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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 944505 times)

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #750 on: March 09, 2016, 08:17:44 PM »
So this all about me "daring" to ask for solid explanations and data about an ICE or two-stroke engine in "resonance?"

I asked you yourself to back up those claims and you were just being a parrot, right?  You have nothing to say about that.

I am just asking for convincing proof and evidence that a gasoline engine runs more efficiently with "resonance" and I am asking for a definition of that "resonance."

I am not going to take any crap from you about that, period.  How is that straitjacket feeling?  Don't you love being trapped...

I am still waiting for you to show me where I called someone a liar for the engine discussion.

ramset

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #751 on: March 09, 2016, 08:21:03 PM »
Fine take your Marbles and go home ,we'll see you in April.
who said anything about limits to your Resonance in a ICE or combustion chamber is a BS claim ?

moving the goal posts is another thing you always point to

Bow your head...

next time look before you leap ,I hope you don't act this way on the streets ?
please limit this type of silliness  it to La La land ...


sm0ky2

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #752 on: March 09, 2016, 08:22:51 PM »
  Just my two cents for the heck of it:

I am pretty sure that if the base resonant frequency is 3 GHz, then you can only go up in frequency to get a harmonic resonant response, and that itself will be attenuated.  You can't get lower resonant responses, that doesn't make sense.

The only thing that you can do is excite the toroid with a square-wave-type signal and line up an odd harmonic in the signal with the 3 GHz base resonant frequency of the toroid in an attempt to get a "rise" out of the toroid.  However, the amount of spectral power at 3 GHz you can get from a standard bench function generator is presumably very very low.  Then on top of that, the chances of anybody having a scope that can even see 3 GHz is probably close to zero.  In other words, with such high frequencies, the toriod will look like a dead parrot no matter what.

The fundamental (no pun) point being that the toroid can only potentially resonate at harmonics above 3 GHz, nothing below 3 Ghz.

good luck

Thank you for adding your perspective.
This is basically what I am saying, but from a different point of view.
Yes, you are correct in that the torroid itself cannot resonate with the JT.
but the JT can resonate with the higher (attenuated) 3Ghz freq.

I worked the equation backwards to find those frequency nodes that would do so.

suppose we chose (from my example) the 22.872Khz node,
and chose a transistor that switched in linear mode at this freq.

the 3Ghz resonance would be the 6th (odd/half-wave) harmonic of the JT's operating frequency.
The result in magnetic amplitude during the "charging" of the ferrite, is an increase.
Not only the tiny amount gained by constructive interference of the harmonic signals.
But also, due to the changes in reluctance through the ferrite at the 3Ghz frequency.

[prepare yourself for techno-babble, if you don't like math, you can skip to the next msg.]

reluctance (R) is defined as Ampere-turns per Weber, or as Turns per Henry.
the particular definition you know and use may depend on which country you live in or
which profession you were educated to perform in.
Either way, the value is the same.

R = Magneto-motive force in Ampere-turns / Magnetic Flux in Webers

these are fancy words, what does this mean?

Flux = NI ; N is # of turns,  I is current
       or = field strength * circumference of the torroid

this is generally applied in a similar manner to Ohm's Law.
and in fact, in the copper coil, and in an abstract observation, throughout the whole of the electronic portion of the circuit, it is equivalent to Ohm's Law, at any point of observation.

the magnetic induction, however, has an inverse proportion to the electromagnetic flux.
flux, in the magnetic spectrum relates to the Weber.
Defined as Volt-Seconds, or Maxwell's.

luckily for us, Maxwell did the work of combining the magnetic flux with the electric.
I could not do that..... Maxwell should get a statue next to Lincoln....

electric flux = charge / permittivity

faradayian induction combined with Gaussian induction presents, what J.C. called a "deamon".
( I intended every bit of that pun! lol )

without boring everyone to death,
we get a 0 in the numerator in the equation for reluctance,
as it pertains to the materials property of the ferrite torroid.

What happens when you put this deamon in a box? well, if we were to hit the exact frequency,
according to Maxwell, magnetic flux increases infinitely for a finite period of time,
the collapsing field burns up and destroys our circuitry.

This is discussed in great detail by Steven Mark, and BruceTPU in much greater detail that I could relate to you in words.

Luckily for us, the rest of the JT circuit (battery, transistor,wires, LED, Cap, Etc)
represents a secondary impedance, which when we adjust for this, we are not exactly resonating with the 3Ghz, but slightly lower than. The resonant wave-form will appear, with increases in amplitude, out of phase with the actual resonance of the ferrite, causing (some small bit of)
destructive interference. Allowing us to continue operation of the circuit, at nominal values,
without excessive buildup of energies in parts of the system.

What this means for us, and our meters and scopes
is a decrease in current from the battery half-cycle, and an increase in current from the field collapse
during the other half-cycle. this reflects between the base and ground, and back into the coil the following half cycle. One could say this is the reason for less current draw through the transistor.
or by the other perspective, one could say the increase in voltage associated with the drop in current
resulted in a decrease in electric flux. Either perspectives are (partially) correct.

except in that, if we couple to this with a secondary transformer coil, the primary circuit is not affected by the draw on the ferrite's field.
The field strength, in resonance, dominates over the coil, by a great deal.

current in the primary JT coil does not increase back to its' non-resonant levels.
the secondary can then be used to power another JT-type torroid, or a load.
such as a motor, or heating element for direct power transfer measurements



MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #753 on: March 09, 2016, 08:25:27 PM »
Chet:

So you have nothing to say, you can't show me where I called someone a liar about the engine "resonance" stuff.

You lost your marbles or you never had any marbles.  You are just a groupie for the band.

MileHigh

P.S.:  You found my quote and I responded to that.  When you say to someone, "It's a bunch of BS" that's different than calling someone a liar.  Typically, the person is referencing a 3rd party claim, they are not necessarily literally making the claim themselves.  Ultimately, it doesn't matter - all that I am asking for is solid material to back up the claim.  People have a right to say "BS" without you playing the role of the Thought Police.

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #754 on: March 09, 2016, 08:31:20 PM »
Quote
Resonance in a combustion chamber is a BS claim ?

Yes it's BS until someone can show a mechanical schematic and a timing diagram and explain the process and explain exactly where the resonance is and how it improves performance.  That's a reasonable request.

If it doesn't meet the scientific and engineering definition of resonance then it doesn't count because that's what we are talking about here, real resonance and not marketing "resonance" hype or just a shop talk buzz word.

sm0ky2

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #755 on: March 09, 2016, 08:35:07 PM »
So this all about me "daring" to ask for solid explanations and data about an ICE or two-stroke engine in "resonance?"


that whole mess seems like a feat of engineering to me, and if you somehow managed to get all the parts to line up just right, im not sure you could even call it an engine anymore..

the engine itself, is always at half-wave resonance with its' driveshaft.

assuming you have no transmission, and used some kind of belt-drive, instead of gear-teeth.
at a 1:1 turning ratio, for simplicity of discussion.

the alternator, also would have to have a belt-drive that is both synchronous with the engines rotation
as well as with its' internal electric coils, which I don't even think they consider this when making alternators....

same with the cooling fan, and anything else rotating with the engine.

not to mention, EVERYTHING would have to be aligned with a timing light...
like your cam

you would basically be build a spacecraft, and im pretty sure it would rip itself apart as soon as you achieved your goal.

That is what you would have to do to obtain "total system resonance" with a two stroke engine.
like we are talking about doing with electronic circuits.

any impedance mismatch on the engines rotation will throw the entire system out of resonance.
Now, that is not to say that some engines, under some RPM values, cannot be "partially" resonant
with the rotation of the engine.

like two matched fly-wheels, transferring momentum from one part of the system to the other requires little excess energy.
can this type of thinking result in a decrease in fuel consumption, at those RPM's?
I don't see why not,. but given the examples shown thus far, I would not claim that resonance was what they were observing.


sm0ky2

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #756 on: March 09, 2016, 08:52:39 PM »
Now, if someone cam to me and wanted to explain how the 3200RPM
somehow related to tolerances in the system, and the 106.666Hz
9 million meter wavelength, or a harmonic there-of....

I might be willing to hear them out.

ramset

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #757 on: March 09, 2016, 08:59:38 PM »
MH
Your punch drunk and spewing babble.

Calling a person a BS'er  is not what ??

You have become an abomination of your own goalpost moving self !!

Triple putz tehnical foul ,
If we were playing by the old kings rules
You would be given a
Time out !!

I leave you to your new standards ,should be self evident (by your own hand) to your readers





MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #758 on: March 09, 2016, 09:06:29 PM »
Any engine is essentially a mechanism that operates synchronously for the majority of the moving parts.  It's very important to not confuse "synchronous operation" with "resonance."

For example, finding a better dwell angle and having dynamically changing valve timing (or whatever) is not "resonance" by any means - it's just an improved timing sequence for the synchronous operation.

If you have a "tuned" exhaust chamber for the expended gasses from the cylinders that gives you less back pressure and therefore more efficiency, that's still not "resonance" in the scientific and engineering sense.  One more time, it's just an improved version of a synchronous machine.

This is not my area of expertise, but if someone says that the "tuned" air intake ports and "tuned" exhaust chambers give you less air flow resistance and therefore more horsepower, that's great, but it is not resonance in the way we are meaning it on this thread and even in the regular world of engines it's not true resonance.  It's just a buzz term that the Marketing department knows sells more motorcycles or cars.

Now, on the other hand, if someone wants to explain exactly how an ICE or a two-stroke engine exhibits the property of "resonance" with a complete description, a mechanical schematic, and an annotated timing diagram I am all ears.  Even if they did show the process and explain the advantages, I am not sure it will indeed be true resonance.  Like I said, I am out of my element.  On the other hand the term "resonance" is used and abused all the time on the forums and in real life.  I refuse to take anything for granted.

The "mutual back-stroking club" when it comes to resonance and coils extracting energy from the aether, and "my circuit is an open system" and "getting electrons from the ground" is alive and well on the forums.  Sometimes you can say just about anything and you get drones nodding in approval.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #759 on: March 09, 2016, 09:07:50 PM »
MH
Your punch drunk and spewing babble.

Calling a person a BS'er  is not what ??

You have become an abomination of your own goalpost moving self !!

Triple putz tehnical foul ,
If we were playing by the old kings rules
You would be given a
Time out !!

I leave you to your new standards ,should be self evident (by your own hand) to your readers

Why don't you go be a groupie on a new thread for a while?

ramset

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #760 on: March 09, 2016, 09:54:39 PM »
Webby
actually its a much deeper issue with MH.. he is trying desperately to call Brad and Smokey posers
 frauds  BS "ers  or whatever else he can ,as well as rule resonance  a Trigger word for fraudsters and scam artists .
he claims resonance is of no unusual value beyond known practices and present applications..
Ho Hum stuff...Calls fellows BS'ers who say otherwise ..sans his nonsense ICE assumption ,and calls fellows Liars
to Boot ...

Oh I forgot he moved the goal post on all his NASTY comments and says he meant it in a friendly way [I guess??]??
yeah MH calls guys BS'ers as a compliment Now ,nothing at all to intimate a Lier or such  ::)...
how far will you move your Moral compass MH ??

he has woven a big web for his Nasty self

MH
you have set the standards by which you judge others here ,and now you are a hypocrite who wont own up to
his own Hypocrisy !

you try very hard to discredit TinMan in particular.. it seems at all costs ??

why are you doing this nonsense ...certainly not to teach him about resonance and how to manifest it
he has already shown a better understanding than yourself [ICE claim as one example]
he obviously understands acoustical resonance  [his how to tutorial ]
he plays with resonance in circuits to win Pulse motor competitions at will
and even made a very big discovery playing with resonance and magnetic... fields...

ohhhhhhhh is that what this is all about ....??

OKay then !!

The motive surfaces...

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #761 on: March 09, 2016, 09:56:31 PM »
The gases that the engine use are part of the system.

So here is a simple little starting point

http://www.brighthubengineering.com/machine-design/84316-how-intake-resonators-improve-volumetric-efficiency

I do not believe that MH is interested or willing to learn anything on the operation of an ICE and its components,, so any technical requests would be superfluous.

I think the analogy was a mistake and should just be dropped,, as well as the wine glass.

Finally, Webby you linked to a real article about using intake Helmholtz resonators to improve inlet volumetric efficiency.  That's great and it makes perfect sense and I get it.

Don't you allege that I am not  "interested or willing to learn anything on the operation of an ICE and its components."  That is a just a totally stupid thing to say when I have made repeated requests for more information.  This is where we separate the men from the boys:  I challenge you to apologize for saying that nonsensical thing when the only reason you said it was to be negative.

The wine glass is a perfect topic for discussion because it exposes who is real and who isn't.  It makes you question what you are doing and if you need to do some more learning and research before you go on the bench.

I am not going to be made out to be some kind of a "bad guy" for getting you guys to really think about what resonance really is and how it may or may not apply to a Joule Thief.  The root cause for the ridiculous hostility is because some of you come face to face with your own limitations and the need to learn something new if you are going to be more effective if you want to explore resonance in a Joule Thief.  You don't like it one bit because you feel exposed.  Demonstrate your competence with respect to resonance first, that would be a good start.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #762 on: March 09, 2016, 10:15:31 PM »
Chet:

What it all comes down to is you are in your "protective mother/groupie" roll right now and that gives you a feeling of purpose.  Heaven forbid that you act unbiased.

Brad's definition of resonance in a wine glass is "you hit it at the resonant frequency and it starts to resonate."  You might not have a problem with that in your bound condition but the real world and for any sane person with a reasonable technical background it's completely ridiculous.  They would find that "definition" laughable and better for Romper Room than a forum where people are supposed to be researching energy with oscilloscopes and mutimeters.

In all likelihood Brad will not lift a finger to try to educate himself.  Smoky2 also gave a jaw-dropping "explanation" for a resonating wine glass and if you are astute you saw how Brad has flat-out disagreed with him.  Magluvin is a mystery.

My advice to anyone that is curious about answering the two questions about the wine glass is to do some research and take a crack at answering them.  If nobody gets it the answers will be revealed later.  It's supposed to be a pop quiz and not an insane asylum.

Do you see Chet - this is a fun pop quiz that has people stymied.  Now people can take it at face value as a pop quiz and wait patiently for the answers if they don't get them, or they can stomp around like a bunch of near-crazy people pulling out their hair and spewing out tons of negativity.  All over two measly questions about a resonating wine glass?

MileHigh

ramset

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #763 on: March 09, 2016, 10:28:16 PM »
OH
so IXNaey on the ICEEYEAYResonanceeyeay

just about The Wine glass stuff Now
Sticken to the Glass.

Got it
Wink Wink...

shoulda said something about forty pages ago but OKEE DOEKEY

need any help with that goal post ??Looks heavy...

your startin to scratch up Stefan's Carpets ...

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #764 on: March 10, 2016, 12:16:33 AM »
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg476861#msg476861 date=1457556991]



MileHigh


Quote
Finally, Webby you linked to a real article about using intake Helmholtz resonators to improve inlet volumetric efficiency.  That's great and it makes perfect sense and I get it.

As i expected -you missed the very same,that was posted some time back now--along with a lot more,including video's showing the timing,and scientific explanations of said resonant features in an ICE.

Quote
Don't you allege that I am not  "interested or willing to learn anything on the operation of an ICE and its components."  That is a just a totally stupid thing to say when I have made repeated requests for more information.  This is where we separate the men from the boys:  I challenge you to apologize for saying that nonsensical thing when the only reason you said it was to be negative.

If you were interested in learning MH,you would not play your !skip post! reading game,and then say--no one has posted any of the information i requested,and there for have not presented any proof of resonance in an ICE.

Quote
The wine glass is a perfect topic for discussion because it exposes who is real and who isn't.  It makes you question what you are doing and if you need to do some more learning and research before you go on the bench.

The lesson being learned here MH,is how you miss posts,and then blame others for not presenting information to back up claims.
How inadequate you are at accounting for all factors and forces that will determine the top speed of a car.
How you love to preach,but are unable to come to terms of simple operations-like resonant featires in an ICE.
How you do not seem to know what the scientific determination of resonance is,and how it relates to different systems.
How !so far! you have been wrong with nearly everything on this thread,and yet still believe it is all us that have no idea as to what we are talking about.'

And the list go's on.

Quote
I am not going to be made out to be some kind of a "bad guy" for getting you guys to really think about what resonance really is and how it may or may not apply to a Joule Thief.  The root cause for the ridiculous hostility is because some of you come face to face with your own limitations and the need to learn something new if you are going to be more effective if you want to explore resonance in a Joule Thief.  You don't like it one bit because you feel exposed.
Quote
Demonstrate your competence with respect to resonance first
, that would be a good start.

This has to be some sort of joke.
You cant understand the simple mechanisms behind the resonant features in an ICE,to the point of saying that there is !no! resonance in an ICE.
You not only missed a vital piece of information in your !cars top speed! determination attempt,but have no idea as to what it was that you missed.
You dont even know what the correct scientific determination of resonance is,and then you have the audacity to say that !we! all need to demonstrate competence with respect to resonance.
LOL--are you serious :o