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Author Topic: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33  (Read 494527 times)

quarktoo

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #480 on: January 15, 2011, 05:32:48 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fByrVUxkTek

Here is the magnet shield I was referring to. It is kind of an interesting idea. Most of what he "believes" is wrong but the idea of directing the flux around one side is interesting.

Given the fact that youtube suspended his account just for showing it is also interesting.

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Offline teslaalset

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #481 on: January 18, 2011, 09:49:37 AM »
I disagree. What is shown in that article is trivial because there's no change in energy when moving along equipotential surfaces. There's nothing unusual in that article. The reason for the excess energy is elsewhere.

Continued discussion from page 30, reply #440:

After doing some study, I have to disagree with Omnibus (sorry ;)) and agree with Neptune.
The V shaped track is acting as a long bar shaped magnet that is wrapped around a cylinder.
So, the horizontal movement is done by the cylinder while the lifting is representing the vertical movement, exactly what is described in the patent of Kozeka .

I did some simple FEMM simulations. The measurements in the patents match my findings, see below pictures of the results.
First picture represents the forces required to move the magnet (in this case the cylinder)
Second picture represent the energy over distance
Third picture shows the energy difference between the horizontal energy and vertical energy over distance. The total difference in energy is the last value (on the utmost right value, representing the end of each movement) in the third picture.

The essence of this is that the mechanical lift of the bar magnet should have less friction losses than the energy gained in this setup and the energy it takes to lift the magnet should also be less than the energy gain in the setup.
I am looking into lifting the bar magnet with an electromagnet.
By pulsing the electromagnet you can efficiently lift the bar magnet and re-use the energy in the electromagnet after switching off (via flyback diode)

Here's the link to Kozeka's patent once more:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=451
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 02:08:01 PM by teslaalset »

Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #482 on: January 18, 2011, 03:13:15 PM »
@teslaalset,

I should say again, the correct understanding of this phenomenon and why we should be hopeful that a magnetic-propulsor like device (not only a V-track shaped but any magnetic-propulsor like device) is not in the mere sideways versus straight movement of magnets but lies elsewhere is the following. It is always to be expected that removing the magnets in a certain direction is closer to removing them along equipotential surface then removing them along another direction and therefore the work done in the first case will be less then in the other case. That may not, however, ensure gain when closing the loop (removing one magnet away from the other, moving the former magnet at another point of the field and letting it go back to its initial position, attached to the first magnet).

The excess energy along a closed loop is obtained only when the magnet being removed from the other magnet is also let go from the same potential surface, as I've explained here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10177.msg270908#msg270908 .

Thus, for excess energy to be produced we not only have to utilize the fact that the form of the magnetic force versus distance may differ when the attracting magnet is approached from different points by the magnet being attracted but also the latter magnet has to be removed and let go from surfaces where it has the same potential energy. That second crucial condition is not fulfilled in Kozeka's case.

Now, having understood how the excess energy is really produced in magnet-propulsor like devices and having no doubt it is real we are faced with a major difficulty in utilizing it for the purposes of making a continuously turning self-propelled motor -- the amount of the excess energy is not only very small but it is produced in a non-technological way. In the case at hand rotational excess energy has to come from translational kinetic energy while in a case such as the shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnqXJbwpNRo translational excess kinetic energy obtained when the ball s moving in one direction has to be utilized for inducing translational kinetic energy of the ball in another direction. How is this difficulty to be ofercome is anyone's guess at this time.

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #482 on: January 18, 2011, 03:13:15 PM »
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Offline neptune

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #483 on: January 18, 2011, 05:39:22 PM »
@teslaalset . so your conclusion seems to be [correct me if I am wrong] that the energy gained by 2 magnets attracting face to face and moving together is greater than the energy needed to separate them by a sideways sliding movement . The difficulty , if this is true of using this to make a motor is as follows . As the 2 magnets attract and move together , The energy produced starts at a very low level , and increases exponentially reaching a maximum at the end of the movement . To separate the magnets , we need a large force initially , decreasing exponentially until the separation is complete . So The two "power curves" do not match .The answer might be to store the energy off attraction in a flywheel , And then ,an instant later , to use this stored energy for the separation along the appropriate path .

Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #484 on: January 18, 2011, 07:16:15 PM »
Here's where I'm stuck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSrgTTmHGMQ and that's not at all unusual. That's where everybody gets stuck. Now, when adding a cam you add more parameters, unneeded disbalance and weight let alone friction. A flywheel would also add more weight which has to be overcome in addition to everything else. So, these obvious suggestions don't seem to work. The goal is first to avoid gravity effects and that can be easily done. Another goal is to have only fields act and have mass as small as possible and that's not easy to accomplish. Nevertheless, the escess energy produced while making one turn still seems to be quite small to be sufficient for overcoming the barrier at the end of the turn despite the deceiving feeling one has when lifting the stator with the pencil (seen in the vid) that the work done is negligible.

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #484 on: January 18, 2011, 07:16:15 PM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #485 on: January 18, 2011, 08:43:02 PM »
@Omnibus;

Before you modify your experimental setup shown, you should
consider building an electric version of this wheel. The electric version
is solid as it has no mechanical moving pieces except the rotor.

For example you could make magnetic poles by cutting a large iron
washer into quarters and gluing two poles pieces onto the magnet.
Then wrapping some wire coils around the pole pieces. You could
test this by a switch which applies a DC current pulse only during
the sticky spot, to turn the magnet off.

In a perfect world you could charge an electrolytic capacitor during
the wheel rotation and reverse the cap across the coil during the
sticky spot.

The beauty of this is that for a particular voltage, a particular
cap will hold a specific quantity of electricity. So you can tell
by a voltage reading how close the device is to overunity operation.
(plus, it would be neat to see it operating)

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline teslaalset

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #486 on: January 18, 2011, 09:36:16 PM »
@teslaalset . so your conclusion seems to be [correct me if I am wrong] that the energy gained by 2 magnets attracting face to face and moving together is greater than the energy needed to separate them by a sideways sliding movement . The difficulty , if this is true of using this to make a motor is as follows . As the 2 magnets attract and move together , The energy produced starts at a very low level , and increases exponentially reaching a maximum at the end of the movement . To separate the magnets , we need a large force initially , decreasing exponentially until the separation is complete . So The two "power curves" do not match .The answer might be to store the energy off attraction in a flywheel , And then ,an instant later , to use this stored energy for the separation along the appropriate path .

@Neptune,
It's difficult to draw conclusions without doing the real measurements myself.
The only thing I tend to believe is that by moving magnets this way there is a surplus of energy.
The patent of Kozeka shows it (confirmed by real measurements), my simulations confirm it and also Omnibus experiments shows this.

As you and Omnibus already indicate (and I agree), the real problem is to convert this principle into a real working mechanical model.

I think there are a few critical parameters that need real accurate tuning as well.
In my initial FEMM simulations, I used  1 cm cube magnets and a displacement of 2 times 50 mm.
(the horizontal axis indicate units of 0.1 mm, representing the steps that my simulations used).
From the third graph in my posted results one can see that there is a maximum of energy gain at a particular distance smaller that 50 mm, rather than take the value of the full stroke of 2 times 50 mm.
You can see that the optimum energy surplus is around 14 mm. 
So, this method can be used to determine the optimized maximum gain and the corresponding optimum stroke if the magnets are given parameters.

There maybe other movement combinations that have larger gain as well, who knows.
If I can find time, I will do some more simulations to see whether I can find these combinations.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 10:19:33 PM by teslaalset »

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #486 on: January 18, 2011, 09:36:16 PM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #487 on: January 19, 2011, 02:24:57 AM »
omnibus,

Quote
Here's where I'm stuck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSrgTTmHGMQ and that's not at all unusual. That's where everybody gets stuck. Now, when adding a cam you add more parameters, unneeded disbalance and weight let alone friction.

maybe the picture below will give you a new approach.

the idea is to reduce the load of the reset device as much as possible.  by mounting the stator magnet on a bell crank (i think that word works here) with a counter weight, you can reduce the force needed to raise the magnet.  the nice thing about it is it can be applied to a larger unit without any increase in load.  just adjust the weight or length of arm counterweight is mounted on to suit the job.

if adjusted proper, you should be able to blow on the #4 arm and the stator magnet will go up.  cool?

you can determine the height and time by the overlap length of #3 & #4.  once it is in your hand, it will be clear.

the timing in the picture maybe off, but that too you can work out once the parts are in place.

if after you've had a look you don't get it, let me know and i'll try to help.

tom

Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #488 on: January 19, 2011, 10:06:53 PM »
Now, this is getting real close: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jftQS2ClBm8 . The gravity effects are basically taken care of and one has to figure out now how to move away that mosquito-like pendulum just a wee bit to have it overcome the sticky spot.

@tbird, hope you'll like this more conservative solution which avoids additional structures.

@mscoffman, your idea is very good but it seems we'll get into the same problem Paul Sprain has -- how is the output energy to be measured. Paul Sprain's device so far is the closest to achieving an OU motor, using brute force -- slight input from the outside to allow for the overcoming of the sticky spot.

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #488 on: January 19, 2011, 10:06:53 PM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #489 on: January 19, 2011, 10:40:22 PM »
Omnibus,

bill wilson used a couple more magnets in repulsion.  he said it worked well.  they don't have to be big, just far enough out not to interfer with the working magnets.

tom

Offline maw2432

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #490 on: January 20, 2011, 12:09:58 AM »
Omnibus, 

To move your stator,
You may want to try putting another magnet (where you are moving it with your pencil) on the movable stator ( in repulsion mode) to another magnet at the bottom of your rotor where you want to get pass the sticky spot.   Being lower down on the stator arm you should have more leverage. 
It does not take very large magnets to move the stator away.... problem then may be timing in swinging it back?

Bill

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #490 on: January 20, 2011, 12:09:58 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #491 on: January 20, 2011, 12:46:48 AM »
Omnibus,

bill wilson used a couple more magnets in repulsion.  he said it worked well.  they don't have to be big, just far enough out not to interfer with the working magnets.

tom

Bill Wilson? Does he really have a working PMM? Would be interested to see a link.

Offline tbird

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #492 on: January 20, 2011, 01:21:30 AM »
Omnibus,

maw2432 is bill wilson. check his post in this thread.  his latest post is just before your last.

tom

Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #493 on: January 20, 2011, 01:40:56 AM »
Omnibus,

maw2432 is bill wilson. check his post in this thread.  his latest post is just before your last.

tom

Thanks.

I know from experience that trying to solve this conundrum by adding more and more magnets leads you into a dead-end. Some fine tuning of the pendulum spring constant and the mutual disposition of magnets may be the solution in addition to the "brute force" addition of a cam to realize the negative feedback -- some feather-like cam or something, ensuring proper timing at low friction.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #494 on: January 20, 2011, 06:03:42 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fByrVUxkTek

Here is the magnet shield I was referring to. It is kind of an interesting idea. Most of what he "believes" is wrong but the idea of directing the flux around one side is interesting.

Given the fact that youtube suspended his account just for showing it is also interesting.

That is also an important video. Wonder if the guy implemented that idea in a magnet motor or in a closed-loop magnetic propulsor? It's hard to believe that youtube would suspend an account for showing this kind of video. Are you sure it wasn't for something else?


 

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