Author Topic: Electrical igniter for gas engines A keystone to understanding by Magluvin (Read 250949 times)

gyulasun · « **Reply #495 on:** May 05, 2010, 08:45:25 PM »

Hi Magluvin,

Would like to add some thoughts on your above post.

Quote

Is there an advantage to having a primary coil of a few turns of stout wire?

I think the very small inductance (I think of some tens of microHenry maximum) made a very fast response time for the primary coil, current was only limited by the inner resistance(s) of the capacitor(s) and the thick wires, so an extremely high peak current could be had, surely the L/R time was very very small.
Tesla wrote he loved capacitors because he could draw quasi "unlimited" power from them. Here is a conversation between him and a Counsel:

"Counsel
I understood a little while ago when you made the statement of using several thousand horsepower put into a condenser, you could take out of the condenser a million horsepower. I wondered if you got the same condition with this machine.
Tesla
Yes; I charged the condenser with 40,000 volts. When it was charged full, I discharged it suddenly, through a short circuit which gave me a very rapid rate of oscillation. Let us suppose that I had stored in the condenser 10 watts. Then, for such a wave there is a flux of energy of (4 x 10⁴)², and this is multiplied by the frequency of 100,000. You see, it may go into thousands or millions of horsepower."

Here you can find the thread I quoted from the total text is included in the link scotty provided in his post: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6250.msg146671#msg146671 If you go down to the bottom of that thread, you can see Tito's question which I think one of his 'secrets' (it was in Dec, 2008).

Question arises: was it overunity? Unfortunately no, at least not in that way, Tesla simple took out the same Wattsecond energy from the capacitor during a much shorter time (so he seemingly amplified the power but in fact it must have been peak power which of course can be much much higher but lasts for much less time.) This is why he used stout wires of a few turns: to get the smallest resistance possible to maximize current.
But if we are to believe Tito that he has something, then the answer for his question at the end of the thread is partly included in his question I think...

rgds, Gyula

forest · « **Reply #496 on:** May 05, 2010, 09:55:00 PM »

Quote from: gyulasun on May 05, 2010, 08:45:25 PM

Hi Magluvin,

Would like to add some thoughts on your above post.

I think the very small inductance (I think of some tens of microHenry maximum) made a very fast response time for the primary coil, current was only limited by the inner resistance(s) of the capacitor(s) and the thick wires, so an extremely high peak current could be had, surely the L/R time was very very small.
Tesla wrote he loved capacitors because he could draw quasi "unlimited" power from them. Here is a conversation between him and a Counsel:

"Counsel
I understood a little while ago when you made the statement of using several thousand horsepower put into a condenser, you could take out of the condenser a million horsepower. I wondered if you got the same condition with this machine.
Tesla
Yes; I charged the condenser with 40,000 volts. When it was charged full, I discharged it suddenly, through a short circuit which gave me a very rapid rate of oscillation. Let us suppose that I had stored in the condenser 10 watts. Then, for such a wave there is a flux of energy of (4 x 10⁴)², and this is multiplied by the frequency of 100,000. You see, it may go into thousands or millions of horsepower."

Here you can find the thread I quoted from the total text is included in the link scotty provided in his post: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6250.msg146671#msg146671 If you go down to the bottom of that thread, you can see Tito's question which I think one of his 'secrets' (it was in Dec, 2008).

Question arises: was it overunity? Unfortunately no, at least not in that way, Tesla simple took out the same Wattsecond energy from the capacitor during a much shorter time (so he seemingly amplified the power but in fact it must have been peak power which of course can be much much higher but lasts for much less time.) This is why he used stout wires of a few turns: to get the smallest resistance possible to maximize current.
But if we are to believe Tito that he has something, then the answer for his question at the end of the thread is partly included in his question I think...

rgds, Gyula

The answer lies in simple other Tesla answer....

" [Returning to a discussion of Fig. 31], [E] is supposed to be a condenser. That [A] is the generator. Now then, supposing that this is a generator of steady pressure. I can obtain oscillations of any frequency I desire. I can make them damped or undamped. I can make them of one direction or alternating in direction as I choose. At G are devices which operateâ€”lamps, or anything else. Some experimenters who have gone after me have found a difficulty. They said,

"No, we cannot produce a constant train of oscillations."

Well, it is not my fault. I never have had the slightest difficulty. I produced constant oscillations and I have described how I produced them. Anyone who has no more than my own skill can do it.
"

Magluvin · « **Reply #497 on:** May 06, 2010, 12:31:52 AM »

Hey Guys, thanks for the good replies.

Is it possible that these simple conversions are all that tesla was talking about, and that there is no over unity at all in Teslas experiments?
As I have said in above posts, I may have made a mistake in what I thought I understood from Teslas writings and this pat. description. But I cannot say for sure as of yet till I try.

Titos claims, we cannot fully believe for sure because he will not prove or back up his claims. But does that mean he is not truthful? None of us can make that assumption for sure, but it is what we can conclude thus far because of a level of trust within ourselves by what we know so far.
So maybe he should not have made the claims if he had no intention of spilling the beans. But it is what it is.

Yet Tesla did make some of the same claims. The Faraday dynamo, the Peirce Arrow, and the receivers that he worked on in the hotel lab at the end of his days.

And maybe none of those things had anything to do with what this thread is all about.
I dunno yet. But I will try and test within my abilities and level of understanding to find out. I may miss something along the way and skip by a really important item or feature that I just didnt notice or not be knowledgeable of to recognize. But I try as well as I can. =]

When I see 10 watts to 10,000 watts or horse power, that can be very influential in thinking that OU may or must exist in what he is saying, Tesla that is. How could this conversion be close to possible?
In everyday standards, to load up a cap to a tot of 10 watts, we can assume that only around 10 watts or a bit more due to efficiency would be used to make that energy stored. So even if the output is produced in a flash, 10,000 watts or even horse power, it is unfathomable that there is no gain at all. How many pulses of 10 watts would it normally take, by conventional thinking, to produce these incredible amounts of power, even if it were very short bursts? But as I read it, this great amount of energy IS produced by 1 discharge from the cap.

Be back in a lil bit. =]

Mags

bboj · « **Reply #498 on:** May 06, 2010, 09:34:05 AM »

Ithink the problem is how to take out this magnified energy without killing the oscilation. That is - can we pump the second condenser to a much higher value and discharge it into some device.
I thin Tito talks about multiple stages, so somehow he is extracting energy without inductive connections between stages.
It is not overunity - which does not exist. In a way it is a kind of electric leverage.
We are talking about work in and work out.

sparks · « **Reply #499 on:** May 06, 2010, 01:35:53 PM »

In a patent of Tesla's referring to system for electrical distribution he takes a generator plant and charges a capacitor through a normal close coupled transformer. Then he dumps it into his system which has a capacitor at the end of the line and inductive loads parallel to the capacitor in series with the spark gap. The spark gap is pulsing like crazy so the impedance of the inductive loads is way too high to be driven directly from the spark gap discharge but the capacitor after the spark gap is quite capable of being charged. The inductive load pulls from the capacitor as needed. This system of electrical distribution was never employed. The spark gap could be capable of energy conversion from chemcial or thermal energy. This manifests as running with gain. If this process is repeated millions of times a second and each cycle runs at a cop of greater than one your biggest problem is controlling the process.

Magluvin · « **Reply #500 on:** May 09, 2010, 07:19:57 PM »

Been a bit busy still unpacking and sorting my stuff.
Here is a vid of the igniter inductor working as and orbo drive without the large coils in place, but still in circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2MwBg33D80

Mags

Magluvin · « **Reply #501 on:** May 09, 2010, 07:56:24 PM »

The vid took a bit long to process, YT and its new way kinda sucks. But the vid is finished processing now

Mags

Magluvin · « **Reply #502 on:** May 18, 2010, 01:49:48 AM »

Did a vid last night of the igniter pulse motor and I show the circuit on the sim prog. Some had asked me to show a circuit of it, and it is possible that without explanation, the pat. may be confusing for some at yt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7KAjf00abw

Mags

delboy · « **Reply #503 on:** December 01, 2010, 09:02:14 AM »

Quote from: Magluvin on May 05, 2010, 03:36:51 AM

The Tesla quote above, I had found while looking at some things Delboy had posted on the Magnifying Transmitter thread the other day, but this was on the previous pages to what he had posted.
But I thought about it today. Is there an advantage to having a primary coil of a few turns of stout wire? Could it be that the oscillations in the primary and the cap are not killed off as easily as a hundred or more turns of another primary that are commonly used? Why else would Tesla do it this way?

Maybe the stout primary is of so little resistance and the caps instantaneous discharge into that resistance, the amount of wattage at that moment would be staggering. But would that wattage in the amount of time that it existed, be more than the wattage and the amount of time to charge the cap for discharge?
Mags

Hello Mags,
you are missing one important thing, and that is SECONDARY SHOULD NOT BE LOADED !!! (DIRECTLY = BY TWO WIRES). Tesla showed how should it be connected. Don't worry about primary(NO OVERUNITY), it should be few turns of wire because you want high energy pulses(high current), and that pulses are transfered to secondary where resonant effect is magnifying them. There is huge energy rise, because it is accumulated, and it is oscillating free(BIG REACTIVE EVERGY OSCILLATIONS OF HIGH VOLTAGE AND HIGH FREQUENCY), it is not consumed by DIRECT receiver and then you pick it up by receivers as Tesla suggested, as much you wish. (THERE IS BIG OVERUNITY BECAUSE INDIRECT CONNECTION OF RECEIVER WITH SOURCE) PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THIS !

Thanks. Delboy

delboy · « **Reply #504 on:** December 01, 2010, 06:05:17 PM »

Quote from: bboj on May 06, 2010, 09:34:05 AM

Ithink the problem is how to take out this magnified energy without killing the oscilation. That is - can we pump the second condenser to a much higher value and discharge it into some device.
I thin Tito talks about multiple stages, so somehow he is extracting energy without inductive connections between stages.
It is not overunity - which does not exist. In a way it is a kind of electric leverage.
We are talking about work in and work out.

My last post answers this question also "how to take out this magnified energy without killing the oscilation".
To all of you!
Please read Tesla's patents on his receivers (pat 685955 and pat 787412) and try to understand how they work.
Try to understand next thing. RLC in resonance is accumulating energy to some max level depending on how big Q factor is. Isn't this true? If you have calculated P, then Xl or Xc in resonance is X=Xl=Xc=Q*P (VAr) and we call it reactive power, that are basics. Tesla used this on bigger scale, changed it in open RLC circuit, optimised it (spiral form of coil) and instead one wire used Earth itself. By not disturbing resonance and picking up energy longitudinaly, he converted VAr to W ! That is explanation of Teslas overunity.
If you do not belive in longitudinal receiver, how could his bulb light in short circuit like on picture 183c?

Magluvin · « **Reply #505 on:** December 01, 2010, 06:35:22 PM »

Thanks Delboy, makes sense.

Question, is there a minimum charge voltage recommended for discharge? As in, can this be accomplished discharging 500v vs 50,000v.

Trying to stay small here. =]

Thanks again

Mags

delboy · « **Reply #506 on:** December 01, 2010, 07:00:55 PM »

Quote from: Magluvin on December 01, 2010, 06:35:22 PM

Thanks Delboy, makes sense.

Question, is there a minimum charge voltage recommended for discharge? As in, can this be accomplished discharging 500v vs 50,000v.

Trying to stay small here. =]

Thanks again
Mags

Hmmm, to have enough V/m (volts per meter) you have to have high voltage and high frequency. How high? Well read Teslas recommendations for bulb, for example, in his patent 454622 he says lowest practicable limits are 15kHz and 20kV.
That is of course on secondary, but if you asked on primary than approx. it should be divided by Q factor of secondary

For example 20kV / 200 = 100 Volts

forest · « **Reply #507 on:** December 01, 2010, 09:33:31 PM »

delboy

Now I can agree with you.Except it needs pure unidirectional energy transfer and the physical meaning was found lately ! It is 100% efficient energy transfer without BEMF based on quantum transition from primary to secondary.

Magluvin · « **Reply #508 on:** December 02, 2010, 12:46:55 AM »

Hey Delboy

Lets say the primary is a few turns, If we discharge 100v into it, what amount of turns are we looking for on the sec. ? And should it be of the traditional Tesla coil look and type, or are we looking at a Kapanadze style? Spacing between windings?
Bifilar? Is there any need for bifi here? =]

I saw a vid yesterday that a guy had a setup like a Tesla coil laying horizontally, and the output was maybe developing a 1/8 inch spark but continuous, then he applied 1 single primary wire from a step down transformer, and a light bulb lit very bright on the secondary of the step down transformer. The secondary was only 4 turns of some heavy speaker wire on what looked to be a ferrite core. The primary looked like many turns of fine wire of witch only 1 end was used to make connection with the driver Tesla coil. Does this qualify as a good connection between the 2? Or as per the pics above, use caps in series to connect both wires?

Thanks Delboy. You have been a big help. ;]

Mags

Magluvin · « **Reply #509 on:** December 02, 2010, 05:18:29 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRQkRYXtob8

Here is the vid. I tried the neon transformer on a large 110v to 12v transformer. 1 wire nada. Both wires nada . 1 wire and a spark gap on the other, nada. But, 2 560pf 1kv caps in series, with 1 wire and direct with the other wire, we have light. Not as bright as 12v would do, but it lit. I know this is just a very rough way to try it, but I found what worked and didnt, for what I had at the time.
Also the primary of the transformer is high ohms. But I was surprised that the neon about 2kv at 45khz actually affected the transformer as good as it did, considering it is designed more toward 60hz.

Wound a large inductor with 23awg wire for igniter circuit. Will give it a go tomorrow

Mags

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Author Topic: Electrical igniter for gas engines A keystone to understanding by Magluvin (Read 250949 times)

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