try the same setup but change the transistor with the 2N3904, the led is dimmer but perfectly visible and the capacitor discharges in 296 seconds which i believe corresponds to an average power of 13.18uW.

I'm not sure we can conclude much from these results and it's very difficult to compare results from different experimenters since there is no way to measure the led brightness. If i use the diode i get similar discharge times (a little longer).

I also tried running the circuit from the capacitor and charge a second 10mF capacitor via a schottky diode. I let the source capacitor discharge to 1.50V and at that point disconnected the charging capacitor. Calculating Ein and Eout, n is around 0.42.

Regards,
Jaime


EDIT: The coil has 20-21 turns in the primary and secondary with what appears to be a normal ferrite toroidal core. The inductance is unkown.

Thank you for doing the replication AND the cap/time method test, Jaime!


1.  "I'm not sure we can conclude much from these results and it's very difficult to compare results from different experimenters since there is no way to measure the led brightness. If i use the diode i get similar discharge times (a little longer)." 
  The use of a common diode like the 1N4148 allows us to make direct comparisons between different experimenters; we don't have to measure the LED brightness!
   @Xee2-  your suggestion of another "standard" diode Rk44 is noted; let me try it out experimentally and see how it differs.  The 1N4148 is so common, that provides some advantage for a "standard input-power test" .


2.  I need to check your numbers; pls spell out the algebra in the future -- that would help to see where there may be a discrepancy.  I get:

Ecap = 1/2 C V**2
so
Pinput = 1/2 C (Vstart**2 - Vstop**2)/time

With your numbers,
Pinput = 1/2 C (2.48**2 - 1.5**2)/time
          = 1/2 * 10mF * (6.15-2.25)/time
          = 19.5mJ/104s
          = 0.188mW = 188 uW  (not 37uW -- pls re-check)

For your longer discharge time, 296 s, I get
Pinput = 19.5mJ/296 s =66uW

Please re-check the numbers, would you?  we should agree on the calculated average input power.
 

Also, I note that with a charging cap on the output leg I typically found n~0.5-0.7 so we're not far different.  Of course, this method for Pout neglects the power dissipated in the LED (and other components), but is a first estimate (as I noted earlier).  Thanks for doing this test.

Important:  what was the POLARITY on this output cap (compared with the direction of the LED)?


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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #347 on: June 18, 2011, 03:38:39 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #348 on: June 18, 2011, 03:44:44 PM »
It was laziness. Don't read too much else into it.
imho, you will not be able to accurately make comparisons this way, and jmmac has not only reiterated this, but shown this with his post.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10773.msg291482#msg291482

In order to make fair comparisons, the Vbat and Pout must be the same in each case, then you measure Pin with your method and compare. LED intensity will not enable proper comparisons, even if substituted with a diode afterward.

.99

Laziness it is then -- but pls explain why using a standard diode at the end will not give a basis for comparisons of Pinput FOR THIS CONTEST.  (AGAIN, I'm asking you not to confuse the contest goal with the separate goal of measuring Pout and efficiency n.) 

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #349 on: June 18, 2011, 03:58:49 PM »

good morning Steven


i've been running my SJ1 variant tests from a single  (depleted) AAA NiMH, and the voltage has been around the 1.12-1.15V range

just for fun i constructed another unit to add to the comparative results you're getting back from folks

the circuit is a minor mod to one of my earlier tests with a variant of your SJ1 circuit (see schematic below for this test circuit)

C1 0.022uF
D1 1N5187 (schottky)
Q1 2N3906
T1 approx 50:50:100; 0.45mm wire; tri-toroid (ferrite)
C2 1000uF (nominal)
L1 approx 0.5mH
LED1 6mm(?) HiBrite (visible, but not bright)

i'm using a tertiary winding to decouple the AC o/p from the DC operating conditions of the oscillator


this circuit takes 433 seconds (7min 13sec) to discharge a nominal 1000uF cap from 2.24V to 1.5V

C2 1000uF (nominal)
2.24V => 2.509mJ
1.50V => 1.125mJ
         -------
    Ein: 1.384mJ

Pav: 1.384/433 = 3.2uW


this is all just ballbark at the moment, obviously - to be more accurate, the 1000uF cap would need measuring

also, the pulse repetition frequency is outside your stated conditions, so this circuit doesn't qualify for your competition

it starts at approx 28Hz, with no visible flicker, and the frequency increases as the supply voltage falls

the pulse 'burst' is approx 15uS long


since i have the o/p DC decoupled with the tertiary wind, i can now revert back to the NPN config of your original SJ1, so i'll be able compare efficiency between the two

[EDIT:  i'll also try with a 1N4148 (& then a schottky) replacing the LED, to see the effect on discharge time]


on the subject of the lower frequency limit for your stated conditions, i feel that in general, any frequency of LED drive which the eye perceives as 'continuous' should be counted in - this would be one of the 'design limits' for a commercial lighting product

i agree that care would be needed, in these tests, to ensure isolation from utility & broadcast sources of 'ambient' energy,  but it's not difficult to discount these other sources of input by using a metal case, or taking measurements with the device in a microwave oven

in fact, with wi-fi, bluetooth and cordless phone signals around the home this sort of shielding will likely be advisable anyway, in which case the lower frequency limit does not need to start at 200Hz

just my 2c


good idea to start a competition, looking forward to seeing how this develops!


greetings
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

Impressive work, nul-pts!  very good.
 And I agree with your numbers, which are amazingly low (3.2uW) --

Ecap = 1/2 C V**2
so
Pinput = 1/2 C (Vstart**2 - Vstop**2)/time
   = 1/2  1mF  (2.24**2 - 1.5**2)/433 s
   = 3.2 uW

Wow!  Very impressive.  I also agree with your argument that 28 Hz is OK -- and I'm going to drop the minimum 200 Hz requirement, with the proviso that 60 Hz is NOT OK (50Hz in Europe and much of Asia)...  and I would like to see a test of your device in a Faraday cage!  that would be interesting in itself.  E.g. a microwave oven (OFF!) should allow you to see and time the voltage drop...  yes, with the DMM inside the cavity also.


I have found, as did Jmmac, that replacing the LED with a 1N4148 diode for a standard changes the Pinput somewhat, but not much -- suggesting to me that our eye-ball estimate of a "dim LED" is not bad.  Still, would appreciate it if you would repeat the test with a 1N4148 if you would, and also if you would try to start at about 2.5 - 2.6 V...  You can start with 2 fresh AA's and run the circuit down to approximately 2.55 V then stop, and you're prepared for the "standard" starting voltage of close to 2.55V.


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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #349 on: June 18, 2011, 03:58:49 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #350 on: June 18, 2011, 04:12:59 PM »
Laziness it is then -- but pls explain why using a standard diode at the end will not give a basis for comparisons of Pinput FOR THIS CONTEST.  (AGAIN, I'm asking you not to confuse the contest goal with the separate goal of measuring Pout and efficiency n.)

It's alright Professor; apparently I'm interfering, so I'll pass.

Good luck to all with the contest.

.99

Offline NickZ

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #351 on: June 18, 2011, 04:42:45 PM »
   One of the problems with this test is that the frequency will change in the devices as the batteries or charge cap drop in charge.  So their ideal running voltage and frequency sweet spot will be vary, and be lost.  Especially when using a weak 1000 uf cap. The special quality of these low microamp circuits will be overlooked. 
   Question:  if these circuits are really running on micro amps, why are they discharging their source battery or cap as quickly as they are?
   I've got 4 BwJt running every day 24/7, they all have the same trans, cap 103, and pots, and no resistors.  They all work very different since they have different coils on them.  The leds are also all different. All of them drain the battery in a day or two.  There are even difference in using the same type of transistor, etz...
   If all the test are showing that the capacitor or batteries are being discharged, and are not maintaining their original voltage, this shows that there is no real or special efficiency with this set up. Just another Jt draining its source.  What it the point???  On the other hand if you had a unit that does NOT get discharged at all, but instead charges up to a higher value (like Koolers do), that would interest me.

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #351 on: June 18, 2011, 04:42:45 PM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #352 on: June 18, 2011, 05:07:04 PM »
 
thanks Steven, i reran the test from 2.55V and got the following results:

553 seconds (9min 13sec) to discharge a nominal 1000uF cap from 2.55V to 1.5V

C2 1000uF (nominal)
2.55V => 3.251mJ
1.50V => 1.125mJ
                   -------
           Ein: 2.126mJ

Pav: 2.126/553 = 3.8uW


i believe i have some 1N4148s, but i can't remember in which 'very safe' hiding place i stored them!  :)

before this latest 2.55V run with an LED , i tried a 1N914 in place of the LED, from 2.24V start - interestingly, it discharged approx 7 seconds faster than with the LED !  (eventually will need to run these tests several times & average, as you suggested)

will try & locate the 4148s - but not 'til next week now unfortunately

will also try with a germanium OA93 when i get a few minutes


you mentioned putting the DVM in the MWO with the DUT, which suggests that you leave the DVM in place for your measurements

i'm sure your DVM is better quality than mine - i only connect to the DUT to take 'spot' readings, so that my DVM doesn't add extra drain (or supply!)

also, i sometimes use empty biscuit tins to provide larger metal (mild steel) cases as Faraday shields for experiments  - removing any paint round outer top edge to ensure good electrical contact with lid

glad the frequency limit can come down!  will try to avoid 50Hz here  :)

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #353 on: June 18, 2011, 05:17:57 PM »
   One of the problems with this test is that the frequency will change in the devices as the batteries or charge cap drop in charge.  So their ideal running voltage and frequency sweet spot will be vary, and be lost.  Especially when using a weak 1000 uf cap. The special quality of these low microamp circuits will be overlooked. 
   Question:  if these circuits are really running on micro amps, why are they discharging their source battery or cap as quickly as they are?
   I've got 4 BwJt running every day 24/7, they all have the same trans, cap 103, and pots, and no resistors.  They all work very different since they have different coils on them.  The leds are also all different. All of them drain the battery in a day or two.  There are even difference in using the same type of transistor, etz...
   If all the test are showing that the capacitor or batteries are being discharged, and are not maintaining their original voltage, this shows that there is no real or special efficiency with this set up. Just another Jt draining its source.  What it the point???  On the other hand if you had a unit that does NOT get discharged at all, but instead charges up to a higher value (like Koolers do), that would interest me.

Can you point me to the link to one of Kooler's devices that do "NOT get discharged at all"? 
  I'm hoping that Kooler will make an entry here.

But even so, Nick, I would not agree with you that a circuit like NP's that discharges a small 1000uF cap in 433 seconds is discharging "quickly."  That's over SEVEN MINUTES from a small cap!  and under 5 microwatts for Pin. 

I agree that conditions will change as the voltage drops from the input cap, and we might later want to limit the range of that voltage drop.  The reason I like the larger range here (approx 2.55 V down to 1.5V) is that the device may indeed go through a "sweet spot" as you say.  I would like to place one of these devices in a sensitive calorimeter, running off a cap with known Ein, and measure with the cal. the precise Eout (total Eoutput).  Do you see where I'm headed with this?   But for now, getting high evident efficiency as shown by LOW Pinput with an LED lighted is the intermediate (and first) goal, and the goal of this little contest.

I don't expect you will join the contest, but it has merit IMO in teaching us about these low-power consumption circuits and in developing ideas of how to make the circuits more efficient (LED still lit with minimal input power).  That's why I offered a small incentive, again,
$100 - ($Pinput in uW/10). 

If someone gets the prize for over $99, I will be very pleased at the progress made!

And if someone gets the device to build a charge, OU that is, then the incentive goes to $200 plus help in getting the whopper prize now standing at this forum -- nearly $20,000 -- a big carrot for further research!

To summarize the conditions for the "contest" here:

Quote
Dr. Jones' Contest Conditions:
Required is a JT-type circuit, with at least one transistor and one bifilar (or higher)-wound toroid and it must light an LED to observable brightness in a lighted room.   The final test is conducted with a 1N4148 replacing the LED, and the device placed in a microwave (OFF) or other Faraday cage to exclude ambient energy sources. (The winning device cannot be poaching from the local electrical grid; operation at 50-60Hz is excluded.)   The input power is to be measured by the capacitor/time method:
Ecap = 1/2 C V**2
so
Pinput = 1/2 C (Vstart**2 - Vstop**2)/time

Where Vstart is approx. 2.55V and Vstop is 1.5V.   
The circuit with the LOWEST Pinput wins, and the award amount is currently:
$100 - ($Pinput in uW/10).

(18 June 2011)


 2.55 V for the start can be reached by beginning with two fresh AA batteries and running the device so that the cap discharges to approximately 2.55V, then pausing to take measurement of Vin the cap before proceeding with the test.   (One measures the actual value of Vstart on the cap in order to calculate Ein)




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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #353 on: June 18, 2011, 05:17:57 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #354 on: June 18, 2011, 05:26:30 PM »
NP: 

Quote
553 seconds (9min 13sec) to discharge a nominal 1000uF cap from 2.55V to 1.5V

C2 1000uF (nominal)
2.55V => 3.251mJ
1.50V => 1.125mJ
                   -------
           Ein: 2.126mJ

Pav: 2.126/553 = 3.8uW

Over nine minutes on a small 1000uF cap!  phenomenal, NP.


Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #355 on: June 18, 2011, 05:29:23 PM »
ok, i find this interesting - i just replaced the LED with an OA93 (germanium diode)

the discharge time decreased to 359 seconds (5min 59sec)

Pav = 2.126/359 = 5.9uW


i wasn't ready for that!   maybe the 1N914 discharge time was correct after all?


perhaps there's a good reason why someone mentioned earlier about using several LEDs!!!  ;)
 

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #355 on: June 18, 2011, 05:29:23 PM »
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Offline jmmac

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #356 on: June 18, 2011, 05:38:24 PM »
You are correct, i didn't recheck my calculations. I get the same values you mentioned. Sorry about that.

For the setup where i charge the capacitor, the diode anode is connected to the ground, the cathode is connected to the capacitor plus and the capacitor minus is connected to the transistor emitter.

I disagree with you regarding the use of the 1N4148 in order to compare results. The only thing it achieves is to make sure everyone has the same diode (voltage drop). It does nothing to solve the problem of comparing led brightness (power consumption).

My led is so sensitive that i can light it up connecting one end to the ground of my scope and touching the other end with my finger!


Thank you for doing the replication AND the cap/time method test, Jaime!


1.  "I'm not sure we can conclude much from these results and it's very difficult to compare results from different experimenters since there is no way to measure the led brightness. If i use the diode i get similar discharge times (a little longer)." 
  The use of a common diode like the 1N4148 allows us to make direct comparisons between different experimenters; we don't have to measure the LED brightness!
   @Xee2-  your suggestion of another "standard" diode Rk44 is noted; let me try it out experimentally and see how it differs.  The 1N4148 is so common, that provides some advantage for a "standard input-power test" .


2.  I need to check your numbers; pls spell out the algebra in the future -- that would help to see where there may be a discrepancy.  I get:

Ecap = 1/2 C V**2
so
Pinput = 1/2 C (Vstart**2 - Vstop**2)/time

With your numbers,
Pinput = 1/2 C (2.48**2 - 1.5**2)/time
          = 1/2 * 10mF * (6.15-2.25)/time
          = 19.5mJ/104s
          = 0.188mW = 188 uW  (not 37uW -- pls re-check)

For your longer discharge time, 296 s, I get
Pinput = 19.5mJ/296 s =66uW

Please re-check the numbers, would you?  we should agree on the calculated average input power.
 

Also, I note that with a charging cap on the output leg I typically found n~0.5-0.7 so we're not far different.  Of course, this method for Pout neglects the power dissipated in the LED (and other components), but is a first estimate (as I noted earlier).  Thanks for doing this test.

Important:  what was the POLARITY on this output cap (compared with the direction of the LED)?

Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #357 on: June 18, 2011, 06:35:03 PM »

Of course, this method for Pout neglects the power dissipated in the LED (and other components)...


input  = 0.5*(10e-6)*(2.48^2 - 1.5^2)/104 = 1.875e-7 = 188 uW

I can not calculate output power since end voltage was not given.

LED should not be used when measuring output power. The LED should be replaced with rectifier diode. The power lost in the rectifier diode is I^2 x R where R is the on resistance of the diode (very small for RK44).

I do not think the waveform matters, since all of the energy going to output is from energy stored in magnetic fields of coils. How this energy dissipates is not critical, only the "total amount" of energy matters.

If all of the energy dissipated in all of the components is added up it should theoretically always be exactly equal to the total input energy (n=1.00). Only the load power needs to be measured, the rest is irrelevant. When charging a capacitor, the capacitor is the load.


Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #358 on: June 18, 2011, 06:46:36 PM »

My led is so sensitive that i can light it up connecting one end to the ground of my scope and touching the other end with my finger!


 :o This should not happen. That means the scope ground is sourcing high frequency current and voltage.

Offline NickZ

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #359 on: June 18, 2011, 09:22:31 PM »
  Possibly the adding of more than one led may help to obtain the magic numbers.  Kooler (my Hero) used three leds on one of his 5 month long test units.  Worth a try. 
Resonance has everything to do with this, but a steady voltage also needs to be maintained, as the battery is part of the draw in these circuits. The oscillator is also charging the battery or the cap to a degree. In most cases, without the use of the resonance factor the feed-back charge is not of a high enough degree to keep the voltage from dropping. So, it is a flow balancing act to keep it going strong. One volt input,  8 volts back to the battery.  Similar to the Joule Ringer.  I don't belief that anyone has really hit the nail on the head yet.  But, I do hope to see it done.
   Good luck with your tests... we may all learn something from them.
   

 

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