Author Topic: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor (Read 235343 times)

scianto · « **Reply #300 on:** January 24, 2011, 08:25:14 PM »

Quote from: Nali2001 on January 24, 2011, 02:45:30 PM

does the latest model use solid steel instead of laminations? And did you had it laser cut or something?

All stators and rotors in these motors are made of laminations.

i_ron · « **Reply #301 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:21:37 PM »

North america seems to be a wasteland as far as chips are concerned. No stock anywhere on H bridge pre driver chips such as A4940 or MC33883....
Wait times of 23 weeks put it into the never never land. My good friend from Hungary suggested Westmark, the North American Distributor... but they have no stock... and a minimum "package" of 4 thousand pieces, LOL mind you, the price was right at only $1,61 each....

Anyway the only really important news is that I got my HIP4081 working!

Ron

i_ron · « **Reply #302 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:35:51 PM »

To make a long story short, my PP reciprocating was an interesting experiment but one that shows no promise. Only runs on 22 watts but the output is just not there.

Just for interests sake, here is a voltage current chart taken with a powered shunt and an isolated voltage monitor which is a divide by 10 amp.

Channel A is the current, channel B is voltage (negative, then positive)

edit: must check that I have my dead band right way around!

Ron

i_ron · « **Reply #303 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:18:52 PM »

yssuraxu and all

I will do this in two posts as I just lost my last post

Here is why the reciprocating PP will never work

first pic, blue trace is with the bar closed (static)

second pic is with the bar open, (static)

to be cont'

i_ron · « **Reply #304 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:26:04 PM »

Quote from: i_ron on January 31, 2011, 11:18:52 PM

yssuraxu and all

I will do this in two posts as I just lost my last post

Here is why the reciprocating PP will never work

first pic, blue trace is with the bar closed (static)

second pic is with the bar open, (static)

to be cont'

The reason for the asymmetry is the gauss probe is on the right end, not in the middle.

First pic (pp17) shows the gauss against the trigger pulse

Second pic (pp19) shows the gauss against the voltage plot taken over the coil.

A proper working model would show a square wave. This approximation of a saw tooth wave is indicative of a non working unit. The peak flux is only present for m Seconds.

Back to the drawing board

Ron

Nali2001 · « **Reply #305 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:48:03 PM »

Nice H driver you got there, ya put them 3205's to work again?

Anyway, the slow flux change isn't that caused by the too low volts? Meaning that your volt input is too low for current to start building up quick enough? There indeed is a difference in your current rise curve and magnetism curve. But perhaps the magnetism curve shape can be explained by the air gap behavior? The smaller the air gap gets the lower the reluctance gets and the easier the magnetism build up. An open air gap in such a system is a big hinder for switching the magnet. After all it kinda makes sense that the highest level of magnetism is seen at the end of the input pulse duration since (I presume) the end of the pulse input is also the moment of maximum pole alignment. All in all it seems (to me) the air gaps are too much of a 'resistance'.

yssuraxu_697 · « **Reply #306 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:58:21 PM »

Well... in past weeks, after learning electrical motor theory I started to suspect that these graphs look exactly like they look. Too bad that theoretical knowledge lagged a bit behind with this and we did not spot the dangers sooner. But please do not dismantle the unit, it still may prove useful in testing coils etc.

The problem is now very sharply if focus and thats a good thing. "Classical" coils will get us nowhere. We need something with lots of turns but very sharp current rise. Impossible? Maybe not.
Also there may be some other, more clever way to change core reluctance.
It will take totally out of the box thinking.

i_ron · « **Reply #307 on:** February 01, 2011, 12:05:43 AM »

Quote from: Nali2001 on January 31, 2011, 11:48:03 PM

Nice H driver you got there, ya put them 3205's to work again?

Anyway, the slow flux change isn't that caused by the too low volts? Meaning that your volt input is too low for current to start building up quick enough? There indeed is a difference in your current rise curve and magnetism curve. But perhaps the magnetism curve shape can be explained by the air gap behavior? The smaller the air gap gets the lower the reluctance gets and the easier the magnetism build up. An open air gap in such a system is a big hinder for switching the magnet. After all it kinda makes sense that the highest level of magnetism is seen at the end of the input pulse duration since (I presume) the end of the pulse input is also the moment of maximum pole alignment. All in all it seems (to me) the air gaps are too much of a 'resistance'.

Steven,

I think the simplest explanation is the best. The voltage has a flat top, the current has a flat top after a bit but the flux does not correlate with either.

However it matches almost to a tee the gap distance!

Higher voltage would only make it into a pulse motor. It is the switching of the flux from the magnets that allows the four times power increase of the magnets that should drive the motor. Maximum flux only takes place in the final closing moments. That is all the proof that I need, lol

Thanks for the H bridge compliment. For the future I think I will not miss the surface mount "wonder" chips but go with pdip IR2117's for the high side and TC4427's or 4422's for low side. And to simplify the logic, that is get it off board... I have an order in for some "EE-SX4088" , opto's with build in logic,
only 3 bux, worth the simplification.

http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/photo/35/ee_sx3088_4088.html

Ron

lancaIV · « **Reply #308 on:** February 01, 2011, 10:39:38 AM »

I thought about the Hilden-Brand concept and also about the Klinsing-coil.
Then I worked for a short time with Dr. Pavel Imris to realize his capacitive foil/coil invention.
The target: a very strong electro-magnet with no/low resistance alike this:
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=DE&NR=19927355A1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=20001221&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

One success with whom I worked:

http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WO&NR=2009154492A2&KC=A2&FT=D&date=20091223&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

in details:
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=WO&NR=2009154492A2&KC=A2&FT=D&date=20091223&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

a "simple machine",is it not ?

Sincerely
CdL

Kator01 · « **Reply #309 on:** February 01, 2011, 12:08:50 PM »

Hi LancaIV,

in regard to your statement :

Quote

One success with whom I worked:

i like know what frequency you used in driving this coil ?

Regards

Kator01

lancaIV · « **Reply #310 on:** February 01, 2011, 01:19:36 PM »

Hello KatorO1,
during the first demonstration ( January 2008) with my presence it was used the conventional net frequency : 50Hz !
But to controle the RPM the current has to be managed by a frequency generator,
this machine RPM - as built- goes to the 18000 rounds without controller !

Sincerely
CdL

p.s.: ......whom......= technician Jorge Ferreira/ Campos& Cardoso,Porto

The rotor/stator magnets following this principle:
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=DE&NR=20317795U1&KC=U1&FT=D&date=20040226&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

gyulasun · « **Reply #311 on:** February 02, 2011, 12:45:01 AM »

Hi,

Your zip file needs password for opening it... why I wonder

Gyula

Quote from: yssuraxu_697 on January 31, 2011, 11:58:21 PM

Well... in past weeks, after learning electrical motor theory I started to suspect that these graphs look exactly like they look. Too bad that theoretical knowledge lagged a bit behind with this and we did not spot the dangers sooner. But please do not dismantle the unit, it still may prove useful in testing coils etc.

The problem is now very sharply if focus and thats a good thing. "Classical" coils will get us nowhere. We need something with lots of turns but very sharp current rise. Impossible? Maybe not.
Also there may be some other, more clever way to change core reluctance.
It will take totally out of the box thinking.

i_ron · « **Reply #312 on:** February 02, 2011, 05:48:11 AM »

PP Problems:

In static mode the parallel path model has a magnet strength gain of nearly four.

Yet several factors work to negate this in actual practice.

Primarily, the worst offender is that the flux will only switch, with the four times advantage, when the bar is fully aligned with the main bars.

I have prepared a simple chart from actual numbers to illustrate this fact... chart one. The gauss numbers are actually unreferenced milli volt numbers but are used to indicate the trend.

That is, the smallest distance is 1/8th of an inch that the bar has covered the main bars and the gauss is very weak at "45". The bars are in each case 1 inch CR steel so when the two bars are fully aligned, meshed, TDC, what ever term you wish to apply... then the Gauss has reached its maximum at the distance covered of ! inch.

In chart 2 we see the Kg's versus distance covered. In this case, on approach the Kg's are zero but the maximum pulling force to align the bar occurs just as the bar has covered the main bars by 1/8th of an inch. When the bar reaches full alignment the pulling force is zero. I am speaking of a rotary machine here, not the reciprocating model previously mentioned. So all same as any motor, when the poles are fully aligned, then there is no further rotational force left to operate said machine, understood?

But here we see the Achilles heal of Parallel Path machines. The maximum pulling force occurs just as the poles start to align but this is the period of minimum flux strength! And when the flux strength reaches maximum, at full alignment, then the 90 degree vector driving the machine in rotation has reached zero.

Maximum flux strength (our four times gain) = zero rotational drive.

Ron

edit: as JPG's

yssuraxu_697 · « **Reply #313 on:** February 02, 2011, 12:11:07 PM »

Quote from: gyulasun on February 02, 2011, 12:45:01 AM

why I wonder

It is not a good OU thread without a bit of mystery

gyulasun · « **Reply #314 on:** February 02, 2011, 03:30:19 PM »

OlÃ¡ LancaIV,

If I understand the Imris patents you referred to and also Jorge Ferreira's patent, the principle is to use resonant LC tank circuits for motor, generator or electromagnet coils and use the reactive current of the L or C components for doing the work, is this correct?

Would like to ask if you can answer, that in the Ferreira patent when the 6mA current consumption was measured, what mechanical load was used for the rotor? This question is broader of course: what COP has been achived in practice, for a particular setup?

Obrigado,
Gyula

Quote from: lancaIV on February 01, 2011, 01:19:36 PM

Hello KatorO1,
during the first demonstration ( January 2008) with my presence it was used the conventional net frequency : 50Hz !
But to controle the RPM the current has to be managed by a frequency generator,
this machine RPM - as built- goes to the 18000 rounds without controller !

Sincerely
CdL

p.s.: ......whom......= technician Jorge Ferreira/ Campos& Cardoso,Porto

The rotor/stator magnets following this principle:
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=DE&NR=20317795U1&KC=U1&FT=D&date=20040226&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

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Author Topic: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor (Read 235343 times)

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