Author Topic: Joule Thief 101 (Read 944160 times)

massive · « **Reply #660 on:** March 07, 2016, 08:23:23 PM »

I had a peek at page 1 , this thread is ancient and was supposed to be 2 dozen posts long lol

MH and others should be seen as a resource , that there alone would rub a few people the wrong way

If anyone wants conventional wisdom regaurds electronics , physics etc , there are forums open to questions but once you go there youll have to explain why and how you intend to apply this knowledge
....and that is when you are going to be singled out as an example and get hammered

its important for people to have ideas out side the box , its also important to know whats in the box

these days forums are like the roman arenas , 2 goes in , 1 comes out , or is that mad max

MileHigh · « **Reply #661 on:** March 07, 2016, 08:46:05 PM »

Magluvin:

I hope your mother has a full and speedy recovery.

Threads get long no matter what, it's a fact of life. I find your argument strange, use links if you have to. But where is "Saint Brad" when you complain about the length of the thread? He is easily responsible for 50% or more when it comes to the length of the thread. I asked some simple questions about a wine glass resonating, and he has been objecting to that obsessively and eating up page after page. Instead of taking my responses at face value and then trying to figure it out for himself it's a battle. He is the root cause of the "problem."

If you know all about resonance then the wine glass questions should be a simple no-brainer.

I have made my points, but if Brad comes back and tries to force a question into his own mold, or worse, play the game of answering a question that wasn't even asked, or says something that probably three-quarters of us know is cockamamie nonsense that gives people the wrong information, then I will respond.

Good luck with the "resonant Joule Thief" and it will be great to see your results one way or the other. Starting a task and actually completing it to fruition will be a great thing.

Massive:

Thank you for your comments.

MileHigh

ramset · « **Reply #662 on:** March 07, 2016, 09:14:28 PM »

MH
Where does the shame lie in your apparent ignorance of present investigations into resonance and LENR ,does the shame lie in your ignorance or in your ability
to call such claims false and bogus because you have no Knowledge or experience ,yes it is true we could go to a physics forum and play two men enter one man leaves.. might sell a lot of tickets ...

fact is that resonance is under serious investigation as a means to an end here and elsewhere , many fellows building here have built all manner of circuits to investigate this ,here they build specifically to hunt in ferrites .Akula etc etc

most recently member chessnyt found a path to over abundant electrolysis
in water thru a circuit that senses in real time and responds appropriately to the Resonant peaks .,

Your inability to comprehend what Smokey is truly meaning
with his JT resonant proposal and design criteria are lost in your
dogma.
he is talking about building a JT circuit to pound a ferrite into oblivion[eventually... baby steps at first]
and hopefully some transmutation in the process [been claimed many times
here and elsewhere]
by using minimal input and maximum use of resonance or a harmonic of same.

My grandkids watching mythbusters could explain the concept ,and most children could too .
Things come apart at frequencies specific to their compositions or the composition of dominant elements within their matrix .

many feel that heat alone is not the best path to LENR [such as Parkhomov and others are doing]
many feel the addition of frequency to specific targets within the sample matrix would be of tremendous benefit .

here is a link that would probably benefit tremendously from such an addendum as Smokey's proposed build.
http://www.lookingforheat.com/

staying in your box of EE experience is not what we are talking about here

never was.

climb down off your cross we need the wood .

tinman · « **Reply #663 on:** March 08, 2016, 12:32:08 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on March 07, 2016, 05:11:07 PM

The question of the build of "the resonant Joule Thief" has been put aside. I suppose the only question is if Magluvin will report his results if they are negative.

MileHigh

Quote
My "negativity" is mostly a response to your negativity Brad. You are so obsessed with not being wrong or not being corrected or rewriting or challenging a question so that you are not perceived as being wrong that it is completely ridiculous. It's a dirty cat fight with you and you start it almost all the time. On top of that, sometimes there are these pregnant embarrassing moments where you say the most ridiculous nonsensical things and nobody says anything, and believe me that many people know you are putting your foot in your mouth. You are given "a pass" because you supposedly wear some kind of halo and people reading you would be too embarrassed themselves to correct you. And that's a big part of the reason that it is taking you more than six years to get through the equivalent of an Electronics 101 course. Your own peers are letting you down by not challenging your whackadoo statements or correcting and educating you. Then again, one can assume that they don't want to deal with your obsessive push-back to the point of lunacy if they are going to try to correct you. Do you get that? They don't want to deal with it and that makes you your own worst enemy.

Well now is your time to shine MH,and tell us all what,how and when resonance is. Forget the 4 to 8 weeks bullshit,let's us have it.

Quote
You talk about being "misguided," you have got to be one of the most misguided people on this forum. Your continual push-back spawns all of the negativity - poor little Brad can't be wrong - when the reality is that sometimes you are "not even wrong" or "beyond wrong."

!If! i am proven to be wrong MH,then i take it on the chin,and learn from my mistakes. But so far in this thread,i have had to correct you on a few occasions now. First up was the cool joule circuit,and how it managed to run without any inductive coupling between L1 and L2,and then your incorrect statement about there being no resonance in ICE's. Then there was your last gasp for air-trying to determine the top speed of a vehicle without all the relevant information needed to do so.

Quote
You want an example of irrational relentless push-back spawning a lot of negativity? Your battle about "something missing" in the question asking how the resonant frequency is determined for the wine glass is a classic example. It's completely ridiculous as I showed you with the example of the maximum speed for a car. You don't have to try to answer a question that wasn't even asked to twist yourself "into the clear." Some people reading are aghast that you seemingly can't process or understand a simple question that simply asks you to explain something without needing specifics. There are always questions asking people to explain the concept or the process without specifics. We do this almost every single day in our daily lives and yet you want to insist that "something is wrong with the question." The only reason you are saying that something is wrong with the question is because you can't answer it. Or, even worse, you are not capable of dealing with concepts or processes because that simple basic abstraction is beyond your capabilities.

Your question !as i have said! is all over the place.
First it's !what! determines the resonant frequency of the wine glass,and then it's !how! is the resonant frequency of the wine determined--two totally different question's--both of which i have answered correctly. Your car's top speed answer was wrong,as you missed one vital piece of information needed to calculate the top speed of the vehicle.

Quote
I am simply standing my ground this one time and I won't be demonized for that. I am not even truly interested in this stuff and it's rare that I want to talk circuits. Instead of you always getting "a pass" why not at least this one time follow this through to the end and see if you can learn something new, or even better, teach yourself something new?

Your ground you are standing on MH,is 4 to 8 weeks long.
Why is it you can demand we answer questions within day's,and yet you have the right to take weeks to answer the same questions-->your questions.

Quote
Since you talked the big talk about resonance I brought up the issue of the resonating wine glass. You and Smoky clearly have not been able to show you know what you are talking about - that's where it stands like it or not.

A big claim by some one that has submitted nothing in the way of an accurate description to there own questions.

Quote
You are going to wait for a few more weeks to see if you or Smoky will teach yourselves because that is a lot better than getting spoon fed. To be honest part of the wait is karma that you brought onto yourself as clearly evidenced earlier in this thread.

First up-you(nor anyone else) will tell me how long i have to wait for anything,no will i be told what i do and do not have to learn.
What is clear in this thread so far,is you do not have much of an idea as to where resonant systems
exist. There is also the fact that it is going to take you 4 to 8 weeks to figure out how you can get your self out of this hole you have fell in--a hole you dug your self.

Quote
Like it or not, you should respect me for being honest with you about the resonance stuff. Like it or not, you got some blunt talk about your continual obsessive push-back. Your buddies on this forum mostly give you a pass when you state the most ridiculous totally incorrect things and that just keeps you in a stupor. Sorry to be harsh, but I can see that the boys have all picked up stones and they want to hurl them at me. Shame on anyone that does that, go read "The Lottery" again and bow your heads in shame.

It has nothing to do with buddies sticking together MH,it has to do with some of the garbage you post that is very incorrect.

There have been a few examples here on this thread alone
1-there is no resonance in an ICE
2-the cool joule circuit dose not operate as i described.
3-this is how you determine the top speed of a motor vehicle--even though a large piece needed to make that determination was missing.<--Do you know what was missing from that MH?.
4- 4 to 8 weeks to deliver the !correct! answers to ones own questions.
Question 1--what determines the resonant frequency of a wine glass
Question 2--how is the resonant frequency of a wine glass determined
Question 3-- What is resonance<--the scientific meaning.

The people on this thread are making choices based on what they have seen so far MH,not on who they like the best,and so far you have made 3 incorrect determinations regarding resonance and top speed of a motor vehicle.

Brad

minnie · « **Reply #664 on:** March 08, 2016, 12:52:40 AM »

Resonance is a "mass noun" as is pollution!

MileHigh · « **Reply #665 on:** March 08, 2016, 01:19:07 AM »

Brad:

I am not going to address almost all of what you said because it has been covered before and there is no point. Then there is the "willful ignoring" of my responses to go in tandem with your willful ignorance. It's either that or you have some cognitive issues where sometimes you are told something and the information passes right through you like you weren't even there.

A couple of times in this thread you have tried to define resonance like this: (paraphrasing) "Resonance is when you hit something at its resonant frequency and it starts to resonate." That is a total fail and you clearly have some ways to go up the learning curve.

There is the only one outstanding issue for now, the two questions about the resonating wine glass:

How does a wine glass resonate, what is the mechanism?
How is the resonant frequency of a wine glass determined?

My advice to you would be for you and Smoky2 to study and try to figure out how to answer the questions. That will help you with the "resonant Joule Thief" immensely.

MileHigh

tinman · « **Reply #666 on:** March 08, 2016, 04:42:23 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on March 08, 2016, 01:19:07 AM

Brad:

I am not going to address almost all of what you said because it has been covered before and there is no point. Then there is the "willful ignoring" of my responses to go in tandem with your willful ignorance. It's either that or yo-u have some cognitive issues where sometimes you are told something and the information passes right through you like you weren't even there.

A couple of times in this thread you have tried to define resonance like this: (paraphrasing) "Resonance is when you hit something at its resonant frequency and it starts to resonate." That is a total fail and you clearly have some ways to go up the learning curve.

There is the only one outstanding issue for now, the two questions about the resonating wine glass:

How does a wine glass resonate, what is the mechanism?
How is the resonant frequency of a wine glass determined?

My advice to you would be for you and Smoky2 to study and try to figure out how to answer the questions. That will help you with the "resonant Joule Thief" immensely.

MileHigh

You have my answers to your questions-one of which you have failed to include.
The original question was-! What! determines the resonant frequency of the wine glass-noy ! How! is the resonant frequency of a wine glass determined.
You need to learn the difference between the two MH-who has the cognitive issue ?

Face it-you have no answer to your own questions that are any different than that provided by others here on this thread-which are much the same as given by me.
You have also failed on a number of occasions now to understand existing resonant systems increasing the efficiency of various systems presented to you, and backed up with facts.

So far, the only one here that has failed the resonant test is you MH.
The fact that it is going to take you 4 to 8 weeks to gather up the information needed to answer your own questions, is testimony toward youe knowledge on the subject.

Your all questions-no answers--》all talk, no action.
You have proudly shown us this in this thread.

Brad.

MileHigh · « **Reply #667 on:** March 08, 2016, 05:33:39 AM »

At this point Brad that's just a bunch of useless trash talk that we have all seen before. Open up some books and apply yourself and try to answer the questions if and when you can. Sorry, but for this resonance discussion I had to call your bluff.

MileHigh

tinman · « **Reply #668 on:** March 08, 2016, 07:00:25 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on March 08, 2016, 05:33:39 AM

At this point Brad that's just a bunch of useless trash talk that we have all seen before. Open up some books and apply yourself and try to answer the questions if and when you can. Sorry, but for this resonance discussion I had to call your bluff.

MileHigh

Mh
You have not called anyones bluff. In fact, the bluff is from you, and you were called out by others, along with myself.
You were wrong about there being no resonance going on in an ICE.
You missed vital information in regards to your determining the top speed of a car.
You have provided no answers to your own questions that would prove myself and others wrong in regards to your questions.

So not only am I calling you out on your bluff, but so far it has been proven that you have got it wrong on more than one occasion in this thread regarding resonance, and what resonance is in different systems.

You have provided no evidence what so ever that myself and others here are wrong.
These are all facts MH-there all right here on this thread. For you to deniegh them, is just proof of how delusional you really are.

The question now is-why do you continue to try and force those here to forget about things you cant explain you self?. Why the continual insistance that there is nothing special in something you know very little about?.
Why do you try and steer people away from things that have been proven to increase efficiency in systems.

Sorry MH, but you have now jumped out of the pot, and into the fire.
Cant wait to see your resulting answers to your own questions.
4 - 8 weeks to gather answers to your own questions MH--that says a lot about what you expect from others, and what you deem to be correct for your self.
Clear double standards MH, but would we expected anything less from you.

Brad

sm0ky2 · « **Reply #669 on:** March 08, 2016, 08:50:20 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on March 06, 2016, 05:34:08 AM

Brad:

The real victory would be if you and Smoky2 applied yourselves and arrived at the simple universal understanding of true resonance and answered the wine glass questions correctly and then applied that new knowledge to the so-called "resonant Joule Thief."

If you have nothing new to add then you may as well wait until next month and cede the floor to Magluvin and Smoky2.

MileHigh

well, if you would like to be specific, and explain where you think what I said was incorrect, I will be happy to explain it to you in greater detail.
so that you can understand and learn from it.

What I took your question to mean, is exactly the opposite of what everyone is showing you.
They show you how to "measure" the resonance that is occurring. Generally, by an outside mechanism.

The way I answered your questions, is the opposite of that.
i.e. - determining what the frequency "should be", given the factors involved.
When calculated, then the wine glass is set on the table, and filled to the appropriate level, with the proper density of fluid
--- this value should (in theory) be the same as measured by the various methods demonstrated by our peers.

I am not going to baby step you through the mathematics of congealed silicates, in their various chemical compositions
crystalline structure, density, grain lengths, dopants, thickness of the glass, dimensions of the resonant chamber formed by the goblet shape.
fluid mechanics of the liquid, be it oil, water, or some other medium.
Although it would be a great educational adventure for those wanting to increase their knowledge, it is a bit off-topic, and a lot of extra work just to prove a point to someone who doesn't bother to read..

you are dodging your own questions, and any proposed answer to them, with no explanation of yourself.

If my answer was NOT the answer you were looking for, perhaps you should rephrase the question,
or better yet, give us YOUR answer(s), and let us stand corrected.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and by the way - to everyone - you do NOT have to tap the wine glass at the resonant frequency to cause it to resonate.
ANY frequency will work, so be it that it is a consistent one.

you can rub your finger along the rim at different speeds
or tap it at different frequencies, stimulate with a speaker and tone generator, etc.

now, to BREAK the glass - yes, this does need to be the
"natural" resonant frequency of the glass system or a coherent (octave/multiple/divisor/interfering frequency node).
this is easier to deal with when the glass is empty - as air has very minimal effects as a medium.
consider the difference between the speed of sound in air, vs the speed of sound in a vacuum.
in an empty glass the natural resonant frequency is close to that of the resonant chamber, times a coefficient of the glass material.

apply this knowledge to the speed of sound in thick, dense fluid such as oil - and the change now has a significant value.
also, by filling the glass with a liquid, you are in effect, altering the size of the resonant chamber.

sm0ky2 · « **Reply #670 on:** March 08, 2016, 09:00:46 AM »

Quote from: MileHigh on March 05, 2016, 11:17:32 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJAgrUBF4w

Look! Resonance and quantum entanglement! The Illuminati! Building 7! Roswell! All there if you just look!

care to enlighten us on your thoughts about this?
What do you suppose is the resonant frequency of that metal plate?
and how does that pertain to the different patterns that emerge at different frequencies?

I feel like saying something here, but I think I already did about 15 pages back.....

sm0ky2 · « **Reply #671 on:** March 08, 2016, 09:14:13 AM »

Here,
get a Mile High, and learn about this guy.
Hell, i'll smoke one with ya.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Young_(scientist)

this, I think is an important topic for our entire civilization.
We KNEW this stuff 200 years ago.
yet now it seems forgotten by most.
I blame our segregated educational system.
splitting of the knowledge into job-specific categories, for monetary gain.
a dumbing down of our society on a grand level......

I would like to point out here, that a variation of Young's Modulus, is still to this day used in determining BOTH
the natural resonant frequency of the glass material
AND
the self resonant frequency of the ferrite material in a torroid (that number you get from the manufacturer)

tinman · « **Reply #672 on:** March 08, 2016, 10:40:05 AM »

author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg476619#msg476619 date=1457371820]

Quote

Resonant anything? Somebody post or link to something that is supposedly "outside the box" and is supposedly "more efficient" and let's take an honest look at it.

Are you serious MH

How about the biggest one of them all ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil
Let me guess,the Tesla coil is not !outside! the MH box-right?-->and why?,because it has been around for some time

,and a true show of how resonance makes things work so well,and without resonance,this would be nothing much at all.

Quote

Go ahead, link or post something that shows something remarkable about resonance. Anybody?

The issue of a "resonant Joule Thief" is not a "given" that you just have to "find" like some people want you to believe.

MileHigh
[/quote]

Quote

Learn about what resonance truly is as a first step at least.

Quote wikipedia: In physics, resonance is a phenomenon that occurs when a vibrating system or external force drives another system to oscillate with greater amplitude at a specific preferential frequency.

Quote physicsclassroom.com: resonance - when one object vibrating at the same natural frequency of a second object forces that second object into vibrational motion.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/reson.html --Quote:
Resonance
In sound applications, a resonant frequency is a natural frequency of vibration determined by the physical parameters of the vibrating object. This same basic idea of physically determined natural frequencies applies throughout physics in mechanics, electricity and magnetism, and even throughout the realm of modern physics. Some of the implications of resonant frequencies are:

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/A-level_Physics_(Advancing_Physics)/Resonance Quote:
Resonance occurs when an oscillating system is driven (made to oscillate from an outside source) at a frequency which is the same as its own natural frequency. All oscillating systems require some form of an elastic force and a mass e.g. a mass at the end of a spring. All oscillators have a natural frequency. If you have a mass on a spring, and give it an amplitude, it will resonate at a frequency:

We could also see resonance as a way of storing and giving back energy, by way of vibrations and/or oscillations at high efficiency's,much like in some boost converters.
As we know,once we have a resonant situation between the exhaust flow and piston movement/position in a two stroke ICE,the efficiency of that engine can greatly increase--> (simplified explanation). In the case of the ICE resonance,the energy is not being stored,but due to the resonant factor,the energy conversion is at a much higher efficiency.
Resonance is really nothing more than a vibration or oscillation of a system at it's natural frequency.

Quote

What determines the resonant frequency of a wine glass?

Both the physical and chemical makeup of the wine glass is what determines what the resonant (natural) frequency will be for that wine glass.

How is the resonant frequency determined for the wine glass.
The only true way of determining the actual resonant(natural) frequency of the wine glass,is to measure it. This !CAN! be done with a microphone and scope.

Quote

Take a look at the example of the "resonant Joule Thief." Right now it is just an idea, no more than that. It's doesn't even exist and the improved performance attributes that are almost literally claimed about it as fact are no more than hopes and wishes.

This may be the case for the MH JT circuit,but in other kinds of JT circuit's,resonance could indeed increase the efficiency of the system. My line of thought in regards to this,is by way of an electrodynamic induction system--or resonant inductive coupling if you like.
You need to stop thinking that the MH JT circuit is the only JT circuit MH. A JT circuit is a circuit that can drain (what would otherwise be wasted)the remaining energy from !almost! dead batteries.
The idea behind the resonance thing,is to do this at a greater efficiency--more light,less waste heat.

Quote

However, this thread was stating that it was taken for granted that a "resonant Joule thief" was doable and it was just a question of "finding it." At this point in time it's just a hope, and the alleged improved performance is just a hope. I am all for hope, but when it comes to electronics, rational analysis comes first and hope second.

Apparently rational analysis comes in 4 to 8 weeks

Quote

"Resonant Joule Thief?" Bring it on we are all waiting for it but wise people will be taking nothing as a given just because you have the word "resonance" in the description.

4 to 8 weeks before any of us know what resonance is
what determines the resonant frequency of a wine glass
And how we are going to determine that resonant frequency.

Quote

Moving on, we will see if the boys can master the concept of the resonating wine glass. If not, the answers will be given later.

All the answers have been provided MH--so dont worry to much about your long winded(yet to work out) resonant answers.

Quote

Then that's it, there is no point in taking it any further than that. Just don't be surprised if you never see a resonant Joule Thief and you never see anything described or linked to that shows something remarkable or outside-the-box with respect to resonance. If that's the case, then people need to ask themselves why all of this buzz about resonance? What you will see through, is the two questions about the wine glass answered.

In 4 to 8 week's.

Quote

I have put any attempts to educate or help others way back on the back back burner.

Maybe they will thank people like myself,Mag's,and smOKy for keeping you away from them MH ?

Quote

This thread is an exception and I have no problem simply walking away at the right time.

Oh-MH,,,please dont make any exceptions on our behalf

Please---feel free to walk away any time you want

--->we got this one

Brad

tinman · « **Reply #673 on:** March 08, 2016, 10:50:38 AM »

Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 08, 2016, 09:14:13 AM

Here,
get a Mile High, and learn about this guy.
Hell, i'll smoke one with ya.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Young_(scientist)

this, I think is an important topic for our entire civilization.
We KNEW this stuff 200 years ago.
yet now it seems forgotten by most.
I blame our segregated educational system.
splitting of the knowledge into job-specific categories, for monetary gain.
a dumbing down of our society on a grand level......

I would like to point out here, that a variation of Young's Modulus, is still to this day used in determining BOTH
the natural resonant frequency of the glass material
AND
the self resonant frequency of the ferrite material in a torroid (that number you get from the manufacturer)

HA-whats the chances of that

. MH will not be happy

Young's Modulus allowed, for the first time, prediction of the strain in a component subject to a known stress (and vice versa). Prior to Young's contribution, engineers were required to apply Hooke's F = kx relationship to identify the deformation (x) of a body subject to a known load (F), where the constant (k) is a function of both the geometry and material under consideration. Finding k required physical testing for any new component, as the F = kx relationship is a function of both geometry and material.

Brad

MileHigh · « **Reply #674 on:** March 08, 2016, 02:03:29 PM »

Answer these two questions in your own words:

How does a wine glass resonate, what is the mechanism?
How is the resonant frequency of a wine glass determined?

If you can't do it then you don't know what you are talking about.

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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101 (Read 944160 times)

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