Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 21 22 23   Go Down

Author Topic: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor  (Read 235321 times)

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #255 on: January 14, 2011, 07:14:04 PM »
Quote from: i_ron on January 14, 2011, 05:47:51 AM
It works!


Hi All,

Here is the video link


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb-wvvWIecg

and a couple of jpg's, #4 is the hinge detail

Ron
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 07:35:49 PM by i_ron »
Logged

Nali2001

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #256 on: January 14, 2011, 07:34:29 PM »
Looks tha bomb as usual!
Works nice as well. Love the top extra flux guides, that's a good little extra.
I know how much work it is to build such a machine so you have my deep admiration!
Any data on input and such, little scoping?

Great work man!
BUT:
After detailed video inspection I noticed you partially trapped a mosquito...






Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #257 on: January 14, 2011, 07:54:58 PM »
Quote from: Nali2001 on January 14, 2011, 07:34:29 PM
Looks tha bomb as usual!
Works nice as well. Love the top extra flux guides, that's a good little extra.
I know how much work it is to build such a machine so you have my deep admiration!
Any data on input and such, little scoping?

Great work man!
BUT:
After detailed video inspection I noticed you partially trapped a mosquito...

Thanks Mate!

Now I can assure you no flying insects were harmed during the filming of this video!!!  LOL

The end of the bench is in direct line of fire from the lathe... and what you see there is a tiny blue chip, steel of course... and an amazing demonstration of the extent of the flux field.

Ron

Logged

gyulasun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4117
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #258 on: January 14, 2011, 08:03:29 PM »
Hi Ron,

Hats off for your device, excellent job! 

Is the current draw changing when trying to load the shaft I wonder.
Yes, seeing a scope shot on the pulses across the coils is a good idea from Steven if you also agree...  :)

Gyula
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #259 on: January 14, 2011, 08:15:10 PM »
Quote from: Nali2001 on January 14, 2011, 07:34:29 PM

Any data on input and such, little scoping?


Well as usual my "good" ideas don't always work out. I am using a A1212 hall which is a latching device that turns on with a south pole and off with a north pole. Works fine as you can see but IF i put a diode across the coil the spike will happen in the wrong pulse! (code wheel has two magnets, N, S, 180 degrees)

I have four coils, two top and two bottom (coils in series) so am just low side switching. But there needs to be a dead band in between the pulses for the spike to either aid, or be recovered, not happening.

So it is running with no diode, no recovery.

At 9 volts it is running at 277 RPM and 490 RPM at 18 volts, for a total of 100% on time. (at 2 amps?)

On a static test at 9 volts it won't pull in. At 12 volts it just pulls in, at this gap, .3 inches  (7.7 mm) which is more that mac and keko's I think, hence the extra flux guide on top. But it runs at 9 volts because of the flywheel.

So I guess I need to go back to opto switching for control over pulse length

Ron
Logged

gyulasun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4117
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #260 on: January 14, 2011, 10:04:53 PM »
Hi Ron,

I have to think this over tomorrow but is it really needed to keep any 2 coils ON for at least half a revolution?   I have to finish now,  and I understand you have the latching type Hall sensor. The parallel diode may work differently with another Hall sensor (not a latching one).

Gyula
Logged

kekko.alkemi

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #261 on: January 15, 2011, 12:08:23 AM »
Quote from: yssuraxu_697 on January 05, 2011, 11:59:23 PM
Hi, glad you joined us :)

I have a question:

Have you any idea what is force amplification factor in your motor?
I mean what is the torque with magnets versus torque without magnets.
It still works without magnets, yes?

This is VERY important, if you have not tested it maybe you could try it in simulator, as I understand you have proper simulation of your motor.

Thanks in advance!

Hello, the amplification factor in our engine is 1:4 as regards the torque in the static regime, but in dynamic regime the efficiency does not exceed 99%.
Remove the magnets to the motor that stops and does not work.
Greetings Francesco.
Logged

yssuraxu_697

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #262 on: January 15, 2011, 12:13:31 AM »
Wow, superb work!  :o

In terms of efficency I see 2 clear problems (not counting controller):

Freedom of movement may be a bit too large (but on the other hand mechanical losses are less this way).

But the real bugger is the amount of neo magnets - I suspect that core may be saturated. Scienculo downgraded magnets 2 times. From big neos to small ones, and after that to ceramics - and only then he made a hint about OU.
In your case you could remove some middle ones and leave airgap, just to see how it effects the system and if it affects it in the good way replace as many as possible with steel spacers.

At least thats the theory, but I tend to do my homework well so...

But for metal work of this class I have no tools or skills :) Respect!
Logged

kekko.alkemi

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #263 on: January 15, 2011, 12:16:17 AM »
Congratulations for your engine! What do you Used in the electronic, mosfet or IGBT?

Are you able to calculate the performance of your engine, torque and RPM?
Logged

yssuraxu_697

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #264 on: January 15, 2011, 12:36:11 AM »
Quote from: kekko.alkemi on January 15, 2011, 12:08:23 AM
but in dynamic regime the efficiency does not exceed 99%.

Hi, does that 99% stand like some "magic wall" or you think that it can be crossed with better materials, windings, smaller airgap etc improvements? In general (with other type motors) people report huge improvements when switching to modern core materials etc.

Could you post the FEMM file of your motor for others to investigate? I have some ideas what may be the fundamental problem. Would be interesting to experiment with model of the real motor.

I think with joint effort 100% can be crossed. It is purely an engineering problem, not theoretical impossibilty.

Edit: Actually if you have 99% mechanical output then 100% of total output is far behind, if you count in Joule heating and other losses.
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #265 on: January 15, 2011, 12:39:04 AM »
Quote from: yssuraxu_697 on January 15, 2011, 12:13:31 AM

In your case you could remove some middle ones and leave airgap, just to see how it effects the system and if it affects it in the good way replace as many as possible with steel spacers.


Thank you!  Not as neat as some builders on this list, just a fling together to test the theory.

Gyula is always on to me also to use less neo's, lol but I wanted a 1 inch gap between top and bottom bars...once I get it working I will do some tests. Rule of thumb I was going by is the bar should be 1.5 or more times bigger in cross section so 1 inch round magnets are only .78 sq inches versus 1 sq inch for the bar.

Ron

Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #266 on: January 15, 2011, 12:43:02 AM »
Quote from: kekko.alkemi on January 15, 2011, 12:16:17 AM
Congratulations for your engine! What do you Used in the electronic, mosfet or IGBT?

Are you able to calculate the performance of your engine, torque and RPM?

Thank you too!  I am using mosfets.

No calculations at this time, as this was just to show that it runs and it still needs some serious work.

Ron

My apologies for spelling kekko with only one K on Youtube,  nevertheless, glad to have your presence here on this list.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 01:09:12 AM by i_ron »
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #267 on: January 15, 2011, 01:06:04 AM »
Quote from: gyulasun on January 14, 2011, 10:04:53 PM
Hi Ron,

I have to think this over tomorrow but is it really needed to keep any 2 coils ON for at least half a revolution?   I have to finish now,  and I understand you have the latching type Hall sensor. The parallel diode may work differently with another Hall sensor (not a latching one).

Gyula

Gyula,

I think it is the nature of the beast... it won't switch to the open end until most of the bar is in alignment.  Also when one has maximum gap it won't pull in on a lower voltage.

So in theory one could switch at a higher voltage and reduce said voltage as the bar comes into alignment.

This is common practice in solenoid drivers such as the DRV101 or one I would like to try, the FDMS2380. This not only goes into PWM after an initial
full volt on period but handles recycling of the multi back spike completely, wow!

http://www.datasheetdir.com/FDMS2380+Power-Drivers

But it needs a controller to run it, lol

Arduino challenged,  Ron

Logged

gyulasun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4117
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #268 on: January 15, 2011, 06:45:49 PM »
Quote from: i_ron on January 15, 2011, 01:06:04 AM
...
 it won't switch to the open end until most of the bar is in alignment.  Also when one has maximum gap it won't pull in on a lower voltage.

So in theory one could switch at a higher voltage and reduce said voltage as the bar comes into alignment.

This is common practice in solenoid drivers such as the DRV101 or one I would like to try, the FDMS2380. This not only goes into PWM after an initial
full volt on period but handles recycling of the multi back spike completely, wow!

http://www.datasheetdir.com/FDMS2380+Power-Drivers

But it needs a controller to run it, lol

Arduino challenged,  Ron

Hi Ron,

I see, thanks for explanation.  Would like to suggest using 2-2 coil pairs that could be positioned on BOTH sides of the bars, see my edited picture (coils at the other side is not shown of course), orange circles symbolize air core or ferromagnetic cored coils. One coil pair is on the left (one member of it is behind the bar, not shown), the other coil par is on the right (one member of it is not shown either). The coil pairs could be connected in parallel by themselves (like in Garry Stanley motor) any any one of such coil pairs are connected in series (or in parallel) with the appropiate main coils you presently use. When you have to fire one main coil as needed, the appropiate coil pair on that side (between which a bar moves in) could be also energized, this way help attracting the bar towards the closing position. The same happens in the next phase to the other coil pair when the other main coil is fired as needed.
So any two of these side coils could help to draw inwards the bars when needed, by using them surely helps reduce the input voltage amplitude, hence input power requirement.
And perhaps even further input reduction could be had beyond that by the solenoid drivers you have referred to.

Gyula
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #269 on: January 15, 2011, 09:40:57 PM »
Quote from: gyulasun on January 15, 2011, 06:45:49 PM
Hi Ron,

I see, thanks for explanation.  Would like to suggest using 2-2 coil pairs that could be positioned on BOTH sides of the bars, see my edited picture (coils at the other side is not shown of course), orange circles symbolize air core or ferromagnetic cored coils. One coil pair is on the left (one member of it is behind the bar, not shown), the other coil par is on the right (one member of it is not shown either). The coil pairs could be connected in parallel by themselves (like in Garry Stanley motor) any any one of such coil pairs are connected in series (or in parallel) with the appropiate main coils you presently use. When you have to fire one main coil as needed, the appropiate coil pair on that side (between which a bar moves in) could be also energized, this way help attracting the bar towards the closing position. The same happens in the next phase to the other coil pair when the other main coil is fired as needed.
So any two of these side coils could help to draw inwards the bars when needed, by using them surely helps reduce the input voltage amplitude, hence input power requirement.
And perhaps even further input reduction could be had beyond that by the solenoid drivers you have referred to.

Gyula

Interesting concept Gyula, but not sure that the level of complexity and resulting gain would warrant the effort?  I will keep this in mind but there are several things I wish to try first, OK?

rgds, Ron


Logged
Pages: 1 ... 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 21 22 23   Go Up
« previous next »