Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 63 64 65 66 67 [68] 69 70 71 72 73 ... 304   Go Down

Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 2231710 times)

Nabo00o

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 310
    • Naboo's homepage
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1005 on: May 24, 2009, 03:44:12 PM »
@Hans

Well he says its in hammer mode, so I guess its hammering the wood we see in the picture, and in that case he is doing REAL work. There is no simple reflection of energy that will happen here when gravity also continues to pull down the hammer, it will loose most of its energy before the next pull of the pendulum forces it up again.

Btw Hans I've haven't heard you reply about the acoustics yet, does that mean that I won  ;D ;D ;D  Just kidding!
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1006 on: May 24, 2009, 05:06:07 PM »
Quote from: Nabo00o on May 24, 2009, 03:44:12 PM

Well he says its in hammer mode, so I guess its hammering the wood we see in the picture,

If you read the report I do state that I did not let the hammer strike the anvil. The simple reason being that a 'binocular' load cell is two parallel arms similar to a tuning fork. In letting it strike puts the load cell into a resonance that destroys the readability of the reading. But I did have it in hammer mode
before and after that reading. The wood is merely a guide to stop the hammer from swinging sideways. The center bolt goes all the way through and strikes the metal plate below.

See the graph below and you can see the difficulty of extracting any meaning in strike mode. Nevertheless, the hammer is doing work whether it hits something or not, it is the displacement of mass over distance.

Ron

PS: one of those days... I had inadvertently triggered the pendulum at the wrong moment and overloaded the the red load cell thus it is reading plus 2.5 volts or so... the saved graph didn't print all the way to the bottom ... and it was the only one I had saved...plus the realization this wasn't going to work unless I went to low pass filtering on the sensor amps...




« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 08:34:13 PM by i_ron »
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1007 on: May 24, 2009, 05:33:14 PM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 24, 2009, 05:23:25 AM

Besides, it is not true that I did not read Ron's report.

Hans von Lieven

Oh, so you read the report, then made up a lie…

“My guess is it was done with a spring scale, in which case most of the energy would have been fed back into the system.”

Do you not think that this will lower your credibility to zero?

Ron
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1008 on: May 24, 2009, 05:43:27 PM »
Quote from: fritz on May 24, 2009, 03:38:08 PM
snip
Because the thing is charged up with kinetic energy - the peak power released can be a multiple of the input power or even infinite until the kinetic energy stored is consumed.

so what ?

fritz,

Because this leads to an understanding of the forces, "where they were", "when they first knew" etc, and how best to lead them out... to at some point do useful work. Put your thinking cap on and tell us how best to achieve this.

Ron

I would like to offer an explanation for my paper. In looking at Veljko's hammer models and in particular Raymond Head's video we see the hand providing an input while the output lifts a weight. The question in my mind was what was the relationship between these two forces? 

Thus my experimint was setup to compare these two working forces and give some idea of the relationship (ratio). I believe this is clearly stated in my paper. It is not a demonstration of a working practical machine as some have erroneously concluded. It is a research machine, pure and simple.

The answer?  "4.6:1",

for every "1 unit" from the hand, the machine provides "4.6 units" out. (on the Mk 5.3 specifically)



« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 10:10:33 PM by i_ron »
Logged

hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1009 on: May 24, 2009, 09:49:58 PM »
Quote from: i_ron on May 24, 2009, 05:33:14 PM
Oh, so you read the report, then made up a lie…

“My guess is it was done with a spring scale, in which case most of the energy would have been fed back into the system.”

Do you not think that this will lower your credibility to zero?

Ron

No, I didn't lie. Having not dismantled your probes I can only guess how they are constructed. Logic dictates that when the probe measures the forces it has to generate some sort of opposing force in reaction to make measurement possible. The most likely scenario is that some spring mechanism inside re-sets the probe when the forces fluctuate. This spring, like it or not, stores energy that is fed back into the system as the spring relaxes.

This is what I have been talking about all along.

Hans von Lieven


Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1010 on: May 25, 2009, 12:19:50 AM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 24, 2009, 09:49:58 PM
No, I didn't lie. Having not dismantled your probes I can only guess how they are constructed. Logic dictates that when the probe measures the forces it has to generate some sort of opposing force in reaction to make measurement possible. The most likely scenario is that some spring mechanism inside re-sets the probe when the forces fluctuate. This spring, like it or not, stores energy that is fed back into the system as the spring relaxes.

This is what I have been talking about all along.

Hans von Lieven

Holy sh*t Hans, I hadn't thought of that. The load cell under a 100 pound load deflects .019 inches (,5 mm) so for the 40 pound load it must deflect .0076 thou, wow all the energy stored in this tiny space, hard to believe, wonder if I could patent this?
The "Ron Pugh battery" sounds great! Thanks mon...

Ron

Edit: Oh dear, I just realized I was using the same type of load cell on the input so the 12 pound input reading was just being absorbed in the cell and my actual reading would be lucky to reach 1 or 2 pounds... gosh, some days I just can't win... :'(


Logged

hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1011 on: May 25, 2009, 12:34:30 AM »
The strain guage MUST absorb the energy in order to measure it. The degree of deflection is immaterial as long as it can be measured.

Hans von Lieven
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1012 on: May 25, 2009, 04:19:34 AM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 25, 2009, 12:34:30 AM
The strain guage MUST absorb the energy in order to measure it. The degree of deflection is immaterial as long as it can be measured.

Hans von Lieven

A totally bizarre statement. I can find nothing in the literature to support such a a hypothesis ....? only this...

Quote, "Strain gauge load cells and force transducers are available suitable for nominal loads from 5 G or 0.05 N up to 1000 tonnes or 10 MN. They are suitable for measuring both static and dynamic tension and compression forces to a high degree of accuracy"

Ron

Basic research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing.
 
    Wernher von Braun

I have learned to use the word 'impossible' with the greatest caution.
   
    Wernher von Braun
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1013 on: May 29, 2009, 11:08:51 PM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 21, 2009, 12:51:46 AM
OK Ron,

Here is the suggested comparison test. The diagram is self explanatory. The small motor provides the oscillations. Since the system is in balance the input energy is very small. Compare that to the load cell measurements and you will see what I mean.

Prove me wrong, I hope you do. I am not averse to eating crow if it advances our understanding of science.

Hans von Lieven

I did a partial test, as you had suggested. I just measured the input to the beam. The beam was in balance, the pendulum restricted to the down position.

The motor draws 18.928 watts unloaded and 25.894 watts operating the beam, thus say 7 watts to run the beam.

This is midway between the numbers I posted for the pendulum draw when running the beam. As I have stated that the solen oid drive is less than 30% efficient, the results are no surprise to me.

I will let my previous numbers stand for the load cell measurements between the arm and the hammer.

What this experi ment might suggest is that the balance beam acts as a force multiplier.

Ron

Logged

hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1014 on: May 29, 2009, 11:32:59 PM »
Quote from: i_ron on May 25, 2009, 04:19:34 AM
A totally bizarre statement. I can find nothing in the literature to support such a a hypothesis ....? only this...

Quote, "Strain gauge load cells and force transducers are available suitable for nominal loads from 5 G or 0.05 N up to 1000 tonnes or 10 MN. They are suitable for measuring both static and dynamic tension and compression forces to a high degree of accuracy"

Ron


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A strain gauge (alternatively: strain gage) is a device used to measure the strain of an object. Invented by Edward E. Simmons and Arthur C. Ruge in 1938, the most common type of strain gauge consists of an insulating flexible backing which supports a metallic foil pattern. The gauge is attached to the object by a suitable adhesive, such as cyanoacrylate.

As the object is deformed, the foil is deformed, causing its electrical resistance to change. This resistance change, usually measured using a Wheatstone bridge, is related to the strain by the quantity known as the gauge factor.

This deformation stores the energy applied and acts like a spring. This energy has to be released somehow for the guage to be able to reset. In your setup this energy is fed back into the system and therefore cannot be considered output or work done.

Hans von Lieven
Logged

fritz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1015 on: May 29, 2009, 11:58:57 PM »
In the end the existence of female joggers proves that coupled oscillations are not OU - and no work is performed on movement of oscillating mass.
Otherwise it would hurt like hell.  ;D ;D ;D
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1016 on: May 30, 2009, 07:30:16 PM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 29, 2009, 11:32:59 PM
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A strain gauge (alternatively: strain gage) is a device used to measure the strain of an object. Invented by Edward E. Simmons and Arthur C. Ruge in 1938, the most common type of strain gauge consists of an insulating flexible backing which supports a metallic foil pattern. The gauge is attached to the object by a suitable adhesive, such as cyanoacrylate.

As the object is deformed, the foil is deformed, causing its electrical resistance to change. This resistance change, usually measured using a Wheatstone bridge, is related to the strain by the quantity known as the gauge factor.

This deformation stores the energy applied and acts like a spring. This energy has to be released somehow for the guage to be able to reset. In your setup this energy is fed back into the system and therefore cannot be considered output or work done.

Hans von Lieven

Hans,

I am well aware how strain gauges operate. But you know very well that ‘work done’ is the displacement of a mass. That is, the mass/weight has to be displaced over a distance.

The distance that the mass is displaced in a strain gauge load cell is a minute distance, therefore little or no work can be said to have been done in the gauge. The idea that the gauge absorbs and then releases all the work, as observed in the experiment, and thus negates the experiment, is absurd. Further, the strain gauge load cell is calibrated before use to eliminate any tiny error that may have arisen from that quarter.

Ron
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1017 on: May 30, 2009, 09:48:33 PM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 29, 2009, 11:32:59 PM


This deformation stores the energy applied and acts like a spring. This energy has to be released somehow for the guage to be able to reset. In your setup this energy is fed back into the system and therefore cannot be considered output or work done.

Hans von Lieven

Take a pound of butter and place it slowly on a kitchen spring scale. Observe that it weighs one pound. At no time does the spring scale make it weigh any less or any more.

Now have this same pound of butter drop onto the scale. If you are quick then you could estimate that the butter weighed 1 ¼ pounds; but only an estimate because the mass of the scale platform and the fact that the resistance of the spring travel was actually slowing down the butter in its final moments, leads to certain inaccuracies.

How to achieve greater accuracy? Reduce the mass of the scale platform to practically zero and the distance that the falling mass was allowed to travel to practically zero, in its recorded arrest. Voila, a strain gauge load cell.

But does a spring necessarily negate force measurements? No. Take the act of bungee jumping, the force of gravity is known, the persons weight is known and the resilience of the chords is known, to such accuracy that the person can have just his forehead touch the water. One could easily work backwards by observing the stopping point and from that, deduce the person’s weight.

So even If I had used a bungee chord to do my experiment it would not be invalidated on the grounds that it was a spring.

Ron
Logged

hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1018 on: May 30, 2009, 09:58:55 PM »
Do the following experiment. Just suspend a pendulum from the strain guage and let go. You will get the same sort of readings. You cannot tell me the pendulum is doing work.

Hans von Lieven
Logged

i_ron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #1019 on: May 31, 2009, 12:25:05 AM »
Quote from: hansvonlieven on May 30, 2009, 09:58:55 PM
Do the following experiment. Just suspend a pendulum from the strain guage and let go. You will get the same sort of readings. You cannot tell me the pendulum is doing work.

Hans von Lieven

I never said that setup did

Ron
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 63 64 65 66 67 [68] 69 70 71 72 73 ... 304   Go Up
« previous next »