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### Author Topic: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33  (Read 535964 times)

#### tbird

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 317
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #435 on: January 03, 2011, 06:46:22 PM »
hi neptune,

@tbird . I do A lot of biking ,and wether the hills are long or short , I get no help from any friends ! OK I know you did not mean that litterally . Work=force times distance , so if you lift the magnet a given distance , the work required remains the same . Think of me biking up a steep hill . If I use a lower gear , pedalling is easier , speed drops , and the climb takes longer . But I still burn the same number of calories .Gearing is just a continuous form of leverage . By the use of leverage in this machine , you could lessen the force needed to lift the magnet , but the lifting would need to happen over a longer time period .{more degrees of rotation] and this may upset the timing of the machine and would also extract the same amount of momentum from the rotating wheel . So, how about an opinion from some of you mathematicians instead of leaving it to an old retired truck driver like me.

this is exactly why i posted reply #399.  maybe no one could relate to the machine at hand, but no one tried to answer the question.  maybe no one knows.

maw2432's (bill) design is basically the same thing.  the power to work the lever at the bottom comes from the circumference of the drum (top end of segment a in my pic).  cam, trigger device, whatever you want to call it, will still be determined by how long and how high you want the stator magnet assy. to be effected (or is it affected?).  granted, if the desire is to raise the stator magnet 6mm, then the cam will have to be (at 4 to 1) 24mm further out than the circumference of the drum  and have to get there in the allocated dwell angle.  i must be getting real confused now.  i'm using mm......??

in Roobert33's machine, you actually have a higher (worse) ratio (5 to + or - 6).  this can't be the best, can it?

#### mscoffman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1377
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #436 on: January 03, 2011, 11:59:11 PM »
@All,

A couple of things I noticed about Roobert33â€™s motor;

The lift-bar mechanism seems to be stiff and *balanced* near the upper
right hand corner where the two wood pieces join up. The cam bearing weight
is also located near there. This means that the left hand slider has to support
or direct very less force (vectors) and has little tendency to jam. Itâ€™s kind
of a center of gravity consideration for the entire lift mechanism.

---

The lift support spring near the base appears double acting and works in
both compression and contraction mode, making it somewhat of a resonant
system. A resonant system will require less net total input energy, since some
energy is recycled and not totally lost, But at the same time may make the liftâ€™s
operation a bit probabilistic.

---

A better way might be to attach the V-bar to a pendulum and let very small
energy loss increment take place as pendulum energy friction while the V_bar
cycles regularly. The pendulum would need to synchronized with the drum rotation
very similar to an escapement mechanism in a clock â€“ which are known to be very
low energy loss devices.

Here is a Web link to the graphics of V-gate motor where the V_bar moves
comparitively continuously;

FYI, Web Link to neat possibly useful Magnetic bearing;

:S:MarkSCoffman

#### maw2432

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 338
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #437 on: January 04, 2011, 12:06:08 AM »
hi neptune,

this is exactly why i posted reply #399.  maybe no one could relate to the machine at hand, but no one tried to answer the question.  maybe no one knows.

maw2432's (bill) design is basically the same thing.  the power to work the lever at the bottom comes from the circumference of the drum (top end of segment a in my pic).  cam, trigger device, whatever you want to call it, will still be determined by how long and how high you want the stator magnet assy. to be effected (or is it affected?).  granted, if the desire is to raise the stator magnet 6mm, then the cam will have to be (at 4 to 1) 24mm further out than the circumference of the drum  and have to get there in the allocated dwell angle.  i must be getting real confused now.  i'm using mm......??

in Roobert33's machine, you actually have a higher (worse) ratio (5 to + or - 6).  this can't be the best, can it?

Tbird,

Glad you are still thinking of leverage.   I think it is the way to go.   Sorry but I have to wait until this weekend for magnets and time to do some experiments with my simple rig.   As to my design,  I think there may be enough leverage to move the rotor past the sticky point......... but many adjustments may be needed.  There are a lot of factors involved.  As to your comments, I think the closer to the shaft the cam is, you will also have less distance on lift of the stator and less control for adjustments for a novice garage developer like me.    Yes the stator arm at the top moves strait up and down even with some weights from the limited testing that I have done.  I hope the leverage will be enough to over come the friction.    I have to work during the week and family needs, so it may be later this weekend for an update.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13968
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #438 on: January 04, 2011, 01:49:00 AM »
So, there are lots of ways for power to be dissipated in this system. Cams, sliders, bearings, noisy thumpy interactions, all taking power away and turning it into waste heat, sound vibrations, and air motion.

But as far as I can see it's just an arrangement of permanent magnets moving past each other. We already know -- or should know -- that there's nothing about systems like this that PROVIDE power: there's no way for power to get INTO the system to replace the power that's dissipated in all that heat and wasted motion.

Unless of course it's supplied externally, or is coming from an onboard storage source.

You can actually calculate, based on some simple assumptions, how much power has to come from SOMEWHERE to keep your Roobert motor spinning at, say, 60 RPM. It's not going to be much, but it's still a lot more than you can get from moving magnets past each other.

Test your replications by taking out the "stator" magnet and replacing it with an equal weight dummy. Compare the rundown times, giving the rotor the same starting push, with the stator magnet in place, or with a non-magnetic weight substituted for it.

In this way you will be able to tell if your improvements or modifications are having any effect, helping or hurting.

You can give the rotor a repeatable starting push in many different ways, depending on the sophistication of your equipment.

#### Omnibus

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5330
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #439 on: January 04, 2011, 05:23:03 AM »
Quote
We already know -- or should know -- that there's nothing about systems like this that PROVIDE power: there's no way for power to get INTO the system to replace the power that's dissipated in all that heat and wasted motion.

On the contrary, we know and we should know that there is something in these systems that provides power. We know (you don't, but that's your problem) that the magnetic propulsor generates such power. The device at hand is a magnetic propulsor of sorts and all that needs to be done is proper machining and tweaking it. We know that it is possible in principle to build a working device like the one shown by @Roobert33's but we don't know yet to proper engineer it.

#### neptune

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1127
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #440 on: January 04, 2011, 11:24:08 AM »
@TinselKoala. You MUST read the article I showed via the link in reply number391 on page 27 . THIS is where the energy is coming from .

#### teslaalset

• Hero Member
• Posts: 695
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #441 on: January 04, 2011, 01:07:02 PM »
@TinselKoala. You MUST read the article I showed via the link in reply number391 on page 27 . THIS is where the energy is coming from .

I uploaded the patent Kozeka obtained on this.

#### Omnibus

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5330
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #442 on: January 04, 2011, 02:43:53 PM »
@TinselKoala. You MUST read the article I showed via the link in reply number391 on page 27 . THIS is where the energy is coming from .

I disagree. What is shown in that article is trivial because there's no change in energy when moving along equipotential surfaces. There's nothing unusual in that article. The reason for the excess energy is elsewhere.

#### neptune

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1127
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #443 on: January 04, 2011, 04:40:48 PM »
@Omnibus . Two independent researchers show between 13 and 20% overunity , and that is "trivial"?

#### nievesoliveras

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1996
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #444 on: January 04, 2011, 04:55:11 PM »
According to the videos posted by @mscoffman
There is a goal to build this motor to run a generator and
Shows the magnetic bearing.

Is it that exist the possibility to use the magnetic bearing to build the motor?

Jesus

#### Omnibus

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5330
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #445 on: January 04, 2011, 05:22:55 PM »
@Omnibus . Two independent researchers show between 13 and 20% overunity , and that is "trivial"?

If there's OU (and, of course, there can be OU even more than 13 and 20%) but that is not because of the effect claimed in the link and in the patent (it doesn't appear it's a patent even but just a pre-patent disclosure, PCT). You can understand that by realizing that there cannot be a change in energy along equipotential surfaces. This is the reason why moving the magnets sideways (along equipotential surfaces) will require less energy than separating them along the equipotential surface normals. That is trivial.

#### neptune

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1127
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #446 on: January 04, 2011, 05:45:12 PM »
@Omnibus .Having read the said article , it is my understanding that what is claimed is the opposite of what you said in your last post . What is being claimed is that it takes less energy to pull the magnets directly apart  then the energy that can be gained by letting them approach in a sideways sliding motion . also , to describe someones opinion as "trivial" is not perhaps the best way for us all to work happily towards a common goal .

#### Omnibus

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5330
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #447 on: January 04, 2011, 10:26:11 PM »
@Omnibus .Having read the said article , it is my understanding that what is claimed is the opposite of what you said in your last post . What is being claimed is that it takes less energy to pull the magnets directly apart  then the energy that can be gained by letting them approach in a sideways sliding motion . also , to describe someones opinion as "trivial" is not perhaps the best way for us all to work happily towards a common goal .

You can check it easily for yourself that it's not that way. Nevertheless, even if it were the way you describe it, that will not produce excess energy either. You can, of course, prove me wrong if you can show that the work done in a closed loop is not zero because the essence of my claim is that it will be zero.

As for something being trivial -- that's independent of the common goal. The common goal cannot convert a trivial thing into non-trivial.

#### Omnibus

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5330
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #448 on: January 04, 2011, 11:10:57 PM »
Now, let's talk about what's trivial, what's non-trivial and what is being overlooked. Like I said, it is trivial that no work is done when moving along an equipotential surface. That we cannot explore directly for OU purposes. Another trivial thing is that when there is a body experiencing a variable force of attraction as a function of the distance r between that body and the attracting body, that function may be different when the studied body approaches the attracting body along different paths starting from infinity (starting from points away from the attracting body where the force of attraction is practically zero, that is, several cm away from a magnet; that is, several cm away from a magnet is practically infinite distance from the magnet because it corresponds to an infinitely small force). That second trivial fact can be used for the obtainment of OU but that has nothing to do with just two magnets and their movement sideways or straight. This trivial fact applies to any situation where there is an attractive body with non-uniform conservative force. The said discrepancy is inherent in mechanics but has been overlooked as a source of OU. That's what the basis of functioning of the magnetic propulsor is and that has already been analyzed prior to Kedron. In fact this is what's causing the effect in @Rroobert33's motor and that's what's holding my interest and expectation that said device may be real.

#### lumen

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1372
##### Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #449 on: January 05, 2011, 02:00:00 AM »
The "Eden Project", I tested this about a year ago and found the major error they made. They used spring scales in their testing! I performed the exact same tests with the same 3/4" square magnets and found no difference in energy at all. Everything balanced perfectly using a digital scale.

I originally had nearly exactly their same results until I noticed the plastic handle stretching on my digital scale and causing small position errors in the magnets when under high tension.
I modified the scale to provide a solid steel mount directly to the measuring unit to remove any spring when under high tension. I tried the tests several times after that, but all gain shown previously was gone!