Author Topic: Joule Thief 101 (Read 944350 times)

MileHigh · « **Reply #855 on:** March 12, 2016, 02:19:10 AM »

Yes indeed, Farmhand's posting was great.

I suppose there is some merit in what you have to say but there was more than one person resonating. There is a very familiar resonant drone about the magical benefits of resonance. It's a drone that has been sounding for years, people going in circles. I tried to destabilize the "harmony of going in circles." So the question is will people continue to drone on walking around in the same old circles, or will somebody break free?

Magluvin · « **Reply #856 on:** March 12, 2016, 02:27:26 AM »

Well why not make a thread about the subject you want to prove with the wine glass? If nobody shows up, then you will know how many people are interested in the subject?

And all the page after page, day after day will be dead on topic and most everything on resonance with a wine glass will be there.

Here it is about joule thief basics. 101. So maybe if its all here on the basics, I dont see a problem with adding more to those basics, as it is a joule thief circuit we are dealing with.

But just because someone says that we can reach resonant freq with these and they light the leds longer that way, doesnt mean you have to push prod and never ending pestering of others here to do your bidding.

You try to belittle Brad for a missing hyphen in a word. For what?? Shall I go back and find some of your misspellings and point them out to, who? The readers? Or were you just trying to make Brad feel bad??? What was your intention there, really?

? What was the goal you had in pointing that out?

??

I see just a couple posts back you use the word 'retarded' and not in the meaning of timing of an ICE. What if someone here has someone in their family that has problems that can be associated with that word, like down syndrome, etc. Do you believe that word is socially correct these days? Do you not know that you could be offending others here?? Anywhere?? Maybe you have more to learn about communicating with people properly than most everyone here.

I just pm Stefan about a moderated thread and I told him my main reason for the request. I cannot let you in that thread to do what you do. Cant work like that. Make a thread where you can make comments or whatever about my thread. But you wont do it in mine.

Well thats all the time I have for this back and forth tonight. Got bench?

Mags

MileHigh · « **Reply #857 on:** March 12, 2016, 02:44:40 AM »

We need balance, now do a rant about Brad and Chet.

The debate is essentially over, and the wine glass came up in the discussion. You definitely should want to understand how a wine glass resonates, especially considering how simple it is.

You don't need a moderated thread, because I won't post on any thread you start.

Magluvin · « **Reply #858 on:** March 12, 2016, 02:45:00 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on March 12, 2016, 01:48:58 AM

P.S.: The real reason I joined this thread was to try to get you guys to educate yourselves and get you to ask yourselves some critical questions about a Joule Thief and resonance. Is a Joule Thief designed to resonate? What does it mean for a Joule Thief to resonate? Should I just presume that a "resonant Joule Thief" will give me better performance before I take a long and hard look at that idea? Are we truly talking about resonance or it is something that looks like resonance? Before I look for resonance in a Joule Thief can I explain it and describe it for a common everyday example of resonance? How am I going to define better performance?

And I have been partially successful at getting you guys to do some critical thinking about what the whole thing means.

"The real reason I joined this thread was to try to get you guys to educate yourselves and get you to ask yourselves some critical questions about a Joule Thief and resonance."

But maybe nobody had done that before here. Maybe nobody was even looking for it. Maybe if the led wasnt lighting with higher resistances, then they just lowered the resistance till it lit to their liking, not fathoming that there could be a resonant freq in the transformer that could be reached by scanning that no light from the led area of the resistor scan. And maybe someone said they have done it finally. Says they will help in getting us to see it happen. But your distraction is fogging the whole idea into a wine glass contest. Do I have to count the pages let alone the posts? There are sooo many other threads that people are reading and putting money into experimenting blowing way more of their poor old sucker dollars than in this thread. Yet, and do I have to quote you, you do it here to help the readers save money. But certainly not their time as they read on day after day. Have you seen the readership in this thread?

Again. Im waisting time. Got Bench?

Mags

MileHigh · « **Reply #859 on:** March 12, 2016, 02:52:56 AM »

I am a member of Bench Experimenter's Anonymous.

The money issue is a straw man argument. I never said anything about that. It takes more than one person to post in a thread - balance balance balance. Good luck on your research and the wine glass questions stand and anybody is welcome to give it a shot.

Magluvin · « **Reply #860 on:** March 12, 2016, 02:55:48 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on March 12, 2016, 01:48:58 AM

P.S.: The real reason I joined this thread was to try to get you guys to educate yourselves and get you to ask yourselves some critical questions about a Joule Thief and resonance.

Just reading over my post, I have one more thing to say.....

The only thing you had to say in the beginning was that the is no resonance available in a JT. Then it was that the capacitance in the windings is insignificant. Not at the freq smoky was telling us of.

We can learn a lot more about resonance as a team by experimenting together and each happening on different things and ways of going about it.

But you will not let that happen. You want the thread to go in your direction. Misdirection that is. How can I look at it all these past weeks and think any differently? Its all so visibly clear that you dont want us to do the job. And as long as we try you will be there with pages of posts separating everything that has to do with the job making it a huge mess to read over.

Got Bench?

Mags

ramset · « **Reply #861 on:** March 12, 2016, 02:56:58 AM »

Actually
Farmhand
your a motor head ,have you ever seen 8 HP per cubic inch on a normally aspirated recip ?
yes it can be argued that the rpm is taking normally aspirated out of the equation.

so what ?? it takes a cavity resonant system to a whole new level and should not be possible [in the books]

And sea Monkey as far as the Buzz bomb engine goes ..there is no engine without the resonance
that is the sole defining operating principle ..and one of the simplest ICE's there is ?

which is exactly why I showed MH the Monstrous hole in his "Brad your an idiot for saying resonance has anything to do with an ICE " argument.
and to be perfectly Clear just one of many holes...
MANY !!

and Johans point is that these huge resonant pressure waves are opening new paths to understanding

and just getting started .

resonance and good ICE design go hand in hand
will MH apologize for his ignorant attack on Brad

calling him all manner of insults for claiming this ??

that will never happen ....

something to do with Karma ??
*
I see mh's post below about scrapping
you call him all manner of insults because of YOUR ignorance on resonance
publicly use this to try and humiliate him

YOUR IGNORANCE ??
and you wonder why he's upset ?? and wants to get all Footbally on you ??

you self righteous Putz

MileHigh · « **Reply #862 on:** March 12, 2016, 03:02:00 AM »

Quote

You want the thread to go in your direction.

Brad wanted to scrap like a football hooligan and just this one time I decided to stand my ground. That's what determined the direction of the thread. The truth behind people's true character comes out in times like that.

So, time to move on and do your thing.

Magluvin · « **Reply #863 on:** March 12, 2016, 03:07:28 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on March 12, 2016, 03:02:00 AM

Brad wanted to scrap like a football hooligan and just this one time I decided to stand my ground. That's what determined the direction of the thread. The truth behind people's true character comes out in times like that.

So, time to move on and do your thing.

Ok. And thanks

Mags

SeaMonkey · « **Reply #864 on:** March 12, 2016, 03:31:14 AM »

Quote from: RamSet

calling him all manner of insults for claiming this ??

When arguments are presented in the course of a
discussion I never take what some would think an
"insult" seriously or personally. People get excited and
often say the darndest things. Banter can be very
colorful indeed. In most cases it is just a matter of
good friends throwing colorful language at each other.
Sailors and Marines do that constantly. It's all in good
spirit and just a show.

By the way, I agree about the reciprocating engine. It
is an oscillator and it does resonate. A tunable variable
frequency oscillator. In fact there may be more than one
resonance at work at any given time as the engine is
running. Some have built in anti-resonance dampers to
minimize the stresses.

Pirate88179 · « **Reply #865 on:** March 12, 2016, 03:35:27 AM »

OK

About the wine glass. There are still a lot of variables unaccounted for.

For example:

Is the woman holding the wine glass pretty? Is she married or available? Is she of average weight or packing "a few extra pounds"?
What is her hair color? Is that her natural color? Is that actually her hair?

Now for the wine:

Is this a red or white wine?
Is it vintage? Or did it come out of a box? Was it dry or sweet? Is it a blended wine?

Now for the environment:

Was it raining outside? What was the humidity? Dew point? Barometer reading? Was it hot? Or freezing cold?

Now for the stimulus to break the wine glass:

Was it Ella Fitzgerald? Was it a Memorex tape? If you could not tell the difference, would you buy a Memorex tape?

MH's question about the wine glass is no where as simple as people might think. We have not even discussed the composition of the glass...
was it crystal? Or just cheap lead glass? Had this glass ever received any impacts to its surface that might compromise its structural integrity? ( ie was it ever dropped or scratched?)

Anyway, I am not sure why we are discussing wine glasses when the topic of the day is JT resonance...is it possible? Is it desirable? If so...why?

Bill

Magluvin · « **Reply #866 on:** March 12, 2016, 04:22:50 AM »

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 12, 2016, 03:35:27 AM

OK

About the wine glass. There are still a lot of variables unaccounted for.

For example:

Is the woman holding the wine glass pretty? Is she married or available? Is she of average weight or packing "a few extra pounds"?
What is her hair color? Is that her natural color? Is that actually her hair?

Now for the wine:

Is this a red or white wine?
Is it vintage? Or did it come out of a box? Was it dry or sweet? Is it a blended wine?

Now for the environment:

Was it raining outside? What was the humidity? Dew point? Barometer reading? Was it hot? Or freezing cold?

Now for the stimulus to break the wine glass:

Was it Ella Fitzgerald? Was it a Memorex tape? If you could not tell the difference, would you buy a Memorex tape?

MH's question about the wine glass is no where as simple as people might think. We have not even discussed the composition of the glass...
was it crystal? Or just cheap lead glass? Had this glass ever received any impacts to its surface that might compromise its structural integrity? ( ie was it ever dropped or scratched?)

Anyway, I am not sure why we are discussing wine glasses when the topic of the day is JT resonance...is it possible? Is it desirable? If so...why?

Bill

"Anyway, I am not sure why we are discussing wine glasses when the topic of the day is JT resonance...is it possible? Is it desirable? If so...why?"

Well Im hoping to find out what resonance here will do. What Im imagining is when we turn the resistor down, below the point of the led being lit at all, that as we see the trace on the scope becoming less and less, down to the point of it being a sine wave, as Smoky claimed and I have reached so far, that if we hit the resonant freq of the winding/transformer, its ring at the resonant freq will be much stronger than we see on the trace above or below the resonant freq.

Like if we put a small speaker say an inch above a guitar strings and drive the speaker at the freq of one of the strings, that string will vibrate. Change the freq to another string and that string will vibrate. So what we will look for is getting the JT circuit to try and run at a freq the transformer/winding/core likes to ring at and hopefully it is enough to run the led at the cost of lower input compared to ho the JT works as we know it now.

Like a standard wall transformer 120v to 12v. It doesnt operate at a resonant freq. But if it was run at resonant freq, would there be a difference in efficiency if we used that transformer at its resonant freq, of which will always be some freq above 60hz, and more like way above 60hz. But a standard transformer has too many losses, especially at high freq with the laminated cores.

Anyway, back to work.

Mags

Magluvin · « **Reply #867 on:** March 12, 2016, 04:52:44 AM »

Something ive been thinking about for some time. It fits the topic because it is involved with the transformer function.

If we have a rod core, with say the primary on one end and a secondary on the other, where the pri and sec are not overlapped, when we put an ac input to the primary, loading the secondary should have the secondary producing an opposing field to the primary. No?

So with a toroid core, with primary on one side of the core and the secondary on the other side, when the primary induces the loaded secondary, and the secondary produces an opposing field, there is no longer a loop of field in the core as there should be both windings having their N pole fields facing each other in the core, and likewise the S pole fields opposing at the other end of the core in the open face of the core between the ends of the primary and secondary windings.

So it wouldnt be that the core is just saturated by increasing continuous loop of field in the core, it is sort of separating the core field holdings and we should be able to see field leakage N at one side of the core between the 2 windings ans S at the other during a half phase of operation, and the opposite happens at the open spaces of the core between the 2 windings.

Maybe im just tired.

If it is so, it would seem we didnt know that before?

Mags

Pirate88179 · « **Reply #868 on:** March 12, 2016, 04:55:39 AM »

Well, I appreciate your research efforts.

As far as resonance goes...what will resonate? The toroid? the coil windings on the toroid? The entire JT circuit?

I do not pretend to know the answer. I have now learned that when I was tuning my simple JT circuits, it was not to resonance, but to a sweet spot, which evidently is different. What I really think is going to happen is....just like the 2 stroke motor hitting resonance using a tuned exhaust pipe, we might see that the JT circuit hits resonance with a small part of the circuit just as the exhaust is only a small part of the gas engine.

As far as a tank circuit goes, we have made JT circuits (Thanks to Gadgetmall) with a cap at the base of the transistor. Would this make a "tank" circuit then? (I really do not know, I am asking) I just watched a good video last night done by Colin's Lab (From Adafruit) where he showed how energy was stored in an inductor...like in a capacitor so, does that mean that when using an inductor that we now have capacitance and therefore, resonance might play a part in efficiency? I do not think that anyone here is claiming O.U. from resonance in a JT circuit...however...I can feel MH's pain as you do not have to go very far on Youtube to see resonance listed as a KEY to OVERUNITY.

I think, and I am not speaking for him, this is my opinion, that MH is a bit sensitive to the resonance claims because, most of the time, the are linked to overunity, and he knows better. The arguments going on here now are a bit different but, I will say that the word "resonance" has been abused here on this forum, on Youtube, Peswiki, and many other forums that you could name.

I do not think that Tinman, Smokey, or anyone else here has claimed that resonance is the key to overunity...just added efficiency. (Which I agree with) So, it does not matter if it is a wine glass, ICE, toroid, or something else, we just need to move on and discuss things that might help us move forward.

Am I saying wineglass schmimglass?

Yes, I guess I am.

Bill

Magluvin · « **Reply #869 on:** March 12, 2016, 05:18:30 AM »

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 12, 2016, 04:55:39 AM

Well, I appreciate your research efforts.

As far as resonance goes...what will resonate? The toroid? the coil windings on the toroid? The entire JT circuit?

I do not pretend to know the answer. I have now learned that when I was tuning my simple JT circuits, it was not to resonance, but to a sweet spot, which evidently is different. What I really think is going to happen is....just like the 2 stroke motor hitting resonance using a tuned exhaust pipe, we might see that the JT circuit hits resonance with a small part of the circuit just as the exhaust is only a small part of the gas engine.

As far as a tank circuit goes, we have made JT circuits (Thanks to Gadgetmall) with a cap at the base of the transistor. Would this make a "tank" circuit then? (I really do not know, I am asking) I just watched a good video last night done by Colin's Lab (From Adafruit) where he showed how energy was stored in an inductor...like in a capacitor so, does that mean that when using an inductor that we now have capacitance and therefore, resonance might play a part in efficiency? I do not think that anyone here is claiming O.U. from resonance in a JT circuit...however...I can feel MH's pain as you do not have to go very far on Youtube to see resonance listed as a KEY to OVERUNITY.

I think, and I am not speaking for him, this is my opinion, that MH is a bit sensitive to the resonance claims because, most of the time, the are linked to overunity, and he knows better. The arguments going on here now are a bit different but, I will say that the word "resonance" has been abused here on this forum, on Youtube, Peswiki, and many other forums that you could name.

I do not think that Tinman, Smokey, or anyone else here has claimed that resonance is the key to overunity...just added efficiency. (Which I agree with) So, it does not matter if it is a wine glass, ICE, toroid, or something else, we just need to move on and discuss things that might help us move forward.

Am I saying wineglass schmimglass?

Yes, I guess I am.

Bill

From what I got from this is that possibly hitting the resonance of the windings, what ever their inductance, and their capacitance, which can ring and have a resonant freq that is determined by those values. These freq are up there in the mhz. And possibly get the core to resonate of which is a much higher freq.

So I believe we aim for those goals to see what we see.

What I was getting at with the guitar was if the speaker is at a freq of the first string, the others will remain relatively still in comparison to the first string. So all that sound energy from the speaker will move the other strings, but no where near their tuned freq. So if we play the speaker at C note and we have 1 string on the guitar and it is tuned at A, there would be a lot of wasted energy from the speaker if our objective is to move the string with the speaker. But if we play the speaker at the strings tuned freq, then our objective is achieved in a big way with the same input power.

Now we look at the transformer. If we hit the primary up with 60hz, and the secondary has a 1mhz resonant freq, then we must be wasting lots of power trying to get the secondary to provide output. Where if we were to input the resonant freq of the secondary, there should be more activity in the secondary than at 60hz. Seems to make sense. No?

Im just getting a grip on it more recently.

Mags

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