Author Topic: Joule Thief 101 (Read 944206 times)

MileHigh · « **Reply #825 on:** March 10, 2016, 08:04:41 PM »

Wattsup:

You are welcome, and as long as you are stimulated and interested in what you are doing then I think that is a good thing. However, there is a wide gulf between the way you think and people like Poynt99, Verpies, TK, Picowatt and myself and many others think. I actually watched your recent clips and to comment on the non-technical side of things, I can see that you are a really good guy.

Also, we are just talking about the natural self-resonant frequency of the wine glass. Simple, basic stuff - no frequency sweeping.

Anyway, I am curious to see what you will eventually have to say about the wire business, but don't be surprised if I comment that it will be the "same old - same old."

MileHigh

Farmhand · « **Reply #826 on:** March 10, 2016, 08:54:17 PM »

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/resonance

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/resonance

The concept of Resonance is a quite simple. Resonance was known about well before the use of electricity, and in fact it originally applied mainly to sound, the word resonance = to resound, the word has it's origin in Latin so it's that old. The electrical application of the word is fairly recent by those terms. It applies to electrical and mechanical vibration as well as sound because the action is virtually the same.

There is nothing free in resonance. It's an addition or a series of additions which cause a kind of amplification or magnification of a vibration of some kind, basically. Neither amplification nor magnification have anything directly to do with OU.

Resonance is a means to an end, or an operating state ect. All resonant systems that I can think of, have for all intents and purposes a continuous input, and losses as one of the main outputs.

I don't think we all need to be learning the stuff of Engineers or Physicists to be experimenting, but I think it does pay to be quite skeptical of our own results and those of others until such time as there is replication or proper analysis of any "claims".

I don't think there is much about a JT that is resonant unless the HV output has a sine wave form to it some how. I've built small tuned Tesla type coils with top loads that are resonant and did produce near perfect sine waves. And with pulsed DC input and using both a feedback oscillator as well as using a fixed frequency DC primary driver with a tuning method applied to the many turns secondary. I have achieved some interesting results with various set ups but probably the more interesting results do not come close to OU, they are interesting for other reasons.

..

Farmhand · « **Reply #827 on:** March 10, 2016, 09:00:05 PM »

Quote from: webby1 on March 10, 2016, 08:22:03 PM

pre-101 again

Since by definition the resonant frequency is when the amplitude increases,,

What do you call it when the frequency increases?

I would call that a change in conditions or physical properties that alter the natural resonating frequency. ie. a reduction of Inductance or capacitance in an electrical resonant circuit due to operation. Or the heating of the glass in the case of a resonating glass.

..

tinman · « **Reply #828 on:** March 11, 2016, 12:25:45 AM »

author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg476978#msg476978 date=1457636005]

MileHigh

Quote

If your English is fine how come you say "meaning's" when you should say "meanings?"

That's it ?--that's the best you have MH ?.
If you know what i should have said,or how i should have said it,then you must of understood it-Yea?.

Quote

The joke is your "explanation" for the operation of the Cool Joule, which you avoided mentioning.

A generic answer MH,as you want in regards to your questions.
No point in talking too much to a horse,when the horse is dead.

Quote

Yes, you are going to wait for the answers. Karma is a biatch considering you brought that one onto yourself.

Sorry !God!,but i will not be waiting for you to deliver any miracles.
We will see how you end up going with your Karma soon enough-->oh,that's !bitch! by the way,not biatch.

Quote

However, you can use that as an opportunity to teach yourself instead of being spoon fed the answers.

I do teach myself MH,and that is why i do not have to be swayed by babble like yours when it comes to experimenting.

Quote

I can't resist commenting on this doozy from you:
."

I see your up to your old tricks again MH--missing the rest of the post me thinks

It is clear that you do not understand English,or you just choose to be stupid.
My complete answer--The resonant frequency of a wine glass is determined by the value of the resistance in the system as a whole,where that resistance is seen as acting against/or limiting the frequency of the oscillations of the wine glass.
This resistance could be seen as being much the same as a governor system on an ICE,where the resistance governs(limits) the rate of change in the wine glass,and where a governor in an ICE governs(Limits) the RPM of that. ICE,where the oscillations would be denoted as the motion of the pistons.
You did not think to hard about your smart ass answer either-did you MH.
Quote: You are basically saying this,"The resonant frequency of a wine glass is determined by ... the frequency of the oscillations of the wine glass

You just cant think past your own silly little ideas inside your head,as you are dead set on trying to discredit me instead of thinking about what is actually taking place with the resonating wine glass.

A question for you MH.
We have an ICE that is fitted with a governor,and this governor is set to engage at a set RPM
The piston is moving back and forth/up and down(depending on motor design) in the cylinder--this is our oscillations.
What will determine the frequency of those oscillations (our RPM)?. The answer is the governor of course.
Now,here is my question to you--> what is it that determines when the governor will activate

So have another look at your smart ass comment MH--The resonant frequency of a wine glass is determined by ... the frequency of the oscillations of the wine-->and try to see a little further than your nose.

Quote

Take note again of what I said to you: You have to teach yourself to effectively communicate a concept.

You have to read the whole paragraph,instead of doing a MH choppy choppy job on it.

MileHigh · « **Reply #829 on:** March 11, 2016, 12:59:47 AM »

Your answer about the resonant frequency is off by a country mile, and your sentence was nonsensical. It was just like saying that the mechanism of resonance in a wine glass is when you hit it at its resonant frequency and it starts to resonate. The model of the speed governor for an ICE has no relation at all with how the wine glass resonant frequency is determined.

Instead of plowing ahead like a steaming bull that's snorting fire and insisting that you are right, why not just spend some time learning about resonance? You may indeed have a "Eureka!" moment, you never know. Or someone else will answer the two questions. This is supposed to be a challenge to encourage you to learn and apply your knowledge, not an insane Mad Max battle in the desert.

P.S.: I spelt it as "biatch" intentionally.

Magluvin · « **Reply #830 on:** March 11, 2016, 02:50:40 AM »

Excellent vid on resonance. Covers the wine glass and sets in front of a speaker and does a stroboscope on the glass so you can see the glass oscillate. Very good vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9gr4w_U9Qs

Mags

Magluvin · « **Reply #831 on:** March 11, 2016, 02:55:47 AM »

In this vid, what you read when it starts is something we should keep in mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJAgrUBF4w

Mags

sorry just put in the yt link as I had forgot

Pirate88179 · « **Reply #832 on:** March 11, 2016, 03:23:15 AM »

I really enjoy Dr. Lewin's videos. I had not seen this one so, thanks.

Bill

Magluvin · « **Reply #833 on:** March 11, 2016, 04:17:11 AM »

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 11, 2016, 03:23:15 AM

I really enjoy Dr. Lewin's videos. I had not seen this one so, thanks.

Bill

Welcome. Me Either on that one. Funny, when you search the word resonance on YT, there are all these animation/anime things with some vids like that. So I refined the search and got those 2.

Gotta go home n sleep tonight. Played a little with the jt to recreate something I had seen earlier and been thinking about n take a couple scope shots to show...

When the resistor is at 33ohm, there is some good pull down of the battery with 1 shorted winding, not killin it too fast but anyway... when its at that point, the blue trace is across the battery to monitor it. When the transistor switches on, the batt is flat line with ever so slight downward trend till the transistor releases and the winding discharges into the led, led across coil not transistor. Look at the battery when the transistor is off. The batt oscillates. Its not across any coils other than through the (off) transistor. Now if the windings were somehow producing that oscillation across the batt while the coil is discharging through the led, we would most likely see that in the led (on) trace. The oscillation is 1.273mhz. So if it is the battery oscillating, then maybe that freq is what we should aim for with the rest of the circuit, or a lower multiple, etc, because if we can have 'all' components in sync, that would be what Smoky was saying that the whole shmine glass resonates.

Just thinkin.

Mags

tinman · « **Reply #834 on:** March 11, 2016, 05:53:33 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on March 11, 2016, 12:59:47 AM

Your answer about the resonant frequency is off by a country mile, and your sentence was nonsensical. It was just like saying that the mechanism of resonance in a wine glass is when you hit it at its resonant frequency and it starts to resonate. The model of the speed governor for an ICE has no relation at all with how the wine glass resonant frequency is determined.

Instead of plowing ahead like a steaming bull that's snorting fire and insisting that you are right, why not just spend some time learning about resonance? You may indeed have a "Eureka!" moment, you never know. Or someone else will answer the two questions. This is supposed to be a challenge to encourage you to learn and apply your knowledge, not an insane Mad Max battle in the desert.

P.S.: I spelt it as "biatch" intentionally.

Your continual insistance of everyone being wrong, while you have provided nothing in the way of answers, is now considered as nothing but unfounded babble.

As you offer no counter argument, that is backed up with proof, you are seen to be no better than those that also try to peddle free energy devices for self gain.

You are a phoney MH--thats all you are, and not worthy of anymore of my time.
You provide endless talk, but you never back up your own claims.

Brad.

Magluvin · « **Reply #835 on:** March 11, 2016, 06:41:31 AM »

Quote from: tinman on March 11, 2016, 05:53:33 AM

Your continual insistance of everyone being wrong, while you have provided nothing in the way of answers, is now considered as nothing but unfounded babble.

As you offer no counter argument, that is backed up with proof, you are seen to be no better than those that also try to peddle free energy devices for self gain.

You are a phoney MH--thats all you are, and not worthy of anymore of my time.
You provide endless talk, but you never back up your own claims.

Brad.

Yeah Brad. Its best to jump that ship. It aint goin nowhere.

It will always be demands that you provide to prove, but he never has to do anything of the like. And it will continue 'EXACTLY' like this for as long as you reply. look back 10 days ago. Same shit. 20 days ago. Same. It is what is was and it is what it is. Ever see the movie Boondock Saints?
"Where you goin? NO WHERE. "

Heh. found clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdP2avo-Mfg

Just spend the posts on our work n make projects.

Wiping down the bench tomorrow and work on this.

Also, that last post with the shots, I had 4 disk caps across the batt on the board I forgot of not thinking of their affect there. Without them the freq increases and less noticeable. But with the 4 disks its swinging, so Ill go with that.

Mags

hoptoad · « **Reply #836 on:** March 11, 2016, 07:00:43 AM »

Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 10, 2016, 10:08:57 AM

snip...
NOT total system resonance, which is a prerequisite for resonant electronic circuits.
For your circuit to be considered "resonant",
It must fit the wine glass analogy.
snip..

Total system resonance is not a prerequisite for resonant electronic circuits. Where on earth did you get that idea from.?

A simple am radio receiver is a compound circuit (a total system) that relies on tunable resonance in one minor portion of the total circuitry only, that is, the tunable antenna system, which resonates in 'tune' with the radio carrier frequency being 'tuned' for. The rest of the circuit need not display any resonant activities whatsoever. The rest of the compound circuit is designed to separate the amplitude variations in the carrier signal (the audio frequency signal that's superimposed on the carrier) from the carrier frequency itself (for which the antenna system has been tuned to resonate with), and then amplify the separated electrical audio frequency, before converting it to sound via the speaker.
Resonance is not required in the separation, amplification and conversion stages of the circuit.
Cheers

tinman · « **Reply #837 on:** March 11, 2016, 10:43:16 AM »

Quote from: Magluvin on March 11, 2016, 06:41:31 AM

Yeah Brad. Its best to jump that ship. It aint goin nowhere. It will always be demands that you provide to prove, but he never has to do anything of the like. And it will continue 'EXACTLY' like this for as long as you reply. look back 10 days ago. Same shit. 20 days ago. Same. It is what is was and it is what it is. Ever see the movie Boondock Saints?
"Where you goin? NO WHERE. "

Heh. found clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdP2avo-Mfg

Just spend the posts on our work n make projects.

Wiping down the bench tomorrow and work on this.

Also, that last post with the shots, I had 4 disk caps across the batt on the board I forgot of not thinking of their affect there. Without them the freq increases and less noticeable. But with the 4 disks its swinging, so Ill go with that.

Mags

Perhaps MH would like to go and argue with all these other guy's that say the very same thing i have said,in regards to !what is resonance! ,instead of doing nothing other than providing nothing.

I find it hard to believe in some one that works in such ways,and either gets many things wrong,or misses vital required information when posting in reference to making determinations.
MHs top speed of a car example is a good example of required missing information to make such a determination.
Quote: How do you determine the maximum speed of your car in simple terms?
The answer is the maximum speed of the car is determined from where the maximum horsepower that can be output by the engine is in balance with all of the air friction and various other friction forces.
Although simple,it is incomplete,and a determination of the car's top speed cannot be made from the information provided as MH has clearly stated.
You can see he has only included frictional forces,while leaving out one other force that is vital in determining the top speed of the vehicle. This missing force provides the needed information about the environment in which the car will be traveling in,and without it,the determination cannot be made.

The problem we have here is very large,and can quite easily be seen as disinformation.
This is one of the reasons many people just give up,and one of the reasons man has not progressed any further than he has today. The problem being so called guru's trying to tell you that you are wrong,and are going about things the wrong way--you do not have the correct understanding to progress any further than you have--until you listen to me. These sort of comments come from people that have nothing to show to back up there claim's.They cannot even put together a completed,self presented example of making a simple determination that works. They do not even practice the art them self. They do not even see the effects in existing system's of that they are trying to preach.

These are time waster's,and are here only to make life hard.
They are people that cannot and do not answer there own question's--and yet expect others to answer these questions within days,and to be answered in the same twisted way that the presenter of the questions wants them answered in.

Mag's
I am spending the weekend down the coast a ways,on the boat. But i have begun work on a duel core resonant circuit,and should have it finished around mid week,next week.

Time to move on,as most of us have a grasp on what resonance is,and how it can reduces losses/increase efficiency's in all manor of different systems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzHajoDf1fg

Brad

tinman · « **Reply #838 on:** March 11, 2016, 10:47:22 AM »

Quote from: hoptoad on March 11, 2016, 07:00:43 AM

Total system resonance is not a prerequisite for resonant electronic circuits. Where on earth did you get that idea from.?

A simple am radio receiver is a compound circuit (a total system) that relies on tunable resonance in one minor portion of the total circuitry only, that is, the tunable antenna system, which resonates in 'tune' with the radio carrier frequency being 'tuned' for. The rest of the circuit need not display any resonant activities whatsoever. The rest of the compound circuit is designed to separate the amplitude variations in the carrier signal (the audio frequency signal that's superimposed on the carrier) from the carrier frequency itself (for which the antenna system has been tuned to resonate with), and then amplify the separated electrical audio frequency, before converting it to sound via the speaker.
Resonance is not required in the separation, amplification and conversion stages of the circuit.
Cheers

I agree hoptoad-you will never get every component in a switched electromagnetic circuit to be in resonance.
You only need the transmitting to receiving part of the device to be in resonance.

Brad

ramset · « **Reply #839 on:** March 11, 2016, 12:27:40 PM »

TinMan
while you soakin your tootsies in the beautiful oceans that abound in your part of the world.
contemplate Total resonance in a system [ICE} a Huge standing wave, 8 HP per cubic inch normally aspirated
the standing wave coming out the tail pipe and injecting water after the tail pipe into "that " standing wave ??

it would be nice to know how much fuel is used to do this ,and as you mentioned.. how much heat is given off by the whole system [to add to energy calcs]

and How to do this in on the Bench with circuits and wire ??[as Johan hinted ...seemed cascading JT's

I actually am not certain that Robby's 50 CC 24 HP motor is doing this [water injection after the tailpipe.
nor am I understanding his cascading Jule thiefs ?

will have to Give Johan a ring on the weekend.

Have fun on the boat !

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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101 (Read 944206 times)

MileHigh

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