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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 743754 times)

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #300 on: June 15, 2011, 07:17:25 AM »

hello Steven

here's some data from an experiment which is certainly NOT moving anywhere near lightspeed!


first i should just stress again that these results may just turn out eventually to represent the 'battery relaxation' phenomenon (which i've seen in many previous experiments) - i'm just sharing the data here to keep you posted with progress on my current test

the graph below represents the terminal voltage, recorded over the last 7 days, for a single AAA NiMH cell which is powering my inverted, looped SJ1 circuit with supply interruption**

** the immediate supply to my SJ1 variant oscillator circuit is a 2200uF capacitor - whenever the oscillator o/p stops, the capacitor gets a momentary re-charge from the NiMH cell via a transistor switch

the oscillator o/p (from a tertiary winding) is fed back to the oscillator supply and to the NiMH cell,
and is also used to gate the supply interruption switch

the trace below shows a typical output 'pulse burst' (here measured at the anode of the schottky diode i/p to the NiMH cell) - a group of around 3 of these pulse bursts are occurring within approx 100-300ms, the group being repeated at an interval of approx 1 second

so the average number of pulses per second is approx 15

the first pulse width is approx 30uS, its coil-collapse width approx 25uS;
schottky diodes are limiting the coil-collapse voltage peaks  to approx 560mV above the cell voltage (voltage values  obtained with  x10 probe)


i'll update after another week - or earlier, if the cell voltage starts to decrease

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

VERY intriguing, nul-pts!  So you're using a tertiary winding to extract power and feed back to the rechargeable battery, and using a switch to power-up the input-capacitor -- very clever, I must say.  If I've misunderstood, pls correct me.

Thanks much for keeping us posted on the result, and pls keep us posted as this goes forward. 
Very clever.  Sometime, pls share the more complete circuit diagram, would you?

I'm frankly amazed that you can do this while continuing your work on the Muller/RomeroUK device.  (As I read on the now-huge thread about that.)
Keep up the good work!
  Would like to meet you some day and shake your hand.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #301 on: June 15, 2011, 07:29:03 AM »
I'm working from memory, but I think Phipps in his book "Heretical Verities" analyzes an experiment by Hill, where Phipps makes the argument that the result in question would imply that near-fields have instantaneous effect, as one example.  I'll keep digging into my memory on this...

Best,    Jim

  I found reference to Phipps' paper in the American Journal of Physics (one of my favorite journals!):


Quote
American Journal of Physics -- August 1988 -- Volume 56, Issue 8, pp. 765
Heretical Verities: Mathematical Themes in Physical Description
Thomas E. Phipps, Jr., Author and Jeff Nicoll

Did Phipps write a book also?  anyway, I should be able to pick up the journal article at the University tomorrow, and save the $30 fee for getting it on-line!   

There is another paper in AJP I enjoyed as a graduate student, while at Stanford doing research and finishing class work -- about the Special Theory of Relativity vs. Lorentz-Ives ether theory.  I'll try to get that reference also.   
Do you have physics background, JimU?

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #302 on: June 15, 2011, 07:45:33 AM »
  Went to Amazon, and I see that Phipps did write a book on this also.  About $20 with shipping.  I'll first look at his AJP article, then we'll see about that book.

  Found "related" books also, particularly this one which appears may address my question ("electromagnetic retardation" is the basic point):

Quote
Electromagnetic Retardation and Theory of Relativity: New Chapters in the Classical Theory of Fields, Second Edition [Paperback]
Oleg D. Jefimenko


REVIEW: 5.0 out of 5 stars Fresh and thought-provoking, August 24, 2006
By
Travis Norsen
This review is from: Electromagnetic Retardation and Theory of Relativity: New Chapters in the Classical Theory of Fields, Second Edition (Paperback)
This is a very nicely written, interesting, and thought provoking book. The author has written extensively over the decades (both published articles and books) on the concept of retardation in electromagnetism -- basically, the idea is just that "information" about the charges/currents that give rise to E&B fields propagates at the speed of light, so that the fields at a given point can be calculated in terms of integrals over the charge/current distributions but using the "retarded time" -- i.e., integrals over all the little bits of charge/current at the locations they were at when they were sending out the "information" that arrives at the field point in question now.

The point of this book is to construct a detailed argument that much or most of what is usually considered "relativity" can be inferred directly from a consistent application of the concept of retardation. [snip]

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #302 on: June 15, 2011, 07:45:33 AM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #303 on: June 15, 2011, 12:11:40 PM »
 
[...]
Sometime, pls share the more complete circuit diagram, would you?
[...]
I'm frankly amazed that you can do this while continuing your work on the Muller/RomeroUK device
[...]
Would like to meet you some day and shake your hand.


thanks for the kind words, Steven

fortunately, once longer-term monitoring tests have been setup (such as this one, and my DIY cell experiments, linked below) it's not a problem to fit an occasional measurement into the daily schedule


i'm including the generic schematic for my ongoing looped (inverted) SJ1 test below

more details to follow here, if longer term results suggest anything more than 'battery relaxation' occurring

you'll notice that i replaced the LED with a schottky diode (D1), to reduce the amount of energy escaping the system for this test (to maximise any energy available to feedback to the supply cell)

however, last night i thought i would just take a look at what would be the effect on the o/p waveform, if i replaced D1 with the LED in this system

the effect is quite marked, the average number of pulses in each 'burst', when using the LED, increases to around double that when using the schottky diode

there are also intermittent periods of slightly lower amplitude 'driven' oscillation (approx 70kHz) which can occur in amongst the pulses in the 'burst' (this is not the damped sine-wave which we see in the trailing 'high-impedance' state of the system immediately  following the last pulse in a 'burst')

since the slope of the cell terminal voltage is fairly flat at present, and has been for a few days, i decided to leave the LED in place of D1 for sufficient time to see how it compares with the last few days results


it would be a privilege to meet you, if the opportunity arose - it's great to have an accredited scientist who is interested in 'alternative' energy, as part of the forum - i hope we can all learn from each other's knowledge and experience

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 
 
 

Offline JimU

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #304 on: June 15, 2011, 05:13:20 PM »
  I found reference to Phipps' paper in the American Journal of Physics (one of my favorite journals!):

Did Phipps write a book also?  anyway, I should be able to pick up the journal article at the University tomorrow, and save the $30 fee for getting it on-line!   

There is another paper in AJP I enjoyed as a graduate student, while at Stanford doing research and finishing class work -- about the Special Theory of Relativity vs. Lorentz-Ives ether theory.  I'll try to get that reference also.   
Do you have physics background, JimU?

Hi Dr. Jones,

Yes, I have Phipps' book by the same name, don't know if the journal article would include this material, since the book is 600+ pages in length...

My memory was faulty, the experiment Phipps discusses is one by Sherwin-Rawcliffe, not someone named Hill!  Phipps discusses the potential hill, which is probably why that name stuck in my mind.  This experiment is with electric potentials at the microscopic level.

Another experiment, at the macroscopic level, was reported in:

P. T. Pappas and Alexis Guy Obolensky:
Dec. 1986: Thirty six nanoseconds faster than light [Pappas&Oblensky_Elect&WW_v94n1634(1988)1162-1165]
© Electronics + Wireless World: Queries: http://www.electronicsworld.co.uk

In this case, a large capacitor was constructed, from two approx 2-foot square metal panels, maybe 6 feet apart (again from poor memory!), then allowed to discharge and the change measured by a fast scope, which showed an immediate pulse, interpreted to be the effect from changing near-fields, then a later one (36ns later) interpreted to be the lightspeed radiation pulse.

So, both dealt with electric near-fields, not magnetic.  I'd expect a magnetic experiment measuring one-way delay effect with today's very fast scopes could be set up, if someone were motivated to do so.

Yes, I studied physics in college, 3 years into the graduate program before deciding to make a living in computer software.  But, I've maintained an ongoing interest and try to keep an open mind on possibilities.

Best,    Jim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #304 on: June 15, 2011, 05:13:20 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #305 on: June 15, 2011, 05:52:13 PM »
  Thank you for the circuit diagram, NP. 
It will be interesting to see what the LED does to the measurements, certainly a higher load than D.

This method for measuring Poutput suggested by .99 over at OUR.com:
Quote
For a possible Pout measurement, we can try using a single diode or FWBR output to charge a capacitor. Then connect a potentiometer across this output cap and monitor the DC output with a DMM. Slowly decrease the resistance of the potentiometer until the DC output voltage begins to drop steadily. Back it off until the output voltage holds steadily. Now use the output voltage and resistance reading on the pot to compute power. I would suggest somewhere between a 10k to 50k pot.

My reply:
Quote
We can know the Pinput from the cap/stop-watch tests and can then run off a battery at a steady Vin, and with your cap/poten. measurement for Poutput, we can keep conditions steady.  It concerned me that with variable voltages on Vin and on the output cap, one could not really "tune" the circuit.  This way is much better.

Comments on this method are welcomed.

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #306 on: June 15, 2011, 05:59:36 PM »
Hi Dr. Jones,

Yes, I have Phipps' book by the same name, don't know if the journal article would include this material, since the book is 600+ pages in length...
[snip]

So, both dealt with electric near-fields, not magnetic.  I'd expect a magnetic experiment measuring one-way delay effect with today's very fast scopes could be set up, if someone were motivated to do so.

Yes, I studied physics in college, 3 years into the graduate program before deciding to make a living in computer software.  But, I've maintained an ongoing interest and try to keep an open mind on possibilities.

Best,    Jim

600+ pages for 20 bucks -- I'm going to spring for this book.  Thanks, Jim.
I discussed the experiment with a physicist last evening at some length.  A few modifications arose from that discussion, but the conclusion was the same (apparent non-conservation of momentum).

1.  Have the current on in coil A for some period of time at the start, so the B-field at B is established.
2.  Turn A off at the same time that the current in B is turned ON. 
In this way, B is immersed in the field from A when it turns on, so receives an impulse to the right,
and A will be off (and open so no effective eddy currents) when the field from B arrives.


Keeping an open mind is key to scientific progress, IMO -- thanks, Jim.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #306 on: June 15, 2011, 05:59:36 PM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #307 on: June 15, 2011, 07:15:39 PM »
 
  Thank you for the circuit diagram, NP. 
It will be interesting to see what the LED does to the measurements, certainly a higher load than D.

This method for measuring Poutput suggested by .99 over at OUR.com:
[...]
Comments on this method are welcomed.


actually i already used that method on a previous test

   link-->http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10773.msg290346#msg290346

and it didn't seem to tally at all with the previously reported DVM-based results (which suggested 'n' = 1.3 approx, iirc)

hence my latest test looking at the possibility of increasing or maintaining the state of charge of the supply cell


trying to 'simulate' a load level across a capacitor can be counter-intuitive sometimes - it's possible that you don't end up with an equivalent 'load resistance' but instead you form a 'potential divider' arrangement between source impedance and 'load resistor' - in which case the capacitor terminal voltage will tend to change towards the 'o/p' voltage of the divider


taking up your comment about the LED & Diode, above, i agree the two will cause different behaviour of the test circuit - hopefully, their target loads (AAA NiMH and 2200uF capacitor) will dominate over any differences in the forward transfer characteristics of the two components


thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

Offline NerzhDishual

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #308 on: June 15, 2011, 09:43:57 PM »

@Prof. Joule_Seeker  :)

Thank you for you comment about Yuri N. Ivanov. I'm not a physicist and I have  not done this experiment (Ivanov proposes one with a balance).

I can also just remember that violation of action-reaction principle has been 'claimed' by some people.

Now, to move the discussion forward, would I dare to say that Nul-Points  (the 'misnamed') is also a very good bass player?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Very Best


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #308 on: June 15, 2011, 09:43:57 PM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #309 on: June 15, 2011, 11:36:43 PM »
 
[...]
Now, to move the discussion forward, would I dare to say that Nul-Points  (the 'misnamed') is also a very good bass player?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Very Best


Mr Dishual - how many moons have passed since we exchanged insults in a thread?!?  too many  :)

i have heard on good authority that if you shake a tree in Bretagne then a musician will fall out - unfortunately that authority wasn't referring to Grande Bretagne!!

'nul-points' is not so misnamed wrt my bass playing  - i've listened to Breton Rock played with Free NRG and i know when i am beaten!  ;)

good to see you here, i hope you will have some more contributions to make

salut!
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #310 on: June 16, 2011, 06:27:20 AM »
Speaking of humor... see attached.  We do need a little lightening up now and then.

Scarecrow invited me to be on his show tomorrow, hopefully it will work out.
He will have some time for Q&A if you wish to show up. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #310 on: June 16, 2011, 06:27:20 AM »
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Offline JimU

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #311 on: June 16, 2011, 10:31:11 PM »
600+ pages for 20 bucks -- I'm going to spring for this book.  Thanks, Jim.
I discussed the experiment with a physicist last evening at some length.  A few modifications arose from that discussion, but the conclusion was the same (apparent non-conservation of momentum).

1.  Have the current on in coil A for some period of time at the start, so the B-field at B is established.
2.  Turn A off at the same time that the current in B is turned ON. 
In this way, B is immersed in the field from A when it turns on, so receives an impulse to the right,
and A will be off (and open so no effective eddy currents) when the field from B arrives.


Keeping an open mind is key to scientific progress, IMO -- thanks, Jim.

Hi Dr. Jones & all,

Per an open mind and relativity, have you perused the corpus of work
done by the Process Physics group at Flinders U in Adelaide, AU, which
is Prof Reg Cahill's group?

http://flinders.edu.au/science_engineering/caps/our-school/staff-postgrads/info/cahill-r/process-physics/
http://flinders.edu.au/science_engineering/caps/our-school/staff-postgrads/info/cahill-r/process-physics/papers/

They have re-analyzed the Michelson-Morley experiment, and the various
subsequent interferometer experiments and find they were not null results
after all.  In fact, they all agree on a preferred reference frame and our
velocity w/r/t to it.  More recent experiments of the one-way velocity of
lght have shown the same results, and the same velocity vector in space.

From this, they derive a new gravity theory which explains various anomalies,
such as dark matter (no need for it), etc.  There is a lot more and quite
interesting.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Per measuring the output power of your circuits, I've not been carefully
following all the great work done here, so this may be redundant, but
JL Naudin on his 2SGen project uses what looks like a simple and
effective approach:   A diode bridge on the ouput feeds, on each
leg, a parallel cap & resistor of suitable sizing, which then go to ground
or the circuit return.   So, the output pumps the caps up to a voltage level
on each leg that sustains the drain through the resistor.  Simply
measuring the steady-state voltage on each cap lets one compute
the output power on each leg of the bridge.

Section 7 of Mr. Naudin's 2SGen project shows a good schematic:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/html/s2genep7en.htm

Actually, this section 7 of JL's 2SGen project, when I analyze it for
power, seems to show a clear 2:1 out/in power ratio.  Curiously,
JL himself never analyzed in this way, instead preferring to compare
the ratio of the two output legs of the diode bridge, per magnetization
and demagnetization, focusing on a theory by N. Zaev.  But, maybe
he's already got the tiger by the tail here!  Top level link to 2SGen:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm

Anyway, perhaps Mr. Naudin's output measuring method would be
helpful here, if it has not already been tried out.

Regards,     Jim
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 12:27:55 AM by JimU »

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #312 on: June 17, 2011, 06:38:02 AM »


actually i already used that method on a previous test

   link-->http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10773.msg290346#msg290346

and it didn't seem to tally at all with the previously reported DVM-based results (which suggested 'n' = 1.3 approx, iirc)

hence my latest test looking at the possibility of increasing or maintaining the state of charge of the supply cell


trying to 'simulate' a load level across a capacitor can be counter-intuitive sometimes - it's possible that you don't end up with an equivalent 'load resistance' but instead you form a 'potential divider' arrangement between source impedance and 'load resistor' - in which case the capacitor terminal voltage will tend to change towards the 'o/p' voltage of the divider


taking up your comment about the LED & Diode, above, i agree the two will cause different behaviour of the test circuit - hopefully, their target loads (AAA NiMH and 2200uF capacitor) will dominate over any differences in the forward transfer characteristics of the two components


thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

Thank you for these insights, NP.
I mentioned your work on the Smartscarecrow broadcast this evening -- hope that's OK.  I really appreciate your work.

@JimU, note the comments by NP above, which jive with my experiments. 

Experimentally -- I placed a 10mF cap across Rout and found 5.1 V across the cap when the variable resistor was 2.51 Kohms.  This gives Pout ~ V**2/R = 5.1**2 / 2.51 K = 10.4 mW, which is not unreasonable, but evidently n<1 for this case.  (And not counting the Power dissipated in the LED, which was very bright, not sure how to do that reliably.)
  However, I found that the waveform (power) is significantly distorted -- and see caveats above.

Thanks for the URL's - I hope to get to those tomorrow.

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #313 on: June 17, 2011, 07:02:35 AM »
  While it is very difficult (at least for me) to measure Pin and Pout reliably and simultaneously, I think much can be learned just from the effort to reduce Pin in this circuit, or ANY JT-type circuit.

I'm proposing a little "contest" to this end, to see which circuit can draw the LEAST POWER INPUT and still light an LED with reasonable visibility.  (That's a little hard to define, but say -- visible in a lighted room -- and visible in a photograph.) 

By varying Cb, Rb, the wound-toroid, I've reached 0.17 mW Pin -- see photo showing the set-up.

It will be necessary to measure Pin reliably -- I used the Cap/stopwatch method.
 P = Ein/time, measuring Ein using a cap, from 2.55 V to 1.5 V, so around 2Volts in.
Best result (to date):  12.7 seconds using a 1000 uF cap for Piin, so
 P = 1/2 10mF (2.55**2 - 1.5**2)/12.7s

= 0.17 mW = 170 uW.

Conditions: Rb = 47 Kohms
Cb = 223 pF (ceramic cap)
MPS 2222 transistor
Ro =  220 ohms
Lo ~ Lb ~ 130 uH
No CSRout or Co or Rr or CSRin.

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #314 on: June 17, 2011, 07:12:30 AM »
(could not get this portion to post, so adding here)

I believe I can measure Pin quite accurately, to roughly +/- 5%, with this method -- once I measure C, which I need to do.  (At a colleague's in town.)   

It would be helpful to know the frequency of operation of the devices, but not necessary since not everyone has an oscilloscope (or other means to determine frequency).

I would like to encourage replications (and learning), and so I'm proposing a small "contest" -- to see who can reach the lowest Pin for any JT-type circuit.  (See, e.g., attached)    Pin to be measured by this method, cap + stopwatch for Pin.  LED present, visibly glowing.
Incentive (wish I were richer; this is just to make it fun; I just found $100 tonight I didn't know I had!):  Lowest Pin in one month -- on July 17th,  will receive $100 minus ($microwatts/10). 
THus, my entry today would be $100 - 170/10 = $83.


However, please announce results as you go along (as I'm doing above), so we can see the progress.

If someone reaches Pin = 0 in a self-runner, that goes to $200 PLUS I'll be glad to help you get this forum's OU prize which now reaches roughly $20,000.

Just for fun -- and learning!

 

OneLink