Author Topic: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor (Read 235363 times)

gyulasun · « **Reply #270 on:** January 15, 2011, 10:42:14 PM »

Ok Ron, of course, no problem it was an idea.

Cheers
Gyula

i_ron · « **Reply #271 on:** January 16, 2011, 12:52:24 AM »

Quote from: Nali2001 on January 14, 2011, 07:34:29 PM

Any data on input and such, little scoping?

Pre tty pic ture for yu all,

This is just over one set of co ils... (one pulse)

Ron

LOL, the spa cing is to get rid - of - all the blew crap

i_ron · « **Reply #272 on:** January 17, 2011, 06:22:59 PM »

Quote from: i_ron on January 16, 2011, 12:52:24 AM

Pre tty pic ture for yu all,

This is just over one set of co ils... (one pulse)

Ron

Here it is as a generator: first pic
Motor driven at 645 RPM (approx)
No power to coils, no power to logic

And showing the fet gate trigger as a reference: second pic
Fet not powered, logic only

Ron

i_ron · « **Reply #273 on:** January 18, 2011, 04:51:03 PM »

PROBLEMS:

The first pic shows the model running on one coil set (one side operation)

The second pic shows the clean result with a diode over the coil.

The problem arises when I run both coil sets. The one set feeds the other and vise versa, to extend the pulse with a glitch on the front to cause it to run slower with diodes than without. No matter how much I shorten up the opto shutter the pulses overlap and cause conflict.

All pics are 'over the coil', pic three, left coil set in blue, right coil set in red

It would seem that the four coil idea is not working and a single coil set with an H bridge is the "proper" way to go....?

Ron

yssuraxu_697 · « **Reply #274 on:** January 18, 2011, 06:15:59 PM »

Hi, don't 100% understand the arrangement right now. Circuit logic and coil params would help: wire, no of turns, inductance, resistance.

i_ron · « **Reply #275 on:** January 18, 2011, 08:53:01 PM »

Quote from: yssuraxu_697 on January 18, 2011, 06:15:59 PM

Hi, don't 100% understand the arrangement right now. Circuit logic and coil params would help: wire, no of turns, inductance, resistance.

There are two side by side coils on the top bar and two on the bottom.

One top and one bottom wired in series.

Reverse phase connected so each set low side driven.

But they interact detrimentally....lol

not to worry ... will go to an H bridge

Ron

scianto · « **Reply #276 on:** January 18, 2011, 09:00:43 PM »

Quote from: i_ron on January 18, 2011, 08:53:01 PM

There are two side by side coils on the top bar and two on the bottom.
One top and one bottom wired in series.
Reverse phase connected so each set low side driven.

I used this one:
http://servilo.website.pl/laboratorio/esploroj/rownolegle_strumienie/SRSM2i3_sterowanie_rys1.png
to switch the coils on PPMM
and it did not perform as good as this one:
http://servilo.website.pl/laboratorio/esploroj/rownolegle_strumienie/SRSM2i3_sterowanie_rys12.png
The second circuit gave higher overall efficiency.

i_ron · « **Reply #277 on:** January 18, 2011, 10:58:37 PM »

Quote from: scianto on January 18, 2011, 09:00:43 PM

I used this one:
http://servilo.website.pl/laboratorio/esploroj/rownolegle_strumienie/SRSM2i3_sterowanie_rys1.png
to switch the coils on PPMM
and it did not perform as good as this one:
http://servilo.website.pl/laboratorio/esploroj/rownolegle_strumienie/SRSM2i3_sterowanie_rys12.png
The second circuit gave higher overall efficiency.

Welcome scianto! good to see you posting here too.

I am still a few steps behind you on this, lol.

On your first schematic I see the two coils paralleled but driven separately on the second schematic, so not clear if we are on the same page here?

What I suspect is happening with the four coil setup is the collapsing flux is generating a potential in both pairs. The diode recirculates this spike in the pair just powered but induces an opposite polarity in the unpowered pair which causes the fet to be powered before the pulse arrives, sound good?

I had looked at the hip4081 but was nervous about the possible shoot through on power up... the MC33035 I haven't looked at yet. Trouble is all these new chips are only available in surface mount, so I am kind of partial to the old chips.

Anyway thanks for the schematics to this list. I have some of yours already from other lists. I like your work!

rgds, Ron

Nali2001 · « **Reply #278 on:** January 18, 2011, 11:22:35 PM »

Hmm I guess one coil is causing induction into the other via normal transformer action. And the diode is providing an easy current path, or a dead short 'load'.

I too had the idea not too long ago to use two coils like you do, but I dropped the idea because I expected cross feeding and them loading each other.

So I guess you will be doing a half- or full bridge next?
Problem with the half bridge is that you only get to use half the voltage your power supply puts out. Since you make a floating ground.

Other problem with these bridges is that since the polarity now is bi-polar you can not use a diode to capture the fly-back.

i_ron · « **Reply #279 on:** January 19, 2011, 12:56:57 AM »

Quote from: Nali2001 on January 18, 2011, 11:22:35 PM

Hmm I guess one coil is causing induction into the other via normal transformer action. And the diode is providing an easy current path, or a dead short 'load'.

I too had the idea not too long ago to use two coils like you do, but I dropped the idea because I expected cross feeding and them loading each other.

So I guess you will be doing a half- or full bridge next?
Problem with the half bridge is that you only get to use half the voltage your power supply puts out. Since you make a floating ground.

Other problem with these bridges is that since the polarity now is bi-polar you can not use a diode to capture the fly-back.

Steven,

You got that right, two adjacent coils can be a problem.

Looking at H bridge pre drivers and the only one available it seems is the A4940, still only in surface mount but looks like a winner. Looked at dozens of others but no stock anywhere, let alone my two favorite suppliers... Digikey and Newark.

Another bit of info for the group, I was in touch with sales at Ed Fagan and
Vimvar costs $30 a pound. a 2 foot bar of 1 1/4 inch dia weighs 9 lbs, so would cost 275 dollars, plus $25 handling, ...plus shipping......wow

Ron

http://www.edfagan.com/vim-var-core-iron-rod.php

Nali2001 · « **Reply #280 on:** January 19, 2011, 10:51:46 AM »

Mate, a good dip available full bridge driver is the HIP4081A (aka HIP4081AIP)
http://www.robotpower.com/downloads/HIP4081A-datasheet.pdf
more info about it:
http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an9405.pdf
High driving power as well.

They are a bit touchy and I have burned out like 5 already, never too clear why...
But you electronics skills is far better than mine so that should be no problem.
They don't really seem to like the flyback going to the prong places so keep an eye on that. Plus one other 'issue' with all full bridge drivers is the lower input max voltage of 15v. So 15v is as hard as you are allowed to switch the fets. But it should be alright.

Nali2001 · « **Reply #281 on:** January 19, 2011, 10:55:00 AM »

Nice Iron rod lol
But at 2.1 max Tesla is it really that much better than regular steel/silicon steel?

Nice price as well!

gyulasun · « **Reply #282 on:** January 19, 2011, 12:10:10 PM »

Hi Ron and Steven,

Does not the iron rods give eddy current losses? Once they are solid (I understand they solid and not ribbon or stripe) and not laminated and changing flux travels through them?

Ron, at Digikey here is full bridge MOSFET driver choices:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=2556427 and click on H bridge in the Configuration column and then In Stock as filters and then click on Apply Filters.
You will get a list, including the Allegro types too.

Steven, Sciento has had issues with oscillations in the output driving pulses going to the gates of the MOSFETs and the series small Ohm resistors and some low ESR decoupling capacitors may have a role in killing those unwanted ringings that may burn the driver chips. I have not used such full wave drivers so cannot advise too much. Printed circuit layout is sometimes critical for sure.

Gyula

Nali2001 · « **Reply #283 on:** January 19, 2011, 12:31:50 PM »

Quote from: gyulasun on January 19, 2011, 12:10:10 PM

Does not the iron rods give eddy current losses? Once they are solid (I understand they solid and not ribbon or stripe) and not laminated and changing flux travels through them?

Big time yes, will get hot pretty quick. But is allows for easy prototyping.

Quote from: gyulasun on January 19, 2011, 12:10:10 PM

Steven, Sciento has had issues with oscillations in the output driving pulses going to the gates of the MOSFETs and the series small Ohm resistors and some low ESR decoupling capacitors may have a role in killing those unwanted ringings that may burn the driver chips. I have not used such full wave drivers so cannot advise too much. Printed circuit layout is sometimes critical for sure.

Thanks, yes they are known to be sensitive. I always use series gate resistors and various decouple caps. I only got it more or less right with tvs diodes in the bridge.

i_ron · « **Reply #284 on:** January 20, 2011, 04:57:27 PM »

Quote from: scianto on January 18, 2011, 09:00:43 PM

I used this one:
http://servilo.website.pl/laboratorio/esploroj/rownolegle_strumienie/SRSM2i3_sterowanie_rys1.png
to switch the coils on PPMM
and it did not perform as good as this one:
http://servilo.website.pl/laboratorio/esploroj/rownolegle_strumienie/SRSM2i3_sterowanie_rys12.png
The second circuit gave higher overall efficiency.

scianto,

This is an open forum where we would love to hear about your motor and latest experiments also. Feel free to bring us uptodate.

The same message to yssuraxu and kekko, jump in, whats happening?

rgds, Ron

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