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Solid States Devices => Joule Thief => Topic started by: resonanceman on November 23, 2009, 04:18:06 AM

Title: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 23, 2009, 04:18:06 AM
This  thread is intended  to be a place for  people to learn the basics of how to make a JT ( Joule Thief )  and  what can  be done with them .

This thread is not to be used for asking  questions or  casual  dialog .   This thread is to be kept short  and clean .  The  goal  is to pack  as much  knowledge into a few dozen pages .

With the  recent turn of events  and  the possibility  of  proving  OU new people are bound  to show up .      It is not reasonable  to expect them to read 1000 pages  before asking a questions .
It is also not reasonable  for  the new people to expect us  to drop everything and answer  the most  basic questions .........over and over .

The schematic  below  is  a basic JT
It is shown  using  a 2n3904  but  2n2222s  and many other  transistors  have a proven  track record .   

The schematic  shows  a 1K resistor going to the base of the  transistor   I recommend using a potentiometer   ( Pot ) in  place of the  resistor .  In  real  life it is  a good idea to  sweep the whole  range of the  pot  each time  you make a change in the circuit .

ALmost any toroid can be used .
Low permeability  toroids are easier, they require less turns of the primary .
By the way .......the  2 windings shown  in this drawing  are the JT primary . 

One  thing that  causes alot  of  confusion   with new people  are the dots  drawn  at the top and bottom of the  coils .
I do not know the technical name for them .   I call them marks.
When  you are winding  your  toroid  use something to mark  either the starting end or the finishing end of both wires ..   Magic marker,   nail  polish, paint ........anything to mark the end.

WInd both wires together   as if they  were one . Try  6 or 8 wraps at first .   A very high perm toroid may  need more, a low perm  toroid  will work with less.

When  you  are  donw winding   find  the marks you made on the ends of the wire.

You should  have  2 wires on each  side of the toroid .
One side  will be wires with marks.   The other side  will be wires with no marks.
Take   one of the wires with marks and connect it to  one of the other wires with no marks .

The  Positive  side of the battery  is connected to  the 2 wires you  just  connected together.

The end  of one of these coils  is connected  to the longer  lead on your LED.
The other  coil connects to your pot  which  then connects to the base of the  transistor.

You now have  one of  the 3 wires of the  transistor  connected.
Connect  the  one of the other  wires  on the transistor  to   the same  end of the coil that you connected  the long lead of the LED to  ( at the same spot )

Connect  the  short lead  on your LED  the 3rd wire on your transistor   and   the negative side of your battery together ....... If you did all this  right  , you now  have a working JT

I will leave the  technical  terms to others .   In  theory   you have to  have the  transistor  hooked up  properly ..... in real life it  works  either way . Just  make sure you get the  base  hooked up right . ( at least  with a 3904 and 2222 )




Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 23, 2009, 04:41:06 AM
This  schematic  shows the basic  JT  with  a capicitor ( cap )  added  across  the  resistor  to make   a simple  RC tank .   
I always  have  use a  tank when  first  trying  a new toroid .  Some  toroids  will work without  a tank .......some will not   
I have never seen  a toroid  that would  not  work  with a tank circuit in place .     I have seen quite a few that  stop when the cap is removed .
I usually  start  with  a 1uF cap  but  a .1 sometimes  is better .


Another thing added to the basic  JT in this  drawing is a secondary .
A  JT  by itself is a novelty .     
It is the secondary that  makes  the JT interesting.
What  can  you get done with it ?
How much  voltage can you make ?

There may  be  many  secondarys  on  a JT
The  secondarys   are always  closed loops in and of themselves.  There is no electical connection to the  primarys.
The primarys ( the original 2 windings of the JT )  are called primarys  because they  are  what makes the  JT work .   
The  secondarys are also called takeoffs .......because they are used to take off power.


gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 23, 2009, 04:55:10 AM
I found these helpful
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 23, 2009, 04:59:56 AM
Gary:

Great topic!  And very timely too.  You boiled it all down to simple steps.  So now, no one can say they can't make a joule thief.

Great job!

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: xee2 on November 23, 2009, 05:20:50 AM
@ resonanceman

More recently, the "secondary coil" in the above diagram has also been called a "pickup coil" instead of a "secondary coil". Although both terms are used. This is because there can be more than one pickup coil used and it does not make sense to have several secondary coils.



Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: xee2 on November 23, 2009, 05:38:24 AM
A common question is, "how can I make a Joule thief that lights a fluorescent tube"? Well, there are many ways. I think this is probably the simplest.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on November 23, 2009, 06:45:45 AM
At this moment the only thing I want to add is this excellent picture made by makezine.
There is a pdf that you can download that goes along with their excellent video.
Of course it is the basic joule thief, not the kind most of us are now making but the first one everyone should make.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)
I say watch this 3 times. (5 minute video)
1- all through
2- return to 1:09 and watch till the jokes at the end. Really focus this time.
3- return again to 1:09 and as you watch it pause and try to predict what comes next, and start making it. You can keep it buffered while you make it too.

jeanna

In this pic you can clearly see that the 2 wires are different colors, and you are connecting the end of one of them to the beginning of the other.
I believe this is the mistake most often made by first jt makers, so watch carefully.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: WattBuilder on November 23, 2009, 07:34:24 AM
ALL,

Due to the different experience levels that one may have.
Those of you who are attempting to build this circuit or larger circuits.
Remember to take the time for    SAFETY FIRST !!!

Accidents due happen.
High voltage does KILL
Capacitors due EXPLODE

Make sure proper grounding is used.
Make sure your face is shielded if not at least your eyes.
It’s wise to have a buddy around just incase of emergency’s

Please take the time to research safety and there is no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to safety.    Just ask.

Finally, remember to have fun!!!    Your building a really cool circuit.   

Howard
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sierraloewe on November 23, 2009, 09:17:53 AM
Hey great topic!

Could somebody say something in regards to the wire gauge and turn count on primaries and secondaries?

Is it better to have a thicker wire gauge with fewer turns on the primary and thinner wire with more turns on the secondaries?

How might proportion affect efficiency?

Does it matter how tight or loose the wire is wrapped?
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 23, 2009, 02:07:33 PM
Hey great topic!

Could somebody say something in regards to the wire gauge and turn count on primaries and secondaries?

Is it better to have a thicker wire gauge with fewer turns on the primary and thinner wire with more turns on the secondaries?

How might proportion affect efficiency?

Does it matter how tight or loose the wire is wrapped?

Loosely wrapped wires will make the torroids sing.  Having a larger number of winding on the secondary will create a larger voltage, the ratio on the primaries should be, but is not limited to 1:1, remember though that the current through the primary going to the collecter will be greater than the primary going to the base and thus the waveform on the secondary will be slightly offset ( thus it is more like pulsed DC than 'trued' AC.  ( innovation_station has found ways around this )).
- - - -
Rationalized Schematics and Alternative Designs ( by me, these have been tested and do work ).

edit:

I was going to post more, but these should do for now. Currently I'm testing deviations of the circuit; though I lack super or ultra caps, I'll be writing up instructions of my own some time for the resistor-less circuits.

The images below are old, each representation of the winding should have a shared core ( as a line between them, more like in the original post ).  My software is limited to Linux..and thus the output is hard to perfect.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 02:22:07 AM
I do not have much time for adding  stuff here at the moment .
I thought  if  others here are like me they probably  will  be courious  about  kinds of things  you can make a JT with .

I thought  I would  post a few pictures  of some of the JTs I have made .
Maybe   one of  these pictures will give someone an idea .

 The first is  made  from the  around 150 ft of cat 5  cable
I used one  pair  as a primary  the  other  pairs  as a secondary .

The  light  is  a LED array that I got out of  a LED floodlight
The box  said  it used 5 W  and replaces a 45 W floodlight .
I use   this kind  of  array alot .


gary


Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 02:40:44 AM
The  first picture is  a JT  coil made  with  the core of a flyback   transformer .
Notice  that the  primarys  The  white and  blue wires  are in the  MK2 style
3 wraps of each  wire on each end of the  core.

More on  styles of primarys later .
 

The  second and third  are of  an experment  with feeback and flyback.
I am lighting  a 25 W CFL  and  a 90 LED array . 
The  coil  above  is powering these lights .
Changing  one  wire  changed the balance of the circuit  causing a shift in  where most of the power  was  going .

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on November 24, 2009, 03:01:42 AM
Hey great topic!

Could somebody say something in regards to the wire gauge and turn count on primaries and secondaries?

Is it better to have a thicker wire gauge with fewer turns on the primary and thinner wire with more turns on the secondaries?

How might proportion affect efficiency?

Does it matter how tight or loose the wire is wrapped?
Hi sierraloewe,
After you have made your first jt and it works, then it is time to delve into those questions.

Follow the makezine or evilmadscientist youtube as closely as you can.

The gauge I use for the primary bifilar is 24awg. I got this from a telephone extension cord.
The length you will need to make this first one will be about 14 inches of each wire.
 This depends on the fatness and diameter of your toroid, so this is just a guess. (I use a small one and it takes 11 inches of each wire and is very generous.)

After you have made a plain joule thief make a second one exactly the same way. Put the led into the led spot but do not solder it.
Remove the led when you prove that the circuit works.
Now, wind a secondary.
The choice of gauge for the secondary is up to you.
The thinner wire will make higher voltage, but the problem with really thin wire (like 30awg from radio shack) is the insulation is easily scratched. If it gets scratched you will have little to no voltage from your output.
One more thing about the secondary.
The side of the primary that connects to the collector coil is the part that is being "transformed" so, if you have 10 turns on the collector side (you do now if you are following the makezine video) Then double that will be 20. So, make your first secondary with 20 turns.
This will give you a starting point for reference voltages.

Now, you have 2 very useful circuits.
1-the plain jt is the best way to get the last bit of joules out of the battery. It makes a terrific emergency light.
2- The battery needs to be a little higher for the secondary to work. There are exceptions to this, but most of the ones that use a secondary run down after the battery is at about 1.1v.
So, you use the jt with secondary then when it is no longer bright you switch that battery to the plain jt.
This does not apply to a rechargeable battery.
Do not use a rechargeable in a plain jt, because it is not good for batteries to be so thoroughly drained.
 (I could never figure out why but it seems to be so.)

After you have made these 2 you can start experimenting.

I have found that it is very important to make the wires wound snugly onto the toroid.
It is possible to have a good one that is loosely wound but if you want high voltage... get it tight around and try to have as many winds as you can actually in contact with the ferrite.

(I believe there is a difference in opinion about loosely wound together, but this is not about wound together, this is about being tightly wound on the toroid itself.)

That toroid is a powerful source of "something" that makes high volts.

I hope this helps.

jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 03:34:28 AM
Here is one  with made  with a  complete  flyback transformer .

Just map out   the continuity  and the  resistance of the  coil   Then  choose your  windings .
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 03:42:49 AM
There is  a MOT  ( microwave over  transformer )  as a JT

This is  using  1.5 V
I have not  tried  this  with 12 V yet




Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 04:08:12 AM
This is  what  I call a long wire JT

The  JT coil is nothing more than  about 6 Ft of  twisted pair wire .
The  first  picture is   just  the  longwire JT  lighting  a single LED

The second picture is   the same  wire with few  wraps  of it around  a toroid .  The  secondary of  the  toroid is powering the LED array .

The 3rd picture  is  of the same  setup  with  2 more  toroids  with both of these the   secondarys   are being used for   feedback .

The  toroids I used for this were  not wrapped  just for this  test.
I removed the primary windings   and  wrapped  a few turns   of  the longwire JT  where their  primarys  had been.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 04:25:37 AM
About   using heavy  or light  wire.

I find that with my JTs  wire guage  is not  very important on the primmarys.
I  do not  push the limits of the primarys
I intentionally   keep my  transistor biased at  well under  half power  so that it runs  cool.


If    you think you might  need  heavier  wire for your secondary ........ I suggest   you use several  smaller  wires  wrapped  as one .   It gives you many more options   
The  windings can then  be used all in parallel  series parallel or  in series .........or separately

gary

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 04:34:20 AM
g


i just love the jt longwire...   8)

thats the koolest 1 i have seen yet ...

great work!   

w
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 04:45:55 AM
g


i just love the jt longwire...   8)

thats the koolest 1 i have seen yet ...

great work!   

w


IST

It took me a while to  understand   how to use it ...........but   now that I have thought about it a while .......there  is a bunch of  ways   you can use  a wire once you get it pulsing .

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on November 24, 2009, 05:10:50 AM
Is this really 101?
-----

I have made a picture of 4 toroids wound in various ways.
This is just to share the size and variety possible.
I did not include the enormous 3 1/2 inch one.
On the top left is one wound in the "normal" fashion. The black and white are the primary bifilar.

On the upper right is an example of one that is hard to use experimentally because it is all the same color. I cannot tell the primary bifilar from the secondary without a magnifying lens.

On the lower left is my favorite.
This is 0.5 inch and the other day I was able to wind it to produce enough to light a neon or a string of 32 christmas lights. 172 volts.

The lower right shows the medium 5/$1. I found the best tuning for it is 5T to the base and 6T to the collector.

Both the toroids on the right show a little trick that helps when the secondary wire is so thin it doesn't want to stay in a breadboard, or it breaks. Solder a short piece of 24awg telephone wire to it and it works... until it breaks off.  ;)

j
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 06:10:40 AM
Is this really 101?

j

Jeanna

Yes    that is the name .

If it ends up meaning  anything depends on the whole  group

It may look like  I am  only trying to show  people what I have done .
That is not the point .
The  reason for  this  thread is to try to  get people up to speed .
I can not teach  people what I do  not understand .

I can show people what  I know and  try to get them to think ......that is the  best I can do.

If this  thread is  to be of any real help to  others   we  will need  others  to share  some of what they know ......  Others  have did many things  I have not done .........I will  not  try to explain any of those things because I do not   understand  them  well enough .

gary


Edit

for  this  thread   to  be of much help we will also have to keep the posts like this one to a minimum.   
Most of the posts  should  have the intent of  helping someone  understand  something about   a JT better .

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 06:13:38 AM
double post deleated
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 06:43:53 AM
i have over 2500 pictures  of coils and such i have wound scope shots all that stuff
im just a little too left handed to have it all neat and tidy ..

air core
iron core
copper core
feroite
steel ie screw nail .. whatever ..

i have built all of thease ..

they all work it is almost impossible to not build 1 that works lol

i even used all steel wire the darn thing still worked

ill round up some pictures .. of odd things i have done and add them in this thred 

all are basic jt's  if you go air core on a solder spool you can go iron wire center pickup.. then you go tesla hair pin!! bridge the gap out to the cap ...    :D lmao

and bang it slower .. power right off garden wire ..

the thing is you cant go wrong .. 

i have used silver wire all diffrent gages .. and many many cores every colour ...

magnets no magnets  1 2 3 freq rappid seccussion  random wild ..

npn pnp 

i colud literly go on and on ..  all work the same ...

w

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 07:39:12 AM
here is a picture of my accidental tesla mini jt...

displaying radient spark from 1 wire ..

rectified and here is the youtube video ...

quick cold charge!

db107 bridge

ist!  i forgot to mention this can be dubbled for output .. this is only 1 side and i can put as many as fit on that core ..  however i so desire ...

was over 500v till the kick back from the cfl ;) fryed it ...
http://www.youtube.com/user/innovationstation#p/u/6/psRWo7wwtK0
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 07:56:45 AM
here are some random simple jt's

is
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 08:00:16 AM
more..

is
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 24, 2009, 08:43:27 AM
Photo By Jesus
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 09:23:30 AM
here are a few 2 freq scpoe shots from a basic jt this is what happins when you intrurpt a jt ..

running at its natural freq!  8) :o

basic jt scope shots

ist

see my FAST CAR... jumpping across the screen?   this is a 2 freq RECONNECT ON SCOPE  8) 8) 8) 8) :P
time travel .. thats all  or transportation ..   just the boring stuff ya know ..  :D
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Groundloop on November 24, 2009, 12:07:52 PM
All,

Here is my version of the JT.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: otto on November 24, 2009, 12:26:08 PM
Hello all,

WOOOOOW, so nice JTs!

And not 1 pf of stray capacitance.

Maybe a bigger diameter of your cores with coils?

Otto
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 06:13:41 PM
Hello all,

WOOOOOW, so nice JTs!

And not 1 pf of stray capacitance.

Maybe a bigger diameter of your cores with coils?

Otto

hello old friend ! welcome to wonderland!

like this?

 ;D

w814

this is my gold ring .. this is the coil im soon gonna build public with whoever wants to build it ..

were gonna grab the electric car market with this thing ...  :o :o :o :o

what is showen here is the 140mm W material core . i have spoke of  it is resonant at 1.5khz.. the last picture has 60 outputs...  basic MK2 IST 60 Config..

this core first had to be tuned!  5 TURN BASIC JT!  8)

what you see showen in my driver pic .. is npn pnp switching  this drives my first picture  it is my

SKY
808
  COIL this coil is sync banging rotating 2 freq and 2 phase it has built in recovery and i flip phases  it is perpetual by coil winding and switching operation

THIS IS THE MOST ADVANCED COIL EXPOSED PUBLIC ON THE PLANET!
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 06:28:49 PM
here is a picture of my accidental tesla mini jt...

displaying radient spark from 1 wire ..

rectified and here is the youtube video ...

quick cold charge!

db107 bridge

ist!  i forgot to mention this can be dubbled for output .. this is only 1 side and i can put as many as fit on that core ..  however i so desire ...

was over 500v till the kick back from the cfl ;) fryed it ...
http://www.youtube.com/user/innovationstation#p/u/6/psRWo7wwtK0

IST

That  primary is  one I have never seen before .
It is like  half  of a MK2 only  wound  with  a twisted pair .   

Very nice   :)


What  size is the wire for the secondary ?
I am guessing  #30

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 06:35:59 PM
it was super fine im thinking 34ga

more pictures comeing ..

i have lots.. 

i have been unable to find the solder spool ones!

ill have to dig out a box full of em  then ill snap a few pics. ;D

w
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: broli on November 24, 2009, 07:10:42 PM
What's the purpose of the capacitor in parallel with the resistor?
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 07:12:10 PM
it was super fine im thinking 34ga

more pictures comeing ..

i have lots.. 

i have been unable to find the solder spool ones!



ill have to dig out a box full of em  then ill snap a few pics. ;D

w


IST

Great pictures   :)

I look forward to  seeing more .


I have a request .
This  thead  is  for learning.
The  pictures  are great  but  do you  think  you could  add a few words about  these JTs.
I DO NOT want complete specs .......  just a few words .
Maybe  what is unique about it .........or  why it was hard to make .
Ir why it was a first  for you. .......
Your pictures  can  be  turned into a VERY  valuable  teaching tool with  just a few words of description about each coil

:)

I am also  courious  about some of them,
If you don;t   choose to say anything on your own   I might  ask  you  questions about them .......I imagin I could  finish posting  all my questions within a week  or so .

:)


gary

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 07:18:38 PM
sounds great!

i have seen cap is not needed on input ..

some will argue this it is because they want the thing to run on 1 ma for months...

no concern for my designs

i put the tesla mini .. first .. as it is the best one i have made   ;)

infact not seen another yet!  if you had 2 outputs like that coil then recitifer 1 from each side ..  intresting results as it is mk2 winding config..  there out of phase of 1 another cold ac ?

w

here is a picture of yet another way it can be done  and if you tune the coils to 7.xx hz  might be intresting or perhaps a magnet
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 24, 2009, 07:35:27 PM
it was super fine im thinking 34ga

more pictures comeing ..

i have lots.. 

i have been unable to find the solder spool ones!



ill have to dig out a box full of em  then ill snap a few pics. ;D

w


IST

Great pictures   :)

I look forward to  seeing more .


I have a request .
This  thead  is  for learning.
The  pictures  are great  but  do you  think  you could  add a few words about  these JTs.
I DO NOT want complete specs .......  just a few words .
Maybe  what is unique about it .........or  why it was hard to make .
Ir why it was a first  for you. .......
Your pictures  can  be  turned into a VERY  valuable  teaching tool with  just a few words of description about each coil

:)

I am also  courious  about some of them,
If you don;t   choose to say anything on your own   I might  ask  you  questions about them .......I imagin I could  finish posting  all my questions within a week  or so .

:)


gary

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on November 24, 2009, 11:09:08 PM
What's the purpose of the capacitor in parallel with the resistor?
Hi Broli,
This is not absolutely necessary.
It acts as a sort of 'repeater' and reduces the amps draw.
 It seems that with it there( at the right size which is critical), the repeats take the place of more juice coming in from the battery.
This allows you to set the base resistor at 10k ohm rather than 1k ohms to get the same switching.

I only resort to using this with a fluoro tube. And, then it was the thing that got mine to start.
But, I believe I had too few turns on mine and it would not have needed it if I had more turns.

good question.
thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on November 25, 2009, 04:23:28 AM
I just found a good picturs from early last winter.
This is 3 turns on a secondary.
These lights are very bright and I suspect they may all be in parallel, but the way they are lined up makes me think they are series as well... bright output.
This is a cam from the computer and not from the digital camera which adjusts for light.

This is to give a good example of how great it is to use the secondaryand NOT the regular C-E junction, for the light, if anyone is still in doubt.

egads it even still has the regular joule thief light in there too! this is a very old pic!!
jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: broli on November 25, 2009, 04:23:37 AM
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8341.msg210330#msg210330 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8341.msg210330#msg210330)

I have been looking at those and I believe I understand the principle on all but the second one was tricky. It took me a bit to understand what was happening or so I believe.

So current flows to 100nF cap, this current causes induction in lower JT winding. Now current flows into base and opens transistor. This makes a less resistive path to battery so even more current is now allowed through upper winding, again this causes induction in lower JT winding and opening the transistor even more, while that is happening the 0.77nF cap quickly charges and stops current flow. Then the transistor abruptly shuts off and our discharge happens.

If this is correct, then whoever came up with that circuit thought it through pretty good, it's beyond me how you can find the exact values to get it working.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: topothemtn on November 25, 2009, 05:06:21 AM
Can anyone tell me if a steel washer will work in place of a ferrite toroid?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 25, 2009, 05:12:44 AM
a toroid is not required, you can wind the coils on a rusty nail if you want to. i would also add that you don't even need a core. i have a joule thief that uses a air core crystal radio coil, i have one where the coil is wound directly onto the body of transistor.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: broli on November 25, 2009, 05:17:17 AM
a toroid is not required, you can wind the coils on a rusty nail if you want to. i would also add that you don't even need a core. i have a joule thief that uses a air core crystal radio coil, i have one where the coil is wound directly onto the transistor itself.

Lol those are some extreme conditions, I was sort of starting to think that a JT needs luck. It makes my joulethief, was pretty close to generic specs, which didn't work look bad. But I'll retry when I have the exact parts and some electronic equipment.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: topothemtn on November 25, 2009, 05:18:35 AM
Thanks for that info. It will make making the coils alot easier.

Dick.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on November 25, 2009, 05:43:48 AM
I was planning on adding  a few more posts  but my internet connection  was so bad today I  had trouble  just  getting here to read .......  I  have several  double  posts  to deleate because  the page timed out after it uploaded the  page but before  it loaded  the new page .




gary


Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: innovation_station on November 25, 2009, 05:45:37 AM
 ;D

never saw something soooo kooool   so simple  eh !

here is 1 worlds first public exposed jt!  displaying ou

i built this a long time ago.. 

 ;D ;D

long time b4 the jt thred came along ..  ::)  lol

leds are wired a j says ... a special way ...  ;)
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 25, 2009, 11:11:42 PM
Lol those are some extreme conditions, I was sort of starting to think that a JT needs luck. It makes my joulethief, was pretty close to generic specs, which didn't work look bad. But I'll retry when I have the exact parts and some electronic equipment.
here is the post from the jt thread showing the aircore coil. a toilet paper roll can be used as the coil form, heck you can wind it on a drinking straw if you want. ;)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg143373#msg143373
i dont think i ever posted a picture of the one wound directly on the transistor body but if you would like i can take a picture for you. worth a thousand words or something like that...

Thanks for that info. It will make making the coils alot easier.

Dick.
glad to help.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: innovation_station on November 26, 2009, 03:12:09 PM
here a few pictures of tests i did with a neon and 1 wire ..

ist
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Mk1 on November 28, 2009, 12:04:25 AM
@all

Ist made one watch http://www.youtube.com/user/innovationstation#p/u/22/Jiodkjo9hpk

I hope this will help !

First thing tuning, on step one the green coil is put on tight leaving room so that two other coil (for the jt)can be added 180 degrees
apart, the green coil needs to be connected to a diode bridge to get voltage readings .

On step 2 , you start adding jt coils one at a time and check voltmeter every time you put more turns , that way you see the difference it makes continue adding turns until the voltage on the voltmeter start going lower, this will mean you have reached the point where you start messing up with the turn ratio , meaning you add more you get lower voltage.

On more step i do is every time i change the jt numbers of turn i also tune the base resistor , usually a pot of 1k is used, you try to get the highest voltage on the voltmeter . i also keep the voltage data and the resistance at the base by checking the resistance used by the pot in the circuit.

At this point you will know that you have the right number of turns on the jt coil, and the green coil number of turns fitting in the toroid,.

At that point based on results decide to use smaller gauge the get more turns and higher voltage .

You will also have a good idea on the toroid working range.

To make a good design , you need to learn about the toroid first at this point you should have a good idea about doing so.


Step 3 , Start putting pickup coil on the toroid, you need to put the coil on both sides going one way and leave wire to come back over the coil the other way on step 4.Making a cross windings.

If you want more pickup coil , you need to put them all at the same time , so make sure to remember the green coil for the room available  .

Lets say 20 turns fit , then on a mk1 you should have about 20 up then 16 down , mk2 having 2 pickup coils on each side numbers would be 10 up 6 down , you get the idea.

When you need more then 3 pickup coil , twist all those wire into a single one then do it all at once.

Now why the cross windings , you will then have the coil pushing and pulling , you can test it with a led that will now light both ways , it also helpful in charging caps.

I hope did not forget to much, i would really make a video but , i really don't have any money to buy a camera
, and none of my friends have one, but honestly most of my time and energy is on putting food in my stomach.

Mark

How to test dead spots use a single turn pickup coil , then connect it to a bridge and voltmeter and move it around the empty space left on the toroid , if you find a spot where there is no voltage that is a dead spot.

What could i have new to say ?

Nut much , but if i was to try this i would first try to find the best gauge for the jt side (bigger wire ) then try the match them gram for gram , since they will have the same mass and materiel they will share resonance at any freq.

The smaller you go on the secondary side , bigger resistance higher turn ratio for mass , same mass smaller gauge .

I think this will make sure that the current is not lost due to unmatched weight ...

Depending on the winding direction you get different sine wave .

Winding rotation direction , can help setting kick generation (+or-), when working with multiple core.

I hope this will help

Mark

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on December 01, 2009, 06:24:27 AM


Nut much , but if i was to try this i would first try to find the best gauge for the jt side (bigger wire ) then try the match them gram for gram , since they will have the same mass and materiel they will share resonance at any freq.

The smaller you go on the secondary side , bigger resistance higher turn ratio for mass , same mass smaller gauge .

I think this will make sure that the current is not lost due to unmatched weight ...



Mark

How  important  would  you  say  matching   weight is ?   

Do you  know of  a chart or website that  has  weight  per ft  of wire so we can  work out  the  balance  with  different  wire sizes ?

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 01, 2009, 07:05:06 AM
Just a question.  Is it weight, or mass?  For resonance, I suspect it may be mass, but I really don't know.  I was thinking about Mark's idea here and it makes a lot of sense to me.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on December 02, 2009, 07:11:47 AM
Just a question.  Is it weight, or mass?  For resonance, I suspect it may be mass, but I really don't know.  I was thinking about Mark's idea here and it makes a lot of sense to me.

Bill


Bill


It seems to me  you  can use either mass or weight in this case .
Part of the equation is  same metal same weight .
If you were  making a bi-metal  coil the weight  or mass question would  become  important .


gary

Edit

After thinking about it ........ if you  were making  a bi-metal  coil  equivalent conductor volume might  be  the  way to go
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: topothemtn on December 07, 2009, 02:01:59 AM
Hi everyone. I know this is off the subject but there seems to be quite a few (Electronic Experts) here.

I have a 12v regulated power supply that puts out 2.5 amps. Is there a way to make it output more amps? Like maybe 15 or 20 amps?

Thanks for any help on this.

Dick
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: gadgetmall on December 08, 2009, 11:18:58 PM
Hi everyone. I know this is off the subject but there seems to be quite a few (Electronic Experts) here.

I have a 12v regulated power supply that puts out 2.5 amps. Is there a way to make it output more amps? Like maybe 15 or 20 amps?

Thanks for any help on this.

Dick
Nope . If its rated 2.5 amps that is the maximum you can get out of it
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: topothemtn on December 09, 2009, 06:38:37 AM
Hey Gagetmall. Thanks for the answer. It's not the one I was hoping for LOL; but thanks anyways.

Dick
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: guruji on December 24, 2009, 10:39:40 PM
Hi guys I have a white toroid don't know what is the material. Is this good for JT?
Thanks
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 24, 2009, 10:46:28 PM
If it is painted, chances are it is a powdered iron toroid.  Can a magnet stick to it?  If not, it will not work for the JT.  If it passes the magnet test, go ahead and wind a basic JT circuit on it and see what happens.  They do not take long to make.

Good luck to you,

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Nali2001 on December 24, 2009, 11:02:57 PM
Hi all, I know nothing about the Joule Thief and since this is a 101 you might want to add what the Joule Thief actually is, and what it is supposed to be capable of and what is special about it. Also maybe some overall efficiency details.

Thanks,
Steven
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on December 25, 2009, 12:17:58 AM
Hi all, I know nothing about the Joule Thief and since this is a 101 you might want to add what the Joule Thief actually is, and what it is supposed to be capable of and what is special about it. Also maybe some overall efficiency details.

Thanks,
Steven

A joule thief is  A simple circuit that is  basicly  a simple oscillator.
The first JTs  that I  heard about  were just  a toroid with a few wraps  of wire in it .......a  transistor, a resistor and a blue or white LED
They  were interesting  because  they can  light the LED  even with a battery that  by normal standards would  be considered dead.

The  JT threads  are all about  what can be done  with the JT circuit
Adding  a secondary  was a big step ........it opened up many doors .

~~~~~~~~~~

I could not  watch  videos  for a long time ......so I do not have any links to  videos that  explain  the basics
Perhaps  someone  that  already  has  links for  good videos  can post  them here for you.

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on December 25, 2009, 12:38:25 AM
Well said, and good idea gary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)
This is how I made my first 3. Then I made some personal adjustments, but this video is clear and easy.
My recommendation is always
watch it 3 times.
first run through
second- start at the 1:05 minute marker and watch it til they start with the jokes.
third time- watch it and predict what they will do.
Then you have it.

The tricky part about the first time is to get the center tapped primary bit.
That is why I say make it their way and get it into your head and hands then make some more.

Then begin to add secondaries and read the loooong thread for lots of info and ideas.

jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on January 16, 2010, 09:30:35 PM
As I see it  one of the  problems  with  using  toroids  is the big ones are relativly rare .

A way  to get the job  done with what is commonly available  is required.

I will  try to explain  a way  to use  a group  if small  toroids in  place  of  a larger  toroid

The  picture  below is of several of what  I call  candy cane  coils.
Why I chose that name  is not evident  in this picture.
When smaller  windings are  used  the  windings spiral  around the the  toroids  like the stripes on a candy cane.

All  the   toroids  in the picture  are wound with 20 wraps  of  cat5 twisted pair.

All of the  toroids  are wound in the same  direction.

I chose 20 wraps  because that is all that will comfortably  fit on  this kind  of toroid  with this kind of wire.

The  primary  for each of these  toroids is 4 wraps through the centers of  all the toroids
4 wraps  seems best  for  all the  5 for $1 toroids  I have tested so far. I am  sure that  different  kinds if toroids will require  different numberes of wraps for the primary

Both   the primarys  and  secondarys of all the coils  are connected the same .....end of one wire with the start of the other .......traditional JT style.

The  coil  with  6 toroids  produces  75 V  with no load ...... 37 V driving  my 90 LED array .....the  array was bright but not full power.

The  coil with 4 toroids produced  31 V unloaded   30 V loaded .......the array  was much dimmer

The coil with 2 toroids  produced  37 V unloaded   31 V loaded ..... the  array was  lit b ut  just barely .

The  voltage seems to be set by the number of wraps  on the  coils.
The power level  seems to be a set by the number of torids
If  you   try your circuit and do not have enough power........just add a few more toroids.
It looks to me that all the toroids  in a particular  coil should be wrapped  with the same number of wraps....... It seems better to  use one coil less  if  wire runs out .......rather than having a toroid with less windings.........the odd toroid  seems to drag  the whole thing down.

gary

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on January 16, 2010, 10:10:55 PM
This  is a coil with 8 wraps each toroid ( #20 bell wire )

Same configuration  as above.

This  coil  produces  19 V loaded .
21 V unloaded.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on January 16, 2010, 11:42:08 PM
Lets see what can  be done  with this system

Below is a picture of an  unknown  toroid.
It is  from  a power supply .
The  toroid is probably  iron powder or something.
It  it takes  quite a bit to get it  going.

The second picture is  the same coil  with  the  8 wrap  coil
The  output  of the  8 wrap is the same as before.
The  output of the  unknown  coil  is 11 V foir the small winding 23 V for the larger winding.
The  larger winding is  clearly  not putting out as much as it should........underdriven .

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on January 17, 2010, 12:41:42 AM
I added  2  5 for $1 toroids  to the  unknown  coil by putting candy cane  windings over the  empty spots on the coil.

I  used 3 wraps each toroid  with brown wire and  2 wraps each toroid with blue  wire.

The intention is to couple  the 3 toroids  to catch more magnetic flux from the  primary

gary


Edit

it turns  out that this  did  not work out...... I am pretty sure it can be done.......but  havn't got it to work yet


Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on January 17, 2010, 01:24:37 AM
What happened?
but first start another thread so this stays 101

what happened?

jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on January 17, 2010, 01:28:32 AM
What happened?
but first start another thread so this stays 101

what happened?

jeanna

Jeanna

Nothing happened

I did not  have time to add as much as I wanted......and others  choose to add very little.

What I am posting now is  a little more advanced......but it still needs to be where people can get to it without having to go through 1000 pages


gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on January 17, 2010, 03:23:31 AM
I put the  2  4 and 6   toroid coils in series

They produce  33 V loaded .......the array  is near full brightness

59 V unloaded


gary





Edit

I switched  the wires around so that the LED array is being powered by 6 toroids and the other 6 are connected to my Jesus charger ....... for feedback

I am getting 33 V with the array lit at least as bright  as before.


The picture is  of all the toroids in series
A picture of  the  toroids wired half  for feeback  would look the same  except each  set of 6 would be wired seperate one poweing the LEDs and the other  feedback

Note

I chose to  wire the  toroids in 2 groups mostly to show that it could be done .........as  long as the  primary ( blue and white wires ) go through the centers  of the  toroids  they are part of the circuit




Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2010, 07:39:11 AM
Hi to all people who are having a hard time finding good toroids.

I want to offer a ray of hope.

I just made a really great jtc today and with it I will be able to light up a small room with many leds in both series and parallel.

So, first the toroid came from the circuit board that was part of a 13w cfl.
(I think 13 watt. It could be 10w or 20w,) but you can see in the picture that the toroid was next to the can type capacitor which is bent over.
You can see the space where it was.

Now, look closely and you will see a gold wire which is the base coil. 9T
And, a green wire which is the collector coil, 12T
I then wound the red in the space that was left and it was 10T.
The transistor is a 2N2222. I am sure you can substitute with a 2N3904 or even the transistor from the same board, will probably work just fine.
The resistor is 470 ohm. It is one that I got for free from the purchase of some leds from china. For some reason if you use these leds in a car with 12v they have it figured out that you need 470 ohm resistors, so I have a couple hundred of these.

As you can see from the scope shot, I am getting 54v-62v
at 62KHz.

If I were to make a jtc with a Light from the secondary using this toroid as it is, I would solder 7- 8 leds in series and 4-10 in parallel. This will give you one light that is as bright as a 28-80 watt light bulb which will run off one AA or AAA for a very long time.

Remember this is being connected to the secondary.
That fact means that the number of leds you use will make NO DIFFERENCE WHATEVER to the length of time this will run on one battery.

Do you see how the red secondary wires are stuck into the breadboard?
They are on the ends of the 8 leds which are arranged in series.
BTW, if I put the wires in the opposite ends the lights do not go on at all, so always try both ways.
I realize most people do not have a scope, so, I believe you can follow this as a recipe with some assurance.

I hope this helps,

jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: kooler on January 23, 2010, 08:01:39 AM
thanks jeanna
 i like to see stuff recycled.. i was worried about those toroids in the cfl due to there yellow color which i thought was a powder iron core..
you know it was a electronic ballast that made me build my circuit that i video..
then i saw it was also a stun gun and strobe circuit so i have learn alot since march 09
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2010, 11:46:15 PM
I had a thought this morning as I awoke.
I remember jesus nievesoliveras had only 2 leds which he had rescued from some things at the dump. One day he was devastated because he had popped one of them with too high a voltage spike. I certainly do not want my recipe to pop anyone's precious leds, since this may be the case for many that leds are hard to get, or that purchasing through ebay from china with paypal or credit card is impossible, so I have an alternative to the recipe that uses only one led.

Everything is exactly the same, except that I wound the secondary through the core only one and a half times such that the wire goes through the center 2 times. Here are the pics of the breadboard with one led lit and the scope shot.

jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on January 24, 2010, 08:32:55 PM
Hi to all people who are having a hard time finding good toroids.

I want to offer a ray of hope.

I just made a really great jtc today and with it I will be able to light up a small room with many leds in both series and parallel.

So, first the toroid came from the circuit board that was part of a 13w cfl.
(I think 13 watt. It could be 10w or 20w,) but you can see in the picture that the toroid was next to the can type capacitor which is bent over.
You can see the space where it was.




Jeanna

Thanks for posting this

I got some CFLs  to try a Jeanna light  last week

I pulled the  toroids out of them and  tried making a candy cane coil with them......
I had hoped  to light up my 90 LED array  with  4 or 5 little toroids 

 I didn't get anything out of them.

Now  I will try again..........maybe I will pull some windings  off of them.

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2010, 09:25:58 PM
Hi Gary,
I do not think this will work with 90 unless you resolder the leds in your bulb..

Quote
I would solder 7- 8 leds in series and 4-10 in parallel. This will give you one light that is as bright as a 28-80 watt light bulb which will run off one AA or AAA for a very long time.

I will be doing something like this today, and if I learn anything new I will post it.

jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on January 25, 2010, 06:18:44 PM
Hi Gary,
I do not think this will work with 90 unless you resolder the leds in your bulb..



Jeanna

I am not  going to re arrange the  LEDs in my  array...... I like them the way they are.

I do understand  that it might not be possible  to lite  my array with  the little  CFL toroids ........that is why I am trying it

I need  about 100V  to light  the  array to full  brightenss.........
I can  get that kind of  voltage  from a 5 for $1 toroid in  at least  half a dozen ways......

I think  we will  be much  better off if we find ways to use smaller toroids  for larger power  applications.

My theory is....... wind  a  toroid to get the voltage you need........then make   more  just like it ......... keep adding  more toroids in series until you have enough power.

To clarify.......  the primary  of the  original  toroid should  be removed...... and  a primary through the centers of ALL the  toroids should  be added.


gary

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on January 25, 2010, 08:29:23 PM
I added  2  5 for $1 toroids  to the  unknown  coil by putting candy cane  windings over the  empty spots on the coil.

I  used 3 wraps each toroid  with brown wire and  2 wraps each toroid with blue  wire.

The intention is to couple  the 3 toroids  to catch more magnetic flux from the  primary

gary


Edit

it turns  out that this  did  not work out...... I am pretty sure it can be done.......but  havn't got it to work yet

I finally got back to the unknown  coil
Adding  a cancy cane  winding  did not  do the trick.
I  still think it should  have so I will try again later.
It does work  with  a few simple wraps  of wire  around each extra core.
You can't  tell by  this picture  but the 2 outside cores are there to " collect " more flux for the unknown coil .
The mumber of wraps does not seem  critical.
I used 5 for one  and 10 for the other.
I get 127 V with both  connected ...... that is powering  my LED array.
The  start  of the  wire connecting  the toroids  must be connected to the end ...... if I disconnect either  wire from its other end  the voltage drops to 10 V

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2010, 09:46:12 PM
...

I do understand  that it might not be possible  to lite  my array with  the little  CFL toroids ........that is why I am trying it
yeay!!   ;D
Quote
I need  about 100V  to light  the  array to full  brightness.........
100 spiky volts?
That is nice to know.
I think I will pick up one of those next time I am in wallmart. I need another plaque, so that might be soon.

Quote
I can  get that kind of  voltage  from a 5 for $1 toroid in  at least  half a dozen ways......
I might try to get that much from the little one.
I just made a bunch of turns and it seemed good at 50-60v at 470r, but with less resistance or more turns or both 100v is probably possible.
I was addressing the cfl. I do not think that is possible with the tiny toroid.
I made one at the end of the summer from my 3/4 inch toroid that lit a 4 inch 4watt tube, but it fizzled. I think there were so many turns, that they must have shifyed and choked it.

I notice xee2 has re-wound his that got choked and he is getting good HV from it.

Quote
I think  we will  be much  better off if we find ways to use smaller toroids  for larger power  applications.
I completely agree.



Quote
To clarify.......  the primary  of the  original  toroid should  be removed...... and  a primary through the centers of ALL the  toroids should  be added.
This is something like the russian pictures from the other day.

I also had good results by winding the base coil around one toroid, and the collector coil around both. This gave me 2 toroids with similar voltage output, but if I remember, different shape.

I find it interesting to light a cfl, but it is not necessary nor very bright. Certainly using a bunch of leds is the brightest way.


jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on January 26, 2010, 07:09:43 PM
;D100 spiky volts?
That is nice to know.
I think I will pick up one of those next time I am in wallmart. I need another plaque, so that might be soon.


Jeanna

No..... not spiky volts......normal volts
From my experience  the reading on a meter  with spiky voltage  means  very little
With the meter  connected  across the  LED array I have  lit the array pretty brightly with as much as 250V  and  as low as less than  one volt
How brightly the array lights seems to be dependant more on the power  level that the circuit can deliver more than the voltage.

About this array .......was out of the first Light of America floodlight that I ever bought.
I use it as  my general purpose  load for my circuits.
It is great because it lights a little with almost any application of power.
With very low power  just a few LEDs will glow purple .

The  new flood  lights  do not  react like this.......they require much more power to turn on........when they come on they are nice and bright.

Another thing to think about ........ my first flood lights  were VERY easy to take apart ......but each new generation  has gotten harder to take apart
The last  one I took apart  was a real pain ........I had to CUT the reflector around  the circuit board  then  pull  the board out.
The back  of the array was also coated with some kind of glue.......effectively making it about twice as thick.

Because of these  things  I do not plan on buying more  floodlights  to  take apart to get the arrays .

You might look for the  light in the picture below.
It is a little smaller........  and  cheaper......
If I remember right it has  24 LEDs  but it is almost  as bright  as my 90 LED array because  these seem to be straw hat  LEDs
I have  bought  several  of these.........the electronics  burns out fast .......but the LEDs  are still good.........and  quick and easy to get to.


Quote


I might try to get that much from the little one.
I just made a bunch of turns and it seemed good at 50-60v at 470r, but with less resistance or more turns or both 100v is probably possible.
I was addressing the cfl. I do not think that is possible with the tiny toroid.
I made one at the end of the summer from my 3/4 inch toroid that lit a 4 inch 4watt tube, but it fizzled. I think there were so many turns, that they must have shifyed and choked it.

I notice xee2 has re-wound his that got choked and he is getting good HV from it.
I completely agree.


This is something like the russian pictures from the other day.

I also had good results by winding the base coil around one toroid, and the collector coil around both. This gave me 2 toroids with similar voltage output, but if I remember, different shape.

I find it interesting to light a cfl, but it is not necessary nor very bright. Certainly using a bunch of leds is the brightest way.




My goal with the Little torids was for lighting  a LED array .......I finally replaced my  Dewalt 18 V batterys ........ Now I have  an 18 V light to convert to LEDs
I plan  on using some feedback....... the original bulb only lasts around 4 hrs per charge........I am shooting for  a week or 2 with LEDs .......
A  LOA 60 LED flloodlight  array just  barely fits  into the place the  reflector  used to be.


You got me wondering  if it is possible  to light a CFL with the little  toroids  ........  I wonder  of it is possible   to put the toroids both in series and parallel like we do  with LEDs
So far with my candy cane coils the series coils only seem to add power not voltage.

Just maybe....... the base coil  can be " shortened " by not putting it though all the toroids......... that might  change the transformer ratio.

gary

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on January 27, 2010, 12:29:55 AM
Thanks gary, I have seen those. I will try one next time.

=====
I want to give a follow up picture of this tiny toroid as a finished lamp. With 42 leds, it is only marginally brighter than the 24led one, similar to itm which is a surprise, and may relate to very low amps per led. I turned the cluster and it got brighter, so I might just need to play with the directions of the leds.
I tried to make the lights face outward in a hemispherical way. You can see I was not successful, and I may be able to improve this light by carefully bending the led wires. I put hot glue on the legs so shorting won't be an issue.
1- the cluster run by the tiny toroid in place and on.
2- a piece of plastic bag (!) wrapped around the cluster to give an even diffusion.
3-all put together and on.

jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: b_rads on October 04, 2010, 06:13:16 PM
Thanks to ALL for the great info on this wonderful circuit.  I built my first basic Joule Thief this weekend and it worked as advertised.  In reading this thread, I created a guide from the posts here and have made it available in the download section.  It helped me and it might help others.  Thanks again to ALL.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=441
Joule Thief 101.pdf
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tikbalang on December 15, 2010, 04:28:01 PM
i am not getting optimum brightness from the leds.

i built the circuit from the 3rd post of this thread combined with jeanna's instructions on page 5 of this thread.

i tried 4 sets of coils, with CFL toroids:

A. 3T+3T/8T (default CFL winding)
B. 5T+5T/5T (cat5 wires)
C. 9T+12T/10T (jeanna's, #24 magnet wire)
D. 8T+8T (no secondary, cat5 wires)

my output is 1 led at the collector or 5 leds in series at the secondary coil. the leds light up but not as bright as when driven with 20ma constant current source.

the first 3 did not differ much in terms of brightness, both for 1led and 5led config. the last one seemed just a tad brighter but i could not fit anymore windings.

is it ok to jumble up the wires? can we establish a ratio to the windings? is it ok to use thinner wires to fit in more windings?
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on December 16, 2010, 04:33:02 AM
i am not getting optimum brightness from the leds.

i built the circuit from the 3rd post of this thread combined with jeanna's instructions on page 5 of this thread.

i tried 4 sets of coils, with CFL toroids:

A. 3T+3T/8T (default CFL winding)
B. 5T+5T/5T (cat5 wires)
C. 9T+12T/10T (jeanna's, #24 magnet wire)
D. 8T+8T (no secondary, cat5 wires)

my output is 1 led at the collector or 5 leds in series at the secondary coil. the leds light up but not as bright as when driven with 20ma constant current source.

the first 3 did not differ much in terms of brightness, both for 1led and 5led config. the last one seemed just a tad brighter but i could not fit anymore windings.

is it ok to jumble up the wires? can we establish a ratio to the windings? is it ok to use thinner wires to fit in more windings?


tikbalang

I made a  similar misstake
the windings you have tried look to me like they are for a ferrite toroid.
The CFL toroids are not ferrite .....they are probably powered iron.

Powdered iron requires more primary windings.

My best CFL toroid JT was made with 20 windings  of #30 magnet wire  4 strands  twisted together and wrapped on the toroid as one .

2 of those wires are used as primary  2  as secondary
Both sets of wires are connected start of one  to the end of the other.

This setup only puts out 1.6V according to my DMM but they seem to be very spikey volts......... by that I mean that the  impulses are very strong and the JT can do more than its indicated voltage would indicate.

This JT will light a 1W LED pretty bright.
It also lights a MR 16 light with 32 LEDs pretty bright.
This light also was all its original electronics.
This light will not light at all with 9V DC

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on December 30, 2010, 09:48:05 PM
i am not getting optimum brightness from the leds.

i built the circuit from the 3rd post of this thread combined with jeanna's instructions on page 5 of this thread.
.........

is it ok to jumble up the wires? can we establish a ratio to the windings? is it ok to use thinner wires to fit in more windings?

Yes,  most of the time, it is OK to jumble the secondary wires, but be careful not to get them too close to the primary. It can choke the system if you do.

No, we cannot establish a windings ratio.
The numbers relate to the ferrite core and each one is different.

Yes, thinner wire is great.
Just be careful not to scratch the insulation. It is brittle on the thin wire and will break out and cause spark damage and the jtc will stop working. It will first work fine then inexplicably stop when this happens.

btw, the brightness never seems the same when using the high frequency as compared to the 20mA straight through.
If they are almost as bright, then this is the real deal.

Good job, keep going!

jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tikbalang on January 02, 2011, 03:36:37 PM
Quote
No, we cannot establish a windings ratio.
The numbers relate to the ferrite core and each one is different.

i was hoping there was some way of quantifying something in this circuit that can be adjusted to get a similar result over and over. can the windings compensate for a bad toroid? to what extent? how to tell if the windings were not enough? or too much?


Quote
Yes, thinner wire is great.
Just be careful not to scratch the insulation. It is brittle on the thin wire and will break out and cause spark damage and the jtc will stop working. It will first work fine then inexplicably stop when this happens.

i can confirm this. it happened to me on several experiments and the solution was to rewind the coil with new wire and to coat the toroid with nail polish.

btw, before i started painting over the toroids, i get a reading of 15kohms  to 30kohms between the toroid and the wires. it should be infinite, right?


Quote
btw, the brightness never seems the same when using the high frequency as compared to the 20mA straight through.
If they are almost as bright, then this is the real deal.

then i may already have been successful with a 1led joule thief circuit. i have built a few that were blindingly bright when LOOKED AT but can't illuminate anything useful at more than 4ft.

i did a few experiments before the holidays and one of the more successful coils were from a spool-type inductor salvaged from a CFL. the inductor itself broke so i took about 6ft of the fine wire, doubled it over to two strands of 3ft then jumble-wound it on a sharpie pen. i'll re-create it and post pics later. i'm mentioning it here because it took me a while to hunt for toroids when they were not needed at all, newbies take note!

some pre-built coils that failed: am coils with ferrite rods from two different walkman-type radios and an isolation transformer from a crt monitor.

surprisingly, CFL toroids work as-is with varying degrees of successes. i assumed they would be of the same quality since they practically have the same purpose in the CFL circuit. the plain black unpainted toroids seem to be bad performers. i found a yellow one similar to jeanna's that i will work on later with more windings, it already is bright as-is. there are a few reds and blues that i have yet to test.

CFL toroids come in different sizes and colors but the windings are more or less the same: 2T+2T/6T or 3T+3T/8T (that's "primary base+primary collector/secondary" in joule thief lingo.

i tried mixing it up with 3T+8T for a 1led jt but the difference is negligible.

thanks resman and jeanna, i'll come back later for pics and more results.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: jeanna on January 02, 2011, 10:42:46 PM
@tlkb...

Have you seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnNQrYy_Bw4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnNQrYy_Bw4)

I used the toroid from a cfl and took a hint from the existing turns on it, and made this light that has 42 leds.
I am able to see and if I were younger I could read by it because it is a good brightness.
There are umm 7 parallel rows of 6 series wired leds =ing 42.
I have decided that it really is no brighter than 24 leds and I suggest 6 or 7 might be good enough.
I wanted a light that would shoot in all directions (and, also I wanted to see if it could be brighter than 24 leds.)

jeanna
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: shylo on January 03, 2011, 03:00:03 AM
Hi Jenna ,You seem to to be the go to person for questions on this subject,..I was wondering about the transistors used, I just salvage parts from old pcb's,... does the heat from my soldering gun cause damage to the components?, because I've tried making a jt with several different transistors , none of the 2222 though, all different #'s, I just can't get it to work for me ,the torrid is out of a microwave,roughly the size of a quater but thicker.....I guess I need to know if you can re-use old components or do you need to buy new?...thanx .....shylo
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on January 03, 2011, 07:26:06 AM
Hi Jenna ,You seem to to be the go to person for questions on this subject,..I was wondering about the transistors used, I just salvage parts from old pcb's,... does the heat from my soldering gun cause damage to the components?, because I've tried making a jt with several different transistors , none of the 2222 though, all different #'s, I just can't get it to work for me ,the torrid is out of a microwave,roughly the size of a quater but thicker.....I guess I need to know if you can re-use old components or do you need to buy new?...thanx .....shylo

shylo

ALot of people use recycled parts for JTs.
I tried pulling transistors out of old  equipment but I didn't have much luck with most of them.
There are tons of different kinds of  transistors alot of them require 5V for the base.

I choose to buy transistors
it is just one less variable that I have to worry about .

Old monitors have some great parts
The flyback trnasformer works great as a JT
I save all the ferrite core transformers I find in the monitor.
There should also be some high voltage caps in there too
Just make sure you know how to ground the picture tube........it can hold a lethal  charge for years.

have you been reading the joule ringer thread?
If you want to salvage parts I would look for a store that will give you a few used disposable cameras.......most of the parts in them should  be good for JTs


gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: dasimpson on January 04, 2011, 12:31:29 PM
Hi Jenna ,You seem to to be the go to person for questions on this subject,..I was wondering about the transistors used, I just salvage parts from old pcb's,... does the heat from my soldering gun cause damage to the components?, because I've tried making a jt with several different transistors , none of the 2222 though, all different #'s, I just can't get it to work for me ,the torrid is out of a microwave,roughly the size of a quater but thicker.....I guess I need to know if you can re-use old components or do you need to buy new?...thanx .....shylo

yes you can use scrap i do for the transistors you need to know the pinouts they are not always the same
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: it hertz on January 18, 2011, 04:40:42 AM
Hi guys im starting to gather components for my first JT  i have downloaded the joule thief 101  PDF and it say

"The schematic shows a 1K resistor going to the base of the transistor I
recommend using a potentiometer (Pot) in place of the resistor"

What size potentiometer would i need ?
Thanx
neil
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2011, 06:05:24 AM
I have used a 10k but that is because that is all I had.  It usually calls for a 1k so, as long as that is in the range...it will be fine.


Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: b_rads on March 11, 2011, 05:54:07 PM
@all
I fully intended to do research last night but, instead I played with a basic joule thief and the Carbon/Copper/Zinc battery.  What great fun.  I could not light a 5mm LED directly from the two cells.  With a basic joule thief the two cells produced a very intense light.  I could light with as little as 10.7ma and the pot used at full on would consume slightly over 50ma.  I need to find the sweet spot where the cells are not stressed.

The DIY Copper Carbon Zinc document is here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=460
The Basic Joule Thief 101 document is here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=441

Have fun!
Brad S.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 11, 2011, 10:04:50 PM
Brad:

Nice work.  Be careful that you are not sending too much voltage into those leds as you can fry them easily with a JT when running only 2 of them.  Trust me on this...ha ha.  It will be good to see how long your cells perform with this load.  You might try adding a supercap of 5 to 10 farads in parallel with your cells, that has always helped my longevity.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Montec on March 13, 2011, 09:29:25 PM
Hello all
Crucial  knowledge that I have gleaned from the internet over the past few years regarding magnetic fields and inductors is:
1: Usable energy from magnetic fields in inductors is stored in the gaps between magnetic materials. ie magnetic materials do not store energy they just transfer energy.
So the best types of coil cores for the Joule Thief would have gaps incorporated in them. ie gaped laminate cores or powdered metal cores (the gap is between the metal particles) The coils should to be wound over the gaps for the best result or equally spaced on the powdered metal cores.

Non-gaped laminate and ferrite cores make excellent transformers but poor energy storage inductors.   

:)
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: ltseung888 on February 04, 2012, 04:03:16 AM
See the following
 
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1171.msg20464#msg20464 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1171.msg20464#msg20464)
 
for the secret behind the Joule Thief and FLEET.
 
The attached diagram is the Output over Input Power Comparison.  Enjoy
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on February 04, 2012, 05:00:34 AM
See the following
 
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1171.msg20464#msg20464 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1171.msg20464#msg20464)
 
for the secret behind the Joule Thief and FLEET.
 
The attached diagram is the Output over Input Power Comparison.  Enjoy

I think you have something here.
I have been thinking of something for a while but I dont have the ability to really test it.

Most of Teslas later work involved spark gaps.....these insured a high rate of change but would also require relatively high voltage.

From what I understand the Howard Johnson motor used around 2000V

I understand the Gray conversion tube used 3000V

A joule thief creates a pulse with very high rate of change.
What would happen if someone amplified the output of a joule thief?
What would happen if someone used a joule thief to charge a capacitor to lets say 1000V ......then pulsed that with a signal from a second joule thief.
Any guesses what the BEMF pulses from a 1000V joule thief would be?

It seems to me that if you fed an 1000V joule thief type pulse into the right sized transformer you would  have a delay line generator.

Nothing really new here.......but in my opinion using joule thiefs for the high voltage supply and for the pulse supply would make the circuit smaller and cheaper.

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on February 04, 2012, 06:10:01 AM
I think you have something here.
I have been thinking of something for a while but I dont have the ability to really test it.

Most of Teslas later work involved spark gaps.....these insured a high rate of change but would also require relatively high voltage.

From what I understand the Howard Johnson motor used around 2000V

I understand the Gray conversion tube used 3000V

A joule thief creates a pulse with very high rate of change.
What would happen if someone amplified the output of a joule thief?
What would happen if someone used a joule thief to charge a capacitor to lets say 1000V ......then pulsed that with a signal from a second joule thief.
Any guesses what the BEMF pulses from a 1000V joule thief would be?

It seems to me that if you fed an 1000V joule thief type pulse into the right sized transformer you would  have a delay line generator.

Nothing really new here.......but in my opinion using joule thiefs for the high voltage supply and for the pulse supply would make the circuit smaller and cheaper.

gary

I have played with this idea a little.
I have a few suggestions for anyone that wants to play with the idea
I suggest using a bridge as a voltage clipper on the output of the pulse supply JT
The output of that bridge would go back to source......so your source battery should be at the voltage you want to have feeding the gate of your MOSFET or IGBT
I burnt up quite a few IGBTs trying to tailor the joule thief to the right output to feed the IGBT before I started using a bridge as a clipper.


I fed the output of the pulse JT into a bridge.....both posative and negative legs of the bridge go to the gate, the negative through a resistor.
This resistor will vary depending on other circuit components.
10M might be a good place to start.
The negative connection  is to keep an IGBT turned fully off......but should allow faster switching with MOSFETs.


I have not yet ramped up to high voltages........but I have been playing.

I dont have a scope.....my way of testing to make sure I have pulses rather than a simple DC signal  is to run  it through a transformer.
an output on the transformer secondary means I have a pulse.

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: ltseung888 on February 04, 2012, 04:06:54 PM
I think you have something here.
I have been thinking of something for a while but I dont have the ability to really test it.

Most of Teslas later work involved spark gaps.....these insured a high rate of change but would also require relatively high voltage.

From what I understand the Howard Johnson motor used around 2000V

I understand the Gray conversion tube used 3000V

A joule thief creates a pulse with very high rate of change.
What would happen if someone amplified the output of a joule thief?
What would happen if someone used a joule thief to charge a capacitor to lets say 1000V ......then pulsed that with a signal from a second joule thief.
Any guesses what the BEMF pulses from a 1000V joule thief would be?

It seems to me that if you fed an 1000V joule thief type pulse into the right sized transformer you would  have a delay line generator.

Nothing really new here.......but in my opinion using joule thiefs for the high voltage supply and for the pulse supply would make the circuit smaller and cheaper.

gary

Dear Gary,
 
The Taiwan LED Manufacturer is improving their LED Hat product shown to use one single battery and prolong the life of that battery many times.
 
That should not come as a surprise to you or the many long time Joule Thief Researchers.  The surprise is that they use Two Atten Oscilloscopes to hunt for the “right configuration”.  That put them in very solid scientific footing.
 
There is a very strong possibility of significant Government funding in the near future.  There is talk of giving every US Law Maker and/or every United Nation Representative in New York a “forever lasting” LED Hat. 
 
Overunity Research will get a boost???  Keep up your excellent work.  Money will seek the experts.  I strongly suggest that you get at least one Oscilloscope with csv file capability or work with someone with such a device.
 
Divine wine is for all.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on February 05, 2012, 01:20:08 AM

Dear Gary,
 
The Taiwan LED Manufacturer is improving their LED Hat product shown to use one single battery and prolong the life of that battery many times.
 
That should not come as a surprise to you or the many long time Joule Thief Researchers.  The surprise is that they use Two Atten Oscilloscopes to hunt for the “right configuration”.  That put them in very solid scientific footing.
 
There is a very strong possibility of significant Government funding in the near future.  There is talk of giving every US Law Maker and/or every United Nation Representative in New York a “forever lasting” LED Hat. 
 
Overunity Research will get a boost???  Keep up your excellent work.  Money will seek the experts.  I strongly suggest that you get at least one Oscilloscope with csv file capability or work with someone with such a device.
 
Divine wine is for all.

Itseung

I am glad to see that someone from the corporate world is using JT type technology

As far as giving hats at the lawmakers to impress them ......what do you think will impress them more a hat with LEDs that last very a long time or a big fat check from an energy related PAC.
Our elected officials vote according to their PACs all the time......so the checks just keep rolling in.

I will believe the govenment will take free energy serious only when we have a multi billion dollar free energy PAC to buy their loyalty

I do believe that there is free energy in our future........but it will be in spite of our governments not because of them

`````````````````````
I have been looking into getting an Ocilloscope from time to time.
The little cheap ones are getting better......but for the things I would want to do I would need one that was fast and could handle high voltage...




gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: d3x0r on February 05, 2012, 04:59:05 PM
I thought I might contribute a 'what not to do' maybe save someone in 101 from having a lot of problems.
I was testing my joule theives with an adjustable DC power supply, something like 0-30V and/or 0-3A...
My first one, I wound on about 8 turns of iron fence wire, ended up using about 24 inches of phone patch wire around that, and before I remembered that this thing was supposed to run off of very small voltage (dead AA batteries < 1.5V) I fed this with like 12V+ and ended up popping a couple transistors (they now read open in all directions :) ) .  I did get this to work, but it requires like 0.06A 0.6V to minimally light an LED.  I tried all sorts of modifications, smaller turns (1inch inner diameter), more wire at the smallest, so my first was 1x, second 2x and third 4x.  The last worked sort of the best, but then when I went back to my first, it had a better spike earlier on.  (yes this is all subjective, maybe i'll try and edit this later to include some pictures.  I finally stumbled on a ferrite toroid.  Wound aobut 2/3 the length of the wire I had been using on it, and wow did that make a difference.  Could light an LED with 0.00A and 0.3V :)  Limitations of equipment... but I could like 4 with like 0.02A and 0.6V...
 I have a couple 6 meter coils that I put on a iron axel of some sort, and connected the coils in opposing direction just like a JT.... these actually worked pretty well, but required a bit of current to get a good flux exchange.
I did learn intersting things like the more current you put into an Iron toroid, the higher the frequency goes, until a certain point.  With the ferrite, the less current I put in the higher the frequency, so at like ground 0 it's already way ahead of the frequency of the Iron... I think I could turn it down just below it turning off that the frequency would go back up as if on the other side of the low current side of lower frequency.  Defintely bying some real ferrites :)
Oh the other thing I was trying was seeing what effect magnets had on the core, with Iron there was 0 perceptable effect, on the ferrite, alinging the magnet N/S along the circumferance of the torus was the best performane. (was on a spot the torus that had no windings).  Putting the magnet in various direction in the center of the torus was basically just asking the cirtuit to stop working altogether.  Figured if I had a magnet mounted on the side, good way to adjust the frequency would be to just turn the magnet from aligned along the ring to vertical to the ring (which is basically the same frequency as not having the magnet).  Was playing with variuos configurations with multiple magnets but didn't get anything very useful. 
 
So what to conclude: don't use stranded iron cores if you want a small, elegant joule theif.  You need higher current to get the same magnetic flux induction, or many more windings.
 
Also in all my coils I couldn't use a resistor bigger than 33 ohms connecting the control coil to the base... actually I had to short it with a 2Ohm resistor to get it to work, finally removed the resistor altogether.  The base never went to a high enough voltage to trigger with like any resistance there.  (was using a MPSA06, well was using 2n2222's but blew up 2 of them trying to see if more voltage would make it work; [right if all else fails, use a bigger hammer?])  Was still afriad of putting more than 0.5A through it, but tested up to 0.89 a few times (even at the 1.5V limit on the other side)
 
A person early on in this thread said they had JT's wound on air, copper, everything else and that it was impossible to make one that didn't work; I really beg to differ, I had a horribly hard time making my stranded iron cores work.   And a magnet sticks to it better than to the ferrite core. 
 
Use ferrite!
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: ltseung888 on February 05, 2012, 06:50:56 PM
Itseung

I am glad to see that someone from the corporate world is using JT type technology


I do believe that there is free energy in our future........but it will be in spite of our governments not because of them

`````````````````````


gary

I was discussing this with an India Engineer.  The discussion focused on the arrogance of the average American who had been spoiled by their past successes.  The attitude is - “how could an old retiree with limited resources from a backward Country solved the Energy Crisis”?
 
He came to watch the demonstration with an American.  He did much more reading and tried the Joule Thief building but his American friend laughed at him.
 
The likely result is that someone from “a backward country” will produce an overunity product and then US will play the catch-up.  It will not take too long.  Some predicted the end of the world would come on December 20, 2012.  It may be the end of the old world that relied on fossil fuel.
 
The scientific evidence is here and can be repeated even in the most backward countries.  Will integrity or arrogance win???
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on February 06, 2012, 12:09:34 AM

 
The likely result is that someone from “a backward country” will produce an overunity product and then US will play the catch-up.  It will not take too long.  Some predicted the end of the world would come on December 20, 2012.  It may be the end of the old world that relied on fossil fuel.
 
The scientific evidence is here and can be repeated even in the most backward countries.  Will integrity or arrogance win???

Will integrety or arrogance win?
easy question........arrogance has won every time so far.

Lets say your backward country inventer came up with a great little free energy machine.
At least one of the arrogant people with more money than brains would offer them a boat load of money for it......if the inventer takes the money his invention is never seen again.......if he does not take the money  they resort to charactor assanation and threats.

There is nothing honorable or just about the people that are controling these situations.
If your inventor tries to make money from his free energy machine he will loose the battle........The cards are stacked against the free energy inventer ........and the dealer knows exactly what cards are on the table.

gary
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on February 06, 2012, 12:32:18 AM

A person early on in this thread said they had JT's wound on air, copper, everything else and that it was impossible to make one that didn't work; I really beg to differ, I had a horribly hard time making my stranded iron cores work.   And a magnet sticks to it better than to the ferrite core. 
 
Use ferrite!

I do not know who said that.......it is true in part.
Air core JTs can work.....but I had problems making big air core JTs.
I see no benifit to a copper core.
Bismuth did not work

Like you I had trouble with Iron core JTs.......whether it was powered a powered iron toroid plain iron or black iron oxide.....I am sure they can be made to work with enough power ........but why bother.

In support of anything working........if you use a base resistor and put a fairly good sized capacitor across the resistor to make a tank circuit even 10 or more ft of twisted pair will work as a JT......just connect the end to the beginning of the other wire and fire it up.




Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: resonanceman on February 06, 2012, 12:56:11 AM
Just thought I would update my information on what I called candy cane coils
I called them candy cane coils because on my first ones the windings spiraled around the stack of toroids like the stripes on a candy cane.

Now I would call them modular coils.
If you have a project calling for a large ferrite toroid but you only have smaller toroids you can split the windings of both the primary and secondary over a number of smaller toroids.

The total number of primary turns VS the total number of secondary turns seems to work out almost as if it was one large toroid.

It can also work to put your primary on 1 toroid and leave a long wire to connect  with the collector........this wire can then go through quite a few toroids......any windings on these toroids become secondarys...... I suggest going for fairly high voltage in the primary if you try this.

If you dont need alot of power from your secondarys just passing the wire going to the collector through the center of the toroids may be enough.....wrapping then around the toroids increases the power but usually lowers the voltage.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: gadgetmall on September 08, 2012, 07:11:40 PM
Here is a video tutorial from makemagazine for a Solar Joule thief bracelet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghB2irHIN8I&feature=related
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2012, 07:26:40 PM
Gadget:

Wow, the little JT circuit is really getting around everywhere now.  That is a cool application.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: dennisk on August 16, 2013, 07:34:23 PM
Hi sierraloewe,
After you have made your first jt and it works, then it is time to delve into those questions.

Follow the makezine or evilmadscientist youtube as closely as you can.

The gauge I use for the primary bifilar is 24awg. I got this from a telephone extension cord.
The length you will need to make this first one will be about 14 inches of each wire.
 This depends on the fatness and diameter of your toroid, so this is just a guess. (I use a small one and it takes 11 inches of each wire and is very generous.)

After you have made a plain joule thief make a second one exactly the same way. Put the led into the led spot but do not solder it.
Remove the led when you prove that the circuit works.
Now, wind a secondary.
The choice of gauge for the secondary is up to you.
The thinner wire will make higher voltage, but the problem with really thin wire (like 30awg from radio shack) is the insulation is easily scratched. If it gets scratched you will have little to no voltage from your output.
One more thing about the secondary.
The side of the primary that connects to the collector coil is the part that is being "transformed" so, if you have 10 turns on the collector side (you do now if you are following the makezine video) Then double that will be 20. So, make your first secondary with 20 turns.
This will give you a starting point for reference voltages.

Now, you have 2 very useful circuits.
1-the plain jt is the best way to get the last bit of joules out of the battery. It makes a terrific emergency light.
2- The battery needs to be a little higher for the secondary to work. There are exceptions to this, but most of the ones that use a secondary run down after the battery is at about 1.1v.
So, you use the jt with secondary then when it is no longer bright you switch that battery to the plain jt.
This does not apply to a rechargeable battery.
Do not use a rechargeable in a plain jt, because it is not good for batteries to be so thoroughly drained.
 (I could never figure out why but it seems to be so.)

After you have made these 2 you can start experimenting.

I have found that it is very important to make the wires wound snugly onto the toroid.
It is possible to have a good one that is loosely wound but if you want high voltage... get it tight around and try to have as many winds as you can actually in contact with the ferrite.

(I believe there is a difference in opinion about loosely wound together, but this is not about wound together, this is about being tightly wound on the toroid itself.)

That toroid is a powerful source of "something" that makes high volts.

I hope this helps.

jeanna
I noticed you said not to use deep cycle batteries that have been completely discharged.  I don't know if this is off topic but have you tried recharging them with the Bedini school girl charger?  Just curious.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 05, 2016, 11:12:03 PM
Hi all,

after months of lengthy conversation with a couple of my guitar-builders
I think I can explain the resonant operation of a joule thief circuit, in a manner which the technicians and builders can more easily understand.
(and replicate)

the biggest problem I have encountered when discussion self-resonant JT operation, is other builders cannot seem to get them to operate
in a resonance mode.

Several heated discussions, have led to the understanding of SRF with respect to the LRC portion of the circuit.
However, the transistor function seems to cause problems for many.
I have tried to explain the process of "tuning" the base resistor, while observing scope image of the primary transformer winding.

What I kept getting as a response, was asymmetric scope images of the transistor switching
(I assumed they were measuring across the LED (diode).....)

These scope images were sent to me and/or posted in multiple JT threads, displaying a sharp increase in voltage during the "switching on" time.
And an elongated (delayed) voltage decrease during the "switching off" time.

Part of this I have found to be a function of certain LEDs. They store energy across the diode (capacitance), which dissipates over time after the LED is switched off. meaning there is still current flowing through the diode after the transistor is off, and the production of "light". This can result in a misleading scope image. I state now - the (indicator) LED is not an essential part of the Joule Thief Circuit.
It is simply an indicator to let you know the JT is in operation.

Remove the LED, and the Joule Thief will continue to operate.
Now the scope image, across the coil, does not include the diode bias discharge.

Still I was receiving similar responses - they could not get their JT to run in a resonance mode.

At some point I gave up trying to explain this to people, because they just wanted to argue rather than try to understand what I was explaining.
Similar scopeshots of an asymmetric transistor switching were presented, and this was a sort of 'road block' to the communication process.

Anyways, my recent discussions with JT builders has given me a new perspective (and perhaps new terminology) that others may understand.

there is a voltage bias (different for each transistor) which sets the switching function into what is called in the transistor world

"linear mode" This term is derived from power graphs, in which the function is linear.
With the voltage biased within this range, an A/C waveform translates perfectly across the transistor.
People in the radio world already know this, because such is necessary to use a transistor for analog frequency response.
But I have found, that digital techs often know nothing about this mode of operation.

Each transistor can switch in a purely sinusoidal fashion when the base resistor is biased to within the voltage range of this "linear mode" of operation.
Within this linear mode, changes in the bias voltage results in a range of operating frequencies.
The SRF of the circuit should be designed to within these parameters.
Most standard JT designs are capable of this.

It is simply a matter of adjusting the base resistor to match the self-resonant frequency rest of the LRC circuit.

This is evident in the scope shot across the coil, As the waveform will become perfectly symmetrical.

When this occurs, the JT circuit will output the highest possible voltage and current for the input.
And as such, this is the most efficient way to use the JT circuit.

This is the difference between a Joule Thief powering a light for a few days,

vs JT's that have been running now for years.

all off what we would consider to be a "mostly dead battery".
meaning, one that has been drained below the operation conditions of most equipment.

So, when starting with two similarly drained batteries, why such a great discrepancy in run times?

In non-resonant operation, a JT circuit wastes a lot of energy, bucking against the natural frequency response of the coil.
This generates heat and EMF radiation. Because the field collapse and the charging function have a gap in time. and/or are an asymmetrical function, due to unsynchronized transistor on/off times.

When the transistor is in linear mode of operation, the sine-wave from the coil (through the base resistor), draws current from the battery, corresponding to the waveform. If you take a current scope shot of the signal in this mode of operation, you find the current also follows the same sinusoidal waveform.
slightly advanced ahead of the voltage. (~90-degrees)

I hope this helps, I haven't quite given up trying to deliver this message... it just gets frustrating with the language barrier, when it comes to technical terminology, differences between engineers and techs, etc...
People either have a hard time understanding what im trying to say, or they take a term in another context than the one in which I was trying to deliver it...

anyways, apparently the proper name for this mode of transistor operation is called "linear mode" in the technician world.
It is listed in the technical specs of the transistor - so you can get a feel for the biased voltage range of the base resistor.
The number of turns in the coil should correspond to this range of voltages, and by proxy, affects the SRF of the particular circuit.


Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 05, 2016, 11:35:25 PM
I think the problem is that any investigation into a JT circuit should be done in two steps.  The first step should be to understand how it operates in normal mode.  The second step is then to explore any possible self-resonant modes.  However, if it is running in some kind of self-resonant mode, then it is not really a JT any more, it's an oscillator.

Then there is another problem.  If you take a JT circuit and play with component values and turn it into an oscillator, then your claims of it running better and longer than a regular JT circuit would have to be proven on the bench.  A transistor operating in the linear region means that the transistor is acting like a resistor and continuously dissipating power.  Likewise the LED is continuously dissipating power.  One would think that the JT has an advantage here because it is a switching circuit where for most of the duty cycle the LED and transistor are not dissipating power.  Presumably oscillator operation demands that the battery still be capable of outputting some minimum voltage under load, whereas the whole idea behind the JT is that it can operate at very low minimum battery voltages, presumably lower than that of the comparable oscillator.  So the proof has to be in the pudding.

Also to be more accurate, most of the time the transistor is switched ON in a JT circuit and it is energizing the main coil and dissipating power.  However during this time the power consumption of the input side of the transistor is quite low.  Then when the transistor switches OFF the main coil dumps its stored energy though the LED to light it up.   So there is definitely near-continuous power dissipation associated with a JT circuit.

I always thought an interesting comparison would be between a CMOS 555 timer circuit with very carefully selected components lighting an LED and a JT circuit.  The CMOS 555 timer circuit can't operate at the very low voltages of a JT circuit but it probably would have a lower power overhead to keep it operating compared to a JT circuit.  You wonder which circuit would give you better overall performance in the long run.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 06, 2016, 03:13:10 AM
I think the problem is that any investigation into a JT circuit should be done in two steps.  The first step should be to understand how it operates in normal mode.  The second step is then to explore any possible self-resonant modes.  However, if it is running in some kind of self-resonant mode, then it is not really a JT any more, it's an oscillator.

Then there is another problem.  If you take a JT circuit and play with component values and turn it into an oscillator, then your claims of it running better and longer than a regular JT circuit would have to be proven on the bench.  A transistor operating in the linear region means that the transistor is acting like a resistor and continuously dissipating power.  Likewise the LED is continuously dissipating power.  One would think that the JT has an advantage here because it is a switching circuit where for most of the duty cycle the LED and transistor are not dissipating power.  Presumably oscillator operation demands that the battery still be capable of outputting some minimum voltage under load, whereas the whole idea behind the JT is that it can operate at very low minimum battery voltages, presumably lower than that of the comparable oscillator.  So the proof has to be in the pudding.

Also to be more accurate, most of the time the transistor is switched ON in a JT circuit and it is energizing the main coil and dissipating power.  However during this time the power consumption of the input side of the transistor is quite low.  Then when the transistor switches OFF the main coil dumps its stored energy though the LED to light it up.   So there is definitely near-continuous power dissipation associated with a JT circuit.

I always thought an interesting comparison would be between a CMOS 555 timer circuit with very carefully selected components lighting an LED and a JT circuit.  The CMOS 555 timer circuit can't operate at the very low voltages of a JT circuit but it probably would have a lower power overhead to keep it operating compared to a JT circuit.  You wonder which circuit would give you better overall performance in the long run.

I think a decent JT circuit would win this competition with the 555.  ONLY because it takes some energy to run the 555...and that is the only reason.
There is no magic to the JT BUT, we who experimented with them in the early days were told that conventional electronic theory explained them.  This, of course, is true.  My complaint was, then, why were they not being used in our electronics stuff?  Shortly thereafter, we saw those led garden lights, as well as many other items that actually were using a JT type circuit to its advantages.  Now I am happy.  Now we have chips that do this with minimum input and they are being used in everyday devices.  This answers my question from back then.

Still, no magic, no free lunch, no output more than input...just a good way to use most of the energy in a battery and get more light from leds than you otherwise could.

Damn MH, you and I used to argue about this all of the time and now I have to admit that you were right.  There is no "magic".
Son of a bitch, ha ha.

Bill

I still have not seen anyone else light 400 leds from a 'dead" AA battery like I have done.  No magic there either, just the right circuit for the desired outcome.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 06, 2016, 06:56:48 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU5x8T2UkuI

 8)
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 06, 2016, 01:08:34 PM

Also to be more accurate, most of the time the transistor is switched ON in a JT circuit and it is energizing the main coil and dissipating power. 

You are forgetting the reluctance factor of the inductor in self-resonance.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 06, 2016, 05:00:47 PM
You are forgetting the reluctance factor of the inductor in self-resonance.

I am not sure of what you mean by that.  The more information the better when discussing electronics.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 06, 2016, 05:10:40 PM
I think a decent JT circuit would win this competition with the 555.  ONLY because it takes some energy to run the 555...and that is the only reason.

I am assuming that it would take tens of microwatts to run the 555 including the carefully selected timing components (the "overhead" not counting flashing the LED) and the equivalent overhead for the JT would be on the order of milliwatts.  So if you are talking about very long run times it may be an interesting competition.  Of course you would have to put the actual LED flashing on a level playing field.

There was a chip from the mid 1970s, the LM3909, that was also a very efficient LED flasher.  You can look it up.  In fact, it looks to me like it may be more efficient because it doesn't use any inductive components.  It might make for a three-way horse race.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 06, 2016, 11:55:16 PM
What are they made of, gold and diamond dust? The cheapest I can find LM3909 is around 4 dollars each, from china, and even in quantity. Some people want much more than that. My favorite Chinese vendor UTSource wants $31.25 for a lot of 5 (but has another listing for 1 for $4.00). Go figure.

A couple of sellers in the UK want over $17 for _one_ (but with free shipping.)

So I'm not going to be testing one any time soon, unless someone else donates one or two to me.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 07, 2016, 12:32:12 AM
Rob Paisley has "reverse engineered" the LM3909 so that it can be simulated with discrete components.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/LM3909.html

Looks like an interesting project, but I still don't think it will compete with a JT. The Data Sheet for the LM3909 gives an "LED Boost" circuit that will drive an LED from 1.5 volt battery at 2 kHz... but it says it draws 4 mA.  Presumably that is an average, or equivalent-continuous, current drain. In which case, unless the LED is unusually brilliant.... well, it's not really that great.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 07, 2016, 05:57:19 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU5x8T2UkuI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU5x8T2UkuI)

 8)

Nice video TK, wow that is really small.  Very cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHmTc0PwiyY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHmTc0PwiyY)

Here is a vid from Ludic Science making a JT without a transistor.  He said he is replicating Lidmotor's circuit...I had forgotten about that one  This is pretty simple and cool.  I suppose it is really just a very simple and basic relay/solenoid  type device but man, I would have never thought of this in a million years.

Bill

Here is Lidmotor's original video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjqBRXU3XnU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjqBRXU3XnU)
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 07, 2016, 08:27:16 AM
Even smaller:

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 07, 2016, 09:45:47 AM
I am not sure of what you mean by that.  The more information the better when discussing electronics.


ummm

ok

Ampere Turns per Weber
Reluctance (R) = MagnetoMotive Force (Ampere-turns) divided by Flux in Webers.
Hopkinson's law

Length of the wire divided by the cross-sectional area times the magnetic permeability of the material....

It translates directly to Henries, of magnitude, and in self-resonance, reluctance becomes = 0.
The capacitive counterpart also disappears and the capacitor itself takes on a purely inductive behavior.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-TW&u=http://140.114.17.97/circuit/ch14.htm&prev=search (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-TW&u=http://140.114.17.97/circuit/ch14.htm&prev=search)


In the future if you want to play ignorant with me,.. please go back and delete all your posts where you discuss the details of that which you claim to not know......
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 07, 2016, 11:45:01 AM
No, I am simply asking you what kind of point you are trying to make, I was not asking you for definitions.  I made a point that the JT circuit was basically continuously drawing power from the supply battery under normal operation and your response was, "You are forgetting the reluctance factor of the inductor in self-resonance."

What kind of a connection are you making and what kind of point are you trying to make?  I know what self-resonance of a coil is but I don't know what you mean by "reluctance factor" here.  I know what the reluctance of a magnetic flux path is.  A coil with a core material in self-resonance will act as an AC short-circuit and you are left with the DC resistance of the wire.  Presumably the core material will also burn off a certain amount of power due to hysteresis.

If I assume a standard JT circuit but no explanation for how it is operating as an oscillator and how self-resonance of the coil ties into all of this and what a "reluctance factor" is and having no timing diagrams, I am simply not sure what you are meaning and what kind of point you are trying to get across.

Call it a little pet peeve of mine if you want, but the forums have thousands of "discussions" about electronics by people with limited knowledge of electronics with no schematics to reference and no timing diagrams.  In almost every case they are pretentious nonsense discussions that don't really mean anything and are in essence unworkable wild speculation in the from of a fake back-and-forth dialogue between two posters that is disconnected from the reality of the circuit.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 07, 2016, 02:27:44 PM
Even smaller:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekPh9p4YECE
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 07, 2016, 03:35:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekPh9p4YECE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekPh9p4YECE)

Brad:

Nice.  I have about 40 of those led garden light circuit boards lying around here, those chips they use make a decent JT.
Is that button cell 3 volts or 1.5?  Will it run those down to low voltage as well?

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 07, 2016, 06:25:26 PM
No, I am simply asking you what kind of point you are trying to make, I was not asking you for definitions.  I made a point that the JT circuit was basically continuously drawing power from the supply battery under normal operation and your response was, "You are forgetting the reluctance factor of the inductor in self-resonance."

What kind of a connection are you making and what kind of point are you trying to make?  I know what self-resonance of a coil is but I don't know what you mean by "reluctance factor" here.  I know what the reluctance of a magnetic flux path is.  A coil with a core material in self-resonance will act as an AC short-circuit and you are left with the DC resistance of the wire.  Presumably the core material will also burn off a certain amount of power due to hysteresis.
yes. That IS the point I am trying to make. magnetic reluctance becomes non-effective in the circuit. There is no effective "resistance" placed on the wire by the induction of the core material.
Yet, the core material still becomes energized, and the resultant field collapse represents itself through the coils inductance. Hysteresis is minimized in resonant operation of the core. The flux graph is sinusoidal as well, 90-degrees to the electric.

Quote

If I assume a standard JT circuit but no explanation for how it is operating as an oscillator and how self-resonance of the coil ties into all of this and what a "reluctance factor" is and having no timing diagrams, I am simply not sure what you are meaning and what kind of point you are trying to get across.

Call it a little pet peeve of mine if you want, but the forums have thousands of "discussions" about electronics by people with limited knowledge of electronics with no schematics to reference and no timing diagrams.  In almost every case they are pretentious nonsense discussions that don't really mean anything and are in essence unworkable wild speculation in the from of a fake back-and-forth dialogue between two posters that is disconnected from the reality of the circuit.

to that I agree.

The "reality" of the circuit, was presented by Edwin Armstrong in 1912. This is designed to be a resonant tank circuit. It was used exclusively in the Steven Mark TPU, as the prime exciter.
The same technology which powered radios in the 1940's before we had commercial batteries.
these radios (although not very loud) required no external power source. Not only that, they were well known at the time, for building up radio interference waves that would disrupt signals for miles around the device. Which ultimately led to its' replacement by a less invasive technology.

"Constructive Interference", "Positive Feedback"

If you somehow missed this point during the 136,000 pages of Joule Thief discussion, then I apologize for jumping on your case. I assumed you already knew what we were talking about here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Modern day "joule thieves" place switching transistors in digital mode with inefficient diodes, successfully destroying the resonant effect.

There is still "some effect", because of the natural SRF of the circuit being the dominant factor between the inductor and the tank. but it is disrupted during each cycle, thus a heavier drain on the source than a resonant LRC would or should represent in ideal operation.

This is why a modern day analysis of a JT circuit, observes a wide range of inefficiencies in the circuit.

It is a simple concept, which Americans are indoctrinated to NOT observe.
they teach us these things are bad in circuits, and every way to get RID of this effect.
simply reverse your training to do the opposite.

invite these extra energy levels to build up all they want to :)
like strumming a string over the resonant cavity of the guitar.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are two images of transistors switching. the one on the left is a transistor operating outside of linear mode. There no be resonance when the transistor scope shot looks like this.

The image on the right shows a transistor operating in the range of its' linear mode of operation. due to the particular circuit it is in, it is biased slightly below the actual linear value, but still within the range.
Notice, that the signal shown on the scope is the input signal, NOT the transistor function.

 

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 07, 2016, 06:28:58 PM
if you look closely to the image on the right, you notice the 6th harmonic representing itself as a positive feedback spike. this is not part of the original input signal, but part of the output of the tank.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 07, 2016, 08:31:35 PM
Smoky2:

It sounds to me like you have a moderate case of "resonance fetish" for lack of a better term.  The idea that resonance is somehow special and suggesting that students of electronics are "indoctrinated to NOT observe (it)" is all part and parcel of the fetish.

For starters, I sometimes agonize about the concept of an inductor in self-resonance.  In the real world of electronics, that just means that the inductor is crapping out and failing to function as an inductor at the self-resonant frequency.  It's something that an electronics designer wants to avoid, not "take advantage of."  I also agonize about my comment about the inductor acting like a series LC circuit at self-resonance and having minimum AC impedance.  My first intuitive sense is that the model for an inductor is like a parallel LC circuit as shown in the attached diagram.  That means it has maximum impedance at self-resonance.

This is all backed up in this link:  http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/self-resonant_frequency_of_inductors.htm (http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/self-resonant_frequency_of_inductors.htm)

So I am unsure about this discussion and the answer is ultimately to be found in an actual circuit under test on the bench.  I will just repeat that it is essentially impossible to have a hypothetical discussion like we are having with no circuit, no explanation for how it operates, no schematic, and no timing diagrams.

Now, going back to the basic Joule Thief model, you seem to be implying that if it was operating in some kind of self-resonant mode of the main inductor that forms the transformer core of the device, then it would outperform a comparable Joule Thief operating in its normal mode at a given operating frequency as a switching device.  I have no data at all about that, but my instincts are telling me that that is highly unlikely.

Note that a Joule Thief when operating normally has nothing to do with resonance, which I assume you would agree.  It is just a switching device operating at a given frequency based on component values.

Going back to a Joule Thief operating in some kind of "self-resonant mode" there are lots of issues to ponder about that.  For starters, the transistor can only draw current through the main coil in one direction, but resonance means that current is supposed to flow in two directions, so that is somewhat of a paradox.   If the transistor is operating in its linear region, then that means within the signal there is a DC current drain from the battery through the main coil through the transistor to ground.  So that can't be good for the efficiency of the JT overall because the coil and the transistor are both acting like dumb resistors and producing heat.  Also, in true resonance, there is no magnetic field collapse that outputs energy into a useful load like the LED.  Instead, the magnetic field collapse goes back into the electric field inside the coil.

The bottom line is this:  I am sure you can mange to hack a JT circuit so that some kind of high frequency oscillation takes place and the LED lights up.  I am not convinced at all that that is related to the self-resonant frequency of the main coil of the JT transformer at all.  I would suspect that any operation at the true self-resonant frequency of the main coil would not really work, the circuit would crap out.  Rather, I suspect that the oscillation is based on some kind of positive feedback between the transistor acting as an amplification device and the JT transformer with some kind of capacitive coupling through a transistor junction being a critical element in the feedback loop.  No matter the case, an investigation into exactly why and how it is oscillating would require some pretty decent electronics smarts and very decent bench skills of which very few on this forum would be in a position to do.  I doubt that I would be able to do it myself unaided but I would be able to follow it and understand it.  It is highly likely that any kind of oscillation mode will light up the JT more efficiently than the JT operating as a simple switching device that energizes an inductor and then discharges it through a LED.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 07, 2016, 09:02:54 PM
Smoky2:

Some more comments.

You make reference to resonant radio circuits as in a crystal radio, and I don't see how that applies here.

Quote
Modern day "joule thieves" place switching transistors in digital mode with inefficient diodes, successfully destroying the resonant effect.

Yes, but what is implicit in what I say about the JT in oscillation in my previous posting is that there is no "resonant effect" in the way you are suggesting.  There is no special advantageous "effect" that people are "destroying."  I don't know what you mean by "inefficient diodes."

Quote
There is still "some effect", because of the natural SRF of the circuit being the dominant factor between the inductor and the tank. but it is disrupted during each cycle, thus a heavier drain on the source than a resonant LRC would or should represent in ideal operation.

Well like I said, the "self-resonant frequency" of the JT circuit in normal operation has zero to do with resonance and what it really is simply an operating frequency based on component values.  It's like for a 555 timer where you select component values.  There is no resonance taking place in a 555 timer when it operates as an astable multivibrator.  So there is no partial "effect."

Quote
It is a simple concept, which Americans are indoctrinated to NOT observe.
they teach us these things are bad in circuits, and every way to get RID of this effect.
simply reverse your training to do the opposite.

Sorry but I think it is worth hammering home the point that there is no indoctrination, nothing "bad," no "effect" and no "negative training."  There is no true "alternative way to look at a Joule Thief circuit that 'they' 'don't want you to know.'"  Rather, if you want to learn and master switching circuits then great.  if you want to learn and master basic oscillator circuits using various feedback loops then great.  When you have a mastery of both types of circuits, then can you set up scenarios where switching circuits with built-in amplification will edge towards self-oscillation and understand the whys and the hows?  You bet you can do this if you climb up the learning and experience curve.

So anyway, I wrote this all up to demystify your prose and bring the discussion back to something more rooted in the mundane reality of life.  There is absolutely nothing special about Joule Thief circuits and there is absolutely no "hidden knowledge to uncover" about Joule Thief circuits.  If a Joule Thief circuit can be coaxed into oscillating, then the real thing to do is understand why if you are so inclined.  However, if you are just looking at the net result - how much perceived LED brightness do I get for a given amount of power input, I seriously doubt that any non-standard Joule Thief oscillation mode will outperform a Joule Thief in normal operation mode.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 07, 2016, 09:28:57 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekPh9p4YECE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekPh9p4YECE)

Very nice! I wish I could grow peas that big in my garden!

I wonder how small your circuit would be if you put it on a circuit board, with input and output connectors so you could use 2 or 3 LEDs in series and run them off of assorted dead button cells without soldering anything.

Somewhere I drew up the circuits using two different types of chips from garden lights but I can't find them at the moment, I have so many different JT circuits in various places on this computer. It's getting hard to remember where I put stuff.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 08, 2016, 12:07:19 AM
Brad:

Nice.  I have about 40 of those led garden light circuit boards lying around here, those chips they use make a decent JT.
Is that button cell 3 volts or 1.5?  Will it run those down to low voltage as well?

Bill

Hi Bill

Yes,the garden light IC's are extremely small. The battery is a 1.5v battery--that is why you need the small inductor. It will run down to a battery voltage of about .6v.

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 08, 2016, 12:25:41 AM
Very nice! I wish I could grow peas that big in my garden!

I wonder how small your circuit would be if you put it on a circuit board, with input and output connectors so you could use 2 or 3 LEDs in series and run them off of assorted dead button cells without soldering anything.

Somewhere I drew up the circuits using two different types of chips from garden lights but I can't find them at the moment, I have so many different JT circuits in various places on this computer. It's getting hard to remember where I put stuff.

Well the LED is just a 5mm LED,and the pea was from a frozen packet of pea's--nothing large at all-well no here any way.

I doubt very much that the small garden light chip would drive 3 LED's as bright as you have yours going there though.

Your circuits seem to be as well organized on your computer as mine are--all over the place,burried in many different files/folders :)


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 08, 2016, 10:08:22 AM
Smoky2:

For starters, I sometimes agonize about the concept of an inductor in self-resonance.  In the real world of electronics, that just means that the inductor is crapping out and failing to function as an inductor at the self-resonant frequency.  It's something that an electronics designer wants to avoid, not "take advantage of."  I also agonize about my comment about the inductor acting like a series LC circuit at self-resonance and having minimum AC impedance.  My first intuitive sense is that the model for an inductor is like a parallel LC circuit as shown in the attached diagram.  That means it has maximum impedance at self-resonance.

The irony of this situation, is that you defend your position by quoting said indoctrinated sources....
"electronics designer wants to avoid",.. hmm why is that? do you think? Is it because the results become unpredictable by normal circuit analysis? and "data" as we consider it to be becomes useless or unstable? Thinking of ways to take advantage of this, is exactly what we SHOULD be doing in energy research.

Impedance is a purely electrical function, and at SRF the inductor has a purely capacitive response.
"impedance" through the magnetic portion of the circuit, as you would call it, peaks at a maximum at one half of one half of the waveform (1/4 wave). exactly the opposite occurs when the field collapses, and these two balance each other out perfectly. Hence the term resonance.

Reluctance, on the other hand, which is a purely magnetic function, and at 90-degrees to the electric, this has a value of 0 at SRF, allows the field of the coil to induce a flux in the field of the core material, as a natural response to the resonations within the core itself.
Not as a current-driven forced event.

This is the most important point to get, if nothing else I have stated sinks in.


Quote
So I am unsure about this discussion and the answer is ultimately to be found in an actual circuit under test on the bench.  I will just repeat that it is essentially impossible to have a hypothetical discussion like we are having with no circuit, no explanation for how it operates, no schematic, and no timing diagrams.

Now, going back to the basic Joule Thief model, you seem to be implying that if it was operating in some kind of self-resonant mode of the main inductor that forms the transformer core of the device, then it would outperform a comparable Joule Thief operating in its normal mode at a given operating frequency as a switching device.  I have no data at all about that, but my instincts are telling me that that is highly unlikely.

I hereby give your instincts a challenge. Test this for yourself.
Not just by some arbitrary value like "longer run times",. but by measuring the current draw through the battery or source of the circuit, and compare this to the scope image of the coil across the inductor,
then compare this to the output of a secondary coil around the core.

A transistor in linear mode acts like its comparable diode-tube counterpart.
in fact the transistor could be replaced by a triode or something similar.
or dare I mention using something like a self-oscillating quartz resonator used in certain german watches back in the 80s.....

Quote
Note that a Joule Thief when operating normally has nothing to do with resonance, which I assume you would agree.  It is just a switching device operating at a given frequency based on component values.

"operating normally" is a vague term when it comes to a device that has been re-engineered in over 100 renditions since Bruce cracked the code on the Steven Marks device....

If you consider a "normally operating joule thief" to be a copy of the one on the Instructables Video
Then yes, I agree it is just a switching device that is most likely oscillating at a frequency incoherent to any SRF of the circuit.

This is because the step-by-step instructions do not include a background of knowledge and education required to understand the true operation of the device. What is given, is a tutorial to build a minimalist version of the oscillator, that is non-self-resonant.

Quote

Going back to a Joule Thief operating in some kind of "self-resonant mode" there are lots of issues to ponder about that.  For starters, the transistor can only draw current through the main coil in one direction, but resonance means that current is supposed to flow in two directions, so that is somewhat of a paradox.   If the transistor is operating in its linear region, then that means within the signal there is a DC current drain from the battery through the main coil through the transistor to ground.  So that can't be good for the efficiency of the JT overall because the coil and the transistor are both acting like dumb resistors and producing heat.  Also, in true resonance, there is no magnetic field collapse that outputs energy into a useful load like the LED.  Instead, the magnetic field collapse goes back into the electric field inside the coil.
This is why I said the LED is just an indicator, meant for dummies to know their "JT" is working....
you can throw the LED away, or bypass its drain on the oscillations, by using a capacitor of appropriate value.


Quote

The bottom line is this:  I am sure you can mange to hack a JT circuit so that some kind of high frequency oscillation takes place and the LED lights up.  I am not convinced at all that that is related to the self-resonant frequency of the main coil of the JT transformer at all.  I would suspect that any operation at the true self-resonant frequency of the main coil would not really work, the circuit would crap out.  Rather, I suspect that the oscillation is based on some kind of positive feedback between the transistor acting as an amplification device and the JT transformer with some kind of capacitive coupling through a transistor junction being a critical element in the feedback loop.  No matter the case, an investigation into exactly why and how it is oscillating would require some pretty decent electronics smarts and very decent bench skills of which very few on this forum would be in a position to do.  I doubt that I would be able to do it myself unaided but I would be able to follow it and understand it.  It is highly likely that any kind of oscillation mode will light up the JT more efficiently than the JT operating as a simple switching device that energizes an inductor and then discharges it through a LED.

MileHigh

about the circuit crapping out - yes if you take the SRF of most cores and try to run your circuit at that frequency. Better to select a lower resonant node of the cores SRF, which also is an resonant node of the SRF freq. of the LRC of the coil. (and caps if used) - which can be blindly tuned in most cases, by using a variable resistor across the base and carefully observing your oscilloscope.

As for others being able to do this,. yes, read through the JT threads and you see that many are capable of, and do do this.... unfortunately, most of them missed the point, and although they did "tune" into what appeared to be resonant nodes, they usually went right passed them to the nearest peak brightness of the LED, which results in a decay function of the oscillations - more current draw from the source.

This is evident in a few of their scope shots.

sometimes I just feel like im beating my head into the wall... The ones that get it do all sorts of things with this knowledge.. for instance my older brother builds guitar pedals with a JT inside, and never has to worry about replacing the batteries. Most of his house is decked out with LED JT's that have run for years. If he could get one to run his TV hed probably fire the power company.

He's a music major, so he knows all about constructive interference, resonant harmonics, etc...
But even he didn't get it at first. it took me almost 2 years to get him to understand the importance of resonance in this circuit. Once he saw it happen on his scope, it was like a whole world opened up. Now he loves the joule thieves. I go to his house and he has dozens of them, in flashlights, in Altoid Cans, hes taken this further than I ever could. To the point of choosing his own transistors, depending on the waveform he wants, he swears by the old germanium ones. says they work the best.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 08, 2016, 12:14:04 PM
Like in a subwoofer system, a sealed box vs a vented/bass reflex box. The pic below shows the sealed box 3cu ft in yellow and the vented 3cu ft box in green tuned to 30hz.

Just by adding a vent tube of a certain size and certain length to the same box we get a 9db gain at 25hz and nearly 7db at 30 hz. 9db increase is equal to a 3 fold input  power increase. Example  to increase 9db from 500w input would take 4kw. So just by enabling the use of resonance the output is increased.  And in this case there is an increase of some sort across the board of sub listening range.

If so, then why not in an electronic circuit? ;)

Mags

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 08, 2016, 12:48:01 PM
Smoky2:

In this response I am going to be somewhat minimalist and not quote you, but I will still respond to what you are saying.  The real arbiter of a lot of the points being made is the bench, and I am not in a position to go onto a bench.

I have been watching some debates on YouTube recently about atheism vs. religion and also some debates about evolution vs. creationism.  I see a real tangible parallel with this debate where I take the atheist/scientist side and you take the religious/mystical side.  I submit to you that you have some ideas that are "out there" about electronics stemming from ignorance and/or false beliefs.  Nor do I claim to be an expert on electronics but I can speak reasonably well on the subject.  It's worth it for any person with an active mind to look up the YouTube debates I mentioned.

All that being said, some rebuttals:

- I strongly object to the use of the term "indoctrinated" when it comes to getting a formal education about electronics.

- Electronics designers put a component in a circuit to perform a specific function.  If the component fails to perform the desired function at the required frequency, then you change the component.  Normally there is no chance of finding "advantage" in a situation like this.

- An inductor does not have a "purely capacitive response" at the SRF.  That is simply not the definition of what happens at the SRF.

- You talk about a 1/4 wavelength without saying how the fundamental is defined.  Nor do I think that transmission line and antenna type concepts apply here but I would leave that to experts like Verpies and others to comment on.

- You relate "resonance" to a field collapse and 1/4 wavelengths.  Can you define resonance at the most basic level without even discussing frequency or impedance?  it's important to know what it really means.

- Reluctance does not have a value of 0 at SRF and the whole concept is invalid and makes no sense.

- It makes no sense to measure the current craw of a JT and then compare it with the voltage across a coil.  On face value that makes no sense and the units are not comparable and you would have to add to what you are saying for it to make sense.

- There is no real point in comparing a transistor to a tube in the sense that yes indeed they can perform similar functions but so what?  I fail to see any tangible connection between a transistor operating in linear mode and a quartz timing crystal.

- When I say "operating normally" I am referring to a vanilla JT circuit.

- I would say that the LED is the standard load for a standard JT configuration.  If you replace the LED with a capacitor and presumably some kind of useful load is across the capacitor then you have a primitive buck, boost, or buck/boost converter.

- Using a variable base resistor in a JT circuit will change it's operating parameters and everybody does it.  In a way it's a shame because the real exercise is supposed to be to determine the optimum value for the base resistor.  In a standard JT circuit the base resistor by design is not supposed to be varied.

- I agree that a JT can be tuned but it's not in the way that you are thinking.  The real exercise is to experiment with the JT circuit and see how you can change the frequency and energy of the pulse discharge that lights the LED.  There are no "resonant modes" to find.  Rather, the exercise should be to see what you can do in terms of pulse frequency and energy and initial current and relate that back to perceived brightness and associated power draw.  That would be the real exercise in understanding how the JT works as a switching pulse circuit.

- You are simply quoting anecdotal evidence about your brother's experience so far.  Everybody knows that a JT circuit will suck a battery dry and the same thing will eventually happen with your brother's projects - he hasn't "struck magic."

- Naturally I can't really comment on your brother's circuits, I can just reiterate that a standard JT circuit has nothing to do with resonance at all.

If I could summarize this succinctly I would say that things have to be done one step at a time.  If the JT experimenter could master the original JT first, and truly understood all the issues, then they could look at modifying it and start hacking into it and start getting it to resonate in various ways.  However, then it simply wouldn't be a Joule Thief anymore.

Anyway, you can see there is a divide between what I am saying and what you are saying.  I disagree with your quasi-mystical descriptions of what a Joule Thief is all about and is capable of doing.  There is no point in looking for something esoteric without having a basic and complete understanding of how it works first.  The classic example for that is having a JT light a long string of LEDs in series.  People will play with that without understanding why that happens.  If you truly know how a basic JT works first, then there is no surprise or anything special about a JT lighting a long string of LEDs.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: allcanadian on February 09, 2016, 05:36:48 AM
@MH
Quote
I have been watching some debates on YouTube recently about atheism vs. religion and also some debates about evolution vs. creationism.  I see a real tangible parallel with this debate where I take the atheist/scientist side and you take the religious/mystical side.  I submit to you that you have some ideas that are "out there" about electronics stemming from ignorance and/or false beliefs.  Nor do I claim to be an expert on electronics but I can speak reasonably well on the subject.  It's worth it for any person with an active mind to look up the YouTube debates I mentioned.


The innovator's proclaimed we are the future and the critics replied-"you cannot withstand the storm". The innovators responded... "We are the Storm".


Ignorance and false beliefs are subjective and vary in time. They said many technologies were impossible 200 years ago and yet here we are, aren't we?. Thus I can only imagine what is called mystical if not impossible today may become an obvious reality in the future.


I watched those debates on youtube and it was pretty comical. My god that poor old christian soul didn't have a leg to stand on. It reminds me of the good christian soldier who prayed to god each morning then carpet bombed innocent civilians in the afternoon because someone told him to. Uhm... just because someone else told them to and apparently this isn't an issue. Personally, if anyone told me to carpet bomb, maim or torture civilians I would tell them to go fuck themselves but that's just me the Atheist.


In any case I can respect the fact that people are entitled to their own beliefs, I have no issue with that. However they should not expect me to keep a straight face or think they have any credibility when they tell me they believe a bearded man in a white dress created the universe in six days. That wasn't part of the bargain and many seem to confuse the right to believe with the right to be respected for a belief and think it cannot be questioned.


Strange world we live in... never a dull moment.




AC
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 09, 2016, 07:01:10 AM
@ Mags

nice presentation

@MH

I can't debate you point over point as you take things out of context...

of course you wouldn't compare only current to only voltage... you compare both to both, over time.

In Physics, the term Resonance is defined as: the reinforcement or prolongation of radiation by reflection from a surface or by the synchronous vibration of a neighboring object. (reverberation)

This definition is very vague and arbitrary and does not describe the details that occur during such an event.
While not every definition of resonance includes the term frequency, or interval of emanation, or any other word used to describe a comparable factor among the components that are said to resonate...
Frequency can be used to compare resonant effects.

The demonstration given above by Mags contains some of those such details.

The most important being that resonant waveforms combine with a particular type of interference.
"Constructive Interference" - this means that along the medium, the two combining waves have a displacement in the same vector. This translates to an increase in Amplitude of the combined waveform, when compared to the original waves. Not all constructive interference is a result of resonance. resonance pertains to a particular relationship between the things "resonating". This can be described as a frequency, or set of frequencies.
You can use other qualities of the resonant waveform to describe it if you wish. I prefer frequencies because it's like an abbreviation, instead of talking about how many times per minute 13 pulses (and their inverse) traveled down the wire....
or some other arbitrary concept used to describe pulses through a circuit.



Similar resonance that occurs with sound, also occurs with all other forms of radiation.
A)Two coherent phase lasers combine with amplitudes that are greater than a simple addition of the two beams.

B)In atomic radiation, close to critical mass, - aside from emissions of high-energy particles causing physical reactions in nearby atoms, there is a radioactive frequency-based effect, that irradiates nearby (nonreactive) atoms, and causes them to resonate at or near the SRF of the reactive atoms. It makes them radioactive. Not by a neutron striking random atoms and increasing their energy levels, but every atom within an irradiated substance increases energy by absorption of the radiating energy into the nuclei. and will radiate this frequency for quite some time. Constructive interference of two radioactive atoms, increases the effective radius of the radiating energy field (with respect to that of a single atom). The energy value for this increase is ^2 (exponential).

C) Heat radiation (in certain discrete conditions) radiates at particular frequencies, or intervals of heat emission.
When two heat waves combine in constructive interference, the amplitude (value of heat) observed at the point of interference, is greater than the addition of the two heat waves.

D) Electricity - when you combine two electrical waveforms in constructive interference, the amplitude of the combined waveform increases as a quantitative factor of the frequency. The "actual" combined waveform is affected by the resistance of the circuit, the speed of propagation, and other factors which make the affect vary slightly from that of sound and light. When these factors are properly taken into account, and invariable constants applied, the resulting complex equation is equivalent to a standard interference analysis as A-c above.

E)Physical Vibration - physical vibrations operate much like a soundwave through a solid mass. Constructive interference of physical vibrations increases in amplitude exactly the same as described above. In addition to the physical waves, there is a component of physical dimension that causes interference feedback. (resonant cavity)

These concepts apply to every branch of physics.
electronics is not excluded. there are REASONS engineers implement counter-resonant tactics to stop this effect from occurring.

MOST of these reasons pertain to circuit stability, and being able to perform the particular function for which the circuit was designed. (you ever watch a radio tower transformer explode from resonant waveforms building up in the antennae?)
This is basically what you were stating, but leads me to ask the question::

For what particular function is your Joule Thief designed?

or did you just copy the instructable?

Resonance is not a mythical belief system, it is a natural occurrence. It is the operating function of the cells that keep you alive, and were it not precisely controlled in your microprocessor, the computer you are using right now would not function. It would simply build up the 2.1Ghz (or whatever) waveform until it shorted out across the silicon.



Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: allcanadian on February 09, 2016, 07:59:08 AM
@smoky2
Quote
D) Electricity - when you combine two electrical waveforms in constructive interference, the amplitude of the combined waveform increases as a quantitative factor of the frequency. The "actual" combined waveform is affected by the resistance of the circuit, the speed of propagation, and other factors which make the affect vary slightly from that of sound and light. When these factors are properly taken into account, and invariable constants applied, the resulting complex equation is equivalent to a standard interference analysis as A-c above.


Just this morning I read an article on room temperature superconductors which implied that the atomic structure which formed along lines or lattice in the material played a major role. I was theorized that the structures formed a wave guide of sorts resonant with the free electrons themselves promoting a self-organizing flow along said lines or super-conduction.


Strange that something which doesn't seem all that complicated could baffle so many for so long. It may be that the term resistance could be described by the scattering effect causing dissipation within the lattice but is not inherent in all materials nor a fundamental law of nature. It would seem resistance only applies to those who cannot wrap their mind around the problem or find creative solutions to work around it as is often the case.


It's always easy after the fact, getting to the after part is the problem.




AC
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 09, 2016, 08:01:59 AM
If you wish to explore this further, the only place I CAN send you is to the bench.

https://wiki.analog.com/university/courses/electronics/comms-lab-isr (https://wiki.analog.com/university/courses/electronics/comms-lab-isr)
This is the very basics of resonance, and pertains mostly to the effects on the coil.
The core used in this experiment assumes the permeability of free space. (air).

Adding a magnetically inductive core, like a ceramic ferrite, can be examined in a similar manner.
Here is someone elses benchwork on this subject.
http://g3rbj.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Self-Resonance-in-Toroidal-Inductors.pdf (http://g3rbj.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Self-Resonance-in-Toroidal-Inductors.pdf)




Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 09, 2016, 10:10:32 AM
6-pad JT + depleted LR44 button cell >> 24 white LEDs (2s12p):

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 09, 2016, 01:56:15 PM
Smoky2:

Resonance is an energy storage mechanism.  The critical point being that it is a storage mechanism for energy, it is never a source of energy.

The fundamental description of resonance is that it is a mechanism that stores energy by continuously transforming it back and forth between two complimentary and separate energy storage entities.  In an LC resonator the energy is stored either as voltage across a capacitor or as current flowing through and inductor.  The frequency is determined by the size of the capacitance and the size of the inductance.  That is the basic bare-bones explanation I was looking for.

So for example when a table resonates, the identical process is taking place where energy is stored in two complimentary forms and transfers back and forth between those two forms.

No matter what kind of resonance you are talking about, the same two fundamental properties can be identified and observed.  If you cannot identify and observe them then it is not resonance.

A lot of what you are mentioning is about external signals and how they affect a resonant system where the resonant system has a certain response.  There you are looking at a resonant system acting like a filter to an external stimulus.  Resonance is not really about constructive and destructive interference between two waveforms, that's a whole different story.

So, is a Joule Thief that is operating normally something that demonstrates resonance?  The answer is no.

Quote
Resonance is not a mythical belief system, it is a natural occurrence. It is the operating function of the cells that keep you alive, and were it not precisely controlled in your microprocessor, the computer you are using right now would not function. It would simply build up the 2.1Ghz (or whatever) waveform until it shorted out across the silicon.

I don't see anything to do with resonance in living cells.  You can see how easy it is to abuse the term.  You comment about a computer is bizarre. A computer is typically clocked by a crystal oscillator, but that is about as far as it goes.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 09, 2016, 02:15:19 PM
If you wish to explore this further, the only place I CAN send you is to the bench.

https://wiki.analog.com/university/courses/electronics/comms-lab-isr (https://wiki.analog.com/university/courses/electronics/comms-lab-isr)
This is the very basics of resonance, and pertains mostly to the effects on the coil.
The core used in this experiment assumes the permeability of free space. (air).

Adding a magnetically inductive core, like a ceramic ferrite, can be examined in a similar manner.
Here is someone elses benchwork on this subject.
http://g3rbj.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Self-Resonance-in-Toroidal-Inductors.pdf (http://g3rbj.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Self-Resonance-in-Toroidal-Inductors.pdf)

In the first link they also model a coil as a parallel LC resonator.   That means at the self-resonant frequency the coil blocks the resonant AC frequency and will not let it pass through the coil.  The coil is acting as a notch filter and will shut down and block any AC activity at the resonant frequency.

That means that when you observe a hacked Joule Thief "in a resonant mode" it almost certainly has nothing to do with the SRF of the coil.  Rather, it is like I said to you before, the resonant oscillation requires the transistor to power the resonance in some kind of positive feedback loop and the resonant frequency is determined by some of the components in the circuit, but not by the SRF of the coil itself.

Even if you add a ferrite core, the coil is still modeled as a parallel LC resonator and will act like a narrow notch filter.  It is all fine and dandy to find the self-resonant frequency of a coil, and depending on the coil and the frequency, it might sometimes also be modeled as a series LC resonator and then act like a narrow band pass filter.

The bottom line is it really does not matter.  In the real world of electronics nobody is too interested in coil self-resonance because there is nothing magical or special that you can do with it.  If they need a parallel or a series resonator, they will do it with discrete capacitors and inductors.  That way you have full control over what you are doing.

To repeat, there is nothing special about a self-resonating coil.  There are dozens of threads about self-resonating coils and they are mainly fanboy threads that imagine all sorts of amazing things but they are not true.  A self-resonating coil is sort of like a coil undergoing a spastic seizure and failing to do what it is supposed to do which is be an inductor.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 09, 2016, 05:20:17 PM
Smoky2:

A computer is typically clocked by a crystal oscillator, but that is about as far as it goes.

MileHigh

so theres absolutely no reason for a computer engineer to concern themselves with concepts like:
angle of incidence
wavelength, with respect to the thickness of the semiconductor
and im sure it's just a coincidence that both Green's function and the Hemholtz equations coorespond precisely to Maxwell's equations and the Huygens principal....

we can throw away all these textbooks now, and tell the guys down in the Intel Lab to go home..
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 09, 2016, 06:16:51 PM
In the first link they also model a coil as a parallel LC resonator.   That means at the self-resonant frequency the coil blocks the resonant AC frequency and will not let it pass through the coil.  The coil is acting as a notch filter and will shut down and block any AC activity at the resonant frequency.

That means that when you observe a hacked Joule Thief "in a resonant mode" it almost certainly has nothing to do with the SRF of the coil.  Rather, it is like I said to you before, the resonant oscillation requires the transistor to power the resonance in some kind of positive feedback loop and the resonant frequency is determined by some of the components in the circuit, but not by the SRF of the coil itself.

again you are missing the point.  "hacking" a non-resonant JT to cause it to resonate, - yes, this is far from a symmetrical balance between the SRF of the coil and the SRF of the core (ideal situation). What is being done here, is changing the capacitance of the coil, with respect to the parasitic capacitance of the core. This, in effect, brings the two waveforms into a resonant node. Meaning, both waveforms have a displacement in the same vector.
This is observable in the scope image (even partially in abrupt non-linear switching), as well as in the brightness of an indicator (LED), or a measurement of the intensity of the field around the inductor.

Even the most adamant debater against the concept of resonance and constructive interference in electronics circuits, can easily demonstrate the frequency-based efficiency response of biasing the base resistor of a JT.
thus what I have stated above corresponds to experimental results across the board.
Regardless of your perspective of "what is occurring", it still occurs.

the SRF of the coil, by itself means nothing, we can't actually use it, because at SRF the coil no longer does what we want it to do. lower than it does what we want, higher than it does the opposite, but at the SRF it does not.

the SRF of Core material behaves like the exact inverse of the coil in these regards.
Inverse is the important key word here. One is magnetic, the other is electric, and they cross at 90-degrees.

when the two are set to resonate, in an LRC tank circuit, they behave the closets to the ideal tank that we humans can build. mathematically, experimentally, and in practice. When coordinated with an external parallel capacitance, and resistance of appropriate value, this tank can be demonstrated to continue resonant oscillations until all of the energy is dissipated as heat. A direct function of circuit resistance.
This has been known in electronics theory since the time of the radio.
We can argue about the whys and why nots until we are old and grey,
but the whats still occur when you build them.

You keep reverting back to "standard use of components in electronic circuitry", when the very concept we are talking about is what Electronics as a whole teaches us NOT to do... Almost every electronics circuit in use today relies on the coherency of data. without the data the device is "useless". We cannot use resonant waveforms in electronics. Amplitudes build up in ways not always predictable by theory, at least not in a manner in which all values can be accounted for within a feasible device. And something as simple as sending a text message would result in garblygook on the other end. We wouldn't even get that far, because the software code itself wouldn't function properly. We can't save files, we can't READ files, error correction goes completely out the window.
on an even deeper level, the voltages and current values at the terminals of our IC chips would not be the expected values, and its very likely that we will burn up components all over our circuit.
There are reasons they teach us not to use the components in this manner.
Not to mention the fieldday the FCC would have from such a radiating computer system.

it seems we just keep going in circles, I tell you how to do it, and you tell me why you don't think it works they way I describe it. The results are the same, regardless of perspective. so,. (bangs head on wall)....

Quote
Even if you add a ferrite core, the coil is still modeled as a parallel LC resonator and will act like a narrow notch filter.  It is all fine and dandy to find the self-resonant frequency of a coil, and depending on the coil and the frequency, it might sometimes also be modeled as a series LC resonator and then act like a narrow band pass filter.

you're almost there, like standing on the edge of a cliff, but you don't quite see the magnitude of the drop to the bottom.

instead of thinking in terms of when it cuts and clips....
Think of the exact moment when the upper and lower limits of the filter balance each other out, and perfectly cancel.

In the ideal situation, wherin the SRF of the coil is the same frequency as the SRF of the core:

The ferrite core acts are an energy storage for the electric field of the coil, and the coil acts as an electric field storage of the magnetic flux from the core. (Thermodynamically conservative, in accordance to Maxwell's Equations)
At this frequency, the core material can be viewed as a resistor in the circuit as a function of its permeability.
This can be replaced by a resistor of the same value for circuit analysis and Fourier transform.
Magnetic Reluctance (resistance to change in magnetic flux over time) has no effective value in the circuit at SRF.
This is the ideal state in which the ferrite core switches flux at its natural resonant time intervals.
It is a direct function of the properties of the core material with respect to its' physical dimensions.
It is defined mathematically, and in practice the manufacturers of the ferrite cores determine the SRF in testing as the point where magnetic reluctance is effectively (nil).
This is measured by the change in flux with respect to a drop in a secondary applied field.
The point at which the core material behaves like a series resistor to the applied field, is its SRF.

It is a self-defined situation, inductance, reluctance, resistance, impedance, electric flux, magnetic flux.
They are all proportional, from whatever perspective. change one, you effectively change the other.

What I am describing is not anything "magical". It is the most efficient way to use electricity and magnetic flux.
It might not be the most useful in most applications, but for something like the Joule Thief, TPU, and the LED lightbulbs that are replacing the incandescent,  these concepts can prove to be very useful.

Not by "generating" energy, but by wasting LESS of it.

Quote
The bottom line is it really does not matter.  In the real world of electronics nobody is too interested in coil self-resonance because there is nothing magical or special that you can do with it.  If they need a parallel or a series resonator, they will do it with discrete capacitors and inductors.  That way you have full control over what you are doing.

MileHigh

and you wonder why I use a term like "indoctrination"
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 09, 2016, 06:53:40 PM
so theres absolutely no reason for a computer engineer to concern themselves with concepts like:
angle of incidence
wavelength, with respect to the thickness of the semiconductor
and im sure it's just a coincidence that both Green's function and the Hemholtz equations coorespond precisely to Maxwell's equations and the Huygens principal....

we can throw away all these textbooks now, and tell the guys down in the Intel Lab to go home..

It all depends on the scope of the discussion and what you mean by "computer engineer."  I thought that we were talking about Joule Thieves and resonance.  The average computer engineer that designs circuit boards is not concerned with the textbook stuff that you are referring to.  In this day an age the PCB layout and characteristic impedance of the PCB traces are critical and that is a very important issue if that is something you were alluding to.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Bob Smith on February 09, 2016, 07:02:09 PM
Smoky
Thanks for your explanations around resonance. It is generally addressed in very limited terms. Your posts are very helpful.
Bob
BTW - guitar builder here - you have my attention.  ;)
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 09, 2016, 11:59:50 PM
Smoky2:

There is some truth in what you are saying and you are also spinning some tall tales that simply don't make sense.

Quote
this is far from a symmetrical balance between the SRF of the coil and the SRF of the core (ideal situation). What is being done here, is changing the capacitance of the coil, with respect to the parasitic capacitance of the core. This, in effect, brings the two waveforms into a resonant node. Meaning, both waveforms have a displacement in the same vector.

Symmetrical balance?  SRF of the core material?  In a standalone core, what would be resonating?  It's a stretch to try to make sense out of that.

Quote
Even the most adamant debater against the concept of resonance and constructive interference in electronics circuits, can easily demonstrate the frequency-based efficiency response of biasing the base resistor of a JT.
thus what I have stated above corresponds to experimental results across the board.
Regardless of your perspective of "what is occurring", it still occurs.

Here is the bottom line:  You hack a JT circuit and it starts oscillating.  You measure power in, power to the LED, the apparent brightness, and you look at the waveforms to figure out the mechanism for the oscillation.

There is nothing remarkable going on when you do that.  It's important to state this.  Nobody is saying that you can't do this and nobody "discourages" you from doing this.  You are trying to suggest that something "different" is taking place that "they don't want you to know about" when nothing could be further from the truth.  I will just repeat that when it comes to power draw vs. apparent brightness the chances of outperforming an optimized JT operating normally are very very low.

The hacked JT working as an oscillator will indeed have a "frequency based efficiency response" that can be measured and documented.  Big deal, that is something that would be expected to happen.

Quote
You keep reverting back to "standard use of components in electronic circuitry", when the very concept we are talking about is what Electronics as a whole teaches us NOT to do...

Nope, I am going to challenge you on that again.  Electronics as a whole does not teach us to NOT deal with oscillation and resonance.  I am sure you could find full textbooks on oscillator circuits.  Resonance in circuits is a highly studied affair, for both its advantages and for its disadvantages.  You are making a false pitch about electronics and then pitching yourself as the guy that is "teaching you what they don't want to teach you."  The reason I am challenging you is because "resonance" and "what they don't want you to know" are two themes that you see in countless free energy pitches by con men.  The "mystique" of resonance has to be demystified.

Quote
What I am describing is not anything "magical". It is the most efficient way to use electricity and magnetic flux.
It might not be the most useful in most applications, but for something like the Joule Thief, TPU, and the LED lightbulbs that are replacing the incandescent,  these concepts can prove to be very useful.

It's easy just to say that but the proof is in the real measurements made on a bench.  With a JT pulsing a LED with just the right frequency so you don't see the LED flickering, and just the right size of transformer so that the right amount of energy is stored per pulse, and the initial current flow lights the LED just the way you want, I think that would be hard to beat.

Quote
Not by "generating" energy, but by wasting LESS of it.

No kidding, design engineers have been struggling with this issue seemingly forever.  How long have laptops been around?  Since the late 80s?  Same thing for cell phones.  Engineers have been struggling to increase battery life and make sure that their extremely compact designs with essentially no air flow to remove heat don't spontaneously burn up.  You make it sound like you have "new insight" when in reality the issue of wasting less heat has been a front-and-center issue for design engineers for decades.

Quote
and you wonder why I use a term like "indoctrination"

No indoctrination at all.  I think if anything you are making misleading statements about Joule Thieves, resonance, and how engineers deal with resonance, oscillation, and power consumption.  The electronics industry is huge, and the academic world behind it is huge.  It's just a question of recognizing that reality for what it really is.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 10, 2016, 03:43:27 AM
Smoky2:
SRF of the core material?  In a standalone core, what would be resonating?

MileHigh

Yes, the core material has an SRF.
This information is available from the manufacturer of the core.

(didn't I already say that? I feel like i'm going in circles...)

perhaps, when you're not so high, you should go back through and read it again....
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 10, 2016, 04:19:56 AM
Yes, the core material has an SRF.
This information is available from the manufacturer of the core.

(didn't I already say that? I feel like i'm going in circles...)

perhaps, when you're not so high, you should go back through and read it again....

I am not high, but rather trying to make for a rational analysis of some of the things that you are saying so that you and the readers can get a better perspective.

I notice that you yourself can't tell me how a core self-resonates.  You say there was a link and perhaps there is something in the 32 page pdf that you linked to but I am not going to wade through it, I only skimmed through it.  I searched on self-resonance for core material and found next to nothing.  The best thing I came up with was a manufacturer's white paper on ferrite beads showing how they will crap out above a certain frequency and stop working properly.  That might be due to their self-resonant frequency.

http://incompliancemag.com/article/all-ferrite-beads-are-not-created-equal-understanding-the-importance-of-ferrite-bead-material-behavior/ (http://incompliancemag.com/article/all-ferrite-beads-are-not-created-equal-understanding-the-importance-of-ferrite-bead-material-behavior/)

Here is where I think you are tripping yourself up.  Any self resonance in a core material might be at a frequency of say 25 MHz.  That frequency is out of the realm of an operating JT and there is essentially no energy to speak of in those very high frequency ranges to affect the core.  In other words, the core you put in a JT transformer may have a SRF of 25 MHz.  Since there is no frequency content in the signals in the JT in the 25 MHz band then it all means nothing.

It's just like I said that the SRF of an inductor that forms the main coil in a JT normally turns it into a choke, and that frequency might be around 1 MHz.  With respect to a self-resonating ferrite core, for sure that is going to be highly damped because you are flipping magnetic domains at a very high frequency.  So a core does not "ring" at its SRF.

If you hack your JT and it starts to oscillate at say 50 kHz, then the SRF of the main coil of the JT might be 1 MHz and the SRF of the ferrite core might be 25 MHz.  These two things will not affect the hacked JT in an oscillation mode running at 50 kHz.

It's just like I said on another thread that you can't get get any power from the Earth's magnetic field.  Someone else posted and agreed with me but then pointed out if you want to be technical you could in theory pick up a micro-picowatt of power.  It's insignificant and you can simply state that you can't get any power from the Earth's magnetic field.

So if you get a hacked JT to oscillate at 50 kHz, that's all fine and dandy.  However, you can completely ignore the 1 MHz SRF of the coil and the 25 MHz SRF of the core.  Those two tings are totally insignificant and will not affect the operation of the hacked JT in any way whatsoever.

It's important to keep a proper perspective when it comes to electronics.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 10, 2016, 06:51:17 AM
I have a book by John D Lenk   Simplified design of switching power supplies

It has some data charts of some inductors from 10uh to 3.3mh and the SRF of 45mhz to 360khz respectively

Listing under must meet criteria....

Stray capacitance - The inductors self resonant freq must be 5 to 10 times the switching frequency


The book explains SRF briefly...

"All inductors have some distributed capacitance that combines with the inductance to form a resonant circuit. The frequency of this self resonance should be between 5 and 10 times the switching frequency(but not an exact multiple of the switching frequency!). As the inductance value is set by circuit requirements, the SRF is determined by distributed capacitance(a higher capacitance produces a lower SRF).

When SRF is low, the normal linear ramp of the inductor current is preceded by a sudden jump in current when the switching transistor turns on. This results in so called switching losses that lower the regulators overall efficiency. As a result, distributed capacitance should be kept at a minimum so that the SRF will be high and will not seriously affect the inductor current. Distributed capacitance can be lowered when the toroid is wound, either by overlapping the ends of the winding somewhat or by leaving a gap between winding ends(rather than ending the winding at 1 full layer)."

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 10, 2016, 07:09:49 AM
my only other choice is to keep saying the same thing, in completely different ways.
(looking at it from a different perspective, etc.)
until we merge at a point where both of our perspectives allow for successful communication.

So, here is the scenario, once again. using other parts of the equations, to describe the exact same scenario.

If you graph the frequency response of the inductor (coil w/ ferrite core)
Looking at 3 factors:
1) resistance
2) Impedance
3) Inductive Reactance (This includes both the electric induction and the magnetic reactance counterpart)

There is a point, just before inductance drops off, where the two lines on the graph cross.
 (resistance and inductive reactance)
On either side of this crossover point, the characteristics of the inductor completely change.

at frequencies when reactance is greater than resistance - the coil w/ core acts as an inductor.
at frequencies when reactance is less than resistance - the coil w/ core acts as a capacitor. It can be replaced by a capacitor of identical capacitance, and the circuit won't know the difference.

Exactly at the cross-over frequency, Resistance and Inductive Reactance are equivalent. As observable by their magnitude and location on the graph.

At this point, I must state bluntly, that the Impedance of the coil, and the magnetic reluctance-based equivalent of the core material are not the same numerical value. this could potentially be the topic for an entire other discussion, but please understand that there is an impedance mismatch between the electrically inductive coil and the magnetic response at either half of the waveform. This introduces a reflection of a portion of the signal, back to the source.
I could prove this to you, but the device we would be testing would have to be altered in such a way that it is no longer a "joule thief". The transistor and diode do not allow this to pass in the reverse direction. It is blocked through these components. But none of that really matters, because as we already know, the inductor has its' own internal capacitance.
So the reflected portion of the signal still translates, as if this capacitance were an actual capacitor placed in parallel to the transistor+battery portion of the circuit.


 This sounds confusing to think about, but that's just how electronic circuits behave. any portion of any circuit can be replace with its' theoretical equivalent circuit, and the circuit (usually) doesn't change at all.
 For this reason, we are able to perform transforms, use black-box analysis, and equivalent circuit theory.

The oscillating signal then encounters (or interferes with) this reflected waveform.
The effect can result in a + or - in amplitudes along the voltage or current scale, or both depending upon how the waves interfere. Phase-transitioning can increase or diminish this effect, as observed by the location of the crossover point on the above mentioned graph. When the phase is matched in such a way as to cause constructive interference, system amplitudes increase accordingly. When the phase of the interfering signals is matches in such a way as to cause destructive interference, system amplitudes decrease accordingly.
There are points in the phase transitioning, where the (biased) zero line voltage of the two signals cross in the same location. These signals do not interfere with each other, some examples of this are used in dual-phase or tri-phase applications, such as motors, generators, multi-coil solenoids, and JT's with multiple secondary coil(s) wound on the inductor.
(Multi-phase JT Transformers).
[This non-interfering state does not normally occur in the phase transition between the oscillating signal and the reflected feedback in a JT, This scenario is only presented for knowledge. There is almost always a definable interference between the inductor and its' reflection when used in the Armstrong Oscillator.]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Ferrite material, has certain physical mechanical properties, pertaining to the atomic constituents, and their applicable inductance/reluctance, as well as the physical dimensions of the ferrite core. (In the toroid case it is represented as a Diameter, Thickness, and Height).
The SRF of the ferrite core is defined as the resultant frequency derived through a wavelength equation, using these variables.

The physical vibration caused by an oscillating magnetic flux, causes the particles to align opposing the inducing field. When the flux changes, these particles align the other direction.
And there is an associated transitioning function in between, in relation to time.
This defines the "curve" of the magnetic waveform.

When the magnetic waveform induced through the core material and the SRF, as defined, approach equivalence, constructive interference creates, essentially, a standing wave of that wavelength. In an ideal situation (1-3ghz in a standard >1" off the shelf core), the amplitude of this magnetic flux is exponentially greater than that of the two waves. At low frequencies, the effect of this is negligible, and the ideal SRF operation of the inductor results in the same as an addition of the two waves, as a factor of energy over time and the self-defined "second".

There are other frequency-related nodes of resonance, with respect to the SRF of the core material. These are the frequencies generally chosen (actually slightly below this value on purpose) when an electronics engineer choose his inductor for the particular circuit.
why?
because with the fast switching ferrite cores we currently produce, the SRF of the core is considerably higher than the frequencies involved in our circuits.

So we use another frequency or wavelength that meets the 0-line of the magnetic waveform at specified intervals. this is generally a simple division or multiplication of the wavelengths involved. For instance, with a core SRF of 1Ghz, a frequency of 100Mhz would become self-resonant. We would use this core with a wound inductor, at a frequency lower or higher than 100 Mhz. But close to it.... 
We don't use the exact value, because if we did, the impedance mismatch could cause adverse affects in the circuit. But if we did,. what would happen?

Well,. the difference in impedance would act as a capacitance, and a resonant tank would form.
This causes the inductor to physically vibrate on the circuit board, and sometimes even make a ringing noise. Really? the core will make a ringing noise? - yes. This is generally unwanted, and circuits are designed to prevent this. In addition to the noise pollution (and associated losses), other adverse effects can occur at (or very near) the SRF of the core material, or a coherent resonant octave. These can include stray voltage potentials, often exceeding circuit maximums, as well as current spikes that causes heating and can overpower components before or after the inductor. The physical vibrations can also cause the solder connections to break that hold the inductor to the circuit board. In addition to these effects, differences in circuit impedance, combined with the resistive effects of parasitic capacitance, can generate a great deal of heat in the circuit (and associated losses). Making the whole of 'resonance' unappealing to most engineers.

But if we understand why these adverse effects occur, we can design the rest of our circuit so as to avoid these problems. This would mean a complete redesigning of all of our standard circuits.
And for what? I'm not sure that is really necessary. We don't have to (or even want to) use resonant circuits for everything we do. Many applications, simply cannot use this electrical feature in their application. To even try and force this sort of thing into the average circuitboard would undoubtedly destroy something. We are perfectly fine using a value less than the SRF of our components, and calculating the associated losses for doing so. Loss of a picowatt is less expensive than loss of a resistor!!
It is assumed, if not blatantly stated in electronics theory, that our components are not Ideal.
Most of this is a function of resistance / impedance and their circuit-based equivalents.
Here we examine the situation where the "resistance" portion of the circuit is purely in the magnetic domain:

A stand-alone ferrite core, with an applied external magnetic field, oscillating at the cores SRF,
can be set to vibrate on its supports like a high-frequency solenoid. By this we can define the moment of inertia as a function of the ferrite mass with respect to changes in the applied field.
By this we can see that this resonance can occur independent from any electronic circuit.
as the oscillating flux can be electrically or magnetically derived.

The amplitude of these oscillations is a function of the combined magnetic waveforms.
1)The applied flux, and the 2)field changes within the core material.
When you plot their magnitude and vector on a graph, the two resultant waveforms have a phase between them. This pertains to the (constant) frequency of the applied field, and the time derivative of the induced field in the core. (charging time)

At frequencies below the SRF of the ferrite material, the core reaches the maximum value of saturation (with respect to the applied field), faster than the flux is being changed by the applied field. Meaning, the field is not changing as fast as the material "could". When used at these lower than SRF frequencies, the core can reach full saturation, provided enough current.

At frequencies above the SRF (the actual crossover of response time is slightly above the SRF actual value) of the ferrite material, the flux is changing faster than the core can respond.
This means, that at those higher than SRF frequencies, the core does not saturate in time, before the flux changes back in the other direction.

exactly at the SRF of the core material, the standing wave can present itself. Oscillations of the wave are then a pure force derivative between the applied field and the mass and flux of the ferrite. The phase transition between these two waves, affects the total amplitude of the field generated by the flux in the core (or from another viewpoint, the magnitude of the standing wave). This is a direct result of constructive or destructive interference, as seen on the graph.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How does the SRF of the ferrite relate to the SRF of the coil?

The Coil's SRF is a function of the parasitic capacitance involved, and as such can be changed by a parallel capacitance, or changes in resistances (or changing the effective impedance) in the circuit. We can "tune" the coil's SRF. How and why this occurs is detailed in one of the links I posted above, I wouldn't do it justice by trying to reiterate that here.

When we tune (or phase shift) the SRF of the coil, such that the resonant nodes of both SRFs interfere constructively - the combination of maximum amplitudes of both electric and magnetic flux waveforms, presents itself as the most efficient manner in which to use the coil-wound inductor. In electronics theory, we call this the "Ideal" circuit.
We do not use components this way, because the rest of the circuit is not, or cannot be, does not be, resonant with the SRF of the other components in the circuit.
A modern day example of this is the use of ferrite beads in radio circuits. These are implemented to increase antanea resistance, to prevent current spikes from the receiver signal.
Now, changes in amplitude along a resonant radio frequency signal received by an antenna
 are not very large. these are tiny current spikes in this example, but when combined with an amplifier, these can translate into devastating power fluctuations. So, ferrite beads are used to cause Destructive Interference, destroying resonances within the circuit, allowing for a clean signal to be processed by the amplification circuit. "indoctrination" is not necessarily a bad thing. If you are designing circuits that are supposed to perform a specified function, it is easy to see why you DON'T WANT resonances to occur in your circuit. Radio interference can cause problems. You don't hear your song clearly, or a broadcast message is not properly received, or the signal comes through loud and clear then blows out your speaker, or burns up the transistors in the amp.

To sum this all up, most of our Components cannot be operated predictably at their SRF.
This is because (normally) the rest of the circuit is not designed to operate at that frequency.
To design a resonant circuit, Total Circuit Resonance must be observed at all times.
Anything other than, simply results in Destructive Interference in one or more parts of the circuit.
In the words of an old cowboy, you're just shooting yourself in the foot.












Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 10, 2016, 07:26:59 AM
I have a book by John D Lenk   Simplified design of switching power supplies

It has some data charts of some inductors from 10uh to 3.3mh and the SRF of 45mhz to 360khz respectively

Listing under must meet criteria....

Stray capacitance - The inductors self resonant freq must be 5 to 10 times the switching frequency


The book explains SRF briefly...

"All inductors have some distributed capacitance that combines with the inductance to form a resonant circuit. The frequency of this self resonance should be between 5 and 10 times the switching frequency(but not an exact multiple of the switching frequency!). As the inductance value is set by circuit requirements, the SRF is determined by distributed capacitance(a higher capacitance produces a lower SRF).

When SRF is low, the normal linear ramp of the inductor current is preceded by a sudden jump in current when the switching transistor turns on. This results in so called switching losses that lower the regulators overall efficiency. As a result, distributed capacitance should be kept at a minimum so that the SRF will be high and will not seriously affect the inductor current. Distributed capacitance can be lowered when the toroid is wound, either by overlapping the ends of the winding somewhat or by leaving a gap between winding ends(rather than ending the winding at 1 full layer)."

Mags

@ Mags

this is an excellent example.
Along side these spikes in current, is an associated drop in voltage.
We are trained to ignore these relationships when we examine certain phenomena.
But they hold true in every case, regardless of what we do with the electricity. run it through an inductor a capacitor a resistor a transformer a transistor and back to your meters and these factors always remain proportional.
Then we are given workable solutions that dodge resonant frequencies. Why?
because there is a crossover point at the SRF.
In one state (lagging) the spike is along the current domain.
In the other (leading) the spike occurs in voltage.
Now consider a "mostly dead" battery, and the available current from its' depleted output.
And the inverse situation, where current does not spike, but voltage does.
current incurs an associated drop from the source.
This is a function of the SRF of the coil vs the SRF of the ferrite.
If the two were perfectly balanced, there would not be a spike in current, nor a spike in voltage.
But rather, both amplitudes would peak at their maximum value, one slightly out of phase with the other. This cannot generally occur, because of non resonant parameters in the rest of the circuit.


Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 10, 2016, 08:09:08 AM
Hey Smoky

So what was described in the power supply book only touched on the coils SRF, not the cores SRF.

So if we want to bring these 2 together, can we lower the core SRF or use other materials that have a lower core SRF?  Or is it that we have to make the coil with an SRF of the core, or say an SRF that is a lower multiple of the core freq.

Thanks for all the knowledge on this stuff.  You seem to know it all pretty deep.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 10, 2016, 09:14:27 AM
Hey Smoky

So what was described in the power supply book only touched on the coils SRF, not the cores SRF.

So if we want to bring these 2 together, can we lower the core SRF or use other materials that have a lower core SRF?  Or is it that we have to make the coil with an SRF of the core, or say an SRF that is a lower multiple of the core freq.

Thanks for all the knowledge on this stuff.  You seem to know it all pretty deep.

Mags

Lowering the SRF of the core material is not possible. Ferrites that have a lower SRF, like raw iron or magnetite, also have a very high hysteresis. The materials we use in modern inductors is a ceramic embedded with very fine particles, allowing for a more pure and clean alignment of the magnetic domains. Naturally, the smaller the particles used, the closer we get to a pure atomic induction response, thus the SRF of the material approaches the self resonance of the atoms. We aren't quite there yet, but our technology is getting pretty close, and with nanotech we expect to be able to create ferrites with even higher SRF frequencies.
If you can imagine the future of a microwave oven using only a toroid and a simple oscillating circuit.

The problem with building a coil that has an SRF as high as the ferrite core
comes in two forms: one being the very low capacitance value required, we would almost need a superconductor (or at the very least, some gold coils!!)
The other being the switching rate of the transistor. Transistors of this nature can be very expensive and hard to find. Generally a "JT" uses a transistor with a relatively low range of freqs. when compared to the SRF of the core material.

So, to answer your question (which it sounds like you already have on your own)-
The latter of the 3 options, is what we choose in practice. We already have the tools to make this possible, with minimal alterations to the circuit.



Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 10, 2016, 09:22:53 AM
in the simplest form, this can be achieved with a variac or high-precision variable resistor,
some short-range trim pots will do the trick. This goes in place of the base resistor in the JT circuit.

With the normal JT set-up, the SRF of the coil will drift over time. I believe this is due to the drop in voltage from the source battery, but I have not invested a serious bit of time into examining this situation.
My brother reports the drift taking place over a 3-4 month time period with some of his simpler JT "nightlights". The light dims and they need to be "re-tuned", they then return to normal operation, until some time when the SRF drifts again to an effective amount.
He has shown this to me on the scopes, so there is no doubt that the drift occurs.
I only speculate that it is from the battery voltage, because we know this to drop over time.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 10, 2016, 03:12:26 PM
Smoky2:

The information in Magluvin's book is pertinent and says it all.  You stay away from the SRF of the coils in a switching power supply because at the SRF the coils crap out and don't function as coils anymore.  You even stay away from having a harmonic of your excitation frequency line up with the SRF of the coils.  The excitation is a pulse train with sharp edges so naturally the signal is very high in harmonics.

A coil at it's SRF is either dead and blocks AC if you model it as a parallel resonant tank or it's dead and offers no resistance to AC if you model it as a series LC tank.  In either case the inductance is nowhere to be found.  Above the SRF it just looks like a capacitor.

Why should a coil at its SRF enhance the performance of a Joule Thief when it is effectively dead and not functioning properly?  You are just playing the resonance fetish game.

Your discussion of reflections and stuff like that only occur at super high frequencies.  You would worry about that when you design a motherboard for a PC with a 4 GHz clock speed and perhaps a 1 GHz memory bus clock, but not for a Joule Thief.

My gut instincts are telling me that your brother is playing with hacked Joule Thieves that are running as oscillators, but they are not running at the SRF of the main coil that forms the JT transformer.  I will repeat to you again in plain English, the main power coil craps out at the SRF and the inductance disappears.  So my feeling is that you are leading yourselves down a garden path.  If you really wanted to be sure you could inject a signal into the coil and look for the SRF.

In broad general terms, the "buzz" about a coil operating at its SRF on the free energy forums is a bunch of BS.  You are effectively turning the coil into a piece of wire or an open circuit.  There is nothing exciting about that.  There is no "secret sauce" related to hacking a JT and turning it into an oscillator and running it at the SRF of the main coil.  There is a very decent chance that the oscillation would in fact die at the SRF because the main coil of the JT becomes inert at the SRF frequency.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 10, 2016, 05:08:37 PM
Smoky2:

A coil at it's SRF is either dead and blocks AC if you model it as a parallel resonant tank or it's dead and offers no resistance to AC if you model it as a series LC tank.  In either case the inductance is nowhere to be found.  Above the SRF it just looks like a capacitor.

Why should a coil at its SRF enhance the performance of a Joule Thief when it is effectively dead and not functioning properly? 


If you really wanted to be sure you could inject a signal into the coil and look for the SRF.

In broad general terms, the "buzz" about a coil operating at its SRF on the free energy forums is a bunch of BS.  You are effectively turning the coil into a piece of wire or an open circuit.  There is nothing exciting about that.  There is no "secret sauce" related to hacking a JT and turning it into an oscillator and running it at the SRF of the main coil.  There is a very decent chance that the oscillation would in fact die at the SRF because the main coil of the JT becomes inert at the SRF frequency.

MileHigh

The first two points go hand in hand. We have had scopes all over this thing, across the transistor, across the diode, across the coil, across the base resistor, even observed the ends of the battery at times.
When all other factors of the system remain the same, coil, core, voltage, transistor, led.
and all you adjust is the resistance across the base - you are changing the injected feedback signal, and how it applies to the next iteration of the cycle. This signal is not present at points other than a resonant node. It is inversely canceled out by its counterpart in the circuit. no reflection, no collapse of the parasitic capacitance at the peak.

To the latter issue, I agree, most of what people talk about in these regards is total b.s.
what I am doing here is presenting the facts along with the electrical theory, and experiments to get rid of all the mysticism and "magic" ideas floating around.
When this is all out in the open, where people can understand and experiment with this, then concepts like "secret sauce" need no longer apply.
You can't look at a Resonant circuit, in terms of how a component at SRF would perform in a non-resonant circuit.
You have to look at the whole picture.

The coil will always retain a positive value for inductance, because of the 3rd parasitic relationship of the circuit at SRF.
The resistance of the circuit has a parasitic inductance, and the ferrite will still magnetically charge.
That is the whole point of this exercise

- the "indoctrination" is that instinctive feeling you get when you head down this road, and makes you want to stay away from the SRF. It is perfectly normal after years of accredited education. We all go through it......


Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 10, 2016, 06:52:23 PM
Smoky2:

The information in Magluvin's book is pertinent and says it all.  You stay away from the SRF of the coils in a switching power supply because at the SRF the coils crap out and don't function as coils anymore.  You even stay away from having a harmonic of your excitation frequency line up with the SRF of the coils.  The excitation is a pulse train with sharp edges so naturally the signal is very high in harmonics.

A coil at it's SRF is either dead and blocks AC if you model it as a parallel resonant tank or it's dead and offers no resistance to AC if you model it as a series LC tank.  In either case the inductance is nowhere to be found.  Above the SRF it just looks like a capacitor.



MileHigh

I posted that as an example of it is said that we shouldnt partake in srf functions when designing a power supply. I dont believe it is saying that the inductor is dead.

What Im seeing it says is that the rise in current if the inductor when the transistor turns on(in a typical regulator design) is too quick for the driver design. What  that tells me is that the on time is too long in this case.  So what Im looking at is how to design the circuit to accommodate that higher freq of operation.

As with the cores SRF, what Im thinking is that if we design the coils SRF to match a lower multiple of the cores SRF, there may be some advantages as Smoky says. Will have to be tested.

Havnt built a JT yet. But from what Smoky says about the variable resistor on the base, it must be adjusting the on time and getting the SRF mode to ring.

I find it to be interesting stuff. ;D


Back when the Russian guys were playing with tv flyback transformers, I believe they were talking about the cores SRF function in what they were doing. What did they call it, NMR? But, there were claims of dangerous radiations from the cores running at core SRF freq.  I would like to avoid that if possible.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 11, 2016, 03:18:10 AM
Well at least differing opinions were aired and that's always a good thing.  Perhaps there are some people building Joule Thieves that will do their own investigations and also get inspiration from the comments in this thread.

Let's assume that your design goal is a fairly bright LED with no flickering (to the human eye) with minimum power draw from the battery.  There can be other design goals, the one I am suggesting would seem to be the most logical one for me.

It brings up the issue of apparent brightness.  I was told once that it is a zero sum game.  A very bright flashing LED with a short duty cycle will have the same apparent brightness as a medium bright LED with a longer duty cycle such that the power draw from the battery is approximately the same in both cases.  Is that really true?  I don't know.

Nonetheless, it suggests there is a "Goldilox" core size and an associated Goldilox Joule Thief transformer configuration to give you a "sweet train of pulses" to keep the LED lit with minimum battery draw.

I doubt anybody would go that far but if we end up fighting WW IV with rocks then who knows?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 11, 2016, 05:09:44 AM
So. Since this is a JT thread, might as well start there and test these things. A JT is the simplest circuit to play with.

Any suggestions as to what works best making one of these? Has anyone wound their transformers bifi? I figure more capacitance, lower freq SRF.

I have lots and lots of parts.  100mhz scope(200 if I do the hack for the hantek 5000 series.)   Near dead batteries of all sorts.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 11, 2016, 07:06:51 AM
Went to beginning of the thread and getting stuff together.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: allcanadian on February 11, 2016, 07:15:02 AM
It's nice to see the JT threads are still active and I remember the good old days when it was first introduced here. Not long after a man named Dr.Stiffler appeared for a while with a variant and I found one of his oscillators I bought under my bench collecting dust only a few weeks ago. It was basically a glorified low power high frequency JT in my estimation from the testing I did. The work I posted closely related to Stifflers designs was then borrowed and morphed into the infamous Slayer circuit. Strange how I had numerous slayer circuits built and tested at least a year before he supposedly "invented" them, lol, such is life. Even more curious is that the odd article still pops up by some EE or electronics expert claiming they don't really understand it and that it is a marvel of engineering.


A few tips, early on I found the base or gate resistance dissipates as much energy as the load in some cases. LED's on the base lit almost as bright as the supposed load so a series cap should be used. I transitioned to open gate mosfet switching with a bare wire on the gate not attached to anything or the gate wire wrapped around the insulation of a HV secondary. This design morphed into self-oscillating(self-switching) SS HV induction coils not unlike a Rhumkorff or Tesla coil. It's odd that so many consider parasitic capacitance, a ridiculous term, as a problem when in many cases it is the best solution if not the only one.


How do you switch an external electronic circuit when the primary circuit your trying to synchronize to is blowing off 12" arcs in every direction, inducing ridiculous voltages in all nearby open conductors?... the answer is you can't to my knowledge. I had random nuts and bolts and wires scattered on the bench arcing over up to 1" apart like a christmas tree three feet away from my quite unique oscillator. I wouldn't put any oscilloscope within 20 feet of that infernal machine and it made my Tesla coil look like a fart in a windstorm. Good times back then, exciting times and there was a lot of crazy shit going on, a lot of creativity and as always a lot of wild ass speculation.


In any case...play safe.


AC





Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: ramset on February 11, 2016, 08:46:10 AM
Mags
we know things come apart at resonance ,we know plain heat will do like wise ,as well as the hammer shown here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC6I8iPiHT8

and we know energy is released...

The Bug above hunts with Photons which he Knocks out of orbit ,he messes with the wheel work of nature so he can get a meal.

as Smoky has said, it would seem the education process has purposely kept different fields of science separated
by "specialty" or Box.

when it would seem that there is much to be learned By mixing it up ,and getting into a bit of Chaos outside the Box.

NMR,NAR ,LENR or something else ??

Rossi ,Alexander Parkhomov ,Constantine Balakirian, Steven Marks...Stanley Meyer  ...

its all the rage these days !

and it is our destiny.



Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 11, 2016, 12:48:05 PM
Went to beginning of the thread and getting stuff together.

Mags

Set up a bifilar coil with a steel laminated core,where the core is two separate halves -1 half will see the flow of charge into the magnetic center,and the other half will see the flow of charge out from the magnetic center. Set up a simple self oscillating circuit,and run the LED off the two core halves,where you two core halves act like capacitor plates,and are charged every pulse. this way you can bring your frequency up to a resonant state,where the amplitude is at maximum,and power draw at a minimum.

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 11, 2016, 07:32:42 PM
Theres a concept called negative capacitance. this is where the negative portion of the magnetic waveform is considered in the impedance equation. Basically considered as Reactance, in the electronics portion of the circuit.
Impedance = resistance + reactance(sqrt[-1])

Now,. we can't actually built a negative capacitor, (or can we?)
but mathematically, we can just throw the (-) out since we square it later in subsequent equations.
and replace the whole resonant mess with a capacitor of positive value.

This is the standard electronics model. Text books do not generally take this any further.
When we examine Inductance as being a proportional factor of Impedance and angular frequency
we essentially look at only the positive value of reactance.

we literally take the absolute value of this number, and apply it to already known electronics equations.

But negative capacitance can be calculated AND measured!!!  We know it exists,. but we assume it does not matter.
Or are (told) it does not matter....   Then we are shown other examples of when it actually matters.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

L = X / w ; where L is inductance, X is reactance, and w is 2(pi)f

or we can take the "effective Q" = |X|/R ; <<<---- see, we can use this instead. and we don't have any pesky 0's in the division......

 We are trained this way from day 1.
This is what is, this is what is not, this is how we use it.
these are the things that are not what we told you at first,
and this is how to get rid of these "problems".

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 11, 2016, 09:46:01 PM
Here is a clip that shows the Joule Thief schematic and gives a very good verbal description of how a Joule Thief works from start to finish.  It describes the Joule Thief as a switching device with positive feedback, which is exactly what I have been saying.  The word "resonance" is never stated.  The description is not too technical but it is verbose and complete and anyone that has a basic knowledge of electronics should be able to follow it and understand it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg)

Now, that's in contrast to the previous two postings in this thread.  Sorry, but they are a bunch of mumbo-jumbo talk and both don't make any sense.  I know that it's not politically correct abound here to say this but it is what it is.

If you want to try to convince myself and others that you are making a valid case and supposedly making sense, then use the clip above as a standard that you can try to meet.  Fake pseudo electronics talk with nonsensical terms and the old "they don't want you to know" boogeyman talk just won't cut it.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 11, 2016, 10:56:40 PM
Here is a clip that shows the Joule Thief schematic and gives a very good verbal description of how a Joule Thief works from start to finish.  It describes the Joule Thief as a switching device with positive feedback, which is exactly what I have been saying.  The word "resonance" is never stated.  The description is not too technical but it is verbose and complete and anyone that has a basic knowledge of electronics should be able to follow it and understand it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg)

Now, that's in contrast to the previous two postings in this thread.  Sorry, but they are a bunch of mumbo-jumbo talk and both don't make any sense.  I know that it's not politically correct abound here to say this but it is what it is.

If you want to try to convince myself and others that you are making a valid case and supposedly making sense, then use the clip above as a standard that you can try to meet.  Fake pseudo electronics talk with nonsensical terms and the old "they don't want you to know" boogeyman talk just won't cut it.

This is the minimalist version of the circuit, that uses no consideration to system losses.
Yes it works, so does the filament lightbulb.

stating that it works and that we don't need to know any more than that to turn the lights on, is all fine in dandy.

But compare an old style filament bulb to a newer LED bulb of the same luminescence.
and compare their energy consumption

Now, do the same with the Joule thief.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 11, 2016, 11:16:03 PM
Set up a bifilar coil with a steel laminated core,where the core is two separate halves -1 half will see the flow of charge into the magnetic center,and the other half will see the flow of charge out from the magnetic center. Set up a simple self oscillating circuit,and run the LED off the two core halves,where you two core halves act like capacitor plates,and are charged every pulse. this way you can bring your frequency up to a resonant state,where the amplitude is at maximum,and power draw at a minimum.

Brad

Can you make a diagram of the cores and where the windings are on the cores. Sort of a magnetically induced capacitor?

Mags

Thanks
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 12, 2016, 12:27:16 AM
Can you make a diagram of the cores and where the windings are on the cores. Sort of a magnetically induced capacitor?

Mags

Thanks

Exactly
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 12, 2016, 12:50:17 AM
Can you make a diagram of the cores and where the windings are on the cores. Sort of a magnetically induced capacitor?

Mags

Thanks

Here is an earlier video showing the charge build up on the laminated core. This clearly shows the capacitor effect between the winding's,and the core it self. It also show's that some of the consumed current is due to this core charge being forcefully discharged during each pulse. By allowing this charge to be reduced by way of driving the LED,we can see less current is drawn by the circuit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJB_cnx9Rx8


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 12, 2016, 02:51:36 AM
Thanks Brad. Thats pretty cool. So if it was a long core without the separation there isnt any current through the core? Seems odd.  But Ill take your word for it. ;)

I wonder if you interleaved the laminations(insulated) some near the center to increase surface area if there might be helpful to generate more charge.

In this circuit below from a pdf on this thread, to me there seems to be a problem. Not that the circuit doesnt work. But the led is across the transistor in the same direction.  I understand that the batt doesnt have enough voltage to conduct the led. But when the transistor turns off, the inductors collapse current flows through the led AND the battery, thus further discharging the battery more besides the transisitor switching. So wouldnt it be better to put the led across the transformer winding where the batt isnt being drained during the led discharge also?

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 12, 2016, 03:29:35 AM
Mags, you can also check out the original JT topic where there are hundreds of schematics and design variants that we tested.  Many, many folks posted a lot of neat devices over there.  It is really fun to play with the variables and try different circuits.  It really all depends on what you want to do.  Do you want a lot of light?  Or, do you want some light that lasts a very, very long time?  Or, do you want to try to get as much of both conditions as possible?

This is what we played with back then and, we all learned a lot about electronics from working with these circuits.  Check TK's video collection as he has some great circuits he made on his youtube channel.  I have a lot of JT circuit videos but, TK actually explains what is happening and why in his vids.  Mine are more like..."Holy crap, this lights up!  Wow!!"

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 12, 2016, 04:15:40 AM
Smoky2:

Quote
This is the minimalist version of the circuit, that uses no consideration to system losses.

I am not sure what you mean by the "system losses" because we are back to the issue of the informational scope of the clip that I posted.  The clip aims to simply explain how a Joule Thief works and no more than that.

"Minimalist version of the circuit" is another issue.  When is a circuit a Joule Thief or not?  I think that there is a simple answer to that one.  If the circuit can power a LED with a battery whose output voltage is lower than the normal drive voltage for the LED, and the LED is driven using the technique of a discharging inductor acting as a current source, then you have a Joule Thief.  If the circuit does not meet these two conditions then it is not a Joule Thief.

Obviously I can't comment on the various oscillator circuits that you have made reference to, but I suspect that many of them may not in fact be Joule Thief circuits as per the two criteria that I outline above.

Quote
stating that it works and that we don't need to know any more than that to turn the lights on, is all fine in dandy.

That's a straw man argument, I never said that.

Quote
But compare an old style filament bulb to a newer LED bulb of the same luminescence.
and compare their energy consumption

Now, do the same with the Joule thief.

My response to this may surprise you and a lot of people, but not if they were paying attention to the beginning of this discussion.

Nobody is going to argue about an incandescent light bulb compared to an LED light bulb.

You are implying that a Joule Thief gives you even better efficiency than an LED light bulb.  For purposes of a fair discussion let's put aside the "Thief" part of the Joule Thief that can extract energy from nearly dead batteries.  In other words, let's just look at lumens per watt of supplied power.

A lot of the efficiency is due to the fact that the LED in a Joule Thief is flashing and taking advantage of the persistence of human vision.  To accomplish this the Joule Thief has the overhead associated with the lossy energizing of the main coil and the associated overhead for the timing circuit.

So what if we just compare a flashing LED using a very efficient timing and switching circuit and a Joule Thief?

The answer is that a flashing LED light will beat a Joule Thief light hands down.  Now the Joule Thief doesn't seem so glamorous, does it?

I am going to take a guess here:  I am willing to bet you that LED lights don't flash to save power.  There are several reasons for this.  The first reason is that you are saving so much power anyway compared to incandescent bulbs that it is not an issue.  The second reason is that you simplify the design and save costs and have a more reliable light.  The third reason is just pure speculation:  If you are under lights for a long time each day, you are better off if they don't flash because even though you can't perceive the flashing, you might be able to perceive it subconsciously and some people might be prone to getting headaches just like some people don't like flashing fluorescent lights.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 12, 2016, 05:31:42 AM
Thanks Brad. Thats pretty cool. So if it was a long core without the separation there isnt any current through the core? Seems odd.  But Ill take your word for it. ;)

I wonder if you interleaved the laminations(insulated) some near the center to increase surface area if there might be helpful to generate more charge.

In this circuit below from a pdf on this thread, to me there seems to be a problem. Not that the circuit doesnt work. But the led is across the transistor in the same direction.  I understand that the batt doesnt have enough voltage to conduct the led. But when the transistor turns off, the inductors collapse current flows through the led AND the battery, thus further discharging the battery more besides the transisitor switching. So wouldnt it be better to put the led across the transformer winding where the batt isnt being drained during the led discharge also?

Mags

Well personally,i would put the LED across the emitter and core-providing the core is conductive. This way you reduce the power consumption of the device,due to the removal  of the charge build up in the core.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 12, 2016, 10:12:26 AM
Smoky2:

I am not sure what you mean by the "system losses"

in general I am referencing resistive and inductive/reactive losses in the USE of the JT.
compared to the PROPER USE of the Armstrong Oscillator.

or in the comparative example, the resistive and inductive/reactive losses in the use of a filament
compared to the use of an LED.

I never anywhere stated that a JT circuit was better or more efficient than a household LED.
that is topic for another discussion, wherein I use the parts already inside the LED lightbulb to form a JT circuit,
throw away the extra misc. components found inside, and power the LED with a mostly dead battery,
and compare that to an unaltered LED powered by the Mains.

Quote
"Minimalist version of the circuit" is another issue.  When is a circuit a Joule Thief or not?  I think that there is a simple answer to that one.  If the circuit can power a LED with a battery whose output voltage is lower than the normal drive voltage for the LED, and the LED is driven using the technique of a discharging inductor acting as a current source, then you have a Joule Thief.  If the circuit does not meet these two conditions then it is not a Joule Thief.


hmm, there are a lot of different devices referred to as a "joule thief". But at some basic level, we have to agree that there are certain aspects, features, and components of the circuit, that define is as the 'fad' known as a JT.
I am not sure if I would use the same criteria you offer above. Mine would be more like:

1) transformer (or suitable equivalent switching device)
2) inductor
3) low voltage power source
4) optional load

the LED is optional, and serves only as an indicator that the circuit is in operation.
The fact, or should I say phenomena, that people are amazed by, and use the LED as a source of light, is quite frankly irrelevant to what is or is not a joule thief.

The entire argument of it using the "last bit of current in a battery" is complete hogwash,
you can run these off nearly any voltage potential, from any source.
 from the earth itself, broadcast radio signals, to the voltage built up in the metal frame of your computer desk....

The things TK and Bill did, without a standard "battery" are worth going back and looking at.

What is a Joule Thief?

a Joule Thief is: An Armstrong Oscillator

Most of the instructables, and do-it-yourself JT webpages use a very simplified (minimalist) version of the oscillator,
and do so with completely mismatched components.
No thought was given to most of their designs other than
the switching range of the transformer vs the inductor, and the cut-on voltage of the transistor and diode.
Furthermore, taking an equivalent circuit replacement works for digital electronics. We do it all the time.
But taking an analog circuit, and forcing it to be digital, you lose certain qualities of the signal.
go talk to an old guitar player about digital equipment vs their older counterparts, and hear what he has to say.

there is no JT "standard" for the transistor, the resistor, the ferrite, or the coil.
Some here have put forth a considerable effort to standardize the components, but this was an aftermarket thought.
Not the definition of the device.

What I am trying to do is teach others how it was designed to be used in the most efficient manner.


Quote
Obviously I can't comment on the various oscillator circuits that you have made reference to, but I suspect that many of them may not in fact be Joule Thief circuits as per the two criteria that I outline above.

again, I'm not sure I can agree with your observational criteria.



Quote

A lot of the efficiency is due to the fact that the LED in a Joule Thief is flashing and taking advantage of the persistence of human vision.  To accomplish this the Joule Thief has the overhead associated with the lossy energizing of the main coil and the associated overhead for the timing circuit.

MileHigh

Most of what I have been talking about is not necessarily comparing the Joule Thief to another circuit.
But comparing the Joule Thief to itself, under different operating conditions.
What those operating conditions are, and how to use them to build the best possible JT circuit.

Efficiency of the JT vs other devices can only be done analyzing the duty cycle of the power across the transistor.
This is generally done outside the linear mode of the transistor, and at frequencies far from a resonant node.
Comparison in this manner shows that the Joule Thief is a rather inefficient circuit. We can and have done better.

a JT in resonance, sometimes cannot even be measured.
Equipment can get destroyed, and capacitors explode, stray voltage spikes in unexpected parts of the circuit.
This is because people don't pay attention to the impedance of their oscilloscope,
or that a diode can create a return current path, which is preferred by the current when resistance through the coil peaks.
DMMs are usually the first to go, people think since they run it through a diode that its no longer "AC"......

There is a whole range of mathematics and rules that must be adhered to when it comes to resonant circuits.
these have been around for 200 years, people mainly ignore that which we do not use.
I don't get too deep into these concepts here, because most of them apply to much larger resonant circuits, than a simple JT. - but they CAN and sometimes DO apply, when you are taking measurements of the JT circuit in resonance.

Also note, that a resonating inductor produces large amounts of interference to the surroundings.
If not properly shielded, this can disturb instruments and equipment nearby.
Our circuits are not designed to operate in this manner, it is a whole other branch of technology that never went anywhere. We went with the predictable, more consistent route.
It is now our time to experiment with this.

As it pertains to "flashing" LEDs::

persistence of human vision varies from person to person. One human can see very fast flashes, where another human cannot perceive them. There is an "average", based on a number of test samples, but generally any testing done to the JT is done using an assessment of the actual circuit, not some arbitrary visual aspect.
Also, there are frequencies your brain cannot process. points where the LED will appear to dim to you, but in fact it is producing a greater amount of "light" than a lower frequency you were able to see.

We know by the diode data sheet, how much "light" is produced with a given voltage/current put through the diode, and we also know the decay function or Cut-off time, that this "light" is dissipated over after the pulse cuts off.
What we "see" from the LED does not matter.
I think what you will find, is that in most set-ups, the LED itself never fully turns "off".
Therefore, the persistence of human vision doesn't even come into play.

The LED itself doesn't even matter. more accurate testing can be done using other components as a load.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 12, 2016, 10:24:11 AM
I am trying to bring everyone up to speed on this, because once we all get it, we can go to the next level.

If people are still getting hung up on the very basics, we must communicate the information more effectively.

Simply put, once the JT is operating at a resonant frequency, we can remove the LED/load completely,
and couple to it, using the inductor as a transformer. By winding a secondary onto the ferrite.

With an appropriate capacitance, this secondary coil can be set resonate with the frequency of the rest of the circuit, and used to power a load.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Bob Smith on February 12, 2016, 07:10:54 PM
Smoky2
Thanks for the helpful explanations. I think the direction with a secondary is where Jeanna was going some years back. She had some YT videos using multiple secondaries - very interesting stuff.  IST had a slightly different approach, and often used a kind of caduceus winding for his multiple secondaries. 
Looking forward to a more purposeful kind of build that would enable us to produce the resonant effect and draw from it.
Bob
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 12, 2016, 10:54:31 PM
Someone said here earlier that we cant take, as in load, from a parallel rc?  Below is a pic and the code for the circuit in the pic for Falstads Circuit sim.

When you hold the switch on and charge the parallel rc then release the switch, the rc goes through a near full cycle then dumps back into the source through the diode across the switch. So the rc goes into full swing in the forward direction of the inductor, as we know, charges up the cap, then reverses direction and the inductor at near full bore dumps into the source.

I chose to use the 10uf cap so there is time to see the circuit work as in visual current flow. The cap can be small where the action happens 'almost' instantaneously, and reducing the amount of current when the switch goes on and dumps into the cap also, as seen as a big current spike when the cap is 10uf or just larger than a tiny cap. Not too tiny of a cap. There needs to be a short time period for the switch to become fully opened before the collapse current develops enough voltage to jump the gradually opening gap.

So this circuit can be used in a simple pulse motor to direct the coils field collapse currents back to the source, and also saves the reed switch from arcing when released because the inductors forward current has a place to go other than the switch gap when opening.


$ 1 5.0E-6 10.20027730826997 50 5.0 43
s 640 224 704 224 0 1 true
l 640 224 640 496 0 1.0 -1.6114345942577624E-6
v 704 496 704 224 0 0 40.0 20.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
r 640 496 704 496 0 1.0
w 640 176 640 224 0
w 704 176 704 224 0
d 640 176 704 176 1 0.805904783
w 640 496 576 496 0
w 640 224 576 224 0
c 576 224 576 496 0 1.0E-5 8.604227041654291E-4
o 1 64 0 35 0.009765625 9.765625E-5 0 -1



Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 12, 2016, 11:02:44 PM
I am trying to bring everyone up to speed on this, because once we all get it, we can go to the next level.

If people are still getting hung up on the very basics, we must communicate the information more effectively.

Simply put, once the JT is operating at a resonant frequency, we can remove the LED/load completely,
and couple to it, using the inductor as a transformer. By winding a secondary onto the ferrite.

With an appropriate capacitance, this secondary coil can be set resonate with the frequency of the rest of the circuit, and used to power a load.

Hey Smoky

Does making the secondary resonant with the primary have to be load specific on the secondary? Like does the value of the load affect the resonant freq of the secondary? Does the secondary have to be tuned to a specific load?

Thanks

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 13, 2016, 01:28:22 AM
Smoky2:

Quote
the LED is optional, and serves only as an indicator that the circuit is in operation.
The fact, or should I say phenomena, that people are amazed by, and use the LED as a source of light, is quite frankly irrelevant to what is or is not a joule thief.

Okay, fair enough.  So let's strip it down to the bare bones then.  All that you are left with is energizing an inductor and then discharging that inductor into some kind of load.  The inductor acts like a current source when it discharges and the majority of people on this forum don't understand that.  And if you want you can take advantage of that fact and create a small cottage industry.   You can give it the fake label of "radiant energy" and sell DVDs all about it but never actually explaining what is going on to your target audience.

There is nothing "exciting" about a discharging inductor to an informed electronics hobbyist, you may as well be watching paint dry.

Quote
The entire argument of it using the "last bit of current in a battery" is complete hogwash,
you can run these off nearly any voltage potential, from any source.
 from the earth itself, broadcast radio signals, to the voltage built up in the metal frame of your computer desk....

It's a huge stretch to claim you can run one off of "the earth itself, broadcast radio signals, to the voltage built up in the metal frame of your computer desk.."  You need to keep this discussion rooted in some measure of reasonableness and reality.  You are never in a million years going to run a Joule Thief on the voltage built up in the metal frame of a computer desk.

Quote
What is a Joule Thief?

a Joule Thief is: An Armstrong Oscillator

No, an Armstrong Oscillator is based on an LC resonant tank and a Joule Thief is not in any way, shape, or form based on an LC resonant tank.

If you disagree then I already suggested that anyone is welcome to present evidence that is comparable to the clip that I linked to that describes the operation of a Joule Thief with a full and complete description of the entire switching cycle.

Quote
But taking an analog circuit, and forcing it to be digital, you lose certain qualities of the signal.

I am not a fan of vague and ephemeral language when it comes to electronic circuits. The quote above is meaningless.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 13, 2016, 01:51:10 AM
Smoky2:

Quote
Most of what I have been talking about is not necessarily comparing the Joule Thief to another circuit.
But comparing the Joule Thief to itself, under different operating conditions.
What those operating conditions are, and how to use them to build the best possible JT circuit.

That I can wholeheartedly agree with and you also made earlier references with respect to trying different component values.  That would be a great learning exercise for many but I fear that it is above the knowledge and skill set of the average electronics experimenter on the free energy forums.

Again, stripping it down to its bare bones:  You can make a Joule Thief circuit (or say a 555 based circuit) that adjusts the parameters related to a discharging inductor:  the size of the inductor, the initial current and energy in the pulse, the pulse repetition rate, and how that custom designed train of inductive pulse discharges will go into your chosen load.  That's all there is when you strip it down to the bare essentials.  You notice I am restricting my discussion to a "normal" Joule Thief.

Quote
a JT in resonance, sometimes cannot even be measured.
Equipment can get destroyed, and capacitors explode, stray voltage spikes in unexpected parts of the circuit.
This is because people don't pay attention to the impedance of their oscilloscope,
or that a diode can create a return current path, which is preferred by the current when resistance through the coil peaks.
DMMs are usually the first to go, people think since they run it through a diode that its no longer "AC"......

It all sounds fine and dandy and clearly you have a following here.  But I have yet to see what I would call a Joule Thief in "resonance" and if you can't demonstrate that or link to tangible proof that what you are alleging is real, for right now I have to consider it to be pie-in-the-sky.  Again, I am not saying that you cannot have oscillator circuits that light LEDs or drive loads, but I would have to be convinced that there are "Joule Thieves in resonance."

Quote
Our circuits are not designed to operate in this manner, it is a whole other branch of technology that never went anywhere. We went with the predictable, more consistent route.
It is now our time to experiment with this.

It all sounds very cool and very cutting edge to some people around here, but not to me.  I will just repeat that electronics is very well understood and what you are alleging about some kind of "outside the box" study of electronics is simply not the case at all.

Quote
I think what you will find, is that in most set-ups, the LED itself never fully turns "off".

With a standard Joule Thief circuit the LED does switch off so the persistence of human vision does come into play.  I do appreciate how you stated that the persistence of human vision is a complex process and not necessarily a one-size-fits-all proposition.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 13, 2016, 01:57:08 AM
Smoky2:

Quote
I am trying to bring everyone up to speed on this, because once we all get it, we can go to the next level.

If people are still getting hung up on the very basics, we must communicate the information more effectively.

Simply put, once the JT is operating at a resonant frequency, we can remove the LED/load completely,
and couple to it, using the inductor as a transformer. By winding a secondary onto the ferrite.

With an appropriate capacitance, this secondary coil can be set resonate with the frequency of the rest of the circuit, and used to power a load.

I am all for that because I am all talked out about this.  The proof is in the pudding.

Not to be too cynical but often you see experiments around here that are all about a "new way" to power a load.  The catch is this:  Can your circuit outperform two wires?   Of course I am oversimplifying but I think you get my point.

MileHigh
   
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 13, 2016, 02:03:07 AM
Smoky2
Thanks for the helpful explanations. I think the direction with a secondary is where Jeanna was going some years back. She had some YT videos using multiple secondaries - very interesting stuff.  IST had a slightly different approach, and often used a kind of caduceus winding for his multiple secondaries. 
Looking forward to a more purposeful kind of build that would enable us to produce the resonant effect and draw from it.
Bob

All of Jenna's clips about this were just an exercise in experimenting with a transformer with multiple secondary windings.  How does a transformer distribute power when there are multiple secondary windings wiith different numbers of turns and perhaps each secondary is driving a different value of resistive load (or different LEDs)?

This is a basic nuts and bolts transformer question that any serious electronics hobbyist should try to answer for themselves.  When Jenna did this there was never a manifestation of extra power.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 13, 2016, 02:10:22 AM
Smoky said...
"I think what you will find, is that in most set-ups, the LED itself never fully turns "off"."


With a standard Joule Thief circuit the LED does switch off so the persistence of human vision does come into play.  I do appreciate how you stated that the persistence of human vision is a complex process and not necessarily a one-size-fits-all proposition.

MileHigh

With the led across the driver coil, not the trigger coil, the inductor collapse winding down could possibly still be passing current(and light output) through the led by the time the transistor is triggered again.  Also white leds have phosphorous that has a persistence of emission also. ;D


Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 13, 2016, 03:14:05 AM
With the led across the driver coil, not the trigger coil, the inductor collapse winding down could possibly still be passing current(and light output) through the led by the time the transistor is triggered again.  Also white leds have phosphorous that has a persistence of emission also. ;D


Mags

The LED will be off during the on time of the primary coil,as the voltage is inverted across the coil during the on time,and that voltage cannot exceed the voltage of the supply battery. You could of course use a diode and cap with an LED across the cap,and it will be on 100% of the time.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: seychelles on February 13, 2016, 05:15:39 AM
as always i will give away my top secret coil winding system..check it out..the winding is in bifilar configuration..
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 13, 2016, 05:20:39 AM
I seriously doubt that a normal Joule Thief can be made to keep the LED on all the time but it can be tried on the bench or in simulation.

The key thing about the Joule Thief transistor is that it snaps ON or it snaps OFF due to positive feedback.

What makes the Joule Thief transistor snap ON is the end of the discharge cycle of the LED.  The potential at the coil-LED terminal drops when the LED discharge is ending.  That drop in potential on the output (right) side of the transformer makes the input (left) side of the of the transformer raise the potential of the base resistor to snap the transistor ON again.

So, it would appear that a Joule Thief can not keep the LED lit all the time because to start a new energizing cycle where you snap the transistor ON, the LED must complete it's discharge cycle and go off such that the energy in the coil is completely depleted first.

You can see how this "winging it" electronics talk can be so fruitless.  No schematics and no timing diagrams and no explanation of the normal operation of the circuit under discussion is the typical backdrop for having a meaningless conversation about electronics while pretending it actually means something.  I have seen discussions of up to 50 postings back and forth that all meant nothing.

On a thread about two or three years ago Poynt got involved in a Joule Thief discussion and some beautiful comprehensive Joule Thief timing diagrams were posted.  I don't recall if they were simulations or scope shots but I think they were supplied by Poynt.  I tried a Google search for Joule Thief timing diagrams but could not find any.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 13, 2016, 06:38:56 AM
I dont want to bring it up further than this, but I wish to reiterate my slight objection to using the circuit I had shown earlier with the led across the transistor.

I went through a search of jt circuits to get a quick view of what seemed most common and some that are variants.

The most popular circuit is the one with the led across the transistor.

The circuit below, which I have labeled as 'wrong'(even though it still works I suppose) seems to take away efficiency by draining the battery when switching on and also draining in series with the discharge into the led. Now below that pic is one that I have labeled 'right' in which I moved the led across the coil instead where it doesnt have the battery draining when the led lights. 

What Im thinking is that the popular circuit 'wrong'(probably the first ever that started it all?) is probably the worst circuit of them to use when we talk efficiency. I would bet that it drains the battery faster than the 'right' circuit. Just being that this is JT 101, that should be discussed a little, maybe.

The 3rd circuit shows a battery being charged as an output and is where I would expect it to be in the circuit. If the battery and the diode were across the transistor and in the 'wrong' circuit, the source battery would be drained as much as the load battery is being charged! ???   Thats not good at all, let alone the source battery has to pump the inductor. Drain and more drain. ::) I want to go the most efficient route here. ;) Never built one but I know how it works. I noticed this issue(to me it is an issue :P ;D ) very quickly just looking at the current paths.

I read once before that a jt is really no more efficient than running the led direct and the only advantage was that it ran on virtually dead batteries. Well if they were testing for efficiency with the 'wrong' circuit, then maybe so. ;)

Had anyone discussed this before possibly?

Mags

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 13, 2016, 07:24:12 AM
Looking at the 3rd pic in my post above, it seems the batteries are not correct polarity for the circuit. Picked it from a big list on search. But the output deal is what I wanted to show an example of.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 13, 2016, 09:18:49 AM
If I remember correctly (this was a good 7-8 years ago or something...)

The JT circuit sprung from several replication attempts of BruceTPU's self-oscillating circuit.
Which flashed an LED (slowly) for a confirmed 30+days off a capacitor and a resonant tank, which had everyone excited.
Noone was able to replicate what bruce was doing, most of them stated arguments that sound a lot like MH's discussion here.

However, when a battery was added, the circuit performed nicely. Eventually it was found that the batteries don't need to be fully charged. All this was done without the basic operating principals understood.

does the circuit "work" as it is built by a majority of the unknowledged replicators?
I suppose that depends on what you are trying to "do" with it....

If your goal was to light an LED,. then yes I supposed a JT works, no matter how you build it.
There are voltage step-up circuits that will do the same thing much better.

I guess I have the experience of watching the whole thing evolve, from an outside perspective.
I saw the obvious fact that no one was listening to Bruce.
Maybe because they were trained by the industry, perhaps because they could not comprehend the principals.
But at the end of the day, this thing spread around like candy, kids were building them everywhere.

hey LOOK!! this thing can light an LED with a dead battery!!! <<-- this is not even what makes the JT special.....
it is basically a side effect from one particular configuration, that caught on as a fad.

the name "joule thief" was coined some time after the device had been in circulation. The (2 possibly 3) people involved in propagating its' name took the information from the threads and put it in a logical, replicatable form that everyone could easily build. With no knowledge of electronics, signal processing, electrical engineering, physics, magnetics, or any other field that applies to the operation of this circuit. Anyone can copy the design and light an LED with it.

If that is as far as you want to take this technology.. umm,. the door is that way.

To claim that this is not an Armstrong Oscillator, is rather an absurd statement.
Even in its' most simplified form, it still remains such.
The fact that people ignorantly destroy the resonance of the tank, is quite frankly irrelevant.

There was a lot of questions posted recently, I will try to address them here. sorry if I missed one.

@ Mags - on the secondary load,
to put is simply, yes the load affects circuit resonance. Diodes can be used, if resistance can be kept within nominal values. Also, another inductor of greater impedance can prevent destructive feedback.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9RgjAgSQOg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9RgjAgSQOg)

It is almost a lose-lose situation to try to force the load to be resonant with the coil.
because the primary circuit has a resistance and impedance that differs from that of the ferrite with coil
There is a "mirroring" technique, but it can't really apply to the JT, at least not in the way we use it.

rather the transformer in its' entirety is made to be resonant, and the load is separated by a rectifier circuit,
or appropriate impedance, to prevent destructive feedback from destroying the resonant waveform.

In the above circuit, the number of turns on the secondary coil of the JT, was increased from that of the primary coil, until a resonant node was found.
The second inductor is much larger, with a much greater number of turns on the coil.
The impedance keeps the voltage from fully being achieved in the larger inductor.
Timing of the primary oscillator truncates the amplitude of the waveform, and it presents itself as a lower voltage , higher current signal.
--Note here that the secondary larger ring, is NOT self-resonant with the JT portion of the circuit.
   it oscillates with the resonant freq of the JT, but the ferrite and coil in the second inductor are much different.
The second inductor cannot be made to be self resonant with the coil that is around it.

[When the same large ring is used directly in a JT, the voltages spike to around 90V DC, and almost no current.
some LEDs can pass it through (arc?) , others get damaged.]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

@ MileHigh

What is the effect of discharging a magnetic inductor (current source) through a coil, when the inductor was magnetically charged, with the lowest possible reluctance?

Does the inductor (current source) then discharge with the most energy possible, because losses are minimized?

Why would you intentionally try NOT to do that?

As for operating JT circuits with voltage sources other than a battery -

You seriously need to do some research. I can name no less than a dozen people on this forum that have posted videos of a JT running from an earth battery. I myself have done this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrrFsiMXrvA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrrFsiMXrvA)

There are also many other videos out there using all kinds of voltage sources.

the desk was a woodentop, metal frame desk, upon which sat a lamp, a computer and monitor.
The desk measureably sat at about 43V DC, we assumed because of the electronics sitting on it.
and Yes it powered a JT, because we tried it.

Quote
With a standard Joule Thief circuit the LED does switch off so the persistence of human vision does come into play.  I do appreciate how you stated that the persistence of human vision is a complex process and not necessarily a one-size-fits-all proposition.

MileHigh

This is a yes, and a no...  more recent JTs use faster reacting LED's. And will in fact flicker rapidly.
Many of the originals used a certain type of Red LED, found in college electronics kits.

These LED's, when powered on, then switched off, take some time to turn off. The light dims gradually.
In most scenarios, using these LEDs in a JT circuit, cut-off time of the LED is longer than half the frequency.
Thus, by the time the LED fully dims, it has already received another pulse and lit back up again.
There is no perceivable "off" condition, by the human eye, or by luminescent monitoring equipment.
What IS perceived, is a dimming of the light. But not a complete off-state.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 13, 2016, 09:39:57 AM

What makes the Joule Thief transistor snap ON is the end of the discharge cycle of the LED.  The potential at the coil-LED terminal drops when the LED discharge is ending.  That drop in potential on the output (right) side of the transformer makes the input (left) side of the of the transformer raise the potential of the base resistor to snap the transistor ON again.

So, it would appear that a Joule Thief can not keep the LED lit all the time because to start a new energizing cycle where you snap the transistor ON, the LED must complete it's discharge cycle and go off such that the energy in the coil is completely depleted first.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Makes no sense to me...

a JT can oscillate without the LED present in the circuit.
the LED is only there so you can "see" when the circuit is oscillating.
There are other ways to see this, without using an LED wasting away your energy....

Amplitudes of both voltage AND current increase when the LED is removed.

the "on" - "off" state of the transistor is a function of the inductor/battery circuit, NOT the LED.
you can change the location of the LED, or remove it completely.

The signal at the base from the inductor is what turns the transistor on.
It boosts the voltage from the "dead" battery to above the cut-on voltage of the transistor.
That's what makes the transistor turn on (and the LED light up).
Inductance.
It is a factor of the number of turns on the primary winding.
This is why it is usually such a low number (8-15 turns)

More turns = higher voltage. at some point, you exceed the operating voltage of the transistor.






Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 13, 2016, 11:09:57 AM
Yep, all true, pretty much without additional comment necessary.

I've demonstrated my HVJT lighting up 6 NE-2s in series, spiking to over 800 volts, using a AAA battery for input, or even using my wireless power receiver-transmitter system instead of an onboard battery.


Mostly I want to point out that the two circuits using NPN transistors that Mags posted up above are just about equivalent in terms of light intensity and electrical efficiency, as far as I can tell. They work fine using supercaps, but the input voltage must be kept low or the transistor will saturate and stop oscillating, of course. With no LED load they spike to over 26 volts with less than 1 volt input.

Here's a scopeshot of the  Mags "right" circuit (LED across transformer winding rather than across E-C of the transistor). I made a 6-pad version and used a MPSA18 transistor and a 150 ohm base resistor to keep it consistent with my "standard" 6-pad JT, and I used 2 Max Lumileds in series as the load. Both circuits give an illumination of about 11.5 lux at my standard 43 cm distance in my lightbox.

I don't know what to say about the PNP circuit up above, I've never tried it myself. I have made some PNP JTs... in fact the standard circuit will generally work with a PNP transistor if you reverse E and C connection and battery polarity. (IIRC... I don't have one set up at the moment.)
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 13, 2016, 01:42:57 PM
OK... to do a more valid comparison of the two circuits (Mags's "right" with LED across the coil, and the Standard "wrong" with LED across E-C of transistor) I wound another toroid of 36+36 turns (arbitrarily chosen) and breadboarded the two circuits with the same components each time, to eliminate variations due to component differences. I used a 1000 ohm gate resistor, an MPSA18 transistor, two Max LumiLEDs in series as load, and the toroid, all same components in both cases. I used my lightbox with Extech LT300 lightmeter to check the brightness of the LED load at 18 inches from LEDs to sensor. It's simple to rewire the breadboard from one configuration to the other, just have to change one wire. I used the same depleted AG13  alkaline button cell, which measures 1.27 volts open-circuit (after running the tests).

So, the scopeshots below show the two circuits.
#128 is the "Mags right" circuit, and it produced a reading of 8.5 Lux on the lightmeter.
#129 is the "Standard wrong" circuit, and it produced a reading of 9.8 Lux on the lightmeter.

Later on I'll do an electrical efficiency test by measuring the average input power to the circuits and compare that to the brightness, so I'll get values in Lux per Watt for the two circuits.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 13, 2016, 09:58:59 PM
Smoky2:

Quote
To claim that this is not an Armstrong Oscillator, is rather an absurd statement.
Even in its' most simplified form, it still remains such.
The fact that people ignorantly destroy the resonance of the tank, is quite frankly irrelevant.

It is clearly not an Armstrong oscillator and there is no resonant tank.  There is nothing absurd about my statement at all. You simply have to look at a Joule Thief schematic and compare it to the schematics of an Armstrong oscillator.  See attached.

So if you want to make that claim and have it taken seriously then you have to go beyond just posting text.  Right now you are the one making the absurd statement.

Quote
What is the effect of discharging a magnetic inductor (current source) through a coil, when the inductor was magnetically charged, with the lowest possible reluctance?

Does the inductor (current source) then discharge with the most energy possible, because losses are minimized?

Why would you intentionally try NOT to do that?

If I understand your question properly, and that's sometimes difficult because you are sparing with your words, when one inductor discharges into another inductor (presumably with no current flowing through it) then you get a near-instantaneous spike of voltage from the first inductor inducing the second inductor to get current flowing though it.  In a very short amount of time both inductors have the same current flowing through them.  The original current flowing in the first inductor takes a step down such that the energy is conserved.

I don't know why you say, "Why would you intentionally try NOT to do that?" because there is seeming no discernible context to whatever point you are trying to get across.

Quote
You seriously need to do some research. I can name no less than a dozen people on this forum that have posted videos of a JT running from an earth battery.

The problem is that you did not say "earth battery" you said "earth."  Of course a Joule Thief can run from an earth battery which in reality is just current due to the slow corrosion of a metal like magnesium.

Quote
the desk was a woodentop, metal frame desk, upon which sat a lamp, a computer and monitor.
The desk measureably sat at about 43V DC, we assumed because of the electronics sitting on it.
and Yes it powered a JT, because we tried it.

One more time, it's the same issue.  All that you said was "metal frame desk" and you said nothing beyond that.  If you made serious measurements on the "output" of the desk you would quote more than just "43V DC" which is almost meaningless.

Quote
These LED's, when powered on, then switched off, take some time to turn off. The light dims gradually.

I'd be more than happy to look at an LED data sheet showing that if you can link to one.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 13, 2016, 10:18:02 PM
@ TK - I love the clothespin battery holder :)


@ MH - in your comparative analysis of the two circuits, did you notice the functional difference between the two diagrams?

essentially, they operate the same, minus one important factor.

the R-C component of the tank circuit vs the L of the coil are set to resonate with each other.
This, not taken into consideration in the JT equivalent circuit, reduces performance.

The same could be said about the Armstrong circuit, if one chose to change the value of R or C.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 13, 2016, 10:36:51 PM
Smoky2:

Quote
a JT can oscillate without the LED present in the circuit.
the LED is only there so you can "see" when the circuit is oscillating.
There are other ways to see this, without using an LED wasting away your energy....

Amplitudes of both voltage AND current increase when the LED is removed.

In a regular Joule Thief if you remove the LED it will presumably still operate like you state.  The inductor would have no choice but to discharge through the transistor.  The average power is low so presumably it would not fry the transistor junctions.

The voltage output from the coil will spike to a quite high voltage, it all depends on the speed that the transistor switches off.  However, I have "caught" you here with respect to the discharge current.  The current will NOT increase.  Are you sure that you fully understand the complete dynamics of an inductor?

Quote
the "on" - "off" state of the transistor is a function of the inductor/battery circuit, NOT the LED.
you can change the location of the LED, or remove it completely.

I strongly suggest that you go back and watch the clip about the operation of a Joule Thief that I linked to the other day to review the positive-feedback "snapping" mechanism that switches the transistor ON and OFF and governs the operating frequency of the device.  It is also related to the rate of change of current flow through the main coil which is indeed related to the characteristics of the inductor and battery combination.

Quote
The signal at the base from the inductor is what turns the transistor on.
It boosts the voltage from the "dead" battery to above the cut-on voltage of the transistor.
That's what makes the transistor turn on (and the LED light up).
Inductance.
It is a factor of the number of turns on the primary winding.
This is why it is usually such a low number (8-15 turns)

More turns = higher voltage. at some point, you exceed the operating voltage of the transistor.

I agree that you can experiment with the number of turns in the coil that connects to the base resistor.  If you do that then you may want to change the value of the base resistor.  In the context of what you are stating, a transistor does not have an "operating voltage" it has an operating current.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 13, 2016, 10:52:52 PM
@ MH - in your comparative analysis of the two circuits, did you notice the functional difference between the two diagrams?

essentially, they operate the same, minus one important factor.

the R-C component of the tank circuit vs the L of the coil are set to resonate with each other.
This, not taken into consideration in the JT equivalent circuit, reduces performance.

The same could be said about the Armstrong circuit, if one chose to change the value of R or C.

I really don't know what you are saying here when you refer to the resistance in the Armstrong oscillator tank circuit.  For sure it is there but it is not relevant to the powered oscillation of the LC tank.

In a Joule Thief, the operating frequency is dependent on L/R type time constants, one L/R time constant for the energizing of the coil, and another L/R-type time constant for the discharge of the inductor energy through the LED.

Now, seriously, how can you equate the resonant frequency of an Armstrong oscillator based on an LC resonant tank and the operating frequency of a Joule Thief based on a first L/R time constant for the energizing of the main coil and a second L/R-type time constant for the discharging of the coil through the LED?

Armstrong oscillator:  operating frequency determined by LC resonant tank.

Joule Thief:  operating frequency determined by (1/(L/R time constant#1 + L/R time constant#2))

Can you see how completely different these two methods are for determining the operating frequency are and how a Joule Thief's operating frequency has absolutely nothing to do with resonance?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 13, 2016, 11:13:42 PM
I really don't know what you are saying here when you refer to the resistance in the Armstrong oscillator tank circuit.  For sure it is there but it is not relevant to the powered oscillation of the LC tank.

In a Joule Thief, the operating frequency is dependent on L/R type time constants, one L/R time constant for the energizing of the coil, and another L/R-type time constant for the discharge of the inductor energy through the LED.

Now, seriously, how can you equate the resonant frequency of an Armstrong oscillator based on an LC resonant tank and the operating frequency of a Joule Thief based on a first L/R time constant for the energizing of the main coil and a second L/R-type time constant for the discharging of the coil through the LED?

Armstrong oscillator:  operating frequency determined by LC resonant tank.

Joule Thief:  operating frequency determined by (1/(L/R time constant#1 + L/R time constant#2))

Can you see how completely different these two methods are for determining the operating frequency are and how a Joule Thief's operating frequency has absolutely nothing to do with resonance?

MileHigh

you are basically peeling an apple, taking the seeds out and proclaiming, see, this is not an apple at all....

the Resistance/Impedance of the Armstrong circuit is equally important as the Capacitance and Inductance.
In fact, all 3 must be maintained in perfect balance for the circuit to be resonant at that frequency.

This quality makes the Armstrong Oscillator an RLC circuit, Not simply an LC tank.
Though, under certain analysis, the two can behave similarly.

[I would go even further by stating that an LC tank is technically defined also as an RLC.
because of our wires containing some resistance value, but its effect on resonance frequencies can be negligible]

the Joule Thief, is also an RLC circuit, and its' type is classified as an Armstrong Oscillator.
this is a technical definition written in the stone of electronics theory.
Many RLC circuits exist, and most of them are named according to their Inventor, or a particular aspect of their operation.
When we classify the Joule Thief, this is the category it falls under.
all circuits that fall into this category are considered to be Armstrong Oscillators.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 13, 2016, 11:19:40 PM
I have done, what I think is (currently) my best attempt to bring this knowledge into the public realm, as it pertains to the JT circuit.

To understand more, from perhaps a more technical aspect than I myself can present.
I would direct you to the works of Edwin Armstrong - who is considered by some to be the GodFather of radio.

http://users.erols.com/oldradio/ (http://users.erols.com/oldradio/)

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 13, 2016, 11:57:02 PM
Smoky2:

In a regular Joule Thief if you remove the LED it will presumably still operate like you state.  The inductor would have no choice but to discharge through the transistor.  The average power is low so presumably it would not fry the transistor junctions.
You make some big assumptions here, but outside of resonant frequencies, yes your electronics should be safe, given the parameters of the system to be within tolerance.


Quote
The voltage output from the coil will spike to a quite high voltage, it all depends on the speed that the transistor switches off.
This "speed" you speak of,. this wouldn't be related to "frequency" would it?
More specifically, the frequency-dependent curve of the transistor switching function?

Quote
However, I have "caught" you here with respect to the discharge current.  The current will NOT increase.  Are you sure that you fully understand the complete dynamics of an inductor?
Allow me to clarify, by "increase" upon removal of the LED, it can instead be stated that:
by including an LED, there is a drop in current through the parallel paths, and an associated voltage drop across the diode.
This is important to consider, when analyzing the feedback signal.
It represents a higher impedance, as well as a lower voltage.
Impedance differs from a purely resistance perspective,
because changes in amplitude over time as well as phase come into play.
Note that it does not matter if this impedance is included in series or parallel.
Though its' physical location around the loop does affect certain parameters,
 as shown in TK's demonstration above. <- while this makes for great conversation,
 I feel that is above the technical level of a basic "101" crash course.

Quote
I strongly suggest that you go back and watch the clip about the operation of a Joule Thief that I linked to the other day to review the positive-feedback "snapping" mechanism that switches the transistor ON and OFF and governs the operating frequency of the device.  It is also related to the rate of change of current flow through the main coil which is indeed related to the characteristics of the inductor and battery combination.

I do not particularly agree with the assumptions made by that analysis.
While these factors are related, as I have described in previous posts,
phase angle between the signals must be properly considered to discuss what is being shown.

Quote
I agree that you can experiment with the number of turns in the coil that connects to the base resistor.  If you do that then you may want to change the value of the base resistor.  In the context of what you are stating, a transistor does not have an "operating voltage" it has an operating current.

MileHigh

Hmm,.. I've run into this before.  where I come from we use terms like Cut-in/Cut-out, or Cut-On/Cut-Off.
What this refers to is:
the voltage threshold that represents the transition stage between:
the Cut-Off and Active regions of the transistor. Below this voltage, the semiconductor does not allow current to pass.
Above this voltage current can travel.
This function is controlled in part by the base voltage (bias).

The transistor in the Joule thief transitions between Cut-off and forward active operation modes.
(up to the point of saturation) at which point the diode becomes the primary conductor until voltage potential drops below
the cut-off of the LED. at which point it begins to dissipate its' capacitance as light. (discharge)
Saturation only generally occurs in a JT when the LED(s) have a high internal capacitance (long discharge time).
This allows for a unique scenario when the voltage drop across the diode makes the emitter voltage appear lower than the base.

Otherwise, the transistor remains in one of these two states.
The actual timing diagram of the switching function, can display a wide range of characteristics.
Outside of linear mode, and/or resonant operation - this function appears as a sharp spike at cut-on, and a gradual decrease at cut-off. (removing the LED changes the shape of these spikes).
When operated in linear mode, at resonance, it is a pure sine-wave function, with varying amplitudes.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 14, 2016, 12:01:44 AM
you are basically peeling an apple, taking the seeds out and proclaiming, see, this is not an apple at all....

the Resistance/Impedance of the Armstrong circuit is equally important as the Capacitance and Inductance.
In fact, all 3 must be maintained in perfect balance for the circuit to be resonant at that frequency.

This quality makes the Armstrong Oscillator an RLC circuit, Not simply an LC tank.
Though, under certain analysis, the two can behave similarly.

[I would go even further by stating that an LC tank is technically defined also as an RLC.
because of our wires containing some resistance value, but its effect on resonance frequencies can be negligible]

the Joule Thief, is also an RLC circuit, and its' type is classified as an Armstrong Oscillator.
this is a technical definition written in the stone of electronics theory.
Many RLC circuits exist, and most of them are named according to their Inventor, or a particular aspect of their operation.
When we classify the Joule Thief, this is the category it falls under.
all circuits that fall into this category are considered to be Armstrong Oscillators.

No in fact the resistance is not that critical in the RLC resonator because it is an active circuit where an external power source keeps the resonator resonating regardless of the inherent resistance in the resonating components.  There is no special balance with regards to the resistance in what is essentially an LC resonator.

Th Joule Thief is not an RLC circuit as I have clearly shown.  It is an active circuit that charges and then discharges a coil.  It's the charging cycle and the discharging cycle that determine the operating frequency, and there is no RLC resonator in sight.  Instead there are two L/R-type time constants that factor in to determine the operating frequency of the Joule Thief in its standard normal operating mode.

You can try to ignore what I am saying, but facts are facts.  Anybody that is interested in electronics would want to study and learn about both pulse circuits and resonating circuits and the associated need to be able to recognize and make a distinction between pulse circuits and resonating circuits.

Note that I am not talking about a hacked Joule Thief circuit here, just an ordinary plain vanilla Joule Thief that is a basic pulse circuit that switches a transistor on and off.  It's a distant cousin of a 555 timer circuit configured as a free running astable multibrator.  Likewise, a 555 running as an astable multivibrator has nothing to do with resonance.  Its operating frequency is determined by RC time constants whereas for the Joule Thief its operating frequency is determined by L/R time constants.

Like I said, you have a "fan club" and anyone interested in Joule Thieves should build a standard Joule Thief first and understand how it operates and probe it with their scope and observe the positive feedback mechanisms in operation.  Then if they want to hack into it and try to make it resonate then more power to them.  The critical point being that if they are claiming resonance then they need to identify the L and C components that are exchanging energy back and forth and show that in action.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 14, 2016, 02:20:46 AM
No in fact the resistance is not that critical in the RLC resonator because it is an active circuit where an external power source keeps the resonator resonating regardless of the inherent resistance in the resonating components.  There is no special balance with regards to the resistance in what is essentially an LC resonator.

Th Joule Thief is not an RLC circuit as I have clearly shown.  It is an active circuit that charges and then discharges a coil.  It's the charging cycle and the discharging cycle that determine the operating frequency, and there is no RLC resonator in sight.  Instead there are two L/R-type time constants that factor in to determine the operating frequency of the Joule Thief in its standard normal operating mode.

You can try to ignore what I am saying, but facts are facts.  Anybody that is interested in electronics would want to study and learn about both pulse circuits and resonating circuits and the associated need to be able to recognize and make a distinction between pulse circuits and resonating circuits.

Note that I am not talking about a hacked Joule Thief circuit here, just an ordinary plain vanilla Joule Thief that is a basic pulse circuit that switches a transistor on and off.  It's a distant cousin of a 555 timer circuit configured as a free running astable multibrator.  Likewise, a 555 running as an astable multivibrator has nothing to do with resonance.  Its operating frequency is determined by RC time constants whereas for the Joule Thief its operating frequency is determined by L/R time constants.

Like I said, you have a "fan club" and anyone interested in Joule Thieves should build a standard Joule Thief first and understand how it operates and probe it with their scope and observe the positive feedback mechanisms in operation.  Then if they want to hack into it and try to make it resonate then more power to them.  The critical point being that if they are claiming resonance then they need to identify the L and C components that are exchanging energy back and forth and show that in action.

MileHigh

Quote
Th Joule Thief is not an RLC circuit as I have clearly shown.

How did you ever come up with that MH ?.
The JT is most certainly an RLC circuit.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 14, 2016, 02:30:24 AM
Thanks for taking the time to do those tests TK.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 14, 2016, 02:56:23 AM
How did you ever come up with that MH ?.
The JT is most certainly an RLC circuit.

Brad

Really?  Take a look at the attached diagram.  This is an intentionally simplified explanation showing the two principal processes that determine the operating frequency of the Joule Thief that ignores the battery voltage and the positive feedback transistor switching process.

There used to be a good explanation on the operating frequency of a Joule Thief that went into quite a bit of detail on Wikipedia but apparently it was disputed because it has since been removed.  Here is a link that discusses the inductance being a prime factor with some information from the older version of the now-modified Wikipedia page:

http://www.elperfecto.com/2011/01/22/toroidal-inductors-number-of-turns-affects-joule-thief/ (http://www.elperfecto.com/2011/01/22/toroidal-inductors-number-of-turns-affects-joule-thief/)

Feel free to make your case for a Joule Thief being an RLC circuit.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 14, 2016, 03:12:33 AM
Just made a quick sim of the right and wrong circuits running simultaneously. The circuits do work. The left is what I had labeled as 'wrong' and the circuit on the right is, well, 'right' ;D

The scope shots are source(1.5v batt) pk power traces to the left, top is 'wrong' and bottom is 'right'. And the traces on the right are the leds, top 'wrong' bottom is 'right'.    The power traces are peaks, not average power. So we will leave it up to TK to determine which circuit has the advantage of pulling less from the source. He has shown a higher lux from the leds with the 'wrong' circuit so far. Im not sure if that is a noticeable difference in brightness to the eye.

The 'right' circuit has a higher running freq.   

If you slow down the sim control slider, the 'wrong' circuit it seems the transistor never really turns off and always draining the source, along with the led draining the source when it is on. And the 'right' circuit the transistor does turn off and the led does not drain the source when on.

Here is the code for the sim. For some odd reason the codes dont always provide the scopes as what shows when the code is exported. I retried the code and it did this time.


$ 1 5.0E-6 0.625470095193633 50 5.0 43
t 416 400 496 400 0 1 -1.403784455736806 0.7049612942489206 100.0
w 496 416 496 448 0
w 496 448 336 448 0
169 416 240 496 240 0 1.0E-4 1.0 -0.001746210276144522 1.2763726782599143 1.2763726782599143
w 496 240 496 208 0
w 496 208 416 208 0
s 336 208 416 208 0 0 false
v 336 448 336 208 0 0 40.0 1.5 0.0 0.0 0.5
r 384 304 384 400 0 100.0
w 496 384 496 304 0
w 496 304 560 304 0
w 496 448 560 448 0
162 560 304 560 448 1 2.1024259 1.0 0.0 0.0
w 416 208 384 240 0
w 384 240 416 304 0
w 416 240 384 304 0
w 384 400 416 400 0
w 784 400 816 400 0
w 816 240 784 304 0
w 784 240 816 304 0
w 816 208 784 240 0
w 896 384 896 304 0
r 784 304 784 400 0 100.0
v 736 448 736 208 0 0 40.0 1.5 0.0 0.0 0.5
s 736 208 816 208 0 0 false
w 896 208 816 208 0
w 896 240 896 208 0
169 816 240 896 240 0 1.0E-4 1.0 5.1958437552457326E-14 0.31968522644013664 0.3196852264401375
w 896 448 736 448 0
w 896 416 896 448 0
t 816 400 896 400 0 1 -4.049226601125407 -0.5211382639894485 100.0
w 896 304 944 304 0
w 896 240 944 240 0
162 944 304 944 240 1 2.1024259 1.0 0.0 0.0
o 7 1 1 291 4.676805239458889 9.765625E-55 0 -1
o 23 1 1 291 4.676805239458889 9.765625E-55 0 -1
o 12 1 1 35 5.0 9.765625E-5 1 -1
o 33 1 1 35 5.0 9.765625E-5 1 -1


Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 14, 2016, 03:52:34 AM
It seems the code I posted has the resistor at 100ohm.  Change to 500ohm to show what I posted in the pic.. 100ohm here tends to run the circuit in the greater than 1 watt range. Trying to stay some what in bounds.  The transformer is 1:1 100uh.   Didnt play with transistor or led settings.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2016, 09:30:17 AM
No in fact the resistance is not that critical in the RLC resonator because it is an active circuit where an external power source keeps the resonator resonating regardless of the inherent resistance in the resonating components.  There is no special balance with regards to the resistance in what is essentially an LC resonator.

MileHigh

Bullshit.

When you alter the resistance in a RLC circuit, you CHANGE the resonant frequency.
This is a self-defined term.
Resistance is an important factor in the equations.


[go ahead and do a search on my name, and see how many times I declare bullshit on someone.......]


Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 14, 2016, 10:09:37 AM
Bullshit.

When you alter the resistance in a RLC circuit, you CHANGE the resonant frequency.
This is a self-defined term.
Resistance is an important factor in the equations.

The most complete response I can give you to that is yes and no.

Yes in the sense that an electronics expert, the late MarkE, stated that the resistance can affect the self-resonant frequency and I was quite surprised.  I don't remember the details but he clearly stated that the value of the resistance can marginally affect the self-resonant frequency and I am quite certain that this effect came into play for larger resistances.

No in the sense that we are talking about a LC circuit where the resistance is typically very low and will not have any real effect on the self-resonant frequency as defined by "omega = 1/sqrt(LC)."  That is a very familiar formula that most people are aware of.

Here is the Google search link for, "resonance of an rlc circuit:"

https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=resonance+of+an+rlc+circuit (https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=resonance+of+an+rlc+circuit)

In the first six links you will see the resonance frequency defined for both serial and parallel RLC circuits as "omega = 1/sqrt(LC)" even when they clearly show resistances in the RLC circuits being discussed.  In other words they are ignoring the value of the resistance because in the majority of cases it can be ignored.

So, we are coming back to reality:  For nearly all practical intents and purposes, the resonant frequency of an RLC circuit is a function of the inductance and capacitance only.  When the only resistances in the circuit are associated with the inductor and capacitor themselves and they are quite low, then it is only a function of the inductance and capacitance.  That is a reasonable answer that covers all the bases.

Quote
Resistance is an important factor in the equations.

Really?  Then the floor is yours.  Please go ahead and explain exactly what you mean in detail.  What are the equations?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 14, 2016, 01:00:00 PM
Really?  Take a look at the attached diagram.  This is an intentionally simplified explanation showing the two principal processes that determine the operating frequency of the Joule Thief that ignores the battery voltage and the positive feedback transistor switching process.

There used to be a good explanation on the operating frequency of a Joule Thief that went into quite a bit of detail on Wikipedia but apparently it was disputed because it has since been removed.  Here is a link that discusses the inductance being a prime factor with some information from the older version of the now-modified Wikipedia page:

http://www.elperfecto.com/2011/01/22/toroidal-inductors-number-of-turns-affects-joule-thief/ (http://www.elperfecto.com/2011/01/22/toroidal-inductors-number-of-turns-affects-joule-thief/)

Feel free to make your case for a Joule Thief being an RLC circuit.

MileHigh

As soon as you have two conducting wires wound around a core next to each other,then you also have a C value. This is more so pronounced due to the fact that the current through these two conducting wires flows in opposite directions at the same time with the JT circuit. There is also the fact that the transistor it self has Capacitance,and this C value alone also plays a factor in the operating frequency of the circuit. I have shown you before with my cool joule circuit that the Miller effect alone can send the circuit into oscillation without any inductive coupling at all between the two coil's. So to say that the JT has no C value is wrong-very wrong.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 14, 2016, 01:26:01 PM
The most complete response I can give you to that is yes and no.



No in the sense that we are talking about a LC circuit where the resistance is typically very low and will not have any real effect on the self-resonant frequency as defined by "omega = 1/sqrt(LC)."  That is a very familiar formula that most people are aware of.

Here is the Google search link for, "resonance of an rlc circuit:"

https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=resonance+of+an+rlc+circuit (https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=resonance+of+an+rlc+circuit)

In the first six links you will see the resonance frequency defined for both serial and parallel RLC circuits as "omega = 1/sqrt(LC)" even when they clearly show resistances in the RLC circuits being discussed.  In other words they are ignoring the value of the resistance because in the majority of cases it can be ignored.

So, we are coming back to reality:  For nearly all practical intents and purposes, the resonant frequency of an RLC circuit is a function of the inductance and capacitance only.  When the only resistances in the circuit are associated with the inductor and capacitor themselves and they are quite low, then it is only a function of the inductance and capacitance.  That is a reasonable answer that covers all the bases.

Really?  Then the floor is yours.  Please go ahead and explain exactly what you mean in detail.  What are the equations?

MileHigh

Quote
Yes in the sense that an electronics expert, the late MarkE, stated that the resistance can affect the self-resonant frequency and I was quite surprised.  I don't remember the details but he clearly stated that the value of the resistance can marginally affect the self-resonant frequency and I am quite certain that this effect came into play for larger resistances.

MarkE was indeed a great man,but even he had room to learn. Im sure you remember the thread MH (i cant),where i presented my cool joule circuit,and told MarkE that it operated due to the miller capacitance effect. At first he refused to believe that to be true, but then later on came back and confirmed that it was indeed the miller effect that was causing the circuit to oscillate.

There are those that dwell on these forum's that dont have much to say,but there knowledge far exceeds that of those here that often make a stand on what they believe to be true. Vortex1 is one of those extremely well versed in EE,and it's due to experience/bench time. He is also the one that worked out how my cool joule circuit was operating--i had no idea as to how or why it was working at the time,but now-because of Vortex1,i know exactly how it works.

The cool joule circuit operation was found quite by accident. I had one coil on top of the other,and as we would expect,the circuit ran quit fine. But when i went to reach for the soldering iron,i knocked the top coil of the bottom one-but the circuit still kept on oscillating :o. So i moved the top coil (base/emitter-trigger coil) further away from the drive coil,and still it kept oscillating. After a distance of over 1 meter between the two coils,we can eliminate the fact that any inductive coupling between the two coils was taking place,and so i presented this mystery circuit as the cool joule circuit,as i thought it was pretty cool that it operated without any inductive coupling between the two coils.

Anyway,i think you would be wise to listen to what Smokey has to say,as the JT definitely is an RLC circuit.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 14, 2016, 02:32:46 PM
As soon as you have two conducting wires wound around a core next to each other,then you also have a C value. This is more so pronounced due to the fact that the current through these two conducting wires flows in opposite directions at the same time with the JT circuit. There is also the fact that the transistor it self has Capacitance,and this C value alone also plays a factor in the operating frequency of the circuit. I have shown you before with my cool joule circuit that the Miller effect alone can send the circuit into oscillation without any inductive coupling at all between the two coil's. So to say that the JT has no C value is wrong-very wrong.

Brad

You are not making a case for a Joule Thief being an RLC circuit.  What that is supposed to mean is that the operating frequency is based on an LC resonant tank frequency and you can show how a Joule Thief is an actual RLC circuit.

What you are saying is that there is stray capacitance in the circuit.  Likewise there is stray inductance in the circuit.  In fact, for any circuit there is stray capacitance and stray inductance.  Sometimes it is significant, but most of the time it is insignificant at the normal operating frequency of the circuit.  Part of learning about electronics is to recognize when something is significant or not.

So I will ask you again, is a Joule Thief an RLC circuit or not?  If you say it is and the operating frequency is determined by an LC resonator, then please show the circuit, show where the resonator is, and describe now it operates.  Your discussion about stray capacitance above does not back up your claim.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 14, 2016, 02:47:40 PM
Brad:

Quote
There are those that dwell on these forum's that dont have much to say,but there knowledge far exceeds that of those here that often make a stand on what they believe to be true. Vortex1 is one of those extremely well versed in EE,and it's due to experience/bench time.

It's not a question of me "believing it to be true," I know what I am saying is true.  Rather, you are "believing it to be an RLC circuit."  Now if you were wise, you would actually look at what I stated about the Joule Thief and how it operates.  I did that over several postings and you are seemingly ignoring that and made no attempt to rebut it.  I linked to a clip that describes exactly how a Joule Thief operates with a full five minute description.  You are seemingly ignoring that also and making no attempt to rebut that.

If you are going to simply ignore what I said then it's willful ignorance on your part and you don't advance.  Look at what I said, look at what Smoky2 said, look at what you yourself said, and go online and do some of your own research.  Don't just almost blindly say, "Oh, a Joule Thief is an RLC circuit because there is some stray capacitance between the windings" because that is dead wrong.  It's nothing more than an incorrect "drive by" evaluation of a Joule Thief circuit.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 14, 2016, 02:55:01 PM
Brad:

It's not a question of me "believing it to be true," I know what I am saying is true.  Rather, you are "believing it to be an RLC circuit."  Now if you were wise, you would actually look at what I stated about the Joule Thief and how it operates.  I did that over several postings and you are seemingly ignoring that and made no attempt to rebut it.  I linked to a clip that describes exactly how a Joule Thief operates with a full five minute description.  You are seemingly ignoring that also and making no attempt to rebut that.

If you are going to simply ignore what I said then it's willful ignorance on your part and you don't advance.  Look at what I said, look at what Smoky2 said, look at what you yourself said, and go online and do some of your own research.  Don't just almost blindly say, "Oh, a Joule Thief is an RLC circuit because there is some stray capacitance between the windings" because that is dead wrong.  It's nothing more than an incorrect "drive by" evaluation of a Joule Thief circuit.

MileHigh

The JT works quit fine without inductive coupling between the two winding's,and the reason it dose that is due to the C value of the transistor. When operating at low voltages as the JT dose,and the frequencies involved,the transistors own capacitance plays a vital roll. We know this capacitance exist,so i am at a loss as to how you can say it dose not ???. As it dose exist,and is part of the circuit,then the circuit !is! an RLC circuit.


Brad.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 14, 2016, 03:09:11 PM
The JT works quit fine without inductive coupling between the two winding's,and the reason it dose that is due to the C value of the transistor. When operating at low voltages as the JT dose,and the frequencies involved,the transistors own capacitance plays a vital roll. We know this capacitance exist,so i am at a loss as to how you can say it dose not ??? . As it dose exist,and is part of the circuit,then the circuit !is! an RLC circuit.

Brad.

Nope, you aren't going to actually show how a Joule Thief is an RLC circuit and show how it operates as an RLC circuit because you can't.  You can't sketch out the circuit or sketch out timing diagrams to back up what you are claiming.  What you are doing is making up a word salad.

Also, the Joule Thief will not work as a Joule Thief, if it woks at all, without the inductive coupling between the two windings.  Saying it works because of "the C value of the transistor" is just more word salad.

The fundamental timing and operation of a Joule Thief is based on L/R time constants and there is no resonance at play at all - the Joule Thief timing and operation is governed by the interaction between inductance and resistance and not capacitance.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2016, 08:41:56 PM
we can just "ignore" this 100k Ohm resistor


pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

Since the floor is mine, I think I will mop it shiny with some Mr. Clean...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ MH - I'm glad you learned how to use Google to help you learn things.
But you cannot take at face value the first equation you come across.
For the sake of humbling your argument that resistance does not matter,
We will suspend all forethought of Ohms Law.
And only consider the direct equations that apply specifically to an RLC circuit.

Your mistake here, is that you are considering the equation:
Wo = 1/ [(sqrt)LC] This is taken in Radians (not freq.)
What this represents, in terms of an RLC circuit, is the Natural Frequency.
This is the resonant frequency the circuit will assume without constantly driving the circuit.
When resistance is very low (not the case of the JT) it can be taken as an LC tank circuit.
If you have not noticed by now, a JT will NOT continue to resonate after the power is cut.


The resonant frequency of the RLC circuit when it is powered (driven) resistance, as a factor of Damping
as:  Damping Factor = Attenuation (in Nepers) / Wo (in radians).
This is most easily measured in the Joule Thief circuit as the Q factor.
the Q of the circuit = 1/R [(sqrt)L/C]

When Q is low, the circuit is "damped", and losses are heavy.
When Q is high, the circuit is "underdamped" and can oscillate,
 but there are inductive losses on the magnetic side.

When all components of the circuit are operating at a resonance
 that is also a resonant node of each components SRF
losses are minimized.



Using Kirchhoff's Voltage Law (Vr + Vl +Vc = V(t)): we can reduce the attenuation equation to a value ~ =
R/2L
(I know I said I would suspend Ohm's law, and Kirchhoff is basically the same idea, but this is necessary here)

Therefore, the 2 part equation, for the JT circuit is represented as
a=R/2L
and
Wo= 1/ [(sqrt)LC]

The proportionality between these two factors represents the Damping Factor.
And this can be taken as : 
Damping Factor = (R/2)[(sqrt)C/L]

Therfore, to determine Resonant Frequency, we are left with a Complex Frequency response (s),
part is the Natural Frequency, and the other part is the attenuation.
when s=jW ; where j is the imaginary part of the derivative -- the circuit assumes a sinusoidal steady state.

(peak) Voltage and current levels of the resonant waveform are defined by the relationship:
V(s)=I(s)(R+ L(s) + 1/C(s))

Admittance (Y) = 1/Impedance (Z) (inversely proportional)
Admittance Y(s) = I(s)/V(s) or s/L[s^2+(R/L)s +1/LC]

Now, looking ONLY at current, we find there is a Peak value of the function I(jW)
where (Wo) is also the natural resonant frequency.  Wo = 1/[(sqrt)LC]
It is important to note here, the peak value for Voltage; V(jW) derives a different frequency.

solving for Impedance with respect to frequency we find that:
Z = jWL + 1/jWC + R
By this analysis, we see that at the natural frequency; Wo=1/[(sqrt)LC]
Electrical Impedance peaks at a maximum.
However, Magnetic Reluctance (through the ferrite) at this frequency is NOT at a minimum.
Thus at Wo = 1/[(sqrt)LC], losses approach a peak. (not the maximum configuration, but quite high)


When the complex frequency is taken to be the resonant frequency of the circuit,
and this frequency is also a resonant node of the SRF of all components, such that s=jw
(making the assumption that the base voltage at this frequency is within the linear mode of the transistor)
we find peak (not max peak) amplitudes in both the current, and voltage within the frequency domain.
This represents a condition of maximum power transfer from the battery to the inductor, in a steady-state sinusoidal wave.

the resonant frequency of the feedback loop:
this is the current path through the resistor and coil presenting a reflection at the B-E junction of the transistor.
is defined as:

Wo = (sqrt)[1/LC - (R/L)^2] - note that the resistance value (R) is different from the resistance through the primary current path.

there is a 3rd current path in some configurations, that includes a factor of the batteries internal resistance,
I will not get into much more detail on that particular,
 as it can be represented as a loss constant pertaining to the battery.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


**puts up the wet floor sign**












Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 14, 2016, 09:00:33 PM
we can just "ignore" this 100k Ohm resistor


pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

Since the floor is mine, I think I will mop it shiny with some Mr. Clean...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ MH - I'm glad you learned how to use Google to help you learn things.
But you cannot take at face value the first equation you come across.
For the sake of humbling your argument that resistance does not matter,
We will suspend all forethought of Ohms Law.
And only consider the direct equations that apply specifically to an RLC circuit.

Your mistake here, is that you are considering the equation:
Wo = 1/ [(sqrt)LC] This is taken in Radians (not freq.)
What this represents, in terms of an RLC circuit, is the Natural Frequency.
This is the resonant frequency the circuit will assume without constantly driving the circuit.
When resistance is very low (not the case of the JT) it can be taken as an LC tank circuit.
If you have not noticed by now, a JT will NOT continue to resonate after the power is cut.


The resonant frequency of the RLC circuit when it is powered (driven) resistance, as a factor of Damping
as:  Damping Factor = Attenuation (in Nepers) / Wo (in radians).
This is most easily measured in the Joule Thief circuit as the Q factor.
the Q of the circuit = 1/R [(sqrt)L/C]

When Q is low, the circuit is "damped", and losses are heavy.
When Q is high, the circuit is "underdamped" and can oscillate,
 but there are inductive losses on the magnetic side.

When all components of the circuit are operating at a resonance
 that is also a resonant node of each components SRF
losses are minimized.



Using Kirchhoff's Voltage Law (Vr + Vl +Vc = V(t)): we can reduce the attenuation equation to a value ~ =
R/2L
(I know I said I would suspend Ohm's law, and Kirchhoff is basically the same idea, but this is necessary here)

Therefore, the 2 part equation, for the JT circuit is represented as
a=R/2L
and
Wo= 1/ [(sqrt)LC]

The proportionality between these two factors represents the Damping Factor.
And this can be taken as : 
Damping Factor = (R/2)[(sqrt)C/L]

Therfore, to determine Resonant Frequency, we are left with a Complex Frequency response (s),
part is the Natural Frequency, and the other part is the attenuation.
when s=jW ; where j is the imaginary part of the derivative -- the circuit assumes a sinusoidal steady state.

(peak) Voltage and current levels of the resonant waveform are defined by the relationship:
V(s)=I(s)(R+ L(s) + 1/C(s))

Admittance (Y) = 1/Impedance (Z) (inversely proportional)
Admittance Y(s) = I(s)/V(s) or s/L[s^2+(R/L)s +1/LC]

Now, looking ONLY at current, we find there is a Peak value of the function I(jW)
where (Wo) is also the natural resonant frequency.  Wo = 1/[(sqrt)LC]
It is important to note here, the peak value for Voltage; V(jW) derives a different frequency.

solving for Impedance with respect to frequency we find that:
Z = jWL + 1/jWC + R
By this analysis, we see that at the natural frequency; Wo=1/[(sqrt)LC]
Electrical Impedance peaks at a maximum.
However, Magnetic Reluctance (through the ferrite) at this frequency is NOT at a minimum.
Thus at Wo = 1/[(sqrt)LC], losses approach a peak. (not the maximum configuration, but quite high)


When the complex frequency is taken to be the resonant frequency of the circuit,
and this frequency is also a resonant node of the SRF of all components, such that s=jw
(making the assumption that the base voltage at this frequency is within the linear mode of the transistor)
we find peak (not max peak) amplitudes in both the current, and voltage within the frequency domain.
This represents a condition of maximum power transfer from the battery to the inductor, in a steady-state sinusoidal wave.

the resonant frequency of the feedback loop:
this is the current path through the resistor and coil presenting a reflection at the B-E junction of the transistor.
is defined as:

Wo = (sqrt)[1/LC - (R/L)^2] - note that the resistance value (R) is different from the resistance through the primary current path.

there is a 3rd current path in some configurations, that includes a factor of the batteries internal resistance,
I will not get into much more detail on that particular,
 as it can be represented as a loss constant pertaining to the battery.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


**puts up the wet floor sign**

Wow, that is a lot more about this circuit than I even knew I did not know.  Thanks.

MH:

I always thought the JT was a tank circuit as I have always tuned mine to either the brightest light, or the lowest mA draw...these were never at the same resistance.  I thought, as Brad and others have said, that a coil has capacitance?  I have several JT's here that I can cut the input power to and the leds will continue to glow for more than a few seconds...not as bright as when the power was on but, certainly bright enough to see clearly so, that tells me the energy had to be "stored" somewhere right?  I had no other caps in the circuits which I am describing.  I always "assumed" that the stored energy was in the inductor and, if a device can store energy than it has capacitance right?

Those that know me know I am no electronics wiz by any means.  I have played and experimented with many variants of these circuits for about 7 years or so now, and I too am convinced that even the most basic JT has capacitance.

Am I wrong here?

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 14, 2016, 09:34:36 PM
Smoky2:

Quote
@ MH - I'm glad you learned how to use Google to help you learn things.

Your sarcasm is overwhelming.  There are probably about 20 instances in this discussion where I have pointed out things where you were wrong.  You conveniently ignored all of them.  You can hone your own Google skills right there.

You gave us a big discussion where you invoked damping and the s-plane and got into complex impedances and it all came down to this:

<<< Wo = (sqrt)[1/LC - (R/L)^2] - note that the resistance value (R) is different from the resistance through the primary current path.  >>>

That may or may not be right, I suppose that I could search on it.  I am not going to try to check what you did because I would have to relearn a lot of stuff to do it.  What you are saying may be credible, someone like Verpies would be the one to make that call.

However, what you have not done is this:

1.  Shown how a Joule Thief resonates as some kind of RLC circuit
2.  Shown the actual circuit and/or the equivalent circuit
3.  Shown the timing for the circuit
4.  Several times I have gone over how a Joule Thief is based around two L/R time constants and a switching circuit for the transistor with positive feedback and you have ignored that fact

It's all just talk with no substance to back it up.  What I have said to you is that for a RLC circuit with low resistance then the resistance doesn't factor into the resonant frequency.  That applies to series and parallel RLC circuits.  I was treating that as a separate discussion from a Joule Thief because a Joule Thief is not either type of RLC circuit and it does not resonate.

So if you want to actually show how a Joule Thief is an RLC circuit and resonates then by all means please do.  Because right now it's just a bunch of talk.  For example, you claim that the transistor is operating in its linear region when in a standard Joule Thief the transistor switches ON and OFF.  Like I said before, if you are talking about a hacked Joule Thief acting as an oscillator then it is not a Joule Thief anymore.

So you need to put some substance to what you are saying.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 14, 2016, 09:53:37 PM
Wow, that is a lot more about this circuit than I even knew I did not know.  Thanks.

MH:

I always thought the JT was a tank circuit as I have always tuned mine to either the brightest light, or the lowest mA draw...these were never at the same resistance.  I thought, as Brad and others have said, that a coil has capacitance?  I have several JT's here that I can cut the input power to and the leds will continue to glow for more than a few seconds...not as bright as when the power was on but, certainly bright enough to see clearly so, that tells me the energy had to be "stored" somewhere right?  I had no other caps in the circuits which I am describing.  I always "assumed" that the stored energy was in the inductor and, if a device can store energy than it has capacitance right?

Those that know me know I am no electronics wiz by any means.  I have played and experimented with many variants of these circuits for about 7 years or so now, and I too am convinced that even the most basic JT has capacitance.

Am I wrong here?

Bill

Do you remember about six or seven years ago when people played with car ignition coils and hooked them up backwards so the hot lead from the ignition coil was connected to the earth ground and the ground lead of the ignition coil was connected to the electrical ground of the circuit under test?  Typically the circuit was a gutted CFL driver circuit powered by a battery if I remember correctly.  The net result was the entire setup was bouncing up and down at a fairly high potential with respect to the earth ground potential.  You could touch it anywhere with a neon and the neon would light up.  People would say that was "radiant energy."  More importantly, people would make a connection from the circuit to the earth ground with a wire and observe the CFL get brighter.  They would say, "Oh, power is coming up from the earth ground."  For about two years afterward people would be saying, "power is coming up from the ground."

The "radiant energy" and the "power coming up from the ground" were complete nonsense.  A similar "cult of nonsense" is clearly happening around a Joule Thief operating in its standard mode.

A Joule Thief operating as a Joule Thief normally operates is not a tank circuit.  It doesn't matter that the coil has a capacitance, any coil first and foremost acts like a coil and in a regular Joule Thief the coil acts like a coil.  You note that business is somewhat related to the "cult of a self-resonant coil" also.

There is a good chance that your Joule Thief LEDs glowed for a few seconds after you cut the power because of the stray capacitance in between the two battery leads.  That acted like a small capacitor charged to the battery voltage.  I can't say anything beyond that.  All of the experimenters with the new generation of cheap DSOs are in a great position to look into things like that because they can capture the waveforms.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 14, 2016, 11:25:26 PM
Here is the first clip that I linked to that explains how a Joule Thief works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg)

Here is another clip doing the same:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddzwgxe4Q9o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddzwgxe4Q9o)

Here is another clip that is very simplified and does not discuss the timing issues or the transformer action, but it does have a scope waveform which I captured:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQzA6EwoPlk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQzA6EwoPlk)

What all three clips have in common is that they explain how a Joule Thief is a pulse circuit.  There is no mention of an RLC circuit or resonance.

Look at the captured scope waveform for the LED and for the transistor base input.  That is the waveform of a pulse switching circuit, not a resonant circuit.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 15, 2016, 12:58:41 AM
Nope, you aren't going to actually show how a Joule Thief is an RLC circuit and show how it operates as an RLC circuit because you can't.  You can't sketch out the circuit or sketch out timing diagrams to back up what you are claiming.  What you are doing is making up a word salad.




MileHigh

What is a JT to you MH? .Do you know why it is called a JT ?.
It was called a joule thief because it can drain a lot of the remaining energy(joules) from a battery that would otherwise be considered dead. There are many variations to the circuit that can achieve this,and not 1 circuit alone can be considered to be !the! joule thief circuit. You have posted the most common and simple circuit that you claim to be !the! JT circuit. You have posted the effect based around a circuit,in stead of a circuit based around an effect. This is like presenting a vehicle that suits tires,in stead of tires that suit the vehicle.

Quote
Also, the Joule Thief will not work as a Joule Thief, if it woks at all, without the inductive coupling between the two windings.  Saying it works because of "the C value of the transistor" is just more word salad.

Below is a scope shot of a joule thief working the way you say it will not. The scope is directly across the emitter/collector junction,and the coil that triggers the transistor is inside an old PM DC motor housing,where the coil is placed between the two large magnets within that housing,and eliminates any inductive coupling between the two windings. The supply voltage to the circuit is 1.02 volts,and yet the LED lights quite nicely ;)

Quote
The fundamental timing and operation of a Joule Thief is based on L/R time constants and there is no resonance at play at all


Please see second scope shot showing the magnetic field of the driven coil by way of a sniffer coil.


-
Quote
the Joule Thief timing and operation is governed by the interaction between inductance and resistance and not capacitance.

It would seem that my JT dose not wish to comply to your rules MH.

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 01:29:09 AM
Brad:

Quote
There are many variations to the circuit that can achieve this,and not 1 circuit alone can be considered to be !the! joule thief circuit. You have posted the most common and simple circuit that you claim to be !the! JT circuit. You have posted the effect based around a circuit,in stead of a circuit based around an effect. This is like presenting a vehicle that suits tires,in stead of tires that suit the vehicle.

With that kind of logic I can throw spaghetti against the wall and claim it is a Joule Thief also.  Sorry, but you are not going to make up the rules as you go along to suit your fancy and make everything you say "right."  Everybody knows what a Joule Thief circuit is.  If you have another circuit that you claim does what a Joule Thief does, then show it.

Quote
Below is a scope shot of a joule thief working the way you say it will not. The scope is directly across the emitter/collector junction,and the coil that triggers the transistor is inside an old PM DC motor housing,where the coil is placed between the two large magnets within that housing,and eliminates any inductive coupling between the two windings. The supply voltage to the circuit is 1.02 volts,and yet the LED lights quite nicely

No schematic, no explanation, no timing, no nothing.  Just a bunch of squiggly lines on a scope display that you claim is a "Joule Thief" to suit your fancy.

"The coil is placed between the two large magnets within that housing,and eliminates any inductive coupling between the two windings."   That's just more word salad.  You seemingly just made up a "rule" that a coil placed between two magnets will eliminate any inductive coupling between the two windings of the coil.  It's not true and you are right back at square one showing that you haven't grasped one of the most basic concepts in electronics.  Just make it all up as you go along to suit your fancy and please yourself.  Who cares about those pesky details.

Quote
Please see second scope shot showing the magnetic field of the driven coil by way of a sniffer coil.

All that I see is a squiggly line.  It could be a dial tone from a phone for all I know.

If you can't present substantive data to make your point, then it's all just a mushy word salad that means nothing.  Take a look at some of Itsu's clips and postings for his presentation style and reporting of his results and contrast that with what you are doing.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 15, 2016, 03:34:21 AM
Brad:

With that kind of logic I can throw spaghetti against the wall and claim it is a Joule Thief also.  Sorry, but you are not going to make up the rules as you go along to suit your fancy and make everything you say "right."  Everybody knows what a Joule Thief circuit is.  If you have another circuit that you claim does what a Joule Thief does, then show it.

No schematic, no explanation, no timing, no nothing.  Just a bunch of squiggly lines on a scope display that you claim is a "Joule Thief" to suit your fancy.



All that I see is a squiggly line.  It could be a dial tone from a phone for all I know.

If you can't present substantive data to make your point, then it's all just a mushy word salad that means nothing.  Take a look at some of Itsu's clips and postings for his presentation style and reporting of his results and contrast that with what you are doing.

MileHigh

Quote
"The coil is placed between the two large magnets within that housing,and eliminates any inductive coupling between the two windings."   That's just more word salad.  You seemingly just made up a "rule" that a coil placed between two magnets will eliminate any inductive coupling between the two windings of the coil.  It's not true and you are right back at square one showing that you haven't grasped one of the most basic concepts in electronics.  Just make it all up as you go along to suit your fancy and please yourself.  Who cares about those pesky details.

No MH. Here is the difference between bench time and book time--i work on the bench,and you work from the books.

Below is 3 circuit's,and all are LRC circuits. If there was no C involved,then the circuits would not work. The two coils are separate coils MH,and you can place either of the coils where ever you want-even having each coil in there own faraday cage,the circuit will still oscillate,although there is no inductive coupling between L1 and L2. The circuits work due to the miller capacitance effect.

So now we know that the JT circuit is indeed a RLC circuit. You obviously do not do your home work MH,as many people have replicated these circuit's,and also shown that there is no inductive coupling required between L1 and L2 for the circuit to work as a joule thief.

I ask you again MH-->do you know what a JT is ?.

Quote wikipedia
A joule thief is a minimalist Armstrong[1] self-oscillating voltage booster that is small, low-cost, and easy to build, typically used for driving light loads.

It can use nearly all of the energy in a single-cell electric battery, even far below the voltage where other circuits consider the battery fully discharged (or "dead"); hence the name, which suggests the notion that the circuit is stealing energy or "joules" from the source. The term is a pun on the expression "jewel thief": one who steals jewelry or gemstones.

The circuit is a variant of the blocking oscillator that forms an unregulated voltage boost converter. The output voltage is increased at the expense of higher current draw on the input, but the integrated (average) current of the output is lowered and brightness of a luminescence decreased.

So you see MH,the joule thief is not one single circuit,it is a name used to describe an effect,and as i said,there are many different types of circuits that can achieve this effect.

So i am not making my own rules MH,i am stating fact's-unlike your self,that insists that a JT is 1 particular circuit-->which it is not.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 15, 2016, 04:00:48 AM
After looking around at how most JTs are made, I wound a core with 8 strand twisted for the driven winding and 4 strand for the trigger winding. Lasersaber uses Litz in his latest gidgets.  Both are 29 turns each. The 8 strand winding will be used as is for the first tryouts, then will be spilt into 2 pairs of 4 strands and connected bifi to increase capacitance to see what resonant freq can be had there.

Should have it up n running in a bit.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 15, 2016, 04:51:31 AM
After looking around at how most JTs are made, I wound a core with 8 strand twisted for the driven winding and 4 strand for the trigger winding. Lasersaber uses Litz in his latest gidgets.  Both are 29 turns each. The 8 strand winding will be used as is for the first tryouts, then will be spilt into 2 pairs of 4 strands and connected bifi to increase capacitance to see what resonant freq can be had there.

Should have it up n running in a bit.

Mags
I will throw a cool joule circuit together as well. It will be interesting to see the difference in wave forms.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: hoptoad on February 15, 2016, 06:27:51 AM
What is a JT to you MH? .Do you know why it is called a JT ?.
It was called a joule thief because it can drain a lot of the remaining energy(joules) from a battery that would otherwise be considered dead. There are many variations to the circuit that can achieve this,and not 1 circuit alone can be considered to be !the! joule thief circuit. You have posted the most common and simple circuit that you claim to be !the! JT circuit. You have posted the effect based around a circuit,in stead of a circuit based around an effect. This is like presenting a vehicle that suits tires,in stead of tires that suit the vehicle.
....snip
Brad
Having built many a JT over the years, I can say that with the right , high gain, low powered transistor, you don't even need a base connection to the transistor, or even two coils, nor even a single resistor. You can get away with a single collector coil, transistor, led, battery and a few wires to connect them all up.

Some transistors will self oscillate when the base is open circuit right at power switch on. Others just need a quick touch of the finger to the base to get them going after power switch on. Simple bi-polar, high hFe transistors work well in this open base mode of operation.

Most mosfets don't work so well in this configuration, often due to latching when the gate is left 'floating' without a pull down resistor.
So I definitely agree Tinman, JT's come in all manner of configurations, some more efficient than others, but all doing the same thing.

There is no singular form of JT, but there are many different oscillator configurations that produce the same desired outcome of running a led on voltage sources that are below the led voltage threshold. Or using vernacular I know your familiar with, " they'll run on the sniff of an oily rag".

I've found simple blocking oscillators using off the shelf components to be the easiest to build, and they exhibit a reasonable stability and robustness over a range of voltage sources.

Cheers
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 15, 2016, 07:28:50 AM
Ok. She is working. No issues.  Started with a 1k resistor then put in a 1k 10turn variable with a 100ohm res as a minimum.

The first scope shot is of the led across the transistor and the second is the led across the coil winding.  The pk-pk is greater with the led across the coil and the freq increased also, similar to the circuit sim had shown.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 15, 2016, 07:33:12 AM
The battery is down but not dead dead. 1.2v

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2016, 07:37:57 AM
@MH

it is obvious by the waveforms you keep presenting, that you have not paid attention to a single thing I posted over the past few days.
 None of these waveforms are either in resonance nor in the linear mode of operation of the transistor.

You can continue to show NON resonant JT circuits in operation, and proclaim my analysis of the circuit to be invalid.
yet, in doing so, you negate the prerequisites that are placed on said resonance.

thus, your actions are similar to that of a Diver, proclaiming that because of the Human Physiology, man can only hold his breath under water for roughly 4-5 minutes.
When the reality of the situation is that Pearl Divers in Indonesia use a technique known as "static apnea" to hold their breath for 15-20 minutes.

Yet, here you are, stating that Static Apnea is not a relevant factor, and that it cannot help you hold your breath longer.

This is exactly what you are doing with resonance, as it pertains to the Joule Thief.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your reasons for doing so (although irrelevant) seem to indicate one of two scenerios.
either 1) You acknowldege the facts i have presented in the last few pages, and still insist in refuting them insensibly.
or
2) (which it sounds like you have admited at least twice) You do not understand that which you are discussing.
    and as such, your arguments are insensible, and do not apply to the actual reality of the circuit.

The videos which you linked are created and described by individuals that are not using the circuit in resonance,
nor are they accurately describing that which they observe. this is evident by use of the equations i have previously posted.
Had these individuals compared their speculative analysis to the electrical engineering mathematics of the circuit,
They themselves would have seen the err in their description of the circuits behavior.

It is good practice to limit your variables, when performing an experiment.
But one must be certain that altering these variable values, they are not changing other conditions of the system.
And if they ARE - this should be taken into consideration.

This was not done in the experiments you have posted.

I have met 3 of your four requirements of me, in my previous posts.
Since you claim that I have NOT, this to me means that you didn't really read what I posted or followed the links to the information provided.

the 4th requirement, you yourself have violated, stating that resistance is not an important factor.
Whereas, I have appropriately described every portion of this circuit (including the feedback loop which was not even my original intention).

To "show you" a JT in resonance, is pointless. You can tell by the waveforms that have been posted by other users, which ones are operating either in linear mode (by the sinosoidality of the waveform) and in resonance (by comparison of the peak amplitudes) or both.

If I were to show you any random variation of the Joule Thief, operating in linear mode, and at a frequency node coherent ot the SRF of the components involved, This scope shot would only apply to that particular JT circuit.
By adjusting the base resistor to bring the circuit out of resonance, and showing a scope image of the same circuit operating
"less efficiently", this woulod prove nothing to you. would it?
My guess is that you would still find some illogical argument to place on the images presented.

At this point in time, I am not certain of your intentions.

If you don't understand, then let it be.

If you DO understand, and not agree - then present that in a logical coherent manner.

If you don't understand, but still do not agree, then state that.
 But do not pretend your knowledge set to be the end all say all.

You have already admitted to not fully grasping all of the concepts I have presented.
So why then, do you insist that your perspective is somehow more accurate than what I have shown here?

I will cease discussion on this point for some time, to allow the experimenters to absorb the information I have presented.
Their results will manifest themselves accordingly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To this date, i have only observed two resonant JT circuits in operation posted on this forum.
One was created by BruceTPU
the other was done by PirateBill, using an earth battery and a high-voltage CFL. ( i think it was the Fuji circuit?)
It was evident by the posted waveform, that the JT was both in linear mode, and at a resonant node.

This was reflected by his measurements. Though i do not believe he knew he was at a resonant node.
His analysis was based on current draw vs luminescence, and while it represents the same scenerio,
the perspective may lead one to miss the full scope of the occurance.








Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 15, 2016, 08:10:35 AM
Been trying things. Worked my way to a 10k pot and as I went, kept adding 10k resistors. The pk-pk across the led went down to near 5v along the way but once I got around 40kohm the pk-pk went up and at near 70kohm to 6.3 pk-pk. Led output is down from posted results. So Ill keep on adding resistance to see if the pk-pk increases. Got up to 50kz so far.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 08:29:32 AM
Smoky2:

That was a lot of talk including some straw man talk.

I am sure that you have read and understood what I have repeatedly said:   There is a Joule Thief running in standard mode and there may indeed be something akin to a Joule Thief circuit running as an oscillator in some kind of resonant mode.

All that I have asked you to do is make your case and describe how the device is resonating and show something tangible.  I have said to you repeatedly that I seriously doubt that any oscillation would be at the self-resonant frequency of the main coil of the Joule Thief itself.

I have simply asked you repeatedly to make your case with something tangible and instead you play the "good shepherd" "preaching to the flock" about the "resonance that 'they' don't want you to learn about."

What I am saying to you is that attitude is simply silly.  If you have some data on turning a Joule Thief-type circuit into an oscillator then just share it and lay your cards on the table.

Building a Joule Thief and the playing with it until you get to the point were it ceases to operate as a switching circuit and instead starts to operate as an oscillator is interesting but absolutely not remarkable in any way, shape, or form whatsoever.  What would be interesting would be for you to illustrate that and explain the mechanism for that without any "hocus pocus resonance messiah talk."  Do you get the point I am trying to make to you?  You talk about something so completely unremarkable and try to pitch it as something remarkable.

If you want to show a circuit that oscillates built around a single transistor and a few other passive components - GREAT, share your data.   Will such a circuit still be able to draw power from a battery running at a very low voltage and give you more light output bang for your power buck?  The answer to that in undetermined and the ball would be in your court to show data and explain how that could be done.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 08:41:48 AM
Magluvin:

Great work and you are doing it right.  Exercising the circuit and seeing what it can do helps others.  So far your waveforms show a standard Joule Thief operating in standard switching mode.

I attached a standard Joule Thief schematic showing two test points that I suggest you connect to your scope channels.  Both test points would be relative to the battery ground.  One is across the LED and the other is at the input side of the base resistor.  You notice that the two test points are for the bottom contacts of the Joule Thief transformer.   So by viewing the two test points you see all of the "action" around the transformer.  Notice that you can also easily derive the current going into the base input of the transistor.  It's just the TP1 potential minus the transistor Base-Emitter forward drop (about 0.7 volts?) divided by the value of the base resistor.  So that allows you to "see" the base current.

When the transistor is switched ON, you know there is a ramp up in the current through the main coil.  Likewise when the transistor switches OFF, you know that there is a quicker ramp down in the current through the coil as the stored energy in the core does a "burn" through the LED and it is also helped along by the supply battery supplying some energy (for a standard Joule Thief).  By looking at TP1 you can make inferences about the LED current also.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 08:56:02 AM
Brad:

Quote
So you see MH,the joule thief is not one single circuit,it is a name used to describe an effect,and as i said,there are many different types of circuits that can achieve this effect.

You are doing nothing more than playing a bait and switch game again.  It's very frustrating.

I showed you a standard Joule Thief circuit and you said, "That's an RLC circuit."  That's wrong - it's not an RLC circuit.

Now you are pulling off the switch and saying, "Oh no, there are many Joule Thief type circuits and I am talking about other circuits."

The answer to that is no - no bait and switch nonsense is acceptable.

Nor am I convinced that the other circuits will do what you are saying.  If you want to make a case and demonstrate what you are saying then fine, but throwing words at the issue like you are throwing spaghetti against the wall is not going to work and the spaghetti is not sticking.  Electronics simply doesn't work like that and you actually have to put some substance behind what you are saying.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2016, 08:57:20 AM
We have heard MileHigh's objection.  It will be what it is.

Does anyone else disagree with what I have presented in this thread?

And if so, please enlighten me.
I would love to hear other perspectives concerning the nature of this technology.

I have no problems admitting if I am wrong, as I have been forced to do so in the past.
I can't claim to know everything about everything,
in fact im not sure there is "anything" I truly know "everything" about. (yet?)

I am always open to learning new things.
That being said, after over 10 years of experimentation with this type of circuit*, I feel that I am competent enough to engage in analytical discussion of its' nature.
This was not always the case, in the beginning this was a new and strange phenomena. (Armstrong/Steven Mark)
then the JT came along and that had its' own peculiarities. (ULV - ultra-low-voltage modes of operation)

Seeing that (from my perspective) the circuits are analogous,
it was instinctive nature to apply the concepts given to us by Armstrong,
to all circuits that are Armstrong analogies.
[* - I consider all Armstrong analogies to be variations of the Armstrong Oscillator.]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't really want to get into this part of the topic discussion, because of the implications involved......
But since I already (oops) opened Pandora's box, im sure that as soon as people start to "get it", they will ask me these questions concerning the feedback loop.

So, in accordance to Armstrongs equations, the feedback loop, (when phased (reflectively) to precisely 180-degrees from the resonance, and with appropriate capacitance and impedance)
is reversed in phase, so that it cycles back into the loop IN PHASE!!!!! -- this is an advanced concept in resonant circuits.
And the positive feedback represented by the feedback loop is in addition to the constructive interference effects of an SRF resonant node.
This phase reversal effect was commented on by another user above,
and while this was only the effect of the particular methodology of measurement, it shows the effect quite clearly.

If you do not understand the basics, as presented in the past few pages, please go back and learn that before attempting to understand what I just stated.

What we have at this stage, is a JT operating at maximum efficiency, with a positive feedback.

For positive feedback to be effective, its' magnitude must be overcome circuit losses.

Since feedback, (of any resonant form), is of lower amplitude than the original signal,
In order for this to cause constructive interference, the system losses must be less than the difference between the two.

The frequency at which this occurs is a factor of the capacitance of the Non-Inductor part of the circuit.
 This includes a factor of the battery, the transistor, the resistor as well as the diode(if used).
This is separate from the resonant frequency of the feedback loop as mathematically defined in the previously posted equations.

All these factors must be coordinated to achieve "total circuit resonance".

This YouTube user gives a very well done explanation of this, in the earlier part of this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5StwZCeNzVU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5StwZCeNzVU)
I believe this individual to be at a more advanced level than myself. Which has made his work of interest to me, for no other reason than that...
[He is able to apply discrete functions of a crystalline structure, while maintaining coherency of the resonant frequency.
That is just mindboggling if you ask me...., We didn't even get that deep in Computer Engineering classes]

Although the oscillator used in his Armstrong Circuit is a piezoelectric quartz oscillator, the concepts apply exactly the same.
(transistors are comprised of the same silicone element, the primary difference being the atomic resistance across the oxygen bonds, which is negligible in this application)
Also, the laws of induction apply (within proportion to particular materials constants) to all oscillators, not just quartz.

The pertinent information is near the front part of the first half of the video.
He talks about a lot more than what I reference here, because he is building an amplifier,
but if you can keep up, there is a lot of good information to be watched there.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most people that take a glimpse of an overview of Edwin Armstrong, and a general sysnapsis of his oscillators:
say one common thing -  "If this is so great, why don't we still us it?"

Because of this, i set myself upon a quest to answer THAT question.
The answers to this, are what led me to studying what Armstrong had to say.
This is actually more intriguing than most other energy technology suppression events throughout history.
Simply because it occured at a time when such supression was not common, and the tactics of suppression applied today had not yet been developed.
In other words "it was obvious", and imbedded in the historical record of Radio.

The efforts to suppress Edwin Armstrong's technology became the foundation for Non-Resonant propaganda in electronics theory.

This sounds like a ridiculous conspiracy theory, but look it up.
It actually Happened!

He was building radios with a vacuum triode that powered themselves, AND caused great interference with transmitters, receivers, and transceivers for MILES around!!!!

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain......



 
 





 


Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 09:40:59 AM
Smoky2:

There is a great PBS documentary about Edwin Armstrong and the battles he fought in the early days of radio called "Empire of the Air."

http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/empire/sketches/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238199/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_1

He invented a lot of great radio circuits and he also invented FM radio which was an amazing accomplishment.  It's very sad that he got squeezed out and obsessed on his battles and eventually took his own life.

But there is no "suppression" or "Non-Resonant propaganda" in the electronics industry.  You are back in "good shepherd" mode.  He didn't build radios with vacuum triodes that "powered themselves."

If you are really interested in old radio circuits and perhaps even want to talk to a serious expert in all of this stuff, check out this guy's YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/user/AllAmericanFiveRadio

The guy is a radio genius and can fix all radios going all the way back to the 1910s.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 15, 2016, 09:49:47 AM
Magluvin:

Great work and you are doing it right.  Exercising the circuit and seeing what it can do helps others.  So far your waveforms show a standard Joule Thief operating in standard switching mode.

I attached a standard Joule Thief schematic showing two test points that I suggest you connect to your scope channels.  Both test points would be relative to the battery ground.  One is across the LED and the other is at the input side of the base resistor.  You notice that the two test points are for the bottom contacts of the Joule Thief transformer.   So by viewing the two test points you see all of the "action" around the transformer.  Notice that you can also easily derive the current going into the base input of the transistor.  It's just the TP1 potential minus the transistor Base-Emitter forward drop (about 0.7 volts?) divided by the value of the base resistor.  So that allows you to "see" the base current.

When the transistor is switched ON, you know there is a ramp up in the current through the main coil.  Likewise when the transistor switches OFF, you know that there is a quicker ramp down in the current through the coil as the stored energy in the core does a "burn" through the LED and it is also helped along by the supply battery supplying some energy (for a standard Joule Thief).  By looking at TP1 you can make inferences about the LED current also.

MileHigh

Ok. Ill do that up tomorrow. Putting a sub box together for a GTI. Allnighter. 

Letting the JT run down the battery.  I left it at around 1.6khz  its down to 1.5khz now. the batt started at 1.2v. After posting the pics I did the increases of resistance then set it back and let it run. The batt is down to .7v already.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 15, 2016, 09:57:31 AM
Brad:

You are doing nothing more than playing a bait and switch game again.  It's very frustrating.

I showed you a standard Joule Thief circuit and you said, "That's an RLC circuit."  That's wrong - it's not an RLC circuit.

Now you are pulling off the switch and saying, "Oh no, there are many Joule Thief type circuits and I am talking about other circuits."

The answer to that is no - no bait and switch nonsense is acceptable.

Nor am I convinced that the other circuits will do what you are saying.  If you want to make a case and demonstrate what you are saying then fine, but throwing words at the issue like you are throwing spaghetti against the wall is not going to work and the spaghetti is not sticking.  Electronics simply doesn't work like that and you actually have to put some substance behind what you are saying.

MileHigh


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mbp1iuB7as

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13IBcCRNF9g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPHfqQFCNtw
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 10:01:44 AM
The Google search engine built into this web site works quite well.  I pulled up an old posting I made with my good old mechanical analogy for a Joule Thief.  Many people are aware that a perfect mechanical analogy for an inductor is a flywheel.  So, starting with a flywheel I "constructed" a mechanical analogy for a Joule Thief as an exercise bike:

<<<
Imagine you go to the gym and you find an old-style exercise bicycle.  The type with a seat and pedals and a chain link to a big flywheel, like a regular bicycle.  There is a friction belt that goes around the circumference of the flywheel.  You set the tension on the friction belt to adjust the difficulty level.

Imagine the belt is completely loose.  You pedal for a few seconds and get the flywheel spinning and then you stop pedaling.  Then you add tension to the belt and the flywheel spins down and stops.  Then you loosen the belt and repeat the whole process all over again.

Even when you are completely exhausted, it's still possible for you to pedal and get the flywheel spinning if you pedal slowly and take your time to build up the speed.  Don't forget that the friction strap is loose when you pedal.

That's a Joule Thief.  You are the battery.  The flywheel is the coil.  The friction belt is the LED.

The torque that you put on the flywheel from pedaling is the battery voltage.  The torque that the flywheel puts on the belt during the braking is the coil voltage when it's de-energizing.  The rotational speed of the flywheel is the current through the coil.
>>>

So that might be mysterious for some or make perfect sense for others.   Just about anything that you can do with a coil with respect to energy dynamics and circuit behaviour can be replicated and simulated in the mechanical world with a flywheel.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2016, 10:08:36 AM
The Google search engine built into this web site works quite well.  I pulled up an old posting I made with my good old mechanical analogy for a Joule Thief.  Many people are aware that a perfect mechanical analogy for an inductor is a flywheel.  So, starting with a flywheel I "constructed" a mechanical analogy for a Joule Thief as an exercise bike:

<<<
Imagine you go to the gym and you find an old-style exercise bicycle.  The type with a seat and pedals and a chain link to a big flywheel, like a regular bicycle.  There is a friction belt that goes around the circumference of the flywheel.  You set the tension on the friction belt to adjust the difficulty level.

Imagine the belt is completely loose.  You pedal for a few seconds and get the flywheel spinning and then you stop pedaling.  Then you add tension to the belt and the flywheel spins down and stops.  Then you loosen the belt and repeat the whole process all over again.

Even when you are completely exhausted, it's still possible for you to pedal and get the flywheel spinning if you pedal slowly and take your time to build up the speed.  Don't forget that the friction strap is loose when you pedal.

That's a Joule Thief.  You are the battery.  The flywheel is the coil.  The friction belt is the LED.

The torque that you put on the flywheel from pedaling is the battery voltage.  The torque that the flywheel puts on the belt during the braking is the coil voltage when it's de-energizing.  The rotational speed of the flywheel is the current through the coil.
>>>

So that might be mysterious for some or make perfect sense for others.   Just about anything that you can do with a coil with respect to energy dynamics and circuit behaviour can be replicated and simulated in the mechanical world with a flywheel.

MileHigh

Correction

the proper physical analogy to this circuit is a weight on a spring.
when dropped the weight oscillates exactly like the RLC

the inductor acts like a gravity well

resistance is analogous to friction in this case.
The difference is, unlike reluctance, the gravitational gradient is not affected by a change in frequency.
(that is to say at velocities that are far below relativistic terms)

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 15, 2016, 11:14:57 AM
Brad:

You are doing nothing more than playing a bait and switch game again.  It's very frustrating.

I showed you a standard Joule Thief circuit and you said, "That's an RLC circuit."  That's wrong - it's not an RLC circuit.

Now you are pulling off the switch and saying, "Oh no, there are many Joule Thief type circuits and I am talking about other circuits."

The answer to that is no - no bait and switch nonsense is acceptable.

Nor am I convinced that the other circuits will do what you are saying.  If you want to make a case and demonstrate what you are saying then fine, but throwing words at the issue like you are throwing spaghetti against the wall is not going to work and the spaghetti is not sticking.  Electronics simply doesn't work like that and you actually have to put some substance behind what you are saying.

MileHigh

Is the below not !your! JT circuit MH?.
It works quite fine without any inductive coupling between the two coils.
How dose it do this without the C in the LRC circuit MH ?.

Like i said--there is not just one JT circuit,and you clearly stated that the JT circuit is an LR circuit only-long before you posted a diagram of 1 JT circuit. But even that circuit you posted !is! an LRC circuit-otherwise the circuit below would not oscillate.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=joule+thief+circuits&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=634&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1rLj5xPnKAhXMFZQKHbdhDSQQsAQIJA

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 03:25:57 PM
Correction

the proper physical analogy to this circuit is a weight on a spring.
when dropped the weight oscillates exactly like the RLC

the inductor acts like a gravity well

resistance is analogous to friction in this case.
The difference is, unlike reluctance, the gravitational gradient is not affected by a change in frequency.
(that is to say at velocities that are far below relativistic terms)

Here is the "big surprise":  I described a Joule Thief in its normal operating mode as a pulse circuit.  Note I described the energy dynamics only and I did not make any reference to a timing system.   An exhausted peddler on a exercise bicycle can still muster up enough energy to make the flywheel spin because the belt providing resistance setting is slack.  That is analogous to a nearly dead battery that can still get current to flow through the coil.  It's all about the basic energy dynamics taking place in a Joule Thief:  All that a Joule Thief does is energize an inductor and then releases that stored inductor energy into an LED load.  Since a discharging inductor is a current source it can discharge just as easily through 10 LEDs in series as a single LED.

When are you going to get over this resonance fetish?  It's like trying to jam a square peg into a round hole with you.

As far as your analogy goes, you don't have a sample electrical circuit to base it on so that's not too good.  You have yet to show any Joule Thief operating in "resonance" - it's all just talk and talk is cheap.

The inductor acts like a gravity well?  Are you referring to the spring perhaps in an oblique way?  Nor do you have an equivalent to a battery source in your analogy.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 04:20:10 PM
Is the below not !your! JT circuit MH?.
It works quite fine without any inductive coupling between the two coils.
How dose it do this without the C in the LRC circuit MH ?.

Like i said--there is not just one JT circuit,and you clearly stated that the JT circuit is an LR circuit only-long before you posted a diagram of 1 JT circuit. But even that circuit you posted !is! an LRC circuit-otherwise the circuit below would not oscillate.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=joule+thief+circuits&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=634&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1rLj5xPnKAhXMFZQKHbdhDSQQsAQIJA (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=joule+thief+circuits&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=634&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1rLj5xPnKAhXMFZQKHbdhDSQQsAQIJA)

Brad

No, they are not Joule Thief circuits because it looks almost certain that they will not have the same performance as a Joule Thief when it comes to extracting energy from a nearly dead battery that has a low voltage-high impedance output.

All that you are really doing is baiting and switching yourself in a case like this.  You were playing around with Joule Thief circuits and you stumbled across the "Cool Joule" circuit and decided for yourself that it was a "Joule Thief."  It simply does not work like that.

Lidmotor is a great guy and he replicated your circuit for fun, but made no claims and did no serious investigation into how the circuit actually works.  He simply had fun and did a demo clip only.  The same thing applies to the two other clips, they are just demo clips with zero analysis of the circuit and zero explanation of the operation of the circuit.

Neither did you make any attempt at all to explain how your circuit worked.  That's not electronics Brad, it's just show and tell and don't explain.  As TK said many times and I echoed him, you are not doing an experiment, your are just observing and nothing more than that.

Those circuits that you see in the clips and the circuit schematic that you posted are simple oscillators based on amplification and feedback.  They are basically like having a microphone and a PA system and pointing the microphone at the speakers and getting high-pitched feedback.  The base input of the transistor is like a microphone and the input is being "tickled" by the coil.  Sometimes even thermal noise in the circuit is enough to get the feedback going to start the oscillation.  Since the transistor is firing you take advantage of that to energize an inductor and light an LED.

You guys are blindly saying there is no coupling between one coil and the other coil.  Well, I hate to tell you this but there is some kind of coupling taking place somewhere to get the positive feedback oscillation going.  It could be inductive, it could be capacitive, it could be just from coupling in the local interconnect wires in the immediate vicinity of the transistor.  There is absolutely nothing new and nothing special about an amplification stage (the transistor) spontaneously causing a feedback oscillation.  Among other things, I am pretty sure the gain of the transistor itself will affect the frequency - higher gain, higher frequency.

Perhaps the biggest issue is that you yourself have no clue exactly how and why the circuit is oscillating.  It's not necessarily easy either because sometimes just putting a scope probe on the circuit may stop the oscillation.  This is just a "black box" show and tell and you don't know what's inside the black box.

But going back to the standard Joule Thief, I believe that when the battery is even below the switch-on voltage for the base-emitter diode in the transistor, the Joule Thief can still operate and keep switching on the transistor.  That's because the "primary" side of the transformer can still boost the battery voltage before it gets to the transistor base resistor.  The "Cool Joule" is nothing more than an oscillator that takes advantage of the transistor switching to do the old coil-light-an-LED trick, but there are no extra tricks to keep it running when the battery voltage gets very low.  So it's not a Joule Thief because it does not do anything special to extract energy from a very-low-voltage battery.

Quote
Like i said--there is not just one JT circuit,and you clearly stated that the JT circuit is an LR circuit only-long before you posted a diagram of 1 JT circuit.

You are not going there Brad.  You have been fully aware of what the standard Joule Thief circuit is for years and you are fully aware that that's exactly what I have been talking about.

Quote
But even that circuit you posted !is! an LRC circuit-otherwise the circuit below would not oscillate.

It is absolutely NOT an LRC circuit.  There isn't even a capacitor in the schematic and if hypothetically you could somehow remove all of the stray/parasitic capacitance in the circuit the standard Joule Thief would still operate perfectly.  Time to get real and stop this nonsense talk.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Bob Smith on February 15, 2016, 04:35:50 PM
There seems to be something about resonant oscillation within certain systems that preclude their COP from being accurately analysed with closed system criteria (e.g., in terms of internal losses). Closed system criteria cannot completely account for their performance, which share both closed and open system characteristic behaviors. 
Bob
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 04:49:06 PM
Sorry Bob but "open systems" vs. "closed systems" is really and truly just a meaningless buzz phrase that means nothing.  It's used all the time in free energy pitches by con men.  A circuit on your bench is a "closed system" and what you see is what you get and oscillation does not "accept energy from some place I cannot identify in some form I cannot identify."  It's simply not true.

It's used all the time for coils and I know that many of you believe it.  It's just not true.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: allcanadian on February 15, 2016, 05:05:14 PM
I was watching one of lidmotors video's of tinmans cool joule and this random video showed up on the right...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7SkE5pERtA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7SkE5pERtA). I could not help but think Jeri Ellsworth, a self-taught engineer, is everything our friend Milehigh can never be. She is smart, talented, open minded and most of all...creative.


Magnetic logic gates based on remnant magnetism which everyone has all but ignored...I like it. It would seem this nonsensical same-same BS milehigh preaches is not all the same-same. Imagine if we had many separate cores some partially saturated by an external magnetic field like the Earths which formed multiple logic gates and this intelligent network would only add the Earth remnant field when switched and recycle the set pulse. A travelling magnetic wave manipulating remnant magnetism, adding it, pushing it forward in a coherent way which implies an inherent intelligence in itself.


Intelligence is imagining creative solutions to any problem, stupidity is thinking everything must remain the same-same and there is nothing we can do. I think Jeri Ellsworth is a ray of light compared to the abyss we know as MH, she is everything he can never be...hands on getting shit done, firing up our imagination versus the fucking wet cold blanket effect which seems to follow MH around, lol.

AC






Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 05:17:26 PM
Well that's a bunch of pure BS there AC.  There is too much of a tendency to play the pie-in-the-sky game for ordinary vanilla circuits.  You have to get pretty creative sometimes to get that message through because people have a secret sauce fetish and reality can be a very good thing sometimes.

So kiss my fat behind with your insults.

Quote
if we had many separate cores some partially saturated by an external magnetic field like the Earths which formed multiple logic gates and this intelligent network would only add the Earth remnant field when switched and recycle the set pulse. A travelling magnetic wave manipulating remnant magnetism, adding it, pushing it forward in a coherent way which implies an inherent intelligence in itself.

OMG!  You had secret-sauce-o-gasm!
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 15, 2016, 06:33:05 PM
Was fiddling at lunch here at my shop.  Had an idea to add shorted turns to the transformer  to see what would happen. They are not tight turns. Just a standard alligator jumper lead set.

The battery is down to .48v and still running.  When I went for 1 turn of the alligator clip lead the circuit died.  3 turns was more interesting..

The running freq at .48v is 2.2khz at this time.  When the alligator lead is shorted, 3 turns, the freq jumped to 195khz and very little dimming on the led. :o

Now when I had adjusted the resistor last night to upwards of 80kohm the led was pretty dim. But here with the shorted turns the led is still kickin but at a very high jump in freq. Pretty cool.  Will do more tests on that. More turns and even try some caps on the alligator clips to see how things go.

Dont have time to vid it. Just a couple pics for now.


The scope shot is at 2us compared to the earlier shots at 400us.  Will try stuff later with a fresh battery after this one runs down.

The blue trace is of the batt at .48v.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 15, 2016, 06:43:10 PM
Just quickly went to 6 turns shorted and the freq went up to 495khz and the battery went up to .52v.  ??? ;D

9 turns brings it up to 943khz and batt is bouncing .48 to .52v.

Fun fun fun. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 15, 2016, 06:47:11 PM
Popped in another batt at .9v. 11 turns is at around 641khz.   So with these, from what I see, the freq goes up as the batt dies.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 15, 2016, 06:52:37 PM
Starting to see some ringing on the batt at these freq. The last scope shot you can see it a little in the blue trace.

Gotta go back to work

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: allcanadian on February 15, 2016, 07:13:32 PM
@MH
Quote
OMG!  You had secret-sauce-o-gasm!
lol, that was a pretty creative response... I like it.


I agree we should try to hold to reality however reality is a brain fart. You are an aggregate of 1% matter moving about near the speed of light separated by EM fields. You cannot feel or sense or think anything anymore that a telephone wire can because all our supposed senses travel as electrical signals to the brain. The brain is simply a bunch of specialized cells, atoms and molecules, which coordinate and store these electrical signals we call our mind and memories. As such technically speaking by your own logic... you cannot exist.


I mean if everything is just the same-same thing, an unintelligent soup of atoms and molecules then how do you explain what you see in the mirror each morning?. You have no idea, nowhere to even begin to explain what or why you are and yet my little ramble on remnant magnetism is far fetched?. As such I think your logic is severely flawed, you have absolute proof all is not as it seems and some things can be much more than the same-same simple sum of it parts... you are that proof. Unless of course you deny your own existence in which case I cannot help you, nobody can.


It is strange that such a simple truth was always there staring us in the face and yet we cannot see it, we cannot comprehend it and at every turn we deny it. If matter cannot have intelligence then how do you explain yours?. You are tangible proof what you are implying cannot be true, one of you is wrong...poof your mind has been blown.


AC
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2016, 08:36:24 PM

As far as your analogy goes, you don't have a sample electrical circuit to base it on so that's not too good.  You have yet to show any Joule Thief operating in "resonance" - it's all just talk and talk is cheap.

The inductor acts like a gravity well?  Are you referring to the spring perhaps in an oblique way?  Nor do you have an equivalent to a battery source in your analogy.

MileHigh

Actually, this is not "my analogy", this comes straight from electronics engineering textbooks.
Where-in the Armstrong oscillator is described in terms of its' real-world physical analogy.
The weight on a spring

the "battery" in this case, as examined as a single pulse (one cycle)
is analogous to the "lifting" of the weight through the gravitational field gradient.

E=mgh is equivalent to the electrical potential energy of the pulse in this example.

Take the round hole, and shave it into a square, then maybe your square peg will fit.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 11:13:24 PM
Okay the analogy is fine.  Using gravity and Mgh is a little bit less intuitive than the analogy I normally think of.

If the mass is horizontal and on a frictionless surface and connected to a spring is the analogy that I prefer.  Then the energy in the moving mass and energy in the displacement of the spring are in perfect quadrature.  Depending on how you view the variables, the mass is the capacitor and the spring is the inductor, or vice-versa.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 15, 2016, 11:23:35 PM
Magluvin:

You notice that at 655 kHz you can start to see sloping edges for the rise and fall of the LED voltage.  So you are really pushing up the frequency there.  At very high frequencies the whole switching setup will start to get "sloppy" and get over affected by parasitic capacitance in the circuit.

The glitch on the battery voltage may or may not be there.  It could be due to coupling between the two channels.  I suggest that you do a low trigger on the battery voltage glitch and then disconnect the channel connected to the LED voltage and see what happens.  It's possible that the glitch will remain the same, or get very attenuated and you might lose trigger, or it might disappear completely.  You figure looking at the battery voltage alone will give you a "cleaner" view of it.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 16, 2016, 01:54:18 AM
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg474187#msg474187 date=1455549610


MileHigh


Quote
All that you are really doing is baiting and switching yourself in a case like this.  You were playing around with Joule Thief circuits and you stumbled across the "Cool Joule" circuit and decided for yourself that it was a "Joule Thief."  It simply does not work like that.

It works exactly like that MH,and i have explained to you before that a JT circuit is !not! MHs choice of circuit,but is a circuit that can extract the remaining energy from an otherwise dead battery-->did you not read the wikipedia link i provided ?.

Quote
No, they are not Joule Thief circuits because it looks almost certain that they will not have the same performance as a Joule Thief when it comes to extracting energy from a nearly dead battery that has a low voltage-high impedance output.

Please define !performance! MH. Lots of light output with a heavy drain on the battery-short run time--or, less light output,lighter drain on the battery,but longer run time?. Are you now going to set the parameters on how a joule thief should operate as well ?

Quote
Neither did you make any attempt at all to explain how your circuit worked.  That's not electronics Brad, it's just show and tell and don't explain.  As TK said many times and I echoed him, you are not doing an experiment, your are just observing and nothing more than that.

I told MarkE how the circuit was able to function,and he too did not believe me at the start,but then figured out for him self that it did indeed operate as i stated. But one more time for you MH-->it works due to the miller capacitance effect-->the C in LRC MH.

Quote
Those circuits that you see in the clips and the circuit schematic that you posted are simple oscillators based on amplification and feedback.Since the transistor is firing you take advantage of that to energize an inductor and light an LED.

And your JT circuit works different how?.

Quote
You guys are blindly saying there is no coupling between one coil and the other coil.  Well, I hate to tell you this but there is some kind of coupling taking place somewhere to get the positive feedback oscillation going.  It could be inductive, it could be capacitive,

Yes,the C in LRC MH.

Quote
Perhaps the biggest issue is that you yourself have no clue exactly how and why the circuit is oscillating.  It's not necessarily easy either because sometimes just putting a scope probe on the circuit may stop the oscillation.  This is just a "black box" show and tell and you don't know what's inside the black box.

Well thats incorrect MH,as i have stated many times how the circuit operates-and again just above.

Quote
But going back to the standard Joule Thief, I believe that when the battery is even below the switch-on voltage for the base-emitter diode in the transistor, the Joule Thief can still operate and keep switching on the transistor.  That's because the "primary" side of the transformer can still boost the battery voltage before it gets to the transistor base resistor.  The "Cool Joule" is nothing more than an oscillator that takes advantage of the transistor switching to do the old coil-light-an-LED trick, but there are no extra tricks to keep it running when the battery voltage gets very low.  So it's not a Joule Thief because it does not do anything special to extract energy from a very-low-voltage battery.

When the correct coils are used,the cool joule can keep running with battery voltages as low as 200mV. It dose this in the very same way !your! JT circuit dose. Look again at the two circuits below MH--are the circuit's any different ?-other than the absence of the 1k resistor and core ?

Quote
You are not going there Brad.  You have been fully aware of what the standard Joule Thief circuit is for years and you are fully aware that that's exactly what I have been talking about.
It is absolutely NOT an LRC circuit.  There isn't even a capacitor in the schematic and if hypothetically you could somehow remove all of the stray/parasitic capacitance in the circuit the standard Joule Thief would still operate perfectly.  Time to get real and stop this nonsense talk.

Once again MH,a joule thief is not one circuit,but any circuit designed to drain the remaining energy from what otherwise would be considered a dead battery. There is !no! one MH JT circuit,just the same as there is !no! one vehicle designed to transport people.
As i have stated before,there is two capacitance values in your JT circuit. 1 being the capacitance between the two winding's,and even though small,it dose have an effect on a circuit that operates at these low voltages and high frequencies. Take !your! JT circuit,and get it up and running. Now ,place a 1 or 2 pF cap across the two winding's,and see how that effects the running of the circuit.
And then there is the capacitance within the transistor it self.
Quote: In electrical circuits, parasitic capacitance, or stray capacitance is an unavoidable and usually unwanted capacitance that exists between the parts of an electronic component or circuit simply because of their proximity to each other. All actual circuit elements such as inductors, diodes, and transistors have internal capacitance, which can cause their behavior to depart from that of 'ideal' circuit elements. Additionally, there is always non-zero capacitance between any two conductors; this can be significant at higher frequencies with closely spaced conductors.
So you see MH,you are wrong when you say that the JT is not an LRC circuit,as every circuit has some C value. We do not operate within perfect conditions here MH,we operate in reality-as do our circuit's. This small C value starts to play a big part when in higher frequency ranges such as Mags is at now. Your ideal conditions do not exist in these circuit's MH-->and you know this.

It is funny to watch you pick and choose,as we go along in these threads. One time you insist that the extremely small inductance found within an incandescent bulb running on 60hZ AC can have an effect on the operation of a circuit,and yet here you dismiss the small C value that exist in your JT circuit ::).  You cant have it both way's MH,and pick and choose what values you wish to include-when you want to include them. You either have to be accurate all the time,or dismiss these small values all the time-->you just cant pick and choose as it suit's you-as you seem to do many times.

It is also funny how you constantly insist that the experimenters here test and understand what they are seeing with there circuits operation. What i have seen in this thread alone,is Smokey and Mag's doing all the research,building,testing,and presenting there findings from years of this,while you sit in your armchair,rocking back and forth,and deciding whether or not they are correct. It's almost like you are flipping a penny-heads there right,tails there wrong. Your beloved electrical theory itself tells you that there is a C value in all these circuit's,and still the coin falls tail up for you. ::). Even whan i present !your! JT circuit functioning from the C value of the transistor alone,you still insist that the JT circuit is not an RLC circuit.

I would be interested in seeing what capacitance Mags measures between his two windings on his JT,and then set it into operation,and place a cap of that value across the two windings,and see how much it effects the operation of the circuit.

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2016, 01:58:51 AM
Interesting that the fellow that started this topic is named Resonance Man.

Just an observation.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: allcanadian on February 16, 2016, 02:43:13 AM
@tinman
Quote
It is funny to watch you pick and choose,as we go along in these threads. One time you insist that the extremely small inductance found within an incandescent bulb running on 60hZ AC can have an effect on the operation of a circuit,and yet here you dismiss the small C value that exist in your JT circuit [/size].  You cant have it both way's MH,and pick and choose what values you wish to include-when you want to include them. You either have to be accurate all the time,or dismiss these small values all the time-->you just cant pick and choose as it suit's you-as you seem to do many times.


Strange isn't it tinman?, do you see the trend here in the forums as more and more people catch on?. I think it scares the hell out of people like MH and when it does catch it will be a shit storm of epic proportions. Just around the corner MH... it's just around the corner and when Pandora comes there is no closing that box, she's wide open.


AC
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 16, 2016, 03:53:52 AM
Brad:

Quote
It works exactly like that MH,and i have explained to you before that a JT circuit is !not! MHs choice of circuit,but is a circuit that can extract the remaining energy from an otherwise dead battery-->did you not read the wikipedia link i provided ?.

No it really doesn't work like that were you arbitrarily attach the same label to different circuits with different architectures to suit your fancy.  The Wikipedia link is wrong and was corrupted by somebody.  Just like the time I looked up a magnet on Wikipedia and to my shock read that there was a "Bloch wall" at the center of a bar magnet.

Quote
Please define !performance! MH. Lots of light output with a heavy drain on the battery-short run time--or, less light output,lighter drain on the battery,but longer run time?

Here is what I wrote:  "they will not have the same performance as a Joule Thief when it comes to extracting energy from a nearly dead battery."

Quote
But one more time for you MH-->it works due to the miller capacitance effect

You are not explaining how it works at all.  You are just referencing an effect.  You still have no clue what is inside the "black box."

Quote
Yes,the C in LRC MH.

Yes the "Cool Joule" is some form of oscillator most likely based on capacitance and inductance but right now you have no clue how it actually works and cannot produce a timing diagram and explain it.  That's in contrast to a Joule Thief that has nothing to do with an RLC-based oscillator.

Quote
Well thats incorrect MH,as i have stated many times how the circuit operates-and again just above.

You did not explain how it works just above.  I already told you just saying "Miller effect" is a total fail.  You actually don't know how it works.  If you were determined you would try to figure it out but I don't see that happening.

Quote
When the correct coils are used,the cool joule can keep running with battery voltages as low as 200mV. It dose this in the very same way !your! JT circuit dose. Look again at the two circuits below MH--are the circuit's any different ?-other than the absence of the 1k resistor and core ?

It's a subtlety that escapes you but it is what it is.  The feedback can sustain your oscillator circuit and drain the battery but the circuit operates as an oscillator.  A Joule Thief is a pulse circuit and not an oscillator circuit, and it is purposefully designed to drain a battery.

Quote
So you see MH,you are wrong when you say that the JT is not an LRC circuit,as every circuit has some C value. We do not operate within perfect conditions here MH,we operate in reality-as do our circuit's. This small C value starts to play a big part when in higher frequency ranges such as Mags is at now. Your ideal conditions do not exist in these circuit's MH-->and you know this.

That's a very good quote that you posted about parasitic capacitance but it seems you are now suffering from a capacitance fetish.  I will just repeat to you that the Joule Thief is not designed with a capacitor, it does not resonate like some kind of RLC circuit, and it is in fact a pulse circuit that is governed in it's operation by the properties of inductance and resistance.  If you can't understand that or are just sticking to your original statement and refusing because you will turn blue and nearly faint if you acknowledge the truth, that's your problem.  We have all seen this before.

It's amazing how even something as simple and straightforward as Joule Thief can be willfully misrepresented by people on the forums with willful ignorance.  You have one guy that has a resonance fetish and wears resonance-glazed glasses and can only see resonance when when it is not even there.  And now you have drunk the Kool-Aid yourself and see stray capacitance in a circuit that has no capacitors in it and are now wearing capacitor-glazed glasses with a minor in resonance.  You both walk up to what is clearly a pulse circuit sitting on a bench and look up and say it is an RLC resonant circuit.  It's insane and this pattern is going to repeat itself forever on the free energy forums.  The people on the EEVblog forum would slice both of you to pieces.  That's my little rant.

Quote
It is funny to watch you pick and choose,as we go along in these threads. One time you insist that the extremely small inductance found within an incandescent bulb running on 60hZ AC can have an effect on the operation of a circuit,and yet here you dismiss the small C value that exist in your JT circuit (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif).  You cant have it both way's MH,and pick and choose what values you wish to include-when you want to include them. You either have to be accurate all the time,or dismiss these small values all the time-->you just cant pick and choose as it suit's you-as you seem to do many times.

I would never say that the inductance in a light bulb filament would affect a light bulb powered by mains AC.  If you are going to pluck a quote of mine and not ignore the context I will deal with it because I would not be surprised if it is coming.  You absolutely can pick and choose because that is how electronics works.  That is clearly a weakness on your side and you are seemingly going to ignore all advice given to you about this critical issue.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 16, 2016, 04:25:20 AM
Brad:

Quote
It is also funny how you constantly insist that the experimenters here test and understand what they are seeing with there circuits operation. What i have seen in this thread alone,is Smokey and Mag's doing all the research,building,testing,and presenting there findings from years of this,while you sit in your armchair,rocking back and forth,and deciding whether or not they are correct. It's almost like you are flipping a penny-heads there right,tails there wrong. Your beloved electrical theory itself tells you that there is a C value in all these circuit's,and still the coin falls tail up for you. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif). Even whan i present !your! JT circuit functioning from the C value of the transistor alone,you still insist that the JT circuit is not an RLC circuit.

Well it's really funny how you sleepwalk seemingly in a daze and state that you have explained how the "Cool Joule" works when you apparently haven't even lifted a finger to try to understand it and explain it.  You learned a new term "Miller Effect" and threw it at the "Cool Joule" and are now satisfied that you have "explained" it.  Or you are in a daze about the Joule Thief.  Like I said, if you tried to pull off that stunt on the EEVblog forum, chances are you would end up feeling like you just passed though a Veg-O-Matic.

I don't know if you would know the big old American General Motors sedans from the early 1970s.  They were huge with big V8s and they had power steering with no road feedback, you could control the steering with your pinky.  You are like a happy big ole' Southern "bubba" type of guy in his big Chevy out on a Sunday drive in the country with a beer in his hand.  You are just chilling and driving the car with your knees on the steering wheel, and if you need to make a turn, then you can do it as easy as pie with your pinky.  Just cruising along blissfully and barely aware of the road.

The problem is that you can't make a quick turn if you have to.  Another problem is that your 1973 Impala is so poorly manufactured that it probably left the production line with 150+ defects.  It's gas hungry too.  But you can blissfully cruise along in a daze just as happy as can be.

Then in a few short years the Japanese are going to make smaller more fuel efficient cars that have super stringent quality control.  Before you know it people in fast nimble cars are whipping by you and leaving you in the dust.  The smart agile high-tech high-quality Japanese manufactures are going to bring the big ole' Chevys to their knees and almost make them go extinct.

So it's not me that's sitting back in my armchair.  It's you that is cruising along down the road in your big fat car with a beer and steering with your knees in willful ignorance and blissful daydreaming.  The only thing that takes you out of your stupor is when you have a close call and nearly have an accident.  Then you wake up.

Quote
I would be interested in seeing what capacitance Mags measures between his two windings on his JT,and then set it into operation,and place a cap of that value across the two windings,and see how much it effects the operation of the circuit.

My guess is that it would affect the timing by less than 1%.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2016, 04:34:32 AM
MH:

Big Clive, the man who coined the term Joule Thief, describes the circuit thus:

"A typical transformer feedback single transistor invertor"

http://www.bigclive.com/joule.htm (http://www.bigclive.com/joule.htm)


The Make video that got me started on the JT circuit:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)

Video on How to make a Joule Thief circuit by Big Clive:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K53beWYdIpc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K53beWYdIpc)

Quote from Clive in above video info: "There are a few variants on the design which add extra components to improve efficiency, but a true Joule Thief uses a single transistor, 1K resistor, hand wound ferrite bead transformer and the LED you want to light."

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 16, 2016, 04:41:43 AM

"A typical transformer feedback single transistor invertor"

Bill


Yes, the "transformer feedback" is the winding that drives the base resistor.  The "invertor" is because when the transistor input is "high" the transistor output is "low."

I will see if I can find any links that describe a Joule Thief as a pulse circuit.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2016, 05:00:12 AM
Yes, the "transformer feedback" is the winding that drives the base resistor.  The "invertor" is because when the transistor input is "high" the transistor output is "low."

I will see if I can find any links that describe a Joule Thief as a pulse circuit.

Check my above post again as I modded it with links to Big Clive who invented the term JT for this circuit.  He has a very narrow definition of what a real JT is.  Since he invented the term, I guess I have to go with his definition.  That means, that many of my "so-called" JT circuits are not really JT circuits.  I am going to have to think about this.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 16, 2016, 05:00:42 AM
http://makezine.com/projects/joule-thief-battery-charger/

How a Joule Thief works:

 This circuit used in this project is a modified "Joule Thief." A Joule Thief is a self-oscillating voltage booster. It takes a steady low voltage signal and converts it into a series of high frequency pulses at a higher voltage. Here is how a basic Joule Thief works, step by step:
    1. Initially the transistor is off.
    2. A small amount of electricity goes through the resistor and the first coil to the base of the transistor. This partially opens up the collector-emitter channel. Electricity is now able to travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    3. The increasing amount of electricity through the second coil generates a magnetic field that induces a greater amount of electricity in the first coil.
    4. The induced electricity in the first coil goes into the base of the transistor and opens up the collector-emitter channel even more. This lets even more electricity travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    5. Steps 3 and 4 repeat in a feedback loop until the base of the transistor is saturated and the collector-emitter channel is fully open. The electricity traveling through the second coil and through the transistor are now at a maximum. There is a lot of energy built up in the magnetic field of the second coil.
    6. Since the electricity in the second coil is no longer increasing, it stops inducing electricity in the first coil. This causes less electricity to go into the base of the transistor.
    7. With less electricity going into the base of the transistor, the collector-emitter channel begins to close. This allows less electricity to travel through the second coil.
    8. A drop in the amount of electricity in the second coil induces a negative amount of electricity in the first coil. This causes even less electricity to go into the base of the transistor.
    9. Steps 7 and 8 repeat in a feedback loop until there is almost no electricity going through the transistor.
    10. Part of the energy that was stored in the magnetic field of the second coil has drained out. However there is still a lot of energy stored up. This energy needs to go somewhere. This causes the voltage at the output of the coil to spike.
    11. The built up electricity can't go through the transistor, so it has to go through the load (usually an LED). The voltage at the output of the coil builds up until it reaches a voltage where is can go through the load and be dissipated.
    12. The built up energy goes through the load in a big spike. Once the energy is dissipated, the circuit is effectively reset and starts the whole process all over again. In a typical Joule Thief circuit this process happens 50,000 times per second.

What the heck?   No mention of "resonance" anywhere?!  No mention of "LC" or "RLC" anywhere?!

It must be an NWO plot and they want to hide the truth from you.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2016, 05:02:24 AM
http://makezine.com/projects/joule-thief-battery-charger/ (http://makezine.com/projects/joule-thief-battery-charger/)

How a Joule Thief works:

 This circuit used in this project is a modified "Joule Thief." A Joule Thief is a self-oscillating voltage booster. It takes a steady low voltage signal and converts it into a series of high frequency pulses at a higher voltage. Here is how a basic Joule Thief works, step by step:
    1. Initially the transistor is off.
    2. A small amount of electricity goes through the resistor and the first coil to the base of the transistor. This partially opens up the collector-emitter channel. Electricity is now able to travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    3. The increasing amount of electricity through the second coil generates a magnetic field that induces a greater amount of electricity in the first coil.
    4. The induced electricity in the first coil goes into the base of the transistor and opens up the collector-emitter channel even more. This lets even more electricity travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    5. Steps 3 and 4 repeat in a feedback loop until the base of the transistor is saturated and the collector-emitter channel is fully open. The electricity traveling through the second coil and through the transistor are now at a maximum. There is a lot of energy built up in the magnetic field of the second coil.
    6. Since the electricity in the second coil is no longer increasing, it stops inducing electricity in the first coil. This causes less electricity to go into the base of the transistor.
    7. With less electricity going into the base of the transistor, the collector-emitter channel begins to close. This allows less electricity to travel through the second coil.
    8. A drop in the amount of electricity in the second coil induces a negative amount of electricity in the first coil. This causes even less electricity to go into the base of the transistor.
    9. Steps 7 and 8 repeat in a feedback loop until there is almost no electricity going through the transistor.
    10. Part of the energy that was stored in the magnetic field of the second coil has drained out. However there is still a lot of energy stored up. This energy needs to go somewhere. This causes the voltage at the output of the coil to spike.
    11. The built up electricity can't go through the transistor, so it has to go through the load (usually an LED). The voltage at the output of the coil builds up until it reaches a voltage where is can go through the load and be dissipated.
    12. The built up energy goes through the load in a big spike. Once the energy is dissipated, the circuit is effectively reset and starts the whole process all over again. In a typical Joule Thief circuit this process happens 50,000 times per second.

What the heck?   No mention of "resonance" anywhere?!  No mention of "LC" or "RLC" anywhere?!

It must be an NWO plot and they want to hide the truth from you.

Yes, but Make got the JT design from Big Clive.  (see links in my earlier posting)

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 16, 2016, 05:09:36 AM
http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/LEDTorchCircuits/LEDTorchCircuits-P1.html

CIRCUIT A
The first circuit in this discussion is the simplest design.
It consists of a transistor, resistor and transformer, with almost any type of LED. The circuit will drive a red LED, HIGH BRIGHT LED, or white LED.
The circuit produces high voltage pulses of about 40v p-p at a frequency of 200kHz.
Normally you cannot supply a LED with a voltage higher than its characteristic voltage, but if the pulses are very short, the LED will absorb the energy and convert it to light. This is the case with this circuit. The characteristic voltage of the LED we used was very nearly 4v and this means the voltage across it for a very short period of time was 4v. The details of the transformer are shown in the photo. The core was a 2.6mm diameter "slug" 6mm long and the wire was 0.95mm diam. In fact any core could be used and the diameter of the wire is not important. The number of turns are not important however if the secondary winding does not have enough turns, the circuit will not start-up.

HOW THE CIRCUIT WORKS
The transformer is configured as a BLOCKING OSCILLATOR and the cycle starts by the transistor turning on via the 2k7 base resistor.
This causes current to flow in the 60-turn main winding. The other winding is called the feedback winding and is connected so that it produces a voltage to turn the transistor on MORE during this part of the cycle.
This winding should really be called a "feed-forward" winding as the signal it supplies to the transistor is a positive signal to increase the operation of the circuit. This is discussed in more detail in Circuit Tricks.
This voltage allows a higher current to flow in the transistor and it keeps turning on until it is saturated.
At this point the magnetic flux produced by the main winding is a maximum but it is not expanding flux and thus it ceases to produce a voltage in the feedback winding. This causes less current to flow into the base of the transistor and the transistor turns off slightly.
The flux produced by the main winding is now called collapsing flux and it produces a voltage in the feedback winding of opposite polarity. This causes the transistor to turn off and this action occurs until it is completely off.
The magnetic flux continues to collapse and cuts the turns of the main winding to produce a very high voltage of opposite polarity.
However this voltage is prevented from rising to a high value by the presence of the LED and thus the energy produced by the collapsing magnetic flux is converted to light by the LED.
The circuit operates at approx 200kHz, depending on the value of the base resistor and physical dimensions of the transformer.
The circuit draws 85mA from the 1.5v cell and the brightness of the LED was equivalent to it being powered from a DC supply delivering 10 - 15mA.

Say what??  No mention of "resonance" or "RLC" again!
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 16, 2016, 05:13:41 AM
http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/CircuitTricks/CircuitTricks-2.html

CIRCUIT 3:

The third circuit uses feedback from a transformer to turn the circuit ON to a point where it is fully turned on. It is taken from our LED Torch Circuits article. The cycle starts with the 2k7 resistor feeding current into the base of the transistor. This starts to turn the transistor on and current flows in the 60 turn winding and produces magnetic flux that cuts the turns of the 40 turn winding. The 40 turn winding produces extra voltage that adds to the original voltage and this allows extra current to flow into the base of the transistor to turn it on more.
This continues until the transistor is fully turned on. This action is called positive feedback or more accurately REGENERATION.

The three circuits operate in exactly the same mode. This mode is called a SWITCHING MODE.  They change from one state to another VERY QUICKLY.
This action is called a SWITCHING ACTION or DIGITAL ACTION or DIGITAL MODE. There are basically two types of circuits, DIGITAL CIRCUITS and ANALOGUE CIRCUITS (also called audio circuits). An audio circuit operates over a smooth range of low output to high output. A digital circuit goes from one state to the other very quickly.
When this change is produced by the components within the circuit, the action is called REGENERATION because the action cannot be stopped and takes the transitor(s) from the state of not being turned on to the state of being fully turned on.

What the hell?
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: hoptoad on February 16, 2016, 06:09:09 AM
snip...
Quote from Clive in above video info: "There are a few variants on the design which add extra components to improve efficiency, but a true Joule Thief uses a single transistor, 1K resistor, hand wound ferrite bead transformer and the LED you want to light."
Bill
So if I substitute the 1K resistor for a 980 ohm, or I substitute hand wound for machine wound, or ferrite for air, etc, then it's not a JT.
Can you see how arbitrary and silly that notion is.?

Since JT is a vernacular term, and not an accepted Electrical Engineering term, then quite frankly, we can call anything a JT if we like and still be correct.

General language dictionaries (like Wikipeadia) reflect common usage and are therefore descriptive not proscriptive.

It seems that MH is not the only person who wants to place arbitrary parameters on what constitutes a JT.
So he (Clive) may have been the first to coin the term JT, but he doesn't own the term any more than the person who first used the term electronic to describe a particular device. As if arbitrarily deciding that only that very specific device can in any way be called 'electronic'.

A f.....g storm in a teacup really.
@Tinman, thanks for your sharing of your time on the bench.

cheers
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: allcanadian on February 16, 2016, 06:38:00 AM
Quote
7. With less electricity going into the base of the transistor, the collector-emitter channel begins to close. This allows less electricity to travel through the second coil.
8. A drop in the amount of electricity in the second coil induces a negative amount of electricity in the first coil. This causes even less electricity to go into the base of the transistor.


Induces a negative amount of electricity in the first coil?, a negative amount of something is less than nothing. Sounds like some kind of woo woo perpetual motion claim to me, has no credibility.
Although according to a scientific study just made up by me 9 out of 10 people under the age of four may believe in negative lectricity.


AC
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Lakes on February 16, 2016, 09:53:03 AM
Negative Electrickery Generator. :)
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 16, 2016, 10:31:26 AM
http://makezine.com/projects/joule-thief-battery-charger/

How a Joule Thief works:

 This circuit used in this project is a modified "Joule Thief." A Joule Thief is a self-oscillating voltage booster. It takes a steady low voltage signal and converts it into a series of high frequency pulses at a higher voltage. Here is how a basic Joule Thief works, step by step:
    1. Initially the transistor is off.
    2. A small amount of electricity goes through the resistor and the first coil to the base of the transistor. This partially opens up the collector-emitter channel. Electricity is now able to travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    3. The increasing amount of electricity through the second coil generates a magnetic field that induces a greater amount of electricity in the first coil.
    4. The induced electricity in the first coil goes into the base of the transistor and opens up the collector-emitter channel even more. This lets even more electricity travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    5. Steps 3 and 4 repeat in a feedback loop until the base of the transistor is saturated and the collector-emitter channel is fully open. The electricity traveling through the second coil and through the transistor are now at a maximum. There is a lot of energy built up in the magnetic field of the second coil.
    6. Since the electricity in the second coil is no longer increasing, it stops inducing electricity in the first coil. This causes less electricity to go into the base of the transistor.
    7. With less electricity going into the base of the transistor, the collector-emitter channel begins to close. This allows less electricity to travel through the second coil.
    8. A drop in the amount of electricity in the second coil induces a negative amount of electricity in the first coil. This causes even less electricity to go into the base of the transistor.
    9. Steps 7 and 8 repeat in a feedback loop until there is almost no electricity going through the transistor.
    10. Part of the energy that was stored in the magnetic field of the second coil has drained out. However there is still a lot of energy stored up. This energy needs to go somewhere. This causes the voltage at the output of the coil to spike.
    11. The built up electricity can't go through the transistor, so it has to go through the load (usually an LED). The voltage at the output of the coil builds up until it reaches a voltage where is can go through the load and be dissipated.
    12. The built up energy goes through the load in a big spike. Once the energy is dissipated, the circuit is effectively reset and starts the whole process all over again. In a typical Joule Thief circuit this process happens 50,000 times per second.

What the heck?   No mention of "resonance" anywhere?!  No mention of "LC" or "RLC" anywhere?!

It must be an NWO plot and they want to hide the truth from you.

Wow-what do you know--works the very same as the good old ssg pulse motor circuit.
Remember me trying to explain that to you MH--the cascade effect that takes place when the transistor starts to conduct due to the current generated in the trigger coil by the passing magnet.
The solid state version works exactly the same.

I have told you a number of times now MH,you do not get to define what a JT circuit is--it is !NOT! one circuit,it is a circuit that work on an effect,and results in the near total drain of what would otherwise be a dead battery.

I would suggest that you have another look at how these circuits work,and how the transistor can still switch on when the battery voltage is lower than the minimum required base voltage to switch the transistor on. You assume that the base voltage has to be high enough to switch on the transistor,but that is not correct at all. You either raise the base voltage,or pull the emitter voltage down to a negative voltage-which is what L1 dose in these circuits.

Lets test this theory of yours that the (your) JT circuit is the best at what it dose.
I will use the good old SS SSG circuit,and we'll make a comparison. Then we'll see what is the best JT circuit.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 16, 2016, 10:37:27 AM
Okay the analogy is fine.  Using gravity and Mgh is a little bit less intuitive than the analogy I normally think of.

If the mass is horizontal and on a frictionless surface and connected to a spring is the analogy that I prefer.  Then the energy in the moving mass and energy in the displacement of the spring are in perfect quadrature.  Depending on how you view the variables, the mass is the capacitor and the spring is the inductor, or vice-versa.

MileHigh

This is the analog to the LC circuit, using no ferrite in the inductor. (or the permeability of free space, which is negligible in this case.)

adding both gravity, and friction, is analogous to an RLC, with a ferrite core.

if gravity had a "resonant frequency", this spring would be something strange.......
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 16, 2016, 11:33:22 AM
What is a joule thief.

Quote Makezine.com-->A “Joule Thief” is a simple voltage booster circuit. It can increase the voltage of a power source by changing the constant low voltage signal into a series of rapid pulses at a higher voltage.

Quote wikipedia-->A joule thief is a minimalist Armstrong[1] self-oscillating voltage booster that is small, low-cost, and easy to build, typically used for driving light loads.
It can use nearly all of the energy in a single-cell electric battery, even far below the voltage where other circuits consider the battery fully discharged (or "dead"); hence the name, which suggests the notion that the circuit is stealing energy or "joules" from the source. The term is a pun on the expression "jewel thief": one who steals jewelry or gemstones
Apparently MH thinks some one high jacked wiki,and th explanation is wrong ::)

Quote Rimstar.org-->The joule thief (aka blocking oscillator) is an electronic circuit that allows you to make use of batteries normally considered dead. A battery is often considered "dead" when it can't power a particular device.

Quote lizarum.com-->A Joule thief allows you to boost the voltage of a dying battery.

The list go's on.
So the JT is not one single circuit,but can be many types of circuits that perform the same operation -->and that is to drain the last remaining energy from a nearly depleted battery.

The circuit dose not even require the use of a transistor,and can be achieved in many different ways--as long as we get the LED to light,while draining the remaining energy from the battery.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 16, 2016, 01:32:59 PM
Here is the simple SS SSG circuit being used as a joule thief circuit.
As you can see,no problem at all driving a 10mm LED quite brightly at .25v(250mV)

So be wary of those here that quote things like-->No, they are not Joule Thief circuits because it looks almost certain that they will not have the same performance as a Joule Thief when it comes to extracting energy from a nearly dead battery that has a low voltage-high impedance output.

Or-->So it's not a Joule Thief because it does not do anything special to extract energy from a very-low-voltage battery.


Or-->they will not have the same performance as a Joule Thief when it comes to extracting energy from a nearly dead battery."

Comments like this are untrue,and as can be seen in my video,there are many circuits that operate just as well as a !MH! joule thief circuit. The one pictured in the video (the simple SS SSG circuit)is now running on a battery with a voltage of only .14v--even with the large 2n3055 transistor--you dont get much better than that.

Next we will be building a mechanical JT,and im hoping that it will operate near the .1v area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f1DG4syHCw

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Nink on February 16, 2016, 03:49:22 PM
Anyone know if a JT is a good solution for charging a NiCad battery from a low voltage trickle source.  I need to include JT in a circuit to run LEDs but I figured if I could use the same circuit for both
1) When turned off Tickle Power Source => JT => charges Nicad
2) When turned on uses Nicad => JT=> LED

If this is the case what would be the best JT circuit to use. Low voltage Low amp power source <1v DC  ~5 to 20mA   



Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 16, 2016, 04:32:04 PM
Quote
So the JT is not one single circuit,but can be many types of circuits that perform the same operation -->and that is to drain the last remaining energy from a nearly depleted battery.

What's language if we don't use it properly?  You want to be an effective communicator and this doubly applies to electronics where you want to use the right concepts, and use the correct nomenclature so as to avoid confusion.  If you don't do that then you can lose Mars satellites because someone was too lazy to say they were using metric units instead of English units.

A Joule Thief is a pulse circuit that is a type of blocking oscillator.  There can indeed be variations on Joule Thief designs but they are all types of blocking oscillators.  Feedback oscillators based on some kind of RLC circuit on the other hand are not pulse circuits at all.

Both Joule Thief/blocking oscillators and feedback oscillators can drain a battery no doubt.  For both types of designs there will be a minimum battery voltage where they can self-start.  Chances are that Joule Thief designs can self-start at lower voltages than feedback oscillators.  Then for both Joule Thiefs and feedback oscillators if they start at a higher voltage and run continuously they can keep on running lower than the minimum self-start voltage and keep on running to some minimum operating voltage.  As long as the oscillation takes place the circuit can stay alive.

So a feedback oscillator can drain a battery to a quite low voltage also as long as you don't stop it from oscillating, but it is not a Joule Thief.

Now, is that such a hard concept to understand?  I don't think it is.

For both designs, by carefully choosing the configuration and the component values you might be able to get self-starting going at a quite low voltage and sustained oscillation down to an even lower voltage.

Different Joule Thief designs are like variations on Romance languages, like comparing Spanish to French.  A feedback oscillator is a totally different beast, like comparing it to Mandarin Chinese.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 16, 2016, 04:39:50 PM
Here is the simple SS SSG circuit being used as a joule thief circuit.
As you can see,no problem at all driving a 10mm LED quite brightly at .25v(250mV)

So be wary of those here that quote things like-->No, they are not Joule Thief circuits because it looks almost certain that they will not have the same performance as a Joule Thief when it comes to extracting energy from a nearly dead battery that has a low voltage-high impedance output.

Or-->So it's not a Joule Thief because it does not do anything special to extract energy from a very-low-voltage battery.


Or-->they will not have the same performance as a Joule Thief when it comes to extracting energy from a nearly dead battery."

Comments like this are untrue,and as can be seen in my video,there are many circuits that operate just as well as a !MH! joule thief circuit. The one pictured in the video (the simple SS SSG circuit)is now running on a battery with a voltage of only .14v--even with the large 2n3055 transistor--you dont get much better than that.

Next we will be building a mechanical JT,and im hoping that it will operate near the .1v area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f1DG4syHCw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f1DG4syHCw)

Brad

<<< as can be seen in my video,there are many circuits that operate just as well as a !MH! joule thief circuit. >>>

Facepalm.

In an ironic, but not surprising twist, all that you are doing is proving my point.

Your SSG circuit IS a blocking oscillator.  So it is a variation on a Joule Thief.  From what I could see in the clip, it is self-clocking so it's basically a Joule Thief that you are showing in your clip.

I know that you are not going to provide a schematic, who needs pesky details like that...
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2016, 04:48:25 PM
Brad:


Quote from BigClive: "There are a few variants on the design which add extra components to improve efficiency, but a true Joule Thief uses a single transistor, 1K resistor, hand wound ferrite bead transformer and the LED you want to light."


You forgot to use BigClive's definitions of the JT circuit.  He is the one that came up with that name in the first place so, I think he gets to decide what it is, and is not. 


Of course, according to BigClive's definitions, a lot of my circuits are not JT's.  Maybe we here should come up with our own name to describe a blocking oscillator/feedback type circuit that boosts voltage and runs down batteries? 


I used the name "Joule Pirate"  on several of my circuits as Pirates have been known to steal stuff, ha ha.  I am not saying we need to use that but, all of my Fuji type circuits are not really JT's using Clive's definition.  They need to be called something.


Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 16, 2016, 05:42:10 PM
<<< as can be seen in my video,there are many circuits that operate just as well as a !MH! joule thief circuit. >>>

Facepalm.

In an ironic, but not surprising twist, all that you are doing is proving my point.

Your SSG circuit IS a blocking oscillator.  So it is a variation on a Joule Thief.  From what I could see in the clip, it is self-clocking so it's basically a Joule Thief that you are showing in your clip.

I know that you are not going to provide a schematic, who needs pesky details like that...

No MH,the facepalm is on you im afraid.
Like i said right from the word go-these circuits are not variations of a joule thief circuit--they are joule thief circuit's. When will you get it through your head that a joule thief is not one single circuit,but many that can perform the operation of draining a battery down to very low voltage,while putting out higher voltages required to run the required load--in this case,an LED.

If you do not know what the simple SS SSG circuit is,and require a schematic,then you really need to do some home work.
Should i place a capacitor some where on that circuit,just so as you are happy that you can visualize a capacitor ?. Or should i make an individual !!MH approved!! RLC circuit ?

But to save you some trouble of doing a bit of your own research MH,the circuit i used is below. You may place the LED in either position,as it will work quite fine in either.

So is it a blocking oscillator MH,or a flyback driven transformer?. Dose the transistor switch on hard while the magnetic field is building around the inductor,or dose the transistor switch on when the field is collapsing around the inductor?.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 16, 2016, 05:45:57 PM
Brad:


Quote from BigClive: "There are a few variants on the design which add extra components to improve efficiency, but a true Joule Thief uses a single transistor, 1K resistor, hand wound ferrite bead transformer and the LED you want to light."


You forgot to use BigClive's definitions of the JT circuit.  He is the one that came up with that name in the first place so, I think he gets to decide what it is, and is not. 


Of course, according to BigClive's definitions, a lot of my circuits are not JT's.  Maybe we here should come up with our own name to describe a blocking oscillator/feedback type circuit that boosts voltage and runs down batteries? 


I used the name "Joule Pirate"  on several of my circuits as Pirates have been known to steal stuff, ha ha.  I am not saying we need to use that but, all of my Fuji type circuits are not really JT's using Clive's definition.  They need to be called something.


Bill

If i remove the pot,and replace that pot with a resistor,i then have what big Clive states
A resistor,transistor,ferrite bead/toroid,and an LED-see circuit above in my last post.

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 16, 2016, 06:11:26 PM
Brad:

You were basically showing a variation on a Joule Thief/blocking oscilator and not really a different type of circuit architecture like you were alluding to so you get the facepalm.  I am pleasantly shocked that you provided a schematic after the fact.  Why don't you do that for all future clips in the actual clip where you demonstrate the circuit?

Quote
When will you get it through your head that a joule thief is not one single circuit

Get it through your head that circuits have different architectures and we often will refer to a certain architectural class of circuits with a common name and other circuits in a different architectural class with another different common name.  Undertake to learn something new instead of being so stubborn and holding your breath until you turn blue.

Quote
If you do not know what the simple SS SSG circuit is,and require a schematic,then you really need to do some home work.

Bullshit, the minimum experimenters should expect is to at least get a schematic.  Go look at some of your clips that are three years old so you can't remember the circuit anymore and watch yourself do a three minute rundown of where all the alligator clips are connected and see how it feels.

Quote
RLC circuit ?

Hey George Orwell, what happened to the Joule Thief as an RLC circuit?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 02:49:35 AM
Brad:

 
Get it through your head that circuits have different architectures and we often will refer to a certain architectural class of circuits with a common name and other circuits in a different architectural class with another different common name.  Undertake to learn something new instead of being so stubborn and holding your breath until you turn blue.

Bullshit, the minimum experimenters should expect is to at least get a schematic.  Go look at some of your clips that are three years old so you can't remember the circuit anymore and watch yourself do a three minute rundown of where all the alligator clips are connected and see how it feels.



MileHigh

Quote
You were basically showing a variation on a Joule Thief/blocking oscilator and not really a different type of circuit architecture like you were alluding to so you get the facepalm.

Oh really.

Quote
I am pleasantly shocked that you provided a schematic after the fact.  Why don't you do that for all future clips in the actual clip where you demonstrate the circuit?

Because it is painfully clear even when i do,you still pay no attention to it.
Here is your description on how the !your! JT circuit works.

Quote
How a Joule Thief works:

 This circuit used in this project is a modified "Joule Thief." A Joule Thief is a self-oscillating voltage booster. It takes a steady low voltage signal and converts it into a series of high frequency pulses at a higher voltage. Here is how a basic Joule Thief works, step by step:
    1. Initially the transistor is off.
    2. A small amount of electricity goes through the resistor and the first coil to the base of the transistor. This partially opens up the collector-emitter channel. Electricity is now able to travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    3. The increasing amount of electricity through the second coil generates a magnetic field that induces a greater amount of electricity in the first coil.
    4. The induced electricity in the first coil goes into the base of the transistor and opens up the collector-emitter channel even more. This lets even more electricity travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    5. Steps 3 and 4 repeat in a feedback loop until the base of the transistor is saturated and the collector-emitter channel is fully open. The electricity traveling through the second coil and through the transistor are now at a maximum. There is a lot of energy built up in the magnetic field of the second coil.
    6. Since the electricity in the second coil is no longer increasing, it stops inducing electricity in the first coil. This causes less electricity to go into the base of the transistor.
    7. With less electricity going into the base of the transistor, the collector-emitter channel begins to close. This allows less electricity to travel through the second coil.
    8. A drop in the amount of electricity in the second coil induces a negative amount of electricity in the first coil. This causes even less electricity to go into the base of the transistor.
    9. Steps 7 and 8 repeat in a feedback loop until there is almost no electricity going through the transistor.
    10. Part of the energy that was stored in the magnetic field of the second coil has drained out. However there is still a lot of energy stored up. This energy needs to go somewhere. This causes the voltage at the output of the coil to spike.
    11. The built up electricity can't go through the transistor, so it has to go through the load (usually an LED). The voltage at the output of the coil builds up until it reaches a voltage where is can go through the load and be dissipated.
    12. The built up energy goes through the load in a big spike. Once the energy is dissipated, the circuit is effectively reset and starts the whole process all over again. In a typical Joule Thief circuit this process happens 50,000 times per second.

So now i ask you once again MH--how dose the circuit i posted work?

Quote
Hey George Orwell, what happened to the Joule Thief as an RLC circuit?

Hey Wile E Coyote,looking at your description of the workings of your JT circuit,  12-The built up energy goes through the load in a big spike. Once the energy is dissipated, the circuit is effectively reset and starts the whole process all over again,how exactly dose the transistor switch on once the battery voltage go's below the switch on threshold voltage of the transistor ?. I mean ,it wouldnt have anything to do with junction capacitance within the transistor it self--would it MH,as that would mean that the!your! JT circuit would be an RLC circuit-->and we cant have that. :D

Your description is flawed,and as described,your JT circuit would stop operating once the battery voltage dropped below the threshold voltage required to switch on the transistor. In my circuit(provided),i use a 2n3055 transistor,and that requires 700mV at the base to switch on the transistor,and yet (as seen on the video)my circuit is quite happy to run on only 250mV.
So following your description of the workings of your JT MH,how exactly would it continue to run once the battery voltage is below the required voltage to switch on the transistor ?.
Facepalm ?

Below is your JT circuit,along with the circuit i used. Now have a good look MH,and tell me the difference in operation between the two.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 03:02:43 AM
I would also like to add that in my circuit below,it is better to have the LED in position 2. This creates a current loop through the LED and inductor only,while position 1 creates a current loop that includes the battery,where the voltage potential through the loop is opposite to that of the batteries voltage potential.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 04:46:14 AM
Brad:

We started off this thread with Smoky2 making the "resonance/they don't want you to know" pitch, and you making your pitch by just casually saying, "Oh, it's an RLC circuit, that should be obvious and everybody knows that."

And those two points are completely wrong and it's almost surprising that these things would be said after six years worth of playing with Joule Thieves.  So I set out to set the record straight for the benefit of all people that are truly interested in building and experimenting with Joule Thieves.

So I made the correct points so you guys and the readers would get it right.  Then I got a lot of push-back from both of you, a hell of a lot of it.  So I pushed back myself.  So now there is a lot of drama associated with this thread and the old Joule Thief regulars are watching it.

You have been making mistakes and that upsets you and you would almost die if you would admit that.  You should resolve that problem within yourself.  So you are taking a counter-measure strategy where you are doing a "play."  The "play" is to try to feign that I am the one that doesn't understand what is going on, so you are asking me questions.  The backdrop to all of this is that I have been around long enough so that you, and nearly everybody else watching, already has a very decent idea what my knowledge level is.

So I am not going to answer your silly basic questions that you know I know the answer to and presumably most of the readers know that I know the answer to.  We are going to get this right for your benefit and for others' benefit without the  needless BS and fake psychodrama.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 05:03:43 AM
Brad:

Quote
Because it is painfully clear even when i do,you still pay no attention to it.

That's an example of the fake psychodrama and I wish it would stop.

Quote
I mean ,it wouldnt have anything to do with junction capacitance within the transistor it self--would it MH,as that would mean that the!your! JT circuit would be an RLC circuit-->and we cant have that. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif))

The ball is in your court on this one.  You tell me why with junction capacitance or without junction capacitance, it's not an RLC circuit.

Quote
So following your description of the workings of your JT MH,how exactly would it continue to run once the battery voltage is below the required voltage to switch on the transistor ?.
Facepalm ?

Your question is another example of the fake psychodrama.  You already know the answer to this question.  So why don't you, for the benefit of the readers, give them a nice succinct paragraph that explains the whys and hows for them.  This is one of the great key things about the Joule Thief.

Quote
Below is your JT circuit,along with the circuit i used. Now have a good look MH,and tell me the difference in operation between the two.

There is a huge mistake in the circuit that you plucked off the Internet.  Why don't you fix the mistake first and even annotate it so that it reflects what was shown in your clip.  How about you discuss the starting procedure for the benefit of the readers.

Quote
Now have a good look MH,and tell me the difference in operation between the two.

The real challenge for you is this:  Explain to the readers how the two circuits are virtually identical and how they operate essentially the same way in your own words.

Quote
I would also like to add that in my circuit below,it is better to have the LED in position 2. This creates a current loop through the LED and inductor only,while position 1 creates a current loop that includes the battery,where the voltage potential through the loop is opposite to that of the batteries voltage potential.

Besides the huge mistake in your schematic that you need to fix, the latter part of the quote above is ambiguous and has issues.  Please fix it up so that it is understandable.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 06:00:27 AM
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg474397#msg474397 date=1455680774
Brad:





Quote
We started off this thread with Smoky2 making the "resonance/they don't want you to know" pitch, and you making your pitch by just casually saying, "Oh, it's an RLC circuit, that should be obvious and everybody knows that."

I was not the first to claim it was an RLC circuit MH-->hint,reply 104
Quote: Several heated discussions, have led to the understanding of SRF with respect to the LRC portion of the circuit.However, the transistor function seems to cause problems for many.
Now MH-weather you like it or not,this is where the C is in the LRC-->in the junction capacitance of the transistor,where the miller effect is created.

Quote
And those two points are completely wrong and it's almost surprising that these things would be said after six years worth of playing with Joule Thieves.  So I set out to set the record straight for the benefit of all people that are truly interested in building and experimenting with Joule Thieves.

The fact is MH,you are doing the opposite. You are plastering incorrect/incomplete information all over this thread,and as you can see,the thread has died,and Smokey has left<--got sick of arguing with the arm chair guru i would expect.

Quote
So I made the correct points so you guys and the readers would get it right.  Then I got a lot of push-back from both of you, a hell of a lot of it.  So I pushed back myself.  So now there is a lot of drama associated with this thread and the old Joule Thief regulars are watching it.

No MH,your points are incorrect,and 1 example is that you think that the JT is a circuit. It is not 1 single circuit,it is any circuit that can perform or create a similar outcome-->that being able to almost fully deplete a battery of it's stored energy while driving an LED(or other loads)
The reason you get pushback MH,is because you are trying to tell people like Smokey and myself that we are wrong,even though i(and a few others) have shown you that the C value in these types of circuit's can alone keep the circuit functioning-->the miller effect. As soon as you add a transistor MH,you have a capacitance value that plays a part in the overall circuit operation-->these are fact's,and anyone reading this thread can look for them self what the junction capacitance value is for the transistor they are using. It's there MH,and you cant make it go away.

Quote
You have been making mistakes and that upsets you and you would almost die if you would admit that.  You should resolve that problem within yourself.


I have made no mistakes MH in my claims here on this thread. In fact,i have shown you people that have replicated JT circuit's that rely on the C of the RLC circuit to operate. This is fact MH,and as much as you would like to try and push your rubbish through,i have presented evidence against your claims by way of working devices.

 
Quote
So you are taking a counter-measure strategy where you are doing a "play."  The "play" is to try to feign that I am the one that doesn't understand what is going on, so you are asking me questions.  The backdrop to all of this is that I have been around long enough so that you, and nearly everybody else watching, already has a very decent idea what my knowledge level is.

Unfortunately MH,your knowledge is from yesty year,and there are those that have gained more knowledge through bench time,and results achieved,and then being able to interpret those result's.
As i said,the operation description you gave for the JT is incomplete,and incorrect.

Quote
So I am not going to answer your silly basic questions that you know I know the answer to and presumably most of the readers know that I know the answer to.

Big copout MH,and clearly show's you cannot answer my questions,as you know that your explanation of how the JT circuit will be shown to be incorrect if you do answer my two questions.

So i will ask once again MH,how dose the transistor switch on once the batteries voltage drops below the threshold voltage required to turn the transistor on?. Answer this by using your quoted operation of a JT
Lets have a close look at your operation description.
    1. Initially the transistor is off.
    2. A small amount of electricity goes through the resistor and the first coil to the base of the transistor. This partially opens up the collector-emitter channel. Electricity is now able to travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    3. The increasing amount of electricity through the second coil generates a magnetic field that induces a greater amount of electricity in the first coil.

Ok,so right from the start,the battery voltage must be slightly more than the voltage required to start to open the C/E junction of the transistor(the required base voltage). With a 2n3055 this voltage is 700mV as per spec's.
Now lets look at the last part of your operating description.
Quote: 12. The built up energy goes through the load in a big spike. Once the energy is dissipated, the circuit is effectively reset and starts the whole process all over again.

So MH,dont take the copout route--explain to everyone here,how the circuit continues to operate once the battery voltage falls below the switch on threshold voltage of the transistor?.
For example(which i have provided proof of operation),my last circuit(that you claim to be a different variation of your JT circuit)uses a 2n3055 transistor,and the base voltage required to switch that transistor on is around 700mV(this you can check for your self). So if we use your operating description,then my circuit should stop working once the battery voltage is close to that 700mV needed to switch on the transistor. But as everyone can see here,it is happy to keep running on a supply voltage less than 250mV :o.

So like i said MH,your operation description of how the JT works is incorrect,and the evidence speaks for it self.

 
Quote
We are going to get this right for your benefit and for others' benefit without the  needless BS and fake psychodrama.

Your darn right we are,and as can be clearly seen MH--you are posting incorrect operations of how the circuit work's. The only one leading people astray here MH,is you,and your incorrect operation explanations of how the JT work's.

Quote
12. The built up energy goes through the load in a big spike. Once the energy is dissipated, the circuit is effectively reset and starts the whole process all over again.

This is absolute bollocks,and i have proven it to be in my last video.
If you want people to learn the correct operations of a JT circuit MH,then i recommend you go and do some more home work your self,as the operation you stated is clearly wrong--and the fact that you refuse to answer my question's, speaks volume's in your actual knowledge of how JT circuits actually work.

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 06:15:17 AM
For those interested,here is a variation of my last circuit.
This one is far more efficient than the last,as far as light output verses P/in go's.
This circuit drives the LED via L2 instead of L1


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 09:38:52 AM
A quick video on the circuit above.
The 10k VR has been omitted.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCnT6C7T81o


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: hoptoad on February 17, 2016, 10:14:56 AM
A quick video on the circuit above.
The 10k VR has been omitted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCnT6C7T81o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCnT6C7T81o)
Brad
Perfect demonstration. Though, to really top it off you could have shown the 2n3055 in standard current control mode with a led connected to its collector back to a separate continual voltage source with a high enough voltage (3.6V?) to drive the led if the transistor turns on, and then connect your 236mV directly to the base. Connect with the emitter sharing the negative rail of each separate voltage source.

Obviously nothing will happen until you wind the 236mv up to 720mV. Comparative circuits really hit the message home. It would show clearly that without the L(& C) components of the circuit, nothing will happen until the base threshold voltage is attained. The ball's in MH court, but I think he'll just dribble with it rather than score any goals.

Cheers Tinman, keep up your enthusiastic exploration.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 10:37:25 AM
Okay Brad so you say I have gotten it all wrong and you say you are the one that is right.   You asked me how a Joule Thief works.  I have linked to videos and references from the web, and I have discussed various aspects of how a Joule Thief works throughout the thread.

Here is the main YouTube clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg)

Then look at the following postings:

230
255
257
258
267

Also post #197 and there is a small error in that post.

I state "Time constant #2 = Inductance/(Coil resistance + LED "resistance")"
It should read, "Time constant #2 = Inductance/(Battery resistance + Coil resistance + LED "resistance")"

Anybody that has a basic understanding of electronics will be able to understand how a Joule Thief works by reading the provided information and watching the main clip.  So there is your explanation.

So, since I supposedly have goten it all wrong, the YouTube clip must be wrong, and the web sources that I linked to must be wrong, and the information that I added above must be wrong.

Okay, here is your opportunity to get it right.  Please explain to the readers exactly  how a Joule Thief works using any sources of information you want.   That is the big issue.  I will be happy to respond to all outstanding questions that you have posed to me, but let's get the big stuff done first.

The floor is yours:  Please explain to the readers exactly how a Joule Thief works.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 17, 2016, 11:15:03 AM
Also post #197 and there is a small error in that post.

I state "Time constant #2 = Inductance/(Coil resistance + LED "resistance")"

It should read, "Time constant #2 = Inductance/(Battery resistance + Coil resistance + LED "resistance")"

MileHigh

your awareness of the battery resistance and how it affects the circuit is an important step in understanding all of the processes that are involved.
However one should not lose sight of the effects of the magnetic ferrite in this situation. It acts as a resistance in one instance, and a capacitance in the other.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 11:22:47 AM


Here is the main YouTube clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg)

Then look at the following postings:

230
255
257
258
267

Also post #197 and there is a small error in that post.

I state "Time constant #2 = Inductance/(Coil resistance + LED "resistance")"
It should read, "Time constant #2 = Inductance/(Battery resistance + Coil resistance + LED "resistance")"

Anybody that has a basic understanding of electronics will be able to understand how a Joule Thief works by reading the provided information and watching the main clip.  So there is your explanation.

 and the web sources that I linked to must be wrong, and the information that I added above must be wrong.

Okay, here is your opportunity to get it right.  Please explain to the readers exactly  how a Joule Thief works using any sources of information you want.   That is the big issue.  I will be happy to respond to all outstanding questions that you have posed to me, but let's get the big stuff done first.

The floor is yours:  Please explain to the readers exactly how a Joule Thief works.

MileHigh

Quote
Okay Brad so you say I have gotten it all wrong and you say you are the one that is right.   You asked me how a Joule Thief works.  I have linked to videos and references from the web, and I have discussed various aspects of how a Joule Thief works throughout the thread.

And i have shown time and time again,that the cycle is not restarted by the battery--it just cannot once the battery voltage falls below the voltage required to switch on the transistor. Surely you understand this MH,or are you going to continually just copy and past incorrect information found on the internet ?.

It's a simple question MH--how is it that i have 720mV being delivered to the base of my transistor,and yet only have a supply voltage of around 250mV?. How can it be the battery(supply voltage) that is switching on the transistor ?.

Quote
So, since I supposedly have goten it all wrong, the YouTube clip must be wrong,

Yes,the youtube clip is wrong,and because you just believe in what some one else is telling you,then you to are wrong. Go and listen to your video again MH,right at the end of the first cycle-->5 minute mark,where he state's--Quote: Once the magnetic field is all gone,there is no more current for the LED,and it turn's off.And we wait for the battery voltage to start opening the base to emitter gate again,to start the whole cycle over again.

Now,with that information MH, please explain as to how the battery can open the base/emitter gate,when that battery voltage falls below the required base voltage of the transistor for it to switch on?.

Like i said,you,your video,and provided operation information are wrong,and i have show this a number of times now with actual working devices. It simply dose not work that way,and cannot work that way once the battery voltage falls below the required switch on voltage of the transistor.

Please go and do a little more research before providing more incorrect information.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 11:24:37 AM
your awareness of the battery resistance and how it affects the circuit is an important step in understanding all of the processes that are involved.
However one should not lose sight of the effects of the magnetic ferrite in this situation. It acts as a resistance in one instance, and a capacitance in the other.

I would also add smOky2,that the transistors junction capacitance also plays a vital role in the operation of most of the JT circuit's.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 11:33:37 AM
The answer to your question is that the turns ratio in the Joule Thief transformer allows the feedback coil that drives the base resistor to amplify the voltage that is across the main coil that drives the LED.  In your recent setup you used an 8:1 turns ration such that the low battery voltage can be multiplied by eight so that you can still switch on the transistor.

Now that your question has been answered, the floor is yours.

Please explain to the readers exactly how a Joule Thief works.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 17, 2016, 11:41:55 AM
I would also add smOky2,that the transistors junction capacitance also plays a vital role in the operation of most of the JT circuit's.


Brad

as well as the "C" of the diode, and the smaller "C" formed by the reverse-bias impulse across the battery.

 a comment about the YT video: with the 10k TrimPot removed, the base connector is seeing only the resistance of the coil and the wire that connects coil to base. this is a very low "R", and as thus, the voltage at the base is at a more maximum value, more so than when you turned the variable resistor "all the way down". If we used a superconductor here, the base voltage would approach the "ideal" voltage calculated by the number of (-) number of turns * area of coil * (change in B/ change in T) of the inductor w ferrite during the discharge part of the cycle.
This seems to defy the concept of linear time, because this voltage is required prior to the charging of the inductor.
But as we can see, by single-fire pulse analysis, this actually occurs.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 17, 2016, 12:07:04 PM
I find this discussion highly amusing. Because you're both right, and you're both wrong, about the same and different things. The blocking oscillator is the key.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (as far as I remember) is transistor saturation. TinMan's circuit (the SSG one with the pot) is a good one to demonstrate what happens when the base is overdriven higher than the collector. The system can stop oscillating because the transistor stays off (Vb too low) or because it stays on (Vb too high). TinMan's 8:1 transformer circuit can overdrive the base in certain circumstances. Depending on the input voltage, the pot can be adjusted to a "sweet spot" where the LED is brightest; too much resistance stops oscillation by underdriving, too little resistance stops oscillation by driving to saturation. This effect may be easier to see with other NPN transistors rather than the 2n3055.

The 3055 transistor is "kicked" into oscillation in the first place even though the voltage supplied seems too low, by ... wait for it... .stray capacitance. Once it starts oscillating, then it's getting plenty of base voltage because of the 8:1 transformer. Again, this effect may be easier to see with other transistors, which will need more stray capacitance to start oscillating (like by touching the Collector or Emitter lead with a finger or a small cap lead.) And all 2n3055s are not created equal... this is an extremely common transistor to be "faked" by unscrupulous Chinese sources. Performance varies wildly.

There is also a big difference between powering one of these circuits with a voltage-regulated power supply, and a battery whose voltage will vary as the circuit oscillates between On and Off states. Personally, I do not trust the meters on power supplies for anything other than a rough estimate. Connecting one scope probe across the power supply while testing these circuits to see what it's really doing can be ... surprising, especially at very low voltages.

The last two variants (LEDs connected "across coil" vs "C to E") that TinMan shows are also the same as those shown by Mags back up in the thread as "wrong" and "right" except that the SSG coil connection is used rather than the center-tapped "standard" version. A blocking oscillator by any other name is still a blocking oscillator.

I don't like to get involved in "theory" discussions, because there are many levels of analysis possible and everybody's got a "theory". What matters to me is whether or not something works, and how changes affect the workings. "Just the facts, ma'am". But proper testing often uncovers facts that might make some people revise their theories.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 12:09:42 PM
Brad:

For the sake of completeness, I will respond to this:

Quote
Yes,the youtube clip is wrong,and because you just believe in what some one else is telling you,then you to are wrong. Go and listen to your video again MH,right at the end of the first cycle-->5 minute mark,where he state's--Quote: Once the magnetic field is all gone,there is no more current for the LED,and it turn's off.And we wait for the battery voltage to start opening the base to emitter gate again,to start the whole cycle over again.

Now,with that information MH, please explain as to how the battery can open the base/emitter gate,when that battery voltage falls below the required base voltage of the transistor for it to switch on?.

Well you missed it in the video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg)

Starting at 2:45 he says, "An interesting feedback happens during the time the red coil is creating a magnetic field.  That changing magnetic field induces a voltage in the green coil.  What's good is that the voltage is in the right direction to add to the voltage already being provided by the battery."

What is not too clear in the video is that all of this needs an initial "kick" to get started when the battery voltage is less than the switch-on voltage for the transistor base-emitter diode.  That is explained in the attached annotated Joule Thief schematic.  The sudden voltage drop at TP2 will be amplified by the turns ratio and become a sudden voltage increase at TP1 switching the transistor ON.

NOTE:  The YouTube video does not deal with the case when the battery voltage is less than the switch-on voltage of the transistor for the sake of simplicity.

NOTE:  Also in post #267 I state this:  "
Then for both Joule Thiefs and feedback oscillators if they start at a higher voltage and run continuously they can keep on running lower than the minimum self-start voltage and keep on running to some minimum operating voltage.  As long as the oscillation takes place the circuit can stay alive."

Now Brad, the floor is yours.

Please explain to the readers exactly how a Joule Thief works.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 12:26:34 PM


Now that your question has been answered, the floor is yours.

Please explain to the readers exactly how a Joule Thief works.

Quote
The answer to your question is that the turns ratio in the Joule Thief transformer allows the feedback coil that drives the base resistor to amplify the voltage that is across the main coil that drives the LED.

No MH. We are talking about !your! JT circuit. Lets say the battery voltage is down to 300mV,the transistors required base voltage for switch on is 700mV-->how dose the transistor switch on by way of the battery voltage alone--as described in your video and provided paper work?.
Nothing can be amplified MH,until the transistor starts to switch on--no current flows through any coil until the transistor starts to conduct.
So answer the question MH-how can 300mV switch on a transistor that requires a minimum of 700mV to switch on?.

Quote
In your recent setup you used an 8:1 turns ration such that the low battery voltage can be multiplied by eight so that you can still switch on the transistor.

Well we all knew that MH--what is your point?
Once again--how dose my setup work,and how is it just another variation of the !your! JT circuit that you claim it to be?.

You asked me to read your posted explanation's, watch the video you posted. I did that MH,and they are both wrong. The transistor is not switched on by the battery voltage alone when the next cycle start's. If it were,then !your! JT circuit would stop working once the battery voltage dropped below the required voltage needed to switch on the transistor--but it dosnt.

Remember MH--> current will not start to flow until the transistor begins to conduct,and the transistor will only start to conduct once the threshold voltage is reached at the base/emitter junction. Are you saying that--if i use a 2n3055 transistor, that requires 700mV to start to conduct,that your JT circuit will stop running when the battery reaches a voltage less than 700mV ?.
You know as well as i do that it will not stop working once the battery falls below the transistors switch on voltage threshold. With this information,you also know that the video and explanations you have provided for the operation of the JT circuit is incorrect. This is the sole reason you are not answering my questions correctly,but instead,head off on some crooked garden path explanation that makes no sense at all.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: hoptoad on February 17, 2016, 12:29:00 PM
The answer to your question is that the turns ratio in the Joule Thief transformer allows the feedback coil that drives the base resistor to amplify the voltage that is across the main coil that drives the LED.  In your recent setup you used an 8:1 turns ration such that the low battery voltage can be multiplied by eight so that you can still switch on the transistor.

Now that your question has been answered, the floor is yours.

Please explain to the readers exactly how a Joule Thief works.
The problem with your explanation for the specific alternative circuit shown by Tinman, is that , at turn on, no current can flow through the collector junction until the base has been turned on, and by your explanation the base cannot turn on, because no current is induced into the coil that feeds, because no current can flow through the collector coil while the collector junction is open, until the base turns on.

There is no direct source voltage coupling to trigger the base because there is no direct DC connection to the base, only an inductive connection which requires current through the collector coil. A severe case of chicken and egg, unless their is something else in the circuit momentarily allowing the base to initially trigger. That initial trigger mechanism lies in the tiny capacitance in the transistor junction.


Cheers
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 12:34:02 PM
TK:

Quote
The 3055 transistor is "kicked" into oscillation in the first place even though the voltage supplied seems too low, by ... wait for it... .stray capacitance. Once it starts oscillating, then it's getting plenty of base voltage because of the 8:1 transformer. Again, this effect may be easier to see with other transistors, which will need more stray capacitance to start oscillating (like by touching the Collector or Emitter lead with a finger or a small cap lead.) And all 2n3055s are not created equal... this is an extremely common transistor to be "faked" by unscrupulous Chinese sources. Performance varies wildly.

Nope, see my previous posting.  The transistor is initially "kicked" on by pure transformer action.  There is a regenerative cycle (positive feedback) to turn the transistor ON, and a regenerative cycle (positive feedback) to turn the transistor OFF.

Brad, the floor is yours.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 12:40:00 PM
Brad:

For the sake of completeness, I will respond to this:

Well you missed it in the video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg)



 

Now Brad, the floor is yours.

Please explain to the readers exactly how a Joule Thief works.

MileHigh

Quote
Starting at 2:45 he says, "An interesting feedback happens during the time the red coil is creating a magnetic field.  That changing magnetic field induces a voltage in the green coil.  What's good is that the voltage is in the right direction to add to the voltage already being provided by the battery."

Once again MH--he is referring to the cascade effect taking place once the transistor starts to conduct. The driven coil can only amplify the base coil once the transistor start to conduct. The battery send a current through the green coil and resistor to the base of the transistor. Before the transistor can switch on,the voltage being supplied must be the minimum required by the transistor. Once the transistor starts to conduct,current starts to flow through the red coil. This increase the current and voltage flowing through the green coil,and so switches the transistor on even harder. No problem at all with this transformer effect MH,but how dose the transistor start to conduct once the battery voltage falls below that of what is required by the transistor to switch on. This is the part you are missing,and how you are doing that is beyond me. I dont see much skill on your behalf MH playing a role here.

 
Quote
The sudden voltage drop at TP2 will be amplified by the turns ratio and become a sudden voltage increase at TP1 switching the transistor ON.

This alone MH shows us that your supplied information and video's are wrong,and is what i have been trying to tell you for the last two pages on this thread.-->the battery is not solely responsible for switching on the transistor-->and only now are you admitting that i was correct.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 12:41:32 PM
Brad,

At this point the transistor switching ON has been explained.  So forget about the battery voltage issue and please explain to the readers exactly how a regular Joule Thief circuit works.

Now more stalling, no more conditions.  If you continue with that it's going to look like you are stalling and trying to avoid the request.

It's time for you to explain the big picture of exactly how a Joule Thief works.  The floor is yours.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 12:43:19 PM
TK:

Nope, see my previous posting.  The transistor is initially "kicked" on by pure transformer action.  There is a regenerative cycle (positive feedback) to turn the transistor ON, and a regenerative cycle (positive feedback) to turn the transistor OFF.

Brad, the floor is yours.

MileHigh

Dont pull that one MH.
It only took you !how long! to work out that your provided explanations and videos were incorrect,and that i was correct when i said(countless times) that the battery cannot be what is switching on the transistor once the battery voltage falls below that of the required voltage to turn on the transistor.

Great to see you admitting to being incorrect.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 12:48:39 PM
Brad,

The videos are not incorrect.  Forget about all of that now.

You are on stage now, it's your show.  So either put out and tell us exactly how a Joule Thief works or be a BSer and run away like a coward with all talk no action.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 12:50:30 PM
Brad,

At this point the transistor switching ON has been explained.  So forget about the battery voltage issue and please explain to the readers exactly how a regular Joule Thief circuit works.

Now more stalling, no more conditions.  If you continue with that it's going to look like you are stalling and trying to avoid the request.

It's time for you to explain the big picture of exactly how a Joule Thief works.  The floor is yours.

MileHigh

What we had to do first MH,was correct your mistakes in your explanations and video's--so as people can get off on the right foot.

It needs to be made clear that it is not the battery that switches on the transistor once the battery voltage falls below the required switch on voltage of the transistor. The tuning can only start once a  !correct! description is given of the basic workings of a JT(your JT)circuit.

Another thing needs to be explained correctly before we go any further. When you stated-What is not too clear in the video is that all of this needs an initial "kick" to get started.

Not always correct. If the battery voltage is high enough,then the JT circuit will start oscillating as soon as you switch on the battery. If the battery voltage is lower than the required voltage needed to switch the transistor on,then yes,a kickstart is required--a quick emitter/collector short will start the oscillations.


Brad.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 12:53:02 PM
Enough Brad, get on with your show.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 01:02:43 PM
Brad,

The videos are not incorrect.  Forget about all of that now.

You are on stage now, it's your show. 

MileHigh

Quote
So either put out and tell us exactly how a Joule Thief works or be a BSer and run away like a coward with all talk no action.

I have proven that your videos and explanations are incorrect-others will see this MH,so why try and deny it?.
Speaking of all talk and no action-->where are your JT video's MH ?,i cant seem to locate them ::)

It is very clear who is all talk,and who is all action around here MH-->can you guess what one you are?

So far,i have 377 video's up on youtube of my various projects. This of course dose not reflect the time taken to design and build each project. Then there is the time to shoot each video,convert it to a Jpeg format,and upload to youtube. How many hours in total do you think i have spent doing all this MH,while you sit back in your arm chair,and play God.
Who is the talker,and who is the one performing actions?.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: seychelles on February 17, 2016, 01:11:17 PM
well
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: seychelles on February 17, 2016, 01:13:40 PM
NOW THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL A REAL JEWEL THIEF MILE HIGH.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 01:18:02 PM
NOW NOW YOU HAVE BEEN A BAD BOY AGAIN MICROM LOW.. I TOLD MY MOTHER IN LAW ABOUT YOU ML.

Dude--really :o

Could we maybe remove that post and image ?

Cheers

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 01:18:11 PM
I have proven that your videos and explanations are incorrect-others will see this MH,so why try and deny it?.
Speaking of all talk and no action-->where are your JT video's MH ?,i cant seem to locate them ::)

It is very clear who is all talk,and who is all action around here MH-->can you guess what one you are?

So far,i have 377 video's up on youtube of my various projects. This of course dose not reflect the time taken to design and build each project. Then there is the time to shoot each video,convert it to a Jpeg format,and upload to youtube. How many hours in total do you think i have spent doing all this MH,while you sit back in your arm chair,and play God.
Who is the talker,and who is the one performing actions?.

Brad

So you are just using a bunch of stalling and deflection tactics.

Apparently you can't explain to the readers how a Joule Thief works.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 01:38:46 PM
 author=TinselKoala link=topic=8341.msg474430#msg474430 date=1455707224
I find this discussion highly amusing. Because you're both right, and you're both wrong, about the same and different things. The blocking oscillator is the key.


Quote
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (as far as I remember) is transistor saturation. TinMan's circuit (the SSG one with the pot) is a good one to demonstrate what happens when the base is overdriven higher than the collector. The system can stop oscillating because the transistor stays off (Vb too low) or because it stays on (Vb too high).


The 2n3055 is a very robust transistor,and very forgiving as well. As you can see in my last video,the base voltage is 3 times that of the collector voltage,and it still keeps on oscillating quite fine,even with a duty cycle of around 70%--way to high i know.

Quote
And all 2n3055s are not created equal... this is an extremely common transistor to be "faked" by unscrupulous Chinese sources. Performance varies wildly.

The one's i am using start to conduct with a base voltage of 692mV--so very close to the stated 700mV

Quote
The 3055 transistor is "kicked" into oscillation in the first place even though the voltage supplied seems too low, by ... wait for it... .stray capacitance.

I actually have to start mine by a quick shorting of the emitter/collector junction,as there is very little stray capacitance in this simple circuit.

Quote
Once it starts oscillating, then it's getting plenty of base voltage because of the 8:1 transformer.

Indeed,and the very reason for the 8:1 ratio. This circuit is designed to run at very low input voltages. It will still light the LED at 170mV--not bad for a big metal can transistor.

Quote
The last two variants (LEDs connected "across coil" vs "C to E") that TinMan shows are also the same as those shown by Mags back up in the thread as "wrong" and "right" except that the SSG coil connection is used rather than the center-tapped "standard" version. A blocking oscillator by any other name is still a blocking oscillator.


In my last video,i have the LED across the base/emitter,and this is a far more efficient JT than the standard version. The flyback from L2 is a good way to drive the LED,it lowers current draw,and increases light output from the LED.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 02:29:15 PM
So you are just using a bunch of stalling and deflection tactics.

Apparently you can't explain to the readers how a Joule Thief works.

Well i was waiting to see one of your JTs in action MH,but i believe the cobwebs would take over first :D

Which one would you like me to explain,and do i have to explain your JT circuit after countless pages of getting you to see how it actually work's--which is not by way of the battery switching on the transistor as you claimed by way of video's and documented writings.

My JT circuit operates in a different manner to your JT circuit MH,as my two windings are parallel,and not crossed over like your JT circuit has them. You see,the current flow in my L! and L2 is in the same direction when the magnetic field collapses,where as the current flow in your L1 and L2 is in opposite directions when the magnetic field collapses. As you seen in my last video,when the transistor switches off,both L1 at B+, and L2 at the base both go negative,and so cannot switch the transistor on at that point like your JT circuit dose. So what triggers the initial switching of the transistor,so as the 8:1 winding ratio can kick in,and switch on the transistor hard?.  Where could there be a higher voltage potential being stored for the initial switch on of the transistor,due to our very low supply voltage of only 250mV ?.
Im just seeing if your on the ball MH,and not just going to go and have a googlegasm,and post more incorrect information,as we have just all been witness to.

We have not yet covered junction capacitance,and as you refuse to believe that the circuit is actually an RLC due to this transistor junction capacitance,then there really is not much point in going into it--is there?. But i will give you a little information MH. The BC junction output capacitance for the 2n3055 can be as high as 700pF at frequencies 0 to 100KHz,with voltages up to 10 volt's.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 02:51:05 PM
The problem with your explanation for the specific alternative circuit shown by Tinman, is that , at turn on, no current can flow through the collector junction until the base has been turned on, and by your explanation the base cannot turn on, because no current is induced into the coil that feeds, because no current can flow through the collector coil while the collector junction is open, until the base turns on.

There is no direct source voltage coupling to trigger the base because there is no direct DC connection to the base, only an inductive connection which requires current through the collector coil. A severe case of chicken and egg, unless their is something else in the circuit momentarily allowing the base to initially trigger. That initial trigger mechanism lies in the tiny capacitance in the transistor junction.


Cheers

Thank you Hoptoad.
It is good to see some one is on the ball here.
The 2n3055 BC capacitance can get as high as 700pF. This is more than enough to start the transistor conducting.

Internal capacitances are due to the storage of charge at the PN junction's. These PN junctions act just like the plates of a capacitor,where in they can store charge. This stored charge is enough to trigger the transistor when in circuits like my cool joule circuit. This is where the miller effect kicks in,and this stored charge is what switches the transistor on. This charge exist weather or not the transistor is being pulled on harder by a second current input source--such as MH JT circuit. This is the C in the LRC circuit--it exists,and is there.
There is junction capacitance,and diffusion capacitance.
Junction capacitance-where the charge is stored in the depletion region of the PN junction.
Diffusion capacitance--quote wiki: Diffusion Capacitance is the capacitance due to transport of charge carriers between two terminals of a device, for example, the diffusion of carriers from anode to cathode in forward bias mode of a diode or from emitter to baseforward-biased junction for a transistor.
We do not have to worry to much about diffusion capacitance with everyday JT circuit's.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 02:51:28 PM
That's a complete and total fail Brad.  No bait and switch.  Why would a few hundred picofarads of capacitance affect anything?  It's just a rhetorical question.

Just explain to the readers how an ordinary Joule Thief actually works.  How does the timing work and how does the switching work?

The floor is yours.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 03:28:01 PM
Post #288 was edited and text was added in bold to address some of Brad's "objections."

Brad, in the last four or five postings you have dropped the line that you have "corrected my mistakes."

I already addressed this issue in an earlier posting when I said this, "So you are taking a counter-measure strategy where you are doing a "play."  The "play" is to try to feign that I am the one that doesn't understand what is going on, so you are asking me questions.  The backdrop to all of this is that I have been around long enough so that you, and nearly everybody else watching, already has a very decent idea what my knowledge level is."

So don't try to "play" me.  Just get on with it and explain to the readers exactly how a regular Joule Thief works with no muss, no fuss, no misdirection, no bait and switch, no "plays," and no shenanigans.

The floor is yours.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 03:45:17 PM




The floor is yours.

That junction capacitance is enough to make the transistor switch on,and a circuit to oscillate,where there is no inductive coupling between L1 and L2. Myself and many others have proven this,and was also confirmed by MarkE,and worked out by Vortex1. Are you going to argue with all them MH ?--i didnt think so.

Quote
Just explain to the readers how an ordinary Joule Thief actually works.  How does the timing work and how does the switching work?

I have given you two examples of ordinary JT circuit's,that have different operating parameters.
But before you burst a bubble,i will give a quick and simple rundown on the one below--seen as you like it so much. Why im doing this again,i do not know,because we have just spent the best part of 3 days trying to get you to describe the correct switching and operation of the JT circuit you provided.
What do you mean by timing MH ?. If you are referring to frequency,on times,off time's ETC,how can i possibly do that from a picture?. Where is all the information needed to calculate this?--battery voltage,torroid size and grade.wire size and type-ETC ?.
Or,if by timing,you mean how each event takes place for one complete cycle,then that is much the same as how it work's-is it not?.

Before i can give an accurate description of the operation MH,i will need you to provide some information on your transistor. I need to know the required base current and voltage for the transistor to start conducting. Without that,there is no way of giving an accurate operation description,as it can go two way's,and this depends the required current and voltage needed at the base to switch the transistor on. Even if we have the full 1.5 volt's on the battery,the base of the transistor will only receive a maximum current from the battery of 1.5 mA. So for example,if the 2n2222 needs 2mA of current at the base to switch on,then we need a 2v battery-which we do not have. So this would in turn drop the available base voltage down--see what i mean. So i need the required base voltage and current to switch on the 2n2222 transistor. Once you give me that,then i will provide the operation description you so much require.

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 04:00:56 PM
Brad:

If you really believe that the transistor junction capacitance is relevant, then put it into your description.  The schematic shows a 1K base resistor and a 2N2222 transistor but that is not even relevant to the discussion.  Nor are the specifics of the toroid and the windings truly relevant to the discussion.

So don't get hung up on the details and use that as an excuse.  Or if you insist that you need these kinds of details (which you don't) then put in some reasonable values by yourself.

Descriptions of how circuits operate are done without needing to have component specifics all the time.  You saw how I posted three descriptions of how a Joule Thief operates and there were no component specifics.

I am looking forward to reading your complete description of how a standard Joule Thief works.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 17, 2016, 06:23:36 PM
Ive figured that the shorted winding just causes the inductance of the primary and trigger windings to be much lower than without the shorted winding.

In a normal say 60hz transformer, if we short out a winding it causes the primary to pull lots of current from the source. But here it is different because the operating freq of the JT depends on the reactions in the transformer, and with the shorted winding the drive coils inductance is lowered and the circuit self adjusts to operate at a much higher freq. But with a normal 60hz transformer, the input doesnt change so the input current rises hard.

Got the thing to get up to 2.5mhz but at that point the led is fairly dim. Havnt seen any resonant nodes so far. I tried some caps on the 3rd coil and there seems to be certain band widths that the led jumps to a decent brightness and jumps back down when out of that band width. But nothing brighter than normal running.

Id like to make a new thread to work on JT mods experimenting with resonance, but I dont want it to become a thread like this one has become in the past days. And there are sooo many JT threads that Im not sure another should be made.  Stumped on that idea.  If I title the thread for JT Mods Experimenting with resonance, then there shouldnt be any bickering about resonance because the thread should be about how to get the JT to have resonance. But I dont believe that would be enough to keep the thread on target.

Still fiddling with it.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2016, 08:40:52 PM
Ive figured that the shorted winding just causes the inductance of the primary and trigger windings to be much lower than without the shorted winding.

In a normal say 60hz transformer, if we short out a winding it causes the primary to pull lots of current from the source. But here it is different because the operating freq of the JT depends on the reactions in the transformer, and with the shorted winding the drive coils inductance is lowered and the circuit self adjusts to operate at a much higher freq. But with a normal 60hz transformer, the input doesnt change so the input current rises hard.

Got the thing to get up to 2.5mhz but at that point the led is fairly dim. Havnt seen any resonant nodes so far. I tried some caps on the 3rd coil and there seems to be certain band widths that the led jumps to a decent brightness and jumps back down when out of that band width. But nothing brighter than normal running.

Id like to make a new thread to work on JT mods experimenting with resonance, but I dont want it to become a thread like this one has become in the past days. And there are sooo many JT threads that Im not sure another should be made.  Stumped on that idea.  If I title the thread for JT Mods Experimenting with resonance, then there shouldnt be any bickering about resonance because the thread should be about how to get the JT to have resonance. But I dont believe that would be enough to keep the thread on target.

Still fiddling with it.

Mags


There is no resonance in a JT circuit.


Yes there is.


No, there isn't.


Yes there is.


No, there isn't.


Is too.


Is not!


Too!


Not!




Mags, that is what your topic would look like.


Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 17, 2016, 09:11:39 PM
Ive figured that the shorted winding just causes the inductance of the primary and trigger windings to be much lower than without the shorted winding.

In a normal say 60hz transformer, if we short out a winding it causes the primary to pull lots of current from the source. But here it is different because the operating freq of the JT depends on the reactions in the transformer, and with the shorted winding the drive coils inductance is lowered and the circuit self adjusts to operate at a much higher freq. But with a normal 60hz transformer, the input doesnt change so the input current rises hard.

Got the thing to get up to 2.5mhz but at that point the led is fairly dim. Havnt seen any resonant nodes so far. I tried some caps on the 3rd coil and there seems to be certain band widths that the led jumps to a decent brightness and jumps back down when out of that band width. But nothing brighter than normal running.

Id like to make a new thread to work on JT mods experimenting with resonance, but I dont want it to become a thread like this one has become in the past days. And there are sooo many JT threads that Im not sure another should be made.  Stumped on that idea.  If I title the thread for JT Mods Experimenting with resonance, then there shouldnt be any bickering about resonance because the thread should be about how to get the JT to have resonance. But I dont believe that would be enough to keep the thread on target.

Still fiddling with it.

Mags

Moderate your thread mag's,and just remove the junk.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 17, 2016, 09:44:58 PM

Quote from: TK
The 3055 transistor is "kicked" into oscillation in the first place even though the voltage supplied seems too low, by ... wait for it... .stray capacitance. Once it starts oscillating, then it's getting plenty of base voltage because of the 8:1 transformer. Again, this effect may be easier to see with other transistors, which will need more stray capacitance to start oscillating (like by touching the Collector or Emitter lead with a finger or a small cap lead.) And all 2n3055s are not created equal... this is an extremely common transistor to be "faked" by unscrupulous Chinese sources. Performance varies wildly.


TK:

Nope, see my previous posting.  The transistor is initially "kicked" on by pure transformer action.  There is a regenerative cycle (positive feedback) to turn the transistor ON, and a regenerative cycle (positive feedback) to turn the transistor OFF.

Brad, the floor is yours.

MileHigh

You are both correct from different perspectives, in that the feedback IS related to a stray capacitance value.
And while a "current" cannot be measured prior to the transistor switching on, there IS a voltage induced at the base of the transistor.



Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 17, 2016, 10:18:30 PM
unfortunately Bill speaks the wisdom of the ages.

Even if you stated resonance as a prerequisite of experiment,
there would still be those that subject the topic to conjecture, and disinformation.
(I think I may have attempted that at one time, when I was less articulate in discussions of this topic)

I can give you a (generic) set of guidelines, that may vary slightly, depending on the particulars of your design.
That may help identify if your particular circuit is able to converge with resonant nodes of the various parts of the circuit.
an "ideal" situation would be to have every component, and every portion of the circuit at resonance,
however, this is sometimes more difficult that I made it seem in the words of my previous posts.
Mathematically, we can see how this is done, as I have shown.
But in reality, even the tiniest resistances and capacitances from our wiring can change the resultant frequency node, and where it lay on the scale of frequencies the device can operate at.

this is why I recommended using your oscilloscopes

It simplifies the whole ordeal because (provided your scope is of quality) the mathematics are performed for you by the machine.

I recommend starting with the standard setup, (LED in either location), the only modification is the use of a VR instead of the set resistance at the base of the transistor.

1) The first step should be taking the transistor out of digital mode. With a scope across the Emitter and the center tap of the coil,
  adjustments are made to the base resistor until this signal closer resembles a sine-wave, than a sharp peak and long slope.
There is a range in which this occurs, depending on the transistor, this can be a very small range in resistances.
The actual frequency data is available from the manufacturer, labeled: linear mode, or linear freq range, etc.
to give you a guideline of what you are looking for.

2) expand your scope image, so that you can see the fluctuating details within the signal. You don't need to go TOO deep, just enough that the little spikes and whatnot are visible to you on the screen.
   Now, within the range of step 1, so that you don't throw the switch back into digital mode, make adjustments to the base VR,
to attempt to locate nodes that clean up the spikes, a smoothing effect will occur, and you may notice certain of those little spikes getting larger. (this looks like a problem, but let it be, it actually raises the RMS of the total signal amplitude)
What you are doing here, in a sense, is reducing the amount of conflicting feedback, that damages the quality of the signal.
Or as I state it: bringing the system closer to a "total circuit resonance".
or minimizing destructive interference.

3) Pay close attention to the quality of your coils, not just the number of turns, but where the first and last turn begin and end, as well as the straightness of the wire and spacing between coils / slope.
This may seem trivial, but when you examine what this does to the circuit, imperfections create variances in capacitance and inductance along the length of the coil. This can destroy some of the effects of positive feedback.

There are more, most of which I have already gone over last week, so will not regurgitate here.
But an important thing to remember, about resonance:
Your scope is your friend, scoping multiple parts of the circuit and comparing changes in one, to changes in the other.
This will assist in  identifying destructive interference (negative feedback), and otherwise signal disrupting events occurring within the circuit.

Quality is important, not just peak values.
resonance has pure qualities, an inverse or reflection of itself.
anything other than that is disruptive.




Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 11:03:44 PM
Yes I think it would make perfect sense for Magluvin to make a thread called "Joule Thief in Resonance Mode" or something akin to that and give it a go.

I would only ask Magluvin when he has his Joule Thief operating normally that he post a nice scope shot of TP1 and TP2 like was previously discussed.

I for one will assure you that I won't touch it or I will barely touch it because I am only interested in seeing if it is going to be possible for this thread to reach its logical conclusion and arrive at an understanding about how a Joule Thief really works.

I will just repeat from here that if the hacked Joule Thief manages to oscillate or resonate the big questions will be "So what?" and "What's next?"  In the long run "finding the delicate balance of resonance in a Joule Thief" will mean absolutely nothing.  Instead of twisting pots and fiddling with your coil like Smoky2 is saying, you may as well look up a single-transistor based oscillator and put it together and you are done.

Or perhaps there is something out there and "they" don't want you to know.  After all, the X-Files is coming back on TV.

The whole thing is nothing more than chasing the resonance fetish and as if you were going to strike gold or something.  It's nothing more than fool's gold.

So, presuming that Magluvin makes another thread and sees sine waves on his scope with a Joule Thief circuit, are big things supposed to happen?  Super efficiency?

The real question will be whether or not the proponents of a "resonant Joule Thief" will account for the final results or will the thread just die with the key players just "running away" for lack of a better term.

A "resonant Joule Thief?"  Bring it on and I will watch from the peanut gallery.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 11:14:14 PM
Brad:

So the ball is still in your court.  You mentioned stuff about transistor junction capacitance and "RLC."

Please explain exactly how a regular Joule Thief works and give it your best shot and leave no stone upturned.

The floor is yours.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 18, 2016, 06:53:15 PM
Below is MH test point scope shot.

Also a shot of the circuit running at 320mv and a pic of the led. looks brighter on camera. (Mislabeled (named) the 320mv pics as 360mv.)

And a pic of another transformer or say filter choke from a pc power supply.

Also a shot of the original test point at 100kohm showing a dip after led pulse. Then another showing something resembling a sine at about 160kohm. Will do more and also with the original transformer I made.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 18, 2016, 10:16:28 PM

 Bring it on and I will watch from the peanut gallery.

MileHigh

So, despite the mathematics, and solid foundations in electronics theory,
despite all that has thus been discussed here,

you set in stone your ridiculous opinion, before even considering the experimentation?
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 18, 2016, 10:16:31 PM
Magluvin:

Thanks for the scope shot.  You can see the how the Joule Thief transformer is an inverting transformer relative to the two test points.  If I assume that the winding is a 1:1 ratio then I can even see the battery voltage in the scope shot.  The LED voltage peaks at about 6.5 volts and the feedback volage peaks at about -5.3 volts.  So the battery voltage must be about 1.2 volts.

More importantly, this scope shot of a Joule Thief operating normally confirms everything I said about how it operates including the copy-paste articles.  There is no "resonance," there is just the energizing cycle time and then the discharge into the LED cycle time.  Add those two values together and invert it and you get the operating frequency for the Joule Thief.  The positive-feedback "snap ON" and "snap OFF" events are nice clean very-high-slew-rate events.  Finally you can see it is running at a nice "low" frequency of 4.2 kHz.

You can also see that potential issue that I raised on the other thread.  How bright is the LED at 6.5 volts?  (Actually the LED is probably over-driven at 6.5 volts and and you are getting less bang for your current buck at that operating point.  The LED would probably burn up with a constant 6.5 volts across it.)  How bright is the LED at 5 volts?  How bright is the LED at 3.8 volts?  Is this an issue?  Is the decaying voltage/current discharge curve though the LED resulting in a lot of "lost" inductor energy that is not really contributing to the brightness of the LED?  If so, how can you improve upon this?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 18, 2016, 10:26:31 PM
Try to clean that up
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 18, 2016, 10:39:20 PM
So, despite the mathematics, and solid foundations in electronics theory,
despite all that has thus been discussed here,

you set in stone your ridiculous opinion, before even considering the experimentation?

Honestly, I could slice and dice your technical comments apart if I wanted to.  I think that you are just being a poseur throwing out some technical terms and making a tired worn-out resonance play.  Why don't you sketch out various "resonance" waveforms for Magluvin ahead of time so he knows what to expect and where to look for them?  Why don't you explain the multiple resonance instances that you alluded to and explain where they are and what and where each of the two resonating components are in each instance?  Or do you just want to sit back and watch the experimenters fiddle with pots and comment when you think someone has "struck" resonance?  Why should an experimenter have to "hunt" for resonance and find some "special delicate balance" if you have been pitching it all this time?  If I strike a bell it resonates.  What kind of "special" or "remarkable" results should Magluvin and others get if they "strike resonance?"  What are they supposed to see?

If Magluvin or anyone else succeeds in achieving something remarkable with a Joule Thief in "resonance" and explains what is actually taking place instead of just observing something, I will be happy to admit that I was wrong and acknowledge that something special is taking place due to the resonance.

On the other hand, if all that Magluvin or others can get is mushy wobbly scope traces that are difficult to explain and don't clearly show "resonance" and yield unremarkable power-in to LED-illumination-out results (or any other metric you want to define), what are YOU going to do?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 18, 2016, 10:58:37 PM
Magluvin and other Joule Thief enthusiasts:

I reattached Magluvin's second scope shot to this posting.  Clearly a Joule Thief when running at a very low battery voltage does not operate in the standard switching mode as shown in his first scope capture.  I certainly can't explain what I am seeing.  I think that we have all seen similar scope captures of Joule Thieves running at very low battery voltages in the past - but most people have never seriously questioned what they were looking at.  Clearly something different is happening and it's happening at a much higher frequency than the normal operating frequency.

So do you just observe this, or, do you try to explain it and understand it completely?  If you can figure it out and explain it will you will get some satisfaction from that and in addition perhaps that new knowledge will give you more insight into trying to get a Joule Thief to resonate?

The good news is that you can slowly lower the supply voltage and observe how the waveforms change and that will help you a lot in determining what is taking place.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 18, 2016, 11:01:22 PM
Magluvin:

Thanks for the scope shot.  You can see the how the Joule Thief transformer is an inverting transformer relative to the two test points.  If I assume that the winding is a 1:1 ratio then I can even see the battery voltage in the scope shot.  The LED voltage peaks at about 6.5 volts and the feedback volage peaks at about -5.3 volts.  So the battery voltage must be about 1.2 volts.

More importantly, this scope shot of a Joule Thief operating normally confirms everything I said about how it operates including the copy-paste articles.  There is no "resonance," there is just the energizing cycle time and then the discharge into the LED cycle time.  Add those two values together and invert it and you get the operating frequency for the Joule Thief.  The positive-feedback "snap ON" and "snap OFF" events are nice clean very-high-slew-rate events.  Finally you can see it is running at a nice "low" frequency of 4.2 kHz.

You can also see that potential issue that I raised on the other thread.  How bright is the LED at 6.5 volts?  (Actually the LED is probably over-driven at 6.5 volts and and you are getting less bang for your current buck at that operating point.  The LED would probably burn up with a constant 6.5 volts across it.)  How bright is the LED at 5 volts?  How bright is the LED at 3.8 volts?  Is this an issue?  Is the decaying voltage/current discharge curve though the LED resulting in a lot of "lost" inductor energy that is not really contributing to the brightness of the LED?  If so, how can you improve upon this?

MileHigh

No problem.

Well sure there is no resonance, yet. ;) I dont think anyone has said that there is resonance going on in a normal JT.  That is why we are modding the thing to get it to do so. 

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 18, 2016, 11:07:30 PM
Try to clean that up

Will give it a go.  Need to increase the resistance a bit more, and slowly scan the pot and watch for what you are asking for. My 10k 10 turn broke internally. Have a 1k 10 turn that Ill put in series with a larger 100k pot and a 100k resistor and use the 100k as a course set and the 1k a a fine tune.

Thanks  ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 18, 2016, 11:10:59 PM
Honestly, I could slice and dice your technical comments apart if I wanted to.  I think that you are just being a poseur throwing out some technical terms and making a tired worn-out resonance play.  Why don't you sketch out various "resonance" waveforms for Magluvin ahead of time so he knows what to expect and where to look for them?  Why don't you explain the multiple resonance instances that you alluded to and explain where they are and what and where each of the two resonating components are in each instance?  Or do you just want to sit back and watch the experimenters fiddle with pots and comment when you think someone has "struck" resonance?  Why should an experimenter have to "hunt" for resonance and find some "special delicate balance" if you have been pitching it all this time?  If I strike a bell it resonates.  What kind of "special" or "remarkable" results should Magluvin and others get if they "strike resonance?"  What are they supposed to see?

If Magluvin or anyone else succeeds in achieving something remarkable with a Joule Thief in "resonance" and explains what is actually taking place instead of just observing something, I will be happy to admit that I was wrong and acknowledge that something special is taking place due to the resonance.

On the other hand, if all that Magluvin or others can get is mushy wobbly scope traces that are difficult to explain and don't clearly show "resonance" and yield unremarkable power-in to LED-illumination-out results (or any other metric you want to define), what are YOU going to do?

MileHigh

Well like Smoky said, it has to be fine tuned to search for resonant nodes. They could be within very tiny adjustments of the pots and could pass and miss it if not careful, and I totally understand that.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 18, 2016, 11:46:23 PM
Well like Smoky said, it has to be fine tuned to search for resonant nodes. They could be within very tiny adjustments of the pots and could pass and miss it if not careful, and I totally understand that.

Mags

Yes that sounds fine and like I said, I am not really going to be involved in the resonance discussion.  The question of how a Joule Thief works in its normal operating mode has been answered and there was enough information covered over the past two weeks such that all the information is there if you want to do the reading and the research.

But at least let's look at a rough mechanical analogy for a resonant circuit and this would also apply to a hacked Joule Thief running in some kind of resonant mode.

Suppose you are in a museum and you come across a kinetic sculpture that demonstrates resonance.  You are looking at a big box-like open-air metal frame.  Attached to the frame are all sorts of springs with different sized weights attached, there are thin rectangular metal bars attached to the frame on one side only, bells, tuning forks, sheets of tin, and so on.  It looks like a small metal junkyard in 3D space and it stands about 10 feet high.  It looks like a shambles.

You can see how the base of the metal frame sits on four big springs.  There is a big variac that allows you adjust the speed of a 1/2 horsepower motor.  You notice the motor is in the center of the sculpture off to one side and there is a big off-balanced flywheel attached to the motor.

So when you play with the variac the spinning flywheel on the motor shaft makes the whole thing shake into a frenzied shambles at different frequencies.  You find different resonant frequencies for different things on the sculpture as the the whole crazy sculpture shakes and rattles.

However, you notice at each resonant frequency that whatever component is resonating will reache a certain maximum resonant amplitude and THAT'S IT - the sculpture doesn't shake it self apart and explode.  Rather, different components reach a maximum resonating amplitude where the losses equal and balance out with the supplied power - balance.

The sculpture never shakes itself apart because the resonating components always have losses that burn off the supplied vibratory mechanical power coming from the motor-flywheel.

And any electrical circuit operates in EXACTLY the same way.  A resonating Joule Thief will simply reach a resonant amplitude where the resonant AC currents will burn off power and be in balance with the supplied power.  In other words, a resonating Joule Thief will have a TON of i-squared-R looses and that will take power AWAY from lighting the LED.

The whole concept of a "resonating Joule Thief" is not exciting at all.

But I will leave it up to the experimenters to determine that for themselves, or I will admit that I was wrong the whole time if credible remarkable results are reported.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Lidmotor on February 18, 2016, 11:59:37 PM
I replicated Tinman's low voltage circuit today and it does run well below 200mV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eup3iaHS5Oo
 I used an MPSA18 instead of a 2N3055.  Maybe this will help you guys and maybe it won't but it was pretty cool seeing an led light up at that low a voltage.  Thanks for the discussion going on here. It is very interesting.

-----Lidmotor

PS --I asked my friends Hewey, Dewey, and Lewey if they they like to resonate. 
All I got was a blank stare.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 19, 2016, 12:35:53 AM
I replicated Tinman's low voltage circuit today and it does run well below 200mV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eup3iaHS5Oo
 I used an MPSA18 instead of a 2N3055.  Maybe this will help you guys and maybe it won't but it was pretty cool seeing an led light up at that low a voltage.  Thanks for the discussion going on here. It is very interesting.

-----Lidmotor

PS --I asked my friends Hewey, Dewey, and Lewey if they they like to resonate. 
All I got was a blank stare.

Thanks for the replication--great job as always ;)

Brad

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 19, 2016, 12:56:03 AM
Magluvin and other Joule Thief enthusiasts:

  I think that we have all seen similar scope captures of Joule Thieves running at very low battery voltages in the past - but most people have never seriously questioned what they were looking at.  Clearly something different is happening and it's happening at a much higher frequency than the normal operating frequency.

So do you just observe this, or, do you try to explain it and understand it completely?  If you can figure it out and explain it will you will get some satisfaction from that and in addition perhaps that new knowledge will give you more insight into trying to get a Joule Thief to resonate?

The good news is that you can slowly lower the supply voltage and observe how the waveforms change and that will help you a lot in determining what is taking place.

MileHigh

Quote
I reattached Magluvin's second scope shot to this posting.  Clearly a Joule Thief when running at a very low battery voltage does not operate in the standard switching mode as shown in his first scope capture.


MH
You do understand that a JT circuit is meant to operate at very low voltages?. I mean,that is what the JT is all about--taking the last bit of energy from an almost dead battery. Why are you talking about standard switchmode operation,when we are all talking about how the circuit operates at the low voltages we want them to run at.

Quote
I certainly can't explain what I am seeing.


Post 316-Quote: You mentioned stuff about transistor junction capacitance and "RLC."
Of course you cant,as you refuse to accept that the circuit !is! an RLC circuit. As long as you continue to exclude the C in RLC,then you will never understand as to how !your! JT circuit can run on voltages well below that of the threshold voltage required to switch on the transistor.

Take another look at Mag's scope shot that has you confused. What is the threshold voltage required by the transistor Mag's is using to switch on?. If the supply voltage to the JT is 320mV,then how come we see a higher voltage during the on time portion in the scope shot?.

Dont panic MH,i am putting together all the information you required from me on the workings of a JT !!at low voltages!, as that is what JT's are all about. Yesterday was just a big headf--k day,as i had doctors appointments,Xrays--all that crap. But i'll be back onto it today--just doing the video and scope shot's to go with the explained workings of the JT (your JT) circuit.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: AlienGrey on February 19, 2016, 01:43:12 AM
Have a look at this one, once it's started i doesn't need a battery, see if you can copy it ! ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 19, 2016, 01:49:21 AM
Have a look at this one, once it's started i doesn't need a battery, see if you can copy it ! ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40)

I think the battery is in the hollowed out ceramic resistor and he uses the pizo clicking sound to mask the sound of his flipping the ON switch from his hidden battery that just happens to go out of camera view when it is switched on.

That is my take...any others?

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: AlienGrey on February 19, 2016, 02:22:19 AM
the device has a coil going through the mine toroid coil you dont think it could  be 1/4 wave ie 4 x f then ? he does say the device is a mos fet and not a juction tranie.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 19, 2016, 03:08:44 AM
the device has a coil going through the mine toroid coil you dont think it could  be 1/4 wave ie 4 x f then ? he does say the device is a mos fet and not a juction tranie.

I don't know, I am just guessing and that was my opinion as I mentioned.  I just do not think that that device runs itself.  I mean, I had a large ballast resistor on my 440 magnum 1970 high performance engine.  Why would you need such a huge resistor on a little board like that with those other dinky components?

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 19, 2016, 04:11:09 AM
Brad:

Quote
You do understand that a JT circuit is meant to operate at very low voltages?. I mean,that is what the JT is all about--taking the last bit of energy from an almost dead battery. Why are you talking about standard switchmode operation,when we are all talking about how the circuit operates at the low voltages we want them to run at.

This is just another bait and switch.  You have probably tried to pull off about 20 bait and switches in this thread so far and every time you do that you compromise your integrity.  When is it going to stop?

Quote
Post 316-Quote: You mentioned stuff about transistor junction capacitance and "RLC."
Of course you cant,as you refuse to accept that the circuit !is! an RLC circuit. As long as you continue to exclude the C in RLC,then you will never understand as to how !your! JT circuit can run on voltages well below that of the threshold voltage required to switch on the transistor.

Take another look at Mag's scope shot that has you confused. What is the threshold voltage required by the transistor Mag's is using to switch on?. If the supply voltage to the JT is 320mV,then how come we see a higher voltage during the on time portion in the scope shot?.

This is just another "play" which also compromises your integrity.

Quote
Dont panic MH,i am putting together all the information you required from me on the workings of a JT !!at low voltages!

Don't do yet another bait and switch.  Do what you are supposed to do, explain how a standard Joule Thief circuit works.  If you want to go beyond that and describe more stuff then fine, but start by describing how a standard Joule Thief circuit works.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 19, 2016, 04:17:05 AM
I replicated Tinman's low voltage circuit today and it does run well below 200mV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eup3iaHS5Oo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eup3iaHS5Oo)
 I used an MPSA18 instead of a 2N3055.  Maybe this will help you guys and maybe it won't but it was pretty cool seeing an led light up at that low a voltage.  Thanks for the discussion going on here. It is very interesting.

-----Lidmotor

PS --I asked my friends Hewey, Dewey, and Lewey if they they like to resonate. 
All I got was a blank stare.

Wow, a home-made version of a gold-leaf electroscope.  That is the first time I have seen that!  You are the "MacGyver" of experimenters.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 19, 2016, 04:49:38 AM
Wow, a home-made version of a gold-leaf electroscope.  That is the first time I have seen that!  You are the "MacGyver" of experimenters.

MileHigh

He truly is.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 19, 2016, 06:26:53 AM
Brad:

For the sake of completeness, I will respond to this:

Well you missed it in the video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg)



[/b] 

NOTE:  The YouTube video does not deal with the case when the battery voltage is less than the switch-on voltage of the transistor for the sake of simplicity.

NOTE:  Also in post #267 I state this:  "
Then for both Joule Thiefs and feedback oscillators if they start at a higher voltage and run continuously they can keep on running lower than the minimum self-start voltage and keep on running to some minimum operating voltage.  As long as the oscillation takes place the circuit can stay alive."

Now Brad, the floor is yours.

Please explain to the readers exactly how a Joule Thief works.

MileHigh

Lets have a look at what you believe to be the timing and operation of your JT circuit MH.

Quote
Starting at 2:45 he says, "An interesting feedback happens during the time the red coil is creating a magnetic field.  That changing magnetic field induces a voltage in the green coil.  What's good is that the voltage is in the right direction to add to the voltage already being provided by the battery."

No,-no voltage is added to the green coil that go's to base,as the red coil cannot create a magnetic field until the transistor has already began to conduct.

Quote
What is not too clear in the video is that all of this needs an initial "kick" to get started when the battery voltage is less than the switch-on voltage for the transistor base-emitter diode.

No,that is incorrect with your JT circuit MH. The circuit will start even if the battery voltage is below that of the required switch on voltage of the transistor--as can be seen in my up and coming video.

Quote
That is explained in the attached annotated Joule Thief schematic.  The sudden voltage drop at TP2 will be amplified by the turns ratio and become a sudden voltage increase at TP1 switching the transistor ON.

No-again incorrect. The flyback from the red coil(L1) is what pulls the transistor off--not on. The green coil(L2) is wound in the wrong direction to pull the transistor on when L1 is switched off,and we get the flyback spike across L1 to drive the LED.

As can be seen in the scope shot below,all of the flyback energy in L1 is dissipated before the transistor once again switches on. This is because the flyback energy from L1 is what is pulling the base of the transistor down(keeping it off).

You continually ignore the junction capacitance of the transistor MH,and this is why you cannot understand as to how the circuit actually work's. Current flows through L2 before any current flows through L1, so L2 is the coil that starts to create the magnetic field within the toroid core first-not L1. Current can flow in L2 before the emitter/collector junction starts to open,due to the junction capacitance in the transistor. This in turn creates a voltage potential in L1 that is opposite that to L2,and add's to the voltage being supplied to the base of the transistor via the base/collector junction capacitor/capacitance. Although very small in capacity,it is enough to get the emitter/collector junction to start to open. Once this happen's,then a stronger magnetic field starts to build in the toroid. Now you start to get your transformer action between L1 and L2,and this then starts to pull the transistor on hard. The magnetic field builds to a point where the available current can no longer keep the magnetic field amplitude rising,or the core reaches a point of saturation,and the induced current in L2 stop's. The magnetic field begins to collapse due to the transistor no longer receiving enough current,and begins to switch off. As the magnetic field is now decreasing in strength,a reverse current flow is produced in L2,and this pulls the transistor hard off--as can be seen in the scope shot below.Some of this stored energy in L1 is used to drive the LED,and the rest is used to pull the transistor down/off. Once all the stored energy in L1 has been depleted,and no longer can hold the transistor off,the cycle starts all over again.

This is why your JT circuit is not very efficient MH,as most of the stored energy in the magnetic field that we want to use to drive the LED, is fighting against the energy being supplied by the battery ,to keep the transistor switched off. So the battery is trying to switch the transistor on,and the flyback energy is trying to keep the transistor switch off. This is why i like to use circuit's that disconnect the battery during the flyback part of the cycle.


Brad.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 19, 2016, 07:30:21 AM
Here is one of them WTF moments when your fooling around with circuits.
The circuit is as below,but i am now supplying the circuit with a voltage of 1 volt.
Looking at the scope shots,it appears that the transistor is still switched on after the inductive kickback spike starts ???


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 19, 2016, 09:11:54 AM
Brad:

Quote
Lets have a look at what you believe to be the timing and operation of your JT circuit MH

I am not going to even argue about the two positive-feedback regenerative cycles in a Joule Thief that snap the transistor ON and snap the transistor OFF.  It's a done deal and has been explained properly.   If you want to make a point, then I look forward to your description of how a standard Joule Thief works.

Quote
As can be seen in the scope shot below,all of the flyback energy in L1 is dissipated before the transistor once again switches on. This is because the flyback energy from L1 is what is pulling the base of the transistor down(keeping it off).

Your scope shot is clearly not showing a Joule Thief running in it's normal operation mode so I am not going to discuss it right now.  It's just another case of crossed and jumbled up signals coming from you.  You start off trying to argue about the normal regenerative switching in a Joule Thief running at normal frequencies and you point to a scope capture of a Joule Thief that is clearly not switching normally and not running at normal frequencies to make your point.

Quote
You continually ignore the junction capacitance of the transistor MH,and this is why you cannot understand as to how the circuit actually work's. Current flows through L2 before any current flows through L1, so L2 is the coil that starts to create the magnetic field within the toroid core first-not L1. Current can flow in L2 before the emitter/collector junction starts to open,due to the junction capacitance in the transistor. This in turn creates a voltage potential in L1 that is opposite that to L2,and add's to the voltage being supplied to the base of the transistor via the base/collector junction capacitor/capacitance. Although very small in capacity,it is enough to get the emitter/collector junction to start to open. Once this happen's,then a stronger magnetic field starts to build in the toroid. Now you start to get your transformer action between L1 and L2,and this then starts to pull the transistor on hard. The magnetic field builds to a point where the available current can no longer keep the magnetic field amplitude rising,or the core reaches a point of saturation,and the induced current in L2 stop's. The magnetic field begins to collapse due to the transistor no longer receiving enough current,and begins to switch off. As the magnetic field is now decreasing in strength,a reverse current flow is produced in L2,and this pulls the transistor hard off--as can be seen in the scope shot below.Some of this stored energy in L1 is used to drive the LED,and the rest is used to pull the transistor down/off. Once all the stored energy in L1 has been depleted,and no longer can hold the transistor off,the cycle starts all over again.

You clearly don't have a clue what Junction Capacitance is all about.   All that it means is that before the transistor starts conducting a tiny weenie microscopic capacitor has to be charged first.  That's the base-emitter capacitance.  So it takes a fraction of a microsecond to charge that capacitance via L1, the feedback coil.  That will not affect the L2, the output coil in any way.  See the attached small-signal model for a transistor and that model will apply in this case for initiation of the regenerative cycle.

From section 5.6.3 of this:  http://ecee.colorado.edu/~bart/book/book/chapter5/ch5_6.htm (http://ecee.colorado.edu/~bart/book/book/chapter5/ch5_6.htm)

Quote
The turn-on of the BJT consists of an initial delay time, td,1, during which the base-emitter junction capacitance is charged. This delay is followed by the increase of the collector current, quantified by the rise time, trise.

Here is another document that I was looking through about the nitty-gritty details about transistors.

http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~hu/Chenming-Hu_ch8.pdf (http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~hu/Chenming-Hu_ch8.pdf)

Quote
Current can flow in L2 before the emitter/collector junction starts to open,due to the junction capacitance in the transistor. This in turn creates a voltage potential in L1 that is opposite that to L2,and add's to the voltage being supplied to the base of the transistor via the base/collector junction capacitor/capacitance. Although very small in capacity,it is enough to get the emitter/collector junction to start to open.

Any tiny microscopic puff of current that flows through L2, the output coil, to charge a microscopic junction capacitance associated with the collector will create a microscopic puff of a magnetic field energy which will induce a microscopic puff of positive voltage in L1, the feedback coil.  The magnetic energy will be so small that it will have no effect.  It's just a new fetish on your part.

It's end of the dumping of the magnetic energy in the coil that just lit up the LED that makes the potential of L1 jump up to switch the transistor back on.  This energy is millions or billions times the size of any microscopic puff of energy associated with charging any possible pico-capacitor associated with the transistor collector input.

Quote
This is why your JT circuit is not very efficient MH,as most of the stored energy in the magnetic field that we want to use to drive the LED, is fighting against the energy being supplied by the battery ,to keep the transistor switched off. So the battery is trying to switch the transistor on,and the flyback energy is trying to keep the transistor switch off. This is why i like to use circuit's that disconnect the battery during the flyback part of the cycle.

That's just another bewildering statement.  All that I can say is that when the coil discharges into the LED, the battery and the coil are working together and their voltages are adding when this happens.  You seem to be indicating that this is not the case and if that is what you are saying you are wrong.

Instead of obsessively telling me that I "don't understand" just go ahead and explain how a Joule Thief works.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 19, 2016, 09:34:04 AM
Here is one of them WTF moments when your fooling around with circuits.
The circuit is as below,but i am now supplying the circuit with a voltage of 1 volt.
Looking at the scope shots,it appears that the transistor is still switched on after the inductive kickback spike starts ???

Brad

It is another WTF moment but not what you think and the timing shown in your scope shot is most likely unreliable.

This goes out to you and to all Joule Thief experimenters because I have seen this poor practice before:  Why would you put your scope probe right on the base input of the transistor?  There is a very high impedance signal there because the signal source is on the other side of a 1K resistor.  It's the perfect place to put a scope probe to disturb the operation of the device because the base input is the high-gain input of the switching device.

Why don't you put your scope probe on the other side of the 1K resistor, which is the output of the feedback coil L2?  That is a low impedance signal that will not really be affected by the presence of the scope probe.  That will show you the operation of the transformer in action.  You just have to look at the voltage at that point and at the same time to look at the potential of the collector to know precisely whether or not the base-emitter junction of the transistor is conducting or not and if the transistor is ON or OFF.  You need to put your scope probe on the base input of the transistor like a hole in the head.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 19, 2016, 10:36:42 AM
It is another WTF moment but not what you think and the timing shown in your scope shot is most likely unreliable.

This goes out to you and to all Joule Thief experimenters because I have seen this poor practice before:   It's the perfect place to put a scope probe to disturb the operation of the device because the base input is the high-gain input of the switching device.

Why don't you put your scope probe on the other side of the 1K resistor, which is the output of the feedback coil L2?  That is a low impedance signal that will not really be affected by the presence of the scope probe.  That will show you the operation of the transformer in action.  You just have to look at the voltage at that point and at the same time to look at the potential of the collector to know precisely whether or not the base-emitter junction of the transistor is conducting or not and if the transistor is ON or OFF.  You need to put your scope probe on the base input of the transistor like a hole in the head.

MileHigh

MH
Im done with arguing with you.

You make error after error.
Examples.

Quote
Why would you put your scope probe right on the base input of the transistor?  There is a very high impedance signal there because the signal source is on the other side of a 1K resistor.


Because MH,the pot was turned right down to it's lowest resistance,so it would make no difference to which side the scope probe was on.

Quote
I am not going to even argue about the two positive-feedback regenerative cycles in a Joule Thief that snap the transistor ON and snap the transistor OFF.  It's a done deal and has been explained properly.

And my scope shot's clearly show you are wrong. Just think about how the coils are wound in your JT circuit MH-->surly you can work it out--you know how transformers work-dont you?.

Quote
Your scope shot is clearly not showing a Joule Thief running in it's normal operation mode so I am not going to discuss it right now.  It's just another case of crossed and jumbled up signals coming from you.

More rubbish  MH-->what do you think a JT circuit is designed to do-->thats right,run at low voltages,and be able to light an LED. We are looking at the operation of the JT circuit running at the voltages we want them to run at-->not MH's fully charged battery voltage.


Go back to your book's MH,and leave the experimenting to those that actually experiment.

You do what you want MH,but i will show those that are interested,what actually is happening in JT circuit's when running at the low voltages we want them to.

A competition MH-?. You build your JT based around what you think is going on,and i will build mine using what i believe is going on. We then see who can drain a AA battery down the lowest. Which one of us can design and build a JT circuit that will do the best job of what a JT circuit is designed to do-->drain the most energy from what would otherwise be considered a dead battery.
But we wont stop there MH. After we have done that,then we will see who can get a JT circuit to oscillate without any inductive coupling between the two coils.

So now it's time to put up or shut up MH. I have explained correctly how a(your) JT circuit operates at low voltages(which is what we want a JT circuit to do),and i have explained as to how the cool joule circuit operates without the inductive coupling between the two coils.
Like i said,(and i see you are not brave enough to question or argue with these guy's-1 of whom you sadly cannot),if you disagree with me on that,then take it up with Vortex1, physics Prof, Lidmotor,and a number of other guys that have successfully replicated my cool joule JT. Are you also going to say that MarkE was wrong?--No,i did not think so,you dont have the balls to stand against those guy's-do you.

So thats it MH--take up my challenge,and prove to everyone here that you know better than i ,or shut up.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 19, 2016, 10:52:03 AM
@MH'

Think about what is happening with your JT circuit as the magnetic field is increasing in the toroid--L1 induces L2,and this sends more current to the base of the transistor--the transformer effect.
Now think about what happens to the current flowing in L2 when the magnetic field starts to collaps-->The voltage invert's,and the current flows in the opposite direction--unlike L1 where the current keeps flowing in the same direction. This pulls the transistor down/off during the flyback spike MH,not on. We can even place an LED across L2,and watch this happen -for those that do not have a scope.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 19, 2016, 11:18:35 AM
Just messing around with the stator from a smart drive washing machine motor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3YCpsEliRs


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 19, 2016, 03:31:11 PM
@MH'

Think about what is happening with your JT circuit as the magnetic field is increasing in the toroid--L1 induces L2,and this sends more current to the base of the transistor--the transformer effect.
Now think about what happens to the current flowing in L2 when the magnetic field starts to collaps-->The voltage invert's,and the current flows in the opposite direction--unlike L1 where the current keeps flowing in the same direction. This pulls the transistor down/off during the flyback spike MH,not on. We can even place an LED across L2,and watch this happen -for those that do not have a scope.


Brad

No kidding Brad, you are more or less explaining it properly here but insinuating that I did not say that.  It's just more confusion from you where you are not understanding what I am saying to you and what was said in the videos and explanations that I linked to.   I attached a schematic where I labeled L1 (main coil) and L2 (feedback coil to base resistor) so we can definitively standardize on this labeling for the two coils.

The output from L2 drops in potential first because the rate of change of current in L1 starts to decrease at the end of the energizing cycle.  That starts to turn the transistor off.  That initiates the collapse of the magnetic field in the toroid, which then makes the output from L2 drop even more in potential.  That is the regenerative cycle.

However, the current in L2 does not literally flow in the opposite direction but indeed the transistor is switched OFF.  L2 is simply generating EMF when the transistor is switched OFF.

That's one of the two positive feedback regenerative cycles.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 19, 2016, 03:46:03 PM
Brad:

Quote
Because MH,the pot was turned right down to it's lowest resistance,so it would make no difference to which side the scope probe was on.

Great, so you hacked the Joule Thief to get it to run at even lower voltages.  So you pull a bait and switch for the 100th time to force a square peg into a round hole to make your "point."

You are like some combination of a bull in a china shop and a "stream of consciousness" experimenter where everything is fluid and things change back and forth and you jump in and out of different ideas and statements and ultimately leave a jumbled mess of a trail of discongruent ideas that all add up to a convoluted mess but in your head it's all normal and "other people are the ones that have the problem."

You are not talking about one Joule Thief circuit, you are talking about five different Joule Thief circuits at the same time.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 19, 2016, 03:56:50 PM
Brad:

Quote
More rubbish  MH-->what do you think a JT circuit is designed to do-->thats right,run at low voltages,and be able to light an LED. We are looking at the operation of the JT circuit running at the voltages we want them to run at-->not MH's fully charged battery voltage.

We are back to where you agreed to do what I requested of you:  Describe how a standard Joule Thief circuit works.  Standard Joule Thief, standard circuit, standard running voltage, no bait and switch, no stream of consciousness.  Keep your mind focused on a single task.

Now are you capable of doing that or not?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 19, 2016, 04:49:44 PM
Brad:

Here, I undertook to do a fairly complete annotation of Magluvin's scope capture that I requested.  That is an example of the WORK and the thinking and analyzing that is REQUIRED if you are going to understand how a circuit works.

Now, when you look at Magluvin's scope capture for the "rundown to 360 mv" capture, the full compliment of WORK has to be done to understand it.  I am assuming that he did not change the circuit when he took that capture.  He simply observed how the Joule Thief switched over to a completely different operating mode at the lower voltage.  I have not analyzed that and I have no intention of analyzing it.

The reason I am emphasizing the "WORK" angle is because this was your "explanation" for how your "Cool Joule" feedback oscillator circuit worked:  "Miller effect."

Your explanation for your "Cool Joule" circuit's operation is a joke.

Now, if you want to describe how a standard Joule Thief circuit works I am all ears.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 19, 2016, 07:24:06 PM
Why should an experimenter have to "hunt" for resonance and find some "special delicate balance" if you have been pitching it all this time?  If I strike a bell it resonates.  What kind of "special" or "remarkable" results should Magluvin and others get if they "strike resonance?"  What are they supposed to see?

"why" is more of a philosophical question. I could blame it on some not willing to read what was presented to them, others on their lack of equipment, while others still, because they missed some pertinent piece of information or data that induces unknown factors into their circuit. I did my best to describe each of these details from my own perspective, as well as from (my interpretation of) others perspectives whom also understand these principals, as have been presented.

Consider this:  Place a clamp + weight onto one side of your bell. Notice how this changes the resonance.
The waveform is destroyed.
you might only get a plink, or a ding.

Now, place other weights clamped to other places around the bell, and notice how this changes, not only the resonant frequency of the bell, but its ability to resonate.

Quote
If Magluvin or anyone else succeeds in achieving something remarkable with a Joule Thief in "resonance" and explains what is actually taking place instead of just observing something, I will be happy to admit that I was wrong and acknowledge that something special is taking place due to the resonance.

On the other hand, if all that Magluvin or others can get is mushy wobbly scope traces that are difficult to explain and don't clearly show "resonance" and yield unremarkable power-in to LED-illumination-out results (or any other metric you want to define), what are YOU going to do?

MileHigh

I, unlike you, do not depend on the ability of others to succeed or fail in particular experiments, to formulate an already proven theory.
 especially when the parameters of any single experiment have not even been defined.

what I will do, is offer the best help I can to walk them through making their particular JT, better.
 locating and reducing the destructive interference in the system,
bringing resonances in the circuit closer to "in phase", so as to aid in constructive interference.

What I have a hard time understanding, MH:
is why you are so adamantly against such attempts to improve efficiency in this manner.
this is not a matter of me "proving" anything to you, this was proven 200 ago.
when it comes down to it, this is simple signal processing....
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 19, 2016, 07:30:48 PM
  I have not analyzed that and I have no intention of analyzing it.

MileHigh

yes, this seems to be your general viewpoint here.

Do you even "own" a Joule thief?
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 19, 2016, 07:33:40 PM
Brad:

Great, so you hacked the Joule Thief
MileHigh

what does that even MEAN?
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 19, 2016, 11:00:18 PM
Smoky2:

Don't make me laugh with all of the "cards" you are playing.  What you can't do is even describe a Joule Thief resonant mode beyond "fiddle with a pot and look for a sine wave."  Wow.  No kidding the "parameters haven't been defined."

Quote
What I have a hard time understanding, MH: is why you are so adamantly against such attempts to improve efficiency in this manner."

This must be about the 20th time that you have tried to play straw man with me and attempt to claim I said things that I didn't say.  It makes your argument beyond weak and you are too weak to ever have acknowledged that you are doing it.

Quote
this is simple signal processing

I will just repeat what I have said before, throwing around "big electronics words" that don't really mean anything tangible with respect to the humble Joule Thief does not add to the discussion at all.

You are left with saying this from what I can surmise:  "Trust me, if you can fiddle with a Joule Thief and find some kind of resonance I can't really define then you will get some kind of better efficiency that I can't really define."

You are making a lot of vague unproven claims about a Joule Thief.  Do you have a scope and a multimeter and a camera?  Why don't YOU demonstrate a Joule Thief in "resonance" instead of preaching about it?  I am not making any claims beyond what Magluvin has already shown and can be seen in many clips on YouTube and in many web links.  You are making claims that right now you can't deliver on.

So you entered this thread preaching "resonance 'magic'" and Brad entered this thread saying, "Oh, it's an RLC resonant circuit" and at this point what we can clearly see is that it's a device that energizes an inductor and then discharges that inductor through an LED where the operating frequency is based on two timing events; an L/R type energizing cycle and an L/R type discharge cycle though an LED.  "Resonance" and "RLC resonant circuit" have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with a normal Joule Thief.

And why not get it right and discuss the reality of the Joule Thief?  Why do I do it?  Well, did you see the magic "resonant" flash light?  The "resonance magic" is quickly going away and it's apparent that it's just another "resonance con."  The "cult of resonance" on the free energy forums is always there and the tangible results are never there.  Why not actually evaluate a circuit with less than five components properly.  Why not?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 20, 2016, 12:39:19 AM
"why" is more of a philosophical question. I could blame it on some not willing to read what was presented to them, others on their lack of equipment, while others still, because they missed some pertinent piece of information or data that induces unknown factors into their circuit. I did my best to describe each of these details from my own perspective, as well as from (my interpretation of) others perspectives whom also understand these principals, as have been presented.

Consider this:  Place a clamp + weight onto one side of your bell. Notice how this changes the resonance.
The waveform is destroyed.
you might only get a plink, or a ding.

Now, place other weights clamped to other places around the bell, and notice how this changes, not only the resonant frequency of the bell, but its ability to resonate.

I, unlike you, do not depend on the ability of others to succeed or fail in particular experiments, to formulate an already proven theory.
 especially when the parameters of any single experiment have not even been defined.

what I will do, is offer the best help I can to walk them through making their particular JT, better.
 locating and reducing the destructive interference in the system,
bringing resonances in the circuit closer to "in phase", so as to aid in constructive interference.

What I have a hard time understanding, MH:
is why you are so adamantly against such attempts to improve efficiency in this manner.
this is not a matter of me "proving" anything to you, this was proven 200 ago.
when it comes down to it, this is simple signal processing....

"what I will do, is offer the best help I can to walk them through making their particular JT, better.
 locating and reducing the destructive interference in the system,
bringing resonances in the circuit closer to "in phase", so as to aid in constructive interference."

I can accept those terms. ;)


"What I have a hard time understanding, MH:
is why you are so adamantly against such attempts to improve efficiency in this manner."

I have been trying to be social with mh lately. I used to feel the need to hammer the same thoughts that you have written above to him many times before. Im afraid we cant fix that. So I just stay off that battlefield because it takes toooo much time and thread space to just end up with what we see today. Its not only the constant insistence that an 'idea'(s) will not work, but topping it all off with degrading insults doesnt fare well with me either. I have written a few reply posts in the last couple weeks that once I reread and thought about it, I just deleted them instead of falling in a never ending dual that doesnt account for much but a couple of hot heads.. >:( >:(     ;D


Below is a scope shot that I produced last night. The battery was near fresh at 1.44v when I started. When I finally got to this point I let it set over night. At lunch today the batter showed a solid 1.46v.  But that could be due to many odd things. But it was nice to see.  Seems like a nice clean sine to me.

Here I had reverted back to my original transformer because the choke coil prewound with 2 windings wouldnt show a clean sine before it dies out. The only way I could come close to a sine with either transformer was to add the shorted winding. The original was better at it with these low inputs.

There isnt much range in which I can produce the clean sine before dying out. So I figure the best way around that is to up the input voltage. Will be doing that tonight. Got some various larger npn transistors to work with if the 3904 blows on me.

I need to get some pots with plastic casings and control shafts. The 100k Im using at the moment is the standard metal casing with split aluminum shaft that if I touch it it offsets tuning at these near 1mhz freq, even with a big rubber pipe end cap, if I touch the rubber the effect is still there.

Also, I did a check on the circuit without the led and it still operates. ;) Not exactly the same freq. but still the same other than without the led there is no clamping of the spike.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 20, 2016, 12:46:18 AM
Brad:

Here, I undertook to do a fairly complete annotation of Magluvin's scope capture that I requested.  That is an example of the WORK and the thinking and analyzing that is REQUIRED if you are going to understand how a circuit works.

Now, when you look at Magluvin's scope capture for the "rundown to 360 mv" capture, the full compliment of WORK has to be done to understand it.  I am assuming that he did not change the circuit when he took that capture.  He simply observed how the Joule Thief switched over to a completely different operating mode at the lower voltage.  I have not analyzed that and I have no intention of analyzing it.

The reason I am emphasizing the "WORK" angle is because this was your "explanation" for how your "Cool Joule" feedback oscillator circuit worked:  "Miller effect."

Your explanation for your "Cool Joule" circuit's operation is a joke.

Now, if you want to describe how a standard Joule Thief circuit works I am all ears.

MileHigh

The scope shot of the test points was with a fresher battery. Just noticed that I had the menu on with that shot as I was checking to see if the blue or yellow traces were inverted, and they were not. Happened to me before so I checked

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: hoptoad on February 20, 2016, 02:17:38 AM
snip....
You are not talking about one Joule Thief circuit, you are talking about five different Joule Thief circuits at the same time.
MileHigh
So you finally acknowledge there is more than one type of JT circuit.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 02:20:14 AM
Brad:

We are back to where you agreed to do what I requested of you:  Describe how a standard Joule Thief circuit works.  Standard Joule Thief, standard circuit, standard running voltage, no bait and switch, no stream of consciousness.  Keep your mind focused on a single task.

Now are you capable of doing that or not?

MileHigh

What is a joule thief.

A joule thief is a minimalist Armstrong[1] self-oscillating voltage booster that is small, low-cost, and easy to build, typically used for driving light loads.

It can use nearly all of the energy in a single-cell electric battery, even far below the voltage where other circuits consider the battery fully discharged (or "dead"); hence the name, which suggests the notion that the circuit is stealing energy or "joules" from the source. The term is a pun on the expression "jewel thief": one who steals jewelry or gemstones.

The circuit is a variant of the blocking oscillator that forms an unregulated voltage boost converter. The output voltage is increased at the expense of higher current draw on the input, but the integrated (average) current of the output is lowered and brightness of a luminescence decreased.

The name "Joule Thief" was coined by Clive Mitchell[3][4] and given to his variant of Kaparnik's circuit which consisted of a single cell, a single BC549 NPN transistor, a coil with two windings, a single resistor (typically 1000 ohms), and a single white LED. Clive originally named the circuit "Vampire Torch", because it sucked the last remnants of life from a battery.

At lower supply voltages a different mode of operation takes over: the gain of a transistor is not linear with VCE. At low supply voltages (typically 0.75 V and below) the transistor requires a larger base current to maintain saturation as the collector current increases. Hence, when it reaches a critical collector current, the base drive available becomes insufficient and the transistor starts to pinch off and the previously described positive feedback action occurs turning it hard off.

I dont know what planet your on MH,but a JT circuit is designed to drain the remaining energy from batteries that would otherwise be considered dead. So,i will only be describing how the (your) JT circuit works during the operation at voltages we would see when draining the last remaining energy from a dead battery--not MH's new battery blocking oscillator.

But we can take a poll if you like MH,and if more people here agree that they want to use a JT just to light an LED on a  healthy/charged battery,rather than be able to drain the life out of all there dead batteries,then we will go your way MH,and you lead the way in making the new single 1.5 volt battery cell torch.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 02:23:00 AM
Magluvin:

Quote
"What I have a hard time understanding, MH:
is why you are so adamantly against such attempts to improve efficiency in this manner."

I have been trying to be social with mh lately. I used to feel the need to hammer the same thoughts that you have written above to him many times before. Im afraid we cant fix that. So I just stay off that battlefield because it takes toooo much time and thread space to just end up with what we see today. Its not only the constant insistence that an 'idea'(s) will not work, but topping it all off with degrading insults doesnt fare well with me either. I have written a few reply posts in the last couple weeks that once I reread and thought about it, I just deleted them instead of falling in a never ending dual that doesnt account for much but a couple of hot heads..

We will take a reality check on this one.  You will not find a single statement by me saying that I am against improving the efficiency of a Joule Thief.  So why are you agreeing with him?  Of course between the lines in Smoky1's statement is that "Smoky1 is attempting to bring increased efficiency to the Joule Thief by preaching that "resonance" will make a Joule Thief more efficient so if you challenge Smoky1 then you are 'against such attempts to improve efficiency.'"  But Smoky1 has only talk to offer that you have seen many times before so why would you agree with him before he has shown any evidence that his pitch is real?

Don't do the "degrading insults" play.  If you read me carefully I never take a first step in that direction, never.  Tinman and I are "fighting" over how a Joule Thief works.  If he says something nasty I might respond, but I am never the initial aggressor.  If his behaviour shows some attributes that are not conducive to an orderly understanding of how a circuit works and he is all over the map and it gets frustrating, I will call him out.  Your own record on "degrading insults" is one of the worst on this forum and I assume that you have thought long and hard about that as well as thinking about the whole raison d'être for this forum which had you doing some soul searching about how much time to invest in "the search."  I commend you for that.  Your one-time tag-team "partner in crime" is getting serious push-back on EF for his horrible behaviour and people are openly expressing how unacceptable it is.  I only wish other people on this forum challenged you and your tag-team partner when it was absolutely horrible around here.  It's the one time that the people on EF have outshone the people on OU and demonstrated some backbone and character.  Again, don't put the "degrading insults" label on me because it is not true.  It's just another cynical card to play.

The gist of it is this:  People have to get past the back-slapping and mutual stroking when discussing simple circuits in fake imaginary terms that actually don't make sense in real life.  That's is what was happening about the Joule Thief.  I made my case and got push-back, and then I pushed-back.  There is nothing wrong with that.

So you got a nearly 1 MHz sine wave on your scope display.  What next?  That's the hard part and I wish you luck.  What you want and need to do is figure it out just like I annotated your scope shot for the regular Joule Thief.  You have to do that to see where it is going to lead you.  Will it be a dead end or "improved efficiency through resonance?"

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 02:37:38 AM
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg474813#msg474813 date=1455896984]


Quote
Brad:
The reason I am emphasizing the "WORK" angle is because this was your "explanation" for how your "Cool Joule" feedback oscillator circuit worked:  "Miller effect."

Your explanation for your "Cool Joule" circuit's operation is a joke.

A Joke--really ::)
I just explained as to how it was able to still oscillate with no inductive coupling between L1 and L2--not the whole operation process.
Let me guess--you are full bottles on it,even though you probably have never looked into it's operation?-->do tell.


Brad

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 02:45:59 AM
Brad:

Quote
I dont know what planet your on MH,but a JT circuit is designed to drain the remaining energy from batteries that would otherwise be considered dead. So,i will only be describing how the (your) JT circuit works during the operation at voltages we would see when draining the last remaining energy from a dead battery--not MH's new battery blocking oscillator.

It's just a question of not being all over the map.  The Joule Thief has two operating modes.  The first one is defined and it's operation is understood.  It is not in any way, shape or form an "RLC oscillator" like you stated, you were dead wrong.

Do you agree with my description of how a standard Joule Thief operates or not?  If you disagree then please do your explanation for how it operates like you said it would.

The Joule Thief obviously changes the way it works at low voltages and it has not been properly explained by anybody at all.  Don't you dare try to pull off another bait and switch and say, "When I sad RLC oscillator I meant at low voltages" or "I have been talking about this mode of operation the whole time."  I am truly sick and tired of your bait and switch bullshit.

You want to tackle the low-voltage operation where the standard digital switching mode with nice clean energizing and discharge cycles breaks down and the way the transistor works and presumably the way the feedback system works completely changes into some new mode of operation?  If yes then go for it.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 02:54:44 AM
Magluvin:

We will take a reality check on this one.  You will not find a single statement by me saying that I am against improving the efficiency of a Joule Thief.  So why are you agreeing with him?  Of course between the lines in Smoky1's statement is that "Smoky1 is attempting to bring increased efficiency to the Joule Thief by preaching that "resonance" will make a Joule Thief more efficient so if you challenge Smoky1 then you are 'against such attempts to improve efficiency.'"  But Smoky1 has only talk to offer that you have seen many times before so why would you agree with him before he has shown any evidence that his pitch is real?

Don't do the "degrading insults" play.  If you read me carefully I never take a first step in that direction, never.   If he says something nasty I might respond, but I am never the initial aggressor.  If his behaviour shows some attributes that are not conducive to an orderly understanding of how a circuit works and he is all over the map and it gets frustrating, I will call him out.  Your own record on "degrading insults" is one of the worst on this forum and I assume that you have thought long and hard about that as well as thinking about the whole raison d'être for this forum which had you doing some soul searching about how much time to invest in "the search."  I commend you for that.  Your one-time tag-team "partner in crime" is getting serious push-back on EF for his horrible behaviour and people are openly expressing how unacceptable it is.  I only wish other people on this forum challenged you and your tag-team partner when it was absolutely horrible around here.  It's the one time that the people on EF have outshone the people on OU and demonstrated some backbone and character.  Again, don't put the "degrading insults" label on me because it is not true.  It's just another cynical card to play.

The gist of it is this:  People have to get past the back-slapping and mutual stroking when discussing simple circuits in fake imaginary terms that actually don't make sense in real life.  That's is what was happening about the Joule Thief.  I made my case and got push-back, and then I pushed-back.  There is nothing wrong with that.

So you got a nearly 1 MHz sine wave on your scope display.  What next?  That's the hard part and I wish you luck.  What you want and need to do is figure it out just like I annotated your scope shot for the regular Joule Thief.  You have to do that to see where it is going to lead you.  Will it be a dead end or "improved efficiency through resonance?"

MileHigh

 
Quote
Tinman and I are "fighting" over how a Joule Thief works.

It would seem to me,it's more of an argument as to the JT is suppose to do,and what we want it to do. You want it to be used at voltages where you have a standard blocking oscillator operation,were as!i believe! the rest of us wish to use it to drain nearly dead batteries all the way down.  This is what the JT is used for mostly MH,so why should we be looking at how it operates at higher voltage supplies?.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 02:55:57 AM
Brad:

Quote
Let me guess--you are full bottles on it,even though you probably have never looked into it's operation?-->do tell.

The real problem is that it's a circuit that you stumbled upon and you yourself have never looked into its operation beyond merely observing it.

I looked into something similar 30 years ago.  Stop BSing yourself with two-word "explanations" for the way a circuit works when in reality your "explanation" is nothing more than a property of a transistor.

For example:  You don't have the slightest clue what actually determines the frequency of your "Cool Joule" circuit.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 03:05:30 AM
Brad:

Quote
It would seem to me,it's more of an argument as to the JT is suppose to do,and what we want it to do. You want it to be used at voltages where you have a standard blocking oscillator operation,were as!i believe! the rest of us wish to use it to drain nearly dead batteries all the way down.  This is what the JT is used for mostly MH,so why should we be looking at how it operates at higher voltage supplies?.

Now you are playing straw man and trying to put words in my mouth.  It was an argument about how it operates and two weeks ago the statements about how it operates were nonsensical bunk.  As a blocking oscillator it will still manage to pull the battery voltage low.  Below a certain threshold something different happens.  I saw that in Joule Thief clips years ago.

Stop the baiting and the switching and stand up for what you say with conviction and backbone, even if you are wrong.  Go ahead and do what will probably be a more complex analysis of a Joule Thief when the normal mode of operation breaks down at very low voltages if you want to do that.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 20, 2016, 03:14:31 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0)

200 leds lit from a single "dead" AA battery.  To me, this is what the JT circuit is for.  I have also done 300 and then 400 but, they are not as bright as these 200 leds.  The battery was well below 1 volt at this time.  I am still impressed by this...call me simple but, it is still pretty cool.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 03:17:57 AM
Brad:

Now you are playing straw man and trying to put words in my mouth.  It was an argument about how it operates and two weeks ago the statements about how it operates were nonsensical bunk.  As a blocking oscillator it will still manage to pull the battery voltage low.  Below a certain threshold something different happens.  I saw that in Joule Thief clips years ago.

Stop the baiting and the switching and stand up for what you say with conviction and backbone, even if you are wrong.  Go ahead and do what will probably be a more complex analysis of a Joule Thief when the normal mode of operation breaks down at very low voltages if you want to do that.

MileHigh

Already done that.
The only reason you are not happy with that,is because it go;s against what you believe.

So--how about that little competition MH ?. You up for it ?.
It's quite simple really MH. All you have to do is use your understanding of how thing's work,and i will use mine :D


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 03:20:05 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0)

200 leds lit from a single "dead" AA battery.  To me, this is what the JT circuit is for.  I have also done 300 and then 400 but, they are not as bright as these 200 leds.  The battery was well below 1 volt at this time.  I am still impressed by this...call me simple but, it is still pretty cool.

Bill

Great job Bill.
It is good to see some one that knows what a JT was designed to do.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 20, 2016, 03:22:55 AM
Great job Bill.
It is good to see some one that knows what a JT was designed to do.


Brad

Thanks Brad.  I really do appreciate that.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 03:24:04 AM
Brad:

Quote
Already done that.

Are you trying to suggest that you have done an analysis of how a Joule Thief works at extra low voltage when the normal switching cycle breaks down?

If yes, where is it?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 20, 2016, 03:28:43 AM
Magluvin:

We will take a reality check on this one.  You will not find a single statement by me saying that I am against improving the efficiency of a Joule Thief.  So why are you agreeing with him?  Of course between the lines in Smoky1's statement is that "Smoky1 is attempting to bring increased efficiency to the Joule Thief by preaching that "resonance" will make a Joule Thief more efficient so if you challenge Smoky1 then you are 'against such attempts to improve efficiency.'"  But Smoky1 has only talk to offer that you have seen many times before so why would you agree with him before he has shown any evidence that his pitch is real?

Don't do the "degrading insults" play.  If you read me carefully I never take a first step in that direction, never.  Tinman and I are "fighting" over how a Joule Thief works.  If he says something nasty I might respond, but I am never the initial aggressor.  If his behaviour shows some attributes that are not conducive to an orderly understanding of how a circuit works and he is all over the map and it gets frustrating, I will call him out.  Your own record on "degrading insults" is one of the worst on this forum and I assume that you have thought long and hard about that as well as thinking about the whole raison d'être for this forum which had you doing some soul searching about how much time to invest in "the search."  I commend you for that.  Your one-time tag-team "partner in crime" is getting serious push-back on EF for his horrible behaviour and people are openly expressing how unacceptable it is.  I only wish other people on this forum challenged you and your tag-team partner when it was absolutely horrible around here.  It's the one time that the people on EF have outshone the people on OU and demonstrated some backbone and character.  Again, don't put the "degrading insults" label on me because it is not true.  It's just another cynical card to play.

The gist of it is this:  People have to get past the back-slapping and mutual stroking when discussing simple circuits in fake imaginary terms that actually don't make sense in real life.  That's is what was happening about the Joule Thief.  I made my case and got push-back, and then I pushed-back.  There is nothing wrong with that.

So you got a nearly 1 MHz sine wave on your scope display.  What next?  That's the hard part and I wish you luck.  What you want and need to do is figure it out just like I annotated your scope shot for the regular Joule Thief.  You have to do that to see where it is going to lead you.  Will it be a dead end or "improved efficiency through resonance?"

MileHigh

Well lets just see what happens. If Smoky for what ever reasons doesnt want to fully demonstrate a device then it is what it is. If he is willing to spend some time here and help out toward a more efficient goal, then im fine with doing what he suggests. Its a JT. Not much to do but tinker some mod ideas. So on that end, lets not beat the horse before race.

If you want to argue with Brad about what a JT is, then thats what is going to happen.  I dont care if what I end up with is even remotely close to being a JT, as long as I can possibly get some 'better' performance. If I happen to end up with a circuit that runs best at 3v, then I suppose its not under the jt rules any longer. Or in the end, this can be called a modified jt, as long as it can run an led with a AA as low as .3v at very low amperage.   Like scooping ice cream with a spoon in the bowl. Using an ice cream scoop, which is simply a modified spoon, will get the ice cream out much easier. ;)


What next?  I think I just put some thoughts on that in my last post. Also, I have reached the goal that Smoky asked me to get to. Soo, lets calm down and see what happens next.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 03:53:14 AM
Magluvin:

I actually alluded to another interesting "what's next."

Supposing there is a very common super-bright white LED that most Joule Thief experimenters use and it turns out that the decaying voltage/current waveform from the discharging coil does indeed show that the inductor's energy output is not being used very efficiently.

So that begs the question:  Can you do an improved Joule Thief design where the extra power required to support the presumably increased circuit complexity to improve the efficiency of the inductor's energy output still manages to give you better overall performance?  Heck, even if the performance is not significantly improved it's a new challenge to get your minds out of the same-old-same-old Joule Thief rut and get some juices flowing.

It means that you actually have to apply your knowledge and try to design something new instead of painting by numbers all the time.  That would inject some life into a static subject that has not really changed in years.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Nink on February 20, 2016, 04:22:12 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0)

200 leds lit from a single "dead" AA battery.  To me, this is what the JT circuit is for.  I have also done 300 and then 400 but, they are not as bright as these 200 leds.  The battery was well below 1 volt at this time.  I am still impressed by this...call me simple but, it is still pretty cool.

Bill

Where were you at Christmas
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 04:33:24 AM
Magluvin:

I actually alluded to another interesting "what's next."

Supposing there is a very common super-bright white LED that most Joule Thief experimenters use and it turns out that the decaying voltage/current waveform from the discharging coil does indeed show that the inductor's energy output is not being used very efficiently.





MileHigh

Quote
So that begs the question:  Can you do an improved Joule Thief design where the extra power required to support the presumably increased circuit complexity to improve the efficiency of the inductor's energy output still manages to give you better overall performance?  Heck, even if the performance is not significantly improved it's a new challenge to get your minds out of the same-old-same-old Joule Thief rut and get some juices flowing.It means that you actually have to apply your knowledge and try to design something new instead of painting by numbers all the time.  That would inject some life into a static subject that has not really changed in years.

Im beginning to think that you do not read all of what is posted in threads MH.
I have told you ,and explained to you why and how !your! JT circuit is an inefficient circuit. I also posted a circuit,shot a video of the circuit running,and also the fact that replications have been made and posted here on that very simple circuit--the one below. Results are far more light output(measured with Lux meter)for less input energy. The ability to drain a battery down far more than !your! standard JT circuit. Due to the fact that it was just a quick throw together circuit,it could be made far more efficient than what i presented.


Brad.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 20, 2016, 04:36:12 AM
Where were you at Christmas




Well, back a few years ago, (2008) I lit my tree using 300 leds and a JT circuit and a single AA battery.  This past Christmas, I did not even bother to put up a tree.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 20, 2016, 04:41:58 AM
Magluvin:

I actually alluded to another interesting "what's next."

Supposing there is a very common super-bright white LED that most Joule Thief experimenters use and it turns out that the decaying voltage/current waveform from the discharging coil does indeed show that the inductor's energy output is not being used very efficiently.

So that begs the question:  Can you do an improved Joule Thief design where the extra power required to support the presumably increased circuit complexity to improve the efficiency of the inductor's energy output still manages to give you better overall performance?  Heck, even if the performance is not significantly improved it's a new challenge to get your minds out of the same-old-same-old Joule Thief rut and get some juices flowing.

It means that you actually have to apply your knowledge and try to design something new instead of painting by numbers all the time.  That would inject some life into a static subject that has not really changed in years.

MileHigh

Can I? Im Hoping I can. No time machine available in my area. ;D   Like I said. Lets see where it goes here and skip the supposing and assumptions, because thats all they are, assumptions. Lets just 'do' and 'try' before any guessing.   It would be nice to just do some peaceful experimenting. If it doesnt pan out, then it doesnt. Then thats on me. And Im willing to put the time in. So lets let it happen. ;) If anything it will be a learning experience.

Where Im at here is a little sloppy. I want to shorten leads and solidify a circuit to a nice soldered board, etc.  This was my first JT and just getting used to it and what variances affect the circuit like changing the resistor values, different input voltages, and which value changes affect the freq and so on. Whether I read it some where or someone tells me those things, its always better to experience it. Like martial arts. I could have 205 books on all the arts and practice in my room for years. But going out and using it in a real fight turns out to almost as difficult as not knowing any of the arts at all.  lol, been there done 'that'. ;) When I started boxing at the gym I learned that fact. Then I continued to go to the gym for 6 yrs. Now I can fight. ;) 9 amateur fights won 7.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 20, 2016, 04:56:32 AM
Is it a JT if it doesn't use LEDs? Or can work wirelessly with no battery at all? And drives a pulse motor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPt7xbmHXfY



Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 20, 2016, 05:16:15 AM
Is it a JT if it doesn't use LEDs? Or can work wirelessly with no battery at all? And drives a pulse motor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPt7xbmHXfY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPt7xbmHXfY)

I am not sure...is there any cheese involved in the circuit?

Ha ha...I have always liked that circuit of yours.  It would probably fry leds unless you used a lot of them.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 05:20:38 AM
Im beginning to think that you do not read all of what is posted in threads MH.
I have told you ,and explained to you why and how !your! JT circuit is an inefficient circuit. I also posted a circuit,shot a video of the circuit running,and also the fact that replications have been made and posted here on that very simple circuit--the one below. Results are far more light output(measured with Lux meter)for less input energy. The ability to drain a battery down far more than !your! standard JT circuit. Due to the fact that it was just a quick throw together circuit,it could be made far more efficient than what i presented.

Brad.

Well, I told you that there were some mistakes in a posting of yours that included the same schematic a few days ago and there still are no dots on the transformer.

Quote
Im beginning to think that you do not read all of what is posted in threads MH.

I am reading the posts in this thread and I saw your posting and watched your related clip.  But you apparently are not reading all the posts in this thread yourslf because I am talking about something completely different.  See how silly this part of the exchange is with its silly mind games?

As far as your circuit goes, I see a resistor in series with the LED so to me that spells unnecessary power wasted in the resistor.  So I don't see that circuit as being better than a standard optimized Joule Thief circuit.  And of course there is no comparative data.  If you were convinced you were onto something you would present credible data comparing the two circuits.

It's not "my" Joule Thief circuit and you are only propagandizing yourself when you state, "I have told you ,and explained to you why and how !your! JT circuit is an inefficient circuit."

You connected your power supply to the circuit and ran it at a low voltage.  Presumably you have not run it with a battery and there is a significant difference between a power supply at low voltage and a battery at low voltage so right now you don't even know if it will drain a battery like you hope.

So, did you analyze a standard Joule Thief circuit running at a low voltage or not?  This is the second time I am asking you.  You made a cryptic claim that you did but I am not convinced that is true at all.   Did you do it or not?

What about a standard Joule Thief running normally?  Do you agree with my description of the operation of the circuit or not?  Are you going to describe how a standard Joule Thief runs or not?

What about the picofarads of gate capacitance in the transistor?  Is that relevant or not or do you continue to ignore that?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 20, 2016, 07:01:00 AM


As far as your circuit goes, I see a resistor in series with the LED so to me that spells unnecessary power wasted in the resistor.  So I don't see that circuit as being better than a standard optimized Joule Thief circuit.

Didnt Brad show the circuit running without the resistor? I think it was him. Nobody else seems to be showing their JTs.  I have to look back and see.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 08:12:25 AM
Didnt Brad show the circuit running without the resistor? I think it was him. Nobody else seems to be showing their JTs.  I have to look back and see.

Mags

Yes,it is painfully obvious that MH dose not read the entire thread,nor pay much attention to any video's you post on your circuit.
Quote post 279 : A quick video on the circuit above.
The 10k VR has been omitted.
Also in the related video (at MH's request),i also show the schematic of the circuit with !no! resistor at all in the schematic. MH ask you to put up a schematic with each video,and also to give any information about the circuit in the thread. But even when you do this,he still gets it wrong,and once again gives incorrect information, along with incorrect assumptions about the circuit. No matter what you do to try and please him,it makes no difference--he still gets it wrong.

He is yet to take up my challenge.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 08:18:40 AM
Well, I told you that there were some mistakes in a posting of yours that included the same schematic a few days ago and there still are no dots on the transformer.

I am reading the posts in this thread and I saw your posting and watched your related clip.  But you apparently are not reading all the posts in this thread yourslf because I am talking about something completely different.  See how silly this part of the exchange is with its silly mind games?

As far as your circuit goes, I see a resistor in series with the LED so to me that spells unnecessary power wasted in the resistor.  So I don't see that circuit as being better than a standard optimized Joule Thief circuit.  And of course there is no comparative data.  If you were convinced you were onto something you would present credible data comparing the two circuits.

It's not "my" Joule Thief circuit and you are only propagandizing yourself when you state, "I have told you ,and explained to you why and how !your! JT circuit is an inefficient circuit."

You connected your power supply to the circuit and ran it at a low voltage.  Presumably you have not run it with a battery and there is a significant difference between a power supply at low voltage and a battery at low voltage so right now you don't even know if it will drain a battery like you hope.

So, did you analyze a standard Joule Thief circuit running at a low voltage or not?  This is the second time I am asking you.  You made a cryptic claim that you did but I am not convinced that is true at all.   Did you do it or not?

What about a standard Joule Thief running normally?  Do you agree with my description of the operation of the circuit or not?  Are you going to describe how a standard Joule Thief runs or not?

What about the picofarads of gate capacitance in the transistor?  Is that relevant or not or do you continue to ignore that?

MileHigh

What resistor?
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 09:56:28 AM
What resistor?

Yes I watched the clip again and saw a different schematic in the clip as compared to the one you posted twice.  So you post a schematic in the thread twice that doesn't match what you are showing in the clip and you are giving me a hard time for not remembering your posted comment and the schematic shown in the clip.

In both the mismatched schematic and the schematic shown in the clip you can't be bothered to show the dot convention for the transformer and in the past I told you there was a major mistake in the schematic and after that I told you that you weren't showing the dot convention.  And of course in fact there are two major mistakes in the posted schematic.

Quote
MH ask you to put up a schematic with each video,and also to give any information about the circuit in the thread. But even when you do this,he still gets it wrong,and once again gives incorrect information, along with incorrect assumptions about the circuit. No matter what you do to try and please him,it makes no difference--he still gets it wrong.

"But even when you do this" my ass.  Look in the mirror because your self-documentation level is abysmal.  If you tried to pull that kind of nonsense off on a serious electronics forum they would probably be merciless and slice you to pieces.

Looking at the correct schematic, since you have no base resistor at all, it is pretty likely the case that you are passing way too much current through the transistor to switch it on.  So that could represent a significant loss in energy.  On the schematic you posted in the thread you state 50-60 turns and that length of wire and the associated resistance represents more lost energy during the transistor ON time.  I am assuming that that didn't even occur to you.

From looking at the scope traces and by doing a bit more simple testing you could have determined just how much energy is lost to keep the transistor ON during a single cycle.  Since you are making better efficiency claims about this setup you would think that you would want to try to at least make some measurements along those lines and see how that compares to a standard Joule Thief, but you don't.  The setup is right there on your bench and you could simply configure it as a conventional Joule Thief and then as a "zero resistance" Joule Thief and make some measurements, but you don't.  Welcome to Brad's world of stream-of-consciousness electronics.

I also notice there is still a decaying voltage/current waveform during the coil discharge cycle into the LED.  So the idea I floated about possible coil discharge efficiency issues due to that factor is also happening for this setup.  But just to play your game, I guess you are not reading the thread.

So all in all, I am not convinced there is anything better in your "zero resistance" Joule Thief setup and I strongly suspect that it would be less efficient than a regular Joule Thief because of excessive current used to switch on the transistor.  Beyond that, we have only anecdotal evidence for your claim - "You said so."

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 20, 2016, 10:17:51 AM

Below is a scope shot that I produced last night. The battery was near fresh at 1.44v when I started. When I finally got to this point I let it set over night. At lunch today the batter showed a solid 1.46v.  But that could be due to many odd things. But it was nice to see.  Seems like a nice clean sine to me.

Here I had reverted back to my original transformer because the choke coil prewound with 2 windings wouldnt show a clean sine before it dies out. The only way I could come close to a sine with either transformer was to add the shorted winding. The original was better at it with these low inputs.

There isnt much range in which I can produce the clean sine before dying out. So I figure the best way around that is to up the input voltage. Will be doing that tonight. Got some various larger npn transistors to work with if the 3904 blows on me.

I need to get some pots with plastic casings and control shafts. The 100k Im using at the moment is the standard metal casing with split aluminum shaft that if I touch it it offsets tuning at these near 1mhz freq, even with a big rubber pipe end cap, if I touch the rubber the effect is still there.

Also, I did a check on the circuit without the led and it still operates. ;) Not exactly the same freq. but still the same other than without the led there is no clamping of the spike.

Mags

you can "zoom in" on the scope, just before the lower peak, you'll notice a blip, this is a wavefront hitting slightly out of phase.
advanced a bit, probably due to an inductance somewhere not being exactly what it needs. you may or may not be able to get rid of that, but it would be interesting to play with things and figure out exactly where its coming from.

If your scope can show two signals at once, probe different spots looking for a signal that peaks just in front of the one your are scoping here.


Also, for more precision:
If you can OHM the VR near where you have it adjusted above, and try to find one in that range, that has a higher sensitivity.
for instance, if it reads around 72k with that transistor, to get a clean(er) signal, look for a VR that has a range of say:
60-90k (30k range, vs 70k range of a 30-100k trim pot)
this may give you a better adjustability.


Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 20, 2016, 10:57:49 AM
a side though, if your scope doesn't have multiple channels like that.

you can take like a 100 ohm resistor, or something small.
and make a jumper wire while you watch the signal.

B<-> (-)
or
B <-> E

and see if you can get that thing to increase or decrease. If it creates a 3rd peak, you know that's not it.
if it changes the secondary peak that is shown in your image above, you can adjust a few parameters there depending on which side of the circuit it is on.

thing to remember, the coil doesn't care where the impedance comes from, it can be simply a resistance, or another coil, or the reactance factor of another load...

at times, you can dig out a blip by simply adding a thin metal plate between the battery ground and the connecting wire.
(a battery holder already does this, provided the plate is the proper thickness needed in the circuit)

other times you may find the coil itself is interfering with itself, because of the ends of the start or ending loops,
or a spacing in the middle of the torroid may be bent

the important thing is to measure everything, and understand how they affect each other.

something like changing the LED, can increase voltage, and lower current.
while the freq. may not change, because the parameter that was altered was a function of the led, not the transistor.

it can get really deep, if you don't have a set circuit to examine.
one thing my brother played with for a while was finding LED's that had the same internal resistance,
but different capacitances.

This allowed him to take advantage of longer "on" times of the LED, without disrupting the waveform.
The same approach is used with dual-phase motors as the load.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[not entirely ignoring the questions about me building a joule thief to display here]

apart from the two I linked from my youtube acct,

I do not have any to display at this time.
the last JT I built, was several years ago, after I lost my lab.
It flew.

2" microwave torroid, superbright LED in the center, in fashion of the Iron Man arc reactor.
a micromotor, with an oversized propeller.
following several crashes into the ceiling, my roommate at the time made me sign an addendum to our lease agreement, stating that I would not create dangerous technologies inside our apartment.

I haven't built one since.

I could probably indulge in experiments with the Armstrong oscillator for an endless series of lifetimes.

but I have not the free time, nor the proper equipment at this particular point in my life.
maybe after the little ones are grown, and I have amounted another 1/4 mil to sink into a proper lab.

but in all honesty, people like Bill or TK make anything I build look like a kid with crayons standing beneath Picasso.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 11:00:42 AM
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg474927#msg474927 date=1455958588]



Quote
Yes I watched the clip again and saw a different schematic in the clip as compared to the one you posted twice.  So you post a schematic in the thread twice that doesn't match what you are showing in the clip and you are giving me a hard time for not remembering your posted comment and the schematic shown in the clip.
In both the mismatched schematic and the schematic shown in the clip you can't be bothered to show the dot convention for the transformer and in the past I told you there was a major mistake in the schematic and after that I told you that you weren't showing the dot convention.  And of course in fact there are two major mistakes in the posted schematic.

Well as you need to be spoon feed MH,o hope the schematic below passes inspection-regardless of the fact that you should have associated the schematic in the video with the post that went with the video. If it dose not meet your requirements-->too bad,as thats all your getting. If you new anything about the SSG circuit's,then you would not have needed a dot schematic,as the conections give the answer as to what way the bifilar coil is wound.

Quote
"But even when you do this" my ass.  Look in the mirror because your self-documentation level is abysmal.  If you tried to pull that kind of nonsense off on a serious electronics forum they would probably be merciless and slice you to pieces.

Thankfully everyone here(other than your self) new exactly what i was showing,and have no problem with the schematic.

Quote
Looking at the correct schematic, since you have no base resistor at all, it is pretty likely the case that you are passing way too much current through the transistor to switch it on.  So that could represent a significant loss in energy.  On the schematic you posted in the thread you state 50-60 turns and that length of wire and the associated resistance represents more lost energy during the transistor ON time.  I am assuming that that didn't even occur to you.

No,it did not MH,and this is where bench time once again win's hands down. 50 turn's of .4mm wire oscillating at that frequency--wonder how much the resistance rises due to the skin effect at that frequency ?. The current flowing through L2 would have to be about 8 time's less than the current flowing through L1,due to there being an 8:1 winding ratio--would it not?. But the current would be raised i guess,as the voltage is dropped. But what is that voltage drop to that of the supply voltage?. Oh wait,the supply voltage was less than the voltage at the base of the transistor-about 3 times less ;). There is also the fact that the transistor stayed at room temperature,which would indicate very little power dissipated as heat.
Are you sure you are full bottles on EE MH ?.
I think i am going to put a low value resistor on the base in that circuit,and we will see just how little current is flowing to the base--would you like me to do that MH ?-->just so as we can see if your comment has any merit at all.

Quote
From looking at the scope traces and by doing a bit more simple testing you could have determined just how much energy is lost to keep the transistor ON during a single cycle.  Since you are making better efficiency claims about this setup you would think that you would want to try to at least make some measurements along those lines and see how that compares to a standard Joule Thief, but you don't.  The setup is right there on your bench and you could simply configure it as a conventional Joule Thief and then as a "zero resistance" Joule Thief and make some measurements, but you don't.  Welcome to Brad's world of stream-of-consciousness electronics.

Mmm-you mean like using a super cap charged to a certain voltage,then doing a rundown time test to say .4 volt's on the cap,while measuring the light output with my lux meter ?.Hell MH,i would never had thought about doing that before making my claim ::)
Of course you will want video proof--yeah?
Let me know,and i will waste a little more of my time on you.

Quote
I also notice there is still a decaying voltage/current waveform during the coil discharge cycle into the LED.  So the idea I floated about possible coil discharge efficiency issues due to that factor is also happening for this setup.  But just to play your game, I guess you are not reading the thread.

MH
Could you draw up the current loop during the flyback pulse of each circuit,and post them here please?.

Quote
So all in all, I am not convinced there is anything better in your "zero resistance" Joule Thief setup and I strongly suspect that it would be less efficient than a regular Joule Thief because of excessive current used to switch on the transistor.  Beyond that, we have only anecdotal evidence for your claim - "You said so."

So lets do it MH-->your beloved circuit V my circuit. You V me-->a joule thief challenge ;)
If there is disbelief in the results given by both of us,we could post our circuits to an agreed third party for testing,and let them post the results them self.
What do you say MH ?


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 20, 2016, 11:12:32 AM
@ Brad

I can't help but point out here, that he skillfully avoided my question as to whether or not he owned one....
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 11:57:01 AM
@ Brad

I can't help but point out here, that he skillfully avoided my question as to whether or not he owned one....

I am trembling in my tracks but I will answer your question:  No I don't "own" a Joule Thief and never have and never will.

Think about all of the questions and issues that I raised with you that you "skillfully avoided."

Quote
finding LED's that had the same internal resistance

Ha ha ha - busted.

Brad:  No to the competition, but you already knew the answer to that question, it's just theater on your part.  I understand Bedini motors inside-out, never built one, just more theater on your part.

Same thing for you, think about all of the questions and issues that I raised with you that you "skillfully avoided."

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 12:26:10 PM
Brad:

No guts to apologize for posting a schematic in the thread that doesn't match the circuit in the clip, twice.

Quote
If you new anything about the SSG circuit

I know everything about the SSG, you are just having a pissing competition with yourself.  Put the bloody dots on your transformer schematics like any self-respecting experimenter would do.  New is the new new, who would have none?

Quote
Thankfully everyone here(other than your self) new exactly what i was showing,and have no problem with the schematic.

My knew crystal ball is telling me something much different than your old crystal ball.

Quote
No,it did not MH,and this is where bench time once again win's hands down. 50 turn's of .4mm wire oscillating at that frequency--wonder how much the resistance rises due to the skin effect at that frequency ?. The current flowing through L2 would have to be about 8 time's less than the current flowing through L1,due to there being an 8:1 winding ratio--would it not?. But the current would be raised i guess,as the voltage is dropped. But what is that voltage drop to that of the supply voltage?. Oh wait,the supply voltage was less than the voltage at the base of the transistor-about 3 times less (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif). There is also the fact that the transistor stayed at room temperature,which would indicate very little power dissipated as heat.

Stream of consciousness that doesn't even make any sense.  Just use a current sensing resistor and choose the value carefully and come up with a method to double-check your results.

Wow, the supply voltage was low.  Makes you wonder how much the current would be and how much of a price you would have to pay in wasted energy if the supply voltage was 1.5 volts, doesn't it?  I seriously doubt that occurred to you.

Quote
Mmm-you mean like using a super cap charged to a certain voltage,then doing a rundown time test to say .4 volt's on the cap,while measuring the light output with my lux meter ?.Hell MH,i would never had thought about doing that before making my claim (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Of course you will want video proof--yeah?
Let me know,and i will waste a little more of my time on you.

No, make proper measurements with your equipment.

Quote
Could you draw up the current loop during the flyback pulse of each circuit,and post them here please?.

?

After you are prodded you post a proper schematic.  In the future you need to prod yourself beforehand to post a proper schematic.

I will take your complete and total silence about how a Joule Thief normally operates as an admission that I was correct.  It's also an admission that your statement about a Joule Thief being an RLC circuit is totally wrong.  It's also an admission that you went whackadoo a while back making crazy arguments about the regenerative cycle that made no sense, especially the picofarad nonsense.  Just more Brad stream-of-consciousness electronics.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 02:17:36 PM
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg474950#msg474950 date=1455967570]



Quote
No guts to apologize for posting a schematic in the thread that doesn't match the circuit in the clip, twice.

MH
I apologize.
I was unaware that you cannot understand the english language,nor can associate a given schematic posted on the video explaining as to what exact circuit the video and results were all about. When one uses a pot on the base of a transistor in a circuit,do you always ask them to give you the exact value the pot was set at,at say the two minute mark into the presentation of the device running?.

Quote
I know everything about the SSG, you are just having a pissing competition with yourself.  Put the bloody dots on your transformer schematics like any self-respecting experimenter would do.  New is the new new, who would have none?

And yet you are the only one that had a problem with the circuit--no bloody dot's.
Lidmotor had it replicated within a day--still no bloody dots on the transformer. :D

Quote
My knew crystal ball is telling me something much different than your old crystal ball.

Lol. You have no new crystal ball MH--your set in stone-wrong or right.
You even admitted to this in a thread at OUR,in regards to the TPU. Im guessing you have debunked that one too ?.

Quote
Wow, the supply voltage was low.  Makes you wonder how much the current would be and how much of a price you would have to pay in wasted energy if the supply voltage was 1.5 volts, doesn't it?  I seriously doubt that occurred to you.

Well i have never seen a nearly depleted 1.5 volt battery with 1.5 volts across it before :o
A clear example that you are stuck,and really have no idea as to what people want JT's for.
Perhaps go and check out the video Pirate posted not long back here,and see all those LED's light up with a nearly dead 1.5 volt battery.
I think your in the wrong thread.

Quote
After you are prodded you post a proper schematic.  In the future you need to prod yourself beforehand to post a proper schematic.

Lets take my incorrect schematic with the 10 VR.
My circuit i test has that VR in it. Tell us all here what my pot was set at during the test ?.
Point us toward a post in a thread where a similar thing has happened,and where you ask that experimenter -->what value was your VR set at when you did the test run.
I could have wound that pot up and down during the test,but you would have no way of knowing as to what the resistance value was during the VR sweep. Now,if you had of watch the video carefully,then there is no way in hell you could miss the near full size A4 schematic drawn in large black marker pen-->but some how you did.
Both circuit's are correct for the test MH,i had the pot turned down to .1 of an ohm--how's them for apples :D

Quote
I will take your complete and total silence about how a Joule Thief normally operates as an admission that I was correct.

MH
You dont even know what a JT is most commonly used for,so how do you think you could ever present a correct explanation as to how it is working.

 
Quote
It's also an admission that your statement about a Joule Thief being an RLC circuit is totally wrong.  It's also an admission that you went whackadoo a while back making crazy arguments about the regenerative cycle that made no sense, especially the picofarad nonsense.  Just more Brad stream-of-consciousness electronics.

And the cool joule JT works just fine.
There was also my last video where i showed two LEDs being lit from the ground rail and steel laminated isolated core of the stator. Lot;s of C there MH.
So junction capacitance plays no part in it hey MH. Well go check out rise and fall times associated with that junction capacitance of some transistors. Dose this not play a part in at what frequencies different setups will oscillate at?.
Sorry MH,it is there,and you cannot remove it. Like i said,it is a small value of C,but it is there,and so the JT circuit is an LRC circuit.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 02:22:12 PM
@ Brad

I can't help but point out here, that he skillfully avoided my question as to whether or not he owned one....

I doubt it.
MH has all the answers--there in the books-he needs no JT.
I think i saw him make an electromagnet once--some copper wire rapped around a nail or bolt. Was long ago,so im not sure.

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 03:02:30 PM
I am trembling in my tracks but I will answer your question:  No I don't "own" a Joule Thief and never have and never will.

Think about all of the questions and issues that I raised with you that you "skillfully avoided."

Ha ha ha - busted.

Brad:  No to the competition, but you already knew the answer to that question, it's just theater on your part.  I understand Bedini motors inside-out, never built one, just more theater on your part.

Same thing for you, think about all of the questions and issues that I raised with you that you "skillfully avoided."

MileHigh

Quote
finding LED's that had the same internal resistance

Ha ha ha - busted.

Something wrong with that statement MH ?.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 04:43:06 PM
Well my point has been made in this thread.

Two weeks ago people were talking about how a Joule Thief runs like they were from another planet - Planet Bizarro.  And now people understand how a Joule Thief actually works, they understand how its operating frequency is determined, and they understand how it has absolutely nothing to to with resonance at all.

After all, this is like a circuit with five components and it should be understood.  But of course there was a huge amount of push-back and it was a total slog to get these basic concepts across.  It reminds me a bit of EMJunkie and the coils discussion.  I called his bluff and asked him how a circuit worked that consisted of only two components, a voltage source and a coil, and was unable to answer the question after he was talking about coils for months.  It just shows how easy it is for people out there in YouTube land and elsewhere to deceive people that want to believe.

The Joule Thief in its normal operating mode is understood.  What happens when a Joule Thief changes operating mode at very low voltages is not understood, and it will be up to the people on this thread if they want to pursue that investigation at all.

Magluvin now has a sine wave in his setup running at about 900 kHz.  There is no significance to it because almost all signals in circuits turn into sine waves at higher frequencies due to low-pass filtering inherent in the setups.  I wish him luck but I am not counting any chickens.

Brad:

Your sarcasm about the incorrect schematic is misplaced.  All experimenters should do that otherwise you end up with mass confusion.  Look at your push-back on the question of the dots for the transformer.  It's not the fact that in this case it was not to difficult to discern, in other schematics it will be difficult to discern.  It's all about the principle of the thing and good practices.  Shame on you for such a sucky attitude - put on the bloody dots.

You have never seen a depleted battery at 1.5 volts?  How about I interrupt your stream of consciousness with some reality:  Lots of people will pop in a fresh or slightly used battery in their Joule Thieves.  It's supposed to be designed to give you decent performance over a voltage range, not just at a certain low voltage.  Welcome to the real world.

I didn't miss the schematic in your clip - stop pissing.  I was actually shocked to see a schematic in your clip and I should have remembered that memorable event. What I did do was get thrown off a few days later when you posted a schematic that did not match what transpired in your clip and I commented on that incorrect schematic.  Work on developing some effective communication skills for your audience.

Quote
You dont even know what a JT is most commonly used for,so how do you think you could ever present a correct explanation as to how it is working.

More pissing.  I just did and I practically has to pound it into your head and now you finally understand how one works.  You are welcome.

Quote
Like i said,it is a small value of C,but it is there,and so the JT circuit is an LRC circuit.

ROTFLMAO, you are not at the point in your understanding where you can properly name a circuit by its type.  I am not going to try again because there are other issues at play which result in you making that foolish statement.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 20, 2016, 04:51:28 PM

Ha ha ha - busted.


MileHigh

Since you have never actually built a JT,
you can go to school.

http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Diode-resistance.php (http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Diode-resistance.php)

combine the magnitude of the resistance, with the phase angle,
and you can observe the effects of adding the diode to the circuit.
(impedance)
once you learn this, we can move on to the concept of capacitance, within the diode.

maybe tomorrow I can teach you how a WIRE works....


Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 05:01:43 PM
Don't make me laugh Smoky2.  The term "internal resistance" is used for things like batteries, not diodes.  In common electronics terminology, you never say that diodes have an "internal resistance," you talk about their I-V transfer curves or absolute equivalent resistance at a given operating point or their differential resistance at a given operating point.

You have seen me post enough in this thread to have a reasonable grasp of my electronics knowledge level.  So posting the "instructional material" is just you making a fool of yourself, more pants pissing.

Quote
combine the magnitude of the resistance, with the phase angle,
and you can observe the effects of adding the diode to the circuit.
(impedance)
once you learn this, we can move on to the concept of capacitance, within the diode.

ROTFLMAO
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 20, 2016, 05:22:36 PM

I'm not going to pretend to know what level your "electronics skills" are at,
as you seem to have a difficult time grasping simple basic concepts.
You have absolutely no hands on experience with this circuit,
you are both unqualified, and out of your field of expertise

the only reference point you have on this subject is other peoples work on the JT.
Yet you argue over "how it works", and don't even know what type of circuit this is.
or maybe you just get to high to even bother to read whats sat in front of you.

either way, if all you want to do is argue and laugh at things, wtf are you here for?

we already established 6 pages ago,
the effects of tiny changes in impedance, capacitance, and inductance can change the outcome.

at a given frequency, voltage and current curves:

a diode performs rather consistently.
If you take this diode and place it in that JT, or the other JT, at the same freq.
it will represent the same impedance.


I would tell you to:
Take the red and the green out of your desktop PC case, and compare them.
but I think we both know you are not going to follow me through such a simple lesson.

you would rather tell me that nothing matters and demand I demonstrate "how a diode works"
or some other unfounded protest against basic electronics theory.

the two images above pretty much say it all, the link was more of sarcasm....
I doubt you read more than the first sentence, if you even followed the link at all.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 20, 2016, 05:31:16 PM
I have no intention of discussing the internal resistance, voltage levels, and current through the battery.
this can be considered a unique "constant" to a circuit. And may vary from battery to battery.
it is presumed that any testing will take place using the same battery (per rendition of the device).

We have very little control over the batteries internals (in most battery types).
So, for now, such discussion would just add unnecessary confusion.

AA, AAA, button cell?
EB, electrochemical, galvanic?
reverse fed through a neon bulb, powered by proximity to a leyden jar?
[I think I'll stop there, so as not to raise too many eyebrows]
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 05:43:37 PM
Depending on which tune is playing the trons and the hoes might eye each other across the dance floor on opposite sides of the room like so many wallflowers.  Then the DJ puts on a new tune and the trons and the hoes race towards each other in the center of the dance floor in a frenzy and make contact and seemingly leave this plane of existence.

The DJ is really good, and as the Millenniums say these days, "He is dope."
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 20, 2016, 05:55:54 PM
riotous man,  and groovy.  8)

here's one for ya.
Metal Desk (wasn't dodged, just seemed irrelevant, but since challenged....)

As was discovered upon placing the computer onto an insulating support
The metal case of the computer is charged up to ~45V above the rest of the house.
This is generally unnoticed with the small computer. However the large metal desk acts as a capacitance.
When the desk is not insulated from the computer case, it too measures at around ~+45v
this was in reference to both house ground at the plug, as well as the floor, the door knob, and several other
random points of reference.

It was presumed that some low-current flow forms between the power supply plugged into the wall
grounded through the circuits, to the case, then the desk.
this is all extremely large compared to the JT which uses the desk as its' "battery".





 
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 05:56:50 PM
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg474965#msg474965 date=1455982986]




MileHigh


The term !blocking oscillator! is a bit of an incorrect description.The current flow isnt actually blocked,the current path is disconnected/becomes open--nothing is actually blocked. When the current path becomes open,no current can flow,and so the magnetic field collapses. But it is what it is.

Quote
ROTFLMAO, you are not at the point in your understanding where you can properly name a circuit by it's type.  I am not going to try again because there are other issues at play which result in you making that foolish statement.

Odd words from a man that needs dots on coils to work out how an SS SSG circuit is wired.
Or from some one that dose not even have a JT circuit of there own,even though(as you say) is only 5 components.

Quote
Two weeks ago people were talking about how a Joule Thief runs like they were from another planet - Planet Bizarro.  And now people understand how a Joule Thief actually works, they understand how its operating frequency is determined, and they understand how it has absolutely nothing to to with resonance at all.

Well i never actually got into the resonance thing,as i dont think that is important towards efficiency,nor plays a key role in it. But then again,we all know the kid on the swing theory,where resonance plays a key roll in efficiency. I mean,you wouldnt want to try and push the kid forward again when he was only half way back on the return swing--would you. You would wait until he hit his return peak,and then give a little push as he just started the cycle all over again. You could also give that little push in the right direction when he reached the mid point in the forward swing--this would be the zero volt line on the AC sine on every down slope crossing.

Quote
After all, this is like a circuit with five components and it should be understood.  But of course there was a huge amount of push-back and it was a total slog to get these basic concepts across.  It reminds me a bit of EMJunkie and the coils discussion.  I called his bluff and asked him how a circuit worked that consisted of only two components, a voltage source and a coil, and was unable to answer the question after he was talking about coils for months.  It just shows how easy it is for people out there in YouTube land and elsewhere to deceive people that want to believe.

Well there could be two answers to that one MH--you were not clear enough in your description.
Was the voltage source AC or DC ?
As you said !voltage source and coil!,im guessing there was no core for the coil?.
If the voltage source was DC,then you just get a resistive heater with a stable magnetic field.
If the voltage source was AC,then you would have a resistive heater with an alternating/varying magnetic and electric field.

Quote
The Joule Thief in it's normal operating mode is understood.  What happens when a Joule Thief changes operating mode at very low voltages is not understood, and it will be up to the people on this thread if they want to pursue that investigation at all.

You mean-not understood by your self MH. I mean,you even said in a reply to Mag's scope shot that you were not even going to try and work it out--but yet,tell me im wrong-->even though you have no idea what is right ::)

Quote
Your sarcasm about the incorrect schematic is misplaced.  All experimenters should do that otherwise you end up with mass confusion.  Look at your push-back on the question of the dots for the transformer.  It's not the fact that in this case it was not to difficult to discern, in other schematics it will be difficult to discern.  It's all about the principle of the thing and good practices.  Shame on you for such a sucky attitude - put on the bloody dots.

Some time's MH you become to critical when you find you made a booboo. Like i said,how would you determine the resistance of a 10k VR. It could be .1ohm or 10 000 ohms--but as long as i put it there in the schematic,it's all good.I could turn that pot down to it's lowest resistance,and then the two circuits are the very same--i turn the pot to 1 ohm resistance,and now there different lol. But dot's for such a well known simple circuit?--really :o
Do i need to come and write keyboard on your keyboard so as you know what it is ? Should i put a sticky note on it for you,saying belongs on computor desk--just so as you know where it go's-like the wires on the SS SSG circuit.. do i really need to place dot's on the bifilar coil for such a simple and well know circuit ?.

Quote
You have never seen a depleted battery at 1.5 volts?  How about I interrupt your stream of consciousness with some reality:  Lots of people will pop in a fresh or slightly used battery in their Joule Thieves.  It's supposed to be designed to give you decent performance over a voltage range, not just at a certain low voltage.  Welcome to the real world.

The real world MH,is that most people want there JT to run LED's from nearly dead batteries.
Reality check MH-->If people wanted to use good batteries to run LED's,then why worry about a JT (or any other)circuit at all ?,as more components results in more losses. If you want maximum light for a minimum power cost,then you just run your LED of two x 1.5 volt batteries(using 3 volt LED's)--the best efficiency you will get. But you want to take a good 1.5 volt battery,and loose some of that stored energy in other components as well as your LED--makes no sense.

Quote
I didn't miss the schematic in your clip - stop pissing.  I was actually shocked to see a schematic in your clip and I should have remembered that memorable event. What I did do was get thrown off a few days later when you posted a schematic that did not match what transpired in your clip and I commented on that incorrect schematic.  Work on developing some effective communication skills for your audience.

Like i said MH,i turn the VR down to it's lowest resistance,and the two schematics are the same :D
If i go by 1 ohm intervals,do i have to post 10 000 schematics for you?. Oh how hard it would be to follow MH's rules when we put a VR in the circuit lol.

Quote
More pissing.  I just did and I practically has to pound it into your head and now you finally understand how one works.  You are welcome.

Well i have understood what a JT is for,and how it operates under conditions we all want it to operate at(other than yourself MH)for quite some time. It would seem MH,that you want to use good batteries to run an LED,so as the battery becomes run down,but not quite fully discharged,where as the bulk of us want to use as much energy from that battery as we can.
I think you may be in the minority here MH,and i think that bothers you.

Quote
Well my point has been made in this thread.

Yes--that much is clear.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 20, 2016, 06:05:35 PM




ROTFLMAO

Quote
Don't make me laugh Smoky2.  The term "internal resistance" is used for things like batteries, not diodes.  In common electronics terminology, you never say that diodes have an "internal resistance," you talk about their I-V transfer curves or absolute equivalent resistance at a given operating point or their differential resistance at a given operating point.

Are you serious MH :o
Lol--you have got to be kidding me--and everyone else here.

Quote
You have seen me post enough in this thread to have a reasonable grasp of my electronics knowledge level.  So posting the "instructional material" is just you making a fool of yourself, more pants pissing.

Im sorry MH,but things are not looking bright for you ATM.
Can you calculate the !!internal!! resistance of the LED in the below graph?. I saved this page from some years back when learning all about LED's and there current/voltage curve.

Brad

P.S
Hey MH--at the end of the day,where all having fun-right?.
I mean,i love our games of tennis,and no hard feelings at the end of the day--well not on my side anyway. :)
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 06:13:13 PM
Quote
If the voltage source was DC,then you just get a resistive heater with a stable magnetic field.
If the voltage source was AC,then you would have a resistive heater with an alternating/varying magnetic and electric field.

That just shows how linear and insulated your thought patterns are.

Quote
You mean-not understood by your self MH.

You have made a claim that you understand how a Joule Thief works at very low voltages.  I am calling BS on you.  Tell me, what determines the operating frequency at very low voltages?

As far as just about all of the content in your two postings goes, you can sure lay the poseur BS on thick when you want to.  It's like watching a bad actor in an amateur theater production.

P.S.:  The only feelings are frustration because of the willful ignorance.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 20, 2016, 06:21:54 PM
Quote
riotous man,  and groovy.

But do you get it?
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 21, 2016, 03:35:42 AM




As far as just about all of the content in your two postings goes, you can sure lay the poseur BS on thick when you want to.  It's like watching a bad actor in an amateur theater production.

P.S.:  The only feelings are frustration because of the willful ignorance.

Quote
That just shows how linear and insulated your thought patterns are.

And how un-definitive your question was.

Quote
You have made a claim that you understand how a Joule Thief works at very low voltages.  I am calling BS on you.  Tell me, what determines the operating frequency at very low voltages?

Once again-another question that cannot be answered without further information--like i asked for before,and you refused to give.
Transistor type
core type,size,grade
wire size,turn ratio
supply voltage that can be delivered without drop
LED type and specifications-->including internal resistance lol.
The list go's on MH

EMJ did not fall for your trick's,and i gave you the answer your question deserved--it's that simple.

What else do you get when you supply a DC voltage to a coil of wire MH ?-other than dissipated heat,and a magnetic field that dose not vary in time. Perhap's it's time you answered some of your own question's. :D


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 21, 2016, 03:41:30 AM
That just shows how linear and insulated your thought patterns are.

You have made a claim that you understand how a Joule Thief works at very low voltages.  I am calling BS on you.  Tell me, what determines the operating frequency at very low voltages?

As far as just about all of the content in your two postings goes, you can sure lay the poseur BS on thick when you want to.  It's like watching a bad actor in an amateur theater production.

P.S.:  The only feelings are frustration because of the willful ignorance.

Says the man that refuses to even have a go at decoding Mag's low voltage scope shot,and who laugh's at those who say LED's have an internal resistance that can effect the operating parameters of such a circuit. You dont even have a go at answering the question about the LED's internal resistance i asked you-even though i gave a graph for you to go by.

And you call me ignorant  ::) .
It is funny that you want everyone to answer your question's,but you dodge all those ask of you.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 21, 2016, 04:05:56 AM
And how un-definitive your question was.

Once again-another question that cannot be answered without further information--like i asked for before,and you refused to give.
Transistor type
core type,size,grade
wire size,turn ratio
supply voltage that can be delivered without drop
LED type and specifications-->including internal resistance lol.
The list go's on MH

EMJ did not fall for your trick's,and i gave you the answer your question deserved--it's that simple.

What else do you get when you supply a DC voltage to a coil of wire MH ?-other than dissipated heat,and a magnetic field that dose not vary in time. Perhap's it's time you answered some of your own question's. :D

Brad

I didn't even ask a question about the voltage source and the coil that I made reference to about EMJ.  Work on your logical thought processes.

The last time you tried to back out of doing some circuit analysis I told you that you didn't need specific component values or if you wanted, just plug in your own values.  You didn't say anything and you ran away.

You are trying to pull off the same stunt this time.  It's obvious that you have no clue how the Joule Thief operates at very low voltages and why you would even claim that you do is almost unbelievable.  You are not fooling anybody - you clearly do not understand the operating mode of the Joule Thief at low voltages.  You are just being a clown.

There were no tricks with respect to EMJ.  He could not answer a question about the operation of a circuit that consisted of a voltage source and a single coil.  He threw everything he could at it and just about had a meltdown.  He was a fraud preaching about coils when he didn't even understand how one worked.  With respect to the Joule Thief at low voltages you are clearly in the same boat.  You are bluffing when you ask for component specifics, it's a farce and you can't admit that you don't know how a Joule Thief works at low voltages.  Why should anybody take you seriously when you spout this kind of nonsense?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 21, 2016, 04:21:14 AM
Says the man that refuses to even have a go at decoding Mag's low voltage scope shot,and who laugh's at those who say LED's have an internal resistance that can effect the operating parameters of such a circuit. You dont even have a go at answering the question about the LED's internal resistance i asked you-even though i gave a graph for you to go by.

And you call me ignorant  ::) .
It is funny that you want everyone to answer your question's,but you dodge all those ask of you.

Brad

Yes I refused to have a go at decoding the low voltage scope shot because I am not interested and it would take a lot of work on a bench probing the circuit and going back to reviewing how a transistor works at low voltages to figure out how the circuit actually operates.  But you the faker claim you understand how it works and when you are asked how the operating frequency is determined you choke and say you can't do anything without component values and it's all ridiculous bluff - you don't have the slightest clue how the Joule Thief operates at low voltages.  How can you actually make such a ridiculous dishonest bluff in front of your peers?  You are a walking three-dollar bill.

The question about the LED's "internal resistance" is a complete farce considering how you know I have been around for years.  It's a complete farce since a few postings before that in the thread I made a comment about the various ways to look at an LED in terms of resistance.  It's just you being a poseur and a pretentious clown.  You should be embarrassed by your ridiculous nonsensical behaviour.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 21, 2016, 06:21:57 AM
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg475033#msg475033 date=1456023956]


Quote
You are trying to pull off the same stunt this time.  It's obvious that you have no clue how the Joule Thief operates at very low voltages and why you would even claim that you do is almost unbelievable.  You are not fooling anybody - you clearly do not understand the operating mode of the Joule Thief at low voltages.  You are just being a clown.

Says the man that has no idea him self-->but still can argue that my presented operation is wrong . That is truly laughable MH :D ;D

Quote
The last time you tried to back out of doing some circuit analysis I told you that you didn't need specific component values or if you wanted, just plug in your own values.  You didn't say anything and you ran away.

Oh dear.
Tell us all here how the internal combustion engine works MH,and what RPM it will be capable of achieving. Im not going to give you any specifications about the parts used in that engine,nor will i tell you if it is a gasoline engine,or a diesel engine. Im also not going to tell you whether it is a piston engine ,or of a rotary design-->but i expect you to be able to tell us what will determine the RPM of the engine --much like you asking me what will determine the frequency of a JT circuit without any component specifications.

Quote
There were no tricks with respect to EMJ.  He could not answer a question about the operation of a circuit that consisted of a voltage source and a single coil.  He threw everything he could at it and just about had a meltdown.  He was a fraud preaching about coils when he didn't even understand how one worked.


I see once again,you have failed to answer your own question.
Tell us all MH, what is the result when applying a DC voltage to a coil.
As that is all the information you gave EMJ,then i expect you to answer your own question with your given information.

 
Quote
With respect to the Joule Thief at low voltages you are clearly in the same boat.  You are bluffing when you ask for component specifics, it's a farce and you can't admit that you don't know how a Joule Thief works at low voltages.  Why should anybody take you seriously when you spout this kind of nonsense?

Here is a fact MH. I have done a lot of work on low voltage oscillators,and i do know how the transistor is working when the supply voltage is lower than the required voltage to switch on the transistor. This can vary with different types of circuits. You on the other hand,admit to not knowing how it work's,and yet believe you have the right to pass judgement on others theories.
I DONT KNOW HOW IT WORK'S-BUT IT DOSNT WORK LIKE THAT.
  See how silly you have made your self look MH ;)

Quote
I didn't even ask a question about the voltage source and the coil that I made reference to about EMJ.  Work on your logical thought processes

A clear admittance to not giving enough information to make a correct analysis.
You do this quite often,while insisting that others give accurate and correct information about there experiments--like dots on coils of well know circuit's--> saying one schematic is different from another because it has a 10k VR--although you have no idea as to what resistance value the VR is set at.

These are fact's about you MH,and they have all been displayed on this thread.
You are a true example of a hypocrite --expect everything from others,and yet not even willing to answer your own questions.

I once had respect for you,but that has all faded away now that i have seen your true colors.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 21, 2016, 06:49:38 AM
Quote
Oh dear.
Tell us all here how the internal combustion engine works MH,and what RPM it will be capable of achieving. Im not going to give you any specifications about the parts used in that engine,nor will i tell you if it is a gasoline engine,or a diesel engine. Im also not going to tell you whether it is a piston engine ,or of a rotary design-->but i expect you to be able to tell us what will determine the RPM of the engine --much like you asking me what will determine the frequency of a JT circuit without any component specifications.

Indeed, your example backfires on you, pun intended.  You can indeed describe how a gasoline engine or a diesel engine operates without any specifics.  You can indeed discuss approximate top speeds for different engine designs without having to be specific.

And that's what I am asking you to do since you claim you can do it:  Describe how a Joule Thief operates at a low voltage and explain what determines the frequency of operation.  That's what I did for a standard Joule Thief at normal voltages and I did it without any component specifics.  I did a complete annotation of the timing diagram.  You should be able to do exactly the same thing for a standard Joule Thief operating at a low voltage.

But the reality is that it is pure BS coming from you and you will say anything to deflect away from this truth.

i am smart enough to say when I don't know something and you clearly aren't smart enough to do that.  You are the poor guy that holds his breath and turns blue all the time.

Mistaking "voltage source" for "DC voltage" goes back to the same old language comprehension and thought process issue that you have.

If you want to prove that you are not lying about knowing how the Joule Thief operates at low voltages, just explain it right here.  You cannot claim that you understand the process and then turn around and claim that you can't explain it, that's ridiculous.   So put up or shut up.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 21, 2016, 07:09:34 AM



Quote
Indeed, your example backfires on you, pun intended.  You can indeed describe how a gasoline engine or a diesel engine operates without any specifics.  You can indeed discuss approximate top speeds for different engine designs without having to be specific.

Well go ahead--do tell.
Lets just stick to a piston engine,as you wish to stick to the JT circuit.
Dont forget to list and account for everything that will determine it's RPM peak.
Lets see if you can put your money where your mouth is.

Quote
And that's what I am asking you to do since you claim you can do it:  Describe how a Joule Thief operates at a low voltage and explain what determines the frequency of operation.  That's what I did for a standard Joule Thief at normal voltages and I did it without any component specifics.  I did a complete annotation of the timing diagram.  You should be able to do exactly the same thing for a standard Joule Thief operating at a low voltage.

Once again--not reading all the thread.
I have already done this MH. If you have misses it,then go back and start reading.

Quote
But the reality is that it is pure BS coming from you and you will say anything to deflect away from this truth.

The truth is MH,i have already explained my working theory,and you shy'd away from trying--because you cant.

Quote
i am smart enough to say when I don't know something and you clearly aren't smart enough to do that.  You are the poor guy that holds his breath and turns blue all the time.

I have to ask--if you dont know the answer to something,then how do you know my answer is wrong?. :o

Quote
Mistaking "voltage source" for "DC voltage" goes back to the same old language comprehension and thought process issue that you have.

There ya go--doing the old !switcharoony! again.
Due to the fact that you failed to provide enough information in your question,i used one of the most common voltage sources--that source being a DC source.
So the fail is on you,and once again,i see you cannot answer your own question-->another diversion.

Quote
If you want to prove that you are not lying about knowing how the Joule Thief operates at low voltages, just explain it right here.  You cannot claim that you understand the process and then turn around and claim that you can't explain it, that's ridiculous.   So put up or shut up.

Go back and find my well explained answer MH--it is there,and you know it.

Fail after fail on your behalf MH.
This thread will be a great read for all those here--> a character builder for your self MH.
And dont go deleting anything.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 21, 2016, 09:46:17 AM
author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg474965#msg474965 date=1455982986]

The term !blocking oscillator! is a bit of an incorrect description.The current flow isnt actually blocked,the current path is disconnected/becomes open--nothing is actually blocked.
Brad

I must interject here...

When operated outside of the linear mode of the transistor (digital switching), the circuit acts as a blocking oscillator.
it clips the waveform, the resultant peaks are represented by the inductor action, not the transistor, or a combination of the two.

The premise of the discussion I began with, took the transistor out of this digital mode of operation.
Thus, MH's perspective does not apply to the JT in resonance mode.
But is not necessarily untrue.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 21, 2016, 10:05:28 AM
Focus:  I never even asked you the question with respect to the EMJ story so it is impossible for me to "fail to provide enough information in my question."

I think somewhere in this thread there are about 10 words from you about how a Joule Thief supposedly operates at low voltages.  Is that your "working theory?"  If that is all you have, then copy and paste it here and add a lot more than that.  For example, I am sure that if you wanted to describe how a gasoline engine works you could write up a full page of text description.  But we are NOT talking about gasoline engines, we are talking about how a Joule Thief operates at low voltages.

Please explain to the readers how a Joule Thief operates at low voltages.  Please see the attached annotated timing diagram and the linked YouTube clip as examples of how you can make an effective presentation.

How a Joule Thief works:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg

Stop beating around the bush and put up or shut up.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 21, 2016, 11:01:45 AM
Tried 3 different transformers, all with equal 1 to 1 turns on the primary and trigger coils. In all cases once I get them to be in the clean sine zone, there is very limited range in which I can get it to show before it cuts out completely. So maybe a different ratio of turns would be next.

I can see that when the circuit is running normal with say a 1k resistor, that there is more on time of the transistor than off/discharge. So I would like to change things to possibly get a near to equal on/off time when running normal mode, which would hopefully help in producing the sine, instead of the long on and short off time Im getting which would kill off any ringing of resonance if the on time is too long.

I suppose that more trigger turns would shorten the on time as it would increase the base voltage in a shorter time period than with a 1 to 1 ratio. So Ill go that route for now.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 21, 2016, 12:16:00 PM
Tried 3 different transformers, all with equal 1 to 1 turns on the primary and trigger coils. In all cases once I get them to be in the clean sine zone, there is very limited range in which I can get it to show before it cuts out completely. So maybe a different ratio of turns would be next.

I can see that when the circuit is running normal with say a 1k resistor, that there is more on time of the transistor than off/discharge. So I would like to change things to possibly get a near to equal on/off time when running normal mode, which would hopefully help in producing the sine, instead of the long on and short off time Im getting which would kill off any ringing of resonance if the on time is too long.

I suppose that more trigger turns would shorten the on time as it would increase the base voltage in a shorter time period than with a 1 to 1 ratio. So Ill go that route for now.

Mags

there I likely only one or two nodes you can approach with your VR
it tends to be fairly exact.
you are either on it or you are not.
You can notice the "sineish" wave forming as you approach the freq, and dismantling as you leave it.
there is also and abrupt change before and after this range,
where the transistor switches sharply leaving a similar scope to what MH shows above
 (of a non-MH JT, he obviously is using someone elses scope image here)

[if your VR can go low enough, you can get the transistor to not-switch, but at that point you could probably just power the led with the battery and coil.]

the more exact to the resonant freq you can get the better the results, but once you are there, further adjustment will only take you away from that point.

leaving it at this resistance value, we can then examine the other parameters.
for instance, if an impedance on one side of the coil were to be examined as "the same as"
a longer wire, to represent the same impedance.

we could then lengthen the wire on the other side to balance the two impedances.
however, changing the number of turns will significantly alter the inductance,
this will change the frequency, and require an additional adjustment of the VR. (<-- avoid this step backwards!)

[edit: avoid, when you are looking at a "standard JT", in your 1 to 1 coil test circuit, please continue experimenting as you feel fit]


Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 21, 2016, 12:51:20 PM
Ok. Just played with the larger transformer I had made for a project way back. With it, I did a sloppy 3rd winding shorted. With a fairly low ohms on the resistor value, I can get from an almost normal waveform, stronger n longer downward curve from the top, to the ones below. Both are set to the same parameters but one with a weak battery and one with a fresher battery..  So I must be close as the freq shown on the scope is the exact same with different voltage levels. Where before when the voltage changed, if it went lower, the freq would be higher. But here it sticks.  Man. Im glad I conjured up using those shorted windings.  I havnt gotten what seem like Im getting here without it.   

Will try to tune it with the 3rd winding by adding or deleting turns. Gotta tighten it up and solidify how and where it sits.

Farted around with the disk caps and there were points where the freq just jumped to another octave when adjusting the pot. And would jump back down when I turned it back. When it jumped down, the led was bright, and got brighter as the resistance was lowered. But on the way up, right at the jump area you can see an area of transition where the led is very dim, then as bright or more than below that point when in the higher freq jump. Also the batt voltage had shown down around 1.12v just below the transition and 1.33 above, led lit very well on both sides. Will do those things again with scope shots.  I had just found this more interesting to show for now.


Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 21, 2016, 12:58:39 PM
Also strange is the pk-pk, min and max are very similar in each shot yet the input is a pretty big difference.  All why I thought this was more important to show.  Like the circuit is regulating somewhat.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 21, 2016, 03:09:41 PM
Here are 2 shots of different led placement. 1st is across transistor as in typical circuits and the 2nd across the coil.

Resistor is 22ohm. Will try my 1ohm resistor block for a power in measurement for each later. Gota work today.


Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 21, 2016, 04:09:21 PM
The reason I did the led position test again was to see the difference in on/off time for each. Across the transistor shot shows closer to s 50% duty cycle than the across the coil shot. Possibly that is where my issue is with getting that sine to work out here. Like I was talking about earlier a few posts, wanting to try different winding ratios to fix that, and I think it might work in both cases to bring out a nice 50% duty. At the low frequencies, what in the 300hz min so far, the duty cycle could probably be very short off times. So I think the winding ratio changes are key there, if it helps, not sure yet.

Looking at the 2 shots, you can see the led across the transistor when conducting holds the battery down as the led dissipates, as I described it would days ago before building my first JT, and it looks like enough that the battery is lower at turn off than the led across the coil shot.  So I am pretty interested in testing out the power in differences. I figure using a fresh 1,5v battery during the test will give a much better resolution of the differences than a very depleted battery. If it is possible to get an extra couple of hours by putting the led across the coil instead of the transistor(typical placement) then it is a winner to me. ;) ;D   The wrong vs the right.

lol Also tried the led in reverse, both placements, and the led still lit. Not like it does when proper in polarity, but did light. I had at first did it by accident figuring it probably wouldnt light if reversed not bothering to check the led for polarity, and when it did light, I figured it was correct. But I wasnt getting the blinding brightness.  Then I noticed the pk-pk was 84v.  lol  Hey. These are all experiences here. really getting to know this thing , backwards and forwards, literally.  Anyway, having a good time with it.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: shylo on February 22, 2016, 01:08:24 AM
Sorry to interupt but I just have to ask , what happens if you put say 50 volts in , will it run a load that needs 120?
I tried to build a JT ,could never get it working.
Can you up the output enough to run larger loads?
I'll understand if none answer.
artv
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 22, 2016, 01:22:58 AM
Sorry to interupt but I just have to ask , what happens if you put say 50 volts in , will it run a load that needs 120?
I tried to build a JT ,could never get it working.
Can you up the output enough to run larger loads?
I'll understand if none answer.
artv

I have many JT circuits that you put in 1 volt and get out 400.  Another one will put out almost 900 on a single "dead" battery. (Jeanna Circuit) You do not need to input 50 volts.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 22, 2016, 03:03:45 AM
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg475054#msg475054 date=1456045528]


How a Joule Thief works:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg

Stop beating around the bush and put up or shut up.
[/quote]

Quote
I never even asked you the question with respect to the EMJ story so it is impossible for me to "fail to provide enough information in my question."

I will take that as a no--i cannot answer my own  question.

Quote
I think somewhere in this thread there are about 10 words from you about how a Joule Thief supposedly operates at low voltages.  Is that your "working theory?"  If that is all you have, then copy and paste it here and add a lot more than that.

Like i said MH--you do not read all of the thread's. I think you more !pick and choose! bit's and pieces that suit your need's. The post with my explanation is closer to 400 word's with scope shot's. Some how you managed to miss that ::) But you will look silly-!even to your self! when you find it--after your continual banter about me posting a description of how a JT works at low voltages--something you your self couldnt do.

Quote
For example, I am sure that if you wanted to describe how a gasoline engine works you could write up a full page of text description.  But we are NOT talking about gasoline engines, we are talking about how a Joule Thief operates at low voltages.

It was you that said you can determine how a gasoline engine works,but you also asked what determines the frequency at which a JT would oscillate--so i asked you to show what determines the peak RPM of a gasoline engine,without me giving any specifications of the parts used--just like you refused to give me any specifications of the components in the JT circuit you wanted me to explain.  Like i said MH--it cant be done without these specifications. For example-if i make up a circuit,and use a set length of wire for each coil, and use a ferrite toroid,then the JT will oscillate at a certain frequency. If i do nothing other than change the ferrite torroid out for a steel laminated torroid(while everything else remains the same) then the frequency would drop by over 1000 %.

So you see MH,there is no way of saying what the oscillating frequency would be for a JT circuit without the required specifications-just like you could never work out what the peak RPM of a gasoline engine would be without those specification's-nor that stupid and incomplete question you asked EMJ. You try and trap people like this all the time MH--but they are all waking up to you.

So as i !HAVE! answered your question in detail(although some how you missed it),you now answer your own question you gave EMJ,with only the information you provided
What happens when you apply a voltage source to a coil ?.

You cannot answer your own question MH--you know that,as there is not enough information to answer it.
Is the voltage source an alternating source,or a direct source.?
Will there be enough current available to maintain this voltage source when it is applied across the coil?.
What kind of coil?. E.G-dose it have a hole through the middle,or is it tightly wound from center-out,so there is no hole through the middle-->this will determine the magnetic field produced by the coil.
What kind and size of wire.
How many turns?
The list go's on MH.
Your question cannot be answered without further information-->your question was loaded--a bait for EMJ-->just like your question on what determines the frequency of oscillation in a JT circuit. That list is about a long as the required information needed to calculate the peak RPM of a gasoline engine.

Quote
Please explain to the readers how a Joule Thief operates at low voltages.  Please see the attached annotated timing diagram and the linked YouTube clip as examples of how you can make an effective presentation.

As i have said a number of times now,i have done this already--but you have some how missed it.'
Im not doing it again MH,just because you lack the ability to read all parts of a thread.

Now,how about you answer your own question-what determines the frequency that a JT will oscillate,and i will add everything you failed to take into account.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 22, 2016, 03:38:45 AM
Right so you are "fighting" with me and you are so immature that you refuse to link to what you are talking about.  So you will get your jollies when I go look for it.  Get yourself a box of Kleenex.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 22, 2016, 04:05:34 AM
Right so you are "fighting" with me and you are so immature that you refuse to link to what you are talking about.  So you will get your jollies when I go look for it.  Get yourself a box of Kleenex.

As expected

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFM9fxfONVw
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 22, 2016, 04:10:26 AM
As expected

Was it good?

I found the posting and am looking at it.  #337 right?  Don't get too excited.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 22, 2016, 04:36:02 AM
Brad's posting #337:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As can be seen in the scope shot below,all of the flyback energy in L1 is dissipated before the transistor once again switches on. This is because the flyback energy from L1 is what is pulling the base of the transistor down(keeping it off).

You continually ignore the junction capacitance of the transistor MH,and this is why you cannot understand as to how the circuit actually work's. Current flows through L2 before any current flows through L1, so L2 is the coil that starts to create the magnetic field within the toroid core first-not L1. Current can flow in L2 before the emitter/collector junction starts to open,due to the junction capacitance in the transistor. This in turn creates a voltage potential in L1 that is opposite that to L2,and add's to the voltage being supplied to the base of the transistor via the base/collector junction capacitor/capacitance. Although very small in capacity,it is enough to get the emitter/collector junction to start to open. Once this happen's,then a stronger magnetic field starts to build in the toroid. Now you start to get your transformer action between L1 and L2,and this then starts to pull the transistor on hard. The magnetic field builds to a point where the available current can no longer keep the magnetic field amplitude rising,or the core reaches a point of saturation,and the induced current in L2 stop's. The magnetic field begins to collapse due to the transistor no longer receiving enough current,and begins to switch off. As the magnetic field is now decreasing in strength,a reverse current flow is produced in L2,and this pulls the transistor hard off--as can be seen in the scope shot below.Some of this stored energy in L1 is used to drive the LED,and the rest is used to pull the transistor down/off. Once all the stored energy in L1 has been depleted,and no longer can hold the transistor off,the cycle starts all over again.

This is why your JT circuit is not very efficient MH,as most of the stored energy in the magnetic field that we want to use to drive the LED, is fighting against the energy being supplied by the battery ,to keep the transistor switched off. So the battery is trying to switch the transistor on,and the flyback energy is trying to keep the transistor switch off. This is why i like to use circuit's that disconnect the battery during the flyback part of the cycle.


Brad.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 22, 2016, 05:34:07 AM
In your original post #337, you don't actually identify it as "your" explanation of how the Joule Thief operates at low voltage, you just seamlessly transition into it.  And I did read it.

I'm not sure if your scope shot is for the standard Joule Thief running at 500 mV with a 1K resistor, or, to get it to run you tweaked the base resistor down really low.   Because for your comment about your scope captures in the next posting you made, #338, is the following comment:

Quote
Because MH,the pot was turned right down to it's lowest resistance,so it would make no difference to which side the scope probe was on.

I have no idea what the base resistance is for your original post #337 but I will push on.  The ideal case is to have a standard Joule Thief circuit running at a normal frequency, and then observe as the frequency jumps up and the waveforms change at very low voltages - without changing the base resistor value or anything else about the Joule Thief.

Quote
You continually ignore the junction capacitance of the transistor MH,and this is why you cannot understand as to how the circuit actually work's. Current flows through L2 before any current flows through L1, so L2 is the coil that starts to create the magnetic field within the toroid core first-not L1. Current can flow in L2 before the emitter/collector junction starts to open,due to the junction capacitance in the transistor. This in turn creates a voltage potential in L1 that is opposite that to L2,and add's to the voltage being supplied to the base of the transistor via the base/collector junction capacitor/capacitance. Although very small in capacity,it is enough to get the emitter/collector junction to start to open. Once this happen's,then a stronger magnetic field starts to build in the toroid. Now you start to get your transformer action between L1 and L2,and this then starts to pull the transistor on hard. The magnetic field builds to a point where the available current can no longer keep the magnetic field amplitude rising,or the core reaches a point of saturation,and the induced current in L2 stop's. The magnetic field begins to collapse due to the transistor no longer receiving enough current,and begins to switch off. As the magnetic field is now decreasing in strength,a reverse current flow is produced in L2,and this pulls the transistor hard off--as can be seen in the scope shot below.Some of this stored energy in L1 is used to drive the LED,and the rest is used to pull the transistor down/off. Once all the stored energy in L1 has been depleted,and no longer can hold the transistor off,the cycle starts all over again.

This sounds plausible but it didn't come from you.  You have probably been hunting around a long time for information on Joule Thieves, and in one of your links you found a good technical article that described how a Joule Thief operates at low voltages and basically copied that information and wrote it into your posting.  Is that a fair assessment?

What you did not tie into all of this is the explanation for the high frequencies but it is probably there in the article.  If the very short transistor on and off times and short discharge pulses of the coil are because of small amounts of charge stored in the internal capacitors of the transistor, then I suppose the roughly one microsecond transistor-off-time/coil-discharge-times may make sense.

Without that article, you would be lost for a description and lost on the bench.  Without that article I would have to be on the bench for a very long time while I simultaneously reviewed transistor small signal and low voltage and transient behaviour.  I would have had to work on it myself, and if I found the same article that you found it would have helped me out tremendously.  Even without the article this would probably be child's play for people like Verpies and Picowatt.

So I missed your copy/paste because you didn't identify it outright.  I simply told you I wasn't going to discuss it because I was talking about a Joule Thief in normal operating mode at that point.

In the scope capture there appears to be an issue with the causality that I can't explain.  I think the transistor should still switch off before we see the voltage spike but I am not sure.  The scope probe placement issue may be a factor there.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 22, 2016, 06:02:40 AM
Brad:

Quote
just like you refused to give me any specifications of the components in the JT circuit you wanted me to explain.  Like i said MH--it cant be done without these specifications. For example-if i make up a circuit,and use a set length of wire for each coil, and use a ferrite toroid,then the JT will oscillate at a certain frequency. If i do nothing other than change the ferrite torroid out for a steel laminated torroid(while everything else remains the same) then the frequency would drop by over 1000 %.

nor that stupid and incomplete question you asked EMJ. You try and trap people like this all the time MH--but they are all waking up to you.

As you could see in your no-link hidden copy/paste about the operation of a Joule Thief circuit at lower voltages, you can indeed fully describe the operation of a circuit without having to have component values.  This concept is freaking you out because it is outside your realm of experience and your way of thinking or capacity of thinking with respect to electronics.  The reality is that it's done all the time and it's the normal way that people describe the operation of a circuit.

You are really hung up on the EMJ question and accusing me of it being incomplete which of course is ridiculous again because I never even said what the question was.

Do you want to get the question so you can try to answer it?  You seem to be chomping at the bit so I can give it to you if you want it.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 22, 2016, 06:38:40 AM
In your original post #337, you don't actually identify it as "your" explanation of how the Joule Thief operates at low voltage, you just seamlessly transition into it.  And I did read it.

I'm not sure if your scope shot is for the standard Joule Thief running at 500 mV with a 1K resistor, or, to get it to run you tweaked the base resistor down really low.   Because for your comment about your scope captures in the next posting you made, #338, is the following comment:

I have no idea what the base resistance is for your original post #337 but I will push on.  The ideal case is to have a standard Joule Thief circuit running at a normal frequency, and then observe as the frequency jumps up and the waveforms change at very low voltages - without changing the base resistor value or anything else about the Joule Thief.



What you did not tie into all of this is the explanation for the high frequencies but it is probably there in the article.  If the very short transistor on and off times and short discharge pulses of the coil are because of small amounts of charge stored in the internal capacitors of the transistor, then I suppose the roughly one microsecond transistor-off-time/coil-discharge-times may make sense.

Without that article, you would be lost for a description and lost on the bench.  Without that article I would have to be on the bench for a very long time while I simultaneously reviewed transistor small signal and low voltage and transient behaviour.  I would have had to work on it myself, and if I found the same article that you found it would have helped me out tremendously.  Even without the article this would probably be child's play for people like Verpies and Picowatt.

So I missed your copy/paste because you didn't identify it outright.  I simply told you I wasn't going to discuss it because I was talking about a Joule Thief in normal operating mode at that point.

In the scope capture there appears to be an issue with the causality that I can't explain.  I think the transistor should still switch off before we see the voltage spike but I am not sure.  The scope probe placement issue may be a factor there.

MileHigh

Quote
This sounds plausible but it didn't come from you.  You have probably been hunting around a long time for information on Joule Thieves, and in one of your links you found a good technical article that described how a Joule Thief operates at low voltages and basically copied that information and wrote it into your posting.  Is that a fair assessment?

This most certainly dose come from me MH,and is !!!NOT!!! a copy or paste,or re-edit from any other article.
Now that you can see that i do have an amount of sound knowledge ,and know what im talking about,you revert to your next tactic--trying to discredit the experimenter.
I have told you time and time again--i have had good teacher's,like Vortex1,Poynt-etc. I then take what i have learned,and apply it to devices that !do! work based around what i have been taught.

So dont try your crap with me MH. I had the balls to post what i knew,while you just say--im not even going to try and work it out.
I have put you in your place once again MH,and you need to suck it up princess.

And your welcome.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 22, 2016, 06:48:23 AM
Brad:





Do you want to get the question so you can try to answer it?  You seem to be chomping at the bit so I can give it to you if you want it.

MileHigh

Quote
As you could see in your no-link hidden copy/paste about the operation of a Joule Thief circuit at lower voltages, you can indeed fully describe the operation of a circuit without having to have component values.  This concept is freaking you out because it is outside your realm of experience and your way of thinking or capacity of thinking with respect to electronics.  The reality is that it's done all the time and it's the normal way that people describe the operation of a circuit.

Go find that copy and paste article MH--you wont,because it came from me.
You are a sore looser-and that's is very evident here.
I wipped your ass,and you did not think i could, But now you know i can,you resort to some other type of discrediting tactic's.
EPIC fail MH--and here for everyone to see.
I bet you had it planed all along--the backup plan just in case i came good on the explanation--which you did not expect.
You didnt even have the balls to have a go your self,and the reason for that is--you just do not understand your self how it works-->facts MH,fact's.

You only have the ability to go by the book's,and when things are outside that realm,you fail--and fail badly-->as you have done on this thread.

Quote
You are really hung up on the EMJ question and accusing me of it being incomplete which of course is ridiculous again because I never even said what the question was.

Bullshit
It;s posted on this thread--another fail MH
A question even your self cannot anser. You know you have fell in your own hole,and now it's that deep,you cant get out.
Facts MH,facts


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2016, 06:51:47 AM

I'm not sure if your scope shot is for the standard Joule Thief running at 500 mV with a 1K resistor, or,...
MileHigh

when this started, we used 100 Ohm (standard),  at what point did this become 1k Ohms?
JT's can be used with virtually any range of base resistor (depending upon the transistor used)

This is the problem with trying to claim a "standard" circuit.
Once you define this you eliminate all other Joule Thief circuits created before or after the one you specifically reference.

You are still missing the point that Armstrong's equations still hold true , REGARDLESS of what components you choose!!
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 22, 2016, 06:56:22 AM
Not a chance.  It's more like you were too immature to just tell me which posting and likewise you are too immature to admit that it's just a paste from somewhere else.  It's just like when you are challenged about Joule Thief operating voltages and your fake response is to say "Everybody is only interested in Joule Thieves operating at lower voltages."  It's a pattern.  It's Brad's continuous BS on the fly to make it look like you are never wrong - which is extremely immature.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 22, 2016, 06:59:49 AM
Quote
You are still missing the point that Armstrong's equations still hold true

What's the dance floor about?  That's what I want to know.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2016, 07:27:31 AM
What's the dance floor about?  That's what I want to know.

Well, you see....

when you are out on the dance floor, surrounded by Trons and Hoes...

It doesn't really matter what your theory is,
the fact that you bothered to participate Is all that is necessary to get laid...
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 22, 2016, 07:36:01 AM
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg475158#msg475158 date=1456117360]
Brad:






MileHigh


Quote
You are really hung up on the EMJ question and accusing me of it being incomplete which of course is ridiculous again because I never even said what the question was.

Post 389 Quote MH:  I called his bluff and asked him how a circuit worked that consisted of only two components, a voltage source and a coil, and was unable to answer the question after he was talking about coils for months.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 22, 2016, 08:16:55 AM
Not a chance.  It's more like you were too immature to just tell me which posting and likewise you are too immature to admit that it's just a paste from somewhere else.  It's just like when you are challenged about Joule Thief operating voltages and your fake response is to say "Everybody is only interested in Joule Thieves operating at lower voltages."  It's a pattern.  It's Brad's continuous BS on the fly to make it look like you are never wrong - which is extremely immature.

Face it MH--you got smoked.
I did what you were no expecting me to be able to do--something you yourself couldnt explain.
My info and teachings come from all sorts of source MH--not just the book's.
Now we see you trying to save face,and say i just did a copy and paste job lol.
Trying to divert your losses by way if trying to discredit the experimenter. We all know you will not find any papers or links that show i did that,and all the evidence will indeed point toward my learnings from real EE guy's here and at OUR.

You see MH,i post the truth,and you post garbage. I have freely admited that i had no idea as to how the cool joule circuit was running without that inductive coupling between L1 and L2. But after some great debate on the OUR thread nearly 3 years ago,Vortex1 came up with the answer,and from that answer i have learned. Along with additional information found in many places,we can put all this knowledge together,and get circuits to work based around that information--we learn MH ;)
You were not even going to give it a go--and i did-and i got it right-->much to your shock.
Always expect the unexpected MH,as you have seen here-it can bite you on the ass.

You made the mistake MH, that i could not possibly learn that fast,and now you know different. Now you go to plan B,because you do not like to be out done by some amateur benchtop experimenter. Now your next angle is to try and discredit the experimenter,as loosing to him is not on your acceptable list. Your angle here on this thread alone,has become quite evident.

Thank's-but no thank's MH


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 22, 2016, 10:30:19 AM
Here is a circuit from Lasersaber that seems to use the 'capacitance' between the 2 windings to complete the base trigger circuit. lrC anyone? ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 22, 2016, 12:23:20 PM
Brad:

My objective on here was to discuss how a Joule Thief normally operates because a lot of incorrect information was being given.  That has been successfully done.  During the battle over that subject you talked a lot of whackadoo nonsense at times.  You said all of the online references were wrong.  You even were parroting the transistor junction capacitance stuff over into the discussion about the Joule Thief in normal operating mode because at first you were failing to distinguish between the two modes.  The use of language in that paragraph is totally different from the style and cadence of how you normally compose text.

In post #157 you said this:

Quote
Set up a bifilar coil with a steel laminated core,where the core is two separate halves -1 half will see the flow of charge into the magnetic center,and the other half will see the flow of charge out from the magnetic center. Set up a simple self oscillating circuit,and run the LED off the two core halves,where you two core halves act like capacitor plates,and are charged every pulse. this way you can bring your frequency up to a resonant state,where the amplitude is at maximum,and power draw at a minimum.

That's a typical "Brad from Planet Bizarro" posting.  So you can't just go from your typical puzzling and awkward technical prose to a decent discussion of transistor modeling at low voltages with internal capacitance coupling like some magical Mr. Hyde to Dr. Jekyll transformation.

That discussion from somewhere else that you posted sounded quite credible but you never "wrapped it up and made it whole" and discussed a full oscillation cycle from start to end.  You never made reference to how the operating frequency was determined.  So my instincts are telling me the parroting got you close, but not quite all the way there.

Your post #430 is another one of those "shaking my head" moments and that would apply equally to all of the readers of the thread also.  Just another jaw-dropping moment.

Finally, Magluvin posted another Joule Thief schematic that was taken from a posted pdf from the early days in this very thread and I am reposting it here.  What a shocker eh?  They list the battery voltage as having a range of 0.3 volts to 1.5 volts.  It makes all of your whining and pleading that "Everybody wants to use a Joule Thief at low voltages only!" to justify your bullshit to try to make yourself infallible look laughable.

Your low-voltage discussion that came from who knows where might be credible, I am not sure.  I wasn't here for that, I just wanted to go over how a Joule Thief normally operates.  And what a slog that was with all of the battling and baiting and switching, most of it simply ridiculous stuff to keep the imaginary halo over your head.  In the end you stopped challenging me and you agree with the basic pulse circuit operation with the positive-feedback regenerative switching that makes the thing oscillate at an operating frequency, not a resonant frequency.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 22, 2016, 12:35:35 PM
Here is a circuit from Lasersaber that seems to use the 'capacitance' between the 2 windings to complete the base trigger circuit. lrC anyone? ;)

Mags

No kidding, it looks like a circuit that may have been purpose-designed-and-built to use "capacitance."

You can claim that cars have four wheels and I can "get you" by posting pictures of cars that have been purpose-designed-and-built with three wheels.  ;)
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 22, 2016, 12:51:11 PM
Well, you see....

when you are out on the dance floor, surrounded by Trons and Hoes...

It doesn't really matter what your theory is,
the fact that you bothered to participate Is all that is necessary to get laid...

You will recall this posting #390 from you with your little treatise on diodes for me:  http://overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/msg474966/#msg474966 (http://overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/msg474966/#msg474966)

Quote
once you learn this, we can move on to the concept of capacitance, within the diode.

maybe tomorrow I can teach you how a WIRE works....

Later I said this:

Quote
Depending on which tune is playing the trons and the hoes might eye each other across the dance floor on opposite sides of the room like so many wallflowers.  Then the DJ puts on a new tune and the trons and the hoes race towards each other in the center of the dance floor in a frenzy and make contact and seemingly leave this plane of existence.

The DJ is really good, and as the Millenniums say these days, "He is dope."

Well, you see....

when you are out on the dance floor, surrounded by Trons and Hoes...

Smoky2, they just flooded the dance floor with smoke....

I was describing a diode to you with my dance floor story.  Looks like you slipped on the smoke oil trying to do your best John Travolta.

MileHigh
   
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 22, 2016, 12:55:14 PM
Here is a circuit from Lasersaber that seems to use the 'capacitance' between the 2 windings to complete the base trigger circuit. lrC anyone? ;)

Mags

Maybe use the negative resistance effect of certain transistors to make an oscillator? ;)


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 22, 2016, 06:59:00 PM
Played with different turns ratios. Seems to work best near 1 to 1.  Found a wound core from a pc supply that has 4 separate windings. Nice n tight and evenly wound. Going to try 2 windings in series bifi to increase capacitance and possibly lower the resonant freq and use a 3rd for trigger. And try putting led across 4th.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 22, 2016, 08:30:22 PM
Played with different turns ratios. Seems to work best near 1 to 1.  Found a wound core from a pc supply that has 4 separate windings. Nice n tight and evenly wound. Going to try 2 windings in series bifi to increase capacitance and possibly lower the resonant freq and use a 3rd for trigger. And try putting led across 4th.

Mags


Have you ever tried the "Jeanna" circuit?  I would have to check my video but I think it was like 400 turns, 13 turns and 4 turns (3 windings) and used a TIP3055 transistor with a 22 ohm resistor.  Outputs about 700 volts.  Lidmotor has a great video on how to make one.


Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Lidmotor on February 22, 2016, 08:47:49 PM
 Here is 'Jeanna's Light'.  It was very popular back in those days but we ran out of a good source for that big old ferrite toroid.  Jeanna found them at a surplus outlet and they soon ran out of them.  I only got one.  This light ended up 'boxed' and is on my shelf still today. It runs better on a little higher voltage.  Bill--I think that is what you did on your build.  Here is that 1/2 million hit video I did that got so many people excited:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAakZTR_4LE

  I have been working on a blend of Tinman's circuit and my Penny oscillator and I have had great success so far.  Slider is working on it also.  This Joule Thief topic is very interesting to some of us old tinker types who let the technical discussion guide us.  Thanks.

 ---Rusty
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 23, 2016, 02:22:27 AM
Thanks Rusty, I was going to search for your video and post a link, now I don't have to.  I know you explained the circuit much better than I did and I believe I copied your schematic in my vid, ha ha.  My light still works and I use it.  I did remove the VR's as they were not rated for enough power and I burned them out pretty fast.  I think you used a rheostat right?  My pots were only rated at like 1/4 amp.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 23, 2016, 05:17:02 AM

Have you ever tried the "Jeanna" circuit?  I would have to check my video but I think it was like 400 turns, 13 turns and 4 turns (3 windings) and used a TIP3055 transistor with a 22 ohm resistor.  Outputs about 700 volts.  Lidmotor has a great video on how to make one.


Bill

Hey Bill

Its totally possible that with only 2 individual windings that Im missing out on something.  My last try was with very few turns on the base control winding compared to the secondary drive winding. It just didnt seem to have the range of operation as the 1 to 1, or even not work at all with 1 or 2 turns compared to say 40 on the drive winding. Too little base biasing?  This has been my first experience with this circuit the past week or more it has been. Ive tried a lot of things, some that probably had never been tried before, like using a shorted winding and finding that it can still work well and the freq of operation was raised to very high multiples than without the shorted winding.  That there was a little bit of an eye opener for me in the fact that the shorted winding didnt kill the circuit operation or cause excessive input draw, but nearly the same draw with similar brightness as without the shorted winding. In a normal situation it would be disastrous to have a shorted winding in a transformer. But in the normal situations that we may encounter, say a simple 60hz transformer, dont really have the option of self adjusting freq to the conditions of the circuit. That alone has brought me to a new level of understanding. And I hope it does others. As a shorted winding isnt 'always' a terribly bad thing. ;D In a way, im using it as a freq of operation multiplier, all in hopes of it helping me get the thing into the realm of resonant freq of the transformer.  Havnt been able to get up there without it. I think Im getting close. Seems to be upwards near 2 to 3mhz that I need to be. Next purchase would be a sig gen to identify these resonant freq without all the guess work.

So far Im just fiddling to get used to changing things and getting a deep feel for what does what... and trying some whacky things that may come to mind. Like last night I had 3 leds in 3 different places in the circuit and all three lit of near equal brightness at the same time. Even 2 leds in parallel without resistors on each would light.  Not really the case for 2 leds in direct parallel connection, from what I know. If one conducts first because the other has a very slight difference in conducting range, the other will not. In most all cases i have seen there is either a resistor in series with each led in parallel circuit. But it may be that the input pulse is high enough that the led's leads are enough resistance so each is biased enough to conduct and light up seemingly equal to each other.  I dunno. Maybe Im just a nut bag. :o ;D
Havnt tried it lately but have in the past where if 2 leds are in parallel, only one would light, the one with the lowest turn on bias ability. Maybe thats just with old stone age leds of my past.

For now Im still playing to get the feel for what changes in the circuit does what. Once I get a real hang of it and know it down pat, then when I want to make changes to the circuit, I can make educated guesses as to what the outcome will be by knowing what affects what in the circuit.


Ok. I feel I am babbling.  Tired. Was up all night, no sleep, working on a sound system in a vw gti. Sometimes I just cant quit. So if anything I just wrote doesnt make sense, or seems nutty, well, then Im just a tired old nut at this moment. :o :o :o :D

Mags








Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 23, 2016, 08:38:43 AM
@ mags

looking forward to your results

I never experimented with anything as low as a 1:1.

I started with 22 windings, which I guess would be an 11:11, considering the center tap?

many replicators carelessly wound these "bifilar",
while I myself preferred to wind them, each wire at a time, in the same fashion.
This decreased the imperfections in the coils that may lead off the "true slope"

greater perfection resulted in a cleaner signal.
once I got the sine as clean as I could, within the primary coil:

all other advancements were done using a secondary winding on top of the JT primary, on the same ferrite torroid.
even my experiments that daisy-chained multiple torroids, were all driven by a secondary in this manner.
the secondary was not electrically connected to the JT, and only driven by the inductive coupling through the ferrite.
The signal on the secondary was usually "cleaner" than the primary, as it was a function of the inductors resonance,
not including the destructive feedback from the primary circuit.

everything I did was built upon this baseline.

It is nice to see someone going beyond that to make it simpler, one to one winding and observe the limitations of induction.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 23, 2016, 09:07:44 AM
people get lost in a cloud of dreams when they look at a Joule Thief.
it is not magic, it is not overunity
what a "JT" does best, is something of great economic impact, but it has nothing to do with free energy research.
It can be used as a tool for assessing economic value of portable energy.

most people look at it and see something special because ooh wow, a light is working with not enough voltage!
oh my...

lets look at a comparable novelty that toys with current, rather than voltage

a man whos car battery died, he cranked and cranked and it will crank no more...
I walk up with what looks to him to be a "bunch of wires"
and start his car using his "dead" battery.

now, me - understanding that the battery in his car, while charged up around 11-13v can provide several hundred amps of current,
  but when depleted to around 8-9v, it cannot compete with the resistance of the starter circuit, and thus there is not enough current to perform the task.
by lowering the resistance, through multiple paths, I am able to provide enough current to start the engine.

to the man with the broke down car - I did something magical, in starting his engine with a "dead" battery.

all I did was verify Ohm's law.
The Joule Thief is no different.

change battery types and you will find that some batteries have "more energy" available below the 1.0v range, than others.
This can be measured directly, or estimated by "run times" etc.

the "best" batteries are made by Energizer
These provide more available current in the range that most devices operate.
thus, when used in a JT, they have the least available energy for a "dead" battery.
This is important, because we BUY energy based on an economic standard.
even in batteries.

Cheaper batteries that "die" faster in modern devices (despite their MaHr rating),
have more low-voltage current left in them after they are "dead".
Thus, they will work better in Joule Thief applications.

- This is why the same batteries should be used for testing any type of circuit like this.
not only the same type/brand, but similar voltage levels, when testing.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 23, 2016, 09:10:45 AM
@ mags

looking forward to your results

I never experimented with anything as low as a 1:1.

I started with 22 windings, which I guess would be an 11:11, considering the center tap?

many replicators carelessly wound these "bifilar",
while I myself preferred to wind them, each wire at a time, in the same fashion.
This decreased the imperfections in the coils that may lead off the "true slope"

greater perfection resulted in a cleaner signal.
once I got the sine as clean as I could, within the primary coil:

all other advancements were done using a secondary winding on top of the JT primary, on the same ferrite torroid.
even my experiments that daisy-chained multiple torroids, were all driven by a secondary in this manner.
the secondary was not electrically connected to the JT, and only driven by the inductive coupling through the ferrite.
The signal on the secondary was usually "cleaner" than the primary, as it was a function of the inductors resonance,
not including the destructive feedback from the primary circuit.

everything I did was built upon this baseline.

It is nice to see someone going beyond that to make it simpler, one to one winding and observe the limitations of induction.

1:1 is the turn ratio of the two windings smoky2--not the number of turns.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 23, 2016, 02:11:37 PM
Smoky2:

Quote
lets look at a comparable novelty that toys with current, rather than voltage

a man whos car battery died, he cranked and cranked and it will crank no more...
I walk up with what looks to him to be a "bunch of wires"
and start his car using his "dead" battery.

now, me - understanding that the battery in his car, while charged up around 11-13v can provide several hundred amps of current,
  but when depleted to around 8-9v, it cannot compete with the resistance of the starter circuit, and thus there is not enough current to perform the task.
by lowering the resistance, through multiple paths, I am able to provide enough current to start the engine.

to the man with the broke down car - I did something magical, in starting his engine with a "dead" battery.

all I did was verify Ohm's law.

What did you do?  Usually you have a very thick wire connection from the battery to the starter motor to support the high cranking amps.  So from your description it's hard to imagine what you really did.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 23, 2016, 06:09:21 PM
Smoky2:

What did you do?  Usually you have a very thick wire connection from the battery to the starter motor to support the high cranking amps.  So from your description it's hard to imagine what you really did.

MileHigh

What would you do with a joule thief?
(perhaps in some fantasy world where you actually do the things you talk about, rather than just imagine them)
maybe light up an LED, stand around in a circle watching it glow, imagining some genie in a bottle sucking the last
of the battery power for your bidding?

If you imagine the act, in terms of the purpose for which it is used, you can never understand what is really going on.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 23, 2016, 06:37:34 PM
I asked you a straight question so how about a straight answer?

You have been playing the "guru" game and I am not convinced at all.  You thought that you were "toying" with me with respect to diodes and I then described a diode to you and it flew right over your head.

So can you just give me a straight answer about how you got a car with a dead battery to start with a "bunch of wires?"
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 23, 2016, 06:48:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjgemF5zpeE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHI7LnVWBlY
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 24, 2016, 07:42:46 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al0zX8V6q-U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al0zX8V6q-U)

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 24, 2016, 12:51:57 PM
Double facepalm?

I can't speak for TK but let me give you my take on this.

Is the "double facepalm" because TK showed a solar cell powering his Joule Thief and you linked to a Lidmotor Joule Thief clip also powered by a solar cell?  "So there!"

If so, then really?  Lidmotor did not make a single claim at all about his clip so what the heck?  I would call that a "double facepalm FAIL" on your part.

Still waiting on your comments about the starting of the car and if you say nothing that would be another FAIL.

Just keeping it real.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 24, 2016, 01:01:04 PM
Bill:

Two questions for you about Joule Thieves.

1. I am under the impression that for all these years you were believing that when a Joule Thief was up and running and driving a LED that it was in resonance.  Is this correct?  I thought I saw a comment from you about that.

If that's the case then I am assuming that now you have a much better understanding about how one works.  Is this true?

2.  I am also pretty sure that when you started stringing 10 or 20 LEDs together in series, that you have stated many times that each individual LED was the same apparent brightness as when you had just a single LED in the circuit.  It was only when you got to something like 40-plus LEDs in series that you started to notice that the individual LEDs were starting to get dimmer.

Is the above statement true?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 24, 2016, 02:28:10 PM
Well I am going to plow ahead and assume that for a typical Joule Thief that each of the 10 LEDs in series as the load is just as bright as a single LED as the load.

Well, that suggests that you are putting way too much power into the LED.  With a string of 10 LEDs as the example, then you should be able to reduce your LED power requirements for a single LED by 90%.

So how do you get there?

For starters, you need to measure the average power-in for the Joule Thief and compare it to to the LED power-out only to get the base level of efficiency for your Joule Thief.  And of course we know one important fact:  The average power consumption of a single LED will be approximately the same as the average power consumption of 10 LEDs in series.  We also know that the operating frequency will be approximately the same for the two configurations.

Supposing for the sake of argument you measure that the power consumption of the Joule Thief is 100 milliwatts.  Then you measure the power consumption of the LED alone and supposing it is 60 milliwatts.

That means that the LED power is 60 milliwatts, and the overhead for everything else is 40 miliwatts.

So that presents you with a design challenge:  Drop the LED power by a factor of 10 to six milliwatts and still have the same apparent brightness and have a total power consumption of 46 milliwatts.

Again, if your Joule Thief will light a string of 10 LEDs in series with the same apparent brightness for each LED as when it drives just a single LED, then that implies you can reduce the LED power consumption for a single LED by 90%.  So that means you reduce the power consumption of your Joule Thief from 100 milliwatts to 46 milliwatts.  That should give you more than twice the running time.

So that's an interesting design challenge to give yourself.

And for all you wankers that give me shit for not being a "doer" on the bench, bring on the stony silence and the blank stares.  I state that from past experience.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 24, 2016, 05:57:00 PM
Here is a totally radical Joule Thief "concept car" that I designed "paper napkin style" in my head today.  The chances of it outperforming a regular Joule Thief are almost zero but that's not the point.  The point is to think outside of the box and try something new.  If I had a bench and I was genuinely interested in this stuff I would build it myself.

There are three switches, and they are all programmed by a 555 timers or perhaps a super low power microcontrller.  The premise is that the power for the switching would be provided by an external fresh battery and you assume that that battery would last long enough to drain up to 100 batteries that actually power the Joule Thief.  Thus it is perfectly valid to have an external battery to power the timing system.

The basic principle of operation is that current is always flowing through the coil.  The current is occasionally given a boost (like boosting the International Space station in its orbit) by connecting the battery with S1.  The LED is occasionally lit by opening the bypass switch S3.  S2 is there to complete the current loop, and the diode is there to give the current a bypass when S2 switches.

It's radical, but it does give you 100% full control over how much current is flowing in the loop and thus the brightness of the LED when it is switched ON.  It also gives you full control over the ON/OFF duty cycle of the LED.

Note that the issue of the sloping voltage/current waveform for a regular Joule Thief is eliminated.  The assumption is that the inductance is quite large and the current through the LED when it is ON is nearly flat and unchanging.

Think outside of the bloody box.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 24, 2016, 06:10:06 PM
@ mags

looking forward to your results

I never experimented with anything as low as a 1:1.

I started with 22 windings, which I guess would be an 11:11, considering the center tap?

many replicators carelessly wound these "bifilar",
while I myself preferred to wind them, each wire at a time, in the same fashion.
This decreased the imperfections in the coils that may lead off the "true slope"

greater perfection resulted in a cleaner signal.
once I got the sine as clean as I could, within the primary coil:

all other advancements were done using a secondary winding on top of the JT primary, on the same ferrite torroid.
even my experiments that daisy-chained multiple torroids, were all driven by a secondary in this manner.
the secondary was not electrically connected to the JT, and only driven by the inductive coupling through the ferrite.
The signal on the secondary was usually "cleaner" than the primary, as it was a function of the inductors resonance,
not including the destructive feedback from the primary circuit.

everything I did was built upon this baseline.

It is nice to see someone going beyond that to make it simpler, one to one winding and observe the limitations of induction.

Yeah, the 1 to 1 was turn ratios.  I will try separate windings like you said and wind them neat. My last pic with the larger toroid was separate windings, but not neat anymore as it was in a box with some stuff for a while and was a lil banged up. And many more turns. Ill try the 11 and 11 and see what we get. ;D

Finishing up this gti sound system this week, as I do it on the side at my shop, but work at another shop during the day. So will have more time to fiddle.

Thanks for the help. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 24, 2016, 06:10:24 PM
Just a few comments on the switches.  Assume that they are all semiconductor-based switches and here is where I am pretty much out of my element because I have not done this type of discrete electronics stuff in more than 20 years.  I am sure a lot of new stuff has come out since then.

S3 is probably the easiest, perhaps just a few FETs in parallel or MOSFETS.  Naturally you are trying to get the ON resistance to be as low as possible.

S2 is there because there would be too much power lost in the diode alone.  You need to normally bypass that diode to prevent the power loss.

More or less the same thing applies to S1 you need a semiconductor switche with the lowest resistance possible.  The whole premise for the design is that you have a big coil with current flowing through it where you occasionally "top off the current" with a battery and occasionally draw some energy from the coil when you light the LED.  So resistance is the enemy and it probably is not a practical circuit because of this fact.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Lidmotor on February 24, 2016, 08:40:29 PM
 I have been looking into ways to get energy to power low energy devices for years.  The video I posted showing the loop antenna tuner was done to see if perhaps ambient RF could enhance a Joule Thief.  The tiny solar panel supplied the input energy.  The crude experiment was interesting but inconclusive.  I did find this today about a company in the UK that has a patent on a device called the 'Freevolt' that does harvest enough room RF to run tiny loads. 
http://www.engadget.com/2015/09/30/freevolt-free-energy/
 
MH:
  Your 'outside the box' JT is interesting but I really don't understand it.  It did remind me of one design that was shown years ago where the oscillator had a second button cell power source that was dedicated strictly for transistor switching.  The drain on the button cell was tiny and the cell could run a long time.  I never built one but it looked interesting.  Maybe Bill remembers it and can link to it.  To me that was a good example of 'outside the box thinking' that most experimenters don't do.  I know a guy who built a JT using dollar store green steel twist tie wire. How weird is that?  I think he called it 'Penny'.

---Rusty
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 25, 2016, 02:11:31 AM
Bill:

Two questions for you about Joule Thieves.

1. I am under the impression that for all these years you were believing that when a Joule Thief was up and running and driving a LED that it was in resonance.  Is this correct?  I thought I saw a comment from you about that.

If that's the case then I am assuming that now you have a much better understanding about how one works.  Is this true?

2.  I am also pretty sure that when you started stringing 10 or 20 LEDs together in series, that you have stated many times that each individual LED was the same apparent brightness as when you had just a single LED in the circuit.  It was only when you got to something like 40-plus LEDs in series that you started to notice that the individual LEDs were starting to get dimmer.

Is the above statement true?

MileHigh

1.  Not exactly correct.  At first, I thought that when you "tuned" (using a vr to the base) and the led got a lot brighter, that it was a type of resonance.  I was told this back then and, it seemed to fit because you could adjust the resistance and get the led to be very bright...move the vr a tiny bit up, or down and the led dimmed.  Later, we just called this the sweet spot.  What I am saying is that we found that you could go past the sweet spot and have to adjust back to it.  Also, about this time I learned how to properly measure the amp draw (mA draw, ha ha) in these circuits and found that you could tune the base vr to achieve a very low mA draw.  You could watch the led while doing this and tune so you got a decent brightness with as low an amp draw as was possible given that circuit's parameters.  Thus, you could tune for max brightness, or tune for max running time with still usable light.  So, I don't think we still called it resonance, but it is possible that we did after that time.

2.  Close.  It was those led Christmas lights (man, what a bargain for $3/ string of 100 leds)  I found that I could light 100 of them with the Fuji AA battery JT and they were very bright.  Using the same circuit, I added another 100 and could not see any difference in the light output.  (This is where a light meter would have been very useful back then) Stefan told me that those lights must have been in series as that is the most efficient way to hook them up like that with many leds.  300 leds made it noticeably dimmer and 400 leds brought it down to about 1/2 brightness of what the 100/200 leds were.

I know this is going back a few years (7) and my memory is not 100%.  Before I did the 100 leds strings I think the most leds I lit from a JT had been 4 or 5 and that was using a "standard" JT circuit.  Once I learned how to mod the Fuji, I was off to the races, ha ha.  That was also the time I learned how to zap myself many times even if I was being careful.  Some of those really hurt, ha ha.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 25, 2016, 02:34:21 AM
Here is a totally radical Joule Thief "concept car" that I designed "paper napkin style" in my head today.  The chances of it outperforming a regular Joule Thief are almost zero but that's not the point.  The point is to think outside of the box and try something new.  If I had a bench and I was genuinely interested in this stuff I would build it myself.

There are three switches, and they are all programmed by a 555 timers or perhaps a super low power microcontrller.  The premise is that the power for the switching would be provided by an external fresh battery and you assume that that battery would last long enough to drain up to 100 batteries that actually power the Joule Thief.  Thus it is perfectly valid to have an external battery to power the timing system.

The basic principle of operation is that current is always flowing through the coil.  The current is occasionally given a boost (like boosting the International Space station in its orbit) by connecting the battery with S1.  The LED is occasionally lit by opening the bypass switch S3.  S2 is there to complete the current loop, and the diode is there to give the current a bypass when S2 switches.

It's radical, but it does give you 100% full control over how much current is flowing in the loop and thus the brightness of the LED when it is switched ON.  It also gives you full control over the ON/OFF duty cycle of the LED.

Note that the issue of the sloping voltage/current waveform for a regular Joule Thief is eliminated.  The assumption is that the inductance is quite large and the current through the LED when it is ON is nearly flat and unchanging.

Think outside of the bloody box.

MileHigh

You are so funny some times MH.
Throughout this thread,you have been stuck on one circuit that you deem to be !the! JT circuit.
Now your posting different circuit's,and telling everyone to !think outside the bloody box! lol

Fact is MH,most of us here have been doing that all along,while !you! where stuck in the box.


Brad.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 25, 2016, 02:35:07 AM
I have been looking into ways to get energy to power low energy devices for years.  The video I posted showing the loop antenna tuner was done to see if perhaps ambient RF could enhance a Joule Thief.  The tiny solar panel supplied the input energy.  The crude experiment was interesting but inconclusive.  I did find this today about a company in the UK that has a patent on a device called the 'Freevolt' that does harvest enough room RF to run tiny loads. 
http://www.engadget.com/2015/09/30/freevolt-free-energy/
 
MH:
  Your 'outside the box' JT is interesting but I really don't understand it.  It did remind me of one design that was shown years ago where the oscillator had a second button cell power source that was dedicated strictly for transistor switching.  The drain on the button cell was tiny and the cell could run a long time.  I never built one but it looked interesting.  Maybe Bill remembers it and can link to it.  To me that was a good example of 'outside the box thinking' that most experimenters don't do.  I know a guy who built a JT using dollar store green steel twist tie wire. How weird is that?  I think he called it 'Penny'.

---Rusty

 ;)
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: hoptoad on February 25, 2016, 06:40:02 AM
Also another good old Lidmotor video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSpVuxD1hY4
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 25, 2016, 06:43:37 AM
Rusty:

Quote
MH:
  Your 'outside the box' JT is interesting but I really don't understand it.  It did remind me of one design that was shown years ago where the oscillator had a second button cell power source that was dedicated strictly for transistor switching.  The drain on the button cell was tiny and the cell could run a long time.  I never built one but it looked interesting.  Maybe Bill remembers it and can link to it.  To me that was a good example of 'outside the box thinking' that most experimenters don't do.  I know a guy who built a JT using dollar store green steel twist tie wire. How weird is that?  I think he called it 'Penny'.

---Rusty

It's all based on the inertia of the current flowing through the coil.  Please see the attached stripped down version of the design.  Let's assume that the normal current rating for the LED is 20 milliamperes.  I will assume that you have a variable bench power supply so you could adjust the voltage so that you get the desired 20 miliamps of current flow.

There are coil design issues to consider.  There is not too much current flow so there is a concern about how much energy you can store in the toroidal core.  But you also don't want too many turns wrapped around the toroid because that will mean too much wire resistance.  For the sake of argument suppose you settle on five turns of thick wire around the toroidal core.

When you manually make contact and connect the positive of the power supply to the coil/diode junction, the LED lights fully say after a half second of contact, and when you disconnect the power supply the LED remains lit for say half a second.

That means that by making intermittent contact with an alligator clip in your hand, you will see the LED remains permanently lit.  So then you are just a short step away from using a signal generator and a transistor in an emitter-follower configuration to control the switching of the power supply in and out of the circuit.

The net result is this:  Let's say you connect the battery into the circuit with a 10 Hz pulse train that has a 15% duty cycle.  That's the "gate" that controls the "pushing" of the inductor.  This will give you near-DC through the LED.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Lidmotor on February 25, 2016, 07:27:11 AM
MH:
  That make a lot more sense to me.   Thanks.  I could probably lash up something using a CMOS 555 and give it a go.  I think you are right about it not beating a JT but it is something very new and different to try.  The guys with the good testing tools could have some fun testing it.

Hoptoad:
  Thanks for posting that old video of the two Penny oscillators having a little chat.  I actually had forgotten about that one.  Here is the video that has the circuit diagram and build description of the device if anyone is interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLeC9bHMeiY
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 25, 2016, 04:00:24 PM
Rusty:

I did a proto-schematic this time, see attached.  I show the potentials in the loop in red when the LED is illuminated and S1 is OFF, and the potentials in brackets are for when S1 is ON and the LED is illuminated.

Note you could use one CMOS 555 to drive S1 and S2, I would suggest it be running off 4.5 or 5 volt battery source.  You would drive S1 with a low-duty-cycle pulse and connect the complimentary output to S2.  So when S1 is ON then S2 is OFF and vice-versa.  You could use a second CMOS 555 to drive S3.  S3 is your "LED flasher" that allows you to take advantage of the persistence of human vision.  The two timers would be completely independent of each other.  More importantly, you want S2 and S3 to be ON (CLOSED) most of the time to reduce the power drain on the main coil when the LED is not lit.

Note I show this with NPN transistors.  Since they are switching only about 20 miliamperes, the base resistors can be quite high in value.  However, presumably most of the time S2 and S3 will be ON, which represents a power drain to the battery powering the timing circuit.  If you assume that one or more FETs or MOSFETs in parallel will give you as good or better an ON resistance, then that would probably be the better choice because there is no power drain on the timing circuit to keep a FET ON.

Note that with a big coil when the LED is flashing ON with a low duty cycle and a 30 Hz or greater repetition rate, the current through the LED will be essentially flat.  By adjusting the pulse with of the CMOS 555 controlling S1 you can set the current through the LED to an optimized value.  Contrast that with the attached scope shot showing the potential inefficiencies with a typical Joule Thief LED waveform.

In essence, you can play with the perceived brightness of the LED by setting the current level with the S1 duty cycle, and by playing with the S3 duty cycle and frequency.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 25, 2016, 04:39:21 PM
1.  Not exactly correct.  At first, I thought that when you "tuned" (using a vr to the base) and the led got a lot brighter, that it was a type of resonance.  I was told this back then and, it seemed to fit because you could adjust the resistance and get the led to be very bright...move the vr a tiny bit up, or down and the led dimmed.  Later, we just called this the sweet spot.  What I am saying is that we found that you could go past the sweet spot and have to adjust back to it.  Also, about this time I learned how to properly measure the amp draw (mA draw, ha ha) in these circuits and found that you could tune the base vr to achieve a very low mA draw.  You could watch the led while doing this and tune so you got a decent brightness with as low an amp draw as was possible given that circuit's parameters.  Thus, you could tune for max brightness, or tune for max running time with still usable light.  So, I don't think we still called it resonance, but it is possible that we did after that time.

2.  Close.  It was those led Christmas lights (man, what a bargain for $3/ string of 100 leds)  I found that I could light 100 of them with the Fuji AA battery JT and they were very bright.  Using the same circuit, I added another 100 and could not see any difference in the light output.  (This is where a light meter would have been very useful back then) Stefan told me that those lights must have been in series as that is the most efficient way to hook them up like that with many leds.  300 leds made it noticeably dimmer and 400 leds brought it down to about 1/2 brightness of what the 100/200 leds were.

I know this is going back a few years (7) and my memory is not 100%.  Before I did the 100 leds strings I think the most leds I lit from a JT had been 4 or 5 and that was using a "standard" JT circuit.  Once I learned how to mod the Fuji, I was off to the races, ha ha.  That was also the time I learned how to zap myself many times even if I was being careful.  Some of those really hurt, ha ha.

Bill

Well, like I stated before, the base resistor in a Joule Thief is not supposed to be varied at all.  Rather, it is supposed to be based on the EMF coming from the feedback coil and the amount of base current required to switch the transistor hard ON, which is based on the maximum current that will flow through the main coil.  The real way to change the way the Joule Thief operates is to play with the size of the core, and the number of turns in the primary and the secondary.  The value of the base resistor "falls out" from those and related parameters.  Any astute electronics experimenter should be able to show exactly how the value of the base resistor is determined for a given standard Joule Thief configuration.

For the issue of the LEDs in series, I am close enough.  If you build a Joule Thief and you are driving a single LED, and you like the illumination level, and then you try 10 LEDs in series and get the same illumination level in each individual LED, then that is telling you that you can reduce the power going into the single LED by a factor of 10.  So if you are a keener and you are up to it, you can challenge yourself to figure out how to do that.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 25, 2016, 04:59:44 PM
Well, like I stated before, the base resistor in a Joule Thief is not supposed to be varied at all.  Rather, it is supposed to be based on the EMF coming from the feedback coil and the amount of base current required to switch the transistor hard ON, which is based on the maximum current that will flow through the main coil.  The real way to change the way the Joule Thief operates is to play with the size of the core, and the number of turns in the primary and the secondary.  The value of the base resistor "falls out" from those and related parameters.  Any astute electronics experimenter should be able to show exactly how the value of the base resistor is determined for a given standard Joule Thief configuration.

For the issue of the LEDs in series, I am close enough.  If you build a Joule Thief and you are driving a single LED, and you like the illumination level, and then you try 10 LEDs in series and get the same illumination level in each individual LED, then that is telling you that you can reduce the power going into the single LED by a factor of 10.  So if you are a keener and you are up to it, you can challenge yourself to figure out how to do that.

MileHigh


But, as we all found out early on, as the voltage in the battery drops, everything that you had balanced perfectly in the JT circuit starts to drift away...so, if you tuned the base resistor for the brightest light at a battery voltage of 1 volt, as the battery drains down to say, .7 volts, your led will no longer be as bright so, you dial in the base resistance with your vr and, now you are back to having a bright led.  You can do this down to where the battery is too low to switch the transistor on.  This gives you the maximum light you are ever going to get from that battery using those components.


If you built the optimum JT circuit using the perfect windings and components, and I had one of my "regular" JT circuits and we both started out with a battery of 1 volt, I'll bet that when we got to .7 volts or so, I could make my led much brighter than yours by a simple tune of the base resistor...your circuit was perfect for 1 volt, .7 volts and below...not so much.


Does this make any sense?


We were seeing out nice little circuits drift all over the place as the battery was depleted so being able to adjust the base resistance really helped.  Also, adding a decent size cap in series with the led helped a lot too.


Now, with the circuit you have proposed, having "constant" power to the coil would nearly eliminate this issue, or at least make it where you didn't even notice any difference in the led operation as that battery would not be allowed to go down to say .4 volts or so.


I guess what I am saying is that we learned, or think we learned, that the "best" set-up for a simple JT was a moving target that you could only "hit" in a certain range unless you could adjust your circuit along the way as the battery drained.


Bill


PS  I look forward to seeing what Lidmotor does with your circuit.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 25, 2016, 05:14:55 PM
You are so funny some times MH.
Throughout this thread,you have been stuck on one circuit that you deem to be !the! JT circuit.
Now your posting different circuit's,and telling everyone to !think outside the bloody box! lol

Fact is MH,most of us here have been doing that all along,while !you! where stuck in the box.

Brad.

Well you are wrong again Brad.  A Joule Thief circuit is a blocking oscillator, and the heart of a blocking oscillator is based on energizing an inductor and then "blocking" the the inductor discharge.  This is done using digital switching so that the discharge gets rerouted through an LED.  The circuit that I posted has the fundamental trait of having an inductor energized and then the discharge goes through an LED and it also uses digital switching.  It will not outperform a Joule Thief with respect to LED illumination time or how low a battery voltage it can work at, but it does have an architecture based around the fundamental concepts of energizing and discharging an inductor, and digital switching.  That's in contrast to some kind of feedback oscillator that can also drain a battery but it has nothing to do with a blocking oscillator, energizing and then discharging an inductor, or digital switching.

You talk about being "stuck in the box," take a look at the attached image.  I am willing to bet you that the issue of the potential inefficiencies in the decaying voltage/current waveform through the LED when driven by a standard Joule Thief have never been discussed by a lot of people on the forums.  It's possible that I am the first person to ever raise this issue.  Yet many experimenters, probably you included, have stared at this waveform blankly and never even mentioned it.  Talk about being "stuck in a box" when something is staring you in the face.

So for you and others who know who they are, don't give me this bullshit that I am "stuck in a box" or "I don't do experiments" or, "I only know what is in books."  I have posted several times that I estimated once that I have about 3500 hours of bench work under my belt and I assume that you are aware of that.  The whining about me is just a cop-out.

The simple truth is that the kind of basic electronics stuff that you do around here, I haven't done in more than 30 years, and yet I can still whip most of your asses with one hand tied behind my back.  Even now, I could literally spin circles around you on a bench and I don't even really like electronics.  And to put everything in a proper context, people like Verpies and Picowatt and Poynt99 can easily spin circles around me on a bench.  I am no hard-core low-level-details electronics or electromagnetics guy at all, I don't even like it particularly and I was glad that I walked away from working on a bench.  I threw all my TTL and CMOS chips and components and power supplies away more than 20 years ago.

So stop your "you only know books" or "you're stuck in a box" or "you don't do real experiments" nonsense.  It's just used as a fake talking point "weapon" or as a diversionary tactic when things aren't going the way you thought they were supposed to be going or you or others want to try to hurt my credibility because I am talking straight.

This would be a typical example:  "Show me how you started a car with a dead battery."  Response:  "You don't do experiments."  It's pure nonsense.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 25, 2016, 05:42:36 PM
Bill:

In the whole discussion below I am talking about a normally operating Joule Thief.  I am not talking about what happens at very low voltages where the Joule Thief goes into some kind of high frequency oscillation mode.

Quote
But, as we all found out early on, as the voltage in the battery drops, everything that you had balanced perfectly in the JT circuit starts to drift away...so, if you tuned the base resistor for the brightest light at a battery voltage of 1 volt, as the battery drains down to say, .7 volts, your led will no longer be as bright so, you dial in the base resistance with your vr and, now you are back to having a bright led.  You can do this down to where the battery is too low to switch the transistor on.  This gives you the maximum light you are ever going to get from that battery using those components.


If you built the optimum JT circuit using the perfect windings and components, and I had one of my "regular" JT circuits and we both started out with a battery of 1 volt, I'll bet that when we got to .7 volts or so, I could make my led much brighter than yours by a simple tune of the base resistor...your circuit was perfect for 1 volt, .7 volts and below...not so much.


Does this make any sense?

It makes perfect sense and there are two schools of thought here and a fundamental concept.

The fundamental concept is this:  The base resistor is supposed to be a value that ensures that the digital switching operates normally.  There may be a "best" base resistor value when the battery voltage is 1.5 volts and a "best" base resistor value when the battery is 0.4 volts.  In both cases you have to have proper digital switching taking place and the real variable at play is how much power you burn off in the base resistor and what value helps you minimize this waste power.

However, suppose the battery is 1.5 volts and you get a very bright LED at say a low base resistor value.  The Joule Thief may not be switching properly here, the whole mechanism is out of whack and it's also drawing a lot of battery current.  You don't want to do that, you don't want to throw the whole circuit out of whack.

The first school of thought goes like this:  Design a Joule Thief for mass production with a fixed base resistor.  In that case you pick the right "compromise" base resistor value that will work well for a battery voltage range from 0.3 to 1.5 volts.  The assumption is that the switching is always normal during the full battery voltage range.  Yes, the LED gets dimmer as the battery voltage gets low, that's life.

The second school of thought is that you might indeed get better illumination performance if the base resistor is adjusted at low battery voltage.  In theory you would be getting better timing where you energize the coil longer before the switching occurs.  The caveat is that the Joule Thief circuit is still switching normally.  I am purely speculating here though, and some testing would have to be done to confirm this.  Can changing the base resistor value at low voltages change the timing so that the LED gets brighter but the circuit is still switching properly, or, are you getting a brighter LED because the whole circuit is out of whack and sucking power like crazy?  I don't know the answer to this.

The way I think is the from the first school of thought.  You can indeed make a wise choice for the value of the base resistor such that the Joule Thief switches normally during the full battery voltage range of 0.3 to 1.5 volts.  The fact that the LED gets dimmer as the battery voltage drops is fully expected and it is just a fact of life for a simple Joule Thief circuit.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 26, 2016, 03:43:45 PM
Well you are wrong again Brad.  A Joule Thief circuit is a blocking oscillator, and the heart of a blocking oscillator is based on energizing an inductor and then "blocking" the the inductor discharge.  This is done using digital switching so that the discharge gets rerouted through an LED.  The circuit that I posted has the fundamental trait of having an inductor energized and then the discharge goes through an LED and it also uses digital switching.  It will not outperform a Joule Thief with respect to LED illumination time or how low a battery voltage it can work at, but it does have an architecture based around the fundamental concepts of energizing and discharging an inductor, and digital switching.  That's in contrast to some kind of feedback oscillator that can also drain a battery but it has nothing to do with a blocking oscillator, energizing and then discharging an inductor, or digital switching.

You talk about being "stuck in the box," take a look at the attached image.  I am willing to bet you that the issue of the potential inefficiencies in the decaying voltage/current waveform through the LED when driven by a standard Joule Thief have never been discussed by a lot of people on the forums.  It's possible that I am the first person to ever raise this issue.  Yet many experimenters, probably you included, have stared at this waveform blankly and never even mentioned it.  Talk about being "stuck in a box" when something is staring you in the face.

So for you and others who know who they are, don't give me this bullshit that I am "stuck in a box" or "I don't do experiments" or, "I only know what is in books."  I have posted several times that I estimated once that I have about 3500 hours of bench work under my belt and I assume that you are aware of that.  The whining about me is just a cop-out.

The simple truth is that the kind of basic electronics stuff that you do around here, I haven't done in more than 30 years, and yet I can still whip most of your asses with one hand tied behind my back.  Even now, I could literally spin circles around you on a bench and I don't even really like electronics.  And to put everything in a proper context, people like Verpies and Picowatt and Poynt99 can easily spin circles around me on a bench.  I am no hard-core low-level-details electronics or electromagnetics guy at all, I don't even like it particularly and I was glad that I walked away from working on a bench.  I threw all my TTL and CMOS chips and components and power supplies away more than 20 years ago.

So stop your "you only know books" or "you're stuck in a box" or "you don't do real experiments" nonsense.  It's just used as a fake talking point "weapon" or as a diversionary tactic when things aren't going the way you thought they were supposed to be going or you or others want to try to hurt my credibility because I am talking straight.

This would be a typical example:  "Show me how you started a car with a dead battery."  Response:  "You don't do experiments."  It's pure nonsense.

MileHigh

And yet the diamond needle dosnt destroy the soft vinyl record like science says it should.
How is it that the hardest substance on earth dosnt just cut straight through those smale plastic bumps in the vinyl tracks?. Over and over you can play your record's without damage from a material that cuts the hardest of steels.--?one for the books MH.

So many things that good old science has the answers for,and yet never produced. 9 times out of 10,it comes from people that are no ruled by book's. For example-the plane. We all know that it is scientifically possible ,but the science guru's never came up with the plane--powered flight. It cam from a couple of brothers that owned a bicycle shop,that said--yes we can. They were the guys that did the job through experiments,and trial and error--not from book's.
In fact,most great discoveries came from trial and error,and the science to explain it came after.
The good old bumble bee was flying long before science worked out how it could do it--this was after some decided that it was an aerodynamic impossibility-now they know better.

There are many thing's left that science and books are yet to explain,and many of those discoveries will be made by those not ruled by book's,or some one elses science and law's.
Funny thing about scientific laws MH,is that they really are not laws at all--there a !best guess! based around only what we have observed so far. These are man's law's im talking about,not those set by nature it self.

If we are to stick with the book's MH,then there is no stone left unturned. But we here,and on other forums,choose to turn over the stones that are still face down. In the next ten years,i feel that you will see first hand how obsolete your books are,and the new discoveries will once again,be made by those that follow no such rules.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 26, 2016, 03:53:19 PM
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg475491#msg475491 date=1456418556]
Bill:



Quote
The way I think is the from the first school of thought.  You can indeed make a wise choice for the value of the base resistor such that the Joule Thief switches normally during the full battery voltage range of 0.3 to 1.5 volts.  The fact that the LED gets dimmer as the battery voltage drops is fully expected and it is just a fact of life for a simple Joule Thief circuit.

MileHigh

So show us your smart's MH--design a simple circuit that lowers the base resistance as the voltage in the battery drop's. You pride your self on bench time and knowledge,so show us some of that smarts. You draw up the circuit,and i'll spend the time and money putting it together,and testing it. I'll post the results and video's here.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 26, 2016, 06:49:22 PM
author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg475491#msg475491 date=1456418556]
Bill:



MileHigh

So show us your smart's MH--design a simple circuit that lowers the base resistance as the voltage in the battery drop's. You pride your self on bench time and knowledge,so show us some of that smarts. You draw up the circuit,and i'll spend the time and money putting it together,and testing it. I'll post the results and video's here.


Brad

While im at work, a lot of the time my mind is on this stuff. You and I are on the same plane it seems. I had thought of the 'exact' same thing. ;) To have the base control adjust as the batt voltage goes down.  Not sure of a self adjusting resistor but using another transistor(circuit) configured to do the job.

Good thought bud. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 26, 2016, 08:43:17 PM
author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg475491#msg475491 date=1456418556]
Bill:



MileHigh

So show us your smart's MH--design a simple circuit that lowers the base resistance as the voltage in the battery drop's. You pride your self on bench time and knowledge,so show us some of that smarts. You draw up the circuit,and i'll spend the time and money putting it together,and testing it. I'll post the results and video's here.


Brad


I had thought about this as well but dismissed it as I "assumed" the resistance adjusting circuit would waste more energy than it was worth.  Maybe I was wrong?


Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2016, 10:34:15 PM


MileHigh

So show us your smart's MH--design a simple circuit that lowers the base resistance as the voltage in the battery drop's. You pride your self on bench time and knowledge,so show us some of that smarts. You draw up the circuit,and i'll spend the time and money putting it together,and testing it. I'll post the results and video's here.


Brad

it is a difference in thinking. or perspective, point of view, etc.

in one side, you can preserve the AC wave properties of the inductor.

on the other, you can simply switch digitally, and the whole circuit acts similar to a simple boost converter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_converter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_converter)

while, yes you can test this and it will give some results, (ooh, the LED lights up!!)
it will only give insight on one way of thinking.

to understand how a battery voltage can be increased to light up an LED, you can look for those properties that do so.

To understand what goes on inside a Joule Thief,...
throw the LED out the window.....  it causes more problems with analysis than it benefits from the light it produces.
the Joule Thief "does" a lot more things than just boost the voltage from a DC source, to turn on a light emitting diode.

now,- MH may provide us with a circuit to "test".

But let us "test" a JT circuit, with no diode.

and let us test it using a single inductive loop, wrapped around the ferrite (preferably opposite the JT primary coil).
one turn, to the scope.
This gives us a representation of the magnetic waveform through the ferrite.
In this manner, the circuit can be viewed from the perspective of the inductor, while resistance is changed at the base.

This can be expanded by multiple turns on the secondary winding, to further boost the voltage, and impedance in the load-side of the circuit.
This separates any load, to the output side of the transformer. So only the inductive properties affect the operating frequency.



Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2016, 11:09:33 PM
there is only one effective "school of thought".

it is that which is taught in schools

transistors "switching properly"
inductors in the "normal range of operation"

we all have gone over the mathematics of recent days,
we know the circumstances where this "school of thought" explicitly instructs us NOT to go.
Why? What happens when we go there?
capacitors explode, wires burn up, resistors, diodes and transistors fail.
all this happens in circuits that were designed to be well within the tolerances of the components involved.

There are reasons we are taught NOT to do these things.

I will not ignorantly claim these energies to be "overunity" by any definition of the term.
by the contrary, all of the energy involved, we ourselves put into the circuit.

the difference in this "school of thought", is that the normal operation of a circuit,
we throw it all away.

it is our practice to dump everything to circuit ground.

not to loop it back around through itself.

here is one example of a different "school of thought".
this circuit as
proposed by one of our peers, for analysis of the feedback loop.
was presented to me recently.

the effects of this are most prominently demonstrated
as the timing through the feedback loop approaches a phase balance with the input frequency.
the results are quite interesting

[note that this is half-wave AC rectification, and behaves quite differently than its Pulsed DC square wave digital counterpart]
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 26, 2016, 11:18:58 PM
author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg475491#msg475491 date=1456418556]
MileHigh

So show us your smart's MH--design a simple circuit that lowers the base resistance as the voltage in the battery drop's. You pride your self on bench time and knowledge,so show us some of that smarts. You draw up the circuit,and i'll spend the time and money putting it together,and testing it. I'll post the results and video's here.

Brad

You have to back up first.  Who says that you need a variable resistor for a Joule Thief?  I am not aware of that requirement.  The only thing that I am aware of is that it was done all the time in the old days of this thread, presumably without any serious circuit analysis or scope work done to see what was happening.  It was just an anecdotal observation that the LED changed in intensity when you changed the base resistance.

You are suggesting it so it suggests a question for you:  Why do you want to have a variable base resistor in a standard Joule Thief?

With respect to a voltage-controlled resistor, I did what anybody would do.  I did a Google search.  I saw techniques that used an FET in its linear range which seems reasonable.  I saw more sophisticated techniques using operational amplifiers and others using opto-isolators.  However, there are going to be constraints and limitations with each one of these techniques, and it's undetermined if one of these methods would plug into a standard Joule Thief.  What about power consumption issues?

So for starters, how about backing up.  Why do you want to have a variable base resistor in a standard Joule Thief?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2016, 11:35:41 PM

I had thought about this as well but dismissed it as I "assumed" the resistance adjusting circuit would waste more energy than it was worth.  Maybe I was wrong?


Bill

if the inductance and impedance factors are "just right" within the oscillator,
it does not need to be adjusted very often. (depending on the load).
superbrights seem to give the best light -to- energy ratios, which lead to longer run times.

it seems as though the older LED technology uses a lot more energy to produce the same amount of "light".
if it takes say 6 older LEDs to equal one superbright of the same lumens. then you compare the current draw through all 6 in series, or parallel.
compare to the current draw through the superbright, we get more "light" for our $

I speak of light , lightly.,.. as I am currently experimenting along theories that state there is no quanity of a photon.
since a single photon can diverge, each photon can be represented as an infinite number of photons?
as well as that an electron can emit an infinite number of photons during its' existence.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 26, 2016, 11:49:09 PM
And yet the diamond needle dosnt destroy the soft vinyl record like science says it should.
How is it that the hardest substance on earth dosnt just cut straight through those smale plastic bumps in the vinyl tracks?. Over and over you can play your record's without damage from a material that cuts the hardest of steels.--?one for the books MH.

So many things that good old science has the answers for,and yet never produced. 9 times out of 10,it comes from people that are no ruled by book's. For example-the plane. We all know that it is scientifically possible ,but the science guru's never came up with the plane--powered flight. It cam from a couple of brothers that owned a bicycle shop,that said--yes we can. They were the guys that did the job through experiments,and trial and error--not from book's.
In fact,most great discoveries came from trial and error,and the science to explain it came after.
The good old bumble bee was flying long before science worked out how it could do it--this was after some decided that it was an aerodynamic impossibility-now they know better.

There are many thing's left that science and books are yet to explain,and many of those discoveries will be made by those not ruled by book's,or some one elses science and law's.
Funny thing about scientific laws MH,is that they really are not laws at all--there a !best guess! based around only what we have observed so far. These are man's law's im talking about,not those set by nature it self.

If we are to stick with the book's MH,then there is no stone left unturned. But we here,and on other forums,choose to turn over the stones that are still face down. In the next ten years,i feel that you will see first hand how obsolete your books are,and the new discoveries will once again,be made by those that follow no such rules.

Brad

These are just a bunch of tired old cliches that aren't true Brad.  The needle and the record player?  A materials scientist or a mechanical engineer could explain that to you in intimate detail.  The most basic fact is that the needle is not sharp and doesn't cut into the vinyl.  Clearly the vinyl is strong enough to sustain the typically one gram force of the needle that rides on two tiny spots of vinyl as the groove moves past.  You can look it all up in books.  The Wright brothers were science gurus and used the scientific method to successfully engineer their airplane.  They did serious research and experiments, you are grossly underestimating how they achieved their goal.  The bumblebee is just another cliche, and I think that somebody even ran the computational fluid dynamics on a supercomputer to "prove" that the bumblebee could fly.  The algorithms and the number crunching simply weren't around to do that decades ago.

Most of the laws really are laws, and they are Nature's laws.  The laws that govern how circuits work are basically the same laws of physics that people are familiar with in the physical world.  I am just talking basic stuff, not relativistic stuff.

There are also new books being written all the time about new stuff.  That's why you can go out and buy an 8-terrabyte hard drive and turn your vast collection of 6000 Blu-Rays and DVDs into files and put them on your hard drive.

Tons of new stuff will be discovered in the future, and new laws may get written and even old laws may be overthrown or tweaked.  However, when I spin up a flywheel the laws that govern/describe its operation are not ever going to change.  Same thing applies to a coil.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 27, 2016, 12:45:56 AM
Smoky1:

Quote
in one side, you can preserve the AC wave properties of the inductor.

on the other, you can simply switch digitally, and the whole circuit acts similar to a simple boost converter.

Look at the basic Joule Thief schematic again.  If it's not switching then you are suggesting that a certain value of base resistance will keep the transistor partially conducting in some kind of meta-stable oscillation.  It would be like when you lean back in your chair and you find yourself at that balance point where you don't know if you are going to fall backwards or not.  Your arms and legs start to wiggle around as you struggle in your own uncomfortable state of meta-stability hoping that you fall forward and recover equilibrium and all goes back to normal.

Look at the L1 coil.  What's going to happen?  The L1 coil is going to be "yanked down" (to ground) by a meta-stable twitching transistor with what looks like a twitching resistance to ground.  L1 is going to see what effectively looks like a meta-stable AC "yank down" superimposed on some DC "yank down."

Big deal, the L1 has one side tied to +1.5 volts and the other side of L1 is connected to a twitching transistor.  So it will respond to that stimulation like any coil will respond to some kind of signal applied to it.  It's not quite a conventional AC impedance response, it's more of a response to a meta-stable wobbling DC with another meta-stable wobbling AC superimposed on it.   Or more accurately you can say there is a DC voltage source on one side of the coil and a funky skittish meta-stable variable resistance to ground on the other side of the coil.  SO WHAT?  A crazy skittish meta-stable resistor is trying to induce current to flow through the L1 coil.  Are you expecting the parting of the Red Sea or something?

In your scenario the L2 signal that drives the base resistor is just the inverse of the skittish meta-stable voltage seen at the bottom of the L1 coil.  That is effectively the "French tickler feedback" that keeps the transistor in some kind of spastic meta-stability.

The whole "meta-stable transistor in a quivering Joule Thief like some spastic guy permanently balanced on a backward leaning chair" really means nothing.  Basic circuit analysis can explain it all.  There is no mystery to uncover, no mystique, no "hidden knowledge that 'they don't want to teach you.'"

It's just a spastic Joule Thief tweaked into a meta-stable elliptic seizure because it is being tickled that does nothing special at all.  Will the meta-stability get stable and settle down into a "resonance" oscillation frequency.  It might do that you never know.  But SO WHAT?  What's so special about a transistor that is varying at a stable oscillation frequency because of feedback to the base such that it that it effectively energizes an inductor with a regular "yank down" and when the effective resistance of the transistor "oscillates high" some of the energy in the L1 coil gets dumped into the LED to light it up?

Some current will get induced into the L1 coil, and when the spastic transistor is at a temporary high resistance, some of the current from the coil will flow through the LED and light it up.  Then the spastic transistor will start to conduct again, the LED will shut off, and more current will be induced into the coil.  The process will repeat itself over and over which will effectively pulse the LED ON and OFF at a high frequency.  Is there something profound happening here?  The answer is no.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 27, 2016, 12:55:36 AM
Quote
But let us "test" a JT circuit, with no diode.

I will just repeat what I said before:  With no diode the L1 coil will simply slam a short pulse of current through the collector-emitter junction of the transistor.  There will be a very short high-voltage pulse of current.  L1 will force current through the presumably switched-off transistor.

Now, this will presumably mess up the normal timing of the Joule Thief where there is an orderly feedback signal back to L2 during the normal discharge of L1 through the LED.  Will it still undergo a normal switching cycle when you remove the LED?  I think the switching will stop completely therefore what I said in the first paragraph is probably more academic than real.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 27, 2016, 01:44:39 AM
Smoky1:

Now I am going to play devil's advocate:

Quote
It's just a spastic Joule Thief tweaked into a meta-stable elliptic seizure because it is being tickled that does nothing special at all.  Will the meta-stability get stable and settle down into a "resonance" oscillation frequency.  It might do that you never know.  But SO WHAT?  What's so special about a transistor that is varying at a stable oscillation frequency because of feedback to the base such that it that it effectively energizes an inductor with a regular "yank down" and when the effective resistance of the transistor "oscillates high" some of the energy in the L1 coil gets dumped into the LED to light it up?

So let's assume for the sake of argument that you get better run times for the LED in this stable resonance/oscillation mode.  It's a definite possibility, you never know.

So let's go back to something I said:  The transistor briefly "oscillates down in resistance" and conducts and when that happens the LED goes off and the coil starts to energize.  Then the transistor briefly "oscillates up in resistance" and the coil dumps some energy into the LED to light it up.

So you energize the coil in "small sips" and then the coil dumps those small sips of energy into the LED through "resonance."

When you strip that down to the bare bones, it's just like a DC-to-DC converter that pulses a coil for a very short time at a fairly high frequency and then dumps that energy into an output capacitor.  I think a typical pulsing frequency is around 60 kHz and they only pulse the coil for a fraction of a time constant for the maximum efficiency (reducing i-squared-R losses.)

So just like you can buy a small very high efficiency DC-to-DC converter that switches at 60 kHz, you can buy a small very high efficiency DC-to-current converter that switches at a high frequency and the current output can be set to drive an LED.

So perhaps behind all the smoke and mirrors about a "resonant Joule Thief" the basic operating principle is essentially very similar to how a DC-to-DC converter operates.  The fundamental principle is better efficiency through very small sips of energy that are then sent to the LED.  This reduces resistive losses in the main L1 coil.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 27, 2016, 04:50:50 AM
Smoky1:

Now I am going to play devil's advocate:

So let's assume for the sake of argument that you get better run times for the LED in this stable resonance/oscillation mode.  It's a definite possibility, you never know.

So let's go back to something I said:  The transistor briefly "oscillates down in resistance" and conducts and when that happens the LED goes off and the coil starts to energize.  Then the transistor briefly "oscillates up in resistance" and the coil dumps some energy into the LED to light it up.

So you energize the coil in "small sips" and then the coil dumps those small sips of energy into the LED through "resonance."

When you strip that down to the bare bones, it's just like a DC-to-DC converter that pulses a coil for a very short time at a fairly high frequency and then dumps that energy into an output capacitor.  I think a typical pulsing frequency is around 60 kHz and they only pulse the coil for a fraction of a time constant for the maximum efficiency (reducing i-squared-R losses.)

So just like you can buy a small very high efficiency DC-to-DC converter that switches at 60 kHz, you can buy a small very high efficiency DC-to-current converter that switches at a high frequency and the current output can be set to drive an LED.

So perhaps behind all the smoke and mirrors about a "resonant Joule Thief" the basic operating principle is essentially very similar to how a DC-to-DC converter operates.  The fundamental principle is better efficiency through very small sips of energy that are then sent to the LED.  This reduces resistive losses in the main L1 coil.

MileHigh

MH:

Now you are talking.  You see, back in the "old days" us JT experimenters were told that this circuit is nothing new and does nothing unknown...or words to that effect.  My response was always something like....OK, then if this is known, why do we not see this used commercially then?  Because, at that time, members were really lighting some leds up for a very long time on a single AA battery.

Well, it was not too long after that when we began to see led garden lights that were solar powered.  Remember when those first appeared?  Of course, we could not help but take a few apart to see what was happening there and, low and behold, there was a chip that when we looked at the specs, was basically a solid state JT circuit.  Then, some companies (China, of course) began to hide this chip under a blob of gray epoxy.

Now, I am not making any claims that our researching and playing with the JT circuit led to their commercial use but, the timing was interesting in that it removed my argument I used with you expert electronics guys.

So, I began to research some chip JT's and bought about 40 of them, along with some others and, they do work quite well.  I also have a few dc to dc converters that perform well as a JT circuit.

I was corresponding with MarkE about the direction my interests had taken and he said he was working on something that was very efficient using a new chip.  Well, about 3 weeks prior to his death, he pm'd me with the info on that chip and I am going to get a few to play with.  I still have his pm saved here.

I know that you have always liked the good old 555 timer but now, as far as I can tell, we have some new technology that is better and more efficient (for this application) and will do everything we were doing in a much smaller package without winding any wire, ha ha.

So, I think it is a good idea to research what is now available and we can test these new chips.  I do not know this for a fact but, I suspect that somewhere in that silicon there is something that adjusts the base voltage as the input voltage drops.....  The tech for those garden lights is now getting a bit older but really, I have to say that for what they do, they do it very, very well.  Also, I love how the prices have dropped since their introduction.  Now, you can get an led garden light, complete with solar cell and charging circuitry and JT chip...including battery, and led, and an attractive case for less than $3.00.  It was not that long ago we were paying more than that for a single led, ha ha.

So, we shall see what happens.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 27, 2016, 07:38:51 AM
Self charging JT ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx3bpSKRuF0


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2016, 09:38:52 AM
Self charging JT ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx3bpSKRuF0


Brad

hmm,.. I wonder what would happen if you had a couple thousand of these....
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2016, 09:52:00 AM
@ Bill

the "timing" was also interesting with the LED lightbulbs, and several other places JT's are now found :)
it could make a fairly convincing argument that these did not exist before the JouleThief fad occurred.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 27, 2016, 03:02:32 PM
@ Bill

the "timing" was also interesting with the LED lightbulbs, and several other places JT's are now found :)
it could make a fairly convincing argument that these did not exist before the JouleThief fad occurred.

Blocking oscillators have been around since the 70's.
The great John Bedini was not the first to build/design a transistor switched pulse motor either--he just tried to lay claim to that.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 27, 2016, 03:54:22 PM
Self charging JT ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx3bpSKRuF0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx3bpSKRuF0)


Brad

Are you sure about that?  The signal you show is 300 millivolts peak-to-peak.  That's lower than a diode threshold.  Have you traced a rectified version of the signal to the battery if that is indeed possible?  Is it possible that your supercapacitor is self-charging?
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 27, 2016, 05:36:27 PM
Are you sure about that?  The signal you show is 300 millivolts peak-to-peak.  That's lower than a diode threshold.  Have you traced a rectified version of the signal to the battery if that is indeed possible?  Is it possible that your supercapacitor is self-charging?

Well MH,im going to say im a bit !er yea ???! on this one.
First up-and im not sure on this,or why-->the EM wave form from the radio station is all above the ) volt line-all DC,as can be seen on the scope shot below. I have dropped the 0v line by 2 divisions.
Second-i have ran it through 12+ cycles now,and it still keeps charging.
Third-i has placed a clip lead across the cap,and drained it completely. When the shorting lead is disconnected,the cap only recovers to around 12mV. But once i hook the circuit back up,it starts charging again,and will keep rising to about 220mV,and then the circuit starts to self oscillate again--and the cycle continue's.

The circuit is as below,and the scope placement that is showing the waveform on the scope.
Are AM radio waves a modulated DC wave,or are they a modulated AC wave? If the wave is DC modulated,and we have a change in amplitude(change in time),then we need no rectification,as it is already a DC wave form--an AC wave form with a DC offset?.
Other than that,im not sure. The only thing left to rectify the wave form is the transistor-some how?.


Brad

P.S
In regards to your question-have i traced a rectified version to the battery(cap in this case).
As you can see in the schematic,the scope is across the cap/coils series.
Oh,and the scope is inverted.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Nink on February 27, 2016, 07:31:48 PM
Maybe take the antenna off your electronics kit and throw the circuit in the microwave.   
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Lidmotor on February 27, 2016, 07:45:21 PM
Brad:
  This is what I have been trying to do for years with zero success.  I don't have a strong enough AM station near me.  Congratulations on doing it.  Please make sure that you are not getting any energy from the scope ground lead  A ways back a bunch of us tried to replicate Dr. Stiffler's PSEC only to find out the power came from the scope ground he had hooked up.  :(  To really convince people what you say is actually happening you will probably have to take the whole setup outside.  I hate to say that but I see it coming.  If you are getting that much energy into the system without a big/long antenna then you have stumbled onto something wonderful.  Frankly even if the energy is coming from somewhere else I would like to know about it anyway.

MH:

  I have been looking at that 'out of the box' circuit you presented and backed away from it.  Too much work and not enough fun factor for a hobby guy like me with poor test equipment.  I did try something a little different based on it though.  I built a simple flip flop circuit and drove two separate NPN transistors off that.  The NPNs pulsed two 1mH chokes with leds across them backwards to make the light.  I powered the flip flop with a 3v coin cell and the inductor circuit with AA.  I made an interesting experiment but was horribly inefficient.
  Here it is and what it looked like on the scope:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X_g52LsVnU
   
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 27, 2016, 10:26:15 PM
Brad:
  This is what I have been trying to do for years with zero success.  I don't have a strong enough AM station near me.  Congratulations on doing it.  Please make sure that you are not getting any energy from the scope ground lead  A ways back a bunch of us tried to replicate Dr. Stiffler's PSEC only to find out the power came from the scope ground he had hooked up.  :(  To really convince people what you say is actually happening you will probably have to take the whole setup outside.  I hate to say that but I see it coming.  If you are getting that much energy into the system without a big/long antenna then you have stumbled onto something wonderful.  Frankly even if the energy is coming from somewhere else I would like to know about it anyway.

MH:

  I have been looking at that 'out of the box' circuit you presented and backed away from it.  Too much work and not enough fun factor for a hobby guy like me with poor test equipment.  I did try something a little different based on it though.  I built a simple flip flop circuit and drove two separate NPN transistors off that.  The NPNs pulsed two 100 mH chokes with leds across them backwards to make the light.  I powered the flip flop with a 3v coin cell and the inductor circuit with AA.  I made an interesting experiment but was horribly inefficient.
  Here it is and what it looked like on the scope:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X_g52LsVnU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X_g52LsVnU)
 

Rusty:

Yes, that was my concern.  Maybe there is a "better way" to do this but it is beyond anything I would know how to do.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: TinselKoala on February 27, 2016, 10:32:35 PM
http://www.ktvn.com/story/31260413/13-year-old-creates-energy-harvesting-device

Watch the video.

Comments?
Quote
The harvester conducts radio waves, thermal, and static energy, and turns it into electricity.
"This wire takes energy from the air."
And the inside the coffee can,
"We turn it from AC to DC."
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 27, 2016, 10:45:36 PM
Brad:

Quote
First up-and im not sure on this,or why-->the EM wave form from the radio station is all above the ) volt line-all DC,as can be seen on the scope shot below. I have dropped the 0v line by 2 divisions.

It's quite obvious why there is a DC offset on the waveform, you should look for it.

Quote
Second-i have ran it through 12+ cycles now,and it still keeps charging.
Third-i has placed a clip lead across the cap,and drained it completely. When the shorting lead is disconnected,the cap only recovers to around 12mV. But once i hook the circuit back up,it starts charging again,and will keep rising to about 220mV,and then the circuit starts to self oscillate again--and the cycle continue's.

I am not sure that you can rule out self-charging yet.  I am not sure how it works, I read about it once but I forget.  If it is related to ionized air molecules both dropping off electrons on one terminal and picking up electrons on another terminal then perhaps you need to have the cap terminals connected to two 12-inch lengths of bare wire that run parallel to each other to facilitate the self charging.  That might emulate the amount of wire in the setup.  I am taking a guess here.

Quote
Are AM radio waves a modulated DC wave,or are they a modulated AC wave?

There is no such thing as a "DC wave."  It's an amplitude modulated AC wave and what is really cool is that you can see the amplitude modulation right on your scope waveform.  I am assuming that you are fairly close to the transmitter, perhaps less than 10 kilometers?  Just a wild guess.

Quote
In regards to your question-have i traced a rectified version to the battery(cap in this case).

That would be interesting to see.  If you replace the cap with a 100K resistor I am assuming that you will see something across the resistor.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Lidmotor on February 27, 2016, 10:46:23 PM
Bill:

  What I have learned with this 'hobby' is that you have to be very honest with yourself.   What is possible at my level of understanding and ability is perhaps not what can be done by someone else with better understanding and equipment.  In order to keep the hobby fun and interesting I can't take on projects that are over my head that may or may not work. 
  I'm sure that there will be better JT type LED drivers developed but probably not off some guy's kitchen table using a Harbor Freight multi meter.

--Rusty
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 27, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Rusty:

Quote
I have been looking at that 'out of the box' circuit you presented and backed away from it.  Too much work and not enough fun factor for a hobby guy like me with poor test equipment.  I did try something a little different based on it though.  I built a simple flip flop circuit and drove two separate NPN transistors off that.  The NPNs pulsed two 1mH chokes with leds across them backwards to make the light.  I powered the flip flop with a 3v coin cell and the inductor circuit with AA.  I made an interesting experiment but was horribly inefficient.
  Here it is and what it looked like on the scope:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X_g52LsVnU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X_g52LsVnU)

No problem.  For what it's worth, I thought of the perfect "big fat low resistance toroidal coil" to do the experiment in one's head.  Think of a surplus store big step-down transformer, a biggie the size of two fists.  It could be 120 to 12 volts or even preferably 120 to 6 volts.  The low-voltage coil would potentially make for a viable coil.  You can't forget that regular laminated transformers are the same as toroidal transformers.

Even with a big fat transformer as the big fat inductor, there are no guarantees that it would even work as a kind of "concept car."  Now, if next month commercially available high-temperature super-conducting wire becomes available, then we might really have something to talk about.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Nink on February 27, 2016, 11:27:36 PM
I like this one https://vimeo.com/57142186   
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 27, 2016, 11:30:03 PM
http://www.ktvn.com/story/31260413/13-year-old-creates-energy-harvesting-device (http://www.ktvn.com/story/31260413/13-year-old-creates-energy-harvesting-device)

Watch the video.

Comments?

Thats and impressive demo lighting those 12v led strips, of which I have 3 rolls of here.  The strips have current limiting resistors between every few leds, like say 3 for blue or white in series with a resistor.


if it is radio freq he is absorbing, looks maybe am. Or possibly 60hz?  Fm wouldnt have coils like that I think.

Thanks for posting.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 27, 2016, 11:32:48 PM
Thats and impressive demo lighting those 12v led strips, of which I have 3 rolls of here.  The strips have current limiting resistors between every few leds, like say 3 for blue or white in series with a resistor.


if it is radio freq he is absorbing, looks maybe am. Or possibly 60hz?  Fm wouldnt have coils like that I think.

Thanks for posting.

Mags
In fact, that looks like enough to power a cell phone, according to the strip around his brother there.  Might not be 2A like many newer chargers, but could charge probably slow charge one from what I know.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Nink on February 27, 2016, 11:36:12 PM
In fact, that looks like enough to power a cell phone, according to the strip around his brother there.  Might not be 2A like many newer chargers, but could charge probably slow charge one from what I know.

Mags

They did not say what was in the coffee can in addition to the rectifier.  My guess is a capacitor that was charged over an extended period of time and then discharged in order to power the LED's.  A little bit of a party trick but not exactly a lie the LED's were being powered by harvested energy.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 27, 2016, 11:48:28 PM
He should go beat up Clock Boy and then sail off in a balloon.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: gyulasun on February 28, 2016, 12:13:47 AM
Self charging JT ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx3bpSKRuF0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx3bpSKRuF0)


Brad

Hi Brad,

From your video it seems the variable capacitor is not used for tuning the main coil on the ferrite rod antenna: I think you would  pick-up more power from the AM radio station  by resonating that coil at the 963 kHz (or so) AM broadcast frequency.

Also, the direction or orientation of the ferrite rod with respect to the location of the AM transmitter also counts in the amplitude of the received signal, you surely know this.  You may wish to connect the variable capacitor in parallel with the coil and find the maximum sinewave peak to peak amplitude at 963 kHz, watching the amplitude on your scope, while turning the board with the ferrite rod on it also for maximum amplitude. Sorry if you have done this or are aware of all this,  you have not mentioned or showed these yet.

Gyula
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Nink on February 28, 2016, 12:25:14 AM
He should go beat up Clock Boy and then sail off in a balloon.
I get how the Radio Shack clock shoved in a case works but what does the spoon stuck in a tripod do ?
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 28, 2016, 12:52:20 AM
I get how the Radio Shack clock shoved in a case works but what does the spoon stuck in a tripod do ?

That is the remote detonation device reflector.  It is not on the original schematic.

Bill
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 28, 2016, 02:53:55 AM
Brad:
  This is what I have been trying to do for years with zero success.  I don't have a strong enough AM station near me.  Congratulations on doing it.  Please make sure that you are not getting any energy from the scope ground lead  A ways back a bunch of us tried to replicate Dr. Stiffler's PSEC only to find out the power came from the scope ground he had hooked up.  :(  To really convince people what you say is actually happening you will probably have to take the whole setup outside.  I hate to say that but I see it coming.  If you are getting that much energy into the system without a big/long antenna then you have stumbled onto something wonderful.  Frankly even if the energy is coming from somewhere else I would like to know about it anyway.

MH:

  I have been looking at that 'out of the box' circuit you presented and backed away from it.  Too much work and not enough fun factor for a hobby guy like me with poor test equipment.  I did try something a little different based on it though.  I built a simple flip flop circuit and drove two separate NPN transistors off that.  The NPNs pulsed two 1mH chokes with leds across them backwards to make the light.  I powered the flip flop with a 3v coin cell and the inductor circuit with AA.  I made an interesting experiment but was horribly inefficient.
  Here it is and what it looked like on the scope:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X_g52LsVnU
 

Hi Rusty.

I will look into it further for sure. I did think about the scope ground,but it is just a common ground,and i also have it hooked to the positive side of the cap,with the scope channel inverted.
That particular radio station is only about 4km away from me,and the reason it is the strongest signal in my area. That little electronics kit allows you to build a fox hole type radio receiver,and it works very well. Going to go down to my local electronics store today,and see if i can buy one of these ferrit core aerials today,and build it on a plexiglass board--just for clarity.

Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 28, 2016, 03:56:24 PM
author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg475491#msg475491 date=1456418556]

MileHigh

So show us your smart's MH--design a simple circuit that lowers the base resistance as the voltage in the battery drop's. You pride your self on bench time and knowledge,so show us some of that smarts. You draw up the circuit,and i'll spend the time and money putting it together,and testing it. I'll post the results and video's here.


Brad

Quote
You have to back up first.  Who says that you need a variable resistor for a Joule Thief?  I am not aware of that requirement.  The only thing that I am aware of is that it was done all the time in the old days of this thread, presumably without any serious circuit analysis or scope work done to see what was happening.  It was just an anecdotal observation that the LED changed in intensity when you changed the base resistance.

You are suggesting it so it suggests a question for you:  Why do you want to have a variable base resistor in a standard Joule Thief?

No response on this and I am not surprised.  This is an example of leading yourselves down a garden path.  You talk about varying the base resistor "just because" and you can't actually explain why you want to do it.

Likewise, I will predict with high confidence that nothing will come from a "resonant Joule thief."  It's another idea where you can't actually say why you want to do it.  I speculated that you might get better performance because you may be emulating how a standard DC-to-DC converter works, which means that "resonance" has absolutely nothing to do with it at all.  The silence was deafening.

There is no point in approaching electronics like this, sort of like alchemists.  You need to approach electronics like chemists.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 28, 2016, 05:24:07 PM
No response on this and I am not surprised.  This is an example of leading yourselves down a garden path.  You talk about varying the base resistor "just because" and you can't actually explain why you want to do it.

Likewise, I will predict with high confidence that nothing will come from a "resonant Joule thief."  It's another idea where you can't actually say why you want to do it.  I speculated that you might get better performance because you may be emulating how a standard DC-to-DC converter works, which means that "resonance" has absolutely nothing to do with it at all.  The silence was deafening.

There is no point in approaching electronics like this, sort of like alchemists.  You need to approach electronics like chemists.

Do you need an answer to understand the need for a variable base resistor MH?-or will your batteries simply remain at the rated voltage of 1.5 volt's?.
That was a bit of a silly statement by your self MH.

Asking why the need for resonance is also a silly question.
Try pushing a child on a swing both in and out of resonance,and see which uses more energy for less motion. Why can you jump higher on a trampoline with less effort,than you can on the ground with more effort?.

MH-are you board again?.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 28, 2016, 06:24:52 PM
Do you need an answer to understand the need for a variable base resistor MH?-or will your batteries simply remain at the rated voltage of 1.5 volt's?.
That was a bit of a silly statement by your self MH.

Asking why the need for resonance is also a silly question.
Try pushing a child on a swing both in and out of resonance,and see which uses more energy for less motion. Why can you jump higher on a trampoline with less effort,than you can on the ground with more effort?.

MH-are you board again?.


Brad

For example.  If a person of say 100lb is on a particular playground swing, and say it takes 2 seconds to swing a full 'resonant' cycle, then measure how much energy it takes to keep that cycle going.  Now try to apply input energy to make that same person on the same swing complete that same cycle in .5 seconds. It will definitely take more energy in to run that swing at .5 second cycles because there would need to be a constant control from the input, of which in my mind would be a tremendous amount of energy to accomplish compared to the input of the 'resonant' 2 second cycle.  Or even a 5 second cycle. The input would have to apply some kind of 'constant control over the course of the cycle, including 2 places in the cycle of  braking and 2 places in the cycle of pushing up from the low position, once for each direction.

It is very clear that the input energy at 2 seconds per cycle would be minimal compared to forcing a .5 second or a 5 second cycle

To repeatedly hear that operating anything at resonance has no advantages over operating everything out of resonance, sounds a bit out of fiction instead of reality.

Like how many ways can it be described.  Can an am radio pull in music from 910khz while tuned to 1200khz? How about when the radio is right next to the transmitter of the 910khz station? It takes a lot more input to do such a thing. When I was a kid with my radioshack electronics kits, if I had made an am radio with an audio amp circuit to hear it better, and tuned into a very local station, the audio was loud and clear. But even if I just put an ant on the input of the amp alone, I could hear the same radio station, but it wasnt nearly as loud as with the am tuner connected.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 28, 2016, 07:19:05 PM
Do you need an answer to understand the need for a variable base resistor MH?-or will your batteries simply remain at the rated voltage of 1.5 volt's?.
That was a bit of a silly statement by your self MH.

Asking why the need for resonance is also a silly question.
Try pushing a child on a swing both in and out of resonance,and see which uses more energy for less motion. Why can you jump higher on a trampoline with less effort,than you can on the ground with more effort?.

Brad

No, that won't cut it Brad.  Don't try to play the "It's so obvious that I don't have to explain it" game.  Right now you are the one making the silly statements.  The Joule Thief is an electronic circuit and if you are stating that you need a variable base resistor for it then you must have an explanation and one or more reasons for saying that.  I would like to hear why you need a variable base resistor.

Requesting the requirement for resonance is a perfectly sensible question.  I will remind you that nobody here can even explain how a Joule Thief operates "in resonance."  That is a fact.  At this point nobody even knows what they are talking about or can explain what it even means.  The best we have so far is that Smoky2 said "tweak the base resistor and look for a sine wave."  Seeing a sine wave doesn't necessarily mean you are in resonance.  Plus like I already said, if you are looking at high frequency signals in a circuit, they all eventually become sine waves.

The child on a swing is a failed analogy and I will cover that in my next posting.

The whole point of this is to deal with real electronics and to stop repeating cliches that don't mean anything and to stop going down garden paths and blind alleys.

I would like to hear your explanation for the Joule Thief.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 28, 2016, 07:54:06 PM
Quote
For example.  If a person of say 100lb is on a particular playground swing, and say it takes 2 seconds to swing a full 'resonant' cycle, then measure how much energy it takes to keep that cycle going.  Now try to apply input energy to make that same person on the same swing complete that same cycle in .5 seconds. It will definitely take more energy in to run that swing at .5 second cycles because there would need to be a constant control from the input, of which in my mind would be a tremendous amount of energy to accomplish compared to the input of the 'resonant' 2 second cycle.  Or even a 5 second cycle. The input would have to apply some kind of 'constant control over the course of the cycle, including 2 places in the cycle of  braking and 2 places in the cycle of pushing up from the low position, once for each direction.

It is very clear that the input energy at 2 seconds per cycle would be minimal compared to forcing a .5 second or a 5 second cycle

To repeatedly hear that operating anything at resonance has no advantages over operating everything out of resonance, sounds a bit out of fiction instead of reality.

Sure, let's take the swing as an example but let's get real about it and also talk about a real output.  Without having a real output you are just spinning your wheels and going nowhere.

For starters, resonance is simply a method for storing energy.  So you have to put energy into the resonant system, and by definition take energy out of the resonant system if you are going to accomplish something.

What you can't do is not keep your eye on the energy ball, and I don't think either of you are doing that properly.

The child is at rest on the swing.  You give him regular pushes of 20 joules.  The swinging gets higher.  The child's swing energy goes something like 20 joules, 40 joules, 60, 80... 180, and then finally there is 200 joules of energy stored in the swinging.  Energy that you put there by pushing on the child.  So far the output is zero.

Now that the child is swinging high, let's factor in the air resistance.  Let's say the child loses 5 joules per swing.  So that means you only have to push with 5 joules of energy per swing to maintain the high swinging, and the output is still zero.

So, now let's talk about an output - you have to have an output.  So let's say that next to the swing there is a hanging rope that loops down and the child is wearing a leather work glove in one hand and he grabs the rope during each down swing to slow himself down and burn off some energy.  Let's say he burns off 30 joules every time he grabs the rope.

So, you push on the child with 5 joules, and he is one the way down with 200 joules of energy in the swing.  But this time he grabs the rope and when he comes back to you on the reverse swing there is only 165 joules in the swing.  So that means that this time you can't get away with pushing with 5 joules because of "swing resonance magic," you will have to push back with 35 joules of energy to maintain the swinging.

Where is the "resonance magic" there?

When the child is swinging to output 30 joules you have to input 35 joules.

If there is no swinging and you just grab the rope and pull on it, to output 30 joules you have to input 30 joules.

Exactly the same thing will happen in an LC resonant circuit. 
The friction looses when swinging will be substituted for the i-squared-R losses in the wires.

So forget about your trampolines and your resonant frequency stuff, it means nothing.  Look at the energy and you will find nothing special.  It's just another wild goose chase down a garden path.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 28, 2016, 08:14:53 PM

 I will remind you that nobody here can even explain how a Joule Thief operates "in resonance."  That is a fact.  At this point nobody even knows what they are talking about or can explain what it even means.



Well I wouldnt say that. So far I just have not gotten up to the resonant freq of the transformers Ive tried.   That is so far.  So that deafening silence you are speaking of is not me backing off because of your statements. As I did post that I will be back on it after the weekend when I finish this car audio system.

This week Im winding several different winding configs and doing some 1 shot power disconnects of the windings, where the scope will catch and display as a single shot, then spread the ring wave across the screen so the scope will show the freq. Did this with a pulse motor coil, and it will work here. This will give me the target freq I need to get the circuit to operate.

Now that I have the scope I want to revisit multi core transformers. If we wind a primary on a core, then wind a secondary through the primary core and a secondary core, if the primary is in resonance, loading the secondary wont disturb the primary resonance. I still have a few of those projects in a box.



Mags

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 29, 2016, 06:52:31 AM
  Is it possible that your supercapacitor is self-charging?

this is always a possibility, with certain types of capacitors in certain situations.
Tantalum capacitors can be exploited in this manner.
I have not had a chance to play with these new "supercaps"
but it is indeed possible that they may under the right circumstances, display this phenomenon.
Some electrolytic capacitors are designed NOT to do this, for stability purposes.

Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 29, 2016, 01:46:53 PM






MileHigh

Quote
Sure, let's take the swing as an example but let's get real about it and also talk about a real output.  Without having a real output you are just spinning your wheels and going nowhere.For starters, resonance is simply a method for storing energy.  So you have to put energy into the resonant system, and by definition take energy out of the resonant system if you are going to accomplish something.
What you can't do is not keep your eye on the energy ball, and I don't think either of you are doing that properly.

I dont think you grasp the reasoning behind resonance. The reasoning being much the same to that of having the timing correct in an ICE engine-done for best performance.

Quote
The child is at rest on the swing.  You give him regular pushes of 20 joules.  The swinging gets higher.  The child's swing energy goes something like 20 joules, 40 joules, 60, 80... 180, and then finally there is 200 joules of energy stored in the swinging.  Energy that you put there by pushing on the child.  So far the output is zero.

Now that the child is swinging high, let's factor in the air resistance.  Let's say the child loses 5 joules per swing.  So that means you only have to push with 5 joules of energy per swing to maintain the high swinging, and the output is still zero.

So, now let's talk about an output - you have to have an output.  So let's say that next to the swing there is a hanging rope that loops down and the child is wearing a leather work glove in one hand and he grabs the rope during each down swing to slow himself down and burn off some energy.  Let's say he burns off 30 joules every time he grabs the rope.

So, you push on the child with 5 joules, and he is one the way down with 200 joules of energy in the swing.  But this time he grabs the rope and when he comes back to you on the reverse swing there is only 165 joules in the swing.  So that means that this time you can't get away with pushing with 5 joules because of "swing resonance magic," you will have to push back with 35 joules of energy to maintain the swinging.
Where is the "resonance magic" there?
When the child is swinging to output 30 joules you have to input 35 joules.
If there is no swinging and you just grab the rope and pull on it, to output 30 joules you have to input 30 joules.
Exactly the same thing will happen in an LC resonant circuit. 
The friction looses when swinging will be substituted for the i-squared-R losses in the wires.
So forget about your trampolines and your resonant frequency stuff, it means nothing.  Look at the energy and you will find nothing special.  It's just another wild goose chase down a garden path.

What has all this got to do with increasing the electrical efficiency of a JT type circuit by way of resonance?. I have not once mentioned that resonance will enable us to draw more out of such a system than we put in. You last lot of junk paragraphs seem to indicate that i was saying such a thing. There are a few types of resonance MH,and you seem to be stuck on one of them. JT switching is force MH,it is not resonant switching.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 29, 2016, 01:52:48 PM
this is always a possibility, with certain types of capacitors in certain situations.
Tantalum capacitors can be exploited in this manner.
I have not had a chance to play with these new "supercaps"
but it is indeed possible that they may under the right circumstances, display this phenomenon.
Some electrolytic capacitors are designed NOT to do this, for stability purposes.

Well if it is the cap that is some how self charging at this rate,then we had better look further into it,as the circuit has been cycling for two days now,without any meters or the scope hooked up to it-->to eliminate any chance that either may have been charging the cap. But as the cap dose not charge up with the circuit disconnected,then it's a sure thing it is not the cap that is self charging.

I connected a 10 meter length of wire as an antenna,and it made no difference at all to the charging rate???.


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 29, 2016, 03:40:24 PM
Brad:

Quote
I dont think you grasp the reasoning behind resonance. The reasoning being much the same to that of having the timing correct in an ICE engine-done for best performance.

You have got to be kidding.  For starters you are not explaining the "reasoning," you are just throwing the word around like spaghetti hoping it will stick to the wall.  It's meaningless to say "reasoning" and then not actually state any reasoning.

Adjusting the timing of an ICE has absolutely nothing to do with resonance and there is no connection at all.

Quote
What has all this got to do with increasing the electrical efficiency of a JT type circuit by way of resonance?

That is a meaningless statement based on blind belief with no substance.  You can't even define "resonance" for a Joule Thief.  If you claim that you can, then go ahead and define and explain it.  Go ahead and define and explain the alleged increased electrical efficiency.

Quote
You last lot of junk paragraphs seem to indicate that i was saying such a thing. There are a few types of resonance MH,and you seem to be stuck on one of them. JT switching is force MH,it is not resonant switching.

The paragraphs were not "junk," they clearly show that resonance has to actually mean something with respect to energy.  You can't just throw the term around without it meaning anything.  I made no reference to you whatsoever in my breakdown of a swing in resonance, it was purely a generic analysis.

Please go ahead and define the "few types of resonance" and state which "type" applies to a Joule Thief.  How and why is it beneficial?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on February 29, 2016, 04:41:34 PM
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg475892#msg475892 date=1456756824]
Brad:




MileHigh


Quote
You have got to be kidding.  For starters you are not explaining the "reasoning," you are just throwing the word around like spaghetti hoping it will stick to the wall.  It's meaningless to say "reasoning" and then not actually state any reasoning.

Not spoon feeding you any more MH.

Quote
Adjusting the timing of an ICE has absolutely nothing to do with resonance and there is no connection at all.

Bullshit-it's the very same.
If the timing is out on either,then in both cases you turn your fuel(energy)into heat,in sted of doing what it should be doing in each case.

Quote
That is a meaningless statement based on blind belief with no substance.  You can't even define "resonance" for a Joule Thief.  If you claim that you can, then go ahead and define and explain it.  Go ahead and define and explain the alleged increased electrical efficiency.

About time you did some thinking of your own MH,but that seems to be fading fast for you.

Quote
The paragraphs were not "junk," they clearly show that resonance has to actually mean something with respect to energy.  You can't just throw the term around without it meaning anything.  I made no reference to you whatsoever in my breakdown of a swing in resonance, it was purely a generic analysis.

Quote
The paragraphs were not "junk," they clearly show that resonance has to actually mean something with respect to energy.  You can't just throw the term around without it meaning anything.  I made no reference to you whatsoever in my breakdown of a swing in resonance, it was purely a generic analysis.

Like i said,you just dont get it MH.
When will the wine glass break using sound waves to break it?
Oh thats right,when the wine glass vibrates at resonance with the sound waves-->but will not break either side of said resonant frequency.
If this dose not explain the importance and increase of efficiency due to resonance MH,then your a lost cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE827gwnnk4


Brad
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 29, 2016, 06:19:48 PM
Brad:

Quote
Not spoon feeding you any more MH.

Don't even try to play a silly game like that.  You like to talk the talk with a lot of meaningless statements that are cliches but apparently you can't walk the walk.

I asked you to explain the "reasoning behind resonance," which was your statement.  So I said this:  For starters you are not explaining the "reasoning," you are just throwing the word around like spaghetti hoping it will stick to the wall.  It's meaningless to say "reasoning" and then not actually state any reasoning.

If you refuse to answer and state the "reasoning" in the "reasoning behind resonance" then you are just bluffing and have nothing to say.  This statement from you to me, "I don't think you grasp the reasoning behind resonance" with respect to a Joule Thief is complete and total BS unless you explain the reasoning.  Put up or admit that you can't back up your statement.

Quote
Bullshit-it's the very same.
If the timing is out on either,then in both cases you turn your fuel(energy)into heat,in sted of doing what it should be doing in each case.

No, an ICE doesn't resonate in any way, shape or form whatsoever.  It's not "the very same" there is no relation at all.  If you talk about proper timing, then there is more of a connection between an ICE and a Joule Thief in normal operation.  i.e.; the valves close at the right time just like the Joule Thief switches at the "right time."

Quote
About time you did some thinking of your own MH,but that seems to be fading fast for you.

That's anther poor attempt as distraction and deflection.  Another attempt to feign that I am the one that doesn't know what I an talking about instead of you backing yourself up and talking real substance about your silly claims.

I will repeat what I said:  That is a meaningless statement based on blind belief with no substance.  You can't even define "resonance" for a Joule Thief.  If you claim that you can, then go ahead and define and explain it.  Go ahead and define and explain the alleged increased electrical efficiency.

So go ahead and define "resonance for a Joule Thief."  I don't think you can at all.  Instead it's all bluster and blarney and BS.  You are back to holding your breath and turning blue.  So put up or say nothing and FAIL.

Quote
Like i said,you just dont get it MH.
When will the wine glass break using sound waves to break it?
Oh thats right,when the wine glass vibrates at resonance with the sound waves-->but will not break either side of said resonant frequency.
If this dose not explain the importance and increase of efficiency due to resonance MH,then your a lost cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE827gwnnk4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE827gwnnk4)

I get it perfectly and so far you can't say a single thing to back up your statements.  You are playing the same BS game that a typical "free energy magnet motor" guy plays.

Quote
Oh thats right,when the wine glass vibrates at resonance with the sound waves-->but will not break either side of said resonant frequency.
If this dose not explain the importance and increase of efficiency due to resonance MH,then your a lost cause.

Big deal that the wine glass breaks at the resonant frequency.  That has zero to do with a Joule Thief.  What "increased efficiency" are you talking about?  Define it please and relate it to a wine glass and a Joule Thief.  If you can't do that then your statement is more BS.  So far you are the lost cause because all you can say are meaningless cliches, nothing more than a word salad with no substance to it at all.

The wine glass in resonance has nothing to do with your meaningless statements (unless you change that) about a "Joule Thief in resonance."

Since you are playing the "MileHigh you just don't get it" game, let's see your smarts with respect to the clip.  Please Describe the resonance process in simple terms for the wine glass and describe how the resonant frequency is determined for the wine glass in a generic sense.  In other words, how and why is the wine glass resonating, and you should not talk about the external speaker at all in your discussion.  I am not interested in the external speaker at all, I am just asking you how the wine glass resonates.  If you flick your finger at a wine glass it will resonate, what is happening?

So, we will see if your talk about a "resonant Joule Thief" has any substance to it at all, or if it is all just meaningless bluff and useless cliches.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 29, 2016, 06:46:44 PM
Just because a mechanical device like an ICE or a sewing machine has all sorts of adjustments that are related to the cycle timing, it does not necessarily mean that said device "resonates."

Look, an ICE runs over a wide range of speeds does it not?  Meanwhile resonance happens at a single frequency.  When a sewing machine is sewing a seam is it resonating or is it simply sewing stitches at a certain operating frequency?  Note the sewing machine runs at variable speeds also.

The whole idea is simply wrong.
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Lidmotor on February 29, 2016, 07:58:49 PM
Well if it is the cap that is some how self charging at this rate,then we had better look further into it,as the circuit has been cycling for two days now,without any meters or the scope hooked up to it-->to eliminate any chance that either may have been charging the cap. But as the cap dose not charge up with the circuit disconnected,then it's a sure thing it is not the cap that is self charging.

I connected a 10 meter length of wire as an antenna,and it made no difference at all to the charging rate???.


Brad

Brad:
  This is really good news.  My tests with super capacitors are similar to what you said about them not rebounding after being shorted for a long period of time.  They do bounce back some but not near enough to drive a circuit. You are getting energy into that thing from somewhere.  After you disconnected all the test gear then the only way the energy can be getting into the system is through the air.  That is ambient energy coming from somewhere.  If you gather up the experiment and put it in your backyard and it doesn't recharge that is still OK by me. Something in that room then is recharging the circuit.  I hope that you have a good handle on exactly how your setup is configured so that perhaps it can be replicated.

---Rusty
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: MileHigh on February 29, 2016, 10:22:06 PM
It does not mean it MUST,, but there are resonances that an ICE uses to its advantage,, maybe you could look up volumetric efficiency and how to improve it.

Your statement and comparison to a sewing machine indicates you do not have a lot of experience with ICE's,, I do.

Most people do not even know that the stroke is not symmetrical,, nor that in high performance engines the crank to wrist can have an offset angle and that the charges have mass and pressure that creates a resonance, this is where the peak power is made,, the length of the rod is also chosen carefully.

The parts may not when viewed as independent parts,, even if they are balanced to use the motions,, but the system as a whole does,, or can.

P.S.  the next time you use a sewing machine why don't you play with the bobbin and or spool tension :)

I did not compare an ICE to a sewing machine, you are making an inference that isn't there.  It makes no sense to then say that it indicates I don't have a lot of experience with ICEs.  Nonetheless the fact is you are right, I only have a lay person's knowledge of ICEs and I don't service or repair or maintain then.  It's all moot because we are not talking about ICEs except to state that they have nothing to do with resonance.

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nor that in high performance engines the crank to wrist can have an offset angle and that the charges have mass and pressure that creates a resonance

What's resonating?  If you can't answer it, then what?

For sure you can tune hundreds of parameters for an ICE including the engine computer ROM, but it's not resonance.  Resonance really means something, it's not a word that you can just throw around.  The same thing applies to the simple Joule Thief.  The backdrop to all of this is this has been going on for years on the forums, the blind belief that all sorts of different circuits will be "more efficient" if they "resonate."  The problem is that people don't define what "efficiency" means and they don't define "resonance."  Ultimately it's a form of willful ignorance and fantasy talk.  That's what's happening with Brad right now.  He is taking it all as a given, and it's just the same old thing with the revolving door of resonance, and goes right back to an Einstein quote that I recently posted.

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intake runners and scavenge waves and all sorts of things are "tuned".

Is there anything to do with resonance in that statement?  If so, what is resonating and how is it resonating?

I think part of the problem is that people simply ignore what resonance is and really means, or, they don't even know what it really is and what it really means.  I have already gone over that many times so I won't discuss it again.   Let's see if Brad can put any substance behind his meaningless resonance buzz word talk.

Ultimately this is a simple exercise in finding the truth and learning to stop deceiving yourselves.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: Magluvin on February 29, 2016, 11:40:10 PM
Webby is correct about ICEs.  Some Ferrari( and possibly other high end cars) engines have actuators on sliding intake ports that change the length of the tubes to adjust to the rpm/freq of the engine.
Longer tubes provide better low end and shorter tubes provide better upper end.  It is called tuning. Like a radio in a sense. Tuning for a proper freq.

Mags
Title: Re: Joule Thief 101
Post by: tinman on Marc