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Author Topic: A Morality Issue Poll  (Read 29937 times)

tysb3

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2010, 08:39:23 AM »
if the maches in childrens hands is dangerous, mature people need to refuse use it ?

masster

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2010, 02:57:42 PM »
@harti
thank you for helping this topic again by cleaning religious propaganda replies.
we will be able to breathe easier from now on.

@Nihilanth
thank you for being a part of this exchange of ideas. as the initiator of this topic and poll I couldn't be more happy when I see there are down to earth people willing to answer to a challenging issue: are we, humans, capable to withstand such a great responsibility on our shoulders ? or is our moral fabric so thin that we will be no part of any major technical revolution ?
so my choice would be to share my invention with humankind. whatever risks involved. period.
although "I would take the secret to my grave, fed up with people's low moral" is very appealing too :)
but then I was asking myself: wasn't that the choice of the vast majority of past legendary "free-energy" inventors ? let's not be afraid name big names. should I make the same mistake they did ?
of course there would be some bitter taste in my mouth when I'd share my invention, but hey... that's progress. the benefit will be that many sane people will have a better life. although there will be also some sick, limping monkeys dragged along with this new wave of technology, I am very confident they will have to learn to stand up or eat bananas forever...

XS-NRG

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2010, 03:17:00 PM »
But there is another thing.

Prototypes are expensive.
And i mean real expensive.
Early prototypes may look like the are cheap but there can be thousants of dollars spent on it's background research and earlier failure models.

So you have build your first working unit, and it has cost you say 50.000$
This covers most of your research, equipment tools and materials used.

The final design is made up of parts that alone cost say 50 $

So we have a problem here.
You have done all the hard work and you have spend all your money.
This means no nice car no house no saved money ,nothing but a working model.

If you give this away it starts to fuck with your mind.
Others can just spend 50$ and get it without having to go through all the way you went.

So you drop back to the "who want's it and is willing to do something for it will find it without my help" thing.
And that actually works very nicely, but then you see there are not much people who are willing to drop their car or house.

Nihilanth

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2010, 06:14:53 PM »
Personally, I don't think that would bother me. Unless I did it, I'd probably think it wouldn't have gotten done. And considering the possible economic impacts of free energy, I think the value of that money would have shot straight though the ground anyway. With a few, much smaller investments I could probably live comfortably & unemployed for the rest of my life thanks to OU. And in the end, isn't that what we all want, to not have to go to work? :P

@massterwhen it comes to "take the secret to my grave, fed up with people's low moral" vs sharing it, I think I'd share it. I've remembered that there are groups I hate almost as much as religious fanatics, those being free energy denialists & large energy companies/organizations actively involved in suppressing free energy inventors. Ignoring any overlap, I'd be hurting one group I hate at the cost of helping the other, and helping everyone else. That and as it's been said earlier, the more people who know it, the less important of a target I'd be.

One thing to consider though while trying to spread a free energy schematic is that most people aren't too knowledgeable of electronics. The easier it is to replicate, the more people will be making it/testing it. Trying to wire something with the output of a single wall socket or higher, there's a greater risk for people to get hurt or kill themselves. The second most common power source around the house (or at least in mine) is the AA battery which is basically harmless. In my opinion we need more experimentation with low power designs, especially if they could be more scalable.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2010, 07:04:29 PM »
But there is another thing.

Prototypes are expensive.
And i mean real expensive.
Early prototypes may look like the are cheap but there can be thousants of dollars spent on it's background research and earlier failure models.

So you have build your first working unit, and it has cost you say 50.000$
This covers most of your research, equipment tools and materials used.

The final design is made up of parts that alone cost say 50 $

So we have a problem here.
You have done all the hard work and you have spend all your money.
This means no nice car no house no saved money ,nothing but a working model.

If you give this away it starts to fuck with your mind.
Others can just spend 50$ and get it without having to go through all the way you went.

So you drop back to the "who want's it and is willing to do something for it will find it without my help" thing.
And that actually works very nicely, but then you see there are not much people who are willing to drop their car or house.
There's some serious truth here that this forum needs to address bigtime.  It's a lot of time and money that goes into this endeavor of free energy/overunity.  People have families and bills.  Everything we do is based on dollars.  HELL, one of the biggest reasons people want free energy is to save money.  A little hypocrisy there...  And we all want to have cleaner energy too.  The one thing that I can say and I'm guessing many others here can too is that the search for overunity is not cheap.  I've spent enough money that I'm way past ready to call it quits.  Even the demands for the overunity prize is not cheap and will not leave you with any prize money in the end. 

Why not have some minimal financial reward for achievement here?  By doing so you would bring in more people willing to spend their own money to accomplish the task.  I totally agree this shouldn't be something for greed.  I have no desire to be or see the next bill gates come out of an overunity success; but it would be nice to see enough money to compensate all the time and work and family needs at a minimum.  Isn't there a way one could be paid a little and still have it end up being cheap/clean energy for everyone?  Is there some middleground?  Where everyone can be a part of it and still be compensated for the time and money and years put in?

XS-NRG

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2010, 09:21:01 PM »

And in the end, isn't that what we all want, to not have to go to work? :P


You don't have to go to work if you don't want to.
And having a free energy device isn't going to change anything about that you would still have to pay for your house water and alot of things etc.


Why not have some minimal financial reward for achievement here?  By doing so you would bring in more people willing to spend their own money to accomplish the task.  I totally agree this shouldn't be something for greed.  I have no desire to be or see the next bill gates come out of an overunity success; but it would be nice to see enough money to compensate all the time and work and family needs at a minimum.  Isn't there a way one could be paid a little and still have it end up being cheap/clean energy for everyone?  Is there some middleground?  Where everyone can be a part of it and still be compensated for the time and money and years put in?


I would say the prize needs to go up further this way it will compensate even more and stimulate people to do research and devellopment.

Spending money on diffrent projects means there will be money lost on things that will not make it so this means that the winner will get less money just because of that.

By the way people who do this as a hobby do not want money from others.
At least i do not.

This reminds me of the magniworks scam.
THey did a real good job at selling those so called how to guides.
Unfortunatly it was a scam but they did make some serious money.





masster

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2010, 10:33:10 PM »
So we have a problem here.
You have done all the hard work and you have spend all your money.
This means no nice car no house no saved money ,nothing but a working model.
let's step back a little and have a look at the bigger picture.
or even better, let's watch the following movie:

News Headline: Today, March 9th 2011, Thomas Auer, a german inventor from a small village near Leipzig, released online simultaneously all over the major international servers the full blueprints of a new revolutionary device that will change for ever the way we know and use energy. Made from not too expensive materials, the majority of us will be capable of building it and use it to power our house and car for FREE. Contacted by our crew, Thomas statement was: "I created this device because I believe people were slaves of energy corporations. From now on, energy freedom will be a fact and nobody will be able to suppress this information from getting to the rightful owners: we, simple decent people. My only wish is that everybody make my device plans available for free and not take any profit from it. We will prevail."

End of movie.
So now let me ask you this: will people ever repay Thomas ? Will they be indifferent towards the greatest inventor alive who brought them the biggest gift in human history ? Will he be able to pay his rent, house mortgage, etc ? Come on...

Hugo Chavez

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2010, 10:53:42 PM »
You don't have to go to work if you don't want to.
And having a free energy device isn't going to change anything about that you would still have to pay for your house water and alot of things etc.

I would say the prize needs to go up further this way it will compensate even more and stimulate people to do research and devellopment.

Spending money on diffrent projects means there will be money lost on things that will not make it so this means that the winner will get less money just because of that.

By the way people who do this as a hobby do not want money from others.
At least i do not.

This reminds me of the magniworks scam.
THey did a real good job at selling those so called how to guides.
Unfortunatly it was a scam but they did make some serious money.
it's a hobby for me too.  I do not want to get rich off this or scam people.  In fact I have a stickied thread on the Magnet Motors forum complaining/exposing magniworks.  With that said there is a point to money and the goal of overunity.  If there were some middleground, some payoff, it would entice a more serious endeavor from a larger field.  We all know we've seen a bulk of scammers ripping people off over the years.  It would be nice to be able to take this goal of overunity up a few steps and leave the scam artists and hoaxters behind.  I don't know how that can be done, but I'm sure it is something worthy of talking about.

XS-NRG

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2010, 12:19:59 AM »
Something works, or something does not...
There is no middle in between so how would you do that?
By the looks? or by the theory behind it?
I don't think that's the correct way...

I can see that some small thing can be improved to become something bigger do.
But then you can give money to anybody that thinks they can do it and that are a lot of people, i don't think there is so much money and alot will be lost.
And then again, who decides who get's some and who does not?

Also would you give money to starters, the ones that still need to develop their skills, or to die hards that are on the job for a long time and thus have spend alot of money already?

We could allow people to present what they are working on, and based on that other people could pick projects they want to support.  :)
Be it by votes or even by making small donations...

The 3 months one watt challenge is actually a good one because it creates the solid base to build on and the first who wins this get's the money.
I think it's fair and i also think this person has spend much time and money on it, still i know the prize is nothing compared to what they have done.

I still think one prize is best, the first that delivers a device that meets the 3 month one watt challenge deserves it right away.



Nihilanth

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2010, 02:23:01 AM »
You don't have to go to work if you don't want to.
But I enjoy not being homeless.
And having a free energy device isn't going to change anything about that you would still have to pay for your house water and a lot of things etc.
An unlimited power supply has an unlimited potential for doing work. Free energy doesn't directly give water, but technically could power a dehumidifier & extract water from the air. It would also provide heating, cooling, light & obviously power to computer automated machinery. Everyone could potentially be self-sufficient. The only thing left would be taxes. And at that point money itself would seem redundant without needing jobs or public utilities, except for stupid luxurious junk like ipods.

XS-NRG

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2010, 05:55:54 PM »
But I enjoy not being homeless.


See this is how black and white you think.
I know people who do not work and who are nowhere near homeless.
It's the decission you make to go to work and not going to work does not mean you have to be homeless.


An unlimited power supply has an unlimited potential for doing work. Free energy doesn't directly give water, but technically could power a dehumidifier & extract water from the air. It would also provide heating, cooling, light & obviously power to computer automated machinery. Everyone could potentially be self-sufficient. The only thing left would be taxes. And at that point money itself would seem redundant without needing jobs or public utilities, except for stupid luxurious junk like ipods.


I notice many times people do not have a realistic view about free energy.
Some think that once you have something working people will start to knock on your door and start to deliver boxes filled with money at your doorstep so you can pay the rent for the rest of your life or something like that.
There won't be any of that.

Some think we can get rid of all jobs because we have found free energy.
How many do you know of that have a roof filled up with solar panels?
It does not change anything exept that you don't get a bill from the utility company.
You can't just quit your job because of that.
If you want to quit your job you will heve to be alot smarter then this.

it won't happen overnight, it will be a long road, lot of time.

Nihilanth

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2010, 03:26:32 AM »
See this is how black and white you think.
I know people who do not work and who are nowhere near homeless.
It's the decision you make to go to work and not going to work does not mean you have to be homeless.
Then how do I not go to work, not be homeless, not mooch off anybody or government program, and do it all without winning the lottery or robbing a bank?
Some think that once you have something working people will start to knock on your door and start to deliver boxes filled with money at your doorstep so you can pay the rent for the rest of your life or something like that.
Good point. I'll move into an RV, and be constantly on the go. You can't tax what isn't there. Then again, if the tax collectors can do the same, I don't see why they'd bother. That's why it's good to share.
Some think we can get rid of all jobs because we have found free energy.
You still haven't given a valid reason as to why we can't.
How many do you know of that have a roof filled up with solar panels?
No one. Because solar power is weak, easily cut-off, expensive, and requires replacements every few years. Too much maintenance & too little cost-effectiveness. A motionless free electricity generator, with no parts that burn up or break down, well that's a different beast entirely.
It does not change anything except that you don't get a bill from the utility company.
You can't just quit your job because of that.
Still have yet to hear a 'why'.
If you want to quit your job you will have to be a lot smarter then this.
Well if you're so smart, why are you here?
it won't happen overnight, it will be a long road, lot of time.
But once I have free energy, I'll have already won. I don't expect something like this to happen overnight, but once established, I know things can never go back to the way it was before.

masster

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2010, 05:55:27 AM »
@XS-NRG
and don't forget the (solar panels)-(solid state free energy device=SSFED) comparison is like comparing apples and oranges.
because solar panels aren't your invention, they are expensive, they have small under-unity COP, they are weather and day dependent and so on.
I think that you have to do greater efforts in seeing the whole picture and imagining what will happen a few steps ahead. trust me, there are still good people alive. not everybody will take your invention for granted and say *uck him!".
/@XS-NRG

but let's not forget that we are here to discuss about inventors' moral fabric and not how to build a SSFED without any money and effort. IMHO an inventor able to share his invention with humankind for free has to know it takes a lot of sweat, blood and tears. progress = sacrifice. and if our first question is "why me ?" or "where money from ?" or etc. then we have to dig a hole, jump in and die because we are doomed.
unless we see farther than 2 inches in front of our eyes...

The Architect

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2010, 03:46:08 PM »
you are not considering dangerous side effects. what if more than one of your devices are built to power a place and they are placed in a strange configuration you never intended on and the power being drained is not equal causing say a phase variance difference on some energy level we do not understand yet.

this is where I am at. holding it secret till I know it is not capable of other things and is safe no matter what or at least as safe as current electrical generation systems that are kept in peoples homes and RV's and such

XS-NRG

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Re: A Morality Issue Poll
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2010, 05:10:01 PM »
Then how do I not go to work, not be homeless, not mooch off anybody or government program, and do it all without winning the lottery or robbing a bank?


You start your own busness and make alot of money.
Then there will be a point where you can sit back and relax if you do it the right way.
Simple isn't it?


You still haven't given a valid reason as to why we can't.


Okay so from this answer i make up you are living in some sort of dream world and you are thinking free energy will solve all the problems in the world...it isn't going to happen.
Free energy isn't going to change a thing other then a cleaner biosphere.
Things still need to be done, sure you can transport goods with a free energy powered truck, but it still needs a driver.
You should think some more about it.


No one. Because solar power is weak, easily cut-off, expensive, and requires replacements every few years. Too much maintenance & too little cost-effectiveness.


Okay so now i am getting a bit angry.
Now you are talking plain bullshit here.
It is clear to me you do not know what you are talking about.

My entire house is solar powered and i cannot call it weak, you just need to install enough panels.
I sometimes disconnect the battery's when there is too much sun, weak no way!
Sure they are not too effecient but hey i have all the energy i need.
It does not need maintance at all and BPsolar gives a 25 year power gurantee and you call that a replacement every few years...i am sure they go well over 25 years actually.
If you do not now what you are talking about i suggest you shut up.
My solar panels do not even come close to the cost of my research and development! they are cheap compared to that.
Please buy some!!! then we can talk again.I recommend them!!!


A motionless free electricity generator, with no parts that burn up or break down, well that's a different beast entirely.


Your appliance does not care about where the power comes from.
Nothing changes other then you do not have to pay for the energy...


Well if you're so smart, why are you here?


I am here to see if there are people that can convince me, that i should share my work.
But people like you even make me wanne leave.


But once I have free energy, I'll have already won.


If you ever find it, it will help you understand my point of view.

@XS-NRG
and don't forget the (solar panels)-(solid state free energy device=SSFED) comparison is like comparing apples and oranges.
because solar panels aren't your invention, they are expensive, they have small under-unity COP, they are weather and day dependent and so on.

They are in one word: GREAT!

I think that you have to do greater efforts in seeing the whole picture and imagining what will happen a few steps ahead. trust me, there are still good people alive. not everybody will take your invention for granted and say *uck him!".

I think i am looking at a bigger picture then you are looking at.
I may be wrong.


but let's not forget that we are here to discuss about inventors' moral fabric and not how to build a SSFED without any money and effort. IMHO an inventor able to share his invention with humankind for free has to know it takes a lot of sweat, blood and tears. progress = sacrifice. and if our first question is "why me ?" or "where money from ?" or etc. then we have to dig a hole, jump in and die because we are doomed.
unless we see farther than 2 inches in front of our eyes...

You have no idea what is 2 inches in front of my eyes.
I am looking for reasons i have only seen one yet.
About our future children living in a clean environment and that they deserve it.

you are not considering dangerous side effects. what if more than one of your devices are built to power a place and they are placed in a strange configuration you never intended on and the power being drained is not equal causing say a phase variance difference on some energy level we do not understand yet.

this is where I am at. holding it secret till I know it is not capable of other things and is safe no matter what or at least as safe as current electrical generation systems that are kept in peoples homes and RV's and such

Current electrical systems are very dangerous.
The ac comming from the wall can kill you.
I can touch the poles of my battery's without dying or getting a shock.
It takes more metal at lower voltages so bigger wires have to be used for the same power.
That's about the only drawback i can think of.

But you are right FE appliances have to be safe.
It's quite hard to achieve because most of them use high voltages and can go into melt down.