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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?  (Read 742480 times)

Offline NickZ

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #330 on: June 18, 2011, 03:59:19 AM »
  @JS:
   Your device source capacitor drained a volt in 12 seconds,  so where is the gain??? Or am I missing something? 

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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #331 on: June 18, 2011, 04:11:01 AM »
OK, I saw that you stated the following:

Is that in reference to the start or end of the run?

Super-brights!  :o

.99

Clearly, we would need to quantify a MINIMUM brightness for the LED to make useful comparisons between circuits...   

I have another idea -- experimenter will replace his LED with a common diode, 1N4148, and then use the stop-watch/Cap method to determine INPUT power.

In this way, we approach a reliable STANDARD METHOD for evaluating the INPUT POWER for various devices.

And the input voltage needs to average out to 2 volts, at present.  Hmmm...  thinking of a standard, we may want to go from 3.24 V (fresh AA's to charge the input-energy Cap) to 1.50V on the cap.

Offline poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #332 on: June 18, 2011, 04:14:13 AM »
Clearly, we would need to quantify a MINIMUM brightness for the LED to make useful comparisons between circuits...
This only works if everyone uses the same type of LED, and everyone has a means of measuring the LED's intensity.

.99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #332 on: June 18, 2011, 04:14:13 AM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #333 on: June 18, 2011, 04:19:39 AM »
  @JS:
   Your device source capacitor drained a volt in 12 seconds,  so where is the gain??? Or am I missing something?

Nick -- right now, we're working on a STANDARD means of measuring the INPUT POWER, to compare various circuits reliably, repeatable by anyone with a voltmeter and a stop-watch.  Easy.
Does your circuit draw less power than mine?  we can soon know with a repeatable method.

I replaced my LED with a 1N4148 diode, from 2.55 to 1.5 V came out at 12.6 seconds -- still at 170 uW (OK, 169 by the calculator).

GAIN is of course the next question, and requires a method to measure the output POWER reliably.  Do you have a good way to measure Poutput so we can get the efficiency? 

 I'm proposing a Thermal Wattmeter, given the strong AC components in the output typically... Still working on that.

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #334 on: June 18, 2011, 04:21:32 AM »
This only works if everyone uses the same type of LED.

.99

AS I SAID,  test requires that you replace the LED with a 1N4148 for the "final" test, to permit comparison.  Maybe our posts are crossing in ether-space?

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #334 on: June 18, 2011, 04:21:32 AM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #335 on: June 18, 2011, 04:28:34 AM »
AS I SAID,  test requires that you replace the LED with a 1N4148 for the "final" test, to permit comparison.

This does not solve the problem of having a baseline for comparison. What criteria would there now be for the circuit operating?

With your current criteria, I am certain I can beat everyone. I can build a circuit that will drop from 2.5V to 2.4V in 10 seconds.....do I win?

.99

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #336 on: June 18, 2011, 04:46:15 AM »
This does not solve the problem of having a baseline for comparison. What criteria would there now be for the circuit operating?

With your current criteria, I am certain I can beat everyone. I can build a circuit that will drop from 2.5V to 2.4V in 10 seconds.....do I win?

.99

Required is a JT-type circuit, with at least one transistor and one bifilar-wound toroid and it must light an LED to observable brightness in a lighted room (all as I said before IIRC) before the final test with a 1N4148 replacing the LED.

And the winner will check the FREQUENCY also... 
I'm going to add a provisional stipulation that the frequency of input-power pulses be above 200 Hz, to prevent pulsing "once in a blue moon" and also to avoid 60-Hz pick-up.  If you can persuade me this is not a "fair" stipulation, I'm listening.

The winning device cannot be poaching from the grid. 

How's that?  and I do appreciate your checking the criteria, .99.  Rigor without rancor.

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #336 on: June 18, 2011, 04:46:15 AM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #337 on: June 18, 2011, 05:01:30 AM »
Required is a JT-type circuit, with at least one transistor and one bifilar-wound toroid and it must light an LED to observable brightness in a lighted room (all as I said before IIRC) before the final test with a 1N4148 replacing the LED.

And the winner will check the FREQUENCY also... 
The winning device cannot be poaching from the grid; that may require some additional tests.

How's that?  and I do appreciate your checking the criteria, .99.  Rigor without rancor.

No problem. ;)

So this contest excludes anyone that does not have an oscilloscope.

Best to measure and use output power then. You need a baseline Pout and baseline Vbat.

Pout:

1) remove all output diodes/LEDs, and replace with only a fixed non-inductive resistor, of some chosen value that all will use.

2) measure Vout across Rout with scope probes (very close to body of resistor).

3) Have the scope compute rms of measured voltage.

4) Pout = Vrms2/Rout

5) Don't Panic! This works and has been proven.

.99

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #338 on: June 18, 2011, 05:20:04 AM »
No problem. ;)

So this contest excludes anyone that does not have an oscilloscope.

Best to measure and use output power then. You need a baseline Pout and baseline Vbat.

Pout:

1) remove all output diodes/LEDs, and replace with only a fixed non-inductive resistor, of some chosen value that all will use.

2) measure Vout across Rout with scope probes (very close to body of resistor).

3) Have the scope compute rms of measured voltage.

4) Pout = Vrms2/Rout

5) Don't Panic! This works and has been proven.

.99

It's true that some means of getting the frequency would be required at the end, if only to preclude the question of a prosaic 60-Hz source.   but you know, a guy can get a decent DSO for about $300 these days, or go to the local high school and check the frequency.  There are three guys that I know of within a few blocks of my house with oscilloscopes, Abe, Les and Bob.

Now, with regard to output power -- you're changing the system dramatically here and it's not the same system when you do this:
Quote
1) remove all output diodes/LEDs, and replace with only a fixed non-inductive resistor, of some chosen value that all will use.

Are you kidding?  You're drastically altering the dynamics of the device!

What I'm proposing is to replace each output resistor(s) with a resistor(s) whose heat-rise is calibrated for power measurement.  That way we actually leave the diodes and everything in place, and don't destroy the system in an attempt to measure it.  (Misses the power dissipated in the diode still.)

What you're suggesting is like throwing a sledge-hammer at a finely-tuned watch in a (vain) effort to see what's inside, how it works.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #338 on: June 18, 2011, 05:20:04 AM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #339 on: June 18, 2011, 05:26:29 AM »
Now, with regard to output power -- you're changing the system dramatically here and it's not the same system when you do this:
Are you kidding?  You're drastically altering the dynamics of the device!

What I'm proposing is to replace each output resistor(s) with a resistor(s) whose heat-rise is calibrated for power measurement.  That way we actually leave the diodes and everything in place, and don't destroy the system in an attempt to measure it.

What you're suggesting is like throwing a sledge-hammer at a finely-tuned watch in a (vain) effort to see what's inside, how it works.

Then I've misinterpreted this response of yours?

Quote
In any case, no I would not make a "specific requirement to have a diode or LED in the output" if you're going to measure Pout.  The LED in the output was for the cap/stopwatch test for Pinput, with the LED glowing... something any one can do without a scope.

That is why I asked, so that it could be simplified. If removing the diode changes the circuit too much and invalidates the proposed contest, then so be it. It was simply a suggestion and I was trying to help out.

.99

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #340 on: June 18, 2011, 06:19:16 AM »
It is true that as the criteria were refined, the following were specifically delineated AFTER the sentence you quoted, .99:

Required is a JT-type circuit, with at least one transistor and one bifilar-wound toroid and it must light an LED to observable brightness in a lighted room (all as I said before IIRC) before the final test with a 1N4148 replacing the LED.

And the winner will check the FREQUENCY also... 
I'm going to add a provisional stipulation that the frequency of input-power pulses be above 200 Hz, to prevent pulsing "once in a blue moon" and also to avoid 60-Hz pick-up.  If you can persuade me this is not a "fair" stipulation, I'm listening.

The winning device cannot be poaching from the grid. 

How's that?  and I do appreciate your checking the criteria, .99.  Rigor without rancor.

And you replied, so you did get this...  Yes, .99, a diode is required.

Further, there are two things going on here --
1.  A contest (with a prize offered) to get the minimum Pinput with the above criteria
and
2.  An effort to measure Pin and Pout -- and thereby the efficiency of such devices.
This is really a separate issue, since the contest does not require a Measurement of Pout.

Better not to confuse the two goals.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #340 on: June 18, 2011, 06:19:16 AM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #341 on: June 18, 2011, 07:06:04 AM »
BTW, .99, the sentence you quoted was from a separate discussion on a different forum altogether!  which you neglected to link or even mention....  isn't that a bit odd?

I think the criteria for the contest -- discussed ONLY in this forum -- have been clear all along, including the provision for an observable LED in the circuit, replaced by a 1N4148 diode for a final test using the cap/time method (for the contest).

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #342 on: June 18, 2011, 07:54:17 AM »
  End of 2010 and earlier this year, I followed the JouleRinger work by LaserSaber and others.
These devices are truly impressive in their low-input-power requirements.  LaserSaber's DUT lit up CFLs for hours as I recall off of several caps...  though replication was difficult for many IIRC.

I wonder if any of you could apply the cap/time method to a "good" JouleRinger device using one LED -- and finally a standard 1N4148 diode -- in the output, instead of CFL's (which are notoriously non-standard).  Then we would be able to compare these circuits with other circuits (going forward) in a meaningful way.

Offline jmmac

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #343 on: June 18, 2011, 02:17:20 PM »
Hi Professor,

I bought some components i was missing and was able to replicate your circuit. It now shows waveforms similar to yours - input current and power oscillating around zero.

Using a 10mF capacitor instead of a battery, i let the circuit run and the capacitor discharged from 2.48V to 1.50V in 104s which i believe gives an average input power of 37uW.
For this setup i used a 2N2222 transistor, Cb = 151pF, Rb = 1MOhm, Ro = 0. The led is red, very bright and needs very little current to light up. It was very visible as shown in the picture. The other picture shows part of a cycle of the input current. The frequency is around 10.6Khz made of very short pulses. I didn't measure the real capacitance of the 10mF capacitor which may have a higher value.

If i try the same setup but change the transistor with the 2N3904, the led is dimmer but perfectly visible and the capacitor discharges in 296 seconds which i believe corresponds to an average power of 13.18uW.

I'm not sure we can conclude much from these results and it's very difficult to compare results from different experimenters since there is no way to measure the led brightness. If i use the diode i get similar discharge times (a little longer).

I also tried running the circuit from the capacitor and charge a second 10mF capacitor via a schottky diode. I let the source capacitor discharge to 1.50V and at that point disconnected the charging capacitor. Calculating Ein and Eout, n is around 0.42.

Regards,
Jaime


EDIT: The coil has 20-21 turns in the primary and secondary with what appears to be a normal ferrite toroidal core. The inductance is unkown.

EDIT2 - The power calculations are wrong. In the first case its 184uW and in the second its 65.9uW.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 05:41:02 PM by jmmac »

Offline xee2

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Re: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?
« Reply #344 on: June 18, 2011, 02:44:54 PM »

... replaced by a 1N4148 diode for a final test using the cap/time method (for the contest).


I recommend using RK44 diodes since the forward drop is only about 0.2 volts at 10 ma. This is another kooler discovery.


 

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